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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 9, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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slimy individuals, the russia wing wanted payment beyond that. matthew, doubt is scary, stuff i really appreciate you, that is tonight's read out, all in with chris hayes starts now. out, all i >> tonight, on all in. >> without the start about things to prevent, and really bad things, dangerous things that could've taken the country in a dark direction. >> people trying to stop trump doing dangerous things, and the people outright encouraging it. harrowing details tonight on the final days of the last administration. plus -- >> given what we have learned, i think that he probably has to be held accountable. >> are we getting any closer to an actual trump indictment from the justice department? then -- >> at the end of the day, there is no right to an abortion in the united states constitution. >> the threat to women's health and dozens of stale, and the local democrats trying to hold it at bay.
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and as putin celebrates his invasion of ukraine, what is the u.s. trying to do about it, when all in starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening everyone. from new york, i'm ayman mohyeldin in for chris hayes. we have some year of elation from donald trump secretary of defense about the absolute chaos that he and others face during the last year of the trump administration. in an interview with 60 minutes, mark esper described some of the dangerous ideas that were coming from the ex president and his inner circle, that he says, quote, could have taken the country in a dark direction. >> at various times, doing certainly the last year of the administration, we have folks in the white house, proposing to take military action against venezuela, to strike iran. at one point, if somebody proposed we blockade cuba, these ideas would happen, it seemed, every few weeks, something like this would come
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up. we have to swap them down. >> and donald trump even proposed ordering the united states military to actually shoot americans, as this happened during a meeting in june of 2020 of course, it was when trump was furious about protests against the murder of joe george floyd. and he was considering, at the time, according to esper, sending thousands of troops into the streets of washington, d.c.. >> the president's ranking at the room. he's using a lot of, you know, foul language. you are all f and losers. and then he says to the vice president, mike pence, he's using the same language, and he's looking at pence. >> he called mike pence an f loser? >> he didn't call them directly, but he was looking at him when he was saying it. and it really caught my attention, and i thought we are in a different spot now. he's gonna finally give a direct order to deploy paratroopers in the streets of washington, d.c., and i'm
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thinking with weapons and bayonet's. this will be horrible. >> what specifically was he suggesting that the u.s. military should do to these protesters? >> he says, can't you just shoot them? just shoot them in the legs or something! and he's suggesting that that's what we should do, we should bring them the troops, and shoot the protesters. >> an absolutely scary thought. and to counter that, esper says that he and the chairman of the joint chief of staff, general mark milley, actually came up with a system, a system to deal with these types of crazy ideas, and to prevent catastrophic events from happening in the waiting months of the trump administration. >> mark milley and i discussed what we call the four knows. the four things we had to prevent it from happening between then and the election. and one was, no strategic retweets, no unnecessary wars, no politicization of the military, and no misuse of the military.
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and as we went through the next five or six months, that became the metric by which we would measure things. >> all right, so we know how this ends, right? trump fires esper, just days after the 2020 election. so it was no longer in office during the ex presidents insurrection on january the six. but as pointed to the events of that day, when he was asked whether donald trump was an actual threat to our democracy -- >> do you think donald trump was a threat to democracy? >> i think that, given the events of january 6th, given how he has undermined the election results, he incited people to come to d.c., stir them up that morning, and then failed to call them up. these are threatening to democracy. so yes, what's gonna conclude? >> let's be clear here. it is a good thing that mark esper is sharing these disturbing stories and these insights, important for the american people to know the truth about what's really
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happened during the trump years, as we continue to learn more and more about them, just how dangerous the ex president was to american democracy. but the fact that esper's only warning about the threat now does beg the question, why didn't he sound the alarm sooner? when esper says he thinks trump created dangerous situations? shouldn't he have done something in the moment, lead the stories to the press, perhaps even stand up and resigned from serving under this man? shouldn't voters have had this information before they went to the polls in 2020, knowing they may be reelecting the most dangerous threat to our democracy? they did respond to respond on 60 minutes, it could make things actually worse. >> it's very simple. if i spoke out at the time, i would be fired, number one. and secondly, i had no confidence that anybody who came in behind me would not be a real trump loyalist. and lord knows what would have happened then. >> now, of course, there is
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also the fact that he is now trying to sell a book. mark esper says that he was working to prevent trump from doing reckless, destructive things, we know that there were a number of people in trump's inner circle who were doing the exact opposite. in fact, a new piece from the washington post, details how chief of staff mark meadows orchestrated a quote, final push to keep trump in power. and as we know, meadows was instrumental in promoting the big lie in the weeks leading up to the insurrection on january the 6th. for example, meadows granted those battling theories about a stolen election direct access to the oval office, and personally connected some with the president. and in a new interview, former press secretary stephanie grisham, elaborated. she said, in part, quote, he was allowing people to come into the white house who had this false information. he was participating in these meetings that were causing the presidential to really believe in voter fraud.
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wishing said that she never heard meadows tell trump he was wrong about anything, although she and other former white house officials noted, they didn't know what he told the president in private. now, the post also revealed new details about how quote, on new years eve, meadows became more directly involved in the effort to persuade vice president pence to cooperate with trump's last-ditch plan to stay in power. of course, pence's chief of staff mark short says, they had already rejected that plan, which called for pence to refuse to certify the electoral college votes on january the 6th. i have no doubt, quote, i have no doubt that mark was aware that our office position was that the vice president did not have extraordinary powers and that instead, we interpreted the constitutional role the vice president's pretty straightforward. but meadows still, even despite this, he still forwarded a memo, outlining that plan from the trump campaign lawyer, jenna ellis, and according to short,
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ask that the memo be shared with vice president. and of course, as we know, from the text that mark meadows shared with the january six committee, he loved that plan. michael cornish is a national political investigative reporter with the washington post, who has chronicled ways of how high-level republicans actually work, and try to keep them in power. he joins me now. michael, i can think about a person to talk to about this. talk to me about the executive sources that you have been speaking to, and what they have told you about the reaction to meadows seemingly being so dedicated to election fraud conspiracy theories? >> thanks for having me. you know, mark meadows, the benefit of the, doubt you say okay, everything is -- when the states made their certification on the election of joe biden, you can take that aside. but my focus on the story is a little bit three weeks after that december 14th date, that's what makes, mitch mcconnell called joe biden to
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congratulate him on the new presidency. and you see after that that mark meadows is think a very instrumental role in promoting these theories. and encouraging that they will be all sorts of ways that you look out how he might go ahead and overturn the results in six key states. so i document that, almost day by day, as we're trying to go back with emails, the texts, we are in court filings, just a couple of weeks ago, there was one, two weeks ago, when mark meadows, on the morning of january 6th, responded to a congressman who texted him about having tense somehow not certify certain results, saying that he's pushed that. so from meadow's own words, how he did try to push these final days to keep trump in power. >> you know, i don't ask to reveal any of your sources, obviously. but how willing are people to talk to about these stories? you see any kind of stonewalling, or perhaps even, and overlap with what we are seeing play out with a january
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six committee? >> well, as often i've been investigating these stories, a lot of people don't wind on the record. i do quote some people like you put on the screen there, who are on the record. i urge them to do that. but there's also and the final two weeks, there were new depositions, hundreds of pages, that gave us new insights i think into what pence did. so there's been released of text messages and various reports elsewhere, but putting that together with the depositions from for example, the acting attorney general, deputy acting attorney general, and other officials who saw some of this will get a better sense, i think, putting together reporting, and over the last year as to meadows actual role. so for example, meadows met with trump and republicans who are pushing this idea of overturning the election. and after that meeting he tweeted, on the same day that william barr the attorney general was resigning, there's no evidence of fraud to overturn the election.
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meadows hasn't spoken of any tweet that they're looking at mounting evidence of over fraud voter fraud. we have on the one hand, william barr saying, there is no evidence to election fraud. and on the same day, mark meadows tweeting, the evidence of voter fraud, the next day, he goes to georgia to meet with georgia election officials where there were the idea that trump wanted to talk to those election officials about the effect of overturning the results in georgia. >> absolutely incredible. we're gonna see, of course, the big question today, as to whether or not that actually produces any kind of legal indictments against the former president for what he tried to do in georgia. michael kranish, thank you sir so much. >> congressman reuben geico is a democrat of arizona. he has spoken out and about his experience on the floor of the house during the siege on january the six. he joins me now. congressman, thank you so much for joining us, and making time for us this evening. first of all, what is your reaction, as you learn about
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high-level republicans, as we just heard there, somebody like mark meadows, attempting to keep donald trump in power, despite the fact that it became overwhelmingly clear there was no fraud, and that the president has lost the election? >> number one, i mean, it tells you what kind of little man that mark meadows is, that he's willing to destroy this democracy for such an amoral person as donald trump and his followers. the fact that you're going to throw away this, you know, great culture that we have, this democracy for someone like donald trump shows you what's a low human being you are. and really, mark meadows has always been a problem. he's one of the original birther's, when he was choosing barack obama nothing voted for in the united states. and i gotta say, d.c., the media, accepting him as being some kind of politician, so we shouldn't be surprised at all that if we accepted him as a birther, wouldn't really ostracize them before that, and
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that he didn't think taking one step further, and actually try to sow democracy. there will be no repercussions to it. it's really up on the whole d.c. media, the whole d.c. culture that, you know, mark meadows felt they need to do this. and we should be learning from our mistakes. i wouldn't be surprised to see mark meadows and a bunch of, you know, boards and commissions in the next couple of years, see him, you know, supporting 500 boards, getting his little salaries here and there. and they're gonna pretend like nothing really happened. and that's why this continues because, we allow this, we normalize this type of behavior. but what mark meadows did was wrong. it was treacherous. it was a betrayal to this country. and literally, i do believe he should be in jail right now. he should be in jail for a long last time. >> you served with mark meadows and congress for a few years before he became the white house chief of staff. you've seen his evolution, if you will, how is that behavior we've seen through his text messages and his reporting
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track for you with him and that you know when he served in congress? >> there is no evolution. i think the evolution -- he rose to the occasion. he never rose to the occasion. there was always a pretty file human being. he understood what he was voting for what he was destroying, when he was in congress. there's nothing that surprise you about that, but because we're getting to this washington bubble, where we believe somehow, someone gets a title, they become better. i think a lot of people were making mistakes, not mistakes, excuse the term. mark meadows is a horrible human being. he has been a horrible human being since he was in congress. and he continues to be a horrible human being, and a horrible, you know, american, when he was chief of staff to the president. don't be surprised. don't be surprised by any type of, you, know attempt to rehabilitate his personna. but he's always been this person. the person that was trying to spread the rumors about the president, that he was not
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going to the night states. we should not be surprised that there is also trying to overthrow, you know, this country. and again, i'm sure you all see at some point, one of the d.c. circuits, because at its always happens, some of these people get a lot back in. and they normalize that behavior. >> let me get your thoughts really quickly congressman, about what we heard there from mark esper, another person who served under president trump. and as you see now, he's trying to sell his book, promoters book, and also revealing some very dangerous revelations about what the president considered, deliberated, discussed to do, not just against the protest, but i their adversaries, and more troubling, against our allies, like a country such as mexico. what do you make of this revelation, its timing of it, and just how profoundly troubling it is? >> number, one does not stupid donald trump's. how did he think iraq was gonna land in mexico, and mexico would not be attributed to the united states? there's only a couple of
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countries in north america that actually have rocket capabilities, and it's off and canada. and i doubt cuba would actually get involved with it with this. so, tells you how profoundly stupid the trump people are, that they even consider this. number two, it also judge how they're willing to just break all norms altogether, whether it is firing, you know, a missile into another country, that is aligned with us. or trying to shoot innocent, you know, protesters using american u.s. forces. they're so profoundly corrupt, and they're not really more to any type of, you know, any type of idea, of what this country should be. it makes me extremely dangerous, and it really tells you how dangerous it is that if they get back in power, right? a lot of these weren't able to accomplish, their first goal, because they once marta enough. he just didn't have experience. they were stopping them from doing them a lot of the abuses. if they get back into power, they actually know exactly what we're gonna do next. and what we know, fundamentally,
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it's gonna absolutely change. at least people are not gonna change. trump is gonna be even more corrupt, more a moral, and more dangerous, should he get back in power. >> yeah, so glad you brought that point out, just noted a short while ago saying the most dangerous threat to america was the man who let it for four years, and he is, by all accounts, the front runner for the gop nomination in 2024. so that should tell you where the republican party's, and unfortunately we're america is in this moment of history. congressman ruben gallego, you did not miss your words tonight, thank you so much for joining us. greatly appreciate your insights. >> still to come, former attorney general eric holder now says donald trump should be indicted. the question is, given everything that we have learned, will merrick garland come to the same conclusion, the doj investigation into donald trump? after this. stigation into donald trump? stigation into donald trump? afte ♪♪
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committee has interviewed nearly 1000 people, as a part of its far ranging investigation. but so far, they have not called donald trump or mike pence to testify. even though trump pressured pence for two weeks, to overturn the election, as we've learned. in april, committee chairman bennie thompson said the panel has been able to validate a lot of the statements attributed to both trump and pence, without their testimony. we can likely expect a final decision about those two interviews later this month. with public hearings slated to begin in june. yesterday, former attorney
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general under president barack obama, eric holder, who will be live on at 10 pm with my colleague lawrence o'donnell, was actually asked about the department of justice is apparent silence, on whether it will go after trump in some way. and holder changed course, and said that the ex president, in fact, should be held accountable. >> i have great faith in america and the people of the justice department. we don't really know how aggressively they've been until they are before a camera, announcing a decision even to indict certain people. or will not indict certain people. at some point, people at the justice department, perhaps the prosecutor in atlanta, are gonna have to make a determination about whether or not they want to indict donald trump. >> which they are doing? >> i think there's gonna be sufficient factual information, and i think there's gonna be sufficient proof of content. and then, the question becomes what's the impact of such an indictment? i am institutionalist. my initial thought was not to indict the former president,
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overconcern all divisive it can be. but what we learned is he probably has to be held accountable. >> sufficient proof of intent. barbara mcquade served as the u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. she joins me now. barbara, it's great to see you. you know, a lot of people out there are looking at the same information that you and i, and eric holder are seen. we may not be able to analyze it the way that brilliant legal minds like yourself and the attorney general can. so looking at what the department of justice has so far, what do you see, that might have tipped former attorney general eric holder over to this prosecutorial position? because for me, he said sufficient proof of intent, and i would love to know which piece of evidence he sees that gives him that confidence? >> yes, i don't know which particular piece of evidence, but my guess is, it really has been mounting in recent months. you know, we all have known specifically what donald trump did, when he was trying to pressure mike pence and gather
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all these people, all state electors, and things like that. but he is proving intent. you have to show that donald trump knew that he lost the election, that he knew there was no fraud. but there now is really an enormous amount of evidence on this. we know he's on cybersecurity director issued a statement that there was no fraud. william barr, the attorney general, said that there was no widespread fraud. all of the successors of the justice department who threatened to resign over this issue said there was no fraud. we know that secretary of state of georgia raffensperger told him there was no fraud. his own director of national intelligence told him there was no fraud. and more than 60 judges told him there's no fraud. in fact, the judge who suspended her law license of rudy giuliani, said in fact, there was not even a scintilla of evidence of fraud. they just made up. so in the face of that, at some point, you have to believe that donald trump knew there was no fraud. there is an instruction in the
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law the juries get willful blindness, and you can't avoid the high probability of the fact, just by pretending it doesn't exist. so i think some combination of those factors as likely would have caused him to change his view that there is not sufficient intent evidence. >> basically, you're saying that you can't just play dom and say, i didn't know despite the fact that almost everybody in your orbit, as the president of the united states, officials are hearing from, statements online, agencies that report to you, are all saying. and even the fbi, all saying william barr and all others, saying there is no fraud, right? you can just play down and say you didn't know? >> that's the whole concept of willful blindness. at some point, you can say, i, believe the earth is flat. but if people are telling you it's around, and you've seen pictures from outer space that it's round, and science says it's round, at some point, people say, it's not flat. we all know it. you may want to pretend it is, but there's just too much evidence to the contrary. i think that's the argument, and at some point, the scales are tipped, and i think, at
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least for me, the thing that could take longer to investigate this one of the things -- what's taken so long? the justice department will also want to explore if the negative can be proved, right? because donald trump would likely put on a defense, is there some alternative explanation? are there some witnesses who would give evidence the tenth to show he did not know? so when they need to do is talk to everybody who had information about that, to pin down whether there's any possible negative out there that would -- in a republic, i don't think we've seen it, but that's why you need to be able to make sure you can prove your case beyond reasonable doubt, unanimously, to 12 people that you choose from the streets of washington. so if you've got one or two strong trump supporters there, he's gonna be able to convince them as well. >> so, you bring up an interesting point about all the people they have spoken to, and they're trying to hear from the department of justice, has secured more than 250 guiltless,
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several convictions, all among related to january six. is there one that might help, in any prosecution of donald trump? is there someone that you would look at and say, this has some way that brings this crime that they pled guilty to, or convicted of, closer to the white house? >> they're working their way up. just as michelin says on january 5th, the way the department justice works we charge the people right in front of us, where we can see their crimes. and then we build a case by using them in cooperating, and finding more information. today, we've had two members of the oath keepers pled guilty to seditious conspiracy, and agreed to cooperate. and we know that one of them, joshua james, he was actually at the willard hotel with roger stone on january 6th. and so, i think by talking to some of these people, you may be able to connect them up to some of the things that were happening with that group who stormed the capitol. but i think even if you can't connect donald trump directly to that group, you could still prove conspiracy to father
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united states, or conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, just by showing his efforts to put pressure on mike pence, so long as you can prove intent. and i believe it's already in the public domain is sufficient. >> all right, barbara mcquade, breaking it down for us this evening. barbara, thank you as always, wait lee appreciate your insights. coming up, as the u.s. announcements and eight package for ukraine, has the goal of the biden administration shifted from simply stopping the invasion and going beyond that? the signs of mission creep, after this. that the signs of mission creep after this hi, i'm debra. i'm from colorado. i've been married to my high school sweetheart for 35 years. i'm a a mother of four-- always busy. i was starting to feel a little foggy. just didn't feel like things were as sharp as i knew they once were. i heard about prevagen
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>> -- for why on the global stage. >> i think the most important mission right now is to do whatever is necessary to provide the weapons to the ukrainians, so that they can start the russian advance and donbas. if they can successfully stop that advance, that will be another defeat for the russians. and a real signal to putin that it's trying to lead. >> we're not just enough to support the ukrainians. or fundamentally at war, though it's through proxy with russia. and it's important that we win. >> putin must go. if putin still standing after all this, and then the world's gonna be a very dark place. >> all right, ever since russia
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invaded ukraine, 74 days ago, the united states has provided billions of dollars in military assistance to ukraine. it continues to do so, including more than 5500 javelin anti tank missiles, over 700 switchblade drones, 90 long-range weapons, known as howitzers. and 180,000 rounds to go along with them. and over 50 million rounds of small arms ammunition. but as we are hearing more and more, it sounds like some people believe america's mission is not just to protect ukraine's sovereignty, rather it is a proxy war to ultimately put russia on its back legs, and perhaps even drive vladimir putin out of power. so the question is, are the u.s. objectives the same as they were back in february? or are we starting to see some sort of mission creep? democratic senator tim kaine of virginia as a member of both the senate former relations, and on services committees. he joins me now. senator, great to see you again. thank you for making time for us this evening. sir, you're privileged a lot more information than i
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certainly am. you see things differently than i do. are we in a proxy war with russia right now, and how should americans think about our involvement in that war? >> ayman, we're not in a war with russia. we have no eyes on russia. we would have invaded russia. kim is lying about all this. but we do want to protect ukraine, sovereign democracy from an illegal invasion. enacted by a work women all. so we are allies, not just nato allies, but democracies that care about the rule of law. we're trying to help ukraine repel this invasion, and maintain their sovereignty. and if russia calls out, then we are happy, and they can go figure out within russia but themselves, which we are in this to stop billy the illegal invasion. >> and so, is there a danger of the u.s. getting drawn into a bigger conflict, if we try to
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do more than just help ukraine protect itself? there's obviously the reporting that, you know, u.s. intelligence is being used by the ukrainians, in a very effective way that is leading to direct consequences to both russian lives, russian military assets inside of ukraine, perhaps even outside. the question then becomes, what if russia interprets that as a direct u.s. involvement? is there that threat? >> there are risks here, ayman, certainly. you know, people ask the question, will this provoke putin? the guy was not provoke, so i'm not sure that anything we do is a provocation. again, we have no designs on russia. no interest in any incursions in russia. you guys when your own country and do what you want, but when you decide that you want to invade another country, sovereign country, and lie about it, and commit war crimes.
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and one of the few nations in the world with a jewish president is rife with nazis, if you're gonna do that, we're gonna stick up for a democracy that wants to be even more democratic. and it's not just the u.s. sticking up for ukraine. it's other nato allies, and countries that have never been in nato, like sweden and finland, and countries that always sit on the sidelines, like switzerland. many, many nations are realizing that the russian illegal invasion and the work crimes they are committing have to have a deep inconsequential response. and i give credit to the biden administration for enabling so many nations selling arms and do that. >> senator, while i have, you i'd like to switch gears for a moment, if i may. i talk to you about another big story this, week obviously. senate majority leader chuck schumer, officially saying that the senate will vote wednesday on legislation to codify broad
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abortion rights protections in this country. it seems that legislation will not pass, because it does not have enough republican support. it certainly would not pass, even if democrats got rid of the filibuster. what can this senate democrats, specifically, do to protect abortion rights? what do you want to see the president into your party do? >> ayman, beginning in 1923, the u.s. supreme court, in the case of my robertson briscoe, started to say that, look, due process is guaranteed to all americans in the 14th amendment, which might be the powerhouse amendment to the our constitution. due process includes giving people rights to make personal decisions and their lives and their relationships, without unnecessary government interference. and it's been 100 years of cases, basically laying that principle out. the league last week suggested
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that some on the supreme court won't throw that overboard. but in congress, we shouldn't throw it overboard, because a century of americans have grown more and more accustomed to living their lives, making personal decisions that relationships, pregnancy, reproduction, where they're gonna marry, we are gonna have relationships with what, without our government intruding. that that we're gonna have on wednesday is going to be a story vote, trying to qualify for the first time a federal statute, protecting peoples rights and make their intimate decisions, without unnecessary government interference. you're right, it's likely to go down, because we won't have sufficient republican support. but we're not giving up on this. we're gonna do it we can to protect peoples rights, to make their own decisions about contraception, about carrying a pregnancy, or terminating a pregnancy. and this is not gonna and on wednesday.
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>> senator, we're almost out of time. petito and just ask you quickly, do you believe the members of the supreme court, the justices, based on this leaked memo, misled the congress, when they testified under oath, that they believed roe v. wade was either settled law of the land, or that if americans had a right to privacy, and that this was not gonna be something they were prepared to overturn? lied or misled? >> i think they were misled. in the past, it's not unusual for a justice with life tenure to do things that surprised people that put it on the court. but i think what we're seeing now is a little bit different. people looking, the judiciary committee looking, and telling them one thing, but doing something else. >> yeah, it is a troubling trend, if that continues. senator tim kaine, we appreciate your time tonight, thank you for joining us this evening. coming up, what can individual states do to protect reproductive rights in a post roe america? the republicans who seem eager
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alito's fellow conservative justice brett kavanaugh, who's also expected to vote to overturn roe. but even as these activists are doing best to stand up for the fundamental right, some republican government nerves are practically gleeful at the prospect of taking them away from millions, including in some cases, survivors of rape and incest. >> why is it acceptable in your view to force girls who were victims of incest to carry those children to term? >> when you look at the number of those that actually are involved in incensed, it's less than 1%. and we need to have that conversation in the future about potential -- >> this is your law. >> we are ready to do that, but the reality is, again, that affects less than 1% point of time when people start of all abortions in america. >> what would you say to those women who seek an abortion to write. , who don't have the >> epstein spent months money to travel, who don't have comparing signatures on the the money to raise a child? what would you say to them? >> first of all, at the end, that's where my heart goes out
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to them. i've had to deal with those very difficult circumstances of rape and incest, as governor. and it's difficult. >> at the end of the day, there is no right to an abortion in the united states constitution. >> you just said that you believe like it begins at conception. if there is legislation brought to you to ban contraception, would you sign it? >> well, i don't think that's gonna happen in mississippi. i'm sure we'll have those conversations and other states. but as is always the case, that's always the case that. there's so many things that we can talk about >> so, with all of these threats to abortion rights, and as we just heard there potential contraceptive rights as well, some democrats are mobilizing at the state and local levels, to try and make sure that those rights are protected. we're gonna have more on that, next. ore on that, next nothing will stop me from vacation. no canceling.
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in our doctors offices, they don't belong in our bedrooms, and they should not be making these kinds of decisions on behalf of the american public, and on behalf of women across america. >> all right, so just before the break, we were saying that there are over a dozen states in the u.s. that already have abortion bans, and restrictions that are currently on the books, that will automatically go into effect, if roe v. wade is overturned, which it appears the supreme court is poised to do later this summer, in
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anticipation of this, some democrat attorneys general across the country are actually taking matters into their own hands, and are fighting back, they are not waiting for that decision. -- democratic attorney general from michigan, josh calls the democratic attorney general from wisconsin, they both join me now. it's good to have both of you with us on this timely conversation, both of you said that you would not enforce for abortion bans that are on the books in your states. josh, let me start with you, what does it mean to not enforce the ban? what exactly happens in this case? >> well, in wisconsin, we have a band that goes back to 1849, and it's been dormant for two generations. if roe is struck down, there's going to be a lot of litigation in my state about what the state of the law is. but i think that regardless what happens with those court decisions, the resources of our state department of justice, are far better used investigating and prosecuting serious offenses. there is no reason to use those
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resources instead to infringe on fundamental reproductive freedom by investigating or prosecuting cases of a newborn van that is over 170 years old. >> in michigan state gretchen whitmer has sued to vacate your states ban. explain to us what that means? do you think this is a course of action that other states could take, and should take? >> well we are suing and when i say we my attorneys are representing the governor, and our theory is that our constitution, under the michigan constitution, under the equal protection clause under the due process clause. the rights of women in our state, are protected. this is a fundamental right even under our state constitution even if the united states supreme court does not agree, any longer that it should be protected under the federal constitution. so, our hope is that there will
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be some sort of a preliminary injunction or restraining order the close into effect as soon as the dobbs decision comes down, assuming that it will be the same majority opinion that strike down roe, so that we won't have abortion care that is seized immediately, which would otherwise be the case. and that our supreme court will, upon further evaluation, hopefully decide that we have protections under our own constitution. otherwise, we have a petition drive, and hopefully that will make the ballot, and we'll enshrining to our constitution, abortion rights. but, that won't happen until november. >> one of the scenarios that is envisioned if roe is overturned, is that states, perhaps those that are fighting this, will become like sanctuary states, where people can cross state lines to get abortions. josh, i'm wondering, are there legal risks for those people,
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if they cross over from a state that bans it, potentially to a state that allows it, and return to their home state where it is illegal. >> it will be in totally uncharted territory, because we're talking about laws in the case of my state, that were passed over 170 years ago, and so there is no conception at the time of things like medication, abortion, or interstate travel to obtain access to reproductive health care. now there has been discussion of doctors perhaps setting up clinics just across the wisconsin illinois border of necessary but we also have to bear in mind that state legislators and governors and a lot of states, are trying to take actions to prevent folks from getting around these restrictive bands. so, the bottom line is, if roe is overturned, there is going to be a lot of rollback in access to reproductive health care and the health and the safety of women in our state and in states around the country is going to be seriously endanger. >> i want to get your thoughts
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on the legal argument made by justice samuel alito, in the draft opinion, reversing roe v. wade. he says, the constitution makes no express reference to a right to obtain an abortion, and therefore those the claim that protect some such a right, must show that the right is somehow it's implicit in the constitutional test. roe held at the abortion, right which is not mentioned in the constitution is part of a right to privacy, which is also not mentioned. i think it has a lot of legal minds wondering, there are a lot of things that aren't mentioned in the constitution, but legally speaking, what do you make of the argument that samuel alito is putting forward here that it is not mentioned in the constitution, in the text of the constitution, it is therefore unexplainable. >> it is a means to an end, that's all it is. the majority knew that they wanted to overturn roe v. wade, they have very right-wing radicalized be beliefs about whether or not women should
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have control over their own bodies, and bodily autonomy. let's be frank about this this isn't really just about abortion, and as you played in your earlier clip, about the mississippi governor, we know that where this is going. this is also going to go into fourth control, and we are going to see another a number of other significant cases that are likely to be overturned in the near future because if you are saying that anything that is not in the constitution is not protected well then certainly birth control is unprotected that's on the constitution same-sex marriage, miscalculation, interracial marriage, so this goes on and on, the theoretically to that ends desegregation of public schools is not in the constitution. so, you know, let's be honest about what they're trying to do here. they are trying to regulate
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women's bodies and that's what they wanted to do from the very beginning and that's the path that they've started -- that's why i think people like myself, and like ag caller doing everything we can to fight back to protect women in our individual states. >> yeah, i think as attorney general was saying there this is uncharted territory if it doesn't fact go through, thank you both very much for making time for us tonight i greatly appreciate your insights. that is all in on this monday night, the rachel maddow show starts right now, good evening >> good evening, thank you my friend. much rachel. appreciated. thanks for joining us on this hour. happy to have you here. not everybody stevie works the same. but for lots of tvs, probably most tvs, now i should probably more of an expert on this. for most tvs, something like this is what it looks like when you look on the television and you want t