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tv   Ayman  MSNBC  May 22, 2022 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

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i mean look, brian kemp as governor's passed one of the nation's most repressive overhauls of state elections ever. he has to press the voting system in that state. that is trumpism through and through. even without the former presidents official endorsement. and he's expected to win. it's to your point, it is a matter of the former president endorses your, not because in today's republican party you are either a trump fan or you are and adherent foot soldier and trumpism. there are hardly any republicans who have the courage to write openly -- trumpers. >> we need the media need to be open and honest about that with our viewers, our readers, and listeners. i feel there are too many people in the industry who wants trump is gone we can go back to the way it was. business as usual. to normal political parties. the republican party is long gone regardless of whether donald trump is in charge of it or not. >> yeah, i need to continue that conversation -- conversation with miles taylor. great to see you as always, my friend. excellent show. have a good night. >> thanks. >>
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>> >> welcome to ayman. tonight, the former trump official who just quit the gop to help save it from ruin. is it too little too late? plus, republicans want to regulate you. i mean, everything about you. what you read, when you watch. what you do with your own body. so much for small government values. then, new details on ginni thomas's or efforts to overturn the 2020 election as her husband ruled on cases about that very election. , i am ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. the country is in danger of imploding. democracy is in danger of disintegrating. those are not my words. that is the ominous warning from house majority james clyburn who told the washington post quote, i don't know why people feel that this country is insulated from the historical trends.
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maybe autocracy is the future of the country. before you at home say congressman clyburn's language is hyperbolic, just take a look at what is happening in pennsylvania and michigan. just this week, a self proclaimed 2020 election denier, doug mastriano secured -- a position that would give him control over the administration of the 2024 presidential elections. the same thing happened in michigan where republicans picked election denier kristina karamo to be their secretary of state. the new york times just released an exhaustive report finding that at least 357 current republican legislators in battleground states have actually used the power of their office to discredit or try to overturn the results of the election of the 2020 year. but, congressman clyburn's fears go beyond the election denialism, as bad as that is. in the wake of the mass shooting in buffalo where black people were targeted and killed,
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because of their race, republican congressman -- women list cheney who has become a pariah in her own party tweeted, the house gop leadership has enabled white nationalism, white supremacy and antisemitism. gop leaders must renounce and reject those use and those who hold them. that's an important statement to make. no doubt about it, but one that has actually fallen on deaf ears. the buffalo shooter allegedly used the racist great replacement conspiracy to justify his attacks. the conspiracy mainstream and spread by republicans and conservative media outlets in this country. but since the shooting, many of those who mainstreamed the dangerous ideology, the dangerous conspiracy theory, have actually doubled down on it and showing their support for it. it has driven at least one person to the breaking point. miles taylor, the former trump official he might know as the writer of that new york times anonymous op-ed. in a new piece out for nbc
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think, miles taylor writes that in the wake of the buffalo mass shooting, the gop quote, no longer represents conservative values, but in fact poses a threat to them, and to america. that is why i am quitting the gop. joining me now is miles taylor, the former chief of staff at the department of homeland security in the trump administration. he is the executive director of the renew america movement. miles, great to have you. thank you so much for making time for us this evening. let's start with buffalo. what was your reaction when you heard what happened in buffalo? >> ayman, i'll be honest with you, it reminded me of something else that had a pretty profound effect on me on if -- a few years ago. you recalled the mass shooting in el paso, texas. the shooter walked into a walmart. killed or injured dozens of people. in the wake of the attack, when they found the manifesto, he cited an invasion at the
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southern border as one of the reasons he conducted the attack. that was alarming for two reasons. one, just the naked racism behind the brutality. two, the shooter echoed the same language we received from donald trump in that time period. i had already quit the administration in protest, but it was the type of thing we had been warning about for years, that this dangerous rhetoric was like a loaded gun for extremists. when i heard what happened in buffalo, very shortly after we got news of the attack we started to get news about the shooter's motivations. it was a reminder that yet again, this extreme rhetoric from the party was not just resulting in extreme behavior, it was resulting in violence and death and tragedy. i spent the weekend thinking about that and thinking about whether there was any utility and trying to stay inside the party to bring it back to the center, or whether this was
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evidence that it is just all gone too far, such that the republican party is irredeemable, which i think it is at this point. >> so this irredeemable party, this party, as you described it now, if this wing or fascist wing of the gop continues to lead the party, what do you fear could happen in america generally, in 2024 and 2028, if they are, as expected to take control of the house in 2024, and who knows -- excuse me, it 2022 and 2024, if they feel -- >> a, minutes really tough to breakthrough the people on this, because people like you and i start to warn people work addenda, or james clyburn saying this could be autocracy, we are often written off as being hyperbolic. i'm just going to tell you, from having lived inside this party most of my life, from having served two republican presidents, still communicating with people on the inside of
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the people at the highest levels constantly, i am more alarmed than i've ever been. folks who think that we defeated the pseudo-authoritarian threat within the gop in 2020, when donald trump lost. they're wrong. they could not be more wrong. the threat is much bigger today than it was in 20, 2016, because trump and the phenomenon of trumpism has morphed, richard and metastasized within the republican party, to the point that no one can reverse it. i admire liz cheney and adam kinzinger for still trying to fight the fight within the party, but what's alarms me is that the base of the party has now been so completely radicalized, and again, folks will accuse us of hyperbole for saying, that but if you go look at the data, the majority or close to the majority republicans now believe the stolen election lie. they believe the qanon and they believe the racist great replacement theory. this is the core of the
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republican party. it will take a generation to excise this from the party. my worry is that the longer the gop base remains radicalized, the more violence we are going to see, the more uncivil rhetoric, and the more deterioration to our democratic foundations. that really is the worry. i don't think james clyburn is wrong and saying if that happens, it is a slow slide for autocracy. >> there is no doubt, miles, that donald trump accelerated a lot of these turns that the republican party has taken. i want to just hone in on something euro, which is in your piece, you write the party of lincoln once stood on, granted solid ground, promoting free, mines free markets, free people. some of our viewers may be watching this and thinking, what time period are you referencing here, because the 60s and 70s -- you know this country saw the gop fighting tooth and nail against civil rights, the 80s, the party sought to demonize lgbtq people during the aids crisis, 2000 you saw the party reveling and islamophobia and
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birtherism. it gave birth to donald trump and ultimately to what we are seeing now. when you look at the gop over the last 40 years, when do you think this party was the party that you believed in and committed to? >> well, look, ayman, we might disagree. i'm a big fan of ronald reagan, george w. bush, whose administration i served in. i think good things happen in the party through various periods, but my worry is not even that the gop is regressing to the 50s, which a lot of people are saying. the 1950s. i'm worried that the gop in some ways is progressing to the 1850s. i've been re-reading the narrative of the life of frederick douglass. it's almost eerie when you go back and you read writings from that time period about how even well intentioned people are waltzing zombie like into this racist american political environment. and no, we are not living in the 1850s in terms of the
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scourge of slavery, but boy, we've got a lot of people that are zombie like and not waking up to the realization that racism has been weaponized in this country, and that we've got people radicalized by gop rhetoric who are going and shooting black and brown people in grocery stores to carry out a political objective. i spent most of my career doing counter-terrorism. this is, by definition, terrorism. and the republican party is providing the ideological motivation that is radicalizing people to commit terrorist acts. ayman, this is one we saw with the rise of al-qaeda, the rise of isis. i never in my life thought i would see that radicalizing rhetoric from my party, the republican party, and resulting in the deaths of americans on american soil. that is when we are witnessing. it is not just a physical threat to americans with a spike in domestic terror.
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it's a threat to the foundations of our democracy, because the gop is spreading this deeply illiberal view of what it means to be a democratic republic. that is the deepest alarm. i no longer think we can reform the gop from within. i think we've got to counter it from without. >> let me ask you finally, if i can, why was this the final straw? why was it the final straw, to see what happened in buffalo and say it was time for you to leave? what about trump when he tried to impose the complete ban on muslims entering the united states or the way he denigrated mexicans and migrants or his antisemitism -- why was this the moment you've said i'm out? >> it's a fair question. it would be a fair criticism. my response, though, is that perhaps, naively, in that time period, i did not believe that trump represented the core of the republican party. i did not believe he represented the millions of good americans who were centrist republicans, and that he was the threat, and that he
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had to be removed from office. it has become abundantly clear that it is no longer just about trump. there really is truly a radicalized base in the republican party. that is something i know longer think we can reform anywhere in the near term, and to defeat it, we've got to do it from outside. the republican party. it's not an easy decision to make. nobody's got to play the violin for me, but it's tough to change that part of your identity, but i would urge other republicans out there to do the same thing. i hope people continue to leave in droves like they did after the january 6th insurrection. it's time to leave the gop. start something you. become an independent. join the democrats if you agree with them, but the republican party is no longer a home to rational republicans and conservatives. in fact, in many ways it is genuinely a threat to the public and threat to our national security. >> miles taylor, those are some very powerful words. i greatly appreciate your time and your candid knits and
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insight tonight. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> former obama education secretary john king on gop efforts to whitewash when our kids are learning. but first, cory coffin is here with the headlines. >> hey, ayman, the stories we're watching at this hour's new york city police are searching for suspects after a man was shot and killed on a subway car earlier today. witnesses told police the suspect appeared to be agitated before drawing his weapon and fired without provocation. he escaped when the train pulled into the station. pennsylvania lieutenant government john fetterman has been released from the hospital after a nine-day state. the democratic nominee for senate was recovering from a stroke and subsequent pacemaker implant. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy has ruled out ending the conflict with russia by declaring a cease fire or ceding territory. poland's president became the first foreign leader to address the ukrainian parliament since the war began. more ayman with ayman mohyeldin after the break.
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i joined the district attorney's office to pursue justice for everyone. but like so many of my colleagues, i resigned in protest because chesa boudin interfered in every single case and failed to do his job. the office is absolutely in disarray right now. chesa dissolved my unit prosecuting car break-ins. now criminals flock to san francisco because there are no consequences. we can't wait. recall chesa boudin now.
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republicans actually call themselves the party of small government, that was actually a thing believe it or not. these days the gop is on a mission to regulate everything you do, literally what you could marie, what you can learn, what you could watch, what women can do with their bodies. and in classrooms have arguably
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been the most impacted by republicans overreach. justice weak gop backed -- told publishers to keep critical race theory and social justice out of the state social studies textbooks over unfounded fears that those subjects could indoctrinates to. dense and now virginia republicans are trying to regulate kids read out of the classroom, they're asking a quote, restraining orders that would prevent private bookseller barnes and noble, from selling certain books to children over concerns of, you heard that correctly, in joining me now is john king, he storms of the secretary of education under the obama administration, and he's a democratic candidate for governor. secretary keith, thank you so much for your time first, i want to get your reaction a conservative assault on education that we're seeing both in the classroom, and outside of it. >> look, it's deeply disturbing,
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it's an assault on public education i, find it disturbing as a former social studies teacher i find it disturbing as a current public school parent and i find it disturbing as someone who understands the complexities of the history. i'm talking to you from civil spring maryland, where i live it's about 25 miles from where my great-grandfather was enslaved. now that's real, the cabin that he lived in still standing. the property still owned by the family, that enslaved my family we need to tell the truth about our history. the hard part of course the progress that we've made. >> sorry, should the department of education have accorded natural response to this republican regulation in the onslaught of legislation that we're seeing, whether it be virginia, georgia, florida should there be some federal
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attempt to push back on it? and whatnot that look like? it's critically important that the federal government protect students civil rights, that's really the history of the united states education department, we're really proud of the elementary and secondary education and it's seen as, from the beginnings of the federal role in education and the education part needs to make sure that schools are safe, and support of places for all of our, students for african-american student, for latino students, for lgbtq students and to the extent that the state laws create hostile environments. -- of course, the federal government needs to protect students civil rights. i'm >> sure obviously last week you saw that the gun man murdered ten black people in buffalo here in new york, his alleged manifesto cited racist ideology and beliefs, and since then attack black students and educators said that the failure to confront systemic racism, in
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schools and elsewhere, can help fuel these horrific events like we saw in buffalo, online radicalism and elsewhere and it shows the importance of teaching these subjects. do you think as we move, this country moves as a result of republican efforts to legislate but we can and cannot read in our textbooks, about our own history, that we're going to see a rise of extremism at radicalism and what's supremacy, like the one we saw in buffalo? >> i worry a lot that if we aren't having honest conversations, about trees that are history we will see students being more susceptible to extremism. there is a direct line between ku klux klan and activities love the kkk, in the years that followed the end of slavery. and what happened in buffalo. we have a tradition, extremism and racism that has always been
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with us we need to confront that i worry that being too cautious in our response,. i think we know need more democrats to stand up frankly and push back, this is something i've been trying to do, run for governor marilyn and say, our schools need to teach the truth of our ancestors, we need understaffed where we fall and short. if the students at a better understanding of japanese and, american intermittent maybe we would've seen the terrible hostility to immigrants that were characterized from the trump administration. if students had a better appreciation for the fragility of our civil rights and the period after the end of slavery or perhaps we, have a strong response now to these acts of racist terror, but understand our history is crucial to making sure that we build more just future. >> that's such a good point about the interment of japanese americans, only for --
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less likely to once again reengage in a kind of hateful rhetoric that's with stop anti-muslims during the trump years. let me if you can search gears for a moment, you are the first education secretary to call for a broad student debt calculation. present biden's single he's open to counseling up to $10,000 per borrower, is that enough or would you advise them to go further and be bold. >> i had very much like president biden the bold here. it's a matter of correcting a policy mistake over the last four years, if you go back to 1980, the federal assistance for higher education, accounted for about 80% of the cost of college. today, that accounts for less than a third of the costume we've done over -- as a country's move from thinking about higher education as a public good that makes our economy stronger, our democracy
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stronger, to putting the burden on students, families in the form of debt, and today keeping people from starting a business from, having a child, from moving forward in their lives, having president biden to follow the advice from senator warren, senator schumer should be looking at least $50,000 of cancellation, for all borrowers so that we really make identity in the racial wealth camp as a country. we really make a dent in the albatross -- and then x of so many young people, as they try to get started in their lives. and, if we do this we have an opportunity to accelerate economic growth, and economic -- in [interpreter] our society. >> secretary john king, thank you so much for joining us, have a greatly appreciate your insights and fascinating conversations. thank you. sir our conversation on republican -- next with my sunday night panel, don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.
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watergate parts of our lives ball beyond the classroom, earlier this month five republican senators sent a letter to the tv parental guidelines monitoring board asking them to add a new warning for parents, flagging quote disturbing content regarding eligible two files storylines, as the gop edges closer to their goal, a goal of overturning roe v. wade some republicans are actually now looking to restrict women's access to birth control let's bring in my sunday night panel to discuss this and more melissa from any of you lost, will she also clipper supreme court justice sonia sotomayor on this federal bond. john -- and abc the local ad and author of daily beast columnist it's great to have both of you, jonathan will start with you what happened to the party of small government, the people, the party that said that it did
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not want government, of your life and now it seems as though that's exactly what they are doing. >> it's a great question, it also extends to had happened to the party of business they are trying to get right up into the way businesses conduct their private business, these are not extensions of the government, whether it's disney, or one of these companies the wants to prevent from having its employers go across straight lines -- and they happen to live, at a state that doesn't allow troops short description so they are increasingly active as we beyond for any state. to something that is very much,
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reminiscent of the way the authorities governments are in the society developing orders, business around and orders and people around, tell us what they can and cannot do. so, this is a real authoritarian turn, within the extremist republican party. >> melissa, on terms of what jonathan was saying, but they can and cannot do i want to go back to the story i was just discussing, with secretary king virginia betokened pushing barnes and noble, to stop selling certain books can they do that legally speak? >> i think it's unlikely here that they have a legal leg to stand, and certainly take the pressure on them if they were to be legislation that be launched against the private entity like this, there could be questions about whether or not this sort of runs afoul existing protections for private citizens, not necessarily a first amendment
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problem, that's probably a first amendment problem in that the government cannot discriminate on the basis of viewpoint -- again i think it really goes to the point that jonathan's making it's really an authoritarian term, for a party that has created itself as being against regulation, it as pro business, and being against the so-called -- i still remember, back in the 1990s with tipper gore was derided by republicans for wanting the warning lying on that file rooms, this is the same kind of play about but it's not the democrats doing at this time. >> yeah, speaking of warning labels, jonathan, i want your reaction to this republican senator, trying to put warning labels now on tv shows that have lgbtq content as being disturbing? >> well,, you know it's understandable, that sometimes politicians, we just heard about tipper gore, and parents
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if you look at it from the perspective of parents it doesn't seem to be such a terrible thing, for these politicians, they have the ratings to be sensitive to different issues, but it really disturbing about this, they haven't even identified the objectionable content. it's just anything,, apparently they're related to lgbtq content. if they had, disney had done for instance that was objectionable, we would've seen that, we would've seen that extra -- that's consider objectionable. this is just their side of the policy. >> melissa, republicans are mosque-able weeks they're
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preparing for a post bucket marco rubio posing alleged legislation an abortion if -- again what is the issue at hand here legally speaking, because if you don't want to have somebody completely in your state is banning at you, now need to punish companies that want to facilitate the travel for their employees to go to a state where it would be legal. i can't think of any other example or similar example where something like this could happen. >> well, it actually has happened in our past, came in, in the loving versus virginia case, that was the case that legalized interracial marriage in 1967, when a lot of the supreme court overruled as a law that made it a crime to leave the state of virginia to transact in an interracial marriage. in a state where was lawful to do so. so, there's a history of these sorts of laws, but again, the idea that you can withdraw
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favorable tax treatment, from a business, that was doing business in their state because they were providing their employees with subsidies to leave the state to have an abortion -- to do so really strikes i think a post amendment claim dealing with the viewpoints. generally cannot target people based on their views, in this case of the country is causing pro-choice views might be seen as an impermissible viewpoint discrimination in a place part of those companies could sue in a claim against the government. again, it really shows a city by state settlement in this landscape with their into nor is it ever more intrusive regulation that will have a national nationwide effect. >> jonathan, please stick around. all right go i had jonathan real quick. >> i was just gonna say that these lies that are being introduced also allow people to sue anybody who provides an
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abortion. even another state, basically, allowing deputizing millions of people, to go out and harass those who disagree with them on this issue. it's real troubling. >> yeah it is really troubling, melissa jonathan stick around we'll discuss a lot more after the break coming up. the international criminal court has watched its largest investigation into war crimes over the russian invasion of ukraine. we'll tell you about that and more. that an more you're pretty particular about keeping a healthy body. what goes on it. usually. and in it. mostly. here to meet those high standards is the walgreens health and wellness brand. over 2000 high quality products. rigorously tested by us. real world tested by you. and delivered to your door
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one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. this week, the international court announced that it's sending its largest largest ever single feel team -- the 42 person team includes investigative teams, experts, support staff will work with ukrainian authorities that
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build these cases, at the same time as this formal group launches we are seeing realtime reports and news media also documenting alleged war crimes. just this week the new york times reported new detail of a suspected russian war crime in bucha. speaking with eyewitnesses and families of the dead ukrainian fighters. it is more troubling is times gathered footage from security cameras, drones, witnesses that shows russian paratroopers captioning -- capturing in bucha. it shows the lifeless body of similarly dressed men lying on the ground. james a goldstein, the director of the open society justice -- you served in the office of the prosecutor at the international court. great to have you with us. thank you for your time. what does it mean that the world is seeing potential war crimes unfolding in realtime because of social media and reporting from news outlets?
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is this unprecedented and your line of work? >> yes, the short answer is it is. the kinds of crimes that are being committed on such a scale, we've seen them in a lot of places around the world before. but as you suggest a response of the international community or international [inaudible] all at once in parallel, moving to investigate with a great deal of will and resources. it is certainly something we've not seen before. i think you've said it, the icc has now launched its largest field investigation. you have investigations by the ukrainian national authorities as well. you have investigations by more than ten different european countries who have had various ties and ways of investigating the conflict. there's been talk of a new mechanism of a tribunal of some kind of dealing with crimes of aggression.
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there is a lot underway. >> what are your expectations from the icc investigation that is now happening on the ground there and ukraine? >> the icc was a tribunal that was 20 years old, of course, it has wet? 17 different countries situations on its top that is under resource, has had -- success over the period of its existence. we know one thing it takes is time to do its investigations. all that said, it's got an unprecedented commitment of resources from a number of states to do its job as reflected in the number of people in the field. where they are now doing i'm sure, is interviewing witnesses, gathering the kinds of evidence that we would have referenced in the new york times article about the events in bucha, and trying to get as much information as they can about the kinds of crimes that they are really mandated to
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investigate, which is by persons who are the most responsible for the most heinous war crimes and crimes against humanity that have been committed. the challenge the icc will have is drawing the linkage from the kinds of events that we have seen in bucha, where we've seen executed bodies all the way up the change of the highest russian political military officials. that will be the challenge that will take them weeks and months. >> so you just took the words out of my mouth, because i did want to ask you about the challenge. i actually spoke with luis moreno combo, the founder and chief prosecutor of the international come criminal court about two weeks ago. in the early days of the war in ukraine, and i ask him specifically what you just raised, the point about holding vladimir putin accountable. take a listen to his answer. >> if you want to [inaudible] i believe we could explore that option, showing the
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displacement crime, showing that the entire operation is producing these displacement, and that is something that could be approved. that could be a way -- >> he seemed to think that it would be hard to draw a line from vladimir putin to what you saw, for example, in bucha, because it would be hard to prove that he gave a direct order for the one-off behavior of a group of rogue soldiers. for example, rape. two months later, do you think what he said is still possible or are you skeptical that you can actually hold vladimir putin personally accountable for what we are seeing in ukraine? >> what we have seen from experiences that it is challenging, but not impossible to hold the highest officials responsible for crimes that their soldiers are committing on the ground. when it requires is linkage
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evidence that shows minds of authorities, that shows seeing officials at the highest level had knowledge of with these troops were doing in areas like bucha, and did nothing to stop those activities, notwithstanding the fact that they knew what was happening. they had the power to stop it and did nothing. or perhaps even more directly, that they actually gave orders for these kinds of abuses to take place. those kinds of things will require information about how military and political structures are ordered, and probably will also require at some point which is called inside evidence, somebody who is in the chain of command who has knowledge of what's to -- know is willing to cooperate with prosecutors. and usually, the way investigations work, when the prosecutor say they will make a case against that mid level individual, it's an intensive -- incentive for them to turn. >> james goldston, thank you
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for your insight. it'll be fascinating to see how these cases build up over the next several months, and hopefully justice for the families is actually served. thank you, sir. coming up, new details on ginni thomas's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. don't go anywhere. e 2020 election results. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. [sfx: fighter jet flying] [tom cruise] tower this is ghost rider, requesting flyby. [control tower] negative ghost rider, the pattern is full. [sfx: fighter jet flying] ♪ ah, thunder, ah, thunder ♪ ♪ thunderstruck ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ thunderstruck ♪ ♪ yeah yeah yeah thunderstruck ♪ [waitress] maverick... [tom cruise] having any fun yet? ♪ thunderstruck yeah yeah yeah ♪ ♪ said yeah, it's alright. ♪
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welcome to your world. your why. what drives you? what do you want to leave behind? what do you want to give back? what do you want to be remembered for? that's your why. it's your purpose, and we will work with you every step of the way to achieve it. at pnc private bank, we'll help you take care of the how. so tell us - what's your why? ♪♪ >> so ginni thomas the wife of
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supreme court justice clarence thomas put to pressure to lawmakers to overturn joe biden's 2020 -- by asking them to appoint an alternate slate of electors figuring donald trump. according to reporting by the washington post. in fact just two months ago, we learned that ginni thomas also press for -- mike meadows to overturn the election. she seems very, very busy trying to overturn the election. let's bring back my sunday night panel melissa, let's start with this is there any hope for integrity of the supreme court, so long as clarence thomas continues to weigh in involving the 2020 election, with his wife actively looking to overturn it? >> absolutely. not this is unprecedented, supreme court spouses typically can't be very low profile, no one ever had a supreme court's vows he's been having fault in politics and lobbying as ginni
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thomas has been. and certainly, we never had a supreme spouse involved directly in lobbying for a attempted coup, the government and certainly not in circumstances where supreme court justice, or hearing cases on that very issue, justice thomas has already heard a number of cases, these have no cases dealing with the election itself. and at no point as he recused himself in though his wife has been deeply mesh in all of this, again, this is the same justice who went on the road last week talking about the integrity of the supreme court, i think he needs to look at the man in the mirror, because that's where this is all starting. >> jonathan and jackie or the supreme court rejected donald trump's white house document from the january six committee, just this time of the time was the only one who was sentenced seems as like a clear, ethical issues, why aren't democrats making a bigger deal out of
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this, if the shoes on the other foot, you know this would be front and center, you would probably have congressional investigation, you'd have fox news running with this 24/7? >> it's a very good question. the democrats, they don't realize that the stakes are very, very high in terms of the integrity of the court, i think they're reeling from the news, i think some people should understand, that lower federal courts have ethical standards, it's just the supreme court, that has protected itself from being held accountable, to any kind of ethical standard it's, like congress remembered that the excuse themselves from legislation that applies to other americans. the courts been acting supreme court has been acting in the same fashion, that must change,
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joe biden has a commission that's gonna recommend some reforms for the supreme court, so maybe that they're waiting until that commission issued its recommendation but you can bet that one of those recommendations -- in the meantime ginni thomas isn't just something improper, she's broken the law, she's done something that is criminal. some something that's criminal, think about this for a second, let's say that a person goes into a place where they're counting the votes, and says to the people counting the votes, see all those votes, you've already counted there in that ballot box over there, they don't count. they don't count. that's stealing votes, and that's what she's trying to do, she says that article two of the constitution empowers state legislatures to determine who electors will vote for, no it doesn't, it's anything like that and it's kind of scared that her husband might imagine
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that to be the case. the voters, the people, determine who the electorate is from the state should vote for not state legislatures. everything she says is garbage and criminal, this is what we need to start to understand. >> melissa, you have a legal expert here, you're the lawyer could ginni thomas face legal trouble, why has she not already faced any consequence for her actions and attempting to overturn the election, this isn't just about shooting the breeze with some friends say i wish trump would've won, this is what the party should've done, she's actively able people with power to overturn the outcome of an election? >> sure, supreme court said that president biden struck earlier it was -- their report in december, the report was never intended to make any recommendation on court reform, in fact, they sort of provided an assessment
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and there was no assessment about the possibility of supreme court being subject to the kinds of judicial ethics low ethical courts are required to, let's be clear those lower courts federal judge require are relatively thin to the other kinds of obligations that they have so it's a thin -- as a whole with regard to systemic's i imagine one of the difficulties here is the nature for the, petitioner has been -- likely treading very carefully to make sure that if they do bring criminal charges against her this is an ironclad case, open and shut, and they're gonna be a lot of questions about what she intended, when she said these text messages, winter intentions were, with some of these emails that were sent about the different state legislatures. she says their foreign, the bigger question is to the intent of what she intended for these emails to do in terms of their effect, i imagine that her status, her husband status is a big part of what's shaping
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up -- at this point. >> a point of clarity here. let me ask something quickly here, so our viewers aren't confused by this. my understanding, was that president biden said that the work of reviewing whether there should be reforms recommended for the supreme court justice is incomplete, that this particular phase they've got an assessment of where it stands, but that this bill is considering legislation that was good, it's not not your understanding? >> we may be running out of time we need something a little bit more urgent with the way the supreme court is overturning critical cases like roe v. wade and clarence thomas weighing in on the election, his wife was trying to overturn, guys i'm so sorry run of time for the show. it's always a pleasure to have both of you on, greatly appreciate your insights, melissa murray, jonathan alter, thanks to the both of you and thanks to you for making time
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for us, make sure to catch a man back on msnbc saturdays at eight sundays at nine, stream new original episodes every friday on peacock, until he began, on amiability and in new york, goodnight. york, goodnight.
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[digital sounds] director:all right, sir jackalot,

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