tv Deadline White House MSNBC April 25, 2022 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT
♪♪ ♪♪ r. >> hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. happy monday, the january 6th select committee has dropped some big hints about what it knows about the biggest remaining questions about around the capitol insurrection. in an extraordinary 248-page filing urging the judge to toss out a lawsuit by mark meadows is his attempt to quash the committee subpoena. the panel lays out in detail meadows' is in every single aspect of the donald trump coup
plot. the testimony revealed in the court filing shows that the ex-chief of staff was warned -- warned by a senior secret service official that the possibility of violence breaking out on january 6th. the committee says that meadows own aide, her name is cassidy hutchinson testified in front of them that meadows was told this, quote, we had intel reports saying that there could potentially be violence on the 6th and meadows said, all right. let's talk about it. hutchinson adds this, quote, i'm not sure what he did with that information internally. the committee points out this, quote, despite this and other warnings, president trump urged the attendees at the january 6th rally to march to the capitol to take back your country. hutchinson also testified to this, that meadows and trump's top allies in the house of representatives and that includes jim jordan, paul gosar, matt gaetz, very same crew who spent the last 16 months since january 6th trying to whitewash
the entire insurrection, strategized in meetings in the white house about how to overturn the results of the election with many of them embracing the plan authored and pushed by conservative john eastman that vice president mike pence could stop the certification of the votes on january 6th and that members discussed encouraging protesters to march to the capitol on the 6th. members of the house of representatives. quote, what investigator asked her whether representative scott perry, he's a republican of pennsylvania who is now head of the right-wing house freedom caucus supported the idea sending people to the capitol on january 6th, quote, he did, miss hutchinson testified. also in this bombshell, the filing from the committee evidence that team trump knew that the scheme to set up alternate slates of trump electors, the fake ones which reportedly took place with the support and coordination of top trump officials and some of the
most senior trump campaign officials was unlawful, illegal. from the feeling, quote, the select committee now has testimony from other white house staff that meadows and certain congressmen were advised by white house counsel that efforts to generate false certificates did not comply with the law. the committee noting that, quote, despite that advice the plan moved forward. earlier today, newly revealed text obtained by cnn shed light on the specific chaos of january 6th. they showed this turn. how many of trump's closest allies who peddled the big lie pushed to overturn the results of a free and fair election started to panic. they lost it, when the violence inside it swept the capitol where they worked. these texts have not been independently verified by nbc news and thousands of texts include one from marjorie taylor greene who just a day after the capitol attacks said this, this
is our 1776 moment. on the 6th, she texted mark meadows this. mark, i was just told there's an active shooter on the first floor of the capitol. please tell the president to calm people. this isn't the way to solve anything, end quote. january 17th, days before joe biden's inauguration, greene goes back to floating plans to keep trump in power, texting meadows this, quote, in our private chat with only m several are saying the only way to save our republic is for trump to call for martial law. that's where we start the hour. joining our conversation is new york times congressional reporter luke broadwater whose byline is on the piece of reporting on the filing that we read from. he struck us also here counterintelligence agent and claire mccaskill and former u.s. attorney and deputy assistant attorney general during the
clinton administration our friend harry littman is here. luke, you're written the better piece of the news in it, but i want to start with the newest news which are the actual texts that cnn has released. let me read from some of them because i think it captures as we described it, this panic that set in as the plan came to pass. this is representative barry loudermilk. he write, it's really bad up here on the hill. they've breached the capitol. potus is engaging. thanks, this doesn't help our cause. william timmons, the president needs to stop this asap. meadows writes back. we're doing it. not clear what "it" is. donald trump jr., this is one you go to the mattresses on. evidence he's seen the godfather on, they will try to "f" his entire legacy on this if it gets worse. reince priebus, tell them to go home.
one-time chief of staff mark mulvaney to mark meadows. mark, he needs to stop this now. i can do anything to help? luke broadwater, your thought on -- on what is revelatory and just how much they know that we don't always contemplate in our daily conversations they know. >> yes. so, i mean, what you see there is a moment of the truth coming out, right? so they had played a dangerous game in upon the weeks before january 6th and they had spread the lie of the widespread election fraud and they had angered a whole lot of people about a stolen election and then on january 6th, when people are storming the capitol injuring police officers, people are dieing on the capitol grounds, and they're saying please make it stop. please tell them to call it off.
so for that brief moment in time you saw the truth come out on capitol hill in the ranks of the house republican. what's important to note is the text you also highlighted which was only a couple of weeks later marjorie taylor greene is saying that she's in internal text messages with members of congress and they're devising a plan for martial law. even though she was terrified in the moment when she heard gunshots on the floor or by the floor of the house, you did see a protester get shot and died there, a rioter get shot and died and they're right back to it only weeks later. and so these text messages are revealing for how people react when they do see the truth of what's happening, but they quickly went back to their ways not long after. >> the snafu for some of them may be -- i hope we can still
call them the long arm of the law. >> here's liz cheney making it abundantly clear she knows they knew they were breaking the law. >> the committee has obviously been focused very much and has got a tremendous amount of testimony and documents that i think very clearly demonstrate the extent of the planning and the organization and the objective, and the objective was absolutely to try to stop the count of electoral vote, to try to interfere with that official proceeding and it is absolutely clear that they knew what they were doing was wrong. they knew it was unlawful and they did it anyway. >> again, luke, we don't know who they talked to, but at least one witness who is quoted in this filing, miss hutchinson makes clear that in meadows' case he knew violence had been warned by the secret service whose job it is to protect the president and his family and the vice president and his family so secret service had situational awareness, in theel ips and the
u.s. capitol and they were warned that the fake elector's plot was unlawful and this ties into some of the other evidence. hannity saying i know the general counsel will walk and phil walker and kyle lennig thought trump would be charged that day. the texts also reveal, because i think you had this perfecten capsulation of the problem of kevin mccarthy that he lies all of the time and it's that he got caught telling the truth and this is a perfect way to describe the texts, as well, but the won here might be the knowledge of criminality, no? >> yes. definitely. i mean, well there are a couple of major problems for house republicans and the trump white house on this. the white house counsel's office warns that this plan to use the fake electors is not legally sound. that's very similar to warnings that we saw in earlier filings
where even the architect of the plan john eastman admits it's a violation of federal law. the other thing i think that's really concerning is we've known for some time that house republicans were involved in sort of bogus legal challenges and spreading the big lie and the like, but we -- if i hadn't seen them involved in conversation about marching on the capitol, and if you don't get all those people to move the two miles from the ellipse to the capitol, there is no attack on the capitol. and so -- you can see that both the committee and the departments are very interested in investigating how all of those people got to the capitol that day and who encouraged it and who knew about it, and the very fact that you are telling me a while bunch of hiv people
is very concerning and something that i hadn't seen before, that that the discussion was aware that it had anyone up in that discussion. >> just to follow up on that piece, it was a premeditation and noi it's been worried in this vileness. there isn't anyone more senior than the white house chief of staff. that's it. especially in the trump white house. the record is clear that that person was the only adult in the room when it was a white house chief of staff and a president. what does the -- the premeditation and knowledge of violence ahead of time mean for everyone who had that knowledge? was in possession of the knowledge and has testified to eyewitnesses now who have testified before congress? >> yeah. at least the knowledge. so the first thing from the
filing and it's a terrific filing including the appendices and a lot more there than has been reported to date. meadows is in the middle of everything, however crazy, however completely half baked or quarter baked, but your point really is the right one because once we have knowledge of the violence, he is up to his neck in a potential conspiracy to obstruct the proceedings because what's the point of the violence? it's to delay or hinder and that's exactly what it did. so for that he's in serious hot water and the department, if it shows, can really put the screws to him, and he's also with the elector slates and there's opinions here from the olc that tell him you can't do it. that puts him in the soup for potential conspiracy against the united states. a slightly different crime, 371, but knowing it's unlawful and pursuing it, though he is right in the middle of everything,
however crazy, but now he's really up to his eyebrows in two potential, federal crimes. serious federal crimes that give a lot of time. we know he's susceptible, right? he started to cooperate and backed off at the prospect of a single year in prison and there could be much, much more leverage now brought against him with these new revelations. >> i want to read you a text exchange because it sounds like a confession to what a federal judge in california described as likely felony crimes having been committed by john eastman and donald trump in their conspiracy. this is a text exchange from jim jordan to mark meadows. jordan texts this on january 6, 2021, vice president mike pence is president of the senate should call out all electoral votes that he believes are unconstitutional as no electoral votes at all opinion mark meadows, quote, i have pushed
for this. not sure it's going to happen. is that a confession to doing what that federal judge described as likely felony criminal acts? >> pretty close, and the push for this is in the filing and he goes on stephen engel, the office of legal counsel and engel says we're not in the business of asking the senate what to do. go away, and he pursues it anyway and he clearly knows it's unlawful and all of these things happen and it's all about intents and when you know it's unlawful he's pushing on georgia, we know and by the way, many representatives and scott perry in pennsylvania, we know are now pushing it. that takes it over the line from, you know, spitballing to really potential federal crime. >> and i'm not a lawyer or in law enforcement, but i know a human doesn't put on a bulletproof vest unless they
know something other than a spitball is coming their way. i don't know any reporters who wear bulletproof vests and the only members that we know wore bulletproof vests knew that violence was possible. what do you make of the eventuality that this violence that they knew about and led and stoked and incite, and people lost their lives over there. . >> nicole, it's really concerning and i think thinking back to what all of us watched unfold on january 6th, there was a lot of surprise particularly in the law enforcement community and particularly having worked in areas in and around the capitol during the sheer level of apparent unpreparedness for the violence that occurred and not to cast any particular blame, but it's leveled from the metropolitan police to the capitol police to the fbi and to the secret service there seemed
to be a lack of knowledge about just how severe what happened could be, and what we are finding out that there were people in the white house prior to january 6th and this gentleman who was a detailee, a conversation for another time about whether or not senior law enforcement officials should be political appointee, but setting that aside, brings to the chief of staff intelligence that there might be violence. where did that go? clearly meadows says let's talk about it. was that known to the secret service? was that shared with the metropolitan police department? was it shared with the capitol police? if you think back to the hearings that congress had early on, and the fbi spoke about the norfolk office warning of violence and that's it. so the question is if this was essentially common knowledge in the white house that people as you said were getting bulletproof vests in far enough
in advance to have them and wear them on january 6th, where was the disconnect between the political actors who knew of the violence and the local law enforcement community whose job it was to tell congress. >> this is really important. i just want to make sure that i -- we don't gloss over this. there was some debate after january 6th, some questions asked was it an intel failure and you're right. even after chris wray testified it wasn't necessarily clear what the answer to the question was. it was answered and the intelligence suggested that, violence was possible, and it made its way certainly high enough to get to the white house chief of staff who was a legislative aid and she's a special assistant to the president which is the third most senior rank in the white house and she's on the legislative affairs side and that suggests she was working
the capitol or the members. she testified to the white house chief of staff being told by this detail aide that violence was possible. they all knew. how is it that the only person who sounded the alarm is the d.c. head of homeland security who said he wanted blood banks full for a mass casualty event. where does that information go to die, pete strzok? >> i don't know. some of the people, the secret service, is still a secret service officer and were congress to ask for his testimony and interview he would do it. my understanding is the january 6th committee has a blue team, a group looking at the entire law enforcement response to answer exactly the questions that you're laying out and what is appalling to me, to your point, this made it to the oval office and this made it at a minimum to mark meadows and what he did with it and why he didn't pick up the phone and ask the attorney general, and where he
didn't pick up the phone and talk to the director of the fbi and why he didn't talk to anyone in the law enforcement an rat us and say, i am hearing this, is it serious? have you heard this and what are you doing about it speaks to an utter lack of care in some ways that whatever they were warned was going to happen that they didn't see a need to prevent, minimize or produce and people died. we better have some good answers because things like this just can't happen again. >> people died and hundred of officers were traumatized, claire mccaskill. the testimony four capitol police officers who testified, to quote, mid evil hand to hand combat and those are wounds that you can or can see and every republican should have to answer what they knew and what they knew it. they knewa that what they're doing was illegal in december.
this is hutchinson this aide and cipollone, the white house counsel that they were not legal. you know when they did that? in december. in december! they worked on this illegal scheme from inside the west wing for a month. i mean -- what? i guess it's like congresswoman madeleine dean's comment, my god, was there gambling, but the idea that they were carrying out an illegal plot to overturn election from inside the west wing debases it to this day as this truth spills out. >> there are so many things that are illegal and wrong. there are two buckets here, what is wrong and what is technically illegal and these guys covered the waterfront on both -- on both equations. you called eastman -- you called
him a conservative lawyer. i really think, nicole, we need to update the copy and conservative sends a signal that you respect the rule of law and that you're careful about not crossing any lines. this is a whack a doodle lawyer and not a conservative lawyer and they had to search to find a lawyer that would help them with this. when you have members of congress that are on these calls and then put on body armor for the day's activities, let that sink in for a minute. the people that were on these calls, the people that were texting mark meadows, the people that mark meadows knew about and by the way, mark meadows has three strikes now. first, he knew the false electors were illegal and he pushed it anyway. second, he knew they were going to be instructed to march to the capitol and lied about it and said that that was an ad lib in the president's speech. not true. another lie, and then the guy who is all about voter fraud
committed voter fraud. he's got three strikes and it's time for the justice department to step up to the plate and call him out. >> claire, i want to read you one more piece about the republican members because for me, the meadows is the big headline, but the complicit and the -- and the aggressive action to undermine the results by the lawmakers has been -- we debated whether or not the committee should or should not subpoena it, and it's hard to imagine why they can't. this is from the filing. the investigator asks cassidy hutchinson this question. which members of congress were press not during meetings where the white house's con, was not legally sound as opposed to further research. this is cassidy hutchinson's quote, the only one that jumps
out at me in terms of being illegal, matt gaetz, willie gohmert of texas. why are those three not under subpoena not just from the 1/6 committee, but by doj, claire? >> at some point in time it's going to be really interesting to learn what the strategy has been about subpoenaing members of congress and pulling them in front of the committee. the clock is ticking. they need to do public hearings and allow the american people to digest all of the information they have gathered. these aren't people's opinions. these are facts. these are documents. these are audio recordings and text messages and they need to put them all together and present them to the american people so that they understand the lie terp traited upon them by these bad actors and the time to get a subpoena and i would be
curious to understand why they waited so long to make a decision to subpoena. it is a headscratcher to me. it's a little bit of why the justice department is taking so long. i don't get it. >> it doesn't get easier as elections get closer. >> no one is going anywhere today, when we come back, one judge, has decided that no one, not even donald trump is boofr the law, placing him in contempt of court for documents to the new york attorney general and the chances of him actually complying is something we'll take on next. plus, the world's richest man getting when he liked, acquiring it for $155 million and what it could mean, dulling the line between that and free speech. two top cap, and the
ukrainians as russia continues with its brutal assault today. a live report on what was a very big weekend of news in ukraine. all of those stories and more after "deadline: white house" continues. don't go anywhere. eadline: whit continues. don't go anywhere. this is iowa. we just haven't been properly introduced. say hello to the place where rolling hills meets low bills. where our fields, inside and out, are always growing. and where the fun is just getting started. this is iowa. so, when are you coming to see us? ♪♪ growing up in a little red house, on the edge of a forest comin norway, us? there were three things my family encouraged: kindness, honesty and hard work. over time, i've come to add a fourth: be curious. be curious about the world around us, and then go.
a strategic and sustainable asset... the path is gilded with the potential for rich returns. there was some breaking news today in the ongoing fight between the ex-president and the new york state attorney general leticia james. a judge is holding the former president in contempt of court for failing to turn over subpoena documents to james assessing a fine of $10,000 a day until trump satisfies the requirement.
a lawyer for trump said that they intend to appeal that decision. in a statement the attorney general said this, quote, today, justice prevailed. for years, donald trump has tried to evade the law and stop our lawful investigation into him and his company's financial dealings. today's ruling makes clear no one is above the law. luke broadwater, pete strzok, claire mccaskill and pete littman is still with us. explain the significance of it and the likelihood it results in what the attorney general wants which is document production. >> that is what it's designed to do. this is not a criminal penalty. he holds the key, as it's said. this is an order to coerce compliance and that's why it's a big price tag for a rich guy like trump. i think it's aug rouse that he will be producing and he will be paying, even if he appeals it's clear he just thumbed his nose at them. he doesn't really have any kind of defense. he can try to say $10,000 a day
is too much, but good luck with that, but in any event, whatever the court of appeals does, i don't see how they reverse the contempt finding and of course, the second he pays up and complies with the court order everything starts, but until then, $10,000 a day and i think it will stick, and i think he's going to have to now comply. >> harry, do these go on indefinitely? if he never complies does he owe $10,000 a day indefinitely? what is the endgame here? >> yeah. i mean, do you remember in watergate susan mcdougal eventually going to jail because she would not testify, and there are hypotheticals here, but here's what happens. he could maybe try to reduce the fine, but what happens is he's in contempt and you know, eventually a marshal will come and arrest him in put him in jail if he doesn't comply. even if the price tag goes down he just has to produce, and i
think that means part of what the court's order was about, sitting for the deposition. so, theoretically, he can fold his arms and just stay in jail and pay $10 thousand a day, practically speaking it will in fairly quick order work himself out and he will have to comply. >> claire, do you think that, you know, you've been so candid, and iorder work himself out and will have to comply. >> claire, do you think that, you know, you've been so candid, and i think is it possible that the new york can attorney general can hold him accountable and the mayor doesn't seem to be able to do so. >> keep in mind that al capone can't go to jail for murdering people. he went to jail on something else he did wrong, and someone who doesn't respect the law has
a tendency to break all kind ever laws, and that's really what you're looking at here. i think that this attorney general is staying in her lane and looking at the conduct that she has jurisdiction over opinion she does not have the authority to prosecute him criminally, but she does have the authority to clean up civilly his misconduct in conducting business in her jurisdiction in the state of new york, and i think she's been very focused on that, and frankly, i admire her tenacity that she's stayed with it. obviously, there is going to be something that will come at the end of this, either she's going to charge him or she's not, but i think it's a good sign that the judge is holding his feet to the fire in terms of making the lawyers show something other than boilerplate language that the documents don't exist or there suggest the anything here. good for the judge and good for
her. >> luke, the political piece is so interesting and no one has put it like you have on the show. the politics are relevant here and if you can overturn a free and fair election run by your own government or try to, your party clearly is way beyond financial crimes mattering and the politics of it, but does this drip, drip, drip, does anyone have any fear of being blindsided by anything more or do they file like they were inside the plot to overturn the election and they don't need to see anything else? >> i think what's important is that you now have yet another official body, this time a judge holding someone in the trump administration who -- or the trump allies and this time the president himself in contempt. we know that in the january 6th committee investigation, and the house had voted to hold four different members of the sort of trump entourage in contempt of congress and we are still
waiting on the justice department to act on three of those cases. so you're seeing more and more attempts at accountability when laws are blatantly violated when people refuse to turn over documents, when they refuse to sit for depositions, interviews. so while the political effect of this may be minimal because the republican party is locked so tightly in lockstep with donald trump, there may be ramifications in the courts for people who step outside of the law. >> yeah. pete strzok, the one constant since january 6th for the last 15 months. the 1/6 select committee has only been come existence since mid to late last summer and only functioning and working since last fall and the one constant have been the federal judges before whom the insurrectionists have come, who have all known
about about donald trump's role in stoking the flames. do you think that weighs on the doj and fbi to look at crimes that federal judges say over and over again clearly look like they've taken place? >> well, it certainly points to strategy that the department of justice has to build a case which might encompass trump's behavior and participation in the events surrounding january 6th and the conspiracy charges around the complex figures leading the oathkeepers and the proud boys and those types of the theory of that obstruction goes to things that trump himself might have committed. at the end of the day i think that it doj is taking heart and their theory of the case and they're saying all of these different federal judges saying yes, in fact, this is a valid interpretation of the law and that it could apply not only to trump, and there is reason to see that trump was engaged in a
criminal way in this behavior, but again, these judges are speaking in many evidence with what the preponderance of the evidence is and in some occasion it might have occurred. doj has got to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, meaning a jury unanimously has to believe that in this case, trump violated the law. that's a very different standard and a much higher standard. do i think it will get there? i do. do i think it will take more time? >> i do think it will take more time. >> pete strzok, peter littman, and this is the only joe where we ask you to join us and we block out almost an hour. claire, we're not done with you yet. up next, what to make of elon musk and his $44 billion purchase of twitter. our friend cara swisher helps us make sense of it all. that's next. of it all that's nt.ex hi! need new glasses? get 50% off a complete pair at visionworks! how can you see me squinting? i can't! i'm just telling everyone!...
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in part, free speech is the bedrock of a functioning democracy and twitter is the digital town square where matters vital to the future of humanity are debated. joining our conversation is political white house editor and msnbc contributor sam stein, "the new york times" contributing writer hope of the sway and pivot podcast claire swisher is with us. >> i was trying to understand who elon musk is and was and the i kind of went home and tried to do some homework. now i still wonder who he is, but now i wonder what he's going to do. i think everyone in politics wants to know does trump come back? tell us what that means for the time square as musk describes it. >> it's a private company and he can do whatever he wants and it was a public company and it had to respond to shareholders and people coming forward and it has a business that's not very strong and it has an issue around its stock which was quite
flat since it went public and it's always struggled to make money especially in the shadow of facebook. now it's got a private owner that does whatever he wants and therefore it will be whatever he wants in that regard and the other shareholders of which are few and banks and owners which will be a funding of this thing. >> as you sift through free speech and do you expect donald trump and election lies to be back on twitter by this time tomorrow? >> no. no. you know, let's sort them out. donald trump, i think he will let him back on twitter and he talks about time-outs for people who make trouble and not permanent bans and right after january 6th when trump was thrown off for inciting violence and we should still listen to him even if he did this. he didn't assume it was enciting violence like people did at the
time including jack dorsey and it will depend on what he wants to do. he wants people to argue with each other and he probably will. the other stiff, i don't know, this will be a tough thing for elon to deal with because a lot of things are different from other things and so moderation on this platform is very, very difficult, and you can't have a public town square that's chaos at the same time and that will be bad for business. >> some of the conversations we've had over how facebook allowed itself to be hijacked by russian disinformation has centered around -- you've helped us understand the structural impediments to keeping the junk out and it's a lack of regulation. do you think the fact that the right is so enamored by elon musk means that if they control congress there may never be any regulation on social mead why? >> i don't know about that. i think they have issues around it, and there's a lot about bipartisan agreement and it gets sucked up around the axle of free speech and a lot of it is on data and data privacy and
what you should know about with consent and consolidation and power and donald trump will check industry at the same time that democrats are and you see a lot of bipartisanship about this issue and it just depends on what. when you move away from the first amendment and free speech debate there's not a lot that will happen because the government can't regulate free speech and you get to the data issues which are much more important in my mind and they make you understand it's about power and not necessarily about anything else and that's where i tend to focus. >> what should people know about elon musk's wildly successful previous endeavors? what is the potential good he does at twitter? >> he does big shots of things, right? cars and whatever else is making a dating service or some dumb app, he's doing cars, autonomous cars and electric cars because he believes in the climate crisis and he has been doing amazing things in space, landing
a rocket on the platform in the middle of the ocean, big deal and he has defense contracts with the government, and even the boring company that is doing tunnelling to deal with traffic and these are big ideas and even as you see it as a juvenile on twitter and that's where he does it and does memes and dumb jokes and he did one this weekend that was tasteless and he's doing big ideas and i hate to call him tony stark and you know how that character is kind of that way, he can be really crazy and yet also do amazing things? that's kind of what he is and a lot of people don't like him for some of his tweets and what he says and i just don't know what to expect from him and neither should the right. he's known by nobody. >> the naacp statement today derek johnson said this, mr.
musk, free speech is wonderful. hate speech is unacceptable. disinformation and misinformation and hate speech have no place on twitter. do not allow 45 to return to the platform. do not allow twitter to become a petrie dish, and protecting our democracy is of utmost importance as the midterm elections and lives are at risk and so is american democracy. there's a lot of concern and at least today judging by twitter a lot more concern on the left of the ideological spectrum than the right. >> well, i think claire is probably right. she knows him better, obviously than i do, i've met with him and i was involved in trying to move our rockets over to an american trial as we were using russian rockets at the pentagon and for our defense strategy in america and i always thought that was dangerous and this is a weird guy, and it's going to be a private company, and i mean, i
really do think if the right thinks he's going to be their bestie they may be in for a rough ride here. i think he will call them out, probably in some ways just like he has called out the left in many ways. at the end of the day there is a guy who named his child a mathematical formula. i mean -- and it's not a really profitable business, and he's put a lot of money in this, and so has some big banks that are going to have to suffer the consequences if he takes us on some kind of bizarre ride with what he allows on this platform. i know i am -- i am confused about what to do. we all use twitter. do i stop or do i wait and see what happens? but if it gets nuts i think he'll lose a lot of people and they'll be moving over to other platforms that have become very popular like tiktok and instagram and so forth. >> we have to take a break and
sam, this is what i want to ask you. donald trump made a new sandbox when he was kicked out of the sandbox. he created truth social and i'll ask you about it after the quick break. break. way day, wayfair's biggest sale of the year is bigger than ever! for two days only, april 27th and 28th, get the lowest prices on thousands of items for your home. shop outdoor furniture up to 65% off... rugs up to 80% off... and lighting up to 65% off... plus, get bonus savings with a wayfair credit card
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he's posted there one time. and he says he won't go back to twitter, but he's not really known for his ability to resist temptation of things he loves, like tweeting. what do you think? >> how could you say that about donald trump? that's blasphemous. no, i fully expect that he will not stand by his pledge today to not go back to twitter. not just that he can't resist interjecting himself into the everyday news cycle, but it's also because the platform for him is a huge political tool to be in front of hundreds of -- tens of millions of people is no small matter. it was a way that he would direct news cycles, for instance, get out his message, and i think if you're just looking at it from a strictly political lens, why would you deprive yourself of a tool like that? and of course, finally, the fact remains that truth social is, at least at this juncture, a
disaster. i think it's objectively been a huge failure for him, and this was supposed to be an outlet that he was going to launch that would be the sort of maga version of twitter to which tons of his followers would flock, but the site, as we've reported, is plagued by technical snafus, there's internal discord. at least three top executives have already left. there's virtually no one of stature from his world, from his party and universe, who is posting with regularity there, and the fact is, he's only posted once. so yeah, he can act like this is the future, that this is where he is going to invest his time and energy, but i think when push comes to shove, especially as he starts really stepping back on to the political scene, the idea that he would try to recreate the wheel when the wheel already exists for him on twitter is folly. >> kara, do we know anything about how elon musk views disinformation outside the highly polarized debate about disinformation in this country?
i mean, it breaks down along right-left polarities here, but in ukraine, i mean, it's led to the pretext for a war on the part of russia and lies about what the soldiers are doing there. the soldiers think they're denazifying a country that has a jewish president. it can lead to war. what are elon musk's more serious views about disinformation and democracy? >> well, you know, i think he has different views. he's very supportive of zelenskyy and what's happening in ukraine. he sent star link vehicles to be able to -- for people to broadcast. i think one of the things that's important to think about here is twitter's real small. as much as you think it's really big here in washington and everywhere else, it's not a big company. facebook is a big company. so, you know, you have to think about its size. now, because it's so high-profile, people always wondered why the business is so small and the stock is so low, but with elon there, it could have a big boom, i suppose, because it calls a lot of attention. he's used it himself for marketing a lot of his companies and himself, and so we'll see where it goes, but i think this
is not what everything pivots on. it's what everything here in washington and the media and hollywood maybe pivots on. about truth social, you can stick a fork in it. it's done. like, really. come on. he's going back on this thing. it's a terrible start-up run by people who have no ability to run a start-up, and it will, just like a lot of these other social sites, it's very hard too compete these days. i mean, it's just -- it's so funny, we all act as if it's something. it's just not. it's not. i could start a social network that would be more popular at this point, not that i will. i like twitter. >> i'll waiver that. my notes were in front of me, i didn't know what it was called. claire, on this bigger question, i take kara's point that twitter is basically us talking to each other about each other and ourselves. but there are big, big, big consequential, tectonic political plates in the geopolitical spaces that turn around disinformation. the power of disinformation helps vladimir putin keep a grip on power in his own country.
what are your sort of questions as elon musk takes the reins of this, in kara's words, small piece of the information universe? >> i think the point was made, i think, and it's one that deserves repeating, this is a really hard job. moderating free speech around issues of disinformation sounds good in the abstract and practicality, it's very, very difficult to do, and so i think he is really going to have a, you know, he obviously is not afraid of controversy. i think his owning this company will be the most controversial thing he has done for a lot of different reasons, and i want to get this in on truth social. i want some journalist out there to look into where'd the money go that was raised for truth social? i think it was a spac, and i, for the life of me, would like to know who put real money in that and what happened to all of
it. devin nunes put it in a bank account somewhere? you know, it is fascinating to me what a failure it was. this is supposedly by the guy who knows business, right? this amazing businessman was going to start this company and was going to be great, and it's just been an embarrassment for trump, like most of his businesses ended up being. >> all the best people, isn't that what he promised? and then he hired devin nunes. sam stein, kara swisher, claire mccaskill, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. grateful to all of you. up next for us, how secretary of defense austin and secretary of state blinken made it into ukraine safely and how their high stakes visit was received. that's next. don't go anywhere. was received that'sex nt. don't go anywhere. y, wayfair's biggest sale of the year is bigger than ever! for two days only, april 27th and 28th, get the lowest prices on thousands of items for your home. shop outdoor furniture up to 65% off... rugs up to 80% off... and lighting up to 65% off... plus, get bonus savings with a wayfair credit card and free shipping on everything!
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around a lot longer than vladimir putin's on the scene. and our support for ukraine going forward will continue. it will continue until we see final success. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york, midnight in kyiv where this weekend u.s. secretary of state tony blinken, the man you saw right there, and u.s. defense secretary lloyd austin met with president zelenskyy in ukraine's capital. it is the highest level american visit since the war began two months ago. the secretaries of defense and state met with zelenskyy and other ukrainian officials for three hours. they emphasized america's steadfast commitment to supporting ukraine in this war, and they made some announcements, which include more security aid, including more than $300 million in military financing, the return of u.s. diplomats to ukraine sometime this week. those diplomats had been evacuated to poland before the war began. and the nomination of bridget brink as u.s. ambassador to ukraine. the u.s. has not had a senate confirmed ambassador to ukraine since ambassador marie
yovanovitch was fired by the exapproximate the in 2019. as russia its continues its brutal assault on ukraine, earlier today, the head of ukraine's national rail company said at least five railway stations in central and western ukraine came under fire, causing delays and tragically, he says, there were victims. we don't know how many at this time or how severe their injuries are. over in russia, large fires broke out at multiple oil facilities in a region that's about 100 miles from the border with ukraine. no one was injured that we know of, but russian officials are investigating the cause of the incidents. meanwhile, the last stand of ukrainians in the city of mariupol continues to hold as they are still in control of that huge steel plant. ukraine's deputy prime minister said that despite moscow's claims, there are no humanitarian corridors from that plant today. you recall there are civilians in there too. that's where we start the hour. joining us now is our friend, nbc news correspondent cal perry, live in kyiv.
last time we spoke to you, cal, you were in leave. we're glad you rotated out for a little bit. but you're back. what is the most striking difference to your eyes? >> reporter: well, in the city of kyiv, the most striking difference is that it seems like there's a new normal here. i was walking around on easter sunday and i was coming across soldiers who had come from the front who were headed to church services or had come to the city to visit their family members and then they were going to head directly back to the front and as you move around this city, and we heard them calling it the battle of kyiv, that's accurate. the destruction is incredibly widespread. you don't have to go looking for it. there are tanks that reach the outskirts of this city that were blown in place that still remain there. and i feel like we've broken the word "extraordinary" because while all this is going on, while i'm spending my first weekend in kyiv, you have the secretaries of defense and state leaving joint base andrews separately to try to keep this
visit under wraps, and while that's happening here on saturday night, the ukrainian president is giving a press conference in a subway station and announces that these two gentlemen are coming so when they land in poland, they have to make the decision, should we still make that journey? and they do. they get on the train. it's 12 hours on the train. they're coming here on easter sunday, all the while france is basically having a referendum in many ways on this war. they arrive, they go to the presidential palace, which is still standing. they meet with zelenskyy, basically in the open. everybody knows they're here. we can't report it because it's an embargo, and the tone has shifted. the tone has shifted now to, let's cause and inflict as much damage on russian forces as we can now, because the tide of this war has turned. and so what we have been reporting for a long time is now being openly said. take a listen to the u.s. secretary of defense on his view of how u.s. foreign policy is going to -- is going to be advanced by hurting the
russians. take a listen. >> we want to see ukraine remain a sovereign country, a democratic country, able to protect its sovereign territory. we want to see russia weakened to the degree that it can't do the kinds of things that it has done in invading ukraine. so, it has already lost a lot of military capability and a lot of its troops, quite frankly, and we want to see them not have the capability to very quickly reproduce that capability. >> reporter: and shortly after secretary austin said that, we had the united kingdom's defense secretary in parliament today in london saying that he estimates 15,000 russian troops have been killed. we don't know how many ukrainian troops have been killed. but we're starting to now see a picture of a war that has turned, at least on the battlefield, and when you talk about some of the weapons that have arrived here, we heard from the ukrainian defense secretary, saying these howitzers, this
long-term, long-range, excuse me, artillery, artillery that can hit 40 kilometers into russian lines could change the tide of the war on the eastern front. all of which is a long way of saying to you, nicole, that u.s. foreign policy does no longer begin at, we urge caution on both sides, at least in this conflict, a conflict on which one side, you have a burgeoning democracy, on the other side, you have russia. you now have the united states openly saying, we want to arm this country as best we can to inflict casualties of the russian side. $3.7 billion of military aid just from the united states since the war began, and in the past week alone, 27 european nations have given $1 billion of further aid. it is unprecedented, nicole. >> well, i love that you -- this is why we missed you so much, and i'm glad you're safe, but i'm glad to have your reporting and your observations back there for the -- for all of our benefit, but what you've encapsulated, i think, is this moment in the war, and we should be really, really blunt about this.
two months ago, nobody thought that you would be standing in a free kyiv saying ukraine is winning. and by a lot so far. that's not to take -- you're very close to bucha, i believe, which is where some of the most heinous atrocities that we've witnessed with our own eyes took place and as you said, the signs of russia's brutality and the brutality of the war that has been waged so far are everywhere. but it seems -- and i want your thoughts on this. if you had to cause and effect, i mean, the result is this unprecedented visit, and you're right, i used to put together press pools for trips into combat zones by presidents and they're so secretive. the reporters can't tell their families where they're going until they're back out of a conflict air space, you know, over european air space or somewhere safe, so the fact that zelenskyy, you know, talked about the visit and then it happened anyway is such a sign of how secure he had to be able to guarantee that part of the country was. but how much is the ukrainian
military success and zelenskyy's strength as a wartime leader causing the u.s. foreign policy position? >> reporter: so, i think that came first, right? i think the military successes came first and then the americans realized that there was further advantage here to continuing to arm and to actually increase the pace at which those arms were coming and then make those arms more and more lethal as time goes on and start talking about it publicly as time goes on. i remember being in baghdad when president bush, whom, of course, you worked for, come to baghdad and we could see air force one on the airport, on the tarmac, and we couldn't report that he was there. so, it's completely bizarre yesterday, standing here, knowing that the defense secretary and the secretary of state were here, not being able to talk about it until they got out, but then as soon as they're out, everybody knew they were here, we could sort of talk about that. it seems like that was led by president zelenskyy. again, he gives this press conference saturday night in a subway station with trains arriving around him. he is so highly producing this
war that it is forcing world leaders -- and these are the highest diplomats that america has. it almost forced them to follow his lead. as for the military side here, this is a war, and i think general austin was very up front about that. tomorrow, we're going to head to a town nearby in which there are mass graves still being discovered. we're going to try to meet with a unit of ukrainian soldiers at some point this week that are trying to catalog and find the thousands of dead russian soldiers and they're telling us over the phone, russia doesn't want them back. so you have a brutality to every war that we're seeing here, of course, in ukraine, but that brutality of that war seems to be embraced by american officials in a way that i have never seen before, that i don't think we've seen since world war ii, where it seems so clear to american officials that they are ethically on the correct side of this war that there is no -- that there is no harm to be done by forcing putin to a more difficult negotiating position. that seems to be sort of the headline of this visit, nicole.
>> cal perry, your reporting comes first but whatever you learn tomorrow, we'd always love to hear about it and showcase it here and talk to you about it, so please stay safe. please come back, and thank you for your reporting today. >> thank you, nicole. let's bring in our good friend, igor nobikov, former advisor to president zelenskyy. i'll ask you the same question that i asked my colleague. i mean, two months ago, it was not known how -- or i guess it was not known to the west. i imagine you feel like you had a better sense, and your president had a better sense of how well trained the ukrainian military was, but what weapons you would ultimately have was not known. that was a campaign, a daily, an hourly effort by your president. how much do you feel like ukrainian success on the battlefield, in the face of the brutality that you and i have talked about since the first days, how has that shaped the world's response to ukraine? >> it's really interesting, because i was discussing it with my wife only yesterday, how one
man actually changed the course of history. if you think about it. because you carefully study what the western allies were saying in the run-up to this war, everyone was saying, like, look, i mean, we feel sorry for ukraine, we're going to try and help ukraine, we're going to arm the insurgents, there will be some form of insurgence, but at the end of the day, kyiv will fall within 96 hours or 48 hours or something like that and you know, it's a david and goliath. there's no chance. and then one man just decided to stay in kyiv when everyone was urging him to leave. like, look, and that changed the course for everyone, because first of all, it motivated our armed forces to fight twice as hard for their homeland. i mean, it motivated people to resist. it's -- it just led to a very special place, so after that, the victories came, and obviously, the victories were the determinant factor when the
world actually started to believe that we can win this one. so, yeah, i think it's the bravery and the results and now we're at a place where, you know, anything is possible. >> igor, that is such an interesting way of looking at this. one man's decision to stay in kyiv, to say, i'm not leaving. tell me how that affected the result, which was that russia lost the battle for kyiv. >> well, i had a conversation a few days ago with the president's office, and president zelenskyy did an interview that is not public just yet, and there was all these people who were in the room asking for their impressions, and look, one of the things that the president wants to make explicitly clear to everyone, including the journalists, is that nobody's won this war yet. the war isn't over. and you know, because everyone is so surprised and so happy with how things are going that people seem to forget that the war is still happening.
only a few days ago, 3-month-old baby with her mother was killed in odesa while her husband and the father, while he was out shopping for groceries. and he literally -- i mean, i know people who know that family, and i've heard that story, and it's incredibly horrific. the guy arrived at his home like ten minutes later and there was no home. there was no flat. he saw the body of his wife, of his mother-in-law and then a couple of hours later, they found the body of a 3-month-old daughter that was only a month old when the war started, so look, it's not over by a mile, and i think president putin at the moment is at his most dangerous, and there's a major reason for that. he's been wounded. his image, his branding has been wounded. we've destroyed the myth of the mighty russian armed forces. the fact that russia's economy
is strong and prepared for western sanctions has been debunked. it seems like only in russia, their marketing department is all that's operational over the last ten years because apart from rebranding his army and rebranding whatever super jets he had, they haven't done anything else. and that makes putin more dangerous because he'll be more tempted to use weapons of mass destruction to at least score some victories because if he doesn't win something, his regime is in trouble. let's face the facts. that's why, for example, i think this trip by two u.s. secretaries to ukraine was heroic, because look, russia used cruise missiles to attack our railway infrastructure only yesterday, and we have had our railway infrastructure for two months. so you know, it's not a secret, they've arrived by train. so, look, ask yourself one simple question.
how trustworthy putin is. i mean, if you have secretary blinken or secretary austin standing in an open field in front of the russian armed forces, would you trust them not to harm them? would you trust the russians not to harm your secretary of state or secretary of defense? >> i don't think -- right. >> so, i think that -- >> no, go ahead. >> yeah, i do think that heroism, they've arrived at a very dangerous time into a country that's fighting a war with a country that's saying, you are the main enemy. the u.s. is the main enemy. so you know, it's definitely not a situation to feel safe about yourself. and yet again, i mean, that's the irony, because like, those trips are important because seeing is believing. that's one thing. and then there's symbolism in those trips as well, but what's also very important is the fact that after the dealings of certain rudy giuliani and what followed next, i mean, phone
conversations aren't what they used to be, so there's face-to-face meetings are paramount, especially at the time of war. >> and i know from some interviews that i think you and i have talked about an interview with "the atlantic," president zelenskyy talks about asking for weapons so many times, he feels like bill murray in groundhog day. obviously in the same room, you can be super granular about what you need, how many you need, and you can get up and show those officials on a map. what is your sense of how much of that happened or how much of this was the symbolism you're talking about, that no matter the risks and they were extreme -- and i guess two-part question. i also want you to answer whether you think the five strikes on railway infrastructure were to send that message that putin could have targeted the u.s. secretaries of defense and state had he wanted to. >> well, russians do love their symbolism, and i think that was exactly the case.
by the way, we know at the moment of one person, unfortunately, dead from those strikes, and at least five people wounded, but there will be more wounded. so i think, yeah, it was definitely a message from russia. and there were things discussed in that meeting that are part of the conversation and this ongoing partnership to end this war. that's as far as i can go. but look, i mean, with russia, it's all about symbolism. as i said, look, their country -- the only thing keeping their superpower hopes alive is the marketing department, the propaganda department, and that's where it gets actually funny sometimes, because they only announced today, i think, they've arrested some ukrainians who were planning an assassination attempt of one of the top kremlin propagandists and it was really funny because they couldn't even fake it properly, so what they found when they
arrested those people were obviously guns because to kill one person, you need lots of guns and ammo and molotov cocktails because that's what you do if you're ukrainian, right? you want to assassinate one person in moscow, you need lots of molotov cocktails but you know what gave them away? the molotov cocktails were in plastic bottles, and trust me, as a ukrainian, i can tell you, if there's one thing we know how to make, it's a molotov cocktail, and you don't use plastic bottles. you use glass bottles for that. so, yeah, that's russia for you. and by the way, don't let me go without a positive story, because i have a special one today. >> go. >> i've actually asked for a picture to be shown. if you have that picture, can you show it now? >> there we go. >> yeah. if you look -- yeah. if you look at the screen, so, a lot of people are returning to their homes in the vicinity of kyiv at the moment and they're finding what the russians who are occupying their flats and houses left them.
this one tops my list. so, what you see here is a special kind of liquor that russian soldiers who have never seen liquor -- proper, like, western liquor, were enjoying on the night of. there's a small problem with this italian liquor. it's not liquor. it's olive oil. so they were actually drinking olive oil from wine glasses and that comes from a country that was stealing toilets from houses. on the more serious note, i mean, like, that's unfortunately what we're dealing with. i mean, the myth of russia and the myth of their economic and military superpower is being destroyed. we're fighting barbarians who have never seen a toilet before, who drink olive oil thinking it's an italian liquor. they're using wood to cook in the middle of an apartment because they don't know how to switch a stove on.
so that's what we're finding. and you know, that country, what putin is doing now, he's trying to form that public opinion that they're the victims, they're the righteous ones fighting against everyone in the world, and here's a scary statistic for you. 40% of the russian population, according to a recent poll, support a preemptive nuclear strike. so look, this war isn't over. we're entering a very dangerous and very turbulent period where we have to be as united as we can get, and you know, if we can achieve that result, i mean, then there will be that coveted victory, and then we'll do the dance. >> igor novykov, you always make us smarter, you always make us laugh. thank you for spending time with us today. >> thank you. when we come back, the horror and the brutality of the russian invasion of ukraine, the biden administration has launched a new way for americans
to help ukrainians find refuge. we'll tell you about it next. plus french president emmanuel macron's victory over far-right challenger marine le pen comes as a huge relief to the west and it's also being seen as a potential good sign for president joe biden in a potential rematch with donald trump. we'll explain. later, the former majority council during the disgraced ex-president's first impeachment weighs in on the news today that a judge in new york is holding trump in contempt. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. t. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. exploring the heart of historic europe with viking, you'll get closer to iconic landmarks, to local life and legendary treasures as you sail onboard our patented, award-winning viking longships. you'll enjoy many extras, including wi-fi, cultural enrichment from ship to shore and engaging excursions. viking - voted number one river cruise line by condé nast readers. learn more at viking.com.
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among the ways the biden administration is trying to help the ukrainians who are fleeing their country amid the war with russia is a new program launching today called uniting for ukraine. u.s. citizens through the department of homeland security website can now go on to it and sponsor refugees. obviously, there are background checks and various screenings in order to qualify but if selected, american families could very soon be welcoming ukrainians to live and work here for up to two years. joining our conversation, katty kay, bbc news, u.s. special correspondent, also an msnbc contributor. and here with us at the table, bobby ghosh, bloomberg opinion columnist covering foreign affairs. katty, bobby and i were talking in the break about what igor and i were just talking about, that getting to not just any cabinet officials and not to say that any posts are better than others, but having america's secretary of defense and secretary of state travel to kyiv amid ongoing violence all across the country, literally
from one side to the other, and north and south, is a huge deal. just talk about sort of the totality of the u.s. effort, including this program to tap into what is, i think, pretty widespread support among the american people to help the ukrainian people. >> yeah, i think having -- welcoming more ukrainian refugees is going to be very welcome. we have had countries close to ukraine taking a disproportionate number, obviously, because unlike refugees from other countries, the refugees who are leaving ukraine are really hoping they can go back very soon, so they don't want to go too far. it's not like the afghan refugees who left last summer who come to america and realize they're going to be staying here for very long. so you just don't have that big a number of ukrainians who want to come to the united states. they'd rather stay geographically closer, but i think having refugees come to your country changes your
relationship with the conflict. it's one thing to know that it's happening 5,000 miles away in europe. it's another to have people bringing personal stories of loss and horror and it personalizes a conflict. i know because we have had an afghan refugees living in our house for a while and it makes you feel more connected and i think for americans to have that experience of having ukrainian refugees come would make them feel more connected kind of emotionally in a way that europeans are. there's been a huge amount of support for the way that america has led this mission. there's been some complaints from zelenskyy, downwards, very publicly, that he wanted more weapons, he wanted them bigger, and i know from conversations with the pentagon and the white house that that's caused them some frustration, but basically, they say that behind the scenes, the ukrainens are very grateful for everything they're getting, particularly now that they're getting the bigger, heavier artillery they're getting from the u.s. >> it's interesting, though, they want to make it clear that the war is very much in its early stages, that the fight in
the east isn't as visible to us, i think, because we sort of had eyes, we felt like, in kyiv in a way we don't in the donbas. what do you make of this sort of careful posture that zelenskyy has struck where there have been successes, more successes than u.s. intelligence agencies predicted, at least publicly, but there's a long way to travel to victory. >> yeah, for him, it's -- there's a conflict between celebrating the successes of his military and they are substantial and remarkable, with managing the expectations about what's going to come next. we've moved, as you say, to a war of attrition, to a war of long-distance artillery and missile strikes. there are fewer opportunities for those wonderful images of ukrainian tractors pulling russian tanks away from fields or, you know, small groups of ukrainian soldiers setting up sort of ambushes and taking down russian armor. that's going to be very -- very rare images like that going
forward. this is long distance, these are howitzers flying from great distance. these are those missiles that we see slamming into ukrainian cities. he's going to need a different type of help now. he will keep asking for the moon. he has to. and as katty says there, they will -- there will be this sort of two-tone messaging. in public, he will keep saying, i need more, i need more, i need more. he will imply or outright say, you're not doing enough. in private, they will be grateful for everything they're getting. they've got quite a lot now. quite a lot from the europeans as well as from the united states. they would not have been able to last this long without that artillery. for all the bravery of the ukrainian soldiers and all the skill and abilities of their leaders, they would not have lasted two months against the russian onslaught without substantial western weaponry. they're going to want to have more and the longer this thing
goes when the seasons are changing. once it becomes summer, the nature of the conflict changes again so this is going to be a long haul, he, zelenskyy, has to manage the expectations of his own people, expectations of the world. he's got this other huge challenge, which is, how do you keep the world engaged? as people, we're not very good about keeping our minds on something. >> we're terrible. >> and this is for americans particularly a war far away and again to katty's point, having these refugees come here would make a huge difference. when the war in iraq was still at its sort of hottest phase, i was working with "time" magazine in the baghdad bureau and we had a colleague come to the u.s., and he went to the american south, and he would go to country fairs and he would hold up a sign saying, i'm an iraqi. come and ask me questions. and the response to that was enormous. people just -- random people would walk up to him, engage him in conversation, want to know what was going on behind the scenes, what was his life like,
what was his family's life like. everyday questions that americans don't always get to see and experience. so, the impact of that will actually help zelenskyy keep the world, keep america focused on what he needs us to be focused on. >> and to katty point, connected. >> and connected. >> katty, bobby, we need you both to stay. when we come back, a sigh of relief in many european capitals and our own after french president emmanuel macron held off a challenge from a far-right pro-putin rival. what his victory could tell us about the 2024 presidential election right here at home. or not. that's next. or not that's next.
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♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ the french election, sir. >> i feel good about the french election, number one. number two, i tried to talk to him last night, we spoke to the staff but he was at the eiffel tower having a good time so i'm going to be talking to him today. >> it was shared, i'm sure, among many western leaders because french president emmanuel macron won re-election this weekend. the margin was huge, a healthy 17 points, seen as a rejection of marine le pen's far-right politics. macron's victory makes him the first french president to win re-election in two decades. it lays to rest fears that le pen, seen almost as an ally to vladimir putin, would have shaken up the pro-democratic world order at a time of war in
europe. katty and bobby are back with us. katty, you first focused our attention on her political strength in the country as sanctions on russian oil and gas and the pressure to further sanction russia really had an impact that was felt by french voters. did this result surprise you? do you feel relieved? tell me the impact of this result. >> yeah, i mean, look, i think for people who believe in the european project, who believe in france's engagement in nato, this was undeniably the best possible result, and macron is the first french president in a long time to be re-elected to office, so it's a big victory. think about that, nicole. by the time he's 49, he will have served two terms as a french president, which makes me feel like an awful slacker at the moment. what have i been doing all my life? so, it's a big victory for him, but 40% of the french electorate, some 13 million
french people, voted for marine le pen, and in a sense, this election normalized the far-right in france. ever since the second world war when you had a french government that was pro- -- under the control of the nazis, effectively, the french have shunned the far right, and 13 million of them this time around didn't shun the far right and it's broken a barrier, a psychological barrier in france has been broken whereby it's now acceptable to vote for marine le pen and her platform and her xenophobic, anti-immigrant, anti-eu, anti-nato, pro-putin policies. i think that has now become acceptable. and she's not going anywhere. the other thing i think to watch is the rate of absenteeism. yes, 70% of french voted and americans might say, hallelujah, that's incredible. what's to complain about? it was the lowest turnout in 50 years and when you have low turnout, it shows dissatisfaction among the electorate generally and i think that's something that this white house needs to watch in terms of
the french election. they cannot afford for voters to get disillusioned with their leadership or with the democratic experiment in general. >> and that seems like the best thing to take from an election in another country. i'm always squeamish when we try to lay over an outcome on our own. is that right, or do you see anything else, any other lessons? >> well, there's one other factor to consider. the american presidential election last year was the first, if you like, post-covid election in a major country. this is the first post-ukraine election in a major country, a major country that went into vote in the shadow of the war. so, the war had an effect, i'm sure, on the way french people were thinking. and it certainly helped macron. i think the unmasking of putin as a sort of unmitigated villain in the eyes of most europeans certainly hurt marine le pen
quite a bit. i, like you, am very hesitant to overlay the french situation with our own here in this country. to the extent that what they have in common is that there, too, you have an extreme and an extreme right. there, it's a multiple party country, so the extreme left have their own parties and the extreme right have their own parties. in this country, the extreme left lives within the same tent as the democratic center. the extreme right lives in the same tent as the republican center, and it creates a different kind of dysfunction because it undermines the two big parties. the french had this option with macron to vote for the guy more or less in the middle. our problem is that -- >> we don't have that. >> we don't often get those choices. certainly, we don't get them in down ballot. we've still, you know, in the last election, we still had that in the -- at the top of the ticket with biden representing more or less the middle. >> yeah. >> will we have that the next time around? that's the big question. >> you know, katty, something
that is so interesting to me, as we sort of talk about this unmasking of putin, is that that has happened here. 96% of americans disapprove strongly of vladimir putin. the holdouts are the ostensible leader of the republican party. do you think the democrats can or should muster an argument around how far out of the mainstream the republican standard bearer is? >> i think it's going to be a difficult argument to muster in the midterm elections, because donald trump's name isn't on the ballot. i mean, it's -- yes, it's a good argument to be made, and it helped macron. we saw it in his debate performance with marine le pen when he charged her with being in the pocket of putin, and that did seem to have helped because his poll numbers rose after that debate, but i think that's a difficult argument for the white house to make against a candidate who isn't even running at the moment. when you don't -- this is the problem with midterm elections.
and of course the french are about to have parliamentary elections too and that -- if macron loses power in parliament, it's going to stymie him a little bit like it will stymie joe biden if he loses power here. you may get to 2024 and we started this conversation by saying how short-term all our memories are. i hope the people are still thinking about this issue, and i hope the people are still thinking about ukraine and russia and putin's role in it. let's see what else happens between now and 2024. that's a long way away. >> wise words. katty kay, bobby ghosh, thank you so much for spending time with us today. when we come back, ben goldman will be here, the former majority counsel during the ex-president's first impeachment on the news today that donald trump has been held in contempt and the new details about how his chief of staff took part in virtually every step of the plot to overturn his election defeat. that's next. overturn his elect. at's next.
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as we reported in the last hour, new york attorney general letitia james with a big win in her battle over the twice-impeached ex-president today. a judge in new york held donald trump in contempt of court for not turning over documents in the investigation by the new york a.g. and fined him $10,000 a day until he complies. in the last hour, that same judge ruled again in favor of james. the judge also ordered a real estate firm, kushman and
wakefield to comply with the a.g.'s document request as part of the trump investigation. let's bring in daniel goldman, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, former majority counsel during trump's first impeachment trial, all-around guru on all things legal and trump. what is the significance, and what do you think will happen with this sort of fine of $10,000 a day? we know trump has a lot of money to defend himself, that he sort of built from republican donors, but does this have an impact? does it force people like trump to change course? >> i think it will if they don't appeal it. but as with all litigation involving donald trump, the goal is not to win. the goal is just to delay. you can almost roll out a robot as his lawyer now, because they make the same arguments in every single different matter, you know, oh, it's overbroad, it's a fishing expedition, it's political, and the judge did a
very good job today of just dismissing those out of hand, because there really are relevant to the court process. at the end of the day, it may be that this attorney, who said she would file a sworn statement outlining the searches that were conducted in response to the subpoena request, it's possible that she may be able to explain why there are no responsive documents, but she did admit during the court proceeding that there was an entire file cabinet of donald trump's correspondence that they did not search, ostensibly because they were told that it didn't have to do with his financial statements. how they would know that without searching it is beyond me, but that's pretty good proof that they've got some more work to do. >> i wanted to ask you also about the filing from the january 6th committee. it's ostensibly about everything
they know about mark meadows, but i think it reveals something that you probably know more about than anyone else. the rotten culture in the donald trump white house. what were your thoughts when you read that filing? >> well, there was a lot there, and there's a lot more that's come out today in the text messages with mark meadows. most of the filing on friday was related to meadows' texts as well as the testimony of a meadows' aide who described what we have been talking, nicole, about as a really widespread, massive effort to overturn the election and it's a part of the reason why any accountability is going to take time is because it was so sprawling. but what really jumped out to me is that for the very first time in the january 6th committee, stated in a court document that not -- that notwithstanding all of their investigation, or
including their investigation, there is no evidence that donald trump made a single call to any agency, law enforcement entity, or other individuals to try to send reinforcements to stop an invasion of the united states capitol. and it's a truly remarkable statement that the president of the united states, the commander in chief, who is ultimately responsible for our government, did nothing, absolutely nothing, to try to stop the insurrection. and you can say all you want and as lawyers, i want to parse the evidence and i want to get into the texts, but i just was really struck by the inaction here, which sums everything up about donald trump. it could, of course, be used in a prosecution as evidence of his knowledge, of his intent, even some potentially consciousness of guilt, but it's just so
striking that we would have such an awful event and now we're seeing text messages, more and more, come out about everybody begging donald trump to intervene, and he just refused. i mean, what kind of a of leade responsibility would just sit there watching when they had the authority to intervene and do nothing? i was struck by that one aspect of it more than the layers upon layer of additional evidence of other people who are involve in the this. >> well, and i mean, i'm not a lawyer or former prosecutor, but it seems to go past his i have been difference to violence in what has been described as medieval combat by law enforcement workers. his supporters attacked cops. they went up there and attacked cops. they maimed them with flagpoles and trump flags. what i thought went further --
[ inaudible ]. >> right. but i thought the filing made clear was they had knowledge ahead of time that it would be violence. it explained why republican member of congress were kevlar and were prepared for to withstand violence. they knew there was going to be violence. there are in reporters wearing bullet proof vests, no democrats wearing bullet proof vests. the white house chief of staff had knowledge ahead of time there would be violence. what does that say to you? >> now we're starting to get into different territory. and we've talked a lot on this show, you and i have, about a conspiracy to defraud the united states. if there was foreknowledge of potential violence that occurred we're now talking about potential seditious conspiracy, and that's the critical difference is the knowledge of
violence. if they did know -- this is why meadows' testimony is so important. if he was informed, did he tell donald trump, and then did donald trump have plans for violence when he told the supporters to go march to the capitol and fight for our country? whatever the exact quote was, i'm paraphrasing. that's a totally different animal, and that is -- that enters into i think a much more serious charge of seditious conspiracy. >> yeah, and having worked in the white house after 9/11 and been evacuated on that day and several times afterwards for planes in lost air space, the fact that you had the vice president running with his family and the president wasn't even moved. he was just eating and watching tv, is to me another sign of something that might matter to somebody some day. dan goldman, thank you for spending time with us.
an update an one of those capitol insurrectionists right after a quick break. stay with us. stay with us ywhere♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪
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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber start right now. >> this, so much. we're tracking several big stories. we begin with the new evidence here from congress in the probe of the insurrection. 2,000 newly leaked text messages, and it starts all in the trump white house with the top remaining aide, chief of staff mark meadows. cnn first obtained these texts that revealed how many trump allies were plotting in and around, perhaps most cup possible from a criminal perspective,
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