tv Morning Joe MSNBC April 12, 2022 6:00am-7:00am PDT
thomas, other people inside the administration. the idea was if we can't win this legally, with the votes, we're just going to steal it and jesus is on our side if you listen to mark meadows or read his texts. in georgia, i mean, there is this increased intensity because they think, people like trump think they have a god-given right to win that state so deep in the south. not the case anymore, and there's making thissing uplier. >> i think it will get even uglier, joe. georgia is not alone in this. pennsylvania will be another state like georgia with the flipside of it, with the democrats thinking we have a lock on pennsylvania, it's our state, a working-class state. no more. pennsylvania will be huge. whoever would have thought that on the ballot for primaries and the general election that one of the most sought-after offices state by state by state e is
that of secretary of state in those states. you control the voting apparatus. >> all right. it is the top of the hour. we're going to roll into the fourth hour of "morning joe." 9:00 on the east coast, 6:00 a.m. out west. this morning, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskiy offered another brutal and stark depiction of life inside ukraine. while speaking to lithuanian lawmakers, he said mass graves are being uncovered every day and that russian forces are trying to cover up their crimes by killing or deporting civilian witnesses. he said, "there are mass deportations of people from the occupied areas. hundreds of thousands of people have already been deported. they are placed in special filtration camps. documents are taken away from them. they are interrogated and humiliated. it is unknown how many are killed." we've heard about these
filtration camps before from local officials just like last week the u.s. ambassador to the u.n. compared them to nazi concentration camps. this satellite picture reportedly shows the military tents that make up a camp in one russian-controlled ukrainian village. the mayor of mariupol says more than 30,000 residents were taken at gunpoint to a similar camp a few miles away. willie? this morning, there are unconfirmed accusations that russia dropped a poisonous substance on the city of mariupol causing citizens to suffer from respiratory failure. report comes from ukraine's national guard operating in the area. a spokesman for russian-backed separatists in the same area denying the use of chemical weapons. the pentagon says so far it cannot confirm the reports but said if they are true, it would
be, quote, deeply concerning to say the least. british officials say if russia did use chemical weapons, it would be, quote, beyond the pale and would trigger an automatic response. here is britain's armed forces minister speaking to sky news. >> i think it's useful to maintain some ambiguity over exactly what the response would be. but let's be clear, if they are used at all, then president putin should know that automatic possible options are on the table in terms of how the west might respond. >> all right. this morning the mayor of mariupol says the corpses of ukrainian civilians are carpeting the streets of his city. speaking by phone to the associated press, he said, "we are now speaking about thousands. if it is possible to mention such a terrifying number then it is above 10,000. according to our estimates, it's 20,000 plus, unfortunately."
he also said the russian forces have brought in mobile cremation units to dispose of the victims. "the part of the city occupied by the russian army has been closed off and they are collecting these bodies bep understand they are being compiled to hide evidence of their crimes." joe, it can get worse, but every new report that comes in seems to be more sadistic and craven. >> and we of course read of course horrifying -- one horrifying account after another in "the new york times" piece yesterday. the united nations now is focusing, the u.n. security council is focusing on the war's toll on ukraine's women and children. one instance after another instance of rape, of sexual brutality against women, against children, displacement for women
and children, the horrifying story of the mother whose hands were shaking, writing on her young daughter's back in case they got separated. again, women going to get medical treatment and being taken and being raped and not being able to do anything about it. again, this is so -- it's -- mika, it's so extraordinarily sadistic that, again, i understand president zelenskyy talking about the need to negotiate with the russians, the need to negotiate with vladimir putin to alleviate this suffering. but the question remains, the question that hangs out there, regardless of how that peace treaty eventually looks, how does the world ever allow vladimir putin back in to the community of nations? he must forever be an outlaw on the international stage. >> but the key now for the
ukrainians is pushing back against this onslaught, willie. >> yes. we know it's coming. joining us now, nbc news national security analyst clint watts and president and founder of eurasia group, ian bremer. good morning to you both. clint, so a lot of the talk this morning is about russia preparing for something in the east of the country after having failed around kyiv and other places. we have some idea what it might look like given what we're now seeing inside mariupol, where the mayor says there may be as many as 20,000 civilians dead because of the russian assault. what does this preparation look like right now for russia? when do we expect it and how big an invasion are we looking at here? >> yesterday we were talking about the convoy moving in from the north. i want to emphasize the south, mariupol. we're starting to see a new strategy for the russians. dvornikov, the new general, he comes down to this group in crimea, one of the more
successful units that broke out in the early days. they went to kherson and have been blocked by ukrainian military. the ukrainian military has put up a block and are now doing counteroffensives in this area. the russians are building up defensive positions, reorienting and focusing back to the east. separately, mariupol. this is that city of intense devastation, conflicting reports about potential use of chemical weapons. russians have also signaled, essentially telling on themselves, about maybe using chemical weapons over here in the east. more broadly i think what we're seeing is a couple different movements. one, i think we'll see a little today and over the next few weeks a move by the russians to go up back here to zaporizhzhia, that nuclear plant they were at week one and two, but more importantly in the east to focus on luhansk and taking donetsk. that's where i want to go back to. this is that combat power we were talking about yesterday coming down in terms of a convoy, moving to izyum.
sfratly from luhansk they're trying to link up. what you'll see is concentric circles trying to be formed with russia trying to cut off this pocket of ukrainian military that's located right here. separately, i would expect some sort of russia movement up here to the north. each one of these rings, every time they can essentially take a part of this country and cut it off, they encircle part of the ukrainian military, which brings up the question what can the ukrainian military do? they have to redeploy forces quickly. president zelenskyy saying he needs to move from defensive operations to offensive operations. that means weapons, artillery, ammunition. >> clint, what are the other options for the ukrainians? it doesn't seem like they're going to want to go into open spaces and have a classic world war ii-type battle. it certainly doesn't suit their interests. so what can they do in the donbas? >> what they can do, joe, is
reposition quickly. speed is their friend, essentially, in the early days. the weapons they need, they needed them last week. so realizing that these long logistics and supply lines for the nato and the u.s. partners, they're sending more aid in but it takes a long time to get there. they want to reposition forces as quickly as possible here. the more they can do that and get them dug into a defensive status, essentially a mobile defense, establish a defense, then they can go back to the same sort of finding they were focused on in kyiv. if they're in the open space in the east, different from the cities in mariupol and kyiv, they'll get chewed up because the armored forces of the russians will do much better in large, open spaces, and these small towns that dot these highways that connect fromslovy. it's about getting in a position to use the javelins, stingers,
and switchblade drones to hold off these convoys. >> we've talked about hit-and-runs, of women that would be driving their trucks out, become positioned, you know, find a position, wait for russian armor, wait for convoys to come, and hit them and jump back in the truck and go back into kyiv. is there that opportunity here as well? are they going to be able to continue the sort of guerrilla warfare-type battle in the donbas? >> much tougher, joe. i think one of the things that is. here he were in a static defense in kyiv, building up, in the environment. here you're talking about -- this is the battle area here. if you had road networks, there's a lottery area here from slovyansk down. that is essentially rogue corridors in between small towns. think about indiana, kentucky,
ohio, outside the major cities, it has more of that field. that's where long, level plains, farms, you can see in a great distance, when you're in a situation like that and you're outgunned but have lots of manpower, mobile defense the better, which is striking points in the rear. they might look to hit places in the rear of these convoys, or hitting in place where is it consistently causes the russia to have to redeploy forces to other parts of the country or the rear supply or rear area lines. i would not be surprised if you saw the ukrainian military start to use their air and artillery assets in a different way, trying to hit key depots. there were two helicopters that struck inside belgorod last week. that's going after a fuel depot, tying down the armored formations so the ukrainian military can redeploy their own forces to the east. we have to get more creative, nimble, and mobile to make up for the fact that they lack the
weapons in distance with long-range fires and armor. >> clint watts, thank you very much. despite facing international condemnation over the war, president putin predicts russia won't be cut off from the rest of the world. during a visit to eastern russia with belarusian president alexander yushchenko, president putin tried to justify the war claiming it was necessary to protect russian security. it comes a day after putin had a, quote, tough meeting with the austrian chancellor who challenged the russian leader to end the war immediately. ian, i'll take this back to you. putin thinks he will not be isolated. to an extent, economically, right at this moment, he might be right. at what point does the world find a way to disengage itself
from russia so he can be isolated? >> i think that the western world is isolating itself from russia, and i think that that decoupling is permanent. the only major engagement that the advanced industrial democracies still have with russia at this point is oil and gas from russia to europe. the oil is going to be cut off in all likelihood in the coming months. we've already heard from a major of european leaders they're moving in that direction. even the germans said by the end of the year they want it done. gas is about 2% of russian gdp to europe. that's probably going to be cut off too in relatively short order but maybe not this year. the problem is that we're only talking about the rich democracies. when you talk about the rest of the world, they're not on board. so this idea that the international community is going to make russia a pariah, mika, there's no international community. even when they went to the human
rights council they said let's kick russia off of it. the fact is the united states is the only country among the top ten in population in the world that voted in favor of removing russia there, not mexico, not pakistan, not brazil, not indonesia, of course not china or india. that says a hell of a lot. that's not about economic pain. that was just a symbolic vote to say what the russians are doing is beyond the pale. we can't kid ourselves that the united states has the world on our side. what we have is nato on our side. it's much more consolidated and purposeful and mission oriented than it feels before this invasion. and we have a few allies on our side too. they're rich democracies. >> rich democracies, also democracies that run the global economy for the most part, ian. but we're not going to have, though, a "uss missouri" moment at the end of this war, regardless of how well the ukrainians do. it does seem like the world
order is going to be disoriented and unstable. but also, my god, it sounds like we're going back into the '70s and the 1980s, that we're going to have a bipolar world and you're going to have democracies against autocracies. >> i'm not sure that's true. i mean, i agree that the united states is going to be in a new cold war with russia and certainly nato is going to have much more alignment in that regard. but the idea that the world's democracies are together, i'm not sure that's true. i think that the united states is in many ways more powerful than it was 20, 30 years ago. if you look at the role of the u.s. dollar, the role of america in terms of commodities, food, oil, and gas. you look at the situation of u.s. and global finance, countries have to follow the americans when we say this is the way it's going to go.
but as a democracy, i just don't think a lot of countries around the world think that the united states is a political system to be followed. so the idea that the world is going to fragment into democracies versus autocracies and the u.s. is leading the democratic camp, i mean, especially as i look forward to 2024, it's hard to imagine that we're going to be speaking credibly on that front. if we were playing bridge right now, democracy is our weakest suit as the united states. >> i couldn't disagree with you more, but i understand it's a fashionable pose to take. and so you take that pose, i think western democracy over the past month and a half has been revitalized. i think nato has been revitalized. i think it's been a defining moment. i think you have people that were following vladimir putin and the republican party and people who were mindlessly following autocrats that suddenly remember exactly their
democratic impulses. i think you look to poland and you see a country that was slipping in hungary's direction. this has been a designing moment for them. i actually couldn't disagree with you more that democracy is not our strongest suit. this is a war between autocracy and the west. this is -- don't ask me, ask zelenskyy. he will tell you he is willing to fight and die to be associated with the west, to be associated with democracy, to be associated with free markets. >> i don't disagree with anything you just said, joe, but you're talking fundamentally about the europeans. poland today is absolutely a leader of europe. before this invasion, it was seen in many ways as an outlier. i think europe is much stronger today because they're welcoming 5 million ukrainians into their
homes, not into refugee cam e camps, not into tents, literally part of the community, and it's because a democratic ukraine is being invaded by putin for nothing more than the desire to determine their own future and their own government. i take issue with the idea that the americans, that we are going to be consistent in that going forward. it's true that right now democrats and republicans actually think that putin is more of an enemy than their own opponents across the aisle. i'm not sure that that's going to have staying power. i mean, we're not going to see those ukrainian refugees in the united states. for europe, this is an existential threat to democracy. for average american, i would argue this is much more of a threat to ukraine. i worry that the idea that the americans can lead a war of democracies versus autocracies is more challenging going forward. for west as a whole multilaterally, sure.
for the united states as the exceptional, indispensable nation, i think that moment is much more challenging, joe. >> ian, who do you think is guaranteeing democracy in poland? who do you think the poles are looking to to guarantee their freedom? who do you think the lithuanians are looking to guarantee their freedom? who do you think the estonians are looking to to guarantee their freedom? it's not luxembourg. it's the united states of america. >> that's right. >> and they -- when you have u.s. troops in poland being treated like liberators because they certainly remember what it was like the last time moscow started to move on poland, they look to the united states and see those troops -- not to belabor the point, but my god, they look to america despite how
we look at ourselves. they still look at us as the guerin or thes of their freedom and their democracy, do they not? >> i think that's true. the united states has by far the largest military in the world, and the u.s. is standing up and providing enormous support, forward deployment, probably permanent bases in the baltic states, in poland, bulgaria and romania. i also think that despite the fact that the americans have for many administrations now been telling the europeans you are not paying enough for your defense, you think you have this peace dividend but you have to pay attention to national security, we're seeing the germans committed to 2% spend of gdp for military support. we see the finns, the swedes will be joining nato later in the year. we see all of these countries doing much more not because of america but because of putin. so again, my question here is not that the united states is to be questioned militarily. that support is there. but i also remember it wasn't so many years ago when the u.s. had
a president that said that nato was obsolete. i wonder whether it's -- the military strength of the americans isn't going away, but will americans still be politically committed consistently, over time, through different administrations, to leading the world's democracies? when frankly, you know, whoever loses a national election in the united states doesn't believe its own political system is legitimate. that's the challenge and the tension, not that the united states is incapable of leading. we can lead nato. we can lead sanctions globally. that is a military leadership. it's an economic leadership. but is the united states capable of leading the world ideologically in terms of our commitments to our own political principles? are we capable of leading the world as a democracy? can we lead by example in terms of this being a political system that other countries want to
emulate? and i would respectfully suggest, joe, that the answer to that question is shakier than it was 10, 20, or 30 years ago, and much shakier than our ability to continue to lead economically, militarily, technologically. >> it may be a bit more shaky but certainly the answer right now is yes. finland and sweden want to get into nato not because of france, not because of germany, but because of the united states. and they understand when the american president says we will defend every inch of nato territory, they understand their freedom, their democracy rests with them. there is no doubt -- and jonathan lemire, ian does bring up a good point that i'll be the first to admit, that there is a deep unease because of four years of donald trump, because donald trump actually did everything he could to scuttle nato. there is a deep unease that the
united states will still be there four years from now. i would just suggest that over the past, again, the past month and a half, it has been the united states and it has been nato that has been a beacon for vladimir -- for zelenskyy. and he does. he looks to the west, and i'm still of the opinion that the united states is still the leader of the west in every way, including aspirationally our democracy. >> the debate here is an an may noted principle for this biden white house. this president took office suggesting he had to prove this democracies were still able to provide for its citizens, that democracy was the best government out there, and it could compete with rising autocracies across the globe. when he delivered those words in the campaign, it was more aimed
towards china, of course true, but russia has moved to the forefront. that is something that the u.s. is trying to provide is suggesting through its actions with its partners, mika, you know, backing up ukraine, that democracies can still rally together. but far more people live in not democracy than do, and it is going to be the defining rivalry, if you will, of the 21st century. >> jonathan lemire, thank you very much. ian bremer, thank you as well for coming on this morning. coming up, as covid cases rise, one major u.s. city is bringing back its indoor mask mandate. also ahead this hour, steven kornacki took the big board back from clint watts. it's getting ugly. steve joins us ahead. and white house economic adviser jared bernstein reacting to the troubling report on inflation that came out just moments ago. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us with analysis as well.
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change anytime. the area of brooklyn, the d, n, and r trains. report of smoke conditions in the area. police and fire respond. they found multiple people with gunshot wounds, the number unclear. at the moment, no reports of fatalities, there are images of people on the subway platform, being treated and receiving medical care as we speak. now the fire department, and the fbi arrive, multiple unexploded devices there. one person who was wounded told official theys had some sort of shrapnel area, but it's unclear if something exploded already or if that was a ricochet from a gun. willie? joe, just one more piece of information joe and i'll turn it to you. wnbc is reporting several law enforcement sources say a man possibly dressed in clotheding that resembles that worn by mta
workers threw some sort of device and opened fire. some of the wounded people jumped on another train to flee to the next station. obviously, chaos underground in brooklyn right now. >> mass chaos. i was going to ask both of you because you're familiar with the area, what part of brooklyn is this? >> this is sunset park, brooklyn. that's from where they are, a 20- to 30-minute ride into manhattan. this is obviously rush hour is when this would have happened. that train was probably packed with commuters heading into either downtown brooklyn or beyond into lower manhattan. so certainly that would have been a crowded train. reports of some sort of explosion or fire followed by gunshots. we do not, again, repeat, do not have any information from the nypd or fdny in terms of any
fatalities. i anticipate there will be briefings soon. this is the scenario where new york city mayor would normally be on the scene, eric adams, but tested positive for coronavirus. unclear if he could do so to provide a briefing. perhaps the deputy mayor of the police in the hours to come. no arrests or suspects in custody yet. we can see an image here. 4th avenue is a major street in brooklyn. that subway station is busy. three lines run through there. an overwhelming police and fire response right now. >> willie, last week, the end of last week, we had the mayor before he was diagnosed with covid, we had the mayor on set at 30 rock. he was talking about a great concern about the crime that had gripped new york city over the past few years and certainly is one of the great challenges that he's inherited. at the same time, though, this does sound different, doesn't it.
>> yes. >> other than the style of shootings that we've seen, the fact that you had somebody, a shooter that actually opened fire and threw a device, which police officers are saying is an unexploded device, a device that didn't detonate, obviously sounds like something that's taken to a different level and not the sort of crime that we've been reporting on over the past year, year and a half. >> the crime we were talking about last week was mayor adams, swept into office pledging to stop some of these random attacks we see far too many of on the subway that appear someone attacking someone they don't know. clint watts is with us now, former fbi special agent. based on reports from law enforcement and our affiliate wnbc in new york city, law enforcement telling them a person perhaps dressed in an mta uniform opening fire on a crowded rush-hour subway platform in brooklyn and
throwing some kind of device. that's according to law enforcement. >> that's right, willie. not a random act of violence, you would think, talking about uniforms, any sort of explosive device there's premeditation. in terms of the location and timing, when there's a random attack or part of another criminal activity, this is an intermittent pattern, not really specific. this is the busiest time in the busiest city in america on the busiest subway line out to brooklyn. i think there will be key things they try to figure out. it seems we're hearing so far about one attacker. in any case where you have this sort of situation play out, where you have a sudden incident like this happen and anything involving an explosive device, especially nypd, they're very good about trying to expand out, make sure it's not part of a larger plot, essentially. that's where there are multiagency -- you can see the vehicles down there descending
on the scene trying to make sure beyond premeditation, oftentimes if it's a planned attack, which they don't know obviously when they arrive there, are there secondary devices? this is common in a lot of cyberattacks, it would be something like that, or is this part of a lone individual acting by themselves? the motive will be the key and that's where the federal partners will come in and help try to bring out more evidence around the scenario. in new york, they have extensive c ctv so they'll be working quickly to get their hand on the situation, if it's broader in nature or specific to one individual. >> mika, this from "the new york times," their breaking news at 9:16 a.m., several people were shot on the platform of a brooklyn subway station during tuesday morning rush hour. officials said police officers were called to the 36th subway street station where the d, next, and r lines pass through
the sunset park neighborhood around 8:30 a.m. they also received reports of smoke inside the station. the mta said no additional details were available. trains on those lines will be delayed because of the unspecified investigation. and this is on the southern tip of brooklyn, on the water. >> getting a lot of differing reports as this is still very, very fresh and developing. but, again, multiple people shot in the sunset park section of brooklyn right in the middle, smack nb the middle of rush hour. again, in an area where somebody or some people could get maximum impact in terms of the number of victims for sure. jonathan lemire. >> it's a little more on the sunset park, the neighborhood. as i noted earlier, 20-, 30-minute ride into the city
from there, packed with commuters. it's a large latino neighborhood, working class, blue collar, heading toward staten island. it is a diverse neighborhood, very much a new york neighborhood. it's unclear right now, you can see looking here, whole streets have been shut down, the images there, 4th avenue closed, that subway station closed, police setting up a perimeter looking for suspects, as clint said. certainly new york city, even beyond manhattan, lots of surveillance cameras up, lots of cameras up at store fronts and so on. they'll be looking at this footage soon. no reports of any arrests yet. and new images in, looks like a couple of leg injuries, people shot in the legs, people on the subway platform there, no reports of any fatalities at this time. >> clint, just again, taking this through a different dimension than the sort of
shootings and the crime waves we've seen over the past few years, this from wabc, obviously channel 7, the local station in manhattan, at least five people shot or otherwise hit by shrapnel. now a manhunt is under way for a gunman described as wearing a gas mask and an orange construction vest. so, wabc reporting that manhunt is on for a man wearing a gs mask and orange construction vest. clint, what do you take from that? >> it definitely doesn't sound like a random act of violence or an instance where you had criminal activity spill into the subway station. at least from what we know so far, anytime you have detonated devices or undetonated and
shrapnel, that's premeditated. it sounds like they were trying to blend in or at least look into what was going on at that subway station. this essentially, it's just that attack that nypd is always worried about, which is on a major transportation hub. and the subway is something they're always trying to defend deliberately and in a very secure way. i think that's why you see such a swift response here. i would be interested in what other connections they quickly brief out and if there's any police department that's well prepared to handle this, it's nypd. i would expect their intelligence division to have a quick update about who they're looking for and where they're going to proceed in terms of looking for it. but in terms of the scene, i'm sure they're very concerned right now in terms of any undetonated devices. anytime you have this kind of complexity in an attack, you're also worried about secondary advices. it's not unheard of in a situation like premeditation like this for secondary devices
to be set up and, if the shooter is still on the run, we've soon this before in other cities like boston, for example, where when you have shooters on the run, they can commit violence elsewhere. it's a very dangerous situation until you actually have the shooter apprehended. you have to make sure all those part of the plot are apprehended. dynamic time. i'm sure we'll get updates pretty quickly from the nypd. >> willie, this wabc report updated, a possible smoke device was also used. police are looking for as many as four packages initially deemed suspicious and the suspect was described as a blk male, 5'5", 175 to 180 pounds, 5'5", 175 to 180 pounds, and the police right now looking for as many as four packages that they
deem potentially suspicious. >> you see this massive police presence descend there in brooklyn, a number of other subway lines have been shut down. as you can imagine, there's concern that could be a terrorist attack of some kind, so they have to take that into account and rush police throughout the subway system, no small task in this massive city. yes, you described the suspect. another outlet is reporting a number of people shot. we're not going to go with that yet because we don't have that confirmed at nbc. but safe to say multiple people were shot, wnbc posting images of some of those people on the ground on the platform, again, at rush hour, in a very busy station, many of those people on their way throughout brooklyn, to queens, manhattan. you could hardly pick a busier site on a tuesday morning at rush hour. we're getting new information. we'll pass it along as it comes in. but in this case anyway, just at this station, one man they're saying walked in, perhaps
wearing a gas mask, perhaps dressed in a uniform of some kind, dropped some kind of smoke bomb perhaps, detonated device, and began shooting people. now the new york city police department, the fbi, and they're trying to secure the other undetonated device they say are in that subway station. >> that's the fear that one of them could go off. to recap what we know, this is rush hour in brooklyn, a very busy subway station in sunset park, a community of working-class, middle-class neighborhood. the subway station crowded this morning, people trying to get to work in downtown brooklyn or into manhattan. yes, we have the search for at least now the one suspect, no reports of any arrests, no reports thankfully yet of any fatalities. people clearly wounded badly from the shooting, from the explosion. people there have been treated on the subway platform and now
being moved to hospitals. we expect we'll hear from local authorities sooner than later. police or fire department officials, mayor adams currently isolated at gracie mansion after testing positive for the coronavirus earlier this week. motive still of course not known, clint. entirely too soon to speculate. to you, mika. but we're certainly going to be watching this now. we're seeing now heavily armed nypd officers in the neighborhood there down into the subway station. unfortunately, this is a city that has experience with this, but nypd is well prepared to investigate. >> this is terror in sunset park for sure. according to two news outlets, we've got a number, five people shot on the subway platform, so at least up to five people according to a senior law enforcement official telling this to two separate news outlets, working in new york city, and that a possible smoke
device was detonated at a brooklyn subway station. so the smoke device of course used to blind people among other things. there were reports of secondary devices that law enforcement officials are looking for right now. and wabc reporting that a manhunt is under way for a gunman wearing a gas mask as well. so also reports of injuries and possibly a shrapnel injury. so there will be a lot more coming out of law enforcement in terms of what was used here in this attack. >> let's listen in to coverage from our affiliate wnbc. >> i will point out about two avenues to the west of here, the brooklyn nets practice facility over by industry city, a popular area over there. the nets have play-in game
tonight. they are at their training facilities. it's a very, very crowded residential area with a lot of businesses around here and a lot of people who are wondering what's going on and scared by all of this. >> i can imagine, a neighborhood with families you mentioned, joan, so many people going back and forth to take kids to school and where they need to be. we're going to leave that area and come back to the newsroom where news 4's andrew schiff is stand big. this is a very, very busy neighborhood and a busy subway station. >> right. you have to keep in mind that the d-train, the n-train, the r-train, the mta essentially shut down those trains in both directions there as part of the police investigation. keep in mind the time of this incident sort of mid to late rush hour, thousands of people on trains that would then be stuck either in other stations or even in the tunnel. and as a result you're going to have thousands of people who are
late to work, getting text messages, getting anxious information, not knowing what's going on. it's more than just those lines because there are lines that connect with those lines. the b-train, the w-train, the n-train in manhattan, in queens, we're getting reports of people getting stuck in between stations, not knowing if they can take the subway to work. the mta is scrambling, of course, to provide service where they can but also trying to maintain safety. as part of the investigation, it may have involved looking in subway tunnels and looking at trains that were headed for manhattan. that led to even further delay. so right now we don't have a clear picture of the number of trains that may still be stuck at or between stations, but it's an absolute transit mess on top of what appears to be this unfolding tragedy right now as well. very complicated and anxiety-inducing morning commute. >> incredibly complicated. andrew, you mentioned trains stuck in between stations, and
presumably there are a lot of people on those trains when you think about the hour this happened. >> right. not to add this into the mix, too, but you have the added anxiety of covid and massing compliance may not be fantastic right now and you're stuck between train, maybe between stations, rather, for minute after minute after minute, and that also leads to ongoing anxiety. so obviously the transit component is secondary to the violence component that unfolded this morning, but it's still what people are dealing with as they or on their way to work, stuck, and in many cases in between stations, they can't text anybody, have no signal and they're relying on what's probably very limited information from the train operators and the conductors. >> all right. we're looking at potentially a situation where we're dealing with multiple locations. abc news reporting multiple people shot in separate incidents involving a northbound
n-train in brooklyn, new york. this is according to police sources they've spoken to. also seeing reports of injuries going up to the number 13. all these numbers will change. no word on death at this point. but again, multiple people shot in the subway in sunset park in brooklyn. there may be the possibility, and we're hearing reports from abc, that there could be two separate location where is there were attacks happening at the same time. we don't know if this was things that were placed in those locations that blew up and hurt people. we're hearing reports of shrapnel injuries. but we do have confirmed reports of multiple people shot by a weapon and the gunman is on the loose. >> let's bring in commissioner bill bratton, former police commissioner of new york city. mr. commissioner, give us your take on what's going on here. obviously, the facts are changing by the moment. the numbers are going up. the possibility of to two separate attacks.
but at the very least, the one thing that police sources are telling reporters that there was a man wearing a gas mask, 5'5" suspect, that shot -- multiple shootings, and threw devices there, and may be looking at as many as four unexploded devices right now. >> joe, at the moment, there is extraordinary confusion. this is very preliminary information that quite obviously -- i was just on the phone with police sources with 34th and 4th street on the r-line. their information was five people shot and take on the hospitals. but 34th and 4th, evidently, there were two smoke-type devices that had been described, one that detonated, the other that did not. based on the confusion around where these incidents actually
took place, it sounds like they probably took place in a moving train, which might add to some of the confusion as to where this occurred. it requires a shutdown of subway service in the sense of we're already seeing these trains stuck in the tunnel. this is going to be a massive incident and a massive investigation, automatic very preliminary. the nmpgs i'm giving you is of five minutes ago and we've seen that change in the last five minutes. >> commissioner bratton, schools in the area understandably on lockdown because this guy is still on the loose, this suspect. you can imagine the fear inside those buildings and others in the area. given the number of cameras in this city, give than this is the finest police department on earth, bar none, what does the pursuit of this suspect look like right now? how do they find him? >> there's multiple aspects, one dealing with the immediate turmoil involving the height of the rush hour in one of the busiest areas of the city,
brooklyn. but the ripple effects are going to be massive disruption for most of the morning as they try to put together what's happening here. they will also be looking to gather up as much as they can, video video information, eyewitness accounts, there's certainly the issue of just trying to document how many have been injured, and were these devices smoke devices or actually explosive devices? there's reports about shrapnel, which would be certainly a significant type of device and a smoke device, that would basically be a bomb. so early on, it's changing. i'm noticing on your station, you're now reporting 13 injured, that's increased by 8 in the last five minutes since the last information i've had on what's happening. it will take a while to sort this out. everything is very preliminary. but the fbi will be coming in on this, to determine if it's a terrorist act, what was the motivation, if it's a terrorist
act, the complexity of it changes dramatically, because the fbi ends up taking over the investigation. but the nypd is the best prepared police department probably in the world, for dealing with something on this scale of this almost catastrophic nature. and it's fortunate for the city that it has relationships with the federal agencies that's going to require moving this investigation forward rapidly. was it a lone actor, multiple actors? was there smoke, shrapnel? in terms of the injuries, year not sure if there's depths. too late to determine. but this will be a very long day in new york city. commissioner bratton, if this is indeed a dozen or more injured, multiple devices, you know, potentially even more than one location, what does that say to you, drawing upon your obviously
decades of experience, as to what this suspect, who this suspect is, what was he trying to do, what sort of incident is this? you know, how big should we be thinking? >> we have -- when i say we're in the news media, and we're a citizen that naturally has some interest in this issue. we have an idea of what motivation might be. part of the investigative stream going forward will be a scanning of social media, with threats possibly made over social media. were there lines of investigation that might have been underway with the fbi, nypd, and the potential terrorist threat. as you noticed. there have been no notices over the last several days of any increased concern around an issue of terrorism. if that's, in fact, what this is. it's too early to determine. again, we're going to have to wait for authorities to try to put this together and get factual information. concern about shutting down the
subway system is the idea. if there are multiple devices, are there devices on other trains? concern could actually be people packed into those trains stop in subway troubles. and then your evacuation routine back in the '90s. so very complex getting people out of those -- the subway car into a station, slowly, or do you evacuate them in the tunnels for emergency exits? and that's effectively what they're probably trying to determine right now. it is compounded by the covid virus issue. compounded by the fact that this is rush hour in new york city. so you have literally thousands of people on these subway cars, and trying to get them out of those subway cars. the complexity of this is phenomenal. it's enormous. >> and clint watts, as the commissioner said, things are fluid right now, with the information that's changing by the minute, police sources are saying that four of those who were shot were found at the 36th street subway station, in sunset park, and there was another at
the 25th street station in greenwood heights. and so it's not clear whether these incidents took place on the train or in the stations, as they were moving. clint watts? >> that's right. and commissioner bratton, this is clay watts in new york. i was kind of wandering your perspective on, you know, there's been great changes in how new york protects the city, especially under your watch. and in the subway system, when you have a lone actor, or maybe multiple actors in a situation like this. what does new york have that other cities don't have and how do they solve the problem of figuring out how these things are perpetrated. there's a lot of technology they have, but also the police officers is amazing at these sort of things. do y'all rehearse these things? is there technology that enables you to do this and what are the next steps at this subway stop? >> there's no city in america,
probably indeed in the world that's better prepared than new york city to deal with a major incident or event such as this, in multiple locations. just looking at your own screen would explain the massive emergency response, police, fire, health and hospitals. the intense relationship that is held between fbi, special agencies is something we have worked on for years, seamless coordination, both if times of inactivity, but particularly in times like this, in terms of unity of command, who's running the investigation, how do you coordinate multiple streams of the investigation. so there's no city as prepared as this system. even the preliminary information of people being shot versus some reports of shrapnel going back to my comment about were these smoke devices or some type of
incendiary or ied type of device? still too early to tell. and as we're seeing, the injured county is increasing. that injured county will probably continue to increase, just within the anxiety issue of people trapped belowground in those subway cars. >> thank you so much. former nypd commissioner, bill bratton, greatly appreciate your insight. so 13 right now reported injured. hopefully that number doesn't go up. five shot. reports of some possibly being hit by shrapnel. two smoke devices, the commissioner says, from his reports. one of them detonated, another did not. and two subway locations. the injured found in two subway locations right now, across brooklyn. and the question, of course,
that we can't answer right now is whether the shootings took place on separate platforms or whether they took place on the train. and of course, as we reported earlier, a suspect now, 5'5" black man, police estimate between 170 to 180 pounds, is on the loose. but during the attacks, he was wearing a yellow vest. police sources say and a gas mask. >> so we're just approaching the top of the hour. as you can see, we're following a developing situation in new york city, specifically brooklyn. fire personnel finding undetonated devices, multiple people shot. this is at the 36th street subway station in brooklyn, at the height of rush hour, in one of the busiest places in new york city, sunset park in brooklyn. it all began to unfold just shortly before 9:30 eastern
time, at the height of rush hour. a lot of different people affected my this, trying to get to work. police looking for an african-american man, wearing a gas mask at the time, and a construction uniform. they're still looking for him. they're also still looking for other potentially undetonated devices. and the big question now is, where did this all unfold? did it happen on a hugh train or did it happen in multiple locations? were there multiple attacks? wnbc is reporting 13 people have been taken to the hospital so far. there's no word on the extent of their injuries. a very fluid situation for sure. >> and clint watts, we've seen some of the pictures that have been released by multiple media outlets, including wnbc.
a fairly grave scene there. though i will say that many of the injuries we have seen appeared to be leg injuries. so wrap it up for us. >> two parts. they want to eliminate the threat, and that comes down the finding who the shooter is or the shooters. and i think they'll want to get that description out in a lot more details about potential leads. and they want to render the space safe at that subway. it sounds like there might have been one or more devices. they want to make sure that no additional injuries come about from that. those will be the two areas i mentioned they'll focus on in the next 30 minutes to an hour. >> just looking at these pictures that are coming into us of a smoke-filled subway station with people with multiple injuries all over their bodies. really grim, grave scene unfolding in new york city in brooklyn at the 36th street station in sunset park, brooklyn. stay with msnbc all day as we follow this developing story.
much more to come. a lot of questions to be answered. chris jansing and jose diaz-balart pick up the breaking news coverage right now. and we continue to follow breaking news coming out of new york city. the fdny now says multiple people have been injured. and five have been shot at a subway station in brooklyn. emergency officials say they also found several undetonated devices at the station on 36th street in sunset park. this is breaking news this morning. i want to go to frank figliuzzi, who was with us this morning. frank, officials still looking for the person behind this attack. >> yeah, the first order of business, jose, is containment. and containment can't happen until you've captured the suspect or suspects, plural. so that means a manhunt across the city, all hands on deck. nypd very capable, but