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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  April 14, 2022 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT

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>> before we go, one quick update on a story that we covered at the top of the show tonight. as i reported at the top of the show, the san francisco chronicle published a long piece including lots of anonymous interviews with democratic sources both in california and the u.s. senate, all claiming that longtime u. s. senator diane feinstein is no longer fit for the job. mentally, particular terms of her memory, she's two out of it too often to hold the job any longer. very tough piece for senator feinstein. her office vociferously denied this claim, house speaker nancy police the come to our defense. she denied to comment on the story, but since we've been on the air, she apparently has spoken with the paper, the senator has spoken to the editorial board over the phone tonight she said, quote, with
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leaders, i'm not isolated, my attendance is good, i put in the hours, we represent a huge state, some rather puzzled by all of this. she also told the editorial board that as far as the concerns raised in that piece, she's not up to the job anymore, she says no one has raised those concerns to her directly. she's told the paper, no, that conversation has not happened. senator taking on this criticism directly and personally is a big step. watch this space. that's gonna do it for us tonight. mehdi hassan will be here on monday. it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good evening rachel. and i learned a new word tonight and it's one of those where it's even without a dictionary, you just sort of get it in context. and that of course is the word chippy, which --
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well, which sources used in describing stephen miller's eight hours of testimony to the january 6th committee today. it got a little chippy. >> chippy. yeah. there's a whole bunch of british words that are like that that don't have a definition that makes sense in american english. like, chuffed. i was chuffed about that. you don't really need to know what that means to know -- you kind of get it. chippy is the same sort of thing. but who knows, it could be a term of art that you and i are totally misinterpreting. >> i will do everything i can to find a spot in the next hour to use the word chippy, and the way it is intended to be used. i'll see if i can do it. i don't know. >> i use the word caboose in i was told it in a troubling way. so if you try to get in -- just use the word caboose. >> no thank, you know. thank thank you rachel.
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>> thanks, lawrence. >> the stakes could not have been higher in the last presidential election. the rule of law, sanity, democracy itself to name a few, that is some of what was at stake in this country but now we know that the very existence of ukraine was at stake in our last presidential election, and maybe that the life of ukraine's president followed a mere zelenskyy was at stake in our last presidential election. jonathan shape put it here in intelligence or magazine, quote, had 44,000 votes in georgia, arizona, and wisconsin swung the other way, zelenskyy would probably be at this moment be an exile in a russian prison, or dead. is vladimir putin evil? it is a question that no one is really struggling with anymore. the affirmative answer to that question has united everyone from sean hannity to shaun penn.
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everyone except donald trump. two weeks ago on the night that sean penn appeared on this program, he also, appeared on sean hannity's show in a remarkable discussion between two people who disagree on everything except ukraine and vladimir putin. in the interview after sean hannity called vladimir putin evil, sean pen said this -- >> but if there is a god, there will be vengeance beyond all possible comprehension. >> donald trump still cannot bring himself to say anything like that. donald trump does not have the moral clarity of sean pen, or sean hannity. when it comes to vladimir putin.
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two days before, vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine. when he publicly obtained encouragement and the authorization for an invasion in a truly foolish procedure that was televised, donald trump said, quote, there was a television screen, and i said, this is genius. putin declares a big portion of ukraine, of ukraine. putin declares it as independent. oh, that's wonderful. so putin is now saying, it's independent, a large section of ukraine. i said, how smart is that? it is the next day, in response to criticism of the putin genius comment, donald trump said this -- >> trump said, putin is smart! i mean he's taking over a country for $2 worth of sanctions. i'd say that's pretty smart. he's taking over a country, literally a vast, vast location. a great piece of land with a lot of people and just walking
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right in. >> today, vladimir putin admitted that the sanctions are hurting russia saying, quote, the most urgent problem here is the disruption of export logistics but donald trump thought that it was worth $2 worth of sanctions, it was $2 worth of sanctions. and donald trump said vladimir putin was pretty smart to take those $2 worth of sanctions and exchange for taking over a country. what he called a great piece of land. donald trump believed that vladimir putin apparently believed that russian troops would be, quote, walking right in. donald trump had nothing but praise for vladimir putin just walking right into ukraine. sean hannity has publicly said, he's been friends with donald trump or 25 years. and in the trump white house, sean hannity was regarded as the real white house chief of
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staff, the one who never got fired, the one who had full access to donald trump who could have presence over the television screen, so sean hannity would like donald trump to be president again which is one reason why sean hannity has been on a dedicated mission to get donald trump to say that vladimir putin is evil. on march 10th, two full weeks into vladimir putin's invasion that was in of itself a war crime, how did he try to guide donald trump to retract his statements about the invasion being pretty genius and pretty smart, and after a few minutes of warm up conversation, sean hannity tried to give -- the perfect setup for saying the right thing. the perfect setup wasn't good enough. >> you came under some fire
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when you said that vladimir putin is very smart. i think i know you a little bit better than most people in the media, and i think you also recognize he is evil, do you not? >> i was referring to the fact that he said this is an independent nation, talking about ukraine. and i said, this is before there was any attack. he's calling it an independent nation. now, a lot of things are changing, when you look, it doesn't seem to be the same putin i was dealing with. >> you also recognize he's evil, do you not? >> well i was referring to the fact that he -- and he goes on. minutes later, sean hannity a tried again from a slightly different angle. >> keep your friends close and your enemies closer. is that how you viewed vladimir? did you view vladimir putin and
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people like president xi, and kim jong-un, and the iranian mulls as enemies that you needed to keep close? >> i got along with those people, i got along with them well. it does mean that they're good people, it doesn't mean anything other than the fact that i understood them, and perhaps they understood me. >> not only would donald trump not call putin evil that night, but he wouldn't even call him and enemy two weeks into vladimir putin's war. two weeks into vladimir putin killing babies, innocent civilians, constantly in ukraine. sean hannity is not giving up on the dream of another trump presidency, and he apparently has not given up on the dream of getting donald trump to look at vladimir putin through a moral frame. sean hannity tried again last night after forty nine days of vladimir putin's war, 49 days of vladimir putin murdering now what we know to be hundreds of babies. 49 days of vladimir putin targeting hospitals, apartment buildings, trying to murder as
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many ukrainian civilians as possible. weeks after the president -- biden said he was guilty of war crimes. and in the same week the biden said for the first time that what is happening in ukraine is genocide, sean hannity could not get his friend donald trump to use the word evil about vladimir putin, or what vladimir putin is doing in ukraine. >> i asked you the last time you were on whether you think that this is evil in our time, do you believe this is evil in our time? >> i think in 100 years, people are gonna look back and they are going to say, how did we stand back and nato stand back which, in many ways, that calls the [inaudible] >> we did not send, back nato did not stand back, we are supplying ukraine with the weapons they are using to survive. some of those weapons have appeared to have some of the most feared warship in the fleet.
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these weapons have killed soldiers at a higher rate than other combats since world war ii. trump reach for those lies but the united states and nato have been standing back. instead of answering sean hannity's clear question, do you believe this is evil in our time? donald trump refused to answer this country -- we question and he just kept on rambling, and hannity could not give a clear symbol that he needed to answer the question and pointed out to him that he exact asked him the same question. he's not in the business of suppressing donald trump with questions on tv. we have every reason to assume that sean hannity told donald trump directly that he was going to ask him, do you believe this is evil in our time? and perhaps just to remind donald trump that he already told him that he was going to ask him this question in the actual interview, he once again
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told him he was going to ask the question in the interview before he asked the question. he said, i asked you the last time that you are here whether you think this is evil in our time. do you believe this is evil in our time? and donald trump said nothing. he said a couple hundred words that included nato, mercedes-benz, he nato becoming rich, he says something insulting about childhood, but he did not say insulting word about vladimir putin not one word. leading off our discussion tonight former u.s. ambassador to russia, robert mcfaul, who is an msnbc analysts, and peter beinhart who is tonight's making his debut as an msnbc political analyst, he is a professor of journalism and political science at the city university of new york and we are lucky to have him here. ambassador mcfaul, we have a
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right to expect, at this point, real unity of views own what's happening and in ukraine, what vladimir putin is doing there, and how did discuss this in moral terms. and the one person who seems clearly incapable of doing that, who has access to a microphone, is donald trump. >> you are right, lawrence, and don't expect me to explain that. i'm gonna leave that for peter. but i do -- i mean this sincerely, i hope that he is -- and of one, as we see in political science, no one else in the republican party is still appears to this absurd, ridiculous position that he has taken. i would note today that a trump supporter who i know well, my high school debate partner, by the, way is in kyiv today. as a conservative republican, he is and keep today, he is not having any trouble whatsoever calling what he sees as evil. and i hope that other
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republicans will do that so that mr. trump will get with the rest of america because, i don't know a single person anymore that is in his camp except him and i can explain it. i honestly cannot explain it, i'm hoping you guys can. >> peter, it is great to have you in this discussion and pretty much any other discussion we will have on this program. especially because i know in your work you are always seeking the moral frame of whatever the issue is. sometimes that's not hard to find, sometimes there's a struggle and sometimes there are struggles with moral questions and balancing issues inside a moral question. this one seems simple enough for sean hannity to frame for donald trump, but for some reason, for some reason, donald trump will not ever, ever say an insulting word, a negative
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word of any kind, it's not even insulting if you're describing vladimir putin as a war criminal, it's a fact. but he takes his time in those answers to use whole sentences to say nasty things about chuck todd. >> think donald trump worships power. and for donald trump, if you have power, morality doesn't matter. the only thing that matters to donald trump is if you are a winner or loser. if you're a lucky winner, even if you use your power in the most ghastly, horribly of ways, your winner. someone wants to be. like even if putin gets better from power and ends up in the hay, trump will say that he is a loser. he won't be speakin ing moral
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categories because i don't think that trump thinks and moral categories. he only thinks about the glorification of power, and his disdain for weakness. >> ambassador mcfaul, you know vladimir putin better than donald trump, better than you know donald trump, certainly, and better than donald trump does. it sounds like there is an awful lot of similarity between them. it sounds like if someone was trying to get vladimir putin to say something negative about donald trump during the presidency that's horrible. >> that's right, lawrence, there's a long history of that. that's what i call an illiberal international around the world. they are strong men that really love power, as peter just said. they have a sort of conservative, orthodox, nationalist, anti multi lateral anti-lgbt, in the case of putin, and they have for years been interacting with each other and supporting each other. so viktor orban in his hungry, le pen in france, barrage in the uk, and mr. trump, and
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ideologically, those leaders that i just described have a lot more in common with people that believe in democracy and freedom. there are people that believe in democracy and freedom and those countries i just described, but the fight between democracy, the war between democracy is between autocratic putin and democratic ukraine today. but before that there was this liberal international, there were all united. i would hope that this horrible heinous war in ukraine would finally break it up, but so far mr. trump has decided to stick with mr. putin. >> peter, i was struck by jonathan shades point today in new york magazine that if donald trump had won this election, it's entirely possible that president zelenskyy would be dead tonight. but would you imagine the situation in ukraine being tonight if joe biden had not won the presidential election?
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>> i think donald trump's ukraine policy would look a lot like his covid policy, which is it would be a national security policy, just like americas public health with trying to fight covid. but donald trump would do is insert himself in that every day or two, creating utter chaos by saying the foreign policy equivalent of bleach can cure covid. probably, he'd be deeply represent full of the fact that zelenskyy is more popular and he's getting attention, because that's what donald trump in his pathological narcissism cares about the most, and nato would be in chaos. nato would not be able to function in a coherent way. because donald trump would be basically causing utter chaos every day or two just in order to hear himself speak. and yes, that would be very bad for the ukrainians. >> ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you for joining us, and peter been hard for thank you for joining us in the first of
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when i hope many returns in this program. thank you both for starting us off tonight. >> thank you. >> coming up, i was just following orders did not work as a defense for nazi war criminals in nuremberg, and it did not work as a defense today in a washington courtroom for one of the trump supporting criminals who was quickly convicted by a jury. the republican appointed judge in the case called donald trump a charlatan which is way more polite than what the defense called donald trump. that is next. is next the only ev truck that combines: 4-wheel steer a multi-flex midgate and up to a 400-mile range on a full charge and the only way to reserve it is at find your future. find new roads.
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that i think our democracy is in trouble because unfortunately we have charlatans like our former president were doing in, my view, can't really care about democracy by care about power. lucy said that after deciding that january six defendant who was just found guilty in his courtroom would not be allowed to go home while awaiting sentencing. judge walton made it clear that that sentence will include prison time when he said, the inevitable reality is that whether he does time now or does time later, he's got to do time. 38-year-old justin thompson who broke -- where he stole a coat rack and a bottle of bourbon has got to
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do time because his defense just following orders his offensive lawyer told the jury that doesn't thompson was a quote, upon in the sixth game, this assault on our democracy. orchestrated by an evil and a sinister man who is stop and nothing to get his way on january six. you had, frankly, a gangster who is in power making those statements on tape. the prosecutor told the jury that the defendant is quote, an adult, not a child. president trump can hold his hand as he walked down to the capitol. also today, former trump white house senior advisor stephen miller testified to the january six committee. according to other witnesses, stephen miller was present for meetings about overturning the presidential election. and participated in writing the speech that donald trump gave that sent his supporters to attack the capitol. as rachel reported in the last hour, one source says that the eight hour questioning of stephen miller today got chippy at times. stephen miller attempted to
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block the january six committee from obtaining his phone records because the married 36 -year-old father of one child said, he's on a family cell phone plan with his mother. and father. joining us now is ryan riley, justice reporter for nbc news digital who was in the courtroom today in washington. ryan, was this a case where the defendant turned down a possible plea agreement offer in favor of going to trial? >> yeah, you know, mostly these cases, they're offering some sort of plea deal so evidently it wasn't some that he was willing to go along with. and it was a more remarkable trial because over the course of a few days as the jury heard this evidence, there wasn't much -- between the defense and prosecution. they all sort of agreed on all of the fact there were stipulated. it was really hard to object to those facts because, it was
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just so well documented what he did. he's caught on closer cameras, he's closing for a photo with the co-rack that he stole you can see on camera coming out with a bottle of liquor. he text his friend who was there. and then of course the governor was able to obtain some of the cell phone records from uber and from google showing where exactly he was all day. so when he said that he was there for part of rudy giuliani 's speech actually the prosecution was able to say no you are still up and -- coming down an uber during that four silver springs. so we did actually show up until closer to trump's speech. so it was really remarkable how well the government was able to pinpoint exactly where he was during the entirety of this event. >> and in cases like this, it's standard for the defense lawyer to tell the client that look, if you take the plea, you're going to get less time that you will get if you put everyone through a trial. and then get found guilty. and then only that, in this case, the judge actually said
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that given that this witness testified his own defense. the judge actually said, he didn't believe his testimony, thought he wasn't telling the truth under oath. >> yeah, that was a remarkable moment and thinking that he lied. there was one moment during his testimony where the defendant essentially claimed that, oh maybe he grabbed that correct because he was worried it was going to be used as a weapon. but then a few minutes later, of course he's texting with his codefendants saying, oh you can sell this to somebody for $500 outside. so the coat rack was in the courtroom, that was when the key pieces of physical evidence that was sitting in front of jurors all day it was really just remarkable to see again how they just were able to pinpoint exactly what they did. but there wasn't march for him to really go on. this was sort of i think a spaghetti in the walls or the fence, just throwing it out there and hoping that the jury was able to make some sort of political point in saying that they think that trump should be held accountable. but with the prosecution laid out is that, this is an either
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or scenario. you could say that, you think that donald trump is responsible for what happened on january 6th and you can still hold this individual defendant accountable for his actions. this 36-year-old college educated married man who went and stormed the capitol and then sent all these pictures about it. and then tried to make it out like he didn't really have a choice in the matter and that he was just sort of brainwashed and following trump. >> well, this verdict might be the prosecutors get more guilty pleas from defendants who are thinking of taking their chances with a jury trial. in this case. ryan riley, thank you very much for reporting on this. really appreciate it. >> thanks much for having me. >> coming up, half of the most successful brother sister act in the history of american politics, joe biden's campaign manager, his sister valerie, will join us next.
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sworn in as a senator for the fifth time, the noes to his
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sister, valerie, who was his campaign manager in his 1996 senate reelection campaign. just as she had been his campaign manager in every other campaign that he ran. valerie biden was 26 years old when is she ran her brother's first campaign for united states senate. she now says, looking back on my track record, 50 years, seven senate campaigns, one county council race, three presidential elections. i can boil down when i know about how to run a successful campaign in an enduring candidacy into one simple idea. if you win the heart of the voter, the rest will follow. that is from the new book that tells the story of the most successful brother sister act in the history of american politics, the book is growing up biden, a memoir by valerie biden owens. -- as future historians seek to understand the biden family, there will be no better place to start the intimate warm a beautifully written portrait. and john meacham says, this is
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a book about love, laughter and life itself. and joining us now is the campaign managers turned author, valerie biden. thank you very much for joining us for this discussion. i really appreciate it. and i go into this book thinking, well, i know the both i know joe biden i know valerie biden. i didn't know the half of it, i didn't know the 10% of it. this is such a revelation and such a full story. especially a view jumping into things. that you apparently do not know how to do and then do very well. what's the trick of that? >> it is the naivete of youth when i started the campaign with joe. first of all, thank you, lawrence, that was a beautiful introduction and i hope it's tape so i consented to my
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brother. i think that will be important. the reason that we managed is that we didn't know any better. and when i was a young girl, my brother would say, my biden word of honor. my brother took me with him whenever he went. he's three years older than i and he said whatever he could do, i could do better. he said i was smarter than he was, i was kinder than he was, none of which was true. but he put sons confidence in me that he made me believe that if he believed in me that i wanted to work as hard as i could to be the young woman that he thought i could be. so we jumped into this campaign in 1972, we had no one in power, no influence, we had no money
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and we have no structure democratic party. but we had vision hope, passion, creativity and we had the best candidate in the state. and that's how we just continued the journey from when i was a little girl, i was his side kick and he said i running for senate and i thought -- the night could be your campaign manager. and that's what we did. >> i only worked in, was involved into senate campaigns, the last to reelection campaigns of senator senator patrick moynahan which are running campaign manager by his wife liz moynahan. and what i found in that was that it was very valuable to have someone, a family member, someone close to the candidate like that because it was like having the candidate in the room. is that the way it works on the biden campaign's? >> yeah. there are many capable, extremely capable campaign managers and political scientists who are out there who have a ph. d. in running a campaign. i had a ph. d. in joe biden. so with that ph. d. i knew it 99% of the time what his answer would be, i wouldn't get it -- his was by just a bit logic minds was mostly by instinct.
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but we came to the same conclusions. we had the same goal. and it was all about trust. so when i was a campaign manager, there wasn't that i was so brilliant. it meant that i knew my brother, he had complete trust to me and you could go out and do what he did best which is listen to the voters, here where they had to say, talk about his values, see how they can mesh together. and when the election. and he knew that everything back at the ranch at the headquarters was okay. because i had no agenda i wasn't building a resume, i didn't want a new job, i was his sister. and it's about trust in each other from the time we were kids. so he got to do what he did best which was to be the best joe biden there was. >> you also had the advantage of the campaign like that of
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the ability and the power to sharply disagree with the candidate if necessary and know they are still going to be in that job tomorrow. what were the biggest disagreements you ever had with candidate biden? >> they were minor. the goal was always the same. and you're right, i'm his sister so he can't fire me and he can't disown me so i'm there. the only disagreements ever had is sometimes in delivery. always, again, we were raised together, we have the same goals and same ideas. but sometimes i could say, he would say to me, hey val that was a little sharp or did you really want to come on so strong or maybe you should've emphasized us a little bit more. so it was only in degrees, we never had a disagreement on the goal and where we were going. sometimes just in approach. and sometimes i have, we have
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weird since the humor than show and he would say hey val that wasn't really so funny. or i would say to him, joe that was a little sharp and he'd say oh yeah. what because the glory of having your family member that you trust and that you love. is that you are not surrounded by sycophants. and that's a very term -- disservice to be surrounded by sycophants because their job in the reputation depend on it. so you don't want, you want to go tell your boss that you think they're doing this the wrong way, -- so that's the advantage having a brother sister team or a husband and wife or someone that you completely trust. >> there's a passage in your book that in its way describes the stakes in the last presidential campaign. when you are describing the candidate that your brother was running against this time don trump. it says, about donald trump, he had the mind not of a president,
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but of a vengeful dictator. and running against him felt almost degrading. to put this man on the same stage, in the same league, as my brother, to present this guy as an alternative to joe biden, was nauseating, as a sister and a citizen, i was appalled. well, we now know in today's news that apparently he will not be on a presidential stage again. because republicans have pulled out of the very concept of presidential debating. but that indicates that the stakes for you in that election could not have been greater. in who you were trying to keep out of the white house for the next four years. >> yeah, two parts to that debate which i'll get to. in 2020 was the only election that i was not enthusiastic about joe getting in. because i believed and i was not disappointed in my expectations. that the former president would do anything he could to destroy
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my brother. and my family. and to go after them. i knew, i believe that we would be a target. and we were. and i thought, gee, why, joe? and joe said to me, after charlottesville, he said, val, i can't look in the mirror and walk away of who joe biden is because i'm afraid of a bully. remember, joe, when he was a little kid, he started terribly, he couldn't string more than three or four words together. so he knows what it's like to be bullied and to be shunned and to be put in your place. and he said, i am not walking away because of fear. i believe that i have something to say that meshes with the american values of one of returning the sole, rebuilding the middle class and reuniting us.
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and that's just what he did. there is no daylight between the private man and a public person in my brother. and as to the republican national committee. announcing that it's not going to have a debate. well, i'm a campaign manager. and as you know, lawrence, that if you don't want to debate, it's a sign that your scared to debate. so i think it says it all that they're walking away. >> did i answer your question? >> yes you did. and we're at a time, i'm sorry to say, i could go on and on about this book. i have so many more questions. the book is growing up biden, the author is valerie biden owens. thank you very, very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you lawrence. appreciate it. thank. you >> will and coming up. we will talk with a leading military strategist whose
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and all that's left is the purest tasting water. let's compare. a two-stage brita filter stops here. but our five-stage filter doesn't quit. russian navies flagship, the zerowater. we strive for zero. more fearsome piece of floating equipment and valentines morgan 's ukraine has now sunk. this is the ship that famously threatened the ukrainian border guard officers on snake island as the ship approached ukraine
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on the first day of the war. that confrontation has been commemorated now in a postage stamp in ukraine but the rays ukrainian mila middle finger aim towards that ship. this could be the most important sinking of a warships and germany's most fearsome warship, the bismarck, was sunk by the british in 1941. in a crucial turning point in the battle for control of the north atlantic. russians ministry of defence confirm the sinking today in a statement saying, that a fire on the ship was quote caused by the detonation of ammunition. ukraine says it hit the warship with two neptune missiles today the pentagon said it could not confirm exactly what's not that ship. that was named after russia's capital city. a senior defense official told nbc news that all of the russian ships in the black sea have now moved further offshore from where they were operating.
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after british prime minister, boris johnson's visit to kyiv last weekend. president biden said, he's thinking about it. >> well you sensing your officials to ukraine? >> we're making that decision now. thank you. >> who would you send? >> are you ready to go? >> are you? >> yeah. >> for his new york times columns, thomas friedman sent his next guest military expert john he would tell vladimir putin the answer was i would say make peace you fool that was a delivered echo about what a german general phoned from normandy to the commanders in berlin after the successful d-day landings of american and british troops. when a general phone in the devastating used to berlin and was asked, what shall we do, he famously replied, make peace you fools. what else can you do?
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joining us now military strategy expert and former professor at the u.s. naval postgraduate school. he is the author of bits creek, the new challenge of cyber warfare. thank you very much for joining us tonight. in tom friedman's piece and your book you mentioned the three new rules of war. what are they and how are we seeing them in ukraine? >> the first rule is that many and small means fewer large, ukrainians are operating in small squads and the russians are operating in 40 mile long convoys, it makes them vulnerable. the second rule of law is finding beach flanking, it's no longer mass and mohsen turning a flank, it's about being able to look at where forces are and in this wired world, ukrainians are able to get a great deal of russian positions just on people calling in on
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smartphones or looking down from google maps. it's truly the first war of this origin which finding is the key. and the third new rule of law says forming bead surging. you don't need masses of forces if you have small teams armed with smart weapons that can strike from many directions simultaneously, as ukrainians have been doing against these along columns of russian tanks and armored personnel carriers. what we are seeing is really the next face of battle as being portrayed by ukrainian resistance. >> what i was thinking about the sinking of the bismarck today, it was just one ship, but it was a very important ship, very important german ship, and they seem to be in addition to the military value of sinking that ship. at the time, it's before my time of course, this is just from my reading of history, it's there seem to be a
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tremendous morale value and sense of momentum for the allies in the sinking of the bismarck who is very important to winston churchill. just that one ship. is that part of what we are seeing in the sinking of this russian ship? >> absolutely. one bismarck was sunk, the germans became very much cautious about the use of their use of their other surface warships. just as the russians are going to become much more cautious now. and i tend to believe ukrainian account of what happened, it includes a lot of information about how they were using drones to distract the air defenses of the ship. if just one or two missiles were shot at the ship, it's designed to fight against that. so it does look like they were using these -- some of the smart drones they have to distract the air defense and then allow the missiles to go through and hit
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the vessel. whatever happened, in fact, the real matter is that the russian use of sea power is going to become very much more circumspect. the fact that they are moving away from the coast suggest that they have a fear of these missiles to. >> the strategy for russia in eastern ukraine seems to just be to reduce everything to rubble and then what is it if they do that, what is it that russians takeover when they march into that rubble? >> they end up with an empire of rubble, if that's the way they want to do it. i think we do have to be careful in this next phase. the russians always learn from adversity, they learn from it, winter war against the fence fins back in 1939, in 1940. and they learned about it in chechnya when they were defeated the first time there and came back smarter. they are going to be smarter now. the fact, they are is more armored personnel carriers suggest that there's gonna be a lot more infantry this time. and i think ukrainians have to be careful about asking for heavier weapons, tanks, and hundred and 155 millimeter artillery. the heavier they get, the more vulnerable they will be to the russians, the less mobile they will be. i think they should stick with the things that have been working for them. >> professor john arquilla, thank you very much for joining
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us tonight. >> my privilege, lawrence. thank you. >> we will be right back. my eyes feel like a combo of stressed, dry and sandpaper. strypaper? luckily, there's biotrue hydration boost eye drops. biotrue uses naturally inspired ingredients. and no preservatives. try biotrue! you know liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need? like how i customized this scarf? check out this backpack i made for marco. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪
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the 11th hour stephanie ruhle starts now. >> tonight, russia's lead battleship some. ukraine says it fired a missile responsible in a potentially major blow to putin's war. then, he argued trump made him do it, but the jury did not buy it. a new verdict for the january 6th case and what the judge said tonight about the former president and future of our democracy. and what's in the world's elon musk's endgame in his bids by twin or as the 11th hour gets underway on this thursday night. >> good evening once again, i'm stephanie ruhle. as the war on ukraine moves into day 51, there are more