tv Velshi MSNBC May 22, 2022 6:00am-7:00am PDT
be in store for a summer of trouble they could to do much more damage than just to its already altered reputation. on the battlefield in ukraine, a successful ukrainian counteroffensive continues to push russia out of the northeast. russian forces were treating back to russia, said to fight in a donbas in southern ukraine. one apparent victory for russia is in mariupol, where it has claimed control of the last ukrainian holdout in the ava style's factory. ukrainian president vladimir zelenskyy pay tribute to the soldiers at that factory, calling them quote, absolutely heroic people. zelenskyy also honored the ukrainian pilots who flew resupply missions to those fighters, and the civilians who sheltered in the factory during the weeks-long battle. saying that 95% of those pilots who don't make it back. the captured mariupol effectively completes a land bridge from the internationally recognized russia to the southern donbas, to crimea. areas were russian invaded, installed pocket puppets, and
illegally annexed in 2014. similar to crimea, u.s. officials believe that russia will soon host bass sham referendum in kherson, which has been occupied since the early days of the war. to the bottom of your map. pressure continues attacks on nearby nikolai of, a key strategic city which has been under siege since the start of the war, yet remains under ukrainian control. a u.s. official sideways that russian continues to pose no threat of a man of salt on odessa, by either land or sea. intense artillery fighting continues in the donbas, notably near the towns of severodonetsk and is ian. yet despite him with a monthlong campaign, russia has advanced since previously held territory which continues to be extremely slow with little success, according to u.s. officials. all the while suffering, quote, significantly high level of troop and equipment losses. according to uk ministry. it has been said that russia has lost one third of the
combat force in under 90 days. the uk defense ministry knows that the remaining russian forces are operating under, quote, low morale and reduced combat effectiveness. the institute for the studio for ads that russian forces have become so depleted on the battlefield it they are combining consolidating battalion groups and hear the rendered inoperable because of the losses that they face. even western russia, the uk defense ministry also says that those losses were, quote, almost certainly to be exacerbated with russia both continuing to take risks with further attrition, due to commanders being under increased pressure to show tangible success, while being, quote, unlikely to accelerate its reign of advance of the next 30 days. essentially, ukraine continues to hold much of the, line picking off russian forces as they try to continue to advance. why much of the territory map for the donbas has stayed the same for so long, despite the
intense rain. indeed, russia's failure to make such tangible successes hat led to the firing of at least two top russian commanders, according to u.s. officials, including the former general in charge of capturing and holding kharkiv. which is the former -- and the former admirable the mocks, via the black sea ship which was famously told to go f yourself by some ukrainian soldiers, who were stationed on sneak island. apparently that is also the message that putin gave the ships commander. putin may have also lost trust in one of his top military commanders, gerasimov, according to the uk defensive ministry. and because of these losses, at some point potentially very soon, russia could have no more combat ready troops at its disposal to send into ukraine. with western officials saying that russia has already deployed nearly two thirds of its entire ground combat forces available to them. that is on top of syrian
mercenaries, sensor fighters, and troops that were re-deployed from georgia and elsewhere previously bolstering the russian force. while putin is yet to call for a mass troop organization, probably because that would be wildly unpopular, remember that this was supposed to be a 72-hour invasion. this is not going unnoticed inside russia. parliament set to end the upper age limit for first time in military synapse. so that older man can sign up. ukraine's defense ministry says the russian has actually run out of combat ready forces, it is currently conducting a, quote, covert mobilization of new converts. they are untrained and are being sent directly into the fighting. as the north of the critical threats protect till's foreign policy, marcia it is, quote, literally scraping every barrels bottom that they can possibly find to round up troops. and quote, the wheels are sort of coming off the russian army. indeed, russia's losses are so great it remains to be seen if
russia will have enough capable forces and equipment to fully occupy and hold some of the newly captured territory, of it is going to end up with a similar situations to kharkiv and kyiv. and just be forced out. ukraine's military intelligence chief says that ukraine will fight until all russian invaders and occupiers are forced out, including in crimea and the donbas. that official also tells sky news that the breaking point for the russian army will be the second part of august. listen carefully to this part. quote, it will eventually lead to the change of leadership of the russian federation, and quote. that breaking point timeline seems to line up with when biden administration officials believe that a 40 billion dollar military humanitarian and economic aid package that biden signed on saturday, while he was in south korea, will last. until they say it will get ukraine through september. the russian losses are real. they have real consequences on and off the battlefield.
to more than just russia's reputation. it may sound fantastical, the demise of the russian army russian leadership, let alone by the end of this year. but at the start of this year, a grand artillery trench war in europe also seemed fantastic. joining me now is andrzej he served in the government isn't was russia's first foreign minister following the fall of the soviet union. he was no than it is known now as a reformer, it was highly influential in the -- served as a representative in the oslo accord. he's author of firebird, released a federation democracy. it has been a major outspoken critic of russia's war in ukraine. thank you for joining us again sir, it is really good to see you. i wanted to get your take on this idea. is this western propaganda about the weakening of the russian army? coming to the end of the russian army, or is there something to this in your opinion? >> i think there is a lot in it,
because it cannot be that the army is great and the country is in decline. it is in decline much earlier than the sack sanctions. it is part of putin's policy. so economically at least, -- must prepare and horn. this congress despite all the propaganda. but i would not underestimate the relativity ability to leave them by the audience regime, with putin are without vision. because it is very difficult to say what happens there. it is a coup d'état. because there is a small group which might suggest change --
or was a new world wheeler. so the region might stand. i would do not believe in notions about that. but it is important, though, that's the west showed out stand. should outlast. anything which happens in russia. because, do you like putin or not, do you like zelenskyy or not, which is very difficult to imagine how you cannot like zelenskyy. but what is at stake is not even democracy in russia. or a russian change in russia. that is for russian people. what is at stake is the world order. if that is ruined because he is ruined, next will be other --
if it is ruined, then america will lose a war, and the whole civilized world will be turned upside down. >> i think that is various, to use what you said. that we can care or not care what happens inside russia, but this is actually about world order. give me a sense of how this plays out. you said, don't obsess about putin because somebody else might come in if putin is gone, and be like putin. to what degree do russians have influence over where they stand in the world order and what do they feel about it? it's easy to know russians think about anything these days, because it is illegal to talk about this as a war, it is really illegal to criticize the. war people who stand up about it arrested, although there are increasing partisan russia, again. tell me a sense of where russians want to be in this. not a lot of rain putin. >> that is everybody's guess. even for us, russians, it is very difficult to answer this question. one thing i want you and
everybody to remember, russia is unpredictable. russia, for a long time, for centuries, was under a dictatorship. or -- of some kind. but all the, sudden it's might kind of wake up. and then there would be an enormous change. unethical change, even. and that leads to one of those -- in the early 90s, 91, there was a -- that look like manatees. and nobody in the west could i think that the sovereignty would collapse. in 20 years, there was one wise man. but everybody was kind of smiling at him. as my lifetime, in my eyes, the soviet union collapsed in a couple of years.
and instead of this -- we have the opportunity to build democracy and build a partnership with america and the western congress, which i tried and failed to do. so it is unpredictable. and the problem is not to make a guess of things we cannot know, and we cannot control. what is important is that the west stands strong because ukraine already stands strong. and it stands strong to help ukraine to win. yes, exactly. to free the whole territory of ukraine. which was recognized internationally. in, that for instance, they put the -- around him. which they coordinated. once. so, that they must. everything else is wild guess.
but it can't stand, the regime can't stand, for another generation. probably or to. but might fail just to morrow. so that is beyond our control. >> a guessing game. i'm glad you brought up the witness memorandum. that was the agreement when ukraine surrounded its nuclear weaponry, to say okay, you will make sure that our territorial integrity is preserved. and of course, that has gone into the way spoke in history for now. mr. kozyrev, thank you for being with us, we always appreciate your insight on. this andrei kozyrev is the foreign foreign minister of russia. author of the firebird, the pacific ocean democracy. and the color cars. joining me now is the retired lieutenant colonel alexander lineman. he's the director of foreign affairs for the secret counsel. easy off of the important book, here right matters, an american story, and he hails from ukraine in fact.
vindman, good to see you. i want to talk after talking to mr. kozyrev, about the speculation about the russian army, its strength, and how this moves forward in the next little while. it has been three months of the war we didn't get one for three months. and yet ukraine does not seem we are for it. >> as always, ali, terrific coverage. glad to be on here especially with minister kozyrev. we have to remember that just like in the united states, the military here reflects the nature and the strength of the american people. the russian military reflects the strength, and in that case the weaknesses, of the russian federation. interviewee russian military, which is very well may result in a deep instability. but upsets the regime, upsets the order and balance internally into russia, and creates enormous pressures along with sanctions, along with a massive loss of life. which is going to make it very difficult for putin to hang on. certainly for the long stretch. but as mr. color of pointed out,
we don't really have that much control or influence to those internal factors. they are way too complex. and we, sometimes americans kind of believe, that we can choose a course are picking action, and achieve outcomes. we can't. the best we can do is work with willing partnerships, work with our allies. and on that note, putin has been very helpful to us. he is helped consolidate the world around the idea of preserving world order. part of the meetings that president biden is having right now in asia is to help facilitate a reconciliation between the japanese and the republic of korea. the south korean. it is a hallmark of the fact that there is no clarity among the democratic world about the threats that russia poses. on the military front, very simply, my belief is that russia is a near respect force. and he gains it has is going to
be reversible. >> that is remarkable. in fact, you through the may 19th, you said, provide ukraine with weapons and easter foreclose rushes theory a victory at every turn. this reduces they learned a protracted war and risked u.s. forces. it forces putin to negotiate or leave. trust your experts. russia has zero interest in escalating a conflict with nato right now. vladimir putin has turned into an unpaid cheerleader for nato, which is entirely the opposite of his goal. and the entire opposite of what you and i discussed 90 days ago. when we discussed why he, what his reasoning was, for one of his ample reasons for wanting to go into this unjustified war. finland and sweden were talking about joining nato right now. vladimir putin has done with nato itself has not been able to do, in terms of unifying itself. >> that is right. he is revived in rejuvenated the nato alliance. and the democratic alliance has more broadly around the world.
i think that's one of the outcomes of this war, and russia's defeat, as authoritarian regimes that we're trying to articulate on alternative vision of the future for the 21st century, whether mission democracy and russia's form or state capitalism in the form of china's model, those narrow same of honorable and hollow compared to the strength of these democratic world. and we have to thank vladimir putin for that. but we should also recognize that he is going to, as an authoritarian, keep pressing and make mistakes like he is down thus far. one of the things he's potentially looking at doing is holding this referendum in the kherson region. and if he does, that if he attempts to an exit like he did crimea, that actually opens up the door, and undermines the unique status of crimea as russian territory. and potentially allows ukraine, over the course of a longer stretch, over the course of months, to not just regain
territory captured by the russian sense that you are. not just eastern regions of the donbas. but potentially even opens the door for ukraine to move in that direction. >> colonel, it is always an honor to speak to you. thank you for everything you do the information that you give us. but also are, minder thank you for your service. you've been on top of this for a long time. warnings about the danger of not doing the right thing. in eastern and central europe. or target attendant colonel alexander vindman is a former director of affairs for the authority counsel, and author of a book that i really recommend you reveal reed. it is called, here, right matters. an american story. up next, heading to tokyo for president biden's final leg of his diplomatic trip to asia as president. one saw he made earlier this morning was a hassan airbase in south korea to meet with u.s. and green service members and their families. now, if you know biden and all you know that he would be hard-pressed to pass up an opportunity to have ice cream. there he, is indulging. no word yet what's flavor.
hopefully vanilla, my favorite. but that is the scoop. more on biden's trip, right after a quick one. one. it's important to have confidence in the nutritional drink you choose. try boost glucose control®. it's clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels and contains high quality protein to help manage hunger and support muscle health. try boost® today.
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tomorrow he's scheduled to meet with the japanese emperor and -- earlier he was in south korea where he met with a host of individuals, including president yun school, the executive head of the hyundai group, and u.s. troops stationed in the region. joining me now is an msnbc correspondent caralee. she was traveling with the president in tokyo right. now, carroll what does biden hope to do in the second leg of his trip, and what's relies on this? which is going to come of this is going to be useful to america and the world? >> it is a great question, ali. first i want to formulate the present got chocolate chip ice cream. so it was not a vanilla but chocolate chip. do you want to know. >> carol lee with the scoop! >> good one. the president was in south korea. the trip focused on that
meeting the mansion. he also announced a plan that the company samsung is going to give in texas, focusing on the u.s. economy and how he is trying to bring new jobs to the u.s.. there was a big portion of, that as well as north korea literally looming over the south korean portion of his visit. the president called on north korea to denuclearize. obviously there are no signs that north korea is going to do that. and he said he would be willing to meet with kim zhang and if that came to pass. if he felt like kim jong-un was serious. now he is in japan, he will meet with prime minister here. north korea will still be an issue. u.s. officials are saying that intelligent still shows it is possible north korea could test nuclear weapons or launch some sort of missile while the president is in the region. so, north korea is still a concern and will be a topic of his discussions. but again, it is larger economic focus. the president is going to unveil this indo-pacific economic framework. which is essentially designed for our countries in the region too enhanced trade relations.
deal with supply chain issues. and things like that. to try to be a bit of a -- against china. >> it is a hard job, because we've been talking about doing that for years. and it hasn't remain the focus of the united states to actually pivot to asia and stay focused on it. it will be interesting to see if joe biden can set something in motion that actually sustains. carol, good to see you. thank you very. much and thanks for the ice cream update because there's ice cream time for. us carol lee for, us live in tokyo. she will continue to cover the presidents visit. and the day, now the governor of oklahoma could decide the strictest abortion bill in the nation. meaning, hundreds of thousands of women will lose access to critical abortion care. we are going to get into the consequences of that scenario right after this. ter this meets power? you try crazy things... ...because you're crazy... ...and you like it. you get bigger... ...badder...
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extreme abortion, anti abortion law enacted in the country in decades after it's time for the governor. the new law will ban abortions from the moment of fertilization. effectively outlawing abortion completely throughout the state. it borrows the legal framework of the restrictive texas abortion law which relies on vigilante civilian enforcement. it allows private citizens to sue anyone who performs or helps a woman obtain an abortion and if successful, the person suing could be awarded $10,000. challenges to the law and its legal framework so far have failed which means oklahoma still abortion ban could go into effect immediately. as soon as the republican governor kevin stick signs off on it. state has clearly vowed to sign every piece of antiabortion was lycian that makes it to a desk. so far he's followed through on that promise, this is the third in a series of increasingly draconian anti abortion laws that oklahoma has passed or enacted in just the last six weeks. in the beginning of may, oklahoma enacted a copycat version of texas bill that
banned abortions after the six week of pregnancy before most women are even aware they are pregnant. three weeks before that, the state made it a felony to perform an abortion punishable by up to ten years in prison. and a ten, 100,000 dollar fine where this new total abortion bans goes into effect in the state oklahomans will not be the only ones affected since the six-week abortion ban in texas went into effect last september. thousands of people traveled to neighboring oklahoma to seek abortion care. last month, we spoke with rebecca thomas, the co-executive -- which operation abortion clinic in oklahoma that's been flooded with out of state patients since september. here's what she had to say. >> ourstopped ringing in seven months. one monday, we received 200 phone calls in the first hour of the day. this is how many people are seeking to scare. and who are desperate. they know that they cannot carry a pregnancy. for whatever reason.
and they're just trying to make a choice that makes sense for their life. >> as a result of this total impending, total abortion ban, many more people want to get an abortion are not going to be able to access that care. again, abortion's health care and that's going to have a real tangible effect on many aspects of women's lives. joining me now is doctor diana greene foster she's an associate professor of -- gynecology and reproductive services at the university of california in san francisco. she's also the lead researcher of the turn away study, which studies how a lack of access to abortion care affects women in the short term and in the long term. followed one group of women who wanted an abortion and receive that care and compared their outcomes to another group of women who won in abortion but were turned away. doctor diana green foster, thank you for joining us, we appreciate you being with us. i want to thank you for the early hour that is in san francisco. i want to ask you about the study, what did i find? but was the top outcome of the
turn away study? >> the finding from this longitudinal study is that women, when they're trying to make this decision, whether to have an abortion or not, are making a decision that is absolutely meets their circumstances and responsibilities. so when we asked people, why did he want to have an abortion? the reasons they give us exactly match these variances of people who can't get it. so people say i can't afford to raise the child or i can't afford to raise another child or i need to take care of the children i already have. or they say the relationship with the man involved isn't good enough to sustain a child in a breeze the child. and they're right, on each of these reasons we see worse outcomes for the people who are denied abortions. let me ask you about that, the financial side of things. it's something we have looked into a little bit here. a lot of people forget, that's an important part of it. the ability to choose whether and when to get pregnant affects your outcomes economically in life. what did your study find?
>> yeah, so when we tracked people either by asking them about their income and family size and calculating poverty. we see there four times greater odds of falling into poverty if they are tonight on abortion. but we also work with economists of the university of michigan and now and why you, and we look to credit reports. so this is a credit agencies count of your outstanding debt, your evictions, your public records of debt. and we can see with those data, before the women ever became pregnant. those who received and those who were denied had similar economic standing. after the pregnancy, when one group had an abortion in the other group was denied. the people who were denied have economic hardship the last four years. so this is like a third party objective measure of hardship you can see it in the debt, you can see it in the evictions. that people struggle. they say they don't have the resources to raise the child,
and they're correct. >> so obviously, i gratified hit toward things like that because i have a sort of back on economics. but let's talk about the other things that the study teaches you about these women, their family lives, the personal relationships. sort of the left tangible, less measurable stuff. what did you find in the study? >> so we asked everyone to tell us what their life would be like in one year, in five years. to try and say, how does this affect their lives, does it change their aspirations and achievements. and we can see that people who are denied abortions are less likely to set aspirational plans for the future. and we also see, and those include things like have a child later under better circumstances. so forcing woman to have a pregnancy now and carry it the term means she's less likely to have a want to child later under better circumstances. and some of that is they've just had a child so they don't want another one right away. and some of it is, those better circumstances that better relationship, the economic
security, the stability of housing. never emerges and some people don't find themselves with the conditions where they're able to have another child later. >> so let me understand that trajectory a little bit more. someone who had, was on a trajectory that may have had a lot of aspirations and goals, you're saying that the inability to access an abortion, if they want to do, that could send him off on a branch, another trajectory because it changes a whole lot of flight decisions down the road. >> yeah, they scale back their aspirations when they know they've been denied an abortion. and we're including aspersions like race children. because clearly, many of them are going to be doing that. fuel people tonight abortions choose to place a child for adoption. aspirational plans like raise this child with happiness and peace, that kind of aspiration, even if you include positive aspirations around childbearing. the woman tonight abortions are less likely to have aspirational plans. >> and may i say one more, it's
not just the other very big difference that people discount is the physical health risk. i think people think that abortion is dangerous. in childbirth isn't. and it's the exact opposite. there is in the medical literature, totally clear that the risk of childbirth is much greater than the risk of stopping a pregnancy earlier. and we had two women die after childbirth and no women die after and abortion. and the physical health differences between those who receive and those who are denied extended for years. years of reporting worse health for those who delivered compared to those who had an abortion. i think people take for granted the sacrifice people, make when they want to have a child. and insist on that same sacrifice and someone doesn't want a child's years of physical health impairment. >> doctor diana green foster, we appreciate the study and you
bring it to life for us. doctor to endocrine fosters east as the professor of gynecology and reproductive services at the university of california at san francisco. she's also a researcher, as we said, on the turn of the study which studies how lack of access to abortion care affects women in the near and long term. still ahead, helps in the way, the first few batches of imported baby formula from germany are heading to the u.s. as we speak. you're watching tell she. g tell she thanks, dad. that's right, robert. and it's never too early to learn you could save with america's number one motorcycle insurer. that's right, jamie. but it's not just about savings. it's about the friends we make along the way. you said it, flo. and don't forget to floss before you brush. your gums will thank you. -that's right, dr. gary. -jamie? sorry, i had another thought so i got back in line. what was it? [ sighs ] i can't remember. okay, help is literally on the
way today for worried parents who have been scrambling to feed their insulin infants amid the ongoing baby formula shortage in the united states. as part of the white house's operation fly formula. the aircraft will supply when you turn 32 pallets of formula to indianapolis today, from germany. that breaks down to roughly one and a half 1,000,008 ounce bottles. the plane is arriving around 11:30 am eastern today. another $114 are set to arrive in the coming days.
officials are going to work to get on the store shelves as quickly as possible. this is all part of the defense production act, which president biden recently invoked to address the infant formula shortage, by streaming up production here in america, and authorizing more flights to import formula from abroad. right after the break, we have a special edition of the velshi banned book club, we are standing with the most poignant and painful books of our time, but love it. by the -- tony morrison. - tony morrison. we'll come to you to fix it. >> tech vo: this customer was enjoying her morning walk. we texted her when we were on our way. she could track us and see exactly when we'd arrive. >> woman: i have a few more minutes. let's go! >> tech vo: we came to her with service that fit her schedule. >> woman: you must be pascal. >> tech: nice to meet you. >> tech vo: we got right to work, with a replacement she could trust. >> tech: we're all set. >> woman: wow. that looks great. >> tech: schedule now at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪
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book club time. during a velshi banned book club meeting a few weeks ago, i noted the various reasons that a book can make an impact. sometimes it's the words on the page. sometimes is the theme of the text. sometimes it's because of the author themselves. and sometimes it's all three. tony morrison and her cannon are all three. categorically, today on the velshi banned book club. we're studying the legendary
tony morrison in her work. now let's start with the woman responsible for the words. the late tony morrison is the author of numerous fiction, nonfiction in children's books. she's received the highest honors for her work including a pulitzer prize for beloved, a nobel prize for her contribution to literature in the presidential memo of freedom from president barack obama. unsurprisingly, she was an avid reader as a child, later receiving an english degree from howard university. and an american literature masters degree from cornell university. tony morrison was the first black woman editor at random house, getting books for infamous black panther party activists. angela davis. from the boxer, muhammad ali. onto the bookshelves. she famously wrote her first novel, the bluest eye, any chance she could during commutes home on the backs of napkins or when her two children were asleep. without question, tony morrison's work expanded literary convention. without beloved or the bluest eye, clearing the path forward
for black protagonists and black authors, there may not have been a dear maureen or a all-boys aren't blue to even feature on the velshi banned book club at all. the very presence of these books on reading lists is not just revolutionary, it's a creditor tony morrison. today's meeting of the banned book club could have honed in on any number of tony morrison's books, the bluest eye and -- have been extensively targeted for a ban and our literary feats in their own right. but no book has captured the american attention and i are quite like beloved. many considerate morrison's magnum opus. beloved is one of these folks that is challenging to summarize, it's nuance, it's a lyrical language, it's themes are inherent to the story as the bones of the plot. as tony morrison said, quote, it's not fast food. it's a meal that you should relish. our protagonists is a formerly enslaved woman, seth, a living which is her youngest child. denver, some years after escaping from kentucky plantation called sweet home.
steph is two sons runaway, her mother-in-law, baby sue has died. her husband has not been heard from since he attempted escape by the underground railroad and her home is haunted by the spirit of her third child. beloved is intertwined with painful memories of set this time in a place she calls, sweet home. she dealt with unspeakable abuse and violence on that plantation at the hands of the sadistic farm proprietor called schoolteacher. seth eventually escapes to cincinnati but only to have schoolteacher return for her and her children. rather than stand by and -- she attempts infanticide successfully ending the life of her third child, beloved. beloved has been banned and challenge for many school districts in many states, many times. numbering in the thousands last year glenn youngkin the current governor of virginia state -- indisputable historical residents built his campaign on one mother's 2011 call to
remove the book even featuring the mother, laura, murphy in an ad. her son, dennis senior in high school told washington post of the book gave him nightmares. describing beloved as quote, disgusting inquiry. it was hard for me to handle, i gave up on it. let me just say, definitively, beloved is not running for children. it's simply not for people or students who are unaware of the gruesome horrors of slavery or below a sophisticated reading level. no assigned readings should come without context, especially something like beloved. high school seniors however do have that crucial contacts. beloved is scary, i agree. its themes are fraught, the destruction of identity from enslavement, subversion of motherhood and womanhood. the dire need for community and the grip of the past. but it's not something we can just give up on. on the contrary, it's something that we need to stay with. to hold. beloved asks a lot of its reader, this is not a work of fiction you pick up to escape. it's active, it asks you to look squarely in the face of
not only the institution of slavery in this country but it's continued effect. it's literally haunting presence. beloved intimately and emotionally encapsulates a visceral emotional and painful part of american history. shutting the cover of beloved removing it from shelves, will not make any part of that past go away. a past that should be hard to read about. the book was written that way. after the break, i have to guess joining me who know even more about the crucial modern classic beloved and the legendary tony morrison. eddie claude and dr. amani perry from pressing university. but walmart's got your back with thousands of rollbacks so you get everything you need to keep your summer rollin'. because when you save money, you can live better. ♪ sweet ♪ ♪ emotion ♪
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thrilled to be joining nicolas, chair of -- the as an msnbc political analyst. i'm anna, perry -- at the center for african american studies at princeton university. imani perry also shot a popular seminar called tony morrison, texan contests. they've actually taught tony morrison together. tony morrison herself taught literature at princeton for 17 years. she played a key role in explaining the african-american departments. thank you to both of you. you are both veterans of the velshi banned book club in different ways. you helped us with tequila mockingbird. and at the, you got us started with this.
you are the first person i talked to on tv about this. so a big deal to have you both here. and it allows us to study books where we cannot get the author, obviously. we cannot make tony morrison available. but you teach this course a lot. when you come back to? it what is about beloved to that workers? it's just good literature, that we should all hear. or the things within the? >> there are a couple of reasons. one, it is historically so significant. right? it tells you the story of how slavery became the national institution with the fugitive slave act. so that south of runs away from slavery and can be caught in ohio. it also tells the story of the post slavery period without interstitial period where the promise of citizenship became still elusive. but there are these human things are so important. what does it mean to try to make a life after so much drama and violence? how does would not become completely defined by the brutality?
how does one not be the thing which the larger society says that you are? so sethe grapples with being described as part animal. by schoolteacher, right? and they struggle of the novel is actually a struggle about becoming. it's sustaining winds self in the face of violence. so there is something about the book that is both historically significant, politically significant around race, and also has a deep human quality. which i think everybody can connect to. >> professor -- i've heard from alan walls, one of our book club members, who says about beloved and tony morrison, all my own sorrow, pain, fear, anger and deep conviction, all of the sudden make complete and total sense. it was as if somebody was telling me is okay to feel the way i do, and that there are real reasons that i do. tony morrison about it in my own feelings in a way i have yet to experience in any other way. tony morrison's ability to layer so much truth, honesty,
and feeling itself you are the nation every page simply astounded me. i cannot thank her enough, and just writing this brings me to tears. so there is something about, as we discuss, sometimes in the words. sometimes it is the author. sometimes it is the ideas. tony morrison's words and her ability to write in this away, that evokes an emotional response, is key to why is important. >> absolutely. it is why writing good novels are so important. to helping us become better human beings. to helping us to see the world in very different ways. and morrison, tony morrison, is a master class when in this regard. parties will be so interesting about beloved is it she is engaged in this ongoing conversation with the slave narrative. and the slave narrative does not give you a sense of the interior life of the slave. because you remember the voice had to be authorized by a white preface. a white person writing the profits saying, whatever falls is true. so you've got this, book these narratives that are in the
service of the anti slavery efforts, but morrison decides to go into the depths of it. give us a sense of what is happening on the inside of the person who is experienced the reality of slavery. so that is really important. we get a sense of the complexity of the human being. but also, this is not necessarily just friction. margaret garner, january 18th, 56. she leaves a kentucky. crosses over declares herself -- ends up at a friends house. future slave, trying to retrieve it. she decides to kill her child. tries to kill her child. but she is return. so morrison takes real life and makes it this epic. it is actually -- >> a very difficult story to choose. if you are going to choose those experiences, margaret garner and the killing of the child is a hard one to popularize. which is why it is tough. last week, we talked about white board. a graphic novel about the holocaust. also tough.
tough to read about these things. but what choice do we have? i worry that people who say, i don't make it reading this book because it is accountable, it is tough, it makes them feel that. >> yes. the society is tough. living is tough. right? we are aware of unbelievable violence, particularly over this past week. this is not unusual. even in our own experience. so to ask the question, what would have made a mother kill her child? how does someone become that? and also, how does the community respond from that? one of the things that morrison does which is so extraordinary is that she always looks, or looked, from the margins. and allow those on the margins to become witnesses. here is a horrific act, how did this when we get to be this way, that is the question. that is a challenge to the society. how does someone get to be that way? and at the, and when the phrase is repeated, it was not a story
to pass on. well, how do we avoid passing this on? >> eddy, we were looking at a few passes just to highlight. and you have a passage about baby suggs supporting her granddaughter denver as she tries to leave the house for the first time in a decade. it ends with the line, no wait and go on out into the yard. go on. it is on page 288 of my version of the book. why is that important to you? >> it is the it. what is the it? remember that baby suggs delivers that love poem in the clearing. she says we, flesh out there they will lynch. you that wonderful of palm. and then, the horror of sethe's athletes or to her bedroom, under the covers. she gives up -- because white people can guard you suddenly inside that you won't like yourself. and placed truckers with her child's. so, denver, literally embodying,
imbuing sethe. knows if he doesn't do, it sethe will be gone. so she's afraid to step off the steps. suddenly, baby suggs, after this conversation between her and sethe is replayed, speaks to denver. she says, didn't i tell you why i have this -- did not tell you why i -- but you said it was a route, it is. no it. but going into the yard. do not be naive about the world. do not be naive over the evils of the world. but we must act anyway. in spite of it is all. no beloved, no buffalo, no way they are capable of doing. but we must act anyway. we must live anyway. >> that is amazing. this conversation is not over. it is just over for the moment. because my tv show is about to end. but we have a solution for this, so do not worry about. it eddie glaude is chair of the -- free american studies. author begin again, james baldwin for america and lessons for.
own it is amazing. imani perry is at -- author of south to america, another remarkably important book. i'm going to keep the discussion going with eddie and imani perry about tony morrison. very soon you are going to be able to catch the extended cut, which will be exclusively available on peacock, msnbc's streaming network. check on a personal twitter and audio account for the details. we are going to let you know as soon as it is available, at ali valerie, and at velshi msnbc. that does it for me. thank you for watching. back next saturday and sunday. do not when you are just next. up, yet next, michael steele filling in for jonathan capehart on the sunday show. which begins right now. >> this, morning georgia is on our minds after record setting early morning turnout, taking place in tuesday's primaries, and donald trump's rearrange fantasy we will have a preview of what's