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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 4, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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have now died from covid. when million people. that numbers really just unimaginable. it is more than the battle deaths in all our major wars combined. it is hard to even know what to compare this to. we have far surpassed the 600,000 americans who died from the spanish flu. this is a sobering day. and a reminder that the pandemic is not over. about 360 americans still die every single day. it is a trauma that will live with us for the rest of our lives. one almost hurt only made worse by so many americans resistance to vaccination and masking. i will leave you with the flags displayed on the national mall last year. at the time, it marked more than 600,000 deaths. that is tonight's read out. all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight, on all in. rage over row -- how republicans are on the threshold of pulling off such an unpopular move.
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>> the republicans have been working toward this day for decades. >> tonight, rebecca traister on what democrats have to do now. and stacey abrams on the need for action at the state level and samantha power on the threat to american democracy. then -- >> with the president was atrocious and totally wrong. >> new tapes emerge from the aftermath of january 6th, when all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. i think anyone who pays close attention to politics, whether you are a journalist who covers, it like i do, or you are inactive news consumer or practitioner, anyone in that category knows that the republican party wants to overturn roe v. wade. they want to make most, if not all, abortions illegal in the states that they control. and, as evidenced by their voting record in congress and the country as a whole, they
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biologic do not want any exceptions for rape or incest. most laws passed recently do not have them. they want to criminalize the doctors and in some cases the women who seek abortion. we have in black and white a leak draft supreme court opinion that wholly overturns roe and would abolish the right to an abortion. that is not surprising. but of course, here is the thing -- most people in a country of 330 million people, do not pay very close attention to politics. in fact, most voters do not. i think there is a case to be made that part of the reason we now have reached this point is because republicans wise and up a bit to the sheer unpopularity of their position as they came closer to actually achieving it. let me explain. nearly 60% of americans think abortion should be legal in all or most cases. that number has held steady for the past few years. that is a 20 point mark.
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right? i mean, if you pull on roe v. wade, all this stuff, it is fairly consistent over time. republicans know this. and so they became more squirrelly about what they were up to, even as they pursued their goal of overturning abortion rights with even more dog tenacity. and to be clear, this moment was 50 years in the making. and like all catastrophes, if it comes to pass -- and i don't know for sure that it will, i hope it does not -- it will be the product of a whole bunch of things that had to go wrong at the same time. that's a definition of catastrophe. the list is endless. but it has been interesting to see the fallout on the right from this leaked draft. among the first responses from republicans -- and i think most people miss this, i read it on air because we were covering it in realtime the other night -- it came from far-right congressman billy long of missouri. long is running in a contested primary to fill the seat being vacated by retiring senator roy blunt. on monday, after an hour passed
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from the leak, he put out a statement saying, quote, i am optimistic that these reports are true and that the supreme court will do the right thing, finally overturning this travesty of a decision. i have always stood up for the right to life and will continue to do so. that is a perfectly logical unexpected thing to say. like, oh, the thing that you have been working on for 40 years, or 50 years, it is coming through. what do you think, congressman? great! of course he hopes it is true. billy long and his colleagues have been working for decades to get this done. but that is it, as far as i can tell. we did not hear many more statements like that one from republicans. because the next day, the national republican senatorial committee circulated this memo, suggesting that party members, quote, be the compassionate consensus builders on abortion policy. they made it clear that they want republicans to focus on the leak, writing in a sample statement, quote, this is a draft opinion. the leak of this document is troubling and is indicative of the radical left's commission
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to undermine the institution of the supreme court. it is wrong and the lakers should be found, fired and potentially prosecuted. while they definitely got the memo, and they've stayed strictly on message ever since -- >> it is utterly stunning. yeah stunning that anyone of the court would leak a draft opinion. i am appalled. this is the most egregious breach of trust that the supreme court has ever had. >> it is a breach of protocol. i don't know who did it. i hope we find out. because the person or persons who did it really struck a blow against the rule of law. >> this should be investigated. and punished. to the fullest extent of the law. if a crime was committed, the department of justice must pursue it completely. >> just a side note on this, there is no crime, as far as i can tell, from a lot of legal scholars.
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leaking a draft opinion -- there's no law that says you cannot leak a draft opinion, just because it has not been done before. it actually was done before in the mid 19th century. anyway, the republicans about the message and fox news clearly got the message as well, repeating those same concerns about a leak over and over again. >> it appears to be a stunning and unprecedented leak. the leak itself represents a shocking and unprecedented breach of the courts confidentiality. >> the point of leaking the opinion was to intimidate conservative justices. people could get hurt because of this leak. >> the leak itself, is that a crime? >> the lake! that lead! my norms! we love norm's. oh, god! a tradition has been broken. okay -- the right does not care about norms and traditions, even breaking them all over the place and they sure as heck don't want to talk about abortion. or more specifically, they shorts heck do not want to talk about what is happening, likely,
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about the overturning of roe v. wade, even though, again, let's be clear, they have been trying to overturn it for 15 years. and i have done everything in their power to achieve that goal. they have stretched the constitution to a breaking point. they have partnered with a dangerous demagogue, who nearly destroyed american democracy in a violent insurrection that killed people. and now they're on the threshold of success and they do not want to talk about it. and it made me think about a few minutes, a few moments from the last two presidential elections. so, in 2016, that demagogue, the dangerous, when donald trump -- he spewed all kind of heterodox opinions and spewed everything from the iraq war was bad to, famously, john mccain was not a war hero. but he would not abide any heterodox opinion on abortion and he would not abide he crossed their public line on abortion as he did in this now infamous moment with chris
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matthews. >> -- do you believe in punishment for abortion? yes or no? as a principle? the >> answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? ten years? >> that, i don't know. >> why not? you think this about everything else, you take positions -- >> i do take positions, it's a complicated position. >> ivory watch that tape a bunch and it is fascinating. right? up until his run for the republican nomination, donald trump was on the record as being pro-choice, quite vociferously so. now he knows he is there and he is attempting in realtime to resign from first principles. right? because he has to mentally model what's a republican thinks about abortion or what a person who opposes abortion things. okay, republicans think abortion is murder. if abortion is murder than there has to be consequences for the person that did it. and so, in that moment you can watch him being like, okay, well -- yes, he comes up with that answer, which is not, in any way, a ludicrous conclusion. in fact, one might even say that is a logical intent of the first principles held by
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republicans and antiabortion activists. but it turns him enormous blow back from both the left and, interestingly, the right. because you cannot say, that dude! even a republican candidate cannot say that. because it is so obviously and noxious to the vast majority of the population, that you would be dragging women into jail for abortions. even though, again, it logically follows, from the principles that republicans themselves state. so, that was a lesson for donald trump. it was a lesson that the republicans had to learn the hard way as well. remember, in 2012, republicans lost two senate seats, when candidates taught economic zuri and richard murdoch of indiana to get too far defending the idea that a woman who had been raped should be forced to carry that child to term. with one politician coining the ridiculous term, legitimate rape. >> would if it's a great? should it be legal or not? >> well, people want to always
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try and make that one of those things -- how do you slice this particular sort of ethical question? it seems to, me first of, all from what i understand from doctors, that is really rare. if it is a legitimate right, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. but let's assume that maybe that did not work or something. >> okay! i mean, when we rewatch it now, what is, it ten years later? oh! here is the thing -- it turns out there is no good way to defend that position because it is a vial notion that, again, the overwhelming majority of americans reject. despite the fact that it is a team of the republican party, the conservative movement and antiabortion forces, and so all of those people sort of shrewdly adapted, and -- leo is the head of a conservative society, if not titular lee, then in practice. and he made sure that any judges nominated by don't trump
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would be true believers and that trump basically outsourced this to him. and in fact, remember, during his first campaign trump even promise that he would appoint justices to overturn roe. but after trump's election, the way that they talk about change and got softer. that ultimate example that comes from mike pence, a lifelong antiabortion warrior. he signed abortion restrictions into law as governor of indiana and clearly want to see abortion made illegal, obviously. we all know that. people of all politics know it. but watch -- this during the 2020 vice presidential debate he dodged the opportunity to come out and say that obvious truth. >> if roe v. wade is under overturned, what would you want indiana to do? would you want your home state to ban all abortions? you have two minutes. uninterrupted. >> thank you for the question. but i will use a bit of my time to respond to that issue. the american people deserve to know -- qassem soleimani, the reigning general for the death of
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hundreds of american service members, addressing your very first question -- i could not be more proud to serve as a vice president who serves for the sanctity of human life. i do not apologize for that stance. >> see what was missing there? what would you do? what would you want indiana to do? do you want to make abortion illegal? do you say the word abortion? do you see the term roe v. wade? no, no, no. he is pro-life, i spent my whole life working for this, i do not want to talk about it, let's talk about qassem soleimani. expect two minutes, not addressing the question, in his wheel house, like, mike pence is in abortion dude. what do you want to do, mike pence, before he got around to saying that? and in the first presidential debate, donald trump, who promised his first campaign, in an unprecedented fashion, he basically said, here is a litmus test, i will only point uses that will overturn roe v. wade, again, that's needed to keep republican voters together, and get a shot at winning. it worked. he then pretended that he did not know how his last appointed
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to the court, amy coney barrett, we devote. >> the president is also opposed to roe v. wade. that is also on the ballot and in the court -- in the court! that is also at stake right now. and so the election is -- >> you don't know what is on the ballot. why is it on the ballot? >> because -- >> it is not on the ballot. >> it is not in the ballot -- it's on the ballot in the court. >> there is nothing happening there -- but >> donald -- >> you don't know her view on roe v. wade. you do not know her view. >> it is amazing, right! there is nothing happening there. like, literally the cliché of nothing to see there, you do not know her view on roe v. wade. again, part of what's allowed this to happen, what got us to this point, with the overturning of roe being imminent -- it was that republicans were clear eyed about the wild unpopularity of their own aims. and rather than dropping those aims, they simply pursued them through means that we're separate from s public opinion. they stack to the court with
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antiabortion judges, who would steamroll the president. they were very, very quiet, sometimes it's flat out lying about what exactly they were doing. and now all that is out in the open and open. and for the love of god, democrats, democrats defenders, defenders of abortion rights, defenders of women's bodily autonomy and freedom -- they realty to be equally protected by the laws -- they must understand that there is a reason that republicans are not talking about the extreme radical position. because they know it is unpopular. and that means that a democrats should talk about other position. because the two party politics zero-sum serves terms mean that their position is unpopular. in new york magazine, rebecca writes, quote, the compelling claim on the hearts of minds of voters been sitting for sometime. and unlike the right wing stories, this narrative has the benefit of being true. a right to abortion is fundamental to human flourishing and to economic
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security, to help and love and happiness and thriving. rebecca traister is a writer at large at new york magazine, and someone who has written extensively about reproductive rights, including a pressured piece from 2019 titled, our fury over abortion was dismissed for decades as hysterical. and most recent piece argues that democrats are not pushing back hard enough on the conservative rollback of abortion rights. a voice is incredibly important that this moment. it is great to have her here. rebecca, what's striking to me about this moment is that -- and plunged four years, your journalism. if you look at marriage equality -- gay marriage -- public opinion really changed. there was a whole bunch of fights in the courts, fights in the state legislatures, and the brutal political context that we see, people change their minds. public opinion has not changed here. it has been very, very steady and yet here we are. how do you understand that? understand that
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fact this is something you've been writing that as well, that again it's not gonna stop here, there's people to pay attention but i want to be clear, this is having kramer today, i think it's important that people particularly well, i'm in a blue state abortion for texas, this is kevin kramer today, sort of saying the quiet part out lap. you mentioned people --
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abortion. i don't find a lot of solace and that just because it didn't happen in my state, so again i think you'd expect a pro-life activist to push for federal protection, yes you can, it seems to me that everybody should be clear eyed and take these people for their word on where this will go. >> right, and that's another real failure on the part of the democratic party that has treated this honestly as though it wasn't a reality, right? people have been screaming with the loss of row, the overturning roe, the gutting of roe which remains a possibility that will stand as a shell. have been taught that they're hysterical and dramatic for years. part of what that does in addition to having not having the fight you're supposed to have interned defend is to leave us profoundly unprepared from about what's to happen, there hasn't, coming from a partisan standpoint democrats have left their people on defended and all kinds of ways,
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including with a perception that don't worry this is probably not gonna happen, be if it happens you'll be fine if you're in a blue state, when in fact there's all kinds of parallels. just widely changing circumstances that are gonna come into play, as soon as the supreme court decision comes down. i believe no matter how it comes down, whether it's a full overturn, or an all-out overturn. >> we should be clear here we don't know the outcome. there's no way what will happen will have the expansion of abortion rights, it'll either be cut back considerably and dramatically or entirely annihilated, those are the two options before we knew this drastically, but very clearly those are the two options. >> right, i also want to point something out about what is actually at stake like every day. one of my first reactions two nights ago in this news broke, when i was walking your show as it was happening, i was confused, is this real, what is
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this lake, i don't know does this mean this is gonna be the decision. i was very confused. and what i needed, what my concern was oh my gosh, this country's full of patients who have appointments for tomorrow, and friday, and next week. if i'm confused about what this means, there needs to be a measured sent to those patients who need care, and the care is still legal cause the one thing i did note, this was an official decision, where was leadership, what needs to happen for democrats who are the stewards of these rights, right? is in this moment there needs to be a focusing and centering on the millions of people who need care, who are about to face criminalization, being cut off from access, there needs to be direct messaging to them about the fact they can still go to keep those appointments in coming weeks. that this isn't official, this isn't about political -- which i think is what's so much of the media and coverage and even some of the democratic talking points have been about.
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there is actually one of the things that has to happen is we need to center the people who are at stake, whose lives could be profoundly affected by this. >> yes, and to that point. it's hard to do that if you talk about abortion for instance. if you say, we want to make sure that women -- that's the word if they need abortions can access abortions because abortions are legal and you are right to obtain and we want to make sure that you know, again even saying the word a bunch, and you end up in this situation. >> and it's been 50 years. and when chuck schumer and nancy pelosi draft this late put out their message, their statement, it did not include the word abortion, they couldn't say it, it's something -- he didn't even use the word abortion in his state of the union address. he did, he's used in the past couple of days on willingly, but again they're not treating
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this as an immoral and medical emergency for millions of people and their families. >> -- great to have you on. thank you very much. >> thanks for having. me >> all right, much more to come tonight including did don jr. just testify against the january six committee and the mccarthy tapes. what's trump's top public in the saying behind closed door, after the insurrection and later my interview with stacey abrams, who's been for governor, is the closely watched race in terms, stick around you don't wanna miss it. terms, stick around you don' wanna miss it. wanna miss it.
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under district attorney gascón, i prosecuted car break-ins. all repeat offenders, often in organized crime rings. but when chesa boudin took office, he dissolved the unit and stopped me from collaborating with the police on my cases. now home and car break-ins are on the rise because repeat offenders know they can get away with it. chesa boudin is failing to do his job. there's a better way to keep san francisco safe. recall chesa boudin now. the supreme court. this kind of stuff doesn't happen. this is not like congress, where everything leaks. looking during closed-door hearings. >> that's a video that donald trump junior posted yesterday morning.
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-- that's how he appears to be speaking. he posted that before he went in voluntarily testified before the january 6th committee. a source tells nbc news that trump junior appeared via video conference for two hours. we do not know what he talked about but we do know that he texted white house chief mark meadows a plan to dispute the election outcome. and he texted meadows, quote, he has got to condemn this crap, asap. the capital police tweet is not enough. they will try to -- his entire legacy if this gets worse. both those things came up. they also had deeper insight into the insurrection, thanks to another recording from kevin mccarthy. the recording comes from alexander burns and jonathan martin, from their book this will not pass. it shows mccarthy as condemning trump's actions as atrocious and working with joe biden to
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move the country forward. i'm going to play the entire call released from the reporters. i want to note that the subtitles are theirs, not ours. >> with the president did is atrocious and totally wrong. from the standpoint -- we are 12 days away. at one point, with biden -- if you have an impeachment and you are sitting in the senate, -- [inaudible] and from the perspective, the country is very, very divided. i've got people that i never thought i would see before, people that are very sophisticated. and they think that everything was going to be different, angry, they want to continue the fight. i've never seen this -- the best thing for everybody has americans moving forward is to focus on bringing us together. i do think the impeachment
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divides the nation further and continues to fight. that's why i want to reach out to biden. i -- not going to happen -- sitting down -- to show that -- [inaudible] so, hopefully, i know he's got to talk to pelosi but hopefully calls me today. and see if we can start that process. i think that would be beneficial to his presidency also. i actually think he would personally be stronger above it, to actually say something to that extent. and i want to move the country forward. why have -- this if they really want impeachment, that means move it back [inaudible] [inaudible] they will continue.
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protest everybody. and i'm just worried about -- >> excuse, me sorry -- >> they're getting -- move on impeachment. i'm trying. >> do -- the base of, hey, it's not healthy for the nation. that's why [inaudible] i mean, i used to do [inaudible] when he was vp. i think he would get all that. we will see. and lugansk, what were you hearing about the call? >> [inaudible] feedback. >> yeah, they said they're discussing. it they said there is definitely anger on their side. but also --
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strategically on what to do. the options from the democrats so far [inaudible] the 25th amendment. >> that takes too long to go physically back to the house. right? >> correct. if the president were to submit a letter, overruling the cabinet, two thirds in the house and senate to overrule -- [inaudible] and obviously impeachment was discussed -- wants him to resign. but members are talking about it. and we will keep you posted on what we are hearing. but certainly, i would say it's [inaudible] possible [inaudible] >> it's pretty striking listening to how normal mark are the sounds in that recording. the normal instinct from grasping reality, passing everything is publicly said since then in a more cynical light. the recording reforms that the republican parties very much
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♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> georgia might be the most
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closely content state in the entire country this state, one over biden just 11,000 votes, democrats now a majority in the senate january 2021. at the state level however,
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it's dominated by republicans which means it also passed a ban on abortion after six weeks before most people even know they're pregnant. and that ban, was signed by republican governor brian kemp back in 2019. a law was initially struck by federal court because its fat lee unconstitutional, after the fact, but in the appeals court which put the matter on hold until a decision comes down from the supreme court about roe v. wade. so, if high court overturns roe, it's poised to do, georgia's abortion battle going to effect immediately, joining over a dozen other states and trigger laws and bans off the books. because of all that, the high stakes in this gubernatorial race and is higher -- later this month he will face and fall against stacey abrams who narrowly lost to camp back in 2019. joining me now is stacey abrams a democrat from georgia and a candidate for governor. it's good to have you on the program, let's start obviously with a huge cataclysm news, and the direct effect it will have
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on the voters of georgia in this election. what is the difference between you and your republican appointment whether it's pejorative cap, on the law that the georgia legislator has passed? >> georgia and neck to issue, as you point out passed a force pregnancy bill. a ban on all abortions after six weeks, with very limited exceptions, and what that ban reveals is their intention going forward. if they're willing to limit it to six weeks now, if they see laws that allow for unilateral bad, i have no doubt they'll pursue. that it's critical that we not only elect me is the next governor of georgia, we use this opportunity to elect state house, state senate that will allow us rollback these angry just laws, regardless of what happens with this decision, the leaked opinion or not, we know what the intention is. brian kemp has been unequivocal about his position as has david perdue, our responsibilities to
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do what we can to protect the women's rights to choose, to protect the ability to make choices about our dignity, our welfare, and our health. and this is the moment to get that work done. >> just to be clear, what i hear from you is obviously you oppose that legislation, and you would seek to repeal it were to become law under a decision striking down? >> absolutely. during my tenure in the legislation i helped defeat hp 11:55, which is a bill that typically use eugenics as a justification for disallowing abortion. i thought against a 20-week ban to help keep it tied up into court for six years, unfortunately after i left the legislator brian kemp because upon becoming governor passed this terrible six-week man. unequivocal, i believe in their right to an abortion. and this is something i came to over many years. i grew up in the deep south, a religious community, where the question of abortion was almost unequivocally no. but it took my exposure to a
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broader set of conversations including to a friend, dear friend in mississippi law to make a tough choice without the support she needed, without support from me, for me to start to think about what does that mean. i think rebecca pointed out earlier, rebecca traister, you may not choose abortion for yourself but almost a majority of americans believe each of the right to make that decision. this is not a conversation for politicians, is a conversation between a doctor and a pregnant person, a pregnant woman to have the conversation with her doctor and her family about what makes sense. i i would say i have all, as i call myself -- and i come to this with the zeal of a converted. i understand the concerns that people have, martin there can junior once said that he cannot segregate his moral concerns. you cannot believe that it's okay to steal the ability to women to have bodily autonomy and say you believe in human civil rights. i cannot do that.
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and as governor i will not do that. >> that's a very forthright answer. and it's striking to me the context urine. obviously like i said george is a real, real tight state. it's a very close balance state, and what i'm hearing from you is that this is your belief. you don't believe this is the thing that you kind of have to whisper, for be squirrelly about. >> no, you cannot take equivocal positions on things a moral certainty. the moral certainties that we're talking about women's lives. this is not a conversation to be had on the debate stage, this is the responsibility we have as americans to defend this right. and to make certain that this is not a right that is dependent upon your zip code, geography should not determine the quality of your humanity. and that is why today we suspended temporarily are fundraising to make sure we were directly resources to five organizations, we want those who still need those services right now to have those services, i encourage you to go
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to stacey abrams.com slash roe, so you can contribute to those organization providing those seven. the -- 2018 i've been a staunch advocate and support. i've been in support with this i know what this means. because i've talked to women who made these choices, i've had staffers will have to make difficult calls, and there is never been a moment where it's right for me as a state legislator, or even hopefully as governor to tell someone that i know better than they do, and then their doctor. does >> street stacey abrams was running for governor in the state of georgia, thank you so much for your time tonight. i really. appreciate >> it thank you. errol >> still to common rolling back reproductive rights, backsliding democracy, we have samantha power joins me just ahead. mantha power joins m just ahead just ahead ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement.
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the supreme court overturns roe v. wade -- rolls back abortion rights in this country -- the u.s. would join a very small group of countries going the wrong way on abortion rights. in fact, only three countries have done so since 1994 -- poland, el salvador and nicaragua. and that period, 59 countries have expanded access, according to the center for reproductive rights.
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last, fall columnist max fisher warned that the overturning of roe maybe just the beginning, since curves on women's rights tend to accelerate and backsliding democracies, a category that includes the united states, according to virtually every independent metric and watchdog. samantha power is the administrator of usaid, and she is someone who has made trips to slovakia and moldova this ring. she joins me now. it is great to have you on. i want to ask, first, just about the u.s. image abroad, particularly as you are gauged engaged in aid efforts. and the degree to which perceptions of american democratic vibrancy matter. like, whether there is a certain degree to which people are looking across the ocean and kind of wondering, where is this country at and what does it mean to be an interlocutor with you, with this country, that seems to be in a bit of a democratic crisis?
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>> well, chris, first, let me just say how disturbed and alarmed i am personally about what we have seen over the past day or two. and what it may portend. on your question, when i was un acid or actually saw some of the positive of this. when obamacare passed and americans established the right to health care for the first time, there was a sense of, oh, okay, america is joining countries that have been pushing for social and economic health rights and welfare for a long time. and can now even be in the vanguard of that at the un and beyond. where we see setbacks on women's rights, on women's empowerment, of course, that is going to affect how people here us as we talk about women's empowerment, about economic or personal empowerment abroad. that has a major impact. the amount of scrutiny,
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interest, curiosity, and love hate relationship, with everything that goes on inside our country -- i mean, there is just no country on earth that is watched as much as this one. again, i had a positive experience, as we recognized same-sex marriage, that became a source of great expiration to lgbtq rights activists around the world and something we were able to push at the united nations, to expand people too -- ,,, i can't imagine with this will do across the region. >> -- there is a enormous humanitarian need in the wake of the russian invasion of ukraine. there is a proposal for a 33 billion dollar aid package that is coming from the white house.
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that is a lot of money. and people do say about foreign aid -- that's a lot of money, we have problems here. as someone who is seeing firsthand and would be seeing some of the distribution of that, what do you say to those folks who are skeptical? >> well, first let me say how heartening it is to see so little skepticism about whether this causes -- i mean, i do think, there are not that many issues that people agree upon on capitol hill. i had a long briefing today with a bipartisan group of senators, who were very much immersed in the details, which non governmental organizations we should be funding, frustrations that things were not moving more quickly. that's frustration that i share. but this is really galvanizing. there is unity for now on capitol hill. but it is heartening in that this is reflected in communities across america.
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as it recedes from the headlines, as compassion fatigue sets in, as it has in conflicts in the past, maybe that will become a harder sell. but maybe people now see the battle between authoritarianism and democracy is lived on the front lines of ukraine, that when a country is gratuitously invaded and bombarded and polarized, where starvation is used as a weapon of war, that that is something that taps into the best of the american tradition, whether the the marshall plan, the nostalgia, a very positive memory of something like that or even world war ii itself, of coming to europe's rescue and standing up to fascism. so, i think there are historical residences here, that are resonating here, and it's bringing out quite a positive reception. >> there is about six weeks here where people started looking at grain exports from ukraine and russia and the role
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they play in the diets of people around the world, particularly in africa and also elsewhere. we or are we on ten being a worst-case scenario, on that particular aspect, and one being it is not a problem. where are we on that right now? >> i think we have even more insight into the dependence on ukrainian wheat. so, to give you one statistic, to share, that brings it home, apparently one out a roughly out of every two or three pieces of red in sub-saharan africa is made with ukrainian wheat. to be very clear, i think maybe when you when i last spoke we were focused on plenty of crops, harvesting, bombardment and what would it mean for ukraine's ability to sow their harvest and to reap that harvest. now, we are very focused on russia's a blockade -- >> right. >> it's blockade of the black sea. because the truth is, the iranians have been heroic, they
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have been out there in their flak jacket with their d mining equipment. the reduction is not as severe as we had thought. but getting it out of ukraine, at scale, and -- so vulnerable, it's our biggest challenge right now. so, the pressure has paid off so far. there's pressure from african countries, that is going to be important. we have drawn down something called the bill emerson trust, with usda, to bring colleagues on to -- the supplemental requests -- and that is going to be incredibly important. and usaid is working in 80 countries, developing countries, many in sub-saharan africa to think about how can they draw on, for, example organic fertilizer -- >> right -- >> so as not to have to rely on russian fertilizer, which is now limited in the export market. >> that is a very clarifying answer, i thank you very, time samantha power, this is all in,