tv American Voices With Alicia Menendez MSNBC May 21, 2022 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT
that does it for me, thank you for watching, i will see you back here tomorrow at 5 pm eastern for another live hour of politicsnation. american voices starts right now. >> however everyone, i am alicia menendez. we begin this hour with the insurrection investigation. with big names behind trump's big lies finally speaking to the general six committee. rudy giuliani testified to the committee yesterday. a source told nbc interview that it lasted overnight hours. new details emerging of ginni thomas's efforts to overturn the election. the washington post reports that the wife of the supreme court justice, clarence thomas, urged arizona lawmakers to overturn the election.
one responded that her plan had no basis in the constitution, writing, quote, i voted for president trump and work hard to reelect him. but i cannot and will not entertain a suggestion that we violate current law to change the outcome of a certified election. meanwhile, the january six committee requesting a sit down with another republican member of congress. the committee told a georgia representative, barry loudermilk, that evidence directly contradict his claim that no one gave tours of the capitol. this all points to a pro gop. the governor's race confirmed it. the candidate -- 44% of the pennsylvania gop chose the mastriano as their next governor. he even said received a subpoena from the general six committee. it is not just election denial republicans on the ballot. trump's big lies spread through
the dark corners as the great replacement theory, the racist conspiracy that motivated the buffalo shooter. according to the guardian, these white supremacist websites have become politically significant forces, pushing the gop farther and farther to the right. >> when we as a party and movement, or people like tucker carlsen, throw out these varies, we are just fish in the waters of white replacement theory, or echo some of the fear based things, you could not be surprised when somebody takes that to the level of gone and massacring people, you just can't. >> joining me now is democratic congressman of rhode island, david cicilline, congressman, it is good to see you. i want to start with ginni thomas's emails. you have justice thomas worried that americans have lost trust in a supreme court vis-à-vis that lake, but he has not set a
word about his wife's activities to steal the election, your thoughts? >> this is very disturbing. this is an individual who is actively working and strategizing in an effort to overturn the results of an election and keep donald trump in office, despite the fact that he lost the election. we are encouraging the state to basically send a book a set of electors that did not represent the popular vote in arizona but did support donald trump, there by attempt to keep him in office even though he lost the election. this is the spouse of the only justice on the supreme court who wrote a dissenting opinion when the select committee was seeking documents. everybody else recognize that the committee was entitled to those documents. the only person that the senate was justice thomas. those documents may have produced the text messages that ginni thomas had sent. there is a clear conflict of
interest on justice thomas's part. there's something more serious here. that is that a spouse of a supreme court justice, who is working with the highs working members of the trump administration and others, to try to keep donald trump in office even though he lost the presidential election. >> that is talking about some of the proximity to power, let's also talk about your republican colleagues that have also been asked to testify to the 16 committee, what do you see is the best way to get them to comply? >> they are expected to comply with subpoenas at the end of the month. there were five individuals that were requested to come before the committee. when they refused to do so, they were issued subpoenas. i suspect as a lawmaker, they will comply with what a subpoena requires you to do. they all have information important to the investigation. the american people have a right to know exactly what happened and how the events was planned, financed an executed. it was a very serious danger to our democracy. we have to make sure that it
never happens again. anyone who has information should be coming forth voluntarily. it's very different pointed that they had to be subpoenaed, but i suspect that they will comply. if they don't, the committee has at their disposal so mechanisms, including the department of justice for criminal prosecution. >> congressman, i don't need to tell you that you are more optimistic on this point and several of your colleagues. i am sure that you heard what republicans are doing. they are trying to delegitimized the effort, which is something they have done from day one. they are threatening retaliation with subpoenas, and maybe become the majority in congress, do you think that is bluster, or that they actually have plans to do that? >> if any democrats work to create violent insurrectionists where people die and attempt to keep somebody in office that has lost a free and fair election, they ought to be compelled to come to the committee and answer that. i don't think you will see democrats do the. look, we live in a country
where we say no one is above the law. we have to respect the rule of law. the subpoena is the process by which congress produces documents and witnesses to fulfill the functions that the constitution gives us. they can try all they want to delegitimized it. these are the same folks that are promoting the big lie, that donald trump really won the election, when we know that he did not. when the public hears on tonight and begins to see what the select committee has assembled in terms of evidence, people will be disturbed. we can expect that congress make sure that this never happens again in america, and that we do everything we can to protect free and fair elections in this country. no one will be able to hide from with the committee finds. >> congressman, david cicilline, think you for your time. now to detention brewing between the 16 committee and the doj. committee member adam shift says that the justice department's request for documents are too broad. >> we want to support the
justice department in their work. i don't think anyone has been ladder than i have in calling for the justice department to pursue all leads of any criminal activity related to the election. but, we received a very blanket requests for information. the congress did not simply say, hey, come on in and we will open our files. they need to be specific about what they are looking for, so that we can help them with. >> joining me to discuss is congressional reporter for the guardian, hugo lowell and barr barb mcquade was, co-host of the hashtag sister in law podcasts. i want to ask you both the same question because you look at this from slightly different places. you, as an attorney, what do you think is going on here? >> i don't know. adam schiff and betty thompson, have all been calling for the justice department to investigate to the full extent of the law. now it looks like, okay, share
all the information, you're on, you bet. they say, no, do not take our word for it. what? i cannot believe that there is something more going on here. i tend to think that congressman thompson used the word yet when talking about sharing the information. one speculation that i have is that they do not want the justice department or anyone else to steal their thunder. when it comes to jimmy raskin, he said we will blow the lid off congress when you hear the testimony. there will be new details. i think one of the things that they are trying to avoid is what we saw with robert mueller's investigation, details dripped out over months. but the time we heard it all together, it was like, so? what they want to share the explosive details together. if word gets out by getting this information into other hands, they lose control over and risk having someone steal their thunder. my guess is after they get past the hearings and june, they will also be happy to share. one way or another, the justice department will get this information. i think they rather get it voluntarily then use a
subpoena. if they have to, i'm sure they will. >> there are a lot americans saying, please, steal their thunder, share your work product. any of your reporting filling in the gaps in the story? >> i think there are two possible routes to go. i think the first was the committee, like barb said, was concerned that once they restart releasing their evidence to other agencies, the number of hands it goes through increases, so the control they have over these documents also increases. or their control decreases because the number people seeing increases. the other theory is that the committee does not want any sort of political bent to come onto the justice department investigation because a committee knows that one it presents its findings, it will not necessarily be political. the doj does its investigation, the committee needs those investigations to be -- the doj to have the legitimacy
of -- prosecutors look at this case with fresh eyes. together, that will go about the situation where we have the chairman does not want to piece of documents -- >> hugo, i also want to ask you about another big thing that happened this week. rudy giuliani said that with the committee, any sense of what he might have shared? >> when i spoke to giuliani and his associates a couple months ago when they were first trying to hash out the details of giuliani's cooperation, the first things that they were talking about was, i am not going to violate executive privilege of the committee. giuliani was trump's personal attorney ungenerous six. he had told the committee from the outset that his communication and contacts with the former president are protected. they were not discuss. this he did say, however, to the committee counsel that he will talk about any other matters. something like attorney prior client privilege -- that opens up the possibility that he talked about his
contacts with republican members of congress and throughout the white house, how they were talking about stopping the allegation in the house and senate ungenerous six. that is potentially where the testimony will go -- >> barb, former ag bill barr also testified to the committee. what do you anticipate where the contours of this conversation? >> i imagine that they are interested in the conversations that bill barr had with donald trump about election fraud. we know from barr's book that when he said trump asked him about election fraud, he said that it was bs. that is why he ultimately signed in december, supposed to finish out his term in january with the rest of the cabinet. i could imagine that they want to get into what he told donald trump because donald trump's mindset is so important here. if he was to be charged with a crime of defrauding the united states, for example, like stretching a fair and free election or obstructing it an official proceeding, he would have to show the knowledge that
there is no fraud. that what he was perpetuating was a lie. the way to do that is getting people in like bill barr, who are loyal to donald trump up into the end, who will say, now, he knew, i told him. anything he said after that is just false. that is what they are kind of looking for here. bill barr has already said these things on the public domain. any privilege that he may have had is waived, and i think they want to pin him down on the details, ask follow-up questions and really prove the contours of that exchange. >> hugo, i got a minute left, but i want to ask you about the letter to representative -- where evidence is there of reconnaissance tours at the capitol? >> the democrats on the house administration subcommittee has also seen the security camera footage, as well as republicans on the committee. they thought it was serious enough to hand over the u.s. attorney. that was this time last year. clearly there is a divergence and what they saw. republicans are saying that there were no tours whatsoever.
clearly, there were some tourists because the congressman admitted to a such. there is clearly a shifting a position on the republican side. i wonder if this comes out against them. >> hugo, barb, thank you so much are being with us. coming up next, the great replacement theory espoused by the buffalo shooter highlighted night after night on fox news. how does racist propaganda become mainstream in politics and conservative media? later, millions are vulnerable to tucker carlson syndrome. what it is, why is it dangerous to democracy? with covid cases on the rise yet again, hospitals are supposed to be ready, except they are not, for reasons you might not think. ghmit not think. eled every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪
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shooter mentioned in his online manifesto. the gunman's plot repeatedly quote the great replacement theory, the false racist belief that white americans are being replaced by immigrants in interracial marriages. instead of distancing themselves, well, some republicans are doubling down. >> their plan is to bring in millions of people to this country illegally, give them a green card, give them a citizenship and throw them into the borders. so they can control the country. >> everything you just heard from the texas lieutenant governor is not crew. as my next guest writes, enough is enough. until republican leaders and conservative media stars explicitly renounce this white supremacy conspiracy, condemn it, and disassociate from its peddlers, it's fair to conclude they are entirely complicit with a message. the this columnist joins me now, he's the co-host of the democracy-ish podcast, and go back to where you came from, and media matters present and like her son. and boston globe opinion
consulted and editor renee graham. raj, the danger, what is the danger? we watch the dangerous play out but, talk me through it. what's the danger when these lives go unchallenged. >> there's this white supremacist conspiracy theory that was the -- of the kkk in the nazis, now mainstream thanks to the right-wing dissipation era. taking calls on the show, to the point where white supremacy is themselves, they don't need a tv show, because tucker carlson's their guy. number one, in the fringes now mainstream and 50% of american voters appear believe in the great replacement theory and a third of americans do. so although, individuals like tucker carlsen and other republicans are not responsible for literally handing the gun to radicalized individuals, they are part of the same ideological infrastructure. they provide the ideological bullets and the mainstream what was once a fringe white supremacy talking point. and the dangers not political correctness, oh there just
races, this has incited and radicalized individuals to commit hate and terror against vulnerable communities. both here in abroad. this is no longer a lone wolf, no longer a domestic terror threat. this is an international, globalized terror threat. from christchurch, new zealand to texas. you saw it in new zealand. you see it also, right now, last week in buffalo. you saw it in tree of life, they attack jews, blacks, hispanics, muslims. we're all quote unquote invaders, seen as replacing white folks. so this is the problem, it's the number one domestic terror threat in america, white supremacist terrorism. and literally talking points and ideology of these terraces echoed nightly on fox news. >> let's pick it up right there. angela, you have the new york times reporting how the trump years helped transform fox news as a network. that during this period that fox says quote, leaned harder into stories of illegal immigrants are non-white americans caught in acts of
crime or violence, often plucked from local news sites and turbocharge by the channels vast digital news operation. talk to me about the mechanics of this, angela. how has fox caton environment, an ecosystem, or something like replacement theory is not just embrace but peddled. >> yeah, i mean they really are the engine that drives the feedback loop. and that loop is speeding up faster and faster and faster. and the way it sort of works is, the producers mine parts as social media, in particular, the chants and other message board communities which has been well documented. the same committees the buffalo shooters were on. for these anecdotes or examples. they put it into the fox news ecosystem on prime time. fox's so-called news programs covered the next day. they cover a tucker carlson segment as of was news, so gets it more into the legitimate side of fox news, and they do more reporting around it. and then a hammer away at those
anecdotes. so those things become touchdowns, fuel for that engine. and then what they do at night, is explain it. why is this happening. well, that's where the great replacement theory comes in. and they do that cycle over and over again and it sped up. and a major inflection point i want everyone to remember, that was one year ago actually. tucker carlson gave his most explicit embrace of the great replacement theory to date, which is about a year ago. even we have been touching it up until then. and lackland murdoch took a very rare response, he wants to rule the network. he does a thing he normally doesn't do witches publicly respond to the criticism. and in fact, he gave tucker carlson, in that moment, not only did he defend the segment that tucker carlson did, but he gave him a greenlight to continue to perpetuate and intensify his reliance on the great placement theory. and that intern sped up the feedback loop more. and that's how you get -- 50 republican candidates and outside groups warning individual ads, explicitly touting great replacement
theory of the last year. and i was just with a cursory search. so that's how the mechanics work. and not just blessed, but embraced, by the people who run fox news. >> great, talk to me about how it's been embraced by gop political leaders. >> it's obvious. they think they have red meat here. they think they're speaking very directly to their base. so you talk about this really toxic cocktail of white entitlement, irrational fear, and the violence that history has shown us again and again can ignite. that will eventually be the death of this country. you know, what's tucker carlson does is spread this manure about replacement theory, and fertilize a garden of division and hate. but he gets ratings. he's the highest rated cable host in history. and republicans see that they, see something their base is responding to. so they spew the same thing. you know, i think what's important always remember is, tucker carlson did not invent this. the first place people might
have heard about this back in 2017, in charlottesville, when we had neo-nazis and white supremacist screaming, jews will not replace us. there is that word again. in 2018, donald trump talked about, you know, how he didn't want immigrants coming here from, you know, these countries he referred to with really wild profanity. and he said, why can't we get more people from norway? why would that be. norway's 90% white. that's the whole idea of this. there's always a sense that somehow, we have to defend what rightfully belongs to us, by any means necessary. and that's with tucker carlson's amplifying. and republicans think that is a political goal. >> which of course brings us to the question of how we undo this. you have democrat delegate stacey plaskett calling out gop lawmakers on the house floor, this week. take a listen. >> this falls ignorant, race baiting theory, call great replacement, has been used in multiple race-based domestic terrorist attacks.
there are a number of my republican colleagues who spew this vile and venomous rhetoric. the silence of republican leadership and their ranks, and condemning this rhetoric, that is not just ripping our country apart, but contributing to the death of americans. that shows they are no longer the party of lincoln or even the party of ronald reagan. >> raj, what does accountability look like here? >> accountability looks like calling it out first and foremost, for what it is. it is a terrorist ideology. is number one domestic terrorist threat, you have to call them out as an extremist. you have to have pretty much all of your mainstream institutions call it out and disassociate them selves with these individuals and these pillars of hate. on this given example. i muslim, i survive the ongoing war on terror. could you imagine if a person of color a muslim us to say this and then incite a literal terrorist to go out and kill individuals. what would happen?
they traced it back to the individual, what books he read, who do you watch on tv, the local imam, there be surveillance over the mosque. we can learn from the war on terror and not repeat the excesses and abuses of civil liberties. but we actually took that terrified seriously, we took it as a national security threat. and the majority, including our elected officials, and the justice department, and law enforcement said enough is enough. and we crack down. yet, because this is white supremacy as terrorism, and white rage, and white anger is always normalizing coddled, we sit there with -- we don't even touch, we don't even tap it, we don't even name it. so we need to name, it we need to call it out, and aggressively attack it because these are the same individuals who are at the doorsteps of the capitol for the january 6th violent insurrection. and they have told you, take them literally and seriously, that they're going to take this country back on the rest of us, and i see us as the deep state. they see us as pedophiles. and this type of language and conspiracy theory, the deep state replacement theory and qanon, are mainstream theories in the gop, the right-wing,
which is radicalizing groups and individuals to commit terrorism. -- that's the fbi. so how do you respond to an ratifies group that may can commit violence. you can name it, confront it, and tackle it. >> angela, i've about a minute left, only at each of you. your final thoughts, angela. >> we're gonna be part of another solution here, turn off the engine of this, which is fox news. power is being organized on the fringes, the conduit as fox news. and a big part of that as they can be part polite society until this top. loughlin should be sitting down for committees in the olympics in 2028, as if he's not also peddler of this conspiracy theory. we're going to start drawing some hard lines unfortunately, because of the end of the structure. >> rene? >> something has to be done. there is a body count from charlottesville to charleston, to el paso, to pittsburgh, now to buffalo. this has a body count. somebody needs to be held accountable because americans are dying, and they're dying
because of a scoreless, racist lie. >> raj, additional, renee thank you so much. coming up next as trump back election deniers face off against opponents in several states, democracy hangs in the balance. inside trump world's latest attempts to rig the vote. and later, as evidence of russian war crimes pileup in ukraine, what does accountability look like. we talk to a reporter on the ground. the ground ♪i'm so defensive,♪ ♪i got bongos thumping in my chest♪ ♪and something tells me they don't beat me♪ ♪ ♪ ♪he'd better not take the ring from me.♪ you're pretty particular about keeping a healthy body.
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to call trump is attacking the process will pushing on is to just declare victory. and as the focus turns to georgia's primary on tuesday, trump's effort to control the electoral process is on full display. and the states race for secretary of state in combat -- brad hice, over incumbent brad raffensperger. brad raffensperger stood up to trump in the 2020 election. but trump pushed him to find him to overturn biden's election victory. trump is also taking out his vengeance against georgia governor brian kemp, endorsing former senator david perdue instead. joining us now to discuss trump's effort to elect -- loyalists nbc contributor matthew dodd is the founder of country over party and -- now senior advisor at gift hurts. matt, you have trump endorsing purdue, because can't follow the law and certified georgia's 2020 results. but have this fox news poll showing camp ahead of purdue by more than 30 points. you and i have sat here and talked about a lot of these
past few elections, what does this tell you about his hold on the gop and how that party is? >> well, as you and i talked before, i think the party has gone past donald trump and now is in the process of not even paying as much attention to him as they did before. donald trump to me is the great reveler. he's revealed people and republicans as what they had been and what they will become. i think you will have republicans who are not endorsed by him, who sometimes go against him, when. and then you're going to have republicans who are totally endorsed by him. but the commonality, except for that georgia race, the most interesting race in georgia the secretary of state's race with raffensperger and georgia hice are in this competitive race. and that race and what it tells us about the election. but basically what the party has become, regardless of the candidates, if they've emerged and they're endorsed by donald trump or not, is a party that
denies facts. that actually is against american freedoms, against americans rights. and has serious questions about american voting rights in this country. as purdue, governor purdue, has shown -- i mean, as buying governor kemp as shown in georgia, he's fully willing to decide voting rights restriction laws. it's as if a monster was created and donald trump supply the electricity, and now the monster has gone up from the table and has gone off on its own. >> i know you said that secretary of state race is the most interesting ways, why? >> because it's her race where brad raffensperger, who endorsed on trump and is a conservative, but stood up to donald trump and said all the books are counted, the election happened, it was secure. joe biden won the state. that's the story. and aided three recounts in georgia. and donald trump has gone out of his way to try to take out brad raffensperger. because obviously he didn't buy into the big lie in all of
that. that's a race, as we look past the governor's race, and really the secretary of state's races are as as important as governor's races or attorney general races, because they're the last line of defense on peoples ballots being counted. >> right, right, races we don't normally spend a whole lot of time talking about become some of the most critical important races in the country. paul, i think if i'm listening to what matt is saying, i think all of these candidates are pretty trumpy. a just becomes a question of how trump they are, and whether or not they have his endorsement become secondary to how far they're willing to go out on some of these questions. so trump's endorsement of -- candidates part of a national trend. i want to show you this map. all the states with election deniers on the ballot in governors races, in secretary of state races, what worries you most about all these candidates? >> well, you know, alicia, once again, thank you for having me.
i have to say the radicalization in the extremism of this party, which is no longer a republican car-t, this is an ultra maga party. and what we saw was really interesting, because the woman who is running there in pennsylvania for senate, who was starting to take over oz's gains in that race, actually said that trump doesn't own this maga movement. that this is a movement of its own. so that's what we're seeing across the country. but let's not go very far. let's see what's going on, right now, as we speak. we have republicans, including trump, mark meadows, who are participating in the cpac conference. which is taking place right now in hungary, a country where or bomb, a prudent sympathizer, and they're actually having discussions on how to control the free press and the media. this is a party who's trying to destroy all of our democratic values. it is a party of lawlessness.
it violates the constitution. and what they're doing as we speak, alicia, is their passing legislation to make that possible. while we're having these discussions, these laws are on the book. don't vote, far enough to see, here in the state of florida, governor desantis has already passed laws that are voter suppression laws, establishing an election police to intimidate voters, particularly voters who are black and latino here in the state of florida. these are in the books. it's going to be extremely difficult, even if we get older voters out in november, to be able to win some of these races. >> matt they're telling me i have to go, but i'm refusing to go, because i want to play you this one clip. doug mascot one nomination of pennsylvania governor this weekend, you gotta listen to this part of the intro speech take a look at this. >> anti-freedom loving americans in the house? [applause] while first corinthians won 27 give us all hope.
god uses the -- and the week to confound a strong. and he uses people like you and me to change history. and we're gonna take this state by storm, we're gonna restore freedom and liberty, this is our time, this is our hour. so let's walk and freedom. let's choose this day to serve the word. >> matt, i gotta ask you what do you make of the christian nationalism piece there? >> it's become completely embedded and intertwined with this. and that's when the most disturbing things at, as a christian, and as somebody that believes in the constitution. you have people now, who no longer a spouse what's in the gospels. they're now using christiane and christian nationalism as a way to achieve power. just like they're ignoring the elements and ideals of the constitution. i will remind your viewers one thing, as i watch that and listen to that, he'd all of hitler took power legally. adolf pat hitler took power legally. he won a third of the vote. and all the laws are initially
passed for legal, in germany. all the things they did an initially were all legal. so this is what scares me most about the rise of this. so we sit there and say it can't happen in america. it's happening in america right before our eyes. >> matt, debbie, as always thank you always respect some time with us. coming up next, war crimes in ukraine. new evidence showing how russians are allegedly committing them against unarmed civilians. and later, january 6th, the attack on row, and the formula shortage, what they all have in common. california congressman eric swalwell joins me to discuss. joins me to discuss ken... a secret aioli... clean ingredients... in a buttery brioche roll. made fresh, to leave you... speechless. panera's new chef's chicken sandwiches. $1 delivery fee on our app. it's time to get outdoorsy. it's hot! and wayfair has got just what you need. we need a rug. that's the one. yeah.
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ask your doctor if latuda is right for you. pay as little as zero dollars for your first prescription. today, president biden approved 40 billion dollars of military aid to ukraine. that is in addition to nearly $14 million the u.s. sent in march. it will help ukraine ramp up its defenses, after reportedly surrendering variable to russian forces earlier this week. nearly 2000 ukrainian soldiers
displaced in the city's port city steel plant, now prisoners of russia. meanwhile, ukraine has put a 21 year old russian sergeant on trial for war crimes. accused of shooting unarmed civilian in the head. if convicted, he could be sent to prison for life. that is if ukraine decides against using a humanitarian prison swab for ukrainian soldiers detained by russia. let's go to cal perry, who remains at his post in kyiv, calwood is the latest on the trial? >> so, the defendant pled guilty on wednesday. and normally that would be the end of the trial. but this is about more, of course, then a plea. this is about a sense of closure for the families and the community. so what we heard at the end of the week was testimony against this soldier from his comrades, from a soldier who was there on the scene with them. and we should remind our viewers this sergeant was accused of shooting an unarmed man riding a bicycle, and he claims he was following orders. he'll be sentenced now. and when that is done, we'll
wait and see how this all plays out. the way that you set it up, of course, that he's a pow, granted, he's a convicted murderer in the country of ukraine. but he is really a pow and there's a number of ukrainian pows. i think that's the way to set this up. we'll see if there's something down the line that maybe a swap between ukraine and russia. >> we'll continue following the story. kyle, there's been mounting evidence of horrendous war crimes committed by russian soldiers in bucha, and other parts of ukraine. you've been talking to people on the ground in ukraine as the atrocities have all been revealed. but with the people of ukraine consider accountability for these crimes. do they have a clear sense of that? >> i think it's such a great question. i'm not sure that they do. you know, this trial is a really good symptom of the pain that everyone here is feeling. it's a very public trial on purpose. the judge even said in the middle the week, we have to find a bigger courtroom there so much media. this video here is showing the recovery of bodies in bucha. we spent a lot of time in bucha.
and what i would say right now is there are still families trying to reunite with their loved ones who were murdered, who are still missing. there's still dna testing being carried out. that is still taking place across the country. i don't think it will have gone to a stage yet where they can think about justice, where they can think about reconciliation. and again, when you look at that video from mariupol of the almost 2000 now, we understand, ukrainian fighters who surrendered to russian forces. there is an understanding across this country that this war is still raging. and what we might see in the future is pows swaps and there still a lot, as we said, people looking for their loved ones and looking to reunite. >> looking for the 11th, looking to reunite, and of course, people who just want to go home. i want to ask you one more question. you have ukraine identifying more than 40 russian soldiers potentially guilty of war crimes. any sense on how far they go to capture the suspects? >> not unless they're captured on the battlefield. there's a number people in custody, we don't know how many. and we don't know if there's any sort of overlap with the people they're looking for.
so much of this as been rodeo technology and satellite footage. and again, we don't know how many pows there are. it'll be interesting when the icc, the international criminal court hits the, ground what the level of figure out. but there's so much uncertainty about how to bring people to justice in a war that still going on. >> cal perry, thank you so much for making time for us, so good to see you. coming up next, a rise in covid cases putting an already strained health care system at breaking point. our friends in the atlantic is going to explain. and later replacement theory no longer a fringe concept. in fact, you will hear from someone who calls it tucker carlson syndrome. and why millions are now vulnerable to it. more american voices, after this. , afte this t creative. find a new way. but birthdays still happen. fridays still call for s'mores. you have to make magic, and you're figuring out how to do that. what you don't have to figure out is where to shop. because while you're getting creative,
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against covid-19. over the past week, the united states saw an in cases, about 100,000 new infections daily. hospitalizations are up to, leaving the cdc to once again to recommend indoor masking. the cdc also recommends a second booster for those 50 and older, and recommends a pfizer booster shot for children aged 5 to 11. while we are in far better shape with cases and hospitalizations than we were last year, even the slightest ripple can cripple are already strained health care system. as ed young writes for the atlantic quote, america's current pandemic strategy is predicated on the assumption that people can move on from covid, trusting that the health
care system will be ready to hold the line. but that assumption is a fiction. much of the system is still intolerably stressed, even in moments of apparent reprieve. ed joins me now. add, i just mention all those latest numbers on cases, on hospitalizations, put it in context for us. where are we at this point the pandemic? >> well, we're in a surge. hospitalizations are rising in almost every state. and i think for a lot of people, it doesn't feel like that. in part because those numbers are still much lower than they were during the omicron surge. but here's the thing, the omicron surge was so bad that we cannot use it as a baseline for how we think about a crisis. at that point, peoples were dying in waiting rooms because they can be seen for hours and sometimes days. it's not the benchmark against which we judge a crisis. what we're going through now, and the words of one physician i talk to, would be a clammy by any other baseline that we judge it against. except for the previous one.
so we're in a bad state. and as i said in, that piece, the hospital system cannot take this. there was this sort of myth that if it could prevent the numbers from rising again, things would be fine. but even in the supposed lull, the system was reeling from the events of the last two years, the losses of so many health care workers from burnout and exhaustion that those workers have faced. it had never left a crisis. so the fact we are now returning to a place of rising hospitalizations is deeply concerning. but >> you reference under, which of course has been a huge issue, how does that mean for other health care workers who have to calm safer or understaffing. >> there asked take longer shifts, more shifts, having to care for more patience. and the burden on them is huge and sometimes in ways i think don't appreciate it.
it's not just the lack of people, it's the lack of knowledge. a lot of veteran health care workers have left, which is the overall experience in american hospitals is lower. novice health care workers are having to do things beyond their skill set, and have to train the next generation of unskilled people. sometimes it's very difficult to get patients out of hospitals into long-term care facilities which are also short staffs. which means they can take on new patients, which means people are just sitting in beds taking up space in hospitals despite the fact they could essentially be discharge somewhere. and the health care workers who are left behind and haven't quit their jobs are also facing a volume of patients who are sicker than before, because they deferred carrot doing surgery. they're going to have to do catch-up care from previous surgeries. they're still struggling supply chain problems. their problems are numerous. and this country leads to a sense of moral injury, where they know what they should do in their jobs. what the mission tells them
they want to do, but they can't do it. they can't provide the care to the patients that they want to provide. and that's causing more people to want to leave their jobs. and so the cycle continues. >> the challenges are clear, i think they've been clear. unite automotive many times. you talk to experts, what are they telling you? >> it's hard. when you ask people with the solutions, they get a bit more negative. but. . people need time to recuperate. you can't get around the fact that after two and a half years a trauma, a lot of health care workers simply just need to do less. they need time to heal. less work, moving away to slightly less demanding jobs. it might mean just staying away from their jobs for a while. and it's very difficult at a time when the health care system can afford to lose more people. but if they push the existing
staff to do more, are certainly, without proper recognition or compensation, or safe standards in their workplaces, they will continue losing more people. but i think also the answer is we cannot just have a strategy where we let the virus run amok, on the assumption that the health care system can pick up the slack. this current surge, and the events really before it, should show that that system can't work. at minimum, a loose running -- virus is going to sicken health care workers and take them out cause they can't be in your medically vulnerable patients, which were since the staffing situations. you have to get things under control, you can just let the hospital system hold the line, because it won't. >> as you, said that is at a minimum. ed young as always, thank you so much for being with us. and the top of the hour, january six under threat. a formula shortage, how the gop ties all those things together. we're gonna talk with california congressman eric
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