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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 11, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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transparent. but as some journalists who have long observe the region have noted, history does not offer much hope in that regard. the committee to protect journalist reports that 17 your lungs have been killed armored id since the start of this. hear our deepest condolences to the abu akleh's loved ones. abu akleh's loved ones all in starts. now >> tonight on all in -- >> voila, we have enough votes to barely get over the finish line. >> the so-called architect of donald trump's coup, in his own words, tonight the explosive new emails from john eastman, and then, how lawmakers are working to overturn the vote and may be on the verge of taking over the states elections. plus, the demands for answers as a palestinian american journalist is killed in the west bank. and how did lindsey graham get caught on tape endorsing joe biden? >> totally.
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he would maybe be the best person to have. i mean, how mad can you get that joe biden? >> and a remarkable scene inside the capital, warehouse members protested senators on their way to vote down a federal right to abortion. all in starts right now. >> good evening everyone, i'm ayman mohyeldin, in new york, in for chris hayes. the ex president knew the conclusion he wanted. he wanted to overturn the results of a free and fair election. he wanted to install himself as the winner. he just needed to manufacture a way to get there. and that is where john eastman comes into the picture. eastman, of course, is a lawyer, and a die hard trump ally who was the architect behind much of the attempted coup and in fact he even spoke at trump's january 6th rally at the lips, the one where trump incited the
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insurrection. >> all we are demanding of vice president pence is an afternoon at 1:00, we are in he let the legislatures of the states look into this, so that we get to the bottom of it, and americans will find out whether they have control of the government or not. we no longer live in a self governing republic if we cannot get the answer to this question. this is bigger than president trump. it is a very essence of our republican former government and it has to be done. and anybody that is not willing to stand up and do it does not deserve to be in the office. >> all right, so, that is what eastman was saying publicly. but more notably is the work that he summoned was doing behind the scenes. he altered the now infamous coup memo, where he actually urged then vice president mike pence pence to literally throw at the results from seven states that joe biden had one before he, quote, gavels president trump as reelected.
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in order for that scheme to have work, trump and eastman needed to get the states on board. they needed republican legislators in the seven states to object to the official count, saying that biden won. and that is where this latest revelation comes into focus. according to a trove of eastman's emails, first reported by the denver post and published by politico, he starts corresponding with a republican pennsylvania legislator, a guy named -- diamond. eastman is basically trying to help diamond come up with a way to help overturn the 80,000 vote victory of joe biden in pennsylvania. he suggested that the state justice basically throw out some of the boats votes for biden. eastman proposed a convoluted scheme in which the state republicans would use trump's bogus planes claims of fraud as a bogus pretext and, to do so, complicated math would result in an absentee number of
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ballots being tossed out. then, even writes, quote, having done that matt, lead you up to the significant trumped lee that would bolster the argument for the legislature adopting a slate of trump electors. perfectly within your authority to do anyway, but now it is bolstered by the untainted popular vote. that would help provide some cover. so, eastman is basically saying here that the states can just throw out biden's victory for any reason. but, as he pointed out, they needed cover. and an official reason to do so. that is the logic behind trump's big lie, the one that focused on election fraud. and that was basically to provide cover for the states to change those results and get him to be the winner. and eastman was essentially doing a slightly more sophisticated version of trump's call to georgia secretary of state -- we all remember that one, the one where he basically told brad raffensperger to find the
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votes. and i need to win. as one member of the bipartisan committee investigating january 6th, democrat jamie raskin of maryland, told washington post, quote, eastman was not doing anything that trump himself was not doing. they are both trying to get officials in the electoral process to substitute a counterfeit for the actual vote totals. right now, at this moment, the committee is fighting a legal battle to obtain more of eastman's emails from the days leading up to january 6th. every new piece of information that the committee finds about these coup plotters is damning. and this is just yet another example of how they are trying to use the levers of power and ketone trump the white house. and it is mostly by sheer luck -- and quite honestly, the willingness of a handful of people to actually stand up to trump, to say that that plot they did not work. but trump -- or perhaps even some future
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republican -- is quite free to try again. and eastman already wrote the blueprint for whoever wants to use it. as congressman raskin pointed, quote, this shows the country one more strategic booby trapped that was improvised by trump's team, that can sit there, fully used by bad faith actors and future elections. harry lippman is a former u.s. attorney for the western district of pennsylvania deputies isn't attorney general of the president clinton. he is currently a legal affairs comments for the los angeles times and host of the talking feds podcast. he joins me now. it's great to see you again, thank you so much for making time, harry litman. greg stein puts it in the washington post that eastman advises a pennsylvania legislator to use a complex formula based on treating mailed in ballots as illegitimate. and to basically extrapolate that enough -- biden votes are invalid, to show that trump won the popular vote. how would a scheme like that even, potentially, be
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challenged? when you are talking about tens of thousands of ballots that you are trying to invalidate? >> it would be a huge mess. and that's probably what he was pointing for, though ironically, even under his bogus scheme they would not have gotten to where they needed. but we have been thinking about eastman in terms of pants. he's largely the architect of the theory and then he harangues pinches people after saying that they are responsible for the actual why it. this is before -- this is in december. and remember, a judge has already held that eastman probably committed crimes and held up what what he was doing with pence was a coup in search of a legal theory. this is a coup in search of a different legal theory. and you are really right, ayman, to analogize it to the raffensperger case. just give me 11,780 votes. he basically went to diamond in pennsylvania and said, oh, do a lot of whereas and here for words, and say that you do not
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have confidence in some of the absentee votes. and that they are for, you throw them all out just enough to get over to the line! of course, that's wrong. but that would have been the idea. >> right! >> that state legislatures would have to express some doubt and how the apple cortese upset. now we start from scratch. that, again, is a whole different theory that he was applying before january 6th. and those of the emails that we basically do not have. we got these by chance through a colorado foia but there is a lot more that the committee has not seen. >> yeah. okay, let me ask you about that. i am not a lawyer. you are. but eastman referred to the pennsylvania scheme as a, quote, cover. and for me, that is the kind of word -- again, i am not a lawyer -- but doesn't that word give the whole game away? when you are talking about a scheme and you are saying that it is a cover? >> yeah, you do not have to be a lawyer for that.
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he has done it in other places. so, cover exactly means that -- that this is equivalent of, i just need 11,780 votes. it is reverse engineered, very plainly, to get over a finish line, either to then have the state to do it too wanted to at least to create the kind of chaos with all the chess pieces being upset. that's what he was trying to do with pence. and so he is still trying to go after, at this guy. he is shameless and there is no theory that he will not endorse. but it is important that this is a whole other one that he it was trying to sell him before he focused on pence. >> and let me ask you really quickly, we have about under a minute left. this is a point that congressman raskin has talked about. it is something i've talked about as well. and this is basically a blueprint. because if trump was not smart enough to put it off in 2020 -- either him in 2024 or whoever replaces him, someone even more evil and maniacal --
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they could pull it off. and is just waiting for the next presidential candidate. what,, then is to stop them? have we done anything in the last two years to prevent that scheme from being executed by a future, more savvy or president? >> not yet. and again, the strategy is to create confusion and to take it from there. what we need to do is really clarify. it is already illegal, amen, but if they really want to clarify the famously confusing electoral count act of 1887, then that would make it clear that they could not have even started with this bogus scheme. >> thank you so much for your, time harry litman, i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> i appreciate your insights. >> congresswoman elaine luria, is a democrat from virginia, she sits on the bipartisan committee investigating the january 6th insurrection and she joins me now. congressman congresswoman gloria, thank you. there is some damaging information of these emails published by politico. how do erasing these emails and their contents?
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>> would i would say is that the 100,000 documents that the committee has received -- i cannot comment on specifics. but when i would say -- and i've said this before -- these things of the tip of the iceberg. they paint a really clear picture, as you just discussed, of let's just find the votes. of let's find a factor by which we can multiply the votes and then do the math. that is not how you do elections. you do not just do the matt under some different equations come out with a result that you want and pick different electors. so, this whole scheme, which he clearly, personally admits is a cover, essentially for stealing the election, it is to keep part of the story that we have to tell, through the committee. and that will go into much more depth when the committee has hearings in june. >> can you tell us a bit about the thrust of what the committee is hoping to learn from the emails that eastman has not yet turned over? >> well, if every email we get from him is a treasure trove of
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details about how he's going to try to coerce different state legislators, and of how to change the vote, and of how to make excuses for how you can he's out as a cover, you can imagine if, through this voyage quest, that there are several that have been made public. there are tens of thousands that are part of this litigation process that is ongoing, to receive documents from eastman. so, i think that we will discover a lot more in jest -- in my personal opinion -- in some similar correspondence, and some maybe more nefarious tricks to come that could affect the outcome of the vote and these could be used to influence what -- >> and so it seems that there were, congresswoman, a lot of coconspirators in trump's attempt to wanted to push this coup through. but from how i read it, eastman seems like he may have been one of -- if not the most --
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crucial person in this scheme. is that your sense as well? are you able to paint a clearer picture for us around the coconspirators and we are eastman fit into that circle? >> what i can say that he was clearly a central figure in this plot. just the volume of emails that we know exists and the types of people that he was reaching to in this case, like a legislator in pennsylvania, and the volume, and the content that we are aware of in previous discussions, they show that he is a key cog in this machine that was trying to piece together a different election result and what the voters had decided when they went to the polls that day. >> and finally, i have to ask you about those public hearings that are set to start at about a month. what more does the committee need before then? and will you start those hearings regardless of whether you finish your work in trying to get to the bottom of this? >> so, we are planning to start the hearings in early june, around june 9th.
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as we approach the hearings, we are still conducting interviews. we are still receiving documents. there are still information that is important to the work of the committee. and this work in june is for us to lay out the work and the work product on the picture with the information that we have received over the course of the year over the course of our investigation. but we will continue to pursue the truth. and we will get more information and can to talk to witnesses. and all information that we gather will collectively go into the report later on in the hearing. >> all right, congressman congresswoman elaine luria, thank you for your insights. >> thank you. >> it is important to remember here that the attempts at election subversion have actually not stopped with the removal of president trump. many in the maga crew who tried to steal 2020 are now attempting to gain control over elections in states like pennsylvania, and in fact the state representative who john eastman was just emailing him with about the turnover, believe it or not, is actually running for higher office in that state and he isn't the
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new set of emails show that the ex presidents top coup plotting lawyer, john eastman, which trying all he could to keep donald trump in power. the emails, again, as we first mentioned, reported first by the denver post, include this man -- pennsylvania state
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representative named ross diamond, who asked for eastman's help in searching for legislative solutions to our current national predicament. that national predicament, you might wonder, was the peaceful transition of power after a legitimate election, where there was no voter fraud. that man, russ diamond is running for the lieutenant governor of pennsylvania nomination as we speak and he's not the only coup plot to running for a promotion. you have state senator doug mastriano, who wants to be the republican candidate for governor, despite his republican involvement in trying to overturn votes. mastriano is also at the capitol on january 6th during the riot, and after the police lines were breached. he then tried to use his position in the senate to attempt in arizona-style audit of pennsylvania's election, even after joe biden's inauguration. mastriano was the top trump ally in state government working to find nonexistent
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voter fraud. he was even subpoenaed by the january 6th committee over attempts to arrange for an alternate slate of electors in that state, though he missed that scheduled deposition. but even with trump staying neutral so far, mastriano's maga style politics have launched him as the current front-runner in that race. in a recent debate, he gave a preview of how pennsylvania elections process would actually change if he got that position. watch. >> there is a seven or eight pieces peace legislation that i have the title of. but i get to be secretary of state? the law is going to clean up. the laws are going to restate. we are going to stall all over again with registration. i saw better elections in pennsylvania afghanistan and pennsylvania. >> holly otterbein is a reporter for politico and she previously worked at the philadelphia inquirer. she has been covering pennsylvania races and she joins me now. holly, it is great to see you, i appreciate you making some time for us.
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you wrote about pennsylvania republicans in the scramble to prevent mastriano from being that now money, but how are they doing with that effort? >> yeah. remember the 2020 presidential election for the democratic nominee? when bernie sanders was winning states and democrats freaked out? and then you had a bunch of candidates drop out and unite behind joe biden to defeat bernie sanders? that is basically with the republicans in pennsylvania are trying for here with mastriano. they are very concerned about him becoming the nominee and ruining the chances for the fall. so, the top republicans -- the county level and low-key local level and even gubernatorial levels -- they have all had conversations about, hey, can we unite around one person? right now, mastriano is betting benefiting from a splintered vote. they are four top candidates for governor. there is even more than that in the single digits.
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they are all splitting the vote. and mastriano has dedicated base of 30% that is not going anywhere. and they want to try to, basically, do what the democrats did in 2020. and unite behind one candidate. right now, i think that they may have limited success -- two of the candidates are scheduled to have a appearance tomorrow. we know where that is going. but i think it is probably unlikely that you were actually going to see all of them unite behind one, mastriano type candidate at this point. >> can you shed some light -- and i know you have reported that the pa republicans, as you are saying, worry that the party could be doing it chances in november by picking a polarizing candidate with -limited appeal. why do this it about him, for those of us not versed in pennsylvania politics, what is it about mastriano that gives even republicans this moment of pause? let alone gives them the statewide race pause?
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>> well, he is the face of the movement of pennsylvania, to overturn the 2020 election. and like you said, he was there at the capitol on january 6th. he has been subpoenaed by the congressional committee investigating the attack. even if republicans -- and many of them do like what he was trying to do there. but they don't want to be talking about those things in the general election during the fall. they want to talk about gas prices, inflation hitting record highs. and about crime going up across the country. they do not want this focus to be on january 6th, on all of these things that make doug mastriano so controversial. he is also sort of a divisive candidate within the republican party itself. he actually voted for the legislation to legalize no excuse mail voting. before that became something you could not do in the republican party. and so a lot of republicans are upset with him for doing that. they also think that he does
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not have a wheel campaign operation. he has spent less than $300,000 on tv ads. he doesn't interact with the press at all. and so they are worried about him going up against josh shapiro, the current attorney general of pennsylvania, the presumptive democratic gubernatorial nominee, who has just a giant war chest. he has no real competition and has a very professional operation. >> really quickly -- and we are almost out of time -- do we know why trump has not yet endorsed a candidate in this race? i mean, he does loom large over pennsylvania politics and he has made an endorsement for the senate race. it's a swing state but he still has not endorsed a candidate. what gives, do you think? >> it is always hard to get into the mind of donald trump. >> right! >> the rumors in pennsylvania are that his loyalties are a bit split, perhaps.
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or that he may not be that impressed with any of the candidates. one of the top candidates he actually endorsed in 2019 for another race but went on to lose. you've got mastriano who is controversial in the party. you've got some other folks. he perhaps has not had the best interactions. again, i am reluctant to get into his head. but that is kind of where republicans in the state are talking about. >> all right, thank you so much, holly otterbein, we great eerie greatly appreciate your insights. >> thank you. >> and as -- abortion rights in this country, what is left for congress to do? the house fight and the house members protesting in the halls of capitol hail, after this. ail, after this. allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good.
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[gusts of wind] [ding] i'm dan o'dowd and i approved this message. tesla's full self- driving technology. the washington post reported on "owners of teslas fighting for control..." "i'm trying..." watch this tesla "slam into a bike lane bollard..." "oh [bleeped f***]" this one "fails to stop for a pedestrian in a crosswalk." "experts see deep flaws." "that was the worst thing i've ever seen in my life." to stop tesla's full self-driving software... this morning i woke up to the vote dan o'dowd for u.s. senate. being connected. it's vital for every student. so for superintendent of public instruction, tony thurmond, it's a top priority. closing the digital divide, expanding internet access for low-income students and in rural areas. it's why thurmond helped deliver
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more than a million devices and connected 900,000 students to broadband over the last two years - to enable online learning. more than 45,000 laptops went to low-income students. re-elect tony thurmond. he's making our public schools news of the killing of serena block it. sharon was a veteran journalist for al jazeera, and she was a mentor, colleague, and, above all, she was my friend. chireno is killed when she was doing her job reporting on an israeli military raid taking place in the occupied bank. her killing sparked outrage around the world and al jazeera said these israeli military targeted sure mean and the government acknowledged it was conducting an operation in the area but said the palestinian american reporter might have
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been killed by palestinian militants during the gunfight. even though all the eyewitnesses around serene at the time including nearby journalists reporting on that raid, refuted the israeli claim. these really military later backtracked on that, saying it is not possible to determine how shareen abu aklen was killed at this point. i'm not going to comment on who killed serene. but i'm going to tell you who in my opinion should not investigate her death, and that is the israeli military and the government. time and time again we have seen the israeli military in all behave with impunity in the palestinian territories. it goes unchecked. no officers are chat held accountable. no justice is served. we hear, as we did yet again, today american officials condemn an call for investigations into israeli abuses. but his history has shown, there is rarely, if ever, justice for the killing of palestinians, whether they are
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american or not, quite frankly. and today the spokesman for the israeli military, rod co-chair, seemingly trying to explain the tragedy, by saying shireen abu akleh was working amid armed palestinians. they are armed with cameras, if you permit me to say so. though are those are his words, not my words. armed with cameras is exactly how journalists go to war. the only danger they pose is to anyone who would benefit from the horrors and injustices of war remaining hidden from the outside world. it is only because of them, those journalists on the ground today, who are armed with those cameras, that we here in new york and around the world know some of the circumstances of shireen abu akleh's death. and recently a ukrainian journalist was killed while covering the coverage of the country did. anyone apply the journalist was in the wrong for what they were
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doing and why they were doing it? no one would expect the russians to barely carry out an investigation of the american journalist that was killed there. and if history is any indicator, no one should expect israel to carry out this investigation impartially. nobody would take that seriously but the killing of journalists, whether in mexico or the ukraine or the occupied palestinian territories, that must be condemned. and investigated. but not by the countries accused of allegedly killing them, but by independent bodies that claim to uphold free speech at the right to free press, as fundamental human rights. here in this country we owe that to our own citizens, whose taxes are used to bankroll the israeli military in the palestinian authority, to demand answers when americans are killed, even when it is at the hands of our allies. now today, mourners escorted's shireen flag draped body.
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it was covered with a flak jacket that she was wearing, clearly marked press. shireen dyed to protect that fundamental freedom. she was a fearless reporter who i got to know when i was based in jerusalem. in fact, she actually took me under her wing and taught me so much about the region and the conflict, as new route newsroom colleagues. we became friends. she was kind. she was gracious. she was hilarious. she was compassionate. her humanity was unmatched and reflected in the people she covered and the stories she told were nearly 25 years reporting on the front lines of the israeli, palestinian conflict. and while she became a household name across the arab speaking world, she also became a role model for millions of young children who aspired to be journalists in one of the most fraught regions of the world to be a journalist. here she is featured in this algeria 25th anniversary video in her own words.
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that is who should mean was. and that is how she will be remembered. and here is shireen on a recent trip to new york during the holidays, posing legally outside the christmas tree, right outside our studios at rockefeller center. and this is how i will remember my friend. scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good.
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if you're living with hiv, keep loving who you are. and ask your doctor if biktarvy is right for you. my body, my decision. >> my rights, my decision. >> all right, this is a scene that does not happen in the united states capitol, you have members of the house of representatives basically crossing over to the senate side to shout in protest that the senators who are about to cast the vote to decide whether or not abortion would remain legal after the supreme court is done with it. the senate, though, as expected, voted against women's health protection act and even though the vast majority of americans -- a whopping 61% supported it -- with vice president kamala
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harris presided, the vote came down 49 to 51. the west virginia democrat joe manchin voted against protecting the women's health of the majority of the country. -- i'm joined by sheila jackson lee of texas. thank you for joining, us congresswoman. now that the republicans of effectively kill this bill, with manchin on their side, what, if anything, can democrats do to protect women's rights in this country? >> first of all, thank you for having me. i think that the announcement from that vote should be that the freedom of women in this nation has just been denied. that women do not have freedom, freedom over their own bodies, freedom over their own thoughts and brains. and i think that that is going to wring loudly and clearly as we march toward the november month of 2022. every single republican voted
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against the women's health protection act, it should be remembered. that's a simple bill that would, again, allow women to be treated as human beings with human dignity and human rights and women's rights being respected. so, democrats are not going to allow this to be the case. i happen to be someone who supports the elimination of the filibuster. and of course, republicans have throttled that. so, the point should be made that we will incrementally expand the knowledge of who has stopped you from getting an abortion, and what has stopped you from getting an abortion. it is the republicans in the senate -- and potentially the supreme court, where alito has said that constitutional rights here are not necessarily fundamental. can you believe it? that means we are going down a slippery slope that the constitution may be shredded in our very faces. that is not going to be allowed. you can see that people are angry and anguished. we want to channel that into
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ensuring that republicans do not win and that democrats do win. we did not bring this on america. republicans did. we did not bring the some republicans. they did. so, we will put forward other legislative initiatives. we will hear the stories of women who are victims. and we will educate americans to ensure that to the victory go in the women, and women's reproductive rights. >> let me ask you had two of those things. the filibuster and your legislative agenda. quite honestly, the house has sent several messages measures that were priorities in the presidents domestic agenda, including build back better and the voting rights bill. they sent those to the senate to get something done on them, only to see them stall out. how can congress function if republicans can simply say that they will vote for something and kill a vote legislatively? while you also have senators like manchin and sinema who
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refused to do away with the filibuster? >> i don't want the american people to think that at all. -- i am frankly not going to give up on senators sinema and manchin. or on senator schumer. he is not going to either. and i think american people's voices need to be raised collectively. every senator will need to be held responsible, on recognizing whether it is constitutional rights, the rights to privacy, it's superior above any individual personal thoughts that might cause you, number one, to not get rid of the filibuster -- the filibuster should have been gone for a voting rights. the filibuster certainly should be gone for the right to privacy. and also for the rights to fundamental constitutional rights. i have introduced a bill that the senate has as well. that is the anti vigilante stalking bill, because in addition to the whole hp ate -- that his, the texas is horrible
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bill that has caused women to flee texas to seek reproductive care, they have now in essence metastasized the stalking part of it. that is the part that will allow someone to receive a bounty -- a reward, money -- if they stop people who are seeking and reproductive rights. -- and hence penalties for anyone who does that, and add that to the federal and the stalking bill. we want you to know that it is criminally illegal to stop a woman from seeking reproductive rights and needs. we are going to seek keep putting forward bills, as much as necessary. and i hope that republicans would not want to vote against them. we as well want to make sure that these stories of victims, and of persons, who have had the personal needs to address the reproductive rights, that those stories need to be told.
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and the question will be asked, what's side of history do want to be on? the side of the constitution? or the side of denying freedom to women? or not? >> congresswoman sheila jackson lee of texas, thank you so much for your time. i appreciate you joining us. >> and i thank you for having me. >> next, tapes from downtown's biggest lacking in the senate. throwing his support behind joe biden? what he said after this. at he said after this. and interactive charts to give you an edge. 24/7 support when you need it the most. plus, zero-dollar commissions for online u.s. listed stocks. [ding] get e*trade from morgan stanley and start trading today. never settle with power e*trade. it has powerful, easy-to-use tools to help you find opportunities, 24/7 support when you need answers, plus some of the lowest options in futures contract prices around. [ding] get e*trade from morgan stanley and start trading today.
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the tapes revealing exactly what donald trump's allies in the house were saying behind closed doors after the january 6th insurrection, and now we are getting a look inside the senate and what they were saying. new york times reporters jonathan alexander and virus burns, this will not pass, have just released an audio recording of senator lindsey graham of south carolina on january 6th, just after the riot, saying that president joe biden is exactly what the country needed. >> will actually come out of this thing stronger. moments like this reset. people will calm down. people will say i don't want to be associated with that. this is a group within a group. what this does, there will be a rally in effect with the law in the country that says we're
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better than this. >> totally, he'll be maybe the best person to have, right. i mean, how mad can you get it joe biden? >> all right, so 16 minutes after the attack on the capitol, when those words were uttered by senator lindsey graham, that position is not clearly the politics of most of the republican party, probably not even that of send nutter lindsey graham himself. michelle goldberg writes about politics, gendered, social issues, and charles writes about politics and social justice. they both join me now. michelle, i will start with you. what do you make of these comments from lindsey graham praising joe biden behind the scenes? it's a very different tune than what he has been singing in public about trump and him being the future of our party. either we get with him, or we're out. >> look, it's impossible. i've completely lost my
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capacity to be either shocked or surprised. row at republican hypocrisy. it's to be expected at this point. i think it's worth pointing out that when lindsey graham says this is a moment to reset, that was a choice and that could have been a moment to reset if the republican party had decided to seize it, had decided that that was what they wanted to do. they made a choice that it was more important to feed donald trump's egos and fantasies then drive the country even further into madness than to use that opportunity to draw a line under the chaos of the previous four years. >> so charles, we learned today through these john eastman emails, that he pressured pennsylvania state lawmakers to throw out absentee ballots and give trump a win. does that surprise you when you
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see the degree to which the scheming was taking place behind the scenes? >> i don't think it is surprising as much it is shocking. it should be a warning for everyone heading into 2024. what he was asking the representatives, the officials in pennsylvania to do is precisely what could be done if we had people who were open to the idea. what we see now is multiple people across the country who are people who believe that the election should have been overturned, believe the donald trump won, or at least say they believe that, and they are running for offices where they are put in the position to do exactly what eastman was asking to be done. so it's less about me being shocked that they were trying to steal the election in 2020. i am very convinced of that. and every time something comes out it confirms that. what to me is something
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everyone should be standing up and saying hold on wait a minute about, is that it could actually happen in 2024. >> michelle, let's turn to the latest on the abortion rights debate in this country. today joe manchin did what joe manchin does, which is basically vote with republicans to reject a bill for abortion nationwide. i want to play with you what he said before the vote. take a listen. >> the bill we have today, the vote on, in the self protection act, i respect people who support, but make no mistake. it is not roe v. wade. it is an expansion. 500 state laws off the books. it expands abortion. it's just disappointing that we're going to be voting on a piece of legislation which i will not vote for today. but. i was hopeful for that. >> that is what joe manchin
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does. he obfuscate a little bit some of the details of what this is really about. and so it begs the question, how can democrats say they are stewards of abortion rights if their own party member defects and votes against it? >> i think there's a difference between ineffectual and hypocritical. the democratic party are biologic the stewards of reproductive rights. the majority support reproductive rights. they are pointing in confirming judges that will defend what is left of reproductive rights after roe v. wade is overturned. they are trying to codify reproductive rights at the state level wherever they can. i don't think anybody should be comparing them to -- . i don't really understand the point of putting this up to a
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vote if you can't get all the democrats on board. i think there is this idea that people are going to publish republicans for this. but the structure of the senate and senate means republicans don't need to appeal to a majority of the country. that's the reason that we are in this situation that we are in. at the same time, this is all theater because even if we did have a majority to pass this bill we don't have a majority to break the filibuster. in order to actually enact it. as long as there are members of the democratic party, joe manchin and kyrsten sinema, who put these recondite procedural techniques ahead of being actually being able to pass legislation, there is, frankly, very little that congressional democrats can do.
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>> charles, in your recent piece about the supreme court, you write, quote, the court is a product of the framers of the constitution. and for all their flashes of brilliance, they made them terribly flood decisions about our government. that's why originalist, those who believe the judgment by the court must conform to how the founders understood the constitution when it was written, are so dangerous. the original lists know that they can turn that clock back. they know the horrendous history of the court, and they want it to rise again. some very powerful words there. but what are you most concerned about as we sit on the precipice of losing abortion rights in america? and what that might mean for originals on the court? >> there's nothing to stop them. the supreme court is a counsel unto itself. there are very few checks on it other than to replace members when they die or resign. so there is nothing really to
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stop them. they don't bow to public pressure. they are not a collective. and you now have people on the court, five of the nine are there because of people who didn't even win the popular vote. they are pushing for an agenda that doesn't respect the president. even some of them said before congress, so there is nothing to stop it. this is indeed an invasion of privacy issue, at least for the courts, on abortion. there are a lot of other decisions that are based on the position of privacy. what stops the court from pulling back? >> yeah, that's exactly the question i think is on everyone's mind as the story continues to develop. we charles blow, michelle goldberg, thank you very much. we greatly appreciated your