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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 20, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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you with the moment of joy. retired sergeant victor w. butler. he is believed to be the last surviving tuskegee airmen. he is in rhode island. he has asked for a birthday card for his 100th birthday. he turned 100 on saturday. it is too late for me to send your birthday card, but this is my birthday card. happy birthday to our tuskegee airmen hero, retired sergeant -- butler! happy birthday from the reidout! don calloway, dana milbank, that's it -- >> tonight on ellen. >> my husband told me that the president asked about me twice, so, i'm wearing my trump button. >> new evidence that the wife of the supreme court justice was intimately involved with trump's coup, using a fringe legal theory endorsed by her husband. >> i think we are in danger, of destroying the institutions that are required for a free
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society. >> then adam surber on the right wing defensive a racist conspiracy in the wake of buffalo. >> the replacement of legacy americans for more beating people from faraway countries. >> plus, jaw-dropping new data on the explosion of handguns in america, new polling that can give hope democrats in the midterms, and ahead of the next big primary in georgia have the disgraced ex president is chucking an old friend under the bus. >> david, david, david -- david so well he's a respected and loved by everybody. >> when all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas was intimately involved with plotting and promoting donald trump's co-. with each piece of evidence that we get it becomes harder, and harder to understand how the supreme court justice himself is not completely compromised. we know that ginni thomas promoted and attempted to attend that rally, that
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preceded the actual physical insurrection on january six. we know of course that there is a slew of tax that she sent to the president chief of staff mark meadows, in the weeks after the election. in those tech she urged him to try to overturn the results, often referring to while conspiracy theories including one that joe biden was being arrested and sent to guantánamo bay to face military tribunal. the latest revelation about what ginni thomas did in the wake of the 2020 election shows a level of tactical sophistication that was clearly absent from those absolutely crazy texts. and crucially, these actions were connected to her husband along the sitting supreme court justice, clarence thomas, in a way that makes it harder for him and his defenders to fall back on the claim that they keep their work and personal life separate. the washington post reports that ginni thomas emailed to arizona republican lawmakers, pressuring them to help reverse the election results.
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the first of two emails came days after joe biden was declared the winner, it reads in part quote, please stand strong in the face of political media pressure, please reflect on the authority granted by the constitution, and please take action to ensure that a clean slate of electors is chosen for our state. thomas sent that message to russell rusty by our speaker in the arizona house of representatives, bowers did not reply refused to participate in the effort to overturn the results in arizona, for his effort right wing group tried, failed to recall him. now the other recipient was state representative shauna bullock, wife of arizona supreme court justice clint bullock. justice bullock is a long close friend of supreme court justice clarence thomas. they worked together before thomas was appointed in the court, thomas is even the godfather to one of his sons. shauna bullock responds to ginni thomas right away writing quote, i hope you and clarence are doing great, she went on to
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give ginni thomas guidance on how to submit complaints between the experiences with voter fraud in arizona. sure enough, a couple months later bullet introduced a bill that gave the legislature the power to throw electors all just as ginni thomas wanted them to do. luckily that bill never made it out of committee. but shawnna bolick now running for secretary of state in arizona. a rule where she would oversee elections, would you think she's gonna do in 2024 when she gets an email from ginni that time? it's important to note, when ginni thomas urge these to state legislators to do, just throw out to the results of a free and fair election, a lot of people in the right want it, it's what donald trump himself wanted to happen. it's what his lawyer john eastman advocated for, his infamous cool memo, assistant attorney general jeffrey clark suggested it in a letter he want to send to officials in georgia into every other swing state. it's with doug mastriano, the republican nominee for governor of pennsylvania, wanted his state to do too.
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all of these people, in donald trump's orbit, won a republican controlled state legislatures in states where joe biden won, to pull off the coup by telling the voters that the politicians, not the people who actually voted, they decide who gets elected president. they were going to ranch that power away from the citizens, now, this is obviously a ludicrous idea that's totally offensive to our notions of democracy in the rule of law. first of all, state legislators are bound by the very laws they pass, in the states the law says that the winner of the popular vote gets the electoral slate. but here is where things get interesting, there is a fringe link theory called the independent state legislature doctrine that supports the idea that state legislators can just be like, no, no we pick the president. as scotus blog describes, the constitution and state legislators not state courts, the power to regulate federal
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elections in their states. essentially, the idea is that state legislators are like these little kingly committees that can just decide even after election whether or not the american people can choose their president. and one of the people who strives that three, or at least is quite open to it and writing is ginni thomas's has been, justice clarence thomas. you recently signed on to a dissent that called a quote, exceptionally important recruit -- law. clarence thomas, is one of the most powerful people in the country, he's absolutely gonna be rolling on questions having to do with the election. elections in the future, and this election back in 28 back when jimmy was emailing. here is his wife, a private citizen, emailing i arizona state represented, who happens to marry to justice thomas's longtime friend, a friend so close to thomas that, he's a godfather, and here's ginni thomas pushing that state legislator to sign on the theory that clarence thomas publicly supports.
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the most charitable interpretation of ginni thomas, her role, and actions that can bend over backwards, essentially, people put up with her because of her husband as. conservative writer jonathan last puts, it -- really is much was texting with chief of staff instead of being an angry cat lady on facebook is because she married a man who got himself appointed to the supreme court. that seems a little mean to name, i mean, it's sort of takes away the agency of ginni thomas, the agency of clarence thomas in some ways. so, another interpretation, this is just another interpretation, i don't know what it is. is that ginni thomas and clarence thomas our team. their partners, their equals, and this is kind of a joint offer. she goes to these arizona legislators to peel apartment that everyone knows lawrence thomas would be perceptive to when they come in front of the supreme court. and justice thomas has been clear about how he views
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himself as essentially a right-wing activists. he recently pose for this photo with trump candidate herschel walker, who's running for the republican domination for senate in georgia. last week you made wildly partisan contests in a friendly interview by torture memo author and war crimes enabler johnny you. in that conversation thomas repeatedly used the word we, when talking about republicans and conservative. not only been pretending, kudos for honesty. claiming at one point that we, don't engage in the same tactics that liberals. >> we would never visit supreme court justices houses, when things didn't go our way, we did throw temper tantrums. it is incumbent on us to always act appropriately and not to repay tit-for-tat. >> temper tantrums, what would you call the mob of people beating the heads of comps on the steps of the capitol? i don't know what
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interpretation of clearance and ginni thomas actions are truly, but it sure seems like we should be getting at the bottom of it, definitely one way or another. dahlia lithwick, senior editor and senior correspondent with slater, latest piece is entitled the biggest mystery of the supreme court leak is into did it, she joins me now. dahlia, i've got to say there are people that say ginni thomas's their own person which he does is it relevant, everything we find out it just gets harder, and harder to just divided even just conceptually or factually. from justin clears thomas who sits on the court, like, when you're emailing a person who's a family friend, you're very powerful has been in the got sent to her husband, you don't get to be like well, this had nothing to do with the justice on the supreme court. >> so, here is the news, chris, to the extent that there is good news. you, know there is federal statutes and there are judicial canons and they don't -- the questions are asking.
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they don't try to figure out who is an independent ethical agent, they don't try to figure out whether spouses or working in tandem with their spouse, they simply state, and this is 28 section 4:55 any justice dug our magistrate judge is required to disqualify in any case where spouses are known to have an interest in the proceeding. >> the good news is to the extent that there is any, we don't need to worry about whether they're colluding, or not colluding, or she's off doing her thing, he's off doing hayes. the question that the ethics rules, the cannon, the actual federal statute asks is does it look -- to the rest of us. and it really looks hanky for the rest of us. it seems to me that this whole deflection about you can't be a feminist if you think clarence thomas and his wife are somehow doing his bidding, is a total
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distraction, the real issue is the legitimacy of the court demands these ethics rules, these federal statutes to say this such as whether or not they have an interest in their spouses litigation, whether or not they have spouses in the tank for a party in the case. the justice recused is because it looks awful. and so i think the way i would reframe your question gently is does this look awful, if it does, is awful and he should not be involved in these cases. >> that's really well said, i also think there's something different about this revelation versus the last. -- conflicted up the was a. which is the text meadows feel like a spectator a little bit, like a superfan kind of what are you hearing, is biden on a barge to guantánamo. mark meadows has to be like no, i don't think he is. [laughs] this is her as a practitioner, she's explicitly saying you
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legislatures, you with power, do this thing under this constitutional theory. she doesn't say this, my husband is open to, that's a whole other level. >> it is, and i think it's you said the, one of the recipients of these was actually involved in an effort to enshrine this in law. so, this isn't just i'm just spit balling here, this is saying here is a thing we could all work boards together, which is caught-ifying in some fashion the idea that the legislatures get to send fake slates of electors in future elections, and yes, my husband is open to it but apparently you are too. and chris, i think in a normal world you and i would not sit around and talk about this as though oh, those funny tutors, too bad it's a monarchy. and we just need to live with
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that, i, mean there are meaningful efforts out there right now to do things to force the judiciary particularly supreme court, to have ethics rules, to have disclosure rules, to live by these rules, and apply to every other federal judge but themselves. and so, i think there is a weird learned helplessness here, where we say oh well, it's just jeanne, what can you do, kind of funny. it's not, it's crazy and this isn't a monarchy. >> we should say that, we should know that the court is a coequal branch, there's checks and byron's is, the way the checks and balance works congress for instance funds accord every year. there's lots of things they can do on that. my personal favorite ideas that after the leak of roe, but she took away all the clarks for all the justices because they can't be trusted with them, except can tandy downdraft and who gets -- didn't link. that's one remedy. let's make them work a little bit, in case you want to be a supreme court justice. that aside, this independent
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state legislator doctrine, has this life outside of ginni thomas and the clarence thomas is open to. it's always the kind of federalist society like supreme court clerk legal narrative euphemistic version of the trump coup, right? it's a josh hawley justification, ted cruz justification, this idea that when push -- state legislator can just say nope, sorry, we don't like their votes voters of pennsylvania. we're taking that back, sending it to d.c.. but also has disturbingly wide purchase among some very powerful legal concerns. >> right, and this is what you may remember as some of it is genesis, and push only three -- actually know majority that signs off on this, this is a minority idea that comes it's actually good for one right
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only which means -- ever cited again. and so, this minority idea in a one right only cases now being floated as though it's the law of the land. and the other thing i guess i would say right now, it is that this idea that is cracked pot in the hands of rudy giuliani, crack that in the hands of leah mitchell, crack pot in the hands of ginni thomas, this actual idea is going to be repurposed by serious white shoe lawyers, making serious claims an argument in 2024. and, so we're past the future on this front, the thing that we look at right now and say, this is just nuts. there is no authority for this, everyone thinks it's crazy, serious people will be making this argument in efforts to set aside the election. dahlia lithwick, as always, a pleasure talking to you. thank you very much. coming, up in the wake of the
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in disarray right now. chesa dissolved my unit prosecuting car break-ins. now criminals flock to san francisco because there are no consequences. we can't wait. recall chesa boudin now. supremacist walked into a walmart in el paso and opened fire. ultimately killing 23 people. in an online posting before the
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shooting started, he said the attack was quote, a response to the hispanic invasion of texas. at the time, the conservative national review ran the headline, crushed this evil. condemning national supremacy. and lectured leaders like congresswoman -- said quote, we need to work together to lift our country above this epidemic of hate. this week, after the murder of ten people at a supermarket, predominantly black neighborhood in buffalo, new york. the government -- the government of spells the same ideals, the response was notably different. ritual our condemned the attack but implied the current immigration system serves to quote, narrow interest to one political parties. as for stefanik, she issued condolences. but within 48 hours she said, democrats desperately want wide open borders a mass amnesty for illegal allowing them to vote. but the vast majority of americans, republicans want to secure our borders and protect election integrity. as -- republicans briefly reconsider
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the idea of comprehensive immigration reform after losing -- but instead walk the path of trumpism -- prominent conservatives could have the option to persuade their cameras to reject this perverse ideology, rather than attempt to sanitize it from their mainstream consumption. we have -- and he joins me now. what do you think has changed in the last two years as we have seen the response to the aftermath of buffalo with a lot of special pleading on behalf of people like elise stefanik talking about immigrants coming as the real -- and the defenses of it by folks like rich larry and others? >> i think what you have seen is the sanitized version of the great replacement conspiracy theory. which is that democrats want to import other liberals, by which they mean, non-white people. it's the same underlying racist
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sentiment where -- it has become too popular, too big to fail essentially. there are too many people in the public in a league who believe, it so to condemn it, you would have to condemn other figures in the movement. and have, kind, of a civil war about it. and they do not care enough about what it does to american society to suggest that there are americans who are actual americans than the rest of them us are not real americans. and to subtly imply that that division is racial, cultural and religious, they don't care what that does to society. with they are concerned about, is conservative unity against the left. they don't want to argue with each other about this underlying racist sentiment that is mainstream. because that might harm their efforts to fight liberals and democrats. so what they have done, they basically made their peace with it. and try to rationalize it. and try to explain in terms that sound a little bit less racist, but ultimately they are
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saying the same thing. which is that these people, immigrants have come to united states, and are just robotically a mechanically liberal. anyone who knows any immigrants know that is not how people think. they are not any less rational or less persuasive than white people. they make up their own minds. and instead of wanting to appeal to these people, they are suggesting that there are a threat to the country's essential nature, which is defined more or less by being a white and christian nation. >> that point is so important first of. all you see them sometimes say, tucker will be, like they can't win elections otherwise. well, they can, they whooped donald trump in 2020 by 5 million votes. clinton beaten by 3 million. they can win. so that just to be clear. they can win actually cheered without this importation. but, also that it's a very weird thing to hear them out of one side of the male talk about this replacement theory that has this assumption that people are liberals. and the other tells the fact
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that donald trump made huge gains in miami-dade in south florida. right, because there are all kinds of people that -- two conservative messages from all kinds of backgrounds. >> exactly. i, mean that it was really remarkable. donald trump did better among latino and asian voters in the 2020 elections. and yet they are still talking about these voters in this way. these immigrants, second generation, third generation, first generation communities as though, tucker carson said obedient -- from the third world. that's extremely racist. these people are no more obedient or less rational than anybody else in this country. and i don't wanna call it a dog whistle, it's far more explicit than that. but the point, as they are implying that these people are less capable of making rational decisions than other people. and ultimately, the sanitized version of this is saying the same thing. but it is expressed in a little
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bit more coded language so as to provide that plausible deniability, for the people who make the argument. >> there is the deeper thing. you've written about this a lot. we talked about on the show. this idea that what makes you a specialist is this -- nation, and we come around an idea across different lines the difference. and that's different and superior to the european model which is, blood and soil. and one ethnic group. it is wild to watch conservatives explicitly celebrate like hungary, for instance. they have the seabed conference. and they are there, and they're being feted and cheering with viktor orban. who is avowedly aspirational illiberal quasi-authoritarian leader. and it is so bizarre. it's like, call me a -- but i think america's better. i think the american model is better. and here are these conservatives that are bowing and scraping before the president of hungry. >> i mean, look, chris, it's
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also ironic because 100 years ago these arguments there making about how these people are coming from abroad and are less intellectually capable, and replacing the people who are real americans. we heard those arguments 100 years ago. and they were made about the ancestors of some of the people who are making the argument today. in the 1920s, we passed all these racist immigration laws that were targeting italians, jews, greeks, not just africans and asian. because supposedly, they were replacing the true northern european anglo-saxon americans, who were the only real american to exist in the country. and that you hear these -- descendants of the people targeted by that kind of hatred, repeating the same kind of hatred. it's really disappointing that people do not learn from that kind of history. but the reason why they are repeating it, is because it is politically mobilizing. it is a way to reaffirm this essential victimhood of conservative identity. which is that liberals are trying to destroy the, country the way of life. and this is just one way to
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make this argument. it's become super popular for conservatives to fight the way they should be fighting. >> this time i've seen, the converse already writes about, legacy americans. which is -- >> it's so cowardly. stay with you. mean >> what do you mean by legacy americans? in his defense, tucker carlson himself is a legacy -- he does know a lot about legacies. adam sarwer, thank you so much. coming, up new polling shows that court democratic agendas where are actually, drumroll, wildly popular. but will they do enough to capitalize on the momentum before the midterms? and later, high stakes primary in one of the fire wall states stood in the way of donald trump's attempted coup. why we should all be paying attention to georgia, just ahead. ahead.
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perdue has been donald trump's ride or die since even before they both lost state law in georgia in 2020. when trump was able to complete his, kudos purdue on equivocally over and over again against georgia's incumbent republic governor brian kemp who trump blamed further dual defeats. >> a friend of mine, had a great senator amanda who, i don't know is he gonna run for governor david perdue? are you gonna run for governor. we're gonna support a great gentleman, he's a great guy, wonderful man incredible family. and who really got screwed by camp, the only candidate in this race that can be stacey abrams. >> isn't that beautiful, i just love when he feels good about another person's life. he seems to be someone that needs that. it's a beautiful friendship. only now it looks fairly obvious that both losers may
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lose again. fox news poll this week says that camp leading purdue by a whopping 32 points, ouch. and now trump is checking his buddy under the bus. nbc news national poll or portico, marc caputo, quite seems to given his campaign up for a dead, and isn't planning to make any more personal appearances in georgia on purdue's behalf. that's just the tip of the of berg -- in georgia next week, marc caputo joins me to talk about it all. now mark, welcome. mark, just before this segment i saw some reporting, it turns out that according to federal election filing trump actually transferred $2 million from his political operation, for trump is really a lot, he's pretty stingy with that. he really did do everything he could for purdue. >> he did, one of the people we quoted in our story that he just referenced, the subject of has done more for to help lacked david perdue than david perdue. in the eyes of trump from those
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we spoken to who have spoken to him, he just didn't think, doesn't think that purdue has done enough here, he hasn't campaigned out enough, he hasn't raise enough money, he hasn't -- 's message is bad, and that's described to last from what trump says. if you talk to republicans in georgia, they'll tell you the same thing, purdue wasn't a very good candidate, he was a guy that didn't really like voters they say. he didn't like making fundraising calls, didn't like giving campaign speeches, and that's a job hazard if you're a politician. >> it also strikes me, and i'm not in georgia, haven't reported directly but i follow it quite closely. there was never any defining logic for produce primary challenge, other than the obvious one it is that donald trump had a grudge against camp. over the 2020 election. in the end, that's not enough even four republican primary voters. >> right, it's difficult to dislodge an incumbent in your own party, when he's running for reelection, and he aligns
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with the party in almost every way. that the average rank and file report republican does, at the same time deliver conservative goodies, one bill after the other in the legislator session. he had a good session he was able to raise money, raises profile through -- so, purdue is really up against, a suicide mission to engage in the first place. he decided to go along with it, he trashed his friendship, him in purdue, or producing cadet used to be -- that certainly not the case anymore. >> so, there is another primary that i think is even more important. -- raffensperger, it's like we've seen in pennsylvania where he got mastriano, you got some of the just explicitly is running on a basically like, i would've done the coup in 2020, i will be open to overturning the will of the voter agenda. that's what -- raffensperger famously the secretary state refused to do that, we don't have a ton of polling it looks like
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raffensperger is ahead, that's definitely a huge high stake one to watch on tuesday. >> it, is if you were to spoken a bunch of folks people in georgia in 2021. january 2021, thereabouts, they would've told you that raffensperger was a dead man walking. and now as you said, references the sport -- polls we've seen have been told by other polling from other campaigns have track this race. it does look like raffensperger's gonna come out on top. he's probably not gonna be able to crack 50%, they say, and therefore it's probably gonna be -- but the reality is is that there's a possibility i should say, that the anti raffensperger forever, the pro trump, we've gotta throw the bastard that, we've gotta get all these new people in, and we can't have another election that we had in 2020. that forever might be dying, and there's a good possibility that this 60% of republicans assuming that the poll for fox fox news poll is right, these republicans are gonna vote in a majority it appears, for
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governor kemp. those are the same electorate, the same voters that are gonna wind up voting, the same type of voters that white voting on a runoff with raffensperger, there's a good possibility that people are gonna ask themselves, well i voted for cat, trump told me not to, moving beyond the 2020 stolen election lie. why should i replace raffensperger? there's a possibility that raffensperger might win, and really up and what was our conventional logic a few months ago. >> that seems to be -- we've been facing a few that the idaho primary challenge earlier this week. where to me, from a pro democracy standpoint, these are really important -- of a dog in the fight because i'm not a republican, i don't have a dog in the fight otherwise. but in this case you do have an explicit jody hice saying that it was stolen, big lie, raffensperger showed on what trump said, raffensperger saying no. you also at the primary herschel walker, the former university of georgia football star, nfl football star, who doesn't really live in georgia,
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lives in texas and was basically recruited by trump despite lots of misgivings from the republican establishment, looks like he's gonna cruise the nomination they take off raphael warnock. which there be a key race, there's lots of little worry about how herschel walker stands up in a general. action >> there, is you're seeing, and you've seen in the primaries herschel walker came into the primary, he wasn't really chlorinated, albeit he is gonna win by a large margin it appears. and his opponents, gary black, in the gop primary he's let walker have it. all of these stories that come out about walker in a domestic abuse allegations, his use of firearms, his apparent lack of honesty according to the reports, those things are gonna start to wear into him, when i think that herschel walker's gonna learn, about a lot of celebrity -- now is doctor oz in pennsylvania, you can start running from office as a celebrity, but there's nothing worse for your brand then to
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get caught up in a little campaign. political pains are marketing campaigns, they sell the kind of the same way that coca-cola selves soda. so, at one zapping unlike in a conventional marketing campaign, political campaign, if there is a coke versus pepsi, will pepsi's gonna spend $50 million to tell you how terrible coca is. that's what's happening, with herschel walker, that's gonna be a bruising, bruising campaign before that one's over. >> all right, mark competed thank you very much. next, unnerving revelations about the skyrocketing number of guns in america, why the gun lobby spent decades trying to keep people from learning that information. information. ♪ ♪
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country than motor vehicles. cars, trucks, motorcycles combined. as a 2017, there were 120 firearms for every 100 americans. the past two decades, the rate of shooting skyrocket. -- to block the governor from just researching gun violence. we know that we have more guns to people, and more gun to vehicles because it outside research that has been done. but now, thanks to an executive order from joe biden, we have the first study on guns by the government itself. the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives. the first one in 20 years. 306-page report was released just three days after the mass
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shooting in buffalo that left ten people get dead. it contains some really disturbing revelations. back in 2000, one year at the columbine massacre reinvigorated the movement to get guns off the street. this company manufacture close to 4 million guns. in 2020, the u.s. manufactured more than 11 million guns. that is nearly 200% increase over two decades. the study also finds at the 2021, police recovered more than -- ghost guns which could be assembled from kids at home and hard to trace. more than ten times the 1700 ghost guns uncovered just years ago. these ghost guns are increasingly being used in crimes. perhaps not surprisingly, according to the new york times, they account for 25 to 50% of all guns recovered at california crime. scenes -- author of the new, book shook trigger points -- mark, let's just talk about the context of having this data being compiled and released by the atf. which itself is both a kind of
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small victory, but also a demonstration of just how hard making policy in this area is. >> i think this report is an important confirmation of what we've known for many years now. but only unfragmented bits of reporting and research. that there are more guns everywhere. more and more. a lot of them. and it's been very hard to get this information, up until now. because of a suppression of research, essentially. the political forces, mainly the and i.r.a. and their allies in congress putting a stop to any kind of research like this. >> it almost seems like overly simple, to say this. but it seems to obviously true that if you pump more guns into a society, you will likely get more violence and more serious violence in that society. whatever it's underlying political, ideological, demographic profile is. just holding all things equal.
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and that's a little bit of what we're seeing here. it's just wild how many were gunned there are in america now than there were 20 years ago. >> we have an estimated 400 million now. but i think what's even more important here, chris, it's a step back and look at the bigger picture of what is happening in terms of the conditions of the country over the last handful of years. because not only do we have so many more firearms circulation, we've also got increasing political turmoil and volatility. we have stresses from this pandemic era. and we have seen a real rise in violent far-right extremism going on in the country. from the attack on the capitol on january 6th, 2021. which was an event, by the way, were many people were armed. some reporting i did with colleagues of mother jones did that. and we've also had the string of horrific mass shootings in horrific years.
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motivated by this kind of violent extremism. san diego, pittsburgh and elsewhere. two -- tightening latinos in texas. and walmart in el paso. -- this is a growing problem, in terms of specifically these terrible math attacks. >> one bit of data that i've been thinking about a lot. which i saw the other day, from the cdc. it is a decoupling of non firearm homicides and firearm homicides. we are seeing that starting around 2015 there was a spike of firearm harm sides. where they come uncoupled from non firearm homicides. -- what we see in 2020, is way bigger than spike and non homicide firearms. which again suggests to me that there is just this real supply issue driving some of this. and if you spread more guns in a society, particularly under
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the condition of tension, conflict and destruction in the pandemic, that is going to have pretty obvious natural violence consequences. >> i think so. and we know also that during the pandemic there was a real surge in gun buying as well. which would make sense with this manufacturing. there was record gun vying in 2020 and beyond through certain periods. i have talked to experts and predecessors about this. which is the focus of trigger points. folks who have specialized in the behavioral warning signs, and security issues, and mental health issues that revolve around gun violence and other forms of attack. and i saw a really notable rise in concern among men to. which was striking to me. they are normally very reserved in their view of what's going on. it's the work they do. but hearing from folks like that, that these conditions and the supply of ever increasing guns was going to lead to more
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and more violence. and i think unfortunately that's what we're seeing now. >> when did that start to turn for them? because the interesting inflection point. you see on the date in 2015 where we started to see homicides go up in a number of countries, a number of cities around the country. it came back down. and then obviously in 2020, the sort of distribution and production of guns has been escalatory for 20 years. so where do you start to see the inflection points in your reporting? >> i really started to hear about it as i was finishing up the book in 2020. i think with the convergence of factors. one being the very volatile political environment around the 2020 election. it was really stoking extremism on the far-right. i think it culminated on january 6th, in some sense. but then also, the stresses of the pandemic. which are of course intertwined with the political volatility and extremism that we see. the way that was politicizing
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and weaponize in some ways. so i think it's the multiple factors that have fed into it. and that certainly would have heard from -- experts is. well >> finally in quickly. there's a great book about hijacking airplanes in the 1970s. it's called -- which people should. read one of the things that's clear there, it becomes a copycat crime. you see a group hijacking a plane, you're like, maybe i can do that. how much of that aspect. we saw our explicit references in the buffalo shooters to previous shootings, how much of that is also a play here in these mass shootings? >> it's significant, chris. it's been growing. i've documented this for a while. i write about at length in the book. it's been steadily escalating. i think because of the digital media environment. social media. and so the more people are thinking about doing these kinds of attacks see it, they want to emulate it. it's a very real problem. >> and a real conundrum for folks in the press like us,
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about how you deal with that and uncovering -- mark follman, thank you for joining us. i appreciate. >> thank you for having me. >> that is all in for this week. msnbc prime starts with matty. good evening chris, thank you and have a great weekend. thanks to at-home for joining us at this hour on january six, last year on capitol hill. the day started with a prayer, and offering praise delivered every day, incentives by the chaplain berry black, he's being the senate chaplain since 2003. and boy, does this guy have a voice. >> let us pray, almighty god. have compassion on us, with our own love, as our lawmakers prepare to formally certify the votes, cast by the electoral college,

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