tv Zerlina MSNBC May 7, 2022 3:00am-4:00am PDT
of john hinckley junior, who for decades after shooting an american president, appears at peace with his past. >> that's all for this edition of dateline. i'm natalie morales. thank you for watching. morales. thank you for welcome to the show. i'm zerlina maxwell. we are getting new reaction to the bombshell lead support draft suggesting that the court could be close to overturning roe v. wade. this is one of the many reasons that we may need to rethink america's oldest and potentially most problematic institutions. meanwhile, the senate is trying to codify abortion rights, but do they have the votes to actually make it happen? plus, the white house is
getting a brand-new press secretary. her appointment is a historic, to say the least. we had on these topics and more throughout the show today. we begin with another daring rescue mission. in one of the most brutalized cities in ukraine. take a look at this video shared by the national guard. they say it shows persistent bombing at a steel plant in mariupol, this week. msnbc news has not been able to verify when the video was shot. the head of the presidential office says that amid a steady flow of missile strikes, the un and international red cross, launched another operation on friday, to evacuate civilians from the steel plant. they say that 500 people have been able to escape in recent days. according to president zelenskyy, about 200 civilians are still trapped in the tunnels beneath the factory with little food or water. a fierce group of ukrainian fighters are still resisting russian demands to surrender with one commander reporting,
quote, heavy, bloody fighting. this is two weeks after russian president, vladimir putin, claimed victory in mariupol. joining me now on the ground in ukraine is our correspondent. we were told this week that a majority of russian forces have left mariupol but both say the fighting continues. bring us up to speed on what is going on there. >> the estimate was 2000 russian-backed fighters in the area in mariupol, concentrating on the last pocket of resistance at the azovstal steel plant in the center of the city. it is a huge complex about four square miles. underneath are a series of tunnels, bomb shelters, and it is where families have been sheltering since the start of the war. 200 plaza families and civilians are still underground.
it is an estimate. it is difficult to tell how many people are underground, as well as a number of ukrainian fighters. today, president zelenskyy said that there was continued shelling throughout the night last night at that plant. today, it was meant to be a bit of a cease-fire, a pause in the fighting, so that the united nations convoy could get on-site and rescue some of those civilians. typically, during the last rescue, we did not hear from the united nations throughout the day as the rescue was going on. this was for security reasons. today it was the same thing. we did not hear from the un. the -- 12 civilians have gotten out of the planned and among them are children. they are on a bus now on their way away from that site. even today, as we were looking for updates and trying to get information, we saw on the telegram channel for the fighters, the ukrainian
fighters at that plant, they accused russia of a firing on them as they were trying to take a car closer to where the civilians were to aid with the evacuations. we have not been able to independently confirm that. obviously, we are not on the ground. it is hard to confirm a lot of this information. as far as we know, efforts are still underway. no official update from the united nations on whether anyone has gotten out. >> so the u.s. says that so far, russia has not been able to make a big gains in the east. what is the latest regardless these second faces of the war? >> u.s. defense officials as well as british intelligence have also described this as a war of attrition. neither side is making big gains. there is intense activity in the eastern part of this country, intense shelling and fighting along the front lines. a 300 mile long a front line in donbas and the east which goes
from kharkiv down to mariupol, essentially. some reports on the ukrainian side that the ukrainians were pushing an offensive in the kharkiv area in the northeast. they claimed to have retaken 11 villages from russian forces earlier this week. they were said to be on the offensive again, a today. it is really tough to measure any sort of gains or losses on either side, because, as we have heard from senior defense officials and other analysts who are watching this, what's seems to happen is that russian forces will take over villages, make gains, and then pull back. ukrainians move in, take over the villages, and try to push forward on russians. in between, as we know, there are civilians. the scores of civilians have been caught up in donbas over the past several weeks now.
their casualties occur every day. apartments are shelled, homes are shelled, people trying to flee the fighting. >> kelly cobiella, thank you so much for that excellent reporting. please stay safe! coming up, could the goal of leaking the draft supreme court opinion be to spark outrage and protests across america? maybe. i will explain next. we will be right back. explain next. explain next. we ♪ and kenny on the koi ♪ ♪ and your truck's been demolished by the peterson boy ♪ ♪ yes -- ♪ wait, what was that? timber... [ sighs heavily ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive helps protect what you've built with affordable coverage. looking to get back in your type 2 diabetes zone? once-weekly ozempic® can help. ♪ oh, oh, oh, ozempic®! ♪
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court, looks into how the draft opinion on abortion rights might have been late, saying, quote, that document was much more likely to rally rub liberals and conservatives. it brought home the fact that the court was poised to overrule roy in, a much more concrete term than merely wreaking the vote. that's exactly what this leak did. protesters all across from erica flooded the streets. in washington, d.c. they took to the steps of the supreme court and heard from gender equality leaders, like jocelyn fry. >> i want to say that it takes a special kind of arrogance and racism, and sexism to be sows dismissive of women's bodies. let's speak for the women, the black and brown women, who cannot force to drive to d.c.. and can afford to stand in the supreme court, but who need us
speaking up and speaking out because, as jasmine said, white women who have resources will continue to get abortions. >> joining me now is jocelyn fry. she's the president of the national partnership for women and families. an organization that works to improve the lives of women, by achieving equality for all. so, jocelyn, if roe is actually overturned by the court, one of the potential consequences for women of color? >> first of all, thank you so much for having me and, thank you for bringing attention to this issue. you know, i think the immediate impact is that we will see, in a number of states, elimination, or drastic reduction, and access to abortion. what we know is that that will affect, particularly, folks who have limited economic resources, who can afford to go state to state to access medical care,
abortion care. that would disproportionately harm women of color, who tend to rely on many of the clinics that would be affected. so, we know, for many women across the country, particularly women of color, black and brown women, they will have limited, if not -- access to any type of abortion care. that's extremely problematic. >> i want to play another part of your speech from earlier in the week, let's take a look at that. >> there are a lot of people who seem to be shocked by the decision, the draft decision. for any of us who have been paying attention, there was nothing shocking about what we read. we know the people who have come before this senate, who have wanted to become supreme court justices, we know lies
when we hear them. >> there's been a lot of talk this week about being shocked and surprised by this decision, but there are a lot of folks, yourself included, who were not surprised by this draft decision and what it said. why weren't you surprised? >> well, because this is been part of the roadmap. this is their playbook. the opposition to abortion has been clear, and unequivocal for years. that includes activists outside of the streets, and in the senate. activists in the white house. they've been very clear about their intent to undo roe. while the draft was, for many, a gut punch, it was not a surprising one. it absolutely mapped out what's the prior president said he would do. it's an example of what politicizing the courts look like.
their willingness to do on 2:50 years of president, with the shock of a pan. that's unfortunate, and it's deeply troubling, it should not have happened, we should not be in this position, but it is what happened -- with a political agenda. that's why it wasn't surprising. >> what kind of impact do you think these protests and public outcry could that have, potentially, do you think? >> there is a good question. i don't think we know for sure. we may have an effect on the court, but it may not. the justices come, particularly the recent ones, with long histories on this issue. it remains to be seen whether it will affect the final opinion. i think it gives notice to every policy maker who has been
dismissive of the impact of the elimination of roe. what people have done across the weeks, spontaneously, it stand up and speak out and say, we are not going to stand for going backwards. this is absurd. this is 2022, and it's an outrage. i think you've seen those on the other side stay quiet, with good reason. they have stirred the pot and there are so many people who will be affected by this. this affects, not only women of color, it affects white women who won access abortion, it effects lgbtq folks who see the writing on the wall. this is a deeply troubling opinion. i think the concern about it will be far-reaching but. >> jocelyn fry, thank you so much for being here today. please stay safe. coming up, how the supreme court typically considered the
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house. -- he would later become the justice in the court himself. also, loving v. virginia in 1967 which outlawed bans on interracial marriage. of course, in 1973, there was roe v. wade. supreme court opinions were the exception and not the rule. maybe, instead of believing that our highest court has historically been personified by a martial or rbg we could see it more like a clearest ham this or a millilitre. in this article, the case against a supreme court, to quote, the court was the midwife of jim crow, the dead hand of the confederacy, and is now the chief architect of americas a democratic decline. fox correspondent joins us now. he is also the author of injustice is the supreme court's history of comforting the comfortable and inflicting the inflected. in, you write, quote, the court
simply does not deserve the reverence it's still enjoys in much of american society. for nearly all of its history it has been a reactionary institution, a political one, that serves the interest of the already powerful at the expense of the most vulnerable. lay out the case for us. >> sure, let's start with the recent history. if you read alito's draft opinion, there is a lot of democracy rhetoric. he talks about how he is really turning this to state legislator and lawmakers to decide what the abortion policy will be. this is except that's the other republicans on the supreme court have spent the last decade attacking our democracy. there have been three separate opinions and little rock two of them going after the voting rights act. they have applied one set of rules to democrats and another two republicans in voting
rights cases. when i look at that, i actually think that abortion supporters can win the political fight. they show there is a strong support for abortion rights. this only works if we are a real democracy. the supreme court has laid groundwork for overruling ras v. weighed's at first they tried to make sure that our democracy will not function if there is a backlash to this decision. >> basically, what you are arguing is that, gutting the voting rights act first is cutting off the pathway that the american public and say, no, we do not want that, we want this other thing. right? >> if you go into the broad historical argument, what the supreme court does is decide what is on the table and what is off the table. it decides what the structure of the government is. it has the power to decide what election rules are. in the extreme case, bush v.
gore was one -- they can determine who the election winner is. one thing i discuss in the piece is how the court, for many many years after the civil war, dismantled the reconstruction amendments. it allowed for white mobs to take over southern governments. it gave us a ferguson. it spent the next 40 years dismantling labor rights and striking down things like child labor laws and minimum wage laws. even the good moments in the courts history were not all that good. brown v. board of education, ten years after brown, only one in 85 black children in the south attended 80 segregated school. the supreme court has been rolling back public school desegregation. in a brief window where it was working is because congress got involved. they passed the law of the civil rights act of 1964 that allowed the justice department and the education department, which was then the housing and
education welfare department, to propose real consequences on the states that they do not integrate their schools. >> it is such an important point and i want people in their minds, if they have seen eyes on the prize, or any of the documentaries about this time period in american history, there would not be a need for the national guard to be called in to escort a black children to school in the 1960s. if they were following the supreme court ruling of 1954. another question i have is about what americans can do in this particular moment. one of the things that has often been nuts to me is that we do not have a visual, at all, inside of the supreme court. there are no cameras. it is very secretive. they come out and they are like this is what the law of the land is and we all have to follow that. what can americans actually do
and what do you think they need to do in this moment, to change the court or counter the fact that the court right now has these extremists on the court? >> i hopes is not a tried answer but you have to vote. there is an election coming up. while i said that the supreme court's on leveling the playing field on elections, you can still win a game when you have to run uphill. you can still play harder than the other team. you can play much harder than the other team in the rules are unfair. we have an election coming up. the supreme court is going to be doing things that are going to make it harder for people who, for example, support abortion rights to prevail in the election. hard it does not mean unwinnable. ultimately, i would say one thing, there was a poll i saw recently, the first i have ever seen this in any poll, that
they support court packing. they support adding seats to the additional supreme court to allude the votes like alito. it would neutralize the supreme court as a problem that we have right now. if you want something like that to pass, if you want the women health protection act to pass it which is a bill that will nullify abortion rights, you need more people in congress who support this bill. you need fewer people in congress who oppose that bill. ultimately, i would encourage people to use this as a galvanizing moment and not a moment to be discouraged. you need to fight like hell in this next election. >> i love that you ended on that. all week long i have had the bts some not today in my head. the beginning of that is a shout out to all the underdogs of the world. today we fight. i feel like that is an appropriate a soundtrack for this particular moment of
american voters. thank you so much for being here. please stay safe. >> why the hangar is an outdated image for those who get illegal abortions. we will get right back to that. abortions. abortions. we will get liberty mutual customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. (emu squawks) if anyone objects to this marriage, (emu squawks) (the crowd gasps) no, kevin, no! not today. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪
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not stop people from bringing unwanted pregnancies to an end but it will just have them do it on safely. before roe v. wade people would die when using coat hangers to end pregnancies. medical advances since then mean that the coat hanger could be an outdated image. we go up until the tenth week of pregnancy and accounts for more than half of abortions. red states are also trying to crack down on abortion pills. those restrictions are hard to enforce without tracking peoples mail. joining us now is rene bracey sherman, founder and executive
director of we testify. rene, you recently to weigh tweeted put down the coat hangers and pick up the pills. they are part of the unsafe abortion history. they do not have to be the future. what do you mean by that? help us understand why the coat hanger at the protest of visual is outdated for this particular moment. >> hi zerlina, so good to be here with you. i think it is really important that we can acknowledge our history. yes, people did have and save instances but they also had safe methods. may 3rd, this past tuesday, was the 50th anniversary of the james being arrested. they performed over 11,000 the safe abortions. there were safe abortions. we can have safe abortions be our future. well we need to do is tell people what those methods are.
that is, medication abortion pills. it is really simple. it is a for myself cross soul pills that they can get in the community and the internet. the risk, unfortunately, is in the criminalization. i think it is really important to acknowledge our history and say that yes the coat hanger is a piece of it but also we should be holding up the methods that are safe. people who need abortions are watching. we should not show them where they should get care and do it safely. it is an important point. >> they could be mailed across state lines and could be viewed him as a minister via telemedicine. it is so easy in this particular moment in time. does this make it difficult for the red state to ban abortions, enforce laws against medication abortion. how will this work in the future, do you think? >> it is really complicated.
even though the fda has said that it is okay to male abortion pills, several states specifically bennett. there are organizations that are working outside of the government reach that make sure that people have medication abortion in their communities. it is really important that we show up for the communities, a show for those organizations. we are making sure that no matter what the government says, people have access to the care they need. what we do really need to do is put pressure on our local officials and state officials to get them to stop prosecuting people who manage their abortions. recently, in texas, a 26-year-old woman in the texas area was prosecuted on suspicion of self medicated abortion. they drop the charges. she should not have had to spend two nights in jail.
under no circumstances should people who are pregnant be prosecuted or arrested for their pregnancies. self manage abortion is safe and should not be a crime. >> you mentioned the criminalizing medication abortion and jail. i want to mention the new louisiana bill that popped up. there are signs that states are going in that direction. in louisiana, they want to charge people who get abortions with homicide. if patients are targeted as opposed to targeting doctors and people who drive you to the appointment, with that allow them to start arrested -- arresting a pregnant people who use the abortion medication they get in the mail? >> the sad fact is that they have been arresting us for years. they have been arresting people who are having suspicion of self managing abortions. who experienced miscarriage,
stillbirth. they are arresting us. what is going to happen is that they are going to continue to do that. they have always lied when they said they would not arrest us. our nation is in love with the criminal system. it tracks issues of health care and proud poverty -- if we are pro-choice we need to call for the defunding of police and the ending of criminalization of pregnancy overall. >> one of the things that i have seen online this week is a lot of activists talking about a post world in terms of a surveillance in terms of what the state governments will engage in. you have to prove that the abortions are taking place and under what circumstances. i have seen people delete phone applications about your menstrual cycle. what are your thoughts on the
potential of surveillance by the state governments? >> first and foremost, everyone needs to know that if you care about abortion you need to get part of the stop snitching movement. the government is asking all of us to snitch on people who need abortions. stop snitching! you need to just show up with love and support for people who need abortions. yes, you need to be careful about your digital footprint to make sure that you are safe and that you cannot continue to investigate you. they will track her digital footprints across the internet. there are so many resources. this includes the digital defense fund which has support for you. really be careful. >> rene breezy sherman, i thank you for being here today. please stay safe. coming up, with the democratic majority in the senate and what they are trying to do on abortion rights and whether they will make headway in the
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the side of extremist to ban all abortions, or women, families, and the vast majority of the american people believe on freedom. with all democrats not on the same page of this bill, does it have any chance of becoming a law. joining me to discuss this is the cofounder of all in it together and the contributing writer for the atlantic. >> molly, the senate will not have the votes. you do not have the votes. the senate will take up this a bill and it will not pass because of the filibuster. what is the benefit and purpose of putting the women's health protection act up for a vote and putting people on the record? >> what chuck schumer likes to do this. he has done it before. he makes people vote against things and he thinks it is important and seismic. i don't think republicans care so much. the idea that they have a shame is a 1990s way of thinking about them. they do not have much shame. my hot take i would be that
democrats need to get aggressive. talk about packing the court. talk about term limits for the supreme court. anything you do right now will ultimately be undermined by this conservative supreme court. democrats control the senate, they control the house, and they control the presidency. let's think a big. let's get this done for women! >> lauren, i love the details and the new polling you have. it is around the topic of roe and whether overturning it could energize or women voters. what's tell us what you found. >> the coalition of voters that are required to sustain the democratic majority is in all three parts of the house, senate, and the white house. it is a coalition that includes young women, older women, suburban women, a black women,
a big level of women. an issue has been that women on the love and their engagement in the election is rough. the biden administration knows it. democrats have been worried about it. the big issue that potentially turns this around, that changes the engagement and the commitment of women across the demographics is abortion. we had a poll a couple weeks ago and we asked it in the context of the texas bill. we asked whether these restrictions are motivating and it dramatically changed the level of motivation across the spectrum. it is going to be critical. the next frontier, as molly points out, is these a big questions about the future of the court, but it is also in congress. ultimately, if congress is on codify abortion rights, they are doomed. >> lauren, the reason i put women in quotes is because one of the lessons of the 2016 election is that when you talk about women and the gender gap,
you are obscuring some of the numbers when you look inside the polling and the data. as you mentioned, young women, black women, older women, suburban women, they create a coalition. what is happening with the white women, the majority of white women, who vote for republicans. what is happening with the republican base of women who may agree with this decision? is this energy also ramping up on that side? >> right, that is actually the concern for democrats. we are seeing that the enthusiasm for republican women, specifically, has been exceptionally high. republican men and women have been supported through the midterm elections. they are angry at biden, and angry at the democrats. this is a motivator. i think what we saw in 2018 and 2020 is that women on the left are also mobilized by anger and frustration. they turned out in huge numbers as a referendum against trump.
this started by asking the question of what will be the motivator for the coalition and keep what is a minority at a voters at bay? is a turn on democrats. if democratic women and independent women who swaying back and forth, we can talk about this for hours, but the independent women who do tend to skew democrat with the exception of this recent election in virginia, that coalition is critical. if they do not get motivated to turn out and are not engaged or in tandem, democrats do not have a chance. their turnout is everything. >> there's been a lot of talk, molly, about what the messages should be coming from the democratic side and in this moment. i want to play remarks from the u.s. senator that resonated with me, yesterday. it was strong messaging and it was specifically on how she framed what is going on right now that really resonated with
me. let's take a look. >> i do not think that the 50% of america should be told that they have to put their bodies at risk of life or death without their consent. i hope every human being in this country understands that when you take away a woman's right to make decisions about her health and well-being, she is no longer a full citizen. >> she is the first democrat that i have heard use the word consent in talking about the fact that the supreme court ruling means that the government will force pregnant people to give birth against their will, without consent. how come -- how can democrats amplify the specific point? do you think this could be an effective message going into the midterms? >> yeah, i think it is absolutely effective. when you hear women talk about this you also saw senator
warren absolutely shook by the experience of hearing that roe is going to be overturned. the women who have lived through this period are even more enraged in the rest of us. listening to them is really meaningful. i think it is going to be excellent messaging for them. it is such an upsetting thing. i was so flabbergasted by it. i think that, ultimately, i hate to talk about it as a political tool because it is so seismic and because so many people are going to suffer because of it. i do think it is easy to message for democrats. it is clear. this is the majority that supports this. women should have the freedom to decide what they do with their own bodies. this is a no-brainer. i would say the message is, republicans want to take away your choices. >> go ahead, really quickly. go quick! >> we are seeing a revocation
of rights as americans and that we have come to a joy and accept as our citizenship. my shock to molly's point is, seeing this kind of rollback that writes that we accept the score is going to be a wake up we have never seen. >> lauren, molly, i really appreciate the conversation. thank you for being here today. please stay safe! coming up, the biden administration is making history, yet again. the latest staffing announcement is breaking barriers next. we will be right back. breaking barriers next. we will be right back.
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house is going to make history again. jen psaki, who's been in the role since biden took office, will turn the podium over to karine jean-pierre who is serving as deputy press secretary. >> many people in this room have known her for sometime. for those who do not know her, i want to provide a primer. settle in. first, as you all know, she will be the first black woman, the first lgbtq+ person to serve in this role. it is amazing. representation matters. it is -- she will give a voice to so many and allow and show so many what is possible when you work hard and dream big. this matters. we should celebrate that.
>> charles blow is a columnist for the new york times and an msnbc political analyst. thank you for being here, charles. >> absolutely. >> so, why do you think it is important that there is this type of representation as the face of the american government? >> i think it is important that we constantly see more inclusion. this is a huge step for black people, specifically for black women. this is a huge step for lgbt people, specifically for black women who are lgbt. she represents all of that. i think that constantly seeing a more representation, inclusion, of different types in government and out in the private sector is important for
children to be able to see and model behavior. they can say, i too can be. >> representation matters but you and i both know, it is not everything. lay out for us what you see as the limits of representation. she is going to be the face of the american government. there are limits to this type of representation. it is not the whole ball game. >> but you can see it in the sense of changing the government. this is a big step for kareem. this is a resume issue for her. it is a huge career step for her. these press secretaries rarely serve out the entire term of a president. you step into the role. it is long, grueling hours. you do not do it forever. you do it to show people that you have the chops. you have the policy chops, you understand the policy, you can
explain to the american people, you can defend the administration that you are part of. that is part of the job. you are there to not only convey with what they believe but also defend it. when it gives a person in the role is on every day interview before the world to say, i'm capable of doing this. karine as more than capable of doing this. this is a huge step for her. it is not necessarily a huge step that is going to change the fight for all people like black journalist, a black people, black women, black lgbt. it will give a model. google will say i'm not gonna be the first to do as someone has already done it. this is important. it does not change the ballgame completely. i think we need to understand it in the light of that. let's applaud curried but it does not change the world for everyone else. >> i want to talk to you about the topic of twitter.
you said recently that you were going to quit. i tweeted less than i used to. i quit other social media apps because i discovered that i am in a better mood when i do not doomscrolling. is it elon musk that is making you say no to twitter or was there another factor? >> i thought i was going to pull back the same way i did from a facebook. i have a facebook account but i do not post original content to it. i still have my twitter account but i have decided that i want to post last original content. i point people to the direction of the content that i made in terms of columns, or appearances, or books. because for me it was not just mosque that was the last straw, but there were so many things about it. people like me spent half your
day meeting people and living in a space that is not completely toxic. you don't want harassment to take over. you want to use it what's the way other peoples respond and use it -- it is difficult to do that when you are inundated buys harassment, and distractions. that is taking up a lot of your time. i think, also, social media has a way of turning all of us against our best judgments, into narcissist, you go to this. we costly check to see whether or not this particular tweet can gauge the impact it had and it changes the way that we actually say and how we say them. we are now pitching, subconsciously, to have the most impact and go viral with something. it cheapens thought. for me, i know that i have a luxury. i have a platform on which i
can publish in other ways. a lot of people did not have this luxury. social media became a democratizing effect. it gave everyday people a chance to publish their ideas. i understand that not everyone can pull back the way i do and get their news published. i write books, or whatever. i feel like i know that i could pull back and still have an avenue. i feel like it is important for me to protect my own sanity and peace of mind and to pull back, at this moment, to guard that. >> i can relate very deeply to everything you just said. my mom used to always say, protect your piece. control what enters into your spirit. it affects your mental health. thank you so much for being with us here today. please pay safe. that does it for me. i'm zerlina. you could find me monday through friday streaming on peacock on the msnbc hub. be sure to follow us on facebook, twitter, tiktok, and
you too. more news is coming up right here on msnbc. here on msnbc. this is the katie fang show live from miami, florida. we have a lot of news to cover and questions to answer. let's get started. the fight for abortion rights, rallies planned across the united states today as the majority of americans say that abortion should be legal. this is not the first time that we have seen republicans or gop appointed judges subvert the will of the people. we will get into that. plus, supreme her prophesy. justice clarence thomas made comments to roe v. wade. why his comments are raising
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