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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 19, 2022 12:00am-1:00am PDT

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excellent advice from dr. taylor swift, taking us off the air this evening. and on that good note i wish you all a good night from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with us also at the end of tomorrow. for staying up late with u also at the end of tomorrow. tonight on all in. the danger for american democracy that hasn't fully sunk in yet. >> and he freedom loving americans in the house tonight? >> tonight, the threat the republican nominee for governor in pennsylvania could pose, and why democrats may be underestimating his chances of winning. then, as madison cawthorn exits congress, and doctor oz clanks to home, how trumpism, not trump, is winning elections. plus, congressman jamie raskin on the escalation of the doj investigation into january 6th. and how a right wing frenzy
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killed the combat of online misinformation. the woman who is tasked to lead that effort, nina jankowicz, joins me exclusively, as all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, the biggest worry from last night's primary elections, is that a full out insurrectionist coup plotter is now a stone's throw away from running one of the most important swing states in the country, pennsylvania. his name is doug mastriano, and he's essentially pledged that if the opportunity arises once again to actually successfully pull off a coup, you will be the first in line to do it. right now, he's won the republican gubernatorial primary, pretty handily, about 44% of the vote, about 20 points ahead of his closest competitor in a very crowded field. and so when an avowed ally winds by that kind of margin in the republican primary, we should all take notice. so let's keep in mind, again, trump almost got away with.
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it the only reason the coup did not work, is that there are enough people in key positions of power that wouldn't go along with it. there were just a handful of instances where things could turn out very differently, if georgia's republican secretary of state brad raffensperger ended but trump asked, and found the votes he needed to flip the election. or if georgia's governor brian kemp call it a legislative section, or the board of electors, or the wayne county board of elections, whose members trump had called personally had not certify the results of the election. or of the republican chairman of the maricopa county board of supervisors in arizona, did not defend biden's victory in the state. if any of those circumstances broke differently, say because a coup sympathizer wasn't a key position of power, we would've been almost certainly in a full-blown constitutional crisis, or worse, the end of american democracy as we know it. a person who loses the election retaining power against the will of the people. and i just want to be very
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clear here, because we're in cable news, sometimes you hear hyperbole, just what we're talking about. it's not just a dog master nano, is a radical conservative, he was actively involved in planning the coup of 2020. intimately, one of the most prominent figures in it. not only did he spent thousands of his own campaign funds to organize bus trips to d. c. for the insurrection, he also went himself. you can see him there, marching to the capitol, on january 6th. he says he didn't go in the building but, he came pretty close. he says he spoke with trump at least 15 times between the election in the insurrection, about plans to overturn the results of the election. mastriano introduced legislation to undo the certification of the 2020 election in pennsylvania, which he called compromised and corrupt. >> governor wolf didn't look into any of the allegations, blew them off --
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secretary of state blew off the of the allegations this shenanigans. our ag declared a winner before one vote was counted, so the whole process has been corrupted, nobody cares to see if there was shenanigans, sheeting, fraud, and disenfranchisement. we're gonna rise, up and say, constitutionally we have final say over who the electors are. >> okay, to be clear, this is all nonsense, there were no shenanigans in pennsylvania. but mastriano is saying, we, meaning us in that state legislature are going to throw out the vote in pennsylvania. we the rulers, we the politicians tell the people who will rule them, and they can suck it up and take it. and in doing so, mastriano was saying with trump wanted to hear. in fact, trump then promoted that clip on his official youtube channel. but the legislation to decertify the election failed, and so mastriano moved on to a new plan, audit in the election. he visited that bogus election audit in arizona, and said it was something he wanted to emulate in his state of pennsylvania. >> if we're able to do an audit in pennsylvania, that is the
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model to have. i think we need to -- put everything to rest here, by having one last look, we'll see what comes out of arizona, maybe as my governor and attorney general say. but with so many people raising questions, i don't know how you can press on without addressing that. >> of course, they did come out with the ridiculous audit that said that it was free and fair, and then joe biden won the state. and mastriano was even subpoenaed by the january six committee for his role in the coup. the subpoena reads, we would like to better understand events that you witnessed or in which he participated, and communications we believe you may have had with national, state, and local officials about the outcome of the 2020 election. so this state representative, state senator, doug mastriano, trying to decertify the election, traveled to arizona to tour that bogus election audit, said he spoke to trump
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about a dozen times about the coup, who the january 6th committee says has information relative to their investigation. didn't go to the ellipse rally, but then march to the capitol during the election. he is now one of the two candidates and what it essentially toss-up race to be governor of pennsylvania, we're facing off against the attorney general, josh shapiro. and mark my words, mastriano can win. pennsylvania is a swing state, november is shaping up to be very tough sledding for democrats. this guy could be in charge of the next election. and, if a democratic candidate for president wins pennsylvania in 2024, but what do you think it's gonna happen? like, no one is hiding the ball here. it certainly seems likely that governor doug mastriano would work to undermine that victory. and get this, it gets even worse. because, pennsylvania is one of the states allows the governor to appoint the secretary of state, which means the person overseeing the election will be handpicked by the guy who tried to steal the last one. who says that the democrats stole the 2020 election. in fact, mastriano has already said that whoever he fixed for
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the job will be ordered to erase these states voter rolls, requiring ever pennsylvania wants to vote in 2024 to register with the state. again, no one's been subtle about this. certainly not mastriano and his allies. i want to play one exchange between mastriano and a supporter from his victory party last night, it's a little hard to hear because the music but listen carefully to the end. [inaudible] 20 electoral votes as well. now, pennsylvania only had 19 electoral votes in 2024, but you get the point. charitably, will win pennsylvania. but less charitably, but more plausibly, the way they see it, he controls the governor's mansion, and controls pennsylvania's electoral votes. they are already claiming
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victory. again, by all appearances, they seem to be saying that with mastriano in the governor's mansion, republicans are guaranteed to win the state. because again, go back to when he was doing in 2020, right? he thinks they have it in their power to not allow any other outcome. so, the stakes are really high for this race in november. but, i want to take a moment here to say, setting aside that mastriano is still unfit to be governor, he's hard right extremists, he's got close to kristen nationalist movements, he appeared at a french conspiracy conference with ties to qanon, where organizers played a video claiming the world is experiencing a great awakening that will expose ritual child sacrifice and a global satanic blood culture. an investigation found his personal facebook page was full of bigoted as before we post a memes. in 2018, he showed an article titled quote, a dangerous trend,
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muslims are running for office. in his victory speech last night, mastriano even vowed to pass the so-called bathroom bill, which would ban trans people from using the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity. so again, even if he weren't plotting a coup, this is a guy with very extreme views. i would hazard to say, too extreme for a purple state. but he's basically a coin flip away, from becoming the next governor of pennsylvania. e. l. i. s. a. griswold is a contributor to the new yorker, last year she wrote a piece about mastriano, his politics, and his ties to christian nationalism. she joins me now. elijah, you wrote a great profile on mastriano last year, you did a lot of reporting about the politics in pennsylvania. are you surprised that he won last night, or was that when you were expecting? >> i am not surprised he won, chris, and i'm not surprised, i think we have to be, just as you've been saying, a lot more sanguine about his chances in november.
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there is a groundswell of support for mastriano's ideas here, and we have to be serious about it. >> i want to -- i sort of got to see how genuinely zealous, militant, extreme he is and his views, i don't think this is an act, i think this is who he is. i want to quote from your piece, and have you sort of explain it, just in context. this is a december 2020 protest that he attends, this is after the election. mastriano exerted his followers to do with george washington asked us to do in 1775, appeal to have, and pray to god, we need an intervention. the phrase appeal to having comes from john locke's argument in support of the right to violent revolution in the face of tyranny. mastriano has hung in sign saint appeal to heaven, and the flag sometimes appears behind him during his fireside chats. gives the sense of what this man's worldview is. how extreme he is. >> i mean, it's difficult to say, to use too much hyperbole, just as you said about him. he's not a cynic.
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he is -- actually, he believes he's a profit for this movement, he believes he is leading an army. he has more than 70 facebook pages devoted to him and to his message, and he calls his followers an army. so, this is a man who deeply, deeply believes, that he is sent by god, that he is sent by god to overthrow a democratically elected government. that is why the capital is a symbol of even for him, and it continues to be to this day. and an appeal to heaven is basically saying the god is on our side. god is on our side, let us attack secular democracy which has been taken over by multiculturalism and is no longer legitimate, and therefore we are sent by god to destroy it so he can be more serious. his sense of his mandate is that blatant. >> yeah, and he will be facing off against the current attorney general the state,
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shapiro, we have him as a guest on the program monday night. i'd characterize them as a mainstream democrat, he's not particularly super lefty dude, he last night though, mastriano talked about him, and compared shapiro's vision of pennsylvania to a dictatorial regime like east germany, take a listen. >> the future for pennsylvania for joshua pirro is an oppressive regime, not unlike east germany, where your freedoms are snatched away. so, let's choose this day, let's walk in freedom, let's choose this day and serve the lord. >> i mean, that's, again, if what you're facing is something on that order, a lot of stuff is justified in resistance to that level of tyranny. >> yes, and mastriano isn't using this language by accident. he is a military intelligence analyst who is stationed in eastern money, right?
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he knows what he is doing. he knows the language that he is using. and, moreover, when he was serving in the military, he carried a bible under his arm, he believes that god sent a dust storm to help his unit win against saddam hussein's army during desert storm, because his wife was waging spiritual warfare and prayer at home. these ideas, i think one of the dangers, chris, is they sound so outlandish to us, secular people who think okay, how serious could this be? so we don't take them seriously. these ideas could not be more real to mastriano, and its support last night is an indication that we'd better take them seriously. >> eliza griswold, who wrote that fantastic and deeply reported piece in the new yorker about mastriano last year, thanks so much for taking time for us tonight, i really appreciate it. >> thanks to having me, chris. >> next, what my next guest says the media is getting wrong about the story of the 2022 midterms, and how the retired blogger of mar-a-lago is now getting lapped by the movement he began.
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>> did trump's endorsement mean anything or? >> a little bit, a little bit, but that wasn't my decision. >> i think it did. >> i guess it would be possibly the serve sole purpose of why i went with him. >> i love donald trump, but he hasn't ruined my life, i have my own mind, i can make my own mind. >> i'm not a trumper, i mean i like trump, i voted for him, but i'm not a trumper. but i'm not a trumper.
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politics of the past few months, you've more than likely seen your fair share of surprising, stunning headlines on madison cawthorn, of north carolina. i'm not sure if any of those headlines are as stunning as what we saw last night, mass and thought or lose his primary, casinos to chuck edwards in north carolina. not even a last-minute plea from donald trump earlier this week after he already endorsed them back in march could save cawthorn once the republican party turned on him -- tv's doctor oz to any kind of decisive primary despite the best effort from the ex president and fox news is sean amity to carry him over the finish line. >> i want to thank hannity [applause], sean's like a brother to me, when sean punches through something he really plunges through it he understands exactly how to make a difference he's been doing that the entire campaign.
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much of it behind the scenes, giving me advice on late night conversations, the kind of things that you friends do for each other. >> it's touching really when you think about it, we'll see how that race turns out, when nearly all the votes county oz is leading by less than 8%, they'll likely be a recount. whoever wins, it's clear trump themself cannot just anoint wants, it's because my next guest points out trump, trumpism is the key to success. obama white house communications that are down favourites quote, job didn't to a party of ethnonationalism conspiracy believing authoritarian's, -- authoritarian's before anyone else. and dan, i like the piece you wrote on message box which is your substack, i like it because i agree with it. tell me the basic argument. >> sure, if you watch any of the coverage last night, any of
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the lead up to any of these primaries, everything's coming through the prism of donald trump. what does that say about the journey, is it good for him, is it a nominee but that misses the story which is one of trump 's win or lose, his movement has already succeeded, all the candidates last night in pennsylvania more maga extreme candidates,? right no one is running against in terms donald is trying to be the most authentic or pervasive maga karaoke singer out there. i think there is a tendency in politics, when we really should be against moving that's a long term consequences are, the real danger is not trump. >> i think there is a dynamic relationship between as if you look at the endorsement record i think it's five and three, something like that. fine. but i actually think to the degree that it's adopted by everyone, it reduces the personal power a little bit, it makes it less novel, less uni,
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if everyone sort of saying the same thing, sounding the same notes, hitting on the same thames, do you really need trump to do it, or can you get someone else to do it who's maybe a little less annoying on twitter? >> yeah, i think that's exactly right. i think they, trump, trump ism a, maga extremism already won, everyone saying that so whether it has trump's actual -- doesn't matter because everyone is saying something that trump would say maybe more eloquent, less clumsy, not on twitteror whatever it is. they're saying trump's message which is what the republican party won before trump showed up. i think that is, trump has sort of won the war here, he's still fighting some battles but it doesn't really matter that much. >> on the one place i think that there's some complexity on this. i think it's actually high stake complexity, i'm curious as to what you think, what's on the big lie in 2020, i do think that message has, trump cares about that more than the average primary voter. i think to the extent that he's
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trying to make that a litmus test, there's been pretty big failures on that, he endorsed lieutenant governor in idaho, whose full-out insurrection next against the sitting governor. she -- she lost pretty badly. brian kemp lee bears a grudge over 2020 is getting primaried by solely on the big lie, solely on 2020, new poll has cap up 40 points. i do think in terms of the future american democracy, trump's obsession with that, i think isn't actually quite assured by the republican base, what do you think? >> well, i think it's become an issue of identity politics. if you say that joe biden lend legitimately, if you say the election was not stolen, then you are not an authentic maga republican. that has political consequences. whether some of these candidates, i saw your piece on mastriano at the beginning in the show, he may truly believe that they're just saying it because it's the price of admission --
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once you say it, when push comes to shove youre probably gonna have to do it. that's what's so dangerous about having someone the republicans win in these battleground states that are gonna be decided in close wins in 2024, trump's on the ballot. what do you think >> when you think at the overall environment i would someone like master got, i asked josh appear the other day, are you playing with fire you spent all this money -- that he's like the real trump choice, wink, wink, nudge, nudge -- in that primary with tod aiken who she then went on to defeat. i think it's dangerous to do that, what is your feeling about the political conditions and someone being too extreme in the conditions that were in? >> i don't know that you can be too extreme for the conditions that were in. -- can absolutely win that lace. does he have a slightly smaller chance of doing it in some of the other candidates, i think that's probably the case, but we're playing with live fire here, absolutely.
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one of the people in 2016 and thought that it would be better to run against trump than someone else because would be easier to beat. we ended up with donald trump as president instead of jab bush, marco rubio, or someone else. i agree that doug mastriano the easier to beat than some of the other candidates, but he certainly can win this ways in this environment, and that can scare all of us, yeah. >> battling the big lie on fox -- how fox comes out next month down fiver thank you so much. >> thanks chris. >> next, january 6th when it is interviewed over 1000 people in this investigation, part of justice to see the transcripts as part of a criminal investigation congressman jamie raskin is here, next. raskin is here, next
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a criminal investigation we are conducting. there are a lot of big questions about what is happening here, no maybe nobody better to ask it is congressman jamie raskin, it's good to have you on the program. >> good to be here. >> how should we understand this doj request from the committee, and its implications? >> well, we have conducted nearly 1000 interviews, and have voluminous materials about what took place on january 6th and the days leading up to it. so it suggests to me that there are witnesses who have spoken to us, that they have not spoken to yet, who have some information that may be relevant to crimes they are investigating. and the evidence that is within our possession belongs to the committee, so we can really use it in our discretion. >> are you going to release it? >> well, ultimately, it's going to be the call of the chair,
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and chairman thompson. obviously, we have an interest like every other american does in if effective investigation by the department of justice, and prosecution work behind the events that day. so i'm certain that the chairman, will, in his wisdom, arrive at the right decision about a particular piece of evidence, or maybe things that were interested in seeing what they might share with us. >> there has been multiple reports from multiple outlets, sourced in various different ways, that there is some brewing tension or conflict between your committee, and the department of justice. it's unclear, a little, bit about what that is. is there a turf battle? is it that there are worries about conflict between the two? is that true? is there like before the of or this? how should i interpret that? >> no, i don't detect that. i mean, people always imputing some kind of antagonism to an investigative committee on the
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hill, acting in the same domain that the department of justice investigation is proceeding and. i suppose there is the natural tension that arises from two groups working on a similar project. the truth is, we're deeply invested in the success of the colonel vacillation of prosecution, just as i hope they are invested in our truth telling project that we've been assigned by the house of representatives. so i don't think there is anything serious there. we've been very careful not to do anything that would interfere with the criminal investigation. if people invoke the fifth amendment, we generally accept that. we've not been in a situation where we are getting into complicated offers of immunity, and so on at this point. because we've been able to get the information we need from
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the witnesses. >> there's a little bit of precedent in -- congressional committees, in an inquiry that ended up coming back to bite on the question of criminal prosecution. since i have you here, and it is the day after this primary. one of the people that the committee, i believe, subpoenaed, didn't just request, is state senator doug mastriano, who is now going to be the nominee for governor of the commonwealth of pennsylvania. i just wonder, your thoughts about, given what you know about the plot for the coup, given what is the public record about his avowed support for, it and the things he did in public to do it. the meaning of having someone like this possibly be the head of the state of pennsylvania. >> i, mean it's an astonishing nominee, even from the standpoint of public statements he's made, he's an absolute enthusiast and cheerleader for the insurrection. he opposes abortion in all
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cases, across the board, including rape and incest. he has basically ingested the entire right-wing extremist agenda, and even republicans are struggling to distance themselves from him right now. but it demonstrates the corrosive effect that donald trump has had on the republican electorate. it's just remarkable that there is even a plurality of republicans that were willing to go with such an extremist in fanatic as the nominee of their party. but this underscores one of the themes i hope america will get from our hearings in june, which is this is not ancient history, and it's not even history. this is living history, a struggle that we're still in today, the coup plotters and the insurrectionists are still out there. and the gop under donald trump 's thumb has positioned themselves outside of the
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constitutional order, or they don't accept the validity of elections that don't go in the direction. they are trying to trample the constitutional rights of the people. and they accept violence as a legitimate element, of what they would call political discourse. that is a terrifying breach of the general pact that political parties have had for a long time, which is that we operate within the balance of nonviolence in the law. >> congressman jamie raskin, as always, thank you so much for, time i appreciate it. >> thanks for having me here. >> still ahead, dhs launches an effort to fight disinformation, it's announced and suspended all within three weeks. my exclusive interview with the expert task to lead that -- board and the online campaign that shut down, after this. shut down, after this
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key elections this week including the republican senate primary in pennsylvania, where we're still waiting to see if the trump endorsed celebrity doctor will be declared the winner. there is a wild story coming out of a smaller race and western pennsylvania around pittsburgh, probably -- you have not heard about, it's in the 12th congressional district. where one lobbying group dump millions of dollars to try to take down a democratic candidate in the primary name some early. now 99% of the vote -- in, the state representative
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lee, is ahead by less than 500 votes, last night she called the declared victory although the worst places not yet been called while we wait for a small number of votes to be tallied. in october, lee launched a campaign to fill the seat that was being vacant by retired congressman mike doyle. she did -- what does support of the justice democrats. that's the group that supported congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez's first campaign and we maintain a civet lead in the poll, all way through april when the pro-choice crew, emily's list, released a survey are ed by 25. but then, a torrent of outside money started pouring in and a huge amount of it came from a political action committee for the american israel public affairs committee or aipac, called the united democracy project. the inner reports are then less than a month united democracy project poured more than $1 million into ads in pennsylvania's 12th district. the bulk of the messaging attacked lee, they've just over $100,000 went to material
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supporting her main challenger attorney steve erwin. even in total, united democracy project has spent more than two point $3 million in the race so far. two point $3 million in a random congressional primary race with a top two candidates spent under 1. 4 million combined. and that's as of last filing at the end of april. and, the united democracy project which is an anonymous sounding name has been dumping enormous amounts of cash in other races to, the washington post reports that a texas's 28th congressional district quote, it is spent one point $2 million to help democratic congressman henry cuellar defeat jessica's is there -- last week, and the special weeks in the federal election, 11 district united democracy combined with other pro israel group quote, spent another half million on ads against progress candidate eva turner. to be totally clear, there's nothing lead about this in the 12 years since the supreme court's decision and a case
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called citizens united, outside groups and corporations have been allowed to spend unlimited amounts of money in elections. of course the concern of those who oppose that citizen united 's decision is that there's just something fundamentally corrupting about a single entity spending at this scale and essentially becoming the dominant player in the race. it doesn't matter who they are, it could be any group from the f. no law be -- teachers unions. if the candidate elected, forcing $3 million, $2 million in a race it's pretty clear that person who's elected is pretty beholden. they're incentivized to their public around this particular interest group put them in office. and that's precisely the kind of quid pro quo issue that made citizens united such a terrible ruling, it's re-kavanaugh election system. but there's also something else i find insidious about this particular use of big money, because you see the united democracy part exist to bolster the united states relationship
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with the state of israel. it's the issue they care about, whether the u.s. is staunch an unflinching in its support of israel. and of course there's an act in democratic policy circles about how staunchly support a critical we should be depending on the actions of the israeli government, particularly gas and the occupied west bank. but here's the thing, crucially, that's not the issue that this pack is engaging and when it comes involved in these races. i mean, if the united democracy project, right, one suspend millions of dollars running ads saying summer lays critical of israel. we don't think she should be, support steve or one because he'll stand by israel. well then have had at, that's democracy at least in the citizens united version. that's sort of how it works now, but the thing is they recognize israel is not the top issue for the voters in pennsylvania's 12 district, and so what they did instead was launch an almost comically disingenuous attack claiming lee is not a real
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democrat. >> she calls herself a democrat, but some early says she wanted to dismantle the democratic party, dismantle it. she's done everything in her power to do just that. joe biden was running against trump some early attack biden's character, saying he take us backward, and lee refused to support biden's infrastructure plan that's now rebuilding bridges and roads in western pennsylvania. summer lee more interested in fighting democrats than getting results. -- for the content of this ad. >> i mean, wow, here's this group you tippit never heard of, they're saying some really is bad, because she's not real democrat, we want authentic democrats, but they don't care who a real democrat is. they care about whether some really sufficiently supportive of israel are not, on the home page of their own website, the united democracy project calls themselves quote, an organization comprised of american citizens, democrats, republicans, and independents
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united in belief that america's partnership with our democratic ally israel benefits both countries. a spokesperson was exceedingly clear about their motivation in a recent in the washington post, our goal is to big the biggest bipartisan coalition in congress for the u.s. israel relationship. again, that's their goal, that's what they care about, they care about that over anything else the point where they've endorsed over 100 republican candidates who voted to overturn the 2020 election results after the insurrection. again, it's a free country that's the right, they can support whatever they want, okay, but no one should be taking any lectures from them about who and who is not a real democrat. we should all be really clear about what this is really about, because it's gonna keep happening. ppening.
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homeland security announced the creation of a disinformation governance board. it would be an entity that worked to combat the very real, dangerous issue of disinformation online and elsewhere, with the stated goal to quote, coordinate countering misinformation related to homeland security. the person appointed to lead that effort is a woman named nina jankowicz, she's a former disinformation fellow at the wilson center and author of the book how to lose the information war, which is about international relations and disinformation. almost immediately after the announcement, a right-wing frenzy ensued helped along by the vaguely ominous title of the office, and she found herself on the receiving end of
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a concerted campaign by the very same forces of disinformation her office would face, now attacking her and undermining her credibility with wild conspiracy theories and lies, it was so much that yesterday the dhs announced the formation of the office had been put on hold, this morning nina jankowicz resubmitted her resignation. tonight she joins me for her first television interview, thanks for joining us, first, just to start at ground level, what was this thing? that was announced? and what was it going to do. >> well, chris, it was going to do exactly what you said, it would all be sensationalized narratives about what people thought the board was going to do was completely wrong, it was a coordinating mechanism. it was meant to make sure that the very large entity the dhs, that people were talking to each other within it. let me give you an example, fema, the agency that handles disasters and environmental issues, would often encounter misinformation about natural disasters.
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of adversary like iran or china would put out a narrative that says, oh, here is how you get out of the city, or here is where you can find disaster aid, that could put people really into danger, their lives into danger. that's the sort of this and misinformation, that we were looking to support the department addressing, to make sure they had best practices, and most importantly to protect americans freedom of speech, civil liberties, and privacy while we are doing all that. so every characterization of the board, that you've heard up until now, has been incorrect. frankly, it's kind of ironic that the board itself was taken over by disinformation, when it was meant to fight it. >> so just to give the argument on the other, side when i was watching this play out, i was running the solid experiment, of how would i feel back in 2005 when the bush administration had announced this thing, with this title. unaided pointed someone that i
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thought was a republican or conservative, and it felt like here is the use of the state, state power to control speech or to claim things that are disinformation that they'll like. what do you say to people who say, if your intentions were, good in this was just bureaucratic, but even stepping into this zone poses some non crazy alarms for folks who are concerned about that? >> well i fully understand americans concerns they don't want -- policing speech, and neither was i. but it's, it's important that our government get involved, when we have real threats to our national security. so it's not just things like -- in which dhs has combatted also, the information that's driving people to migrate here, disinformation that can affect critical infrastructure, like our financial systems and gas
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pipelines. all of that has very real effects for the safety of americans, frankly i think the agencies and federal agents need to be involved because this problem isn't going away, it's getting worst. >> let's talk about come back, that word is interesting what does that mean, when you say combat disinformation, because obviously we're having intense data about speech and platforms, regulation so wet is your vision, what would the boards vision or anyone's vision from government potential protector bead to combat disinformation? >> a lot of the work that dhs has been doing for over a decade now is just about putting good information out there, again, informational where americans see disaster aid, information about where americans can vote, information about the border not being open for instance so that's one thing i'll do and then also there's a lot of my career testifying over republicans and democrats on both sides of the
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aisle, advising governments about how to build resilience in populations. people need the tools to navigate today's information environment at and i think that we would do some creative programs to equip people with the tools to find that information in today's information environment and not say what was true are false, that was never the intention. >> one more question on this, and then i want to ask a personal experience. how is disinformation as a category different than just stuff that's wrong, right sometimes i feel that term itself, it's a little bit of a fuzzy boundary, people are wrong about a lot of things, there's stuff online, there's wrong stuff said by people that i love, but why is it, what is the category of disinformation that makes that distinct from wrong staff? >> that's a great question, it's something that often is mischaracterized as well. this information is false or misleading information spread with malign intent.
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that's when you have those bad actors, foreign adversaries like china, iran, maybe russia spreading that stuff. misinformation is also harmful, but it's when and sally are uncle john are spreading those rumors are conspiracy theories at the dinner table. it can have effects on peoples livelihoods and safety as well. but again, we were focused on disinformation not disinformation spread with malign intent, that wasnt anything to do with politics with politics, it was again, where disinformation crossed homeland security and the safety of the american people. >> that's actually really useful definition and distinction precisely to put those things at odds. finally, we have 90 seconds left, i've watched this happen multiple times in my career -- when he was position in the white house out of office because he had signs of petition. -- officer the u.s. department of agriculture that said something taken out of context. what was the experience of the focal point of this sort of
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massive frenzy over the last few weeks? >> well, it was really overwhelming, chris, frankly i have pride myself over my career i've been a really nuanced, reasonable person, again as i said i breathed in i admired some of the stuff with the trump administration to combat disinformation including senator rob portman and his bills against deepfakes and funding the global engagement center in the state department. to say that i am just a partisan actor wildly out of context, find that it wasn't just these mischaracterizations of my work, it was death threats to get my family over the last three weeks i have had maybe one or two days, a violent threat like we're coming for you in my family when your family should be sent to russia to be killed, encouragement of me to commit suicide, all of those have been forwarded to the department of homeland security services and that's not something that is
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american, that's not how we should be acting when we have disagreements about policy in this country, we need to learn how to be adults in the room, i don't have time for that childish initial, not a light silence in the, i'm gonna go forward and continue building awareness about this threat in the future. evening. >> good evening, chris. thank you very much, and thanks to you at home for the joining of this hour. cast your mind back for a moment to the days after the november 2020 election. one of the things that can be hard to remember about that moment now the stop the steal election deniers has metastasized so broadly is that the chorus of people insisting that there is massive fraud and that donald trump was the real winner of the election, was really quite small, it was very