tv Deadline White House MSNBC May 11, 2022 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT
despite she doesn't have a role to play here. she's not expected to break a tie and she's presiding it even though it is likely to fail and they are watching closely what's happening here as democrats use this as an energizing issue in the midterms. >> ali, thank you. thank you for watching this hour on msnbc. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a glimpse into what could have been in the aftermath of the january 6th insurrection thanks to a republican who did more than just about anyone else in preventing that vision from coming to pass. new york times reporter alex burns and jonathan martin have released audio. they did so last night of an interview they did with senator lindsay graham on january 6,
2021. the contents of which we reported on last week. on the tape lindsay graham predicts a backlash against donald trump and the entire stop the steal movement in light of the horrific violence on january 6th. take a listen. >> we'll actually come out of this thing stronger. moments like this reset. people will calm down. people will say "i don't want to be associated with that." this is a group within a group. what this does, there will be a rallying effect for a while in the country that says we're better than this. >> biden will help that, right? >> totally. he'll be maybe the best person to have, right? i mean, how mad can you get at joe biden? >> joe biden will be the best person to have. of course, lindsay graham's prediction there that there would be a post-january 6th moment of national unity, one that would include the
republicans, at least didn't come close to happening because of, frankly, lindsay graham. instead of turning the disgraced ex-president and allies into political pa rye pariahs, lindsay graham and other republicans chose curtain number two to whitewash the insurrection. they blocked the formation of a bipartisan commission to investigate january 6th, putting democrats in the position of having to launch the select committee. despite stonewalling from trump and his fellow coup plotters and their attacks on the committee, the panel has unearthed the highest level inner workings of the insurrection that donald trump and his republican allies are still to this hour trying desperately to hide. the latest revelation, thanks to a watchdog group that sent its findings to the january 6th select committee are emails from attorney general john eastman. he wrote the now infamous memo that adam kinzinger called a
blueprint for a coup lays out how vice president mike pence could stop the electoral college vote from being certified and left state legislators looking to overturn the election results in favor of donald trump and have running room, quote, attorney john eastman urged republican legislators from pennsylvania to retap late the state's popular vote and throw out tens of thousands of absentee ballots. according to unearthed emails sent in 2020 as donald trump pressured gop lawmakers to subvert his defeat. this recalculation, he positied, would help provide some cover for republicans to replace joe biden's electors from the state with the slate of pro-trump electors. part of a last-ditch bid to overturn the election results. these brand-new details on the trump coup plot is where we start today.
jackie almenny, and solicitor general, now a georgetown law professor. charlie sikes is here, editor-at-large, all msnbc contributors. jackie, i want to start with you. i want to read some more from these emails because this puts john eastman who is in the oval office on the 5th, who is pressuring pence to carry out the coup plot at his level, this puts his fingerprints all over the interactions with the state legislators running the fake electors' plot. this is an exchange from russ dimon. the trump legal team was not exactly stellar at p.a.'s hearing. they failed to provide the affidavits of their witnesses and made a glaring error by purporting that more ballots were returned than mailed out. it is for this reason that i so latched on to your comments that actual fraud is irrelevant when
the election itself is unlawful. to that, eastman writes, pennsylvania state rep russ diamond giving feedback to a resolution he was pushing that he'd actually drafted to nullify pennsylvania's election result. it says this. this is eastman writing, having done the math you'd be left with a significant trump lead that would bolster the argument for the legislature, adopting a slate of trump electors perfectly within your authority to do anyway and tainted by the popular vote and that would help provide cover. in paragraph 3 a determination that the slated electors certified by the governor under the illegally conducted election are null and void. this puts donald trump's personal coup plotter inside the oval office on the 5th, directing the drafting of pennsylvania state legislation. what is the significance in the eyes of the committee, jackie?
>> yeah. it turns out, nicole, that there were multiple blueprints for a coup, potentially as john eastman was trying to, in this case, another spaghetti on the constitution attempt to somehow execute the president's wishes and overturn the results of the election, and this also comes as kyle cheney noted in his reporting that as john eastman was starting to file other legal filings for trump at the supreme court and before he started advocated for the plan for mike pence to unilaterally halt the objection to the electoral college certification and what else is john eastman hiding and that's what the committee wants to know and that's why they're working to get these e-mails which were released because of the public information act, because john eastman said some of them from a public university, the rest of his emails though which the
committee is still trying to get has not been released since those were sent from his email at a private university. so it also shows how much the committee has yet to wrap up and has not yet obtained ahead of these june 9th hearings, although in an update that they sent out to reporters today, they said that they've obtained well over 150,000 documents and records so far, interviews with nearly 800 people and depositions, as well and those are continuing. >> so, neil eastman's in the oval office on the 5th with trump and pence, we already know. eastman is according to these emails corresponding directly with state legislators and directing them on what to codify into state law drafting -- adding language to paragraph 3 of a specific legislative determination that the slate of electors. i mean, what is eastman's criminal exposure? >> it's there, as well as trump and others who are, you know,
looks like involved with eastman. i clerked with john eastman on the supreme court. he clerked for clarence thomas when i clerked for justice stephen breyer, and i thought he was a little kooky, but never coupy. that's what he's doing here. under the cover of math he's trying to throw out votes and his theory is 4% of absentee ballots are generally thrown out. here there were smaller fractions thrown out of .4% so let's just throw out an additional 3.6% of the ballots. what -- first, i'm not even sure how the ballots were cast by mark meadows. second, i don't think there's any electoral scheme anywhere which works the way eastman is proposing. it's ludicrous on its face and eastman knew it. the emails are so telling because eastman uses the phrase, quote, will provide some cover as i flashed earlier on the screen a call and that's just that eastman knew what he was
doing and was wrongful and this is a bite of the apple. first you lose an election and if you lose an election you go to court and lose in court 63 times over then you get state legislators to appoint their own alternate slate of electors. maybe it's the way russia works. it's not the way america works. >> but it's the way that john eastman and donald trump tried to work, and i just want to read to you something that is -- is in "the washington post" reporting, this is a quote from congressman jamie raskin. eastman wasn't doing anything that trump wasn't doing himself. congressman raskin told me, they were both trying to get officials in the electoral process to substitute a counterfeit for the actual vote totals. eastman was seeking to implement a new mathematical calculation contrived to produce a trump win in pennsylvania. this shows the country one more
strategic booby trapped that was improvised by trump's team that can sit there to use by bad faith actors in future elections. i guess, neal, it sounds like the committee in its public utterances have tied trump to all of eastman's conduct. is that what you hear? >> that is -- that's the way i read it and i would say it's not just the committee and also judge david carter in california reviewing the committee's submission. he first called eastman's effort a coup in search of a legal theory is then the title of that to donald trump. these emails show that john eastman did have plenty of theories, he just couldn't find one that any reasonable court or any reasonable legislator would go along with. >> yeah, so charlie, here to neal's point, here is judge carter's ruling. this is what he writes in this case regarding eastman's emails, quote, dr. eastman and president trump launched a campaign to overturn a democratic election,
an action unprecedented in american history. their campaign was not confined to the ivory tower. it was a coup in search of a legal theory. the plan for violent attacks on the seat of the nation's government led to the deaths of several law enforcement officers and deepened public distrust in our political process. for all those crimes, for all those really damaging acts, so far nobody has been held accountable, not mr. eastman, not donald trump. do you see that changing? >> well, i certainly hope so and the judge's ruling. that's a remarkable document and i'm glad you brought that up again because that was in many ways a memo to the attorney general. attention, merrick garland, look what we have in front of you. is anybody going to be held accountable for this? i continue to find it amazing that these guys put the coup in writing. [ laughter ] >> me, too! >> we have it, and there are more out there because he's
telling pennsylvania, look, jackie's right that what eastman was doing basically throwing spaghetti up against the wall and seeing what would stick, but what he's basically telling legislators in pennsylvania and probably in wisconsin and michigan, too, is just make stuff up so it looks like trump won, and that line that neal highlighted is that it provides us cover really is an indication that that's what they're talking about doing. let's come up with completely fake, bogus, statistical measure and we'll wink, wink, wink, use that to justify overcoming the election. it is so bizarre, and i think it's even more bizarre that someone of eastman's former stature would have put that in writing, and my guess is there's a lot more where that came from. >> well, i guess, neal back to you with this question. they all put it in writing and
what don junior's message is, i think they're texts and not emails to mark meadows suggest, is that they're talking in early november about controlling everything. they had the four ways to overturn the defeat and don junior writes to mark meadows, we control everything. you have eastman deep, deep, deep into the pennsylvania legislature working on paragraph 3 of a legislative determination that the slate of electors certified. deep into the granular language and what's your sense that's public facing in terms of the evidence of a widespread conspiracy to do exactly what the judge said which was a coup in search of a legal theory, to carry something out that may, indeed, be criminal? >> yeah. it looks like there was a conspiracy and a call and as charlie says it looks like it was in writing and i'm not surprised of the fact that it was in writing as charlie is
because these people were arrogant and they thought they were untouchable. they were used to four years of getting away with whatever they wanted because they had their hand-picked attorney general in the office and they thought well, our hand-picked courts will allow and deliver us a victory even if we lost the election, and so the question now, which is on america's plate is, are these folks truly untouchable? >> the pressure builds, i guess, jackie, on the committee to show what has been reported which is that they've surpassed in these -- any sort of hurdle in terms of the evidence they've gathered to make a criminal referral if they can grapple with whether or not that's political or not and it seems a small and irrelevant consideration if they have the goods, but i want to play some more of lindsay graham talking about trump's judgment in the moment that was january 6th. this was lindsay graham in that
interview on january 6th. >> he's misjudged the passion. he plays the tv game and he went too far here. that rally didn't help. he created a sense of revenge. >> he created a sense of revenge against liz cheney. his brand is revenge. that's all that it is now. that's what trump is. they're out there running primaries against kemp for what they did in pennsylvania, overturn the actual results of an election administered by all republican statewide election officials. what is your sense of how much of this evidence the committee has of the plot to overturn the results out in the specific state, jackie? >> yeah, nicole. you know, i think just to make it clear to our viewers because i think sometimes people get a
little bit confused and it can be confusing, but you know, the mission of the congressional committee that's investigating january 6th is truly a legislative purpose. they have to be careful not to appear too prosecutorial and look like they're collecting evidence to build a criminal case that is not the origins of the committee nor their ultimate responsibility and all they can do is really lay out the facts and gather all of this evidence and show it in a cohesive way to the department of justice to then run with that or make a potential referral to grade them in that direction, but it is ultimately up to the department of justice whether or not they can pursue criminal charges, but this audio of lindsay graham and mitch mcconnell, all of these pieces of rich audio that jonathan martin and alex burns have uncovered over the past few weeks, that could potentially be very powerful evidence in
painting the entire picture of republicans who really viewed trump's actions through potentially criminal lens and for a problematic lens who has sought to discredit it and we know that with regard to the state electors played and those interviews, they were some of the last people that were subpoenaed and -- it is, no doubt, going to be a key part of the committee's presentations come june. >> charlie, it's an important reminder and i know this comes from jackie's deep reporting of the committee that it is legislative, but liz cheney took a piece of the criminal quote and read from it and the statute she read was from an official proceeding and we know from journalists that they were looking at fraud. we know the committee while they can't prosecute anyone, is certainly aware what those individuals could be prosecuted
for. >> sure. >> what is your sense of what the public phase will usher in in terms of pressure on this justice department? >> well, i mean, that's the key question, isn't it? the public phase, the mission of the committee, i think -- i think is very clear. number one, they have to tell the story compellingly. they have to connect the dots and then they have to provide some framework for accountability and to jackie's main point, ultimately this does come back to the department of justice. this committee is not -- i'm not sure that there's actually a thing of a criminal referral or if that makes that much of a difference because the record will be very, very clear and it will land on merrick garland's desk. the committee, what it has to do is to say look, you may think you know the story, but here's how all of the pieces put together, and i think that the mind -- all of the indications that we're getting are that they understand that and that they continue to get information and they continue to get new
information and that we're learning things every week and that's another one of the extraordinary developments that this has been more than a year and every week we have a piece to the puzzle that kind of flushes out how broad there conspiracy was, and how close it was to the president and how dangerous it was and i think the committee needs to make that story and tell that story in a very compelling way. >> you know, neal, it's probably a new dynamic, right? to have the country so versed in crimes like obstruction of justice, but anyone who lived through the mueller probe learned very early on that mueller was investigating trump on two levels right? it was a collusion and a context for russia probe and trump's, forts to shut down an investigation and the public went through two very painful
and public impeachments of what was an impeachable offense and the views of those o us on planet earth and the encarnation of the gop. to prove that the rule of law still means crimes that are committed and as charlie said, communicated about and brought in large numbers and texted about and emailed about that things in plain view could be described by something liz cheney reads from a code are still things that people are held accountable for. do you think that the things that the supreme court justices feel pained about, about the standing of the court, and about gallop going from a 60% approval from the u.s. supreme court in the year 2000 to a 40% approval today, do you think those things weigh on either the leaders or the rank and file people at the united states of justice. >> i think that they probably do, nicole, and you're right and
i'm a law professor and donald trump has educated more americans about the law than just about everyone, because he was a walking constitutional violations at so many terms. i think there is a distinct to look at what the committee is looking at, because the commit's jurisdiction is retrospective, trying to prospect in should we modify the electoral count act and the eastman emails are basically a blueprint for the same kind of strategy in 2024 for the republican party. so i think they're thinking about all of that and in the course of investigating that they do make conclusions about whether crimes have been committed. i mean, that judge carter opinion that charlie and i were talking about with you, that is the product of the january 6th
committee of congress going into federal court and saying we believe it's more likely than not that donald trump committed crimes including obstructing an official proceeding and the reason why they had to do that is because people like eastman say attorney-client priviledge and try to block their emails coming out and so the commit i says there is an exception to attorney/attorney private when you're engage crimes. >> thoortd the genesis of that and yet committee, even though they have a strict explanation because the trump administration officials or their lawyers have forced the hand of the committee to take these positions. >> jackie aelmany, neal katyal and charlie sikes. it's great to see you all. when we come back, the january 6th committee as we've been
discussing set to lay out its public case against the ex-president. the former attorney general says the facts are already clear and he could be indicted for his role in the insurrection. eric holder is our next guest on what the justice department will be facing. plus, we're following that breaking news on capitol hill. we've been watching the senate floor where a vote on the abortion rights legislation is under way. democrats are not expected to get the needed 60 votes for that to become law. we'll let you know when the vote is over and where things stand. the former head of planned parenthood cecile richards is ahead. rock solid proof that donald trump's influence on his party might not be quite as strong as he wants you to think. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" comes back after a quick break. don't go anywhere. back after a quick break don't go anywhere.
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that's powerful. unbeatable internet from xfinity. made to do anything so you can do anything. as the evidence has come out about what the former president did, those around him did including mark meadows, there is the need for some degree of accountability to let the administration simply off the hook given all that they've done, all that i think we're going to hear that they did. i think it's something that's very dangerous for our nation and so that's kind of what's pushed me towards the notion of doing something that in the past if you'd asked me would have been unthinkable, and that is to potentially indict a former president. >> we opened this hour with those comments yesterday because they are extraordinary for all of the reasons that former attorney general eric holder details there suggesting that an ex-president of this country, in
this case donald trump should potentially be indicted if the evidence points in that direction for his actions in connection with january 6th. and his allies at the most senior levels of his administration as well. comments like those may be heard inside the justice department as increased pressure from folks who have faced questions now for many, many months about what to do with the contempt referral for trump's ex-chief of staff mark meadows. meadows was an enabler of and an acting participator in the coup plot of the 2020 election continues to come into sharper focus with pressure also mounting on the january 6th select committee now laying out a case against the disgraced ex-president himself and hearing some of them in prime time and they're set to begin in less than one month, former attorney general holder saying that the facts of the case before them
will meet the legal bar for indictment of the ex-president of the united states. joining us now, former attorney general eric holder author of the new book "our unfinished march," a history, a history, a crisis and a plan. i just want to start with your thoughts because you -- you make clear this -- this bar that you crossed yourself and most people who worked at the justice department have this deep and abiding feeling that an administration does not look back and ever seek to prosecute their predecessor especially if they're in another party, but just talk about the evidence before you that leaves you to leave open this possibility that if the evidence is there he has to be treated like anyone else who hasec bro broken the law. >> yeah. if you look at the evidence that has been reported and remarkably well by members of the media it is pretty compelling. the things that we have seen come from the january 6th
committee, the things that i expect we will see come from the january 6th committee, i think all of the things that push me towards the very distinct possibility that an indictment of a former president, people around him, cabinet members, people who served at the justice department have to be seriously considered and i said that doing something like that will have a very divisive impact on the nation. people criticized me for that. well, there's a whole range of things that i think a prosecutor has to take into consideration before you ultimately decide to bring a case, but i think here it would be a divisive thing, but given the nature of what it is we're looking at is an attempt to stop the peaceful attempt of power, a coup attempt and people have to be held accountable and just as importantly, there has to be a deterrent effect so that people in the future will know that if you try something the likes of which would try the trump crowd,
you will be held accountable, you will have to face some kind of serious consequence and it is for all those reasons that i come to the position where i think the justice department ultimately is going to be faced with sufficient facts to determine that you have conspiracy to obstruct, conspiracy to defraud and you will have sufficient facts to show that the requisite intent by all of the involved people is going to be there and that a decision is going to have to be made. if you focus on accountability and deterrence that takes you to a place where this republic has never been before. >> and i think the word divisive needs the context of not necessarily right/left. we know from a book written by carol leonnig and phil rucker that donald trump thought it was possible that he would be charged the day of the insurrection and here's lifelong
republican liz cheney on some of these issues. >> mr. meadows' testimony will bear on another key question before this committee, did donald trump through action or inaction, corruptly seek to obstruct or impede congress' official proceedings to count electoral votes? >> the question for you if you're following the evidence and you want to stay as close to the moment of the alleged crimes, how important are the voices of people like liz cheney has the courage to do it in public and in full view and people like kevin mckarthy and mitch mcconnell don't have resemblance to what they say publicly and the most senior republicans and to kevin mccarthy, it wasn't a question of whether trump had to go. it was whether the 25th amendment would take too long or whether he would seek to resign or if impeachment were the only option and these people agreed
that he had to go help how important is hearing from republican leaders in this moment that, in your words, could be very divisive? >> i think it's extremely important to the extent that we are going to keep the amount of division that a potential indictment would actually generate. having leaders of the party do the responsible thing. what they know in their heart to be the right thing would go a long way to keeping the nation together. there will always be people who will be upset about the indictment of a person in their party, and we have to be prepared for that. in fact, the failure to indict could be something that would be extremely divisive as well and may be coming and see division coming from a different place. the justice department itself is not going to rely on the words of congressmen or january 6th committee report. the justice department will empanel a grand jury and use federal investigators and do for
itself what the evidence is, and boy, i tell you, the words of liz cheney and i don't share a world view and agree on many issues, but she's got guts. she's got guts. she is doing a service to this nation the likes of which i've not seen for some time. adam kinzinger who is right there with her. these are people who need to be, again, we don't -- i don't share political views with them, but i have to give them their due and there need to be more people like them and then we have to have the republican leadership simply affirm that which they said and we're closer in time to january the 6th. or not to say january 12th or whenever it was and they've certainly seemed to have lost their nerve between them and now and they need to take a lesson
from liz cheney and adam kinzinger. >> i wonder if you can just opine on what the public -- i don't think the public is exhausted from watching this. i think they're exhausted by the sensation or the feeling or the worry that everything -- every effort to hold trump accountable fails. whether it's mueller, whether it's impeachment one, whether it's impeachment two, whether it's this committee that is said to be grappling with whether or not to make a criminal referral. is that irrelevant? do you believe that the merrick garland will simply stare at the evidence and not pay attention to the political wins. are you confident that's happening? >> yeah. i'm very confident that, you know, that the attorney general, the deputy attorney general and the associate attorney general, the head of the fbi, the head of the criminal division and the people involved in this, various u.s. attorneys will simply do the right thing and that is to
make determinations based on the facts and the law irrespective of the so-called pressure that they will be under. these are probably the most important decisions that they're going to make as lawyers and certainly during their time in government, and the question is how do you want history to view you as somebody who did their job in spite of the pressures and in spite of the ways that you will be characterized or do something that might be characterized as the easy way out and you'll be criticized for not doing their job. i think the dual pressures push you to the place where ultimately they will do -- they'll do the right thing. i want to defend merrick garland and the justice department a bit here. they work with -- it is the justice department tradition and it is federal law that you can't talk about what happens in front of a grand jury and we don't typically talk about
investigations as they are proceeding and that inhibits what the justice department might be doing. i do think, however, that it is incumbent upon those who will have to make those decisions to bring the american people along to somehow given those scriptures educate them and do it in an appropriate way so you don't march up to the 7th floor of the justice department where you make these announcements and say today we're announcing the indictment of fill in the blanks, my high-ranking trump official. the american people need to be prepared for what might possibly occur. >> well, that's the most interesting analysis i've heard about the committee. it ever goes to great lengths to explain how different their mission is, but what you're saying is in terms of this fraught, political moment that everyone would acknowledge our country is living through that one of the services of a month of public hearings might be to educate the public and that committee has only subpoenaed
people who have worked for donald trump's government or campaign rally or organizers to hear the facts of january 6th and the attempt to overturn the election in their own words may do some of that, sort of bringing the people along and educating them in the eventuality that doj acts. >> our memories are a little too short. you think about the impact of the watergate hearings and how that galvanized the nation. it may be that we're more balkanized now and we're 24/7 news cycles and that kind of stuff, but that certainly help head the watergate special prosecutors prepare their cases and it would have made more -- if they were to return indictments would have made their jobs infinitely more easy and the things that sam irvin did along with howard baker. those things served a use frl purpose in the same way the january 6th committee would serve that purpose. people are exhausted about this, that might be true, but they
haven't seen -- wait until you see the hearings. wait until you see the hearings and then ask me whether or not people are exhausted. >> i'll take you up on that because that is very interesting to look at them. we have so much more to talk to you about, your book and the vote that just went down, and it has failed by 49-51. we'll ask you to stick around through a quick break. we'll get to the breaking news we've been following and all of that on the other side of the break. don't go anywhere. n the other s break. don't go anywhere. not all plastic is the same. we're carefully designing our bottles to be 100% recyclable, including the caps. they're collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles. that completes the circle and reduces plastic waste. please help us get every bottle back. ♪
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we're back with former attorney general eric holder. i would like to read from an op-ed you wrote with your co-author sam g.o.p.elman. you write millions of americans have been horrified to read a leaked draft of the supreme court opinion overturning roe v. wade. there's been so much outrage. i felt it myself. if anything remotely resembling what justice alito wrote it will be an attack on women and on every citizen's right to privacy that we assumed was ours. in all honesty, the decline of the court and its waning legitimacy was clear long before. talk about that a little bit. that's obviously on the minds of the justices themselves. >> yeah. the kind of overwrought, caustic language that justice alito used which i predict will not be in the final opinion. the result may be the same. they may have five justices that
will overturn roe versus wade, but i don't think you will see an opinion that looks anything like that draft that was circulated. that is something that will further erode the confidence, i think, in the supreme court. it goes against this notion that is kind of a glue for the respect that the court has and that's precedent. a respect for precedent. people in their daily lives belie on precedence so they have a sense of what the barriers are, what the parameters are of appropriate activity, and we're talking now about doing away with a privacy right that people thought they had, women, principally over the course of the last 50 years, and the law hasn't really changed. the casey case that we looked at and roe reaffirmed it, the only thing that has changed is personnel, the personnel of the court and if the decision of the court of this magnitude could be
tied to or a function of a change in personnel that puts the court in a very, very dangerous place coupled with the way in which that personnel team was put together. merrick garland being on the court because he was nominated too close to an election, amy coney barrett put on the court while people were, in fact, voting. >> right. >> the american people aren't dumb. they aren't stupid. they saw what happened there and you are taking what is in some ways the crown jewel of our democracy, of our three branches and you're politicizing and you are de-legitimizing them and this opinion, if it comes about, i think will further that process as we talk about it in the book. >> and the book goes into efforts to delegitimize with many people that are the crown jewel of our elections in the free and fair transfer of power. in 2024 republicans could decide
to do the right thing and certify the results of the candidate regardless of what candidate comes out on top. if a democrat is winning especially if it's a tighter margin than there was in 2020 republicans may once again spread the lie that the election has been decided by widespread voter fraud. perhaps this time they can control the certification process and controlling congress which has a final say on whether a presidential election is ratified and perhaps it will use that power to overturn the will of the people. that will be the kind of wound from which a nation never recovers which leaves us with an existential question, how do we save our democracy before it's too late? how do we do that? >> i think we need to get citizen involvement to a degree that we don't have. we have faced difficult times in this nation before and we go through a number of those occasions. we talk about -- we were focusing on the vote and we think about the fact that white men without property did not
have the ability to vote and a guy named thomas door decided to form a rebellion on rhode island to make sure that that was dealt with. alice paul fought for the right for women to have the right to vote. she was beaten during a march in 2013, in 2017. a tube was placed down her throat and she was force fed to tray to break her. she did not. women got the right to vote and obviously, dr. king and all of the things that they did in the civil rights movement and contemporary heroes. chris hollins in harris county, texas, who during the course of a pandemic came up with creative ways to increase the number of people who actually voted during a pandemic. so we have great capacities as so-called ordinary people, but it involves us being engaged and having the sense that we can do these things, and then applying ourselves to it. if we do that, we can, in fact, save our democracy and given all of the problems that we have and the division that we have and
the structural impediments that we have to overcome. >> i am struck by one of the first things we had and the two don't see the world the same way, and there are questions for democracy, there's a new realignment and some common ground and the new book starts all sorts of conversations about that. our unfinished march is the book by former attorney general eric holder. thank you for spending time with us today. we are very grateful. >> thanks for having me. >> cecile richards is our next guest on the road ahead for abortion rights. don't go anywhere. d for abortion rights. don't go anywhere.
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people believe in defending a woman's right to choice to decide what happens to her own body. this vote clearly suggests that the senate is not where the majority of americans are on this issue. it also makes clear that a priority for all who care about this issue, the priority should be to elect pro-choice leaders at the local, the state and federal level. what we are seeing around this country are extremist republican leaders who are seeking to criminalize and punish women for making decisions about their own body. >> that was vice president kamala harris sounding the alarm after a vote failed today on the women's health protection act.
the bill would have enshrined into law the right to make choices about your body at the federal level. the bill failed 49-51. all republicans and democratic senate joe manchin were no votes in allowing the bill to proceed. let's bring in cecile richards, the co-chair of american bridge. i know you followed this closely and are not surprised by the vote. vice president harris is correct. 64% of americans were for this legislation which would have codified the protections of roe v. wade. what is your counsel for taking an issue in this divided times around which 64% of americans agree? >> you know, that's the irony, nicolle. this isn't -- it isn't an issue that's dividing the american people. it's an issue that the republican party has been
completely focussed on to the exclusion of all else -- jobs, the economic, covid. instead the entire focus of the republican party has been on ending access to safe and legal abortion. the stunning thing about the vote today is not a single republican senator voted in favor of this legislation which would simply, you know, save this right that we've had for nearly 50 years. i think where we go now is to the ballot box. i'm seeing the reaction around the country. it's stronger than i imagined. independent, republican voters who know that that has been the rhetoric of the party, but never knew it would go this far. i think, as we see these abortion bans now begin to go into effect in states like texas and oklahoma and the stories come out, we begin to see doctors going to jail, women arrested as we saw in texas. this is not what the american
people want. i do think it could impact the way people turn out in the november elections. >> cecile, how important is it to really educate people on how far out of the mainstream these republican-driven laws are? a lot do not include exceptions for rape and incest and the life of the mother, things that were not controversial even on the right for decades and decades. >> no, absolutely. it's critical and, in fact, yesterday at american bridge we launched a new website so that people can go and see the statements of republicans both in office and who are running for office in their own words. it's extraordinary that they are absolutely on the record and in some cases, as we saw in the state of ohio and the senate primary we're seeing in the state of pennsylvania, the same thing, rushing to the most
extreme possible positions that completely takes away the right of women to make decisions about their own bodies, but puts their own health at risk. it's absolutely unheard of. it's so far away from where the mainstream of america is and, again, i think as people are beginning to wake up to the fact that this is something that -- it isn't coming out of just the supreme court. the supreme court was put there -- three of those justices by donald trump who said i will appoint justices who will overturn roe versus wade. we should have believed him. that's what he did. every case this court is taking up was signed by republican leaders and the rush to ban abortion, to criminalize women, to put doctors in jail, these are happening through the republican party and it's simply not what the american people want. >> and it's by their own
admission. justice sotomayor said it's the stench. these republican legislators said now those justices are there we can do this. cecile, i'm going to put you on the spot and talk about these laws. thank you for joining us today. how one party's fervent drive to remain loyal to one guy continues to threaten american democracy. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. eak. don't go anywhere. s of bipolar . i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes
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believe me, i understand the frustration. the fact is congressional republicans, not all of them, but the maga republicans are counting on you to be as frustrated by the pace and progress which they've done everything they can to slow down, that you'll hand power over to them in an act -- so they can enact their extreme agenda. it's 5:00 in new york. that was president biden with a sharper message about exactly what is at stake in this november's midterm elections. his predecessor, the twice impeached donald trump solidifies his grip on the gop. the less recognizable party of lincoln and reagan comes from itself. the core of the maga agenda that
swallowed up the republican is the big lie. the lie that rampant and systemic voter fraud in the 2020 election stole donald trump's victory from him. it is, of course, a huge lie. it's been disproven over and over and over again, even by many in donald trump's own orbit. people like bill barr and chris krebs. instead of bragging about it and being proud that our country in the middle of the pandemic ran the most secure election in our nation's history, republicans decided that a display of loyalty to american democracy, a display of competence is a reliability. take last night's primary in west virginia where donald trump backed alex mooney and he beat david mckinley. mckinley, unlike his
trumped-back challenger, voted for a bipartisan to investigate the deadly insurrection. he committed a sin in trump's eyes by voting for president biden's bipartisan infrastructure package. donald trump tried to do that for four long years. the candidate who put support for trump and his 2020 election lie above democracy and bipartisanship prevailed, proving once again that what the republican party values is that lie. mckinley said, quote, serving the people of west virginia has been the honor of my life. i'm proud i've always stood up for what's right for west virginia even when it hurt me politically. amanda carpenter writes, although mooney's win confirms the trump if i indication of the gop after trump's disgraceful exit from the white house, it's also evidence of trump's shrinking gop base. this incumbent versus incumbent
face-off took place because west virginia lost a house member. mooney is already a member of congress. it's just one fewer republican vote in the house of representatives from west virginia. our democracy hanging in the balance with midterm elections is where we start the hour. frank is back. also, joining us is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney now law professor at the university of alabama. rick stengle is here, msnbc contributor. frank, i start with you because you've been with us. on this sort of tracking whether trumping is tightening or loosening his grip, put that aside. it's about ideology.
they have to stay in character and pretend the 2020 election was fraudulent, even when it sent them back to congress. what are we heading into in this next election? >> i'll tell you where we are now. it's a cult-like scenario. nicolle, this has gone beyond political ideology. it's now the identity of a party, but it's more than that because it's now become a personal identity for those who consume the big lie, the grand deception. i can't help because of my national security lens that i look at things to to compare this to what we see in violent jihad. what do i mean by that? you have the perpetrators of the big lie. you become a martyr. you get this level of paradise. you go to valhalla. here's what happens. there are gurus and cultists who
preach that, but there's consumers who have to buy it. at the point we're at now it's supply and demand. the demand side are people disregarding truth and reality. two years ago we would say things like here's how to be nice to looney relatives at thanksgiving dinner. here's how to keep showing facts to people who need to see the facts. these poor victims have gone down an eco chamber, living in a rabbit hole. how do we get them out? i'm saying now it's a conscious decision on both sides, the purveyors of the fraud and the consumers of it, it's a conscious decision to accept the big lie. why? it's their personal identity. if they reject the facts, there was no fraud, there was no systemic crime committed, if
they reject that, they are literally rejecting their personal identity. this is a much harder nut to crack for us as a society. we not only need to hold accountable those who continue -- ted cruz saying january 6th was a peaceful protest. he said it monday night on fox. it's not only holding them accountable. it's now to figure out what to do with those who consume by choice the big lie knowing it's wrong because it's become a part of them. >> speaking of nuts to crack, you mentioned yesterday this new piece of propaganda, this film. it is a piece of multi-media disinformation. it was showcased at the ex president's house. it is maga world's version of the "top gun" movie this summer that we're looking forward to. talk about the danger of this sort of phoney event at the
center of this circus of lies and disinformation. >> yeah. there's a sharl tan out there, a snake oil salesman who is trying to sell -- i'm not kidding when i say sell. you have to pay 30 bucks a pop to see this truth. it's like come here, give me your money and i'll show you the freak show. it's full of disinformation about geo fencing that are supposed to be around drop boxes and therefore all those are being called fraudulent votes. it will blow your mind if you look at it and want to pay your 30 bucks to see it. it's so crazy that fox news and
others said too crazy for us. when someone is trying to profit off the big lie, that's a clue that there's some deception going on here. that's where we are. people are saying how can i profit off this and how do i get more power, more money, more prestige by suckering you into believing the big lie? >> what's interesting to me, joyce, is it coincides with the retraction from oan that has to do -- they don't apologize. i don't want to give them more credit. they assert there was no fraud. the lies we were told about the fraud in georgia, specifically about two individuals, were not true. they've done more digging and they recant the lies. there was a $1 billion lawsuit by dominion against conservative media outlets. what are the legal problems with
saying something over and over in court -- if you have to trot out to prove it was a lie, you have bill barr and chris krebs. >> it's amazing that this film maker, who your viewers will recall, was convicted of finance campaign fraud and received a pardon by the late president and he's now out becoming the purveyor of lies about voting. it's very much on brand. that's where a lot of this comes from. some of the voting machine companies found a really intelligent way to fight back because, when you bring a liable suit, one of the things you can require is people who have committed a liable or slander against you, have to recant in the same forum where they told the lies. this is perhaps one of the most effective ways of beginning to
get word out to these people who frank thinks knows that the big lie is a lie. i'm not sure i can go that far. in some cases where people have been fed a steady lie of this, finally forcing a network like oan to tell the truth, may bear fruit alongside the work the january 6th committee is doing. >> you know this better than anything, your role in government and your role as an editor, but it's so much more efficient for the lie to spread with the fervor and the passion of emotion than it is for the fact check which is methodical and slower to spread with sort of the determination of the fact adherent. this is a fact check from the
denver post. this is the claim, 2,000 mules were paid to illegal collect ballots and deliver them to drop boxes in key swing states ahead of the 2020 election. this according to the denver post is the fact. the finding is based on false assumptions using cell phone tracking data. this is the claim by the denver post. in philadelphia true the vote identified 1,155 mules who collected ballots for money. the fact, no, it did not. >> a lot of this is normal procedure that happens in every election. people are looking at it in a different way. the danger is not that it's wildly wrong. the danger is that the eco chamber that it appears in, that people are disposed to believe the things they already believe.
the more these things get seen, are talked about, the more it confirms to people that already believe it. as frank said, maybe he's making it to make money. he's not making it to persuade liberals or people on the left that the election was stolen. he's making it for people who already believe it. the reason conspiracy theories flourish is when people feel left out. that's what won trump the 2016 election. >> it seems like in 2016 he put on the red hat, told people who to be afraid of and who was to blame, illegal immigrants. build the way and we'll keep them out. this was further down than what i thought was the bottom.
it's a delusion. there was no fraud in 2020. now you lose a republican primary for committing the crime of not parroting a lie that bill barr said was a lie. it's twisted. >> one man's twisted mind to explain his own loss led many people to believe the delusion. the west virginia primary, the thing that's so confounding is believing in a rational voter. they voted out a man who was a civil engineer, who voted on the bipartisan infrastructure bill. they need this money in west virginia. the other guy said don't vote for him because he voted for what president trump opposed. we have a problem in our system when that's the case. that goes back to the tom frank book "what's the matter with
kansas." why are people in kansas voting republican when it's against their self-interest? >> frank, what i hear from you is it's way beyond a culture war. it is now a national -- it's now a fight with national security implications. if the intersection of the current domestic violent extremist threat is adhering to the lies about the 2020 election, where we head into two more election cycles, who knows where they'll turn out, you have have the country now primed to not accept the results if they don't go their way. >> here's the thing, when we moved into a religious cult-like threat and risk picture, which i believe we're in, as has been said, people are willing to do things against their own self-interests, even perhaps against their own safety, we're
now into an area where republicans don't have to win an election or claim they won the midterms, rather they have to cast doubt on the outcomes. if people don't believe there's credible outcomes, all they need is to plant that seed of doubt in certain key states. i'm really concerned, nicolle, that we're not only at a point where people are going to go, yeah, i don't believe anybody anymore. it's not a credible vote. i'm not showing up next time. i think it's worse than that. we've seen violence on january 6th. i don't think that's the end. i think we're getting deeper into this cult-like behavior and mindset and i think people could act out violently if they believe the mid terms have not been -- the vote hasn't been counted correctly, they can't trust their electors, we got a
problem. >> joyce, what's so bat bleep crazy is every republican house member was sent back to congress on this piece of paper that donald trump's vote was on, every one of them. if they were trying to be honest, they would call their own victories into question. when you look at the folks -- pennsylvania republicans are in a panic over doug mastriano. the concept that doug who was present at the january 6th insurrection and could lead the republican ticket has alarmed republicans in pennsylvania. he said he left before the riot took place. they worry the party could be dooming their candidate.
if you put the national security frame back on it, we talk about marjorie taylor greene and her bizarre and confrontational and extreme behavior threatening some of her democratic colleagues. if you have someone who was at the riot, what does the republican caucus turn know, th security frame ends up being the one that's been missing from too much of the conversation. we talk about the politics. we talk about justice and accountability. national security here is dead on the money. when you have this critical mass of people who are willing to defy the law and perhaps to encourage or be part of violence along the way and when those people are elected officials, perhaps in congress, perhaps in other offices, then we have serious problems on our hands. when you put that together with
what rick is saying about the way that republicans are going to use -- they're going to cast doubt on future elections. they don't have to win. they don't have to have legitimate doubt. they simply have to perpetrate the myth about fraud to make people doubt the outcomes of elections. if you marry that with leadership willing to take this additional step and incentivize mob behavior, we're in a dangerous place. i'm a former u.s. attorney in alabama. after every election there were allegations of voter fraud. typically we investigated and these game from republicans saying dead people were voting. you would investigate and find out that wasn't the case. people would then live with the results. what's happening now is instead of accepting results in courts or listening to people like chris krebs who said -- a republican who said this was a
great election. we ran it. we're confident in the outcome despite all the challenges we faced. when you have republicans willing to move beyond that and perhaps use violence to get what they want, it's difficult to overclaim what a dangerous place we're in. >> frank, joyce, thank you so much for starting us off. rick is sticking around. when we come back the twice impeached ex president endorsed a candidate for governor in a deep red state and last night that candidate lost. plus how matthew dodd says democrats can win this year. plus, we know what's in those math textbooks that drove ron desantis crazy and he banned them. then ukrainian officials have announced the first war
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trump-backed challenger. herbster faces accusations of sexual misconduct. it was only a 3.5 point loss for herbster, making him the first candidate endorsed by trump to lose a primary. joining us now matthew dowd, political strategist and erin haines and rick stengel still here. matt, i want to start with your takeaways from everything you've seen so far. you used to do this for campaigns we worked together on. you wrote a divergence is developing between biden's net approval. explain that. >> this has been coming for the
last 30 to 60 days. joe biden's net unfavorables, if you look at it, is about negative 12. any given poll could be negative 8, but it's about negative 12. barack obama when he hit that level in 2010, which was august of 2010, he was behind republicans at that point in time by 4 or 5 points. today in that same poll that has joe biden a negative 12 on job approval, democrats are up 4 or 5 in the polls. what's developed is people seem okay with disliking where joe biden is for whatever reason, the economy, inflation, or whatever, but don't want to turn the reins over to the republican party. that's different than almost every midterm before. that to me presents a great opportunity for democrats. the other thing it highlights, nicolle, is this group of voters
which i believe are the key to this election. people that both dislike donald trump and dislike joe biden. they dislike both of them. how those voters will break in this election is going to determine who holds congress and who wins the statewide races. >> you write the republican party is spending way too much time delving into cultural issues that democrats lead on. explain how that's a factor. >> when you look at all these polls, where democrats have an advantage and where republicans have an advantage, the things smart campaigns do is campaign on things their party has an advantage of and deal with the issues the other side has, but concentrate on issues you have a higher favorability. for right now republicans have an advantage on inflation and the economy and very little on immigration and the border. it's not an issue.
it's not going to move many voters who dislike donald trump and dislike joe biden. democrats have a big advantage on voting rights, on education, on choice and abortion and on rights related to people -- whether by sex or race, people who have been discriminated in the past and are coming into their own. that's where this battle needs to be fought. right now we have conversations of democrats trying to talk about the economy and talk about inflation, which is a republican advantage, and republicans talking about cultural issues. really it should be flipped. if i were the democrats i would wade full into voting rights and rights as a whole and freedoms and choice and basically say we have x, y, z plan on the economy and inflation, but spend 90% of your time talking about those issues. let republicans continue to talk about cultural issues. when republicans talk about
cultural issues among swing voters, they're not going to win if democrats launch a campaign on it. that's what this is all contingent on. will democrats launch a full-force campaign on democracy, voting rights and choice in a way that pushes other issues aside? >> erin haines, what do you think? >> absolutely, nicolle. what matthew is saying is absolutely right. you're already seeing it in the messaging from folks like the vice president who just presided over that vote in the senate that was forced to make senators make their position known on the whpa vote. you know, after that vote she said -- she continues to conversation around abortion to a conversation about freedom,
like voting rights, that could galvanize democratic voters depending how effective that messaging is. couple points on this. primaries are not general elections. the conversations we've been having about what it could take to become the nominee on the republican side is not the same conversation from now to november. there were trump-backed candidates in 2018 and 2020 made it out of primaries and lost in november. you have republicans that are battling for the soul of the party. that's a dynamic that is present in these primary contests. trump split the difference in nebraska and ohio. j.d. vance won his primary. he was backed by the former president, but so was governor dewine who didn't have the former president's support and he looks strong headed into the fall. we should keep an eye on that dynamic as we look ahead to my
home state of georgia or the state i live now in pennsylvania where you have trump's influence, but yet to see how that will play out and what that will mean once we pivot to the general election. >> matt, i want to come back to cultural issues. should we call them cultural issues? doesn't that down play them. why aren't democrats protecting the constitutional rights to freedom, equality and privacy? >> being a communication person that was highly affecting, nicolle, i completely agree with you. democrats ought to run a campaign based upon rights and freedom based in our constitution. they can tie voting to that, democracy, choice, all of this together about who is a person that believes in your rights and your freedoms to do what you want and make the decisions for your life and who's willing to protect everybody's rights and
freedoms? no matter what sex you are, what race you are, what party you are. they could run a campaign that could say we're the only party standing for all your rights -- republicans, democrats and independents. wringing their hands and bed wetting over inflation and the economy, obviously an issue you have to deal with, but that's not where they should be spending their energy and time. when they do that, they feed into the republican's hands. >> you can almost see the ads too, rick. a democrat standing up for every kid in americas right to freedom, every person to make their choice about their own body, whether you're a kid of a democrat or republican. there's only one party that stands for democracy. there's only one party committed to protect constitutional rights to privacy. it's the starkest contrast. to matthew's point it happens to be the ground on which democrats
are on offense. >> yes. the rights issue is a complicated one in the sense that when democrats talk about rights, republicans feel that means their rights are being infringed upon. they're the party of the suppression of rights. they're trying to prevent people from voting. i'm not 100% sure it's a winning issue. i agree with matt that inflation ain't a winning issue. the reason that republicans are campaigning on cultural issues, critical race theory and sex education in schools, it's because they don't have any policies. they have no legislative agenda. matt talked about independents who don't like biden or trump. you have to give them something. >> constitutionism. >> i'm the constitution guy, but that doesn't play with voters. >> nicolle?
>> go ahead, matt. >> i would say voters don't vote much anymore in their economic self-interest at all anymore. they have to vote in their whole interest. by and large what voters want is they want to vote in their community's interest, what's best for my community defined in whatever ways that. if you run on rights and freedoms -- the thing with democrats and they say the number one issue is economy and these other issues are down the list, i would remind them -- you know this because you were with me in the campaign. in 2004 the number one issue in every poll was the economy. we didn't talk about the economy. we talked about national security. on election day, that's what voters voted on. >> everyone needs to stick around.
we'll turn to what's happening in florida. it's becoming not planet earth. governor ron desantis literally making it up when the state banned a slew of math textbooks over the boogieman of critical race theory. we'll explain what was in those textbooks after a quick break. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhe. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> man: looks great. >> tech: that's service on your time. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete balanced nutrition for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ ♪ you never know what opportunities with 30 grams of protein. life will send your way. but if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis or psoriatic arthritis, enbrel can help you say i'm in for what's next. ready to create a bigger world? -i'm in.
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itself. thousands of pages of reviews at the state department and the governor are pressured to release them to explain their baffling man of dozens of school math books last month. turns out none of the reviewers found the banned topic of critical race theory in any, not one, of the elementary math textbooks. only two flagged high school books for so-called crt and both have tied to far right organizations. "the washington post" reports one of them had a problem with a statement acknowledging that the u.s. has not eradicated poverty or racism, which she considers that statement to be critical race theory. that same reviewer flagged facts. one on the first page that didn't match her personal believes, a pattern among
reviewers, writing the author is biased when it comes to global warming and climate crisis. he talks about climate crisis as if it's a proven fact. she complained vaccines didn't talk about natural immunity. we're back with our panel. two of the reviewers -- this whole thing was bogus. now all these textbooks in florida have been banned behind a political phony act. do you think anything will come of it, erin? >> what's coming of it is what republicans are hoping. keep critical race theory in the headlines and these books are banned. the issue is not about critical race theory being taught in classroom, just like the issue
is not the threat of election integrity being used to keep in voter suppression. we're still talking about this because democrats haven't crafted a counter measure to this. republicans are continuing to fill a void, invoking race to galvanize voters. it's politically expedient. going into november, while we know this is going to be an issue a very much part of the culture war strategy, you know, why not have a conversation as a country in terms of what we're talking about on the other side of a racial reckoning? what does this mean for how our children are educated, what they learn about the history of america and who gets a say in that? >> matthew, what does that conversation look like? >> well, you know, first, as i was listening, i was thinking it's almost 100 years ago that
we had the monkey trial over whether or not evolution should be taught in school when a teacher in tennessee had the gall to teach about evolution. that was over 100 years ago. here we are again about not teaching history, not teaching facts, not exposing students to critical things they can have a conversation about. if i were democrats, i would say, come on, let's have a conversation about education. let's have a conversation about who has the best interest of our students at hand. let's have that conversation. right now democrats have a 15-point advantage on education. critical race theory motivates the republican base which is about 25 or 30% of the country. it's not going to win the election. it didn't win the election
despite of what many people said about in virginia. if i were the democrats, i would say let's have a conversation about education in our schools and who's funding it and providing the resources to teach our kids. >> this is the thing and i only know this about being on the other side where i didn't have public opinion, sometimes the facts or the better argument on our side. democrats have a 15% advantage on education, big advantages on rights, big advantages on roe. they find themselves in defense. i find myself perplexed. when are they back in terms of public opinion? >> i agree with that. i agree with what matt said. democrats need to say let's talk about education. i'm a democrat, but i feel my
children can learn about racism, can learn about that we had slavery, can learn about the flaws in america. i think they're strong enough to learn about that. the beauty of america, the power of america is that we try to heal the breach. we look at what was wrong with us. we teach people what was wrong with us and we find a better way. >> that's right. no child today is responsible. >> that's the thing democrats need to do. we shouldn't hide from this and pretend -- say critical race theory is a silly thing that doesn't exist. we need to say what do we care about in education? we care about educating children to be better american citizens. >> i got handed some breaking news first reported by cnn. prosecutors in georgia investigating donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020
interviewed several individuals who served as fake gop electors in that state. fulton county d.a. appears to be trying to determine whether the pro trump electors in georgia had any knowledge their actions may have been part of an illegal plot to overturn joe biden's victory. that's a source talking to cnn. president biden won georgia by nearly 12,000 votes. that didn't stop donald trump from calling brad raffensperger and asking him to find the 11,780 votes he needed to flip that. what are you hearing in georgia about the state or pace of this investigation? >> that it is absolutely ongoing and that, you know, the district attorney is being very diligent and thorough to put together a
case that explains what exactly happened down there. we know what didn't happen. the election was not rigged or stolen down in georgia despite the former president's best efforts. among those efforts was to try to criminalize fulton county, the blackest county in georgia, the one that was very rich for democrats and one that he and his allies tried to pass as corrupt, as incompetent and now we're seeing that that very county is where, you know, actual election misconduct may have happened, you know, as it pertained to trump and his supporters. i think, you know, this investigation is very much under way and i think we should absolutely stay tuned to what comes out of fulton county
around the big lie and what is uncovered in terms of the truth which has been verified over and over and over again in georgia that the election was absolutely safe, secure and accurate, but that there -- possibly, if there was evidence of voter fraud, it may, in fact, be on the other side. >> attempted and mail vote fraud for sure. in the last hour "the washington post" reported that these fact electors these are the last prongs of the active investigation in congress before those public hearings start. it's interesting when the criminal investigation and congressional investigation intersect. matt dowd, i appreciate your blunt truths. erin haines, thank you for spending time with us today. shifting gears to ukraine
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lemony, lemons. and never wonder if you got a good deal. because you did. we need to reduce plastic waste in the environment. that's why at america's beverage companies, our bottles are made to be re-made. not all plastic is the same. we're carefully designing our bottles to be 100% recyclable, including the caps. they're collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles. that completes the circle and reduces plastic waste. please help us get every bottle back. we all saw the pictures. we all know what happened. but it's that first case of accountability, direct accountability for those horrible crimes that will be probably very inspiring for
people to see that there is justice and there is punishment, unavoidable punishment for what's happened in kyiv and elsewhere. >> that was our friend, igor novkov speaking about the accountability that the ukrainian people are expecting now looking forward to as that country gets ready for its first war crimes trial in the war. the country will try a 21-year-old russian soldier who is in custody for firing several shots with his rifle from his car, killing an unarmed resident in february. the office of the prosecutor general did not say how the russian soldier ended up in ukraine's custody, but the crime could hold a sentence of 10 to 15 years in prison. let's bring in correspondent cal perry live from kyiv. cal, tell me how the investigations that you've covered, some of this really
grisly friends work from bucha and other parts of the country. is all of that aimed towards ukraine's criminal trials for russian soldiers? or is any of it in collaboration with the international criminal court or other international bodies? or do they plan to try all these russian war crimes in ukraine? >> reporter: i think it's a combination of all the things that you are laying out. but it's also a search for answers. and when you look at what's happening across the country -- we've entered this period now where people are trying to return to their homes. in the city of kyiv and surrounding suburbs you have two-thirds of residents returned. that's some 2 million people on their way back here. so many of them are mourning dead relatives, but all of them are trying to search for answers. that is what i think you're going to see in this trial. it's a way for people to try to come to terms with what happened and the death that occurred here. it's a way to send a message to russia that there will be accountability for the soldiers
here. russia will spin this and say it's a one-sided trial and it's a way to coordinate with the war crimes tribunal. there's a search under way -- we can roll the video now. it's graphic. there's a search for the bodies of russian soldiers to account for that as well. it is this continued search for answers of why did this happen? we were there today in a suburb of kyiv where you can see the body of a russian soldier is being exhumed. this is by a military unit that is tasked with doing this around the country. they have found 200 bodies in just five districts. most of those bodies, they tell us, are from ages of 20 and 21-year-old males. this is now the central place where they are storing these bodies. there are 130 bodies in six train cars in a location outside of kyiv. the russians, according to ukrainian officials, don't want the bodies back. it is something that is difficult to understand here and it is something that's difficult to figure out what to do with these bodies. most of them do not have identification on them. they do not have their unit patches on them, so it's a
forensic effort to decipher why this person was sent, where their family is. ukrainian officials are asking you for dna evidence to be supplied by the russians, but they are not responding. people are still searching for answers to why this happened, who was sent here from russia, what were the circumstances that those soldiers were sent here from. this is of course a larger picture of what is a tragedy here. we don't know how many russian soldiers were killed, but it could number some 15,000 according to officials in ukraine and we don't know where the bodies of those soldiers are, nicole. >> cal, it gets right to the heart of the complication of vladimir putin's information hold on russia. i mean, i don't know russian mothers, but i know a mother's desire to know what happened to her son if he died in a war. how do you get the information into russia? i can't imagine any mother or father not providing dna evidence to identify the body of what could be her son. >> reporter: if they know that
the son, brother, father has been killed. ukrainian officials telling us they have evidence that russia is towing with them mobile crematoriums. they're burning the bodies in combat, just getting rid of them instead returning them home to russia. the other thing is -- i wouldn't say there's a great sympathy for dead russian soldiers, because there's not. the villagers said, good, they got what they deserved. but i think there's an understanding that this is an epic tragedy , that young russian soldiers who were sent here either against their will or who were lied to or had their identification taken or who were told they were coming for different reasons , this young soldiers was found with an atm card. clearly he thought at some point he would be using an atm machine in ukraine. it paints the picture that this is a brutal, horrifying war where there is a great deal of death on both sides and there are still people dying in the eastern part of it country. but it is something that the
ukrainian government is grappling through investigations. >> it is just fascinating. just the reality of these deaths in russia you would think might be one of the ways to turn opinion against this war. cal perry live for us in kyiv, thank you so much. please stay safe. rick stang gol, thank you for being at the table. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. three times the electorlytes and half the sugar. ♪♪ pedialyte powder packs. feel better fast. you never know what opportunities pedialyte powder packs. life will send your way. but if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis or psoriatic arthritis, enbrel can help you say i'm in for what's next. ready to create a bigger world? -i'm in. ready to earn that “world's greatest dad” mug? -i'm in. care to play a bigger role in this community? -i'm in. enbrel helps relieve joint pain, helps stop permanent joint damage, and helps skin get clearer in psoriatic arthritis.
with less pain, you're free to join in. enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. tell your doctor if you've been someplace where fungal infections are common or if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure or if you have persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. when opportunities come your way, be ready to say i'm in for what's next. ask your doctor about enbrel. we need to reduce plastic waste in the environment. that's why at america's beverage companies, our bottles are made to be re-made. not all plastic is the same. we're carefully designing our bottles
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thank you so much for letting us into your homes on this wednesday. we're grateful. "the beat" with jason johnson in for ari starts right now. hi, jason. >> hi, nicole. thank you so much. welcome back to "the beat." we start with explosive newry released audio from republican senator lindsey graham slamming and condemning trump on january 6th, shocker. we know graham is one of the greatest trump suck-ups in the game. here's how he sounded on maga insurrection day last year. >> he's misjudged