tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC May 23, 2022 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
this phone? fewer concert tickets. this phone? more concert tickets. and not just for my shows. switch to xfinity mobile for half the price of verizon. new and existing customers get amazing value with our everyday pricing. switch today. >> so, thanks for being with us here tonight. i'm gonna here tonight tomorrow night with msnbc prime. now it's time for the last word where ali velshi it's pulling in tonight. >> nice to see you, my friend. we've been orbiting each other for a little while, but it's been a very long time since we've had a chance to talk. so it's good to see you, and i
was listening to the great interesting conversation with kelly about it being difficult to prove -- but this stench think, you know, you remember there used to be a day when that kind of stuff just lead to shame in and of itself. and certainly kept you out of political life later. but that's not there anymore either. whether you can prove or not prove quid pro quo, that absence of revolving door that you described is compelling. >> well, the shame issue here, i, think is compelling, ali, because obviously, the republicans, particularly trump partisans, are aware that it is shameful to use government service or family connection to government service, to make private gain for yourself, and have private business game. because they use this as a way to try to attack president biden's family, for example, all the time. they know that this is something that is shameful and terrible, and that nobody should ever want to do, and they try to pin all sorts of stuff with that kind of a category on all sorts of
democrats. they know it's wrong. but when they do it, they're assuming, you know, there is assuming that if we bring it up, that there shame will, that there shame isn't operable. >> it's a strange phenomenon. as you say, i hope that thought. nice to see you, my friend. >> you too, my friend, ali. >> its primary day in georgia tomorrow. the peach steak was the canary in the coal mine, you recall, for publican attempt at election subversion. back in 2020, it was something we've never seen before. outlier that would hopefully fade when donald trump out of the white house. if anything, the opposite has happened. donald trump's attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election, only failed, because a handful of people stood up to him. and interestingly, one of those people was a georgia's republican secretary of state, brad raffensperger, who shot down trump's pleas to find 11,780 votes for him. the more we look into that chaotic period of time, between election day and inauguration day, the more it becomes, it
begins to look like a blueprint for contesting future legitimate elections. and although georgia lead the way in 2020, it's looking entirely possible, likely, even, that in 2024, pennsylvania maybe ground zero for an election takeover. let me explain this to you. this is doug mastriano. he secured the republican parties gubernatorial nomination in last tuesday's primary in pennsylvania. while denying the results of the 2020 election have today, become something of a litmus test in donald trump's republican party, that mastriano was way ahead of all of that. use before voters were going to the polls, to decide between trump and biden, mastriano was warning of a hit clarion push from the american left. in 2001, in a thesis that mastriano wrote, when he was setting at the air force's air command and staff college he envisioned a future where american democracy had collapsed, a dictator had taken over, and millions had died in
a purge with others being sent to political correctness, reeducation camps. the document is revealing for what it says, about mastriano's worldview, where he thinks our country could be headed, and what he is willing to do to stop that somewhat outlandish scenario from coming into fruition. not only did mastriano work hard to overturn biden's victory in pennsylvania, in 2020, he's made it really clear that he will do so again in 2024. in the days after the election, he was donald trump and rudy giuliani's go-to guy on the ground in pennsylvania. even staging this, this sham hearing, i got air quotes on that, that giuliani spoke at, and trump phoned in two. at this so-called hearing while making claims of electoral fraud, mastriano reportedly said, quote, we are not kings. we are agents of public opinion. now, that quote is a special
pointed in the context of how mastriano has said he would oversee elections, if he becomes governor. >> i get to a the secretary of state, who's delegated from me the power to make the corrections to elections, the voting logs and everything. i could decertify every machine in the state with a stroke of a pen via my secretary of state. >> stroke of a pen. corrections to elections, voting logs and everything. it sounds a lot like a king, or a not a craft, or a dictator, doesn't it? but you might be thinking, i live in pennsylvania, i don't care about any of this? which is exactly what doc must around and publicans around the country want you to think, it's not your problem to worry about. it mastriano won his primary race easily, by the way, with almost 44% of the vote. meaning his views on election subversion were not a deal breaker for pennsylvania republicans. if anything, they might be why he did so well. make no mistake, the potential
cost of dog must round of getting elected governor would be this devastating for the country. joe biden or any other democrat is unlikely to win the presidency without winning pennsylvania. and then a state that has traditionally been blue, or at the very least a bluest shade of purple, having a governor who's already demonstrated that he has no qualms about using his powers to change the vote to his preferred candidates should terrify all of us, wherever we live. joining us now is that attorney general, and the democratic nominee for governor, who's gonna run against doug mastriano, josh shapiro. it's only gentle, good to see you. thanks for being with us. >> the to be with you, ali, thank you. >> in a weird turn of events in this campaign you seem to be rooting for mastriano to win the republican campaign, even putting some effort behind encouraging it. tell me why. >> well, not at all. it was clear to us two, three weeks out, from public polling, private polling that doug mastriano was going to win that primary, and win it he did, by
an overwhelming margin, as you said. and we want to get a jump start early on the election campaign, pointing out just how dangerous this man is. he wants to ban all abortion and criminalize and jail doctors who perform them, without any exceptions. he believes climate change is fake. he wants to take away marriage equality in pennsylvania. he was there on january 6th when the police told him to stop, he kept marching in. and finally, he has boasted, not just about his efforts to overturn the last election, but as governor, he would overturn the next one. and then, he would rig the system in favor of his preferred candidate, presumably donald trump. there is a clear contrast in this race, the stakes couldn't be higher. and this man is a danger, not just here in pennsylvania, but to democracy all across our country. >> so what happens? does a guy like doug mastriano, sort of ensues the base, to
come out and vote for him? or do a middle of the road, pennsylvania, you might skew all the republicans, and say this is a bit much. >> look, i've been proud to win twice statewide in pennsylvania, on the strength of not just tremendous support from the democratic party but really strong support from independents, moderate republicans as well. i think we can do that again in the governor's race in 2022. but you know, he does have an enthusiastic, you know small group of supporters. and, you know, when you hear him talk to them, ali, and this is an important point, he talks all about freedom. he talks about walking his free people. i mean, that's a total crock. this guy talks about controlling women's bodies. that's not freedom. he talks about telling our kids what books they can read. that is definitely not freedom. he talks about, you know being able to worship what you want but it's only if you agree with his particular religious
thoughts. that, certainly, is not free, and it's not freedom to say that you're gonna let people go vote, but you're gonna pick the winner. that is not freedom, and i think the more people dig in, to what he really stands for, and the way he's looking to impose his views, and his will on the people of pennsylvania, that's not freedom, and they're not gonna buy it. >> this is interesting, because right after he won that primary, he made these comments about you, and they actually have to do with freedom. let's listen. >> go ahead. >> the future for pennsylvania and the josh spirit was an oppressive regime, not like east germany, where your stashed away. so, let's walk in freedom. let's statues this day. let's choose to stay to serve the lord. [applause] >> east germany, he backed u.s.. it's gonna be like east germany when we go out to philadelphia. >> i think we're a lot of people are learning is that he offers a lot of dangerous and divisive rhetoric. and the only thing more dangerous and divisive than his
rhetoric or his policies. policies that, again, with criminalize abortion here in pennsylvania. policies that would roll back so much of the progress we have made on civil rights, the kinds of things that he is talking about, we just inject total chaos in our system, and make it harder for our kids to learn, and harder for our economy to grow, and harder for us to have a safe community. look, i've been traveling all across pennsylvania, talking to some of the institutions that matter the most. and what they're talking about is the kind of things that we're gonna fight for, you know delivering funding for our kids schools, and more funding for police and safe communities across pennsylvania. and a community that lift everybody up, including those who have been left behind in urban and rural communities. he's not focused on any of that. just more dangerous, divisive, dark rhetoric that would take us backwards. >> you and i were in west philly, just before the election. we were out there one morning, and we were talking about election subversion, and you know, we often talk to jocelyn
benson out of colorado, the secretary of state there. i'm sorry, griswold of colorado. pennsylvania's gonna difference system, the attorney general's chosen, appointed, by the governor. mastriano has been very clear that that's what he'll do. he'll pick someone who will do the things that he's sworn that he will do. that is the thing the fundamental threat, anybody look who doesn't live in pennsylvania, that's a thing they have to worry about right now, that this guy's gonna pick an attorney, secretary of state, who might do something to overturn the election, which will have a national effect. >> yeah, that's exactly right. here in pennsylvania, our governor picks the secretary of state, a person who oversees the elections. and our governor also is vested with the authority of appointing the presidential electors. now, historically, those electors have been appointed by the government based on the will of the people, based on which presidential candidate got one more vote than the other one. and that has been understood as
part of our democracy for, you know, years and years and years. well, senator mastriano talks very differently. he talks about appointing correctly said 20 elections, it's 19 electors in the next presidential election for his preferred candidate, not based on the will of the people. and again, this by two water said before, it's not freedom when you say to the good people of pennsylvania, you go vote, but i'll pick the winner. i mean, that's absolutely undemocratic. it's not about the fundamental freedoms that we've come to rely on in this country. it is really dangerous. and when you begin to erode peoples confidence in our democracy like that, it makes it much harder to make progress on the other issues that really matter, like controlling costs, and dealing with kids, mental health, making sure we protect our planet. there are so many issues that we need to deal with right now, and if you've got someone as governor, who's gonna pick the winner and erode peoples
confidence in our democracy, it will have a massive impact here in pennsylvania, and far reaching impacts all across our country. >> josh shapiro, good to see you. pennsylvania attorney general, and gubernatorial candidate, joshua pirro. we appreciate you being here tonight. >> thank you. >> in our intro, we covered dog mastery on knows american conservative civil war fan fiction that he was writing back in 2001. and 2001, obviously dog mastery on who would never have become the republican nominee for a major state wide office would use like that. that stuff was too crazy for mainstream republicans back then, but the republican base has changed. something that donald trump identified and ran toward. today, on trump's hard right social media platform he's getting attention for sharing the words, civil war. the former president, endorsing a civil war, at least floating the idea that americans are at war with each other, or should go to war with each other. it's unclear because he didn't provide a lot of context. and in the wake of a deadly white supremacist extremist
attacks on black people in buffalo. joining us now is a former democratic congressman max rose of new york, who focused on these issues, when he served on the homeland security subcommittee on intelligence and counterterrorism. he is going to be running again. max, good to see you again. thanks for being with us. you know, we were talking a little bit about mastriano and what he believes, but he comes by this, honestly, he's been doing this for a long long time. he wrote about hillary and push. he talks about shapiro, attorney general pennsylvania, will run pennsylvania like a its's east germany. kind of a top that used to be nonsense, but i worry now that it riled people up, and in a world where we've actually seen it manifest in violence. it's irresponsible. >> it's beyond irresponsible. and you know, the thing that i think we all have to remember here is that this is not accidental. tucker carlson has mentioned replacement theory hundreds of times. the chairwoman of the
republican caucus, openly discussed it in advertisement, in multiple advertisements. and they are undeniably pushing and organized base. they see political gain here, and this is a party that is willing to do and say anything to win. just look at the cpac conference. they're centralized conference and movement ideology, is being held right now in hungary. last year, they held it in florida, to celebrate ron desantis. this year, they held it in hungary, to celebrate viktor orban -- >> a right-wing anti-hypocrite president. >> absolutely. i mean, it is just shocking. a former president who was arguably promoting civil lords, we'll, members of congress and the texas delegation, all republicans have signed a letter, just this week, talking about an invasion from mexico, just days after that same sentiment, that very ideology
of the great replacement theory motivated someone to kill, to execute a mass shooting in buffalo. mimicked after previous mass shootings in el paso, christchurch, as well as tree of life. we cannot take this for granted, and every time the republican party uses this language, it is dangerous, but it's also not accidental. and they have to stop acting like that. so doing consumption sides? you have resigned staten island. congressional district. mix republican and democrat. how do you convince potential republican voters that this is actually the thing they have to worry about? they may not like joe biden, it may not like things going on, but you have a republican party that is embracing conspiracy theory.
extremism. anti-democracy arctic platform the sand ideas. how do you have that conversation? >> i don't think that's the correct juxtaposition. this is not a characterization of that they're running against america. and generous excess, they rooted against our constitution, and supported a violent insurrection. we see them using language as i just mentioned that has resulted in people getting coat. and lastly, it is also essential here we are member the publican party is not presenting proposals for the very things that the american people care about. public safety, inflation,
economic growth, a large in the middle and working class. that's because those problems will continue. certainly, elections are about choices, as important of the democratic party those pose any notion that they are not patriots. we've got to feel proud to support the democratic party, but we have to go to the offensive. >> good to see you, thanks for joining us. former congressman. coming up, the baby formula was coming. because of joe biden. using our american power and military to solve the problem. plus, a surprising piece of economic data. that's next. a. that's next. it's time to get outdoorsy.
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today. u.s. military was filled with abounds of maybe formula arriving from germany. another shipment will arrive in virginia on wednesday. from there, the front of the transported to a facility in pennsylvania. so an operation of formula. it's the formula for parents. they criticized biden for the shortage, by 192 voted against some two and formula. any percent of house republicans, and they only offer criticism of the administration's handling. but despite supply chain issues and high inflation, the federal reserve's annual report on households released today.
financial being is at its highest level since the survey began in 2013. in the fourth quarter of last year, 70% of adults reported either doing care living comfortably financially. that's a stuntman have a and they're like a lot of the planned 6%, and wage both continues. how joining us now is betsy, chief economist. from 20th until 2011. thanks for being with us betsy. >> it's great to be here. >> let's talk about the situation. there's stuff that's happening that's real. prices are up. there is an impact on their feelings. but it's with us because of a bunch of things. we have haro of places because
of the war in ukraine. how should people think about the? >> what happened, was the government responded by making sure households could pay their bills. people didn't really go loved behind. and it worked. if you look at the recession, and took eight years to get unemployment to 4%. it took us two years this time. and the survey tells us that people took the extra money and said, i don't need to spend all of that, and they saved it, even though that inflation is the highest it's been in a very long time. we the highest share of households if something bad happens. households need these cushions. now, that's the good news, but
the bad part is, it's really hard to get these numbers precisely where. exactly how or should we give households and they then go chasing things that we care of the plane. but happened this, people got extra money, there are things like ours. and even outcomes to give them. so that push the price of used cars 40%. millennial started feeling marketable, in the sense of our home, we don't accuse them of houses available, if not a lot of money, a push to places up. we have people real here on the country because they're older from home for the first time. again, we said shows that working from home was responsible for a large share of the increase and housing prices, as people moved in reshuffled around to take advantage. so we have a problem which is
supply constraints mean that sellers can to respond this quickly as they normally do to increased supply. unravel all these households with a lot of cash. then there's not this inflation. that's on the biggest reason of inflation, looks reason as energy places. and that's on putin. so this by the look for the administration would have a situation where maybe it is below about more money and peoples hands. awesome >>, the same problem, we don't know lunch money to put in peoples hands. you can slow inflation down, and solve the inflation problem, we candle with interest rates so high, but just bad luck. so the answer? >> the problem as, the fed can't give us more cars or
houses or supply, when i can do is lowered to man bank using interest rates. and to get the goldilocks right amount. you too much, you're gonna put us in a recession, the unemployment going up, as businesses and consumers peel back one of them is necessary to lower inflation. do too little, inflation starts off. so they often do the goldilocks alum, and i think that experience figuring it all. i trust him to do it. the more we trust them, the more they will get there, because of love attraction. we have to get the rate raising rates, just try, and not too much. that's hard. >> sometimes you don't know until later, thanks for being with us, joining us now is this person, she will tell us about
tough issues. she's a founder of research and communication. bad luck for the demonstration. we have people who are home. of a stimulus program a lot people to get all that good stuff. but on the site, that parents you prices, supply chain issues, inflation,. would you tell the administration that they would need to do in order to communicate this, that the bright side of this is not the negative side. bright side of this is not the negative side. -- and what i mean by that is two things. number one a focus on the things that cost the most, housing, childcare, higher
education, it seems that we need most. health care care for our loved ones the costs are being put deliberately out of our reach by a handful of a maga republicans who are bound and determined to keep us struggling, so that they can keep handing it back to their corporate donors. so that is number one. and number two, there needs to be a clear indicator of the origin story, of where this hardship comes from, that in essence, gop might as well stand for gouging our prices, because as we have seen time and again, given any and every opportunity to actually help americans, afford the things that all of our families need and want, but they choose not to. >> how does that work, though, because as much as oil prices are up all over the world, and inflation rates all are up all over the world, so it can possibly be all july dense fault. ultimately, we know that that's the connection people make,
when their stocks are down, their retirement looks bad, their prices are up, they make seat every, day and the price of a gallon of milk, and we're gallon of oil, sometimes, it's not the most sophisticated conversation people have themselves. it's under these people, my life seems less prosperous. >> yeah, that's exactly right. and so first and foremost, we don't argue with people's feelings. that is a bad thing to do in life and in politics. you cannot argue people out of the feeling that they're having so some sort of vague reassurance that it is going great, look at the dow, we have all this unemployment. if that, as you write, is it what people are feeling when their day-to-day lived experience, arguing that none of that not just out of touch, but kind of callous. so what do you say? you say something, with an opening value, that begins, no matter what we look like, or where we come from, most of us believe that people who work for a living or earn a living, have time left over for a life.
but, today, a handful of republicans or maga republicans, trump republicans, take their pick, want to divide us from each other, have us pointing our finger in the wrong direction, while our families keep struggling, and they can't get back to their corporate donors. any time able comes up for what we need, and what the majority of americans support, whether that be childcare support, whether that be making health care affordable, whether that be bringing baby formula home to the united states, where we needed, they block it. and then, they hope we look the other way, and blame democrats, who in every single instance, are standing with and for our families. >> anat, thank you for joining us tonight. anat shenker-osorio, we appreciate your time. coming up donald trump's chosen candidate for georgia governor, senate loser david perdue is on track for a shell lacking in georgia's republican primary
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trump, is poised to become a loser once again. donald trump's chosen candidate, the former senator david perdue, the man on the left, who lost to john ossoff last year, is challenging the current republican governor, brian kemp, who donald trump hates, because he believes that kemp refused to overturn joe biden's victory in georgia. david perdue is pushing donald trump's big lie that the election was stolen. that's why donald trump has campaigned vigorously for purdue, including appearing on a local radio show today, spewing these lies. >> they tried to put out some sort of fake news about me losing faith in david. and i'll tell you what, if you know david, you don't lose faith in him. i think a big, big surprises going to be tomorrow. it's much closer than the fake news wants you to believe. it's called suppression polling. >> suppression polling. the suppression polling that donald trump is talking about is a recent fox news poll, showing brian kemp, ahead by 32
points. brian kemp has a bigger lead than david perdue has percentage points. david perdue is already claiming that he might not accept the results, showing that republicans are not just winning to subvert elections that are won by democrats. they're also willing to undermine other republicans. >> are you gonna accept the results of this election? >> depends on if there's fraud or not. i'm gonna support the winner, just because my number one point is to make sure stacey abrams never wins. >> where does this and, seriously? if the republican was on track to lose by 30 points, can't admitted that he failed, and he's not the choice of the voters, we are in a world of trouble. and if it's not bad enough, which it is, purdue also decided on the eve of an electoral walloping to launch a racist attack on a democratic nominee for governor, stacey abrams. >> do you know what stacey said this weekend? george is the worst place in the country to live. hey, she ain't from here. let her go back to where she
came from. when she called black farmers, you don't need to be on the farm and then she called black workers and hospitality and others you don't need to be, she is demeaning her own race. >> joining us now, greg bluestein, it's a political reporter for the atlanta journal-constitution, an msnbc political contributor. is the author of flipped, how georgia turned purple and broke that monopoly on republican power. greg, good to see you. let's talk about, first of all, the polling. it's quite lopsided in georgia. what's the background there? what's the likelihood of david perdue and donald trump being right there some kind of suppression polling going on? it's gonna be a surprise in georgia tomorrow night. >> if they're suppression polling, and it's literally every single public poll that has come out and months, all showed governor brian kemp, above the 50% margin he needs to avoid a runoff. and in many of those polls, show amid close to 60%. there are republicans who now think he could inch over 60% which would be a walloping collapse. it must also be the most
significant political defeat for donald trump, probably since he left the 2020 election, because of all the effort and resources he has put into propping up david perdue. so this would be a collapse. and there's no indication, and in close to governor brian kemp, or any advisers to. i haven't come across anyone mutual in this race, or allied with brian kemp, who is worried about brian kemp's chances tomorrow. >> brian kemp has the support of mike pence. tell me about that dynamic, and how that's playing out in georgia. because we haven't seen a lot of instances where you got mike pence actively campaigning for someone, against whom donald trump endorsed candidate is running. >> yeah, they have a proxy war, really in georgia between donald trump and mike pence. this was the most significant split for mike pence and donald trump since 2020 election. where mike pence is now backing ryan kemp forcefully, and he's even traveling to georgia, just now just wrapping up his speech a few hours ago in georgia, and
the county of a former republican stronghold, a land in the northeast suburbs, just moments after he wrapped up the speech, donald trump gets on a tailor rally for david perdue, and insists that david perdue still has a shot at his race. what we saw tonight in georgia could be for telling of 2024 presidential politics. >> all right, go to bed and now. and sleep in late in the morning, greg. because tomorrow is gonna be a big day and a long night for all of us. thanks, and nice to see you my friend. >> you too. >> greg bluestein, we coming, up beyond description. russian soldiers are accused of brutalizing and raping children and babies in front of their parents. today, saudi arabia saying, it's gonna stand behind russia. we'll get the latest, next. e latest, next finding the perfect designer isn't easy. but, at upwork, we found her. she's in austin between a fresh bowl of matcha and a fresh batch of wireframes. and you can find her, and millions of other
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vladimir putin invaded ukraine. ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, had a message for corporate executives and government officials, attending the world economic forum in davos, switzerland today. this is the moment when we decide whether brute force will rule the world. speaking to the conference by video, zelenskyy said sanctions against russia need to go farther, and should include russian oil embargo, the blocking of all russian banks, and cutting off all trade with moscow. so, zelenskyy said, quote, sanctions should be maximum, so that russia and every other
potential aggressor that wants to wage a brutal war against its neighbor would clearly know the immediate consequences of their actions, unquote. saudi arabia, siding with russia, at least when it comes to the old market. the saudi energy minister told the financial times that saudi arabia was hoping quote, to work out and oil production agreement with opec plus, which includes russia, and quote. opec plus is made up of the 14 members of opec, the organization of petroleum exporting countries, and ten other non opec members, including russia. the group coordinates of production among its members in a bid to stabilize prices. and the first russian soldier on trial for war crimes was sentenced to life in prison today, for fatally shooting an unarmed ukrainian man in the early days of the war. ukrainian officials say they've documented more than 11,000 possible russian war crimes so far including allegations of brutalizing children and babies. we'll be joined momentarily by an expert in war crimes to discuss that. but first, let's get the latest
from ukraine, from nbc correspondent cal perry in kyiv. good morning to you, cal. what's the situation? >> good morning, ali. where following two different fronts to this war. first in the eastern part of the country, where we are today president zelenskyy in that speech to that delegation in davos, saying that it's possible that 50 to 100 ukrainian soldiers could be dying every day. that is the first estimate, that we have gotten on ukrainian casualties. the ukrainian government is not really want to disclose those numbers. they call it operational security. the sort of northern part of the country now, and the town of desna, there wasn't a strike on tuesday, in which at least 87 people were killed. we think the numbers could be fine higher, ali. again, this is a number of those situations where we have these military targets being struck. we cannot access these military targets again for operational security. but it gives you an idea how that death could be far higher. in and around kharkiv, there is that heavy shelling all night, as ukrainian troops continue to try to push russian forces back to their side of the border, that is where we are now seeing
seeing these american howitzers go into the field. that is where ukraine troops are using them to try to keep russian troops at a four distance back, hallie. >> cal, they ukrainians have sort of said that they feel like they were at a turning point, with the amount of weaponry they've been getting. it's not they don't more support and more weaponry, but they feel like, they've even started talking about the fact that towards the end of august, they think they're going to be able to make a big push, vis-à-vis the russians. >> yes, so right now they're sort of framing it as a stalemate. but again, some of these counterattacks are really starting to work. and we had that video of ukrainian soldiers making it all the way to the russian border. it's a sign that they can punch through those lines. i think the one bit of sort of caution that they would lay out is on that eastern front, where you now have these fortified positions. once the enemy in this case the russians, have those fortified positions, it's hard for the ukrainians to push them back, and vice versa. it's one of the reasons that intense committees worried to have a stagnation here on the
ground, ali. >> cal, thanks for staying up for us. we appreciate it. cal perry for us in kyiv. joining me now is gabor rona professor of international human rights humanitarian and committing law and the school of law here in new york city. he's also director of law and armed conflict project at cardoso. professor, thanks for being with us. we are seeing these war crimes prosecutions. this one soldier, young guy, prosecuted. he admitted his guilt, shot a 67 year old man, he was on his bicycle. and other soldiers were trying to get away, after they had been ambushed. tell me how this looks to you. is this -- what are the ukrainians doing? and how does this set him up to be able to begin war crimes trials? >> it looks good, ali. and the reason it looks good to me is that, there's been an inordinate amount of attention to international tribunals, the international criminal court, u.s. human rights structure.
these structures, at their best, can work to hold those who are most responsible for the kind of depravity that we are seeing in russia. but not for the footsoldiers. for the footsoldiers, it's gotta be domestic institutions, domestic courts, national law. and so, the fact that ukraine is now conducting its own investigations, conducting war crimes trials, with the help of the international community, i think it's a very good sign. what we do have to watch out for, though, is to make sure that the ukrainian procedures are in compliance with international human rights law obligations for fair trials. this trial happened very quickly. we don't know too much about who was the defendant's lawyer,
and how much time they had to prepare, to gather evidence, how much of the responsibility can be sent up the chain of command, rather than to this individual. these are all things that are important, in connection with our crime trials. and we will need to keep a close eye on how ukraine follows up this trial with our others. but i think, bottom line, as a template for proceedings in the future, it's a good sign that ukraine has both the will and the capacity to conduct war crimes trials. >> so this was the shooting of a civilian in the head, on a bicycle. absolutely not something that you're allowed to do under the rules of war. although, we are now hearing about things that are really beyond the pale. obviously, we've heard about sexual violence, as a weapon in this war. we have had reports of rapes of women and the brutalization and sexual assault of children and babies.
is there, is it the same mechanism to deal with those things? because clearly, people can say, bad things, including civilians, might get shot in the course of war. we are now into a different category. these are what most of us would know to be war crimes. >> there is no doubt that war crimes are occurring. they are occurring on horrific scale. the extent of depravity is renda's. i would caution, though we are maybe not all that used to paying attention to the conduct of war, and the commission of war crimes in non european contacts. these kinds of crimes occur in armed conflict, generally. they're not unique to the ukrainian armed conflict. what perhaps is unique is the extent of media coverage, the extent of the ability to amass evidence for the purpose of prosecutions. and the breath of the concern of the international community.
>> you are right. jamaican important point, and in fact, there's been reasonable criticism of that, to say if we follow this, all around the world. we see way more of these crimes, and know how to respond to them. professor, thanks for your time tonight. we appreciate you. gabor rona is an expert on these matters. tonight's last word is next. st word is next. book with priceline. 'cause when you save more, you can “no way!” more. no wayyyy. no waaayyy! no way! [phone ringing] hm. no way! no way! priceline. every trip is a big deal.
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