tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC June 3, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
phenomenon. she won her semifinal and signed the camera piece and end gun violence, said she was influenced by the great naomi osaka and colin kaepernick. tomorrow is your first ever grand slam final match. she is amazing. she is my who won the week. i want to thank dean obeidallah and fernand amandi, and that is tonight reidout, and all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on all in -- the january 6th bombshell. >> were you worried about him during that siege? were you worried about his safety -- >> no, i thought he was well protected. i thought he was in good shape. >> new reporting from the new york times, one day before january 6th. the vice presidents chief of staff warned security details that the president was going to publicly turn against mike pence and put his personal security at risk. >> i hope mike is going to do the right thing. i hope so. i hope so. >> tonight, former pence aide
olivia troye on confirmation of her worst fears. former impeachment manager joe neguse on why we didn't know this during the impeachment trial. and former dhs secretary jeh jeh johnson on with this means about how close we came to successful coup. then, some surprise arrests of an alleged coup plotter. >> it intercepted me getting on the plane. they put me in handcuffs. brought me here. >> and ari melber on what we know about the rest of peter navarro and what it means for the criminal investigation of the president. >> we had over 100 congressmen and senators on capitol hill ready to implement -- >> do you realize you are describing a coup? >> that's when all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. the ex president of the united states, donald trump, created such an acute security threat to his own vice president, mike
pence, in pursuit of his attempted coup, that pence's chief of staff warned the secret service on january 5th that he thought that the vp would be in danger the next day. >> this newest reporting comes from the new york times. it breaks just days before the bipartisan committee investigating the 60 set to be begin its public hearings, with even more revelations short to come. we have known for a long time, in the days before january 6th, that there was a target on mike pence. he was under enormous pressure from trump and allies to go along with the coup. essentially, by throwing out electors from states that voted for biden and handing a victory to trump instead. we know pence tried to get to yes, calling allies and advisers, including dan quayle, to see if he could find a way to justify overturning the results, before ultimately determining that he could not do so. but that did not stop trump and
his fellow coup plotters, who knew that pence was unwilling to cooperate from turning the screws. >> i hope mike will do the right thing. i hope so! i hope so. because if mike pence does the right thing, we win the election. mike pence, i hope you are going to stand up for the good of our constitution and for the good of our country. and if you are not, i am going to be very disappointed in you, i will tell you right now. >> that is the message that the crowd, gathered at the ellipse heard, right before trump with them into a frenzy and then instructed them, invited them to march towards the capitol, we are thousands of them broke into the building, assaulting police officers and chanting, hang mike pence. they even erected a gallows with a noose outside the building. naturally, the secret service took the angry mob some of them chanting hang mike pence, pretty seriously. the secret service came to
achieve pence from the senate chamber, where he was presiding over the joint session to ratify biden's victory, where he was doing the thing that donald trump did not want him to do, that the crowd did not want him to do. we know what's happened next, thanks to reporting from washington post reporters caroline ng and philip rucker. quote, elite special agent in charge of the vice president's protective detail, twice asked pence to evacuate the capitol but pence refused, saying, i am not leaving the capitol. the third time, it was more of an order than a request. pence's detail it guided them down to a scare case staircase, a secure area that -- could not reach, we are an armored limousine awaited. pence is now somewhere beneath the capital with secret agents urging him to get in his limo and flee the scene. the center democratic congressman jamie raskin, who sits on this committee, which has been investigating the insurrection for nearly a year now, describe what happened next. >> so, when his secret service
agents, including one of them, who was carrying the nuclear football with him were chased out by these neo-fascists, and they ran down to some, still undisclosed and mysterious plays in the capital, he uttered what i think are the most six chilling words of this entire thing i have seen so far. he said, i am not getting in that car. >> i am not getting in that car. it's the moment of truth. remember, pence is under tremendous pressure to go along with the coup. he has decided that he won't go along with a coup and he knows that the president -- an insurrectionist mob just broke into the building with the stated intention of publicly executing him. the secret service is demanding that they assure him to safety and pence refuses to get in the car. now up until today, here is where there has been some ambiguity. because there are basically two ways to read what happened.
the first is that pence simply did not want to show weakness in the face of the mob. he did not want the image of what that would mean. this is the argument, his chief of staff, marc short, outlined last year. >> he said, i am not leaving. and the reason he said he is not leaving is because, he did not want our adversaries across the globe to see a motorcade fleeing the capital. he exerted enormous leadership under enormous pressure. and i think he, again, despite efforts to have him evacuated, said i don't want that visual for the world to see. i am going to stay here. >> there is likely some truth to that. but new evidence points to pence's motivations being a little more complicated than that. there is ample reason to believe that trump wanted pence out of the picture, so that the coup could go on without him. because he knew that pence would not play ball. but remember, we have just learned this in the last few days. because according to a newly uncovered memo, written by a trump lawyer, and said to rudy
giuliani, when that a judge found to not be covered by the crime exception and privilege, meaning it was evidenced and possibly a crime -- in this memo, right, they spell out a possibility of basically just going around pence. if pence would somehow just recuse himself from election certification, if pin says, okay, fine, i will not do it but i will step back, then a trump ally -- willing to go along with the coup -- could take his place. again, quoting from the memo -- i republican senator chuck grassley or another republican majority member would become the presiding member officer of the joint session in the election certification. and from there, it would be just a matter of following the instructions in john eastman's coup memo and handed victory to trump. again, this is key, think about this. we know there was a plan in place to do the coup without pence. right? if you get rid of pence and someone else is presiding -- because it's the presiding person that is the fulcrum --
we also know that people in pence's inner circle were extremely suspicious of what lengths trump would go to to get pence out of the way. and i mean, like, physically out of the way. rucker and lending reported one exchange, from a guy named anthony or not owe, a trump loyalist and secret service agents, and a pence adviser named keith kellogg. run auto, told kellogg that the pence's detail was planning to move him to join base andrews. this is on january 6th. kellogg said, you can't do that, tony. leave him where he is at. he has a job to do. i know you guys too well. you will fly him to alaska if you have a chance. don't do it. again, when i first encounter that bit reporting, i did not quite get was he was alluding to. fly him to alaska? right? if pence is not there, someone else can preside. if someone else can preside, someone else can do the coup. as the memo spells out.
so, one of pence's advisers reportedly thought that the secret service, under the guidance of trump loyalists, was hatching a plot to physically get pence out of the picture, so that the coup could go on without him. and this appears to be the theory that congressman raskin has endorsed. >> the secret service agents, who presumably are reporting to trump's secret service agents, they were trying to spirit him off of the campus. and he said, i am not getting in that car until we count the electoral college votes. he knew exactly what this inside coup they had planned for was going to do. this was not a coup directed at the president. it was a coup directed at by the president against vice president. and against the congress. >> and just today, we get a new piece of evidence. and that must have been weighing pretty heavily on pence this morning. right? as maggie haberman reports in the new york times, on january
5th, one before all this goes down, marc short, the chief of staff, called the league secret service agent to the west wing office. come here, i have to talk to you. the chief of staff had a message for the agent. the president, trump, who is going to turn publicly against the vice president. and there could be a security risk to pence because of it. just take a second to digest this. we have gotten used to a lot of this. by the vice presidents chief of staff, on january 5th, the day before january 6th, thought the vice president was going to be put in physical danger because of the president. because the president would go after him publicly in a way that would target hand and incite violence towards him. and guess what? it's a pretty good prediction. right? pretty prescient! pretty prescient warning.
and highly valid. in fact, we now know, also from reporting from the time, that while the angry mob was storming the capitol, chanting, hang mike pence, trump was at the very least open to the idea. quote, trump chief of staff mark meadows told colleagues that trump had said something to the effect of, maybe pence should be hanged. so, in that moment, in the undisclosed location beneath the capital capitol,, worried about his image, worried about his attempted who. and worried about his life. he knew the president would abandon him. but more than that, turn against him. and that presidential supporters might turn violent. had it turned violent, his worst nightmare was coming true. trump was pursuing any strategy
possible to hold on to power, by any means necessary. and at that point, because pence would not play ball, he was an obstacle. anything that would remove him from physically being able to dispatch his duties would be to trump's benefit, to further the plot, whether that meant pence was shipped to alaska or that the crowd just got their hands on him. olivia with troye an adviser to pence before she resigned. she is now the chief strategy officer for the renew america movement, an initiative to combat political extremism. she joins me now. olivia. olivia, it is great to have you. you worked with all these individuals. there is a sort of personal connection here. and i did not. but i still found the revelation today of short calling the secret service agent into his office in the west wing -- the day before this goes down -- to warn him about what is going to happen. i found it just mind-blowing.
>> yeah. i read that piece, it was chilling to me, knowing mark short well. and having worked with them and knowing the former vice president mike pence well -- when you read this, it sounds like you are reading something in atomic clancy novel. except for the fact that this is actual, real life. this happened in the white house. this happened in the united states. and in what is a democracy, a functioning democracy, for now. that is why this is so incredibly upsetting to process. every time i see a new story like this -- i have great concern. i was concerned for mike pence's life. i was concerned about the threats against him, and what's going to happen on january 6th. i was concerned because i know who donald trump is an identity is capable of. i know at that inner circle is like, when somebody speaks out against him.
i lived that and i certainly feared for the fact that i knew -- you know what, i had confidence that pence would do the right thing that day. but i knew that by doing the right thing that day, that meant he was going against trump. and when you do that, there are no limits to what that man is capable of. reading this, i have no doubt that there was fear in marc short. and that he knew what they were up against that day. >> yeah. i think what is becoming clearer and clearer to me -- i think everyone who is paying attention, particularly in the aftermath of january 6th, understood how serious what happened on that day was. aside from a bunch of paid propagandists or glib idiots trying to wipe it away, everyone understands what happens. they are two ways to understand it. when is that the president is diluted and infantile and stubborn. and got caught up in the conspiracy theories. and just refused to let go and
stomped his feet around and was facilitated by other people. and it all got out of hand in the end. like, it got out of hand and this is what happened. the other is that they had a deliberate plot to cake and seize power that they went about attempting to implement. and when it became clear that pence was an obstacle, part of the plan meant removing him from the equation. from the eyeah, it's a full-on o overturn a free and fair election. and that is what is at stake here. that is the most important piece of this, because i also, when i look at this, i think about the fact that, trump is still out there. this circle of people is still out there, and its influence is still out there in our political system. and what does that mean for the future for our country? when we're learning in realtime about what happened back then.
and look, as we go through these january six hearings, this is why it matters. it's important for americans to really realize how the gravity of the situation that moment, and all of the things that led up to it, and it was really happening here. this is the president of the united states, directly putting the vice president's life in danger. that is just unbelievable. and there is no way -- i don't care what political affiliation you belong to, no one should be okay with that. no one should give that a pass. >> and when you talk about the looming threat, right? this is an individual who's probably the front runner for the party's nomination in 2024, should he choose to re-run. what i can't help but think, and i know you left this administration, quite notably, i think in a way that very few others did. it's part of why i enjoy having you on my program, because i think you did it with real integrity, in a way that very few did. and the people mark short, who
you work for, right? he could've told the impeachment hearing. he could've made this public. like, it may have had an effect. there might have been enough votes to convict the president and make him, you know, barr him from future office. and the country would be better off, just unequivocally, and they didn't do that. >> yeah, absolutely. i work very closely with general kellogg as well. and so, that story, it doesn't surprise me, because he knows his people well. he knows what they're capable of. so for him to say i know what you're capable of doing, you know, take pence out of the equation, is because i believe that story more. i've seen kellogg actually speak the truth in meetings. but the problem is, he's back in line. he is one of trump's loyalists still today. that is still what is insane about this entire situation. and so, these voices, everybody
needs the truth. everybody lived what i lived during -- we all saw this firsthand. and so, now, we're getting these stories and books that are coming forward. but in the moment when it mattered, all of these people who would have allowed this person to get reelected in office, that's the bottom line, and they were going along with it, and january six happened. and that mom showed up, and there was no longer putting this back in the box, right? but looking forward, that's what i worry about for upcoming elections. and that's what i worry about, looking at 2024. what does this all mean when all these voices that could've made a difference back then, go back in line, and allow potentially, for us to be in a situation that could lead to a moment like this again? >> we olivia troye, thank you very much, i appreciate it. >> up next, with this latest revelation is for this public hearing into january six, right around the corner, a senior trump aide gets arrested for contempt of congress.
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half since the january 6th insurrection. we're still learning explosive new details about what happened on that day, and in the days leading up to it. the latest bombshell, of course, that according to the new york times, marc short, the chief of staff to vice president mike pence, went out of his way the day before the mob stormed the capitol, in a highly unusual action to warn pence's lead secret service agent, the vice
president could be in danger, because donald trump could turn on him. and we are learning this, less than a week before the january six committee kicks off their first primetime hearing. congressman joe neguse as a democrat from colorado. for inciting insurrection on january six, and he joins me now. congressman, it's good to have you. i think i know the answer to this question, but like, you didn't notice, did you? >> to be honest with you, chris, no. i certainly wasn't aware of the reporting that was announced earlier today. i mean, we, of course, i was there on january 6th. and the vast majority of the impeachment managers, we knew the threat that was supposed. i was on the floor of the house from 8 pm until 4 am, until we certify the election results. i can remember very vividly shaking vice president pence's hand in the early morning hours, as we finally certify the election and discharged our duties. but i wasn't aware of the particular, it clearly underscores not just the danger that our republic was facing as
a result of the presidents actions and his acolytes, but the real threat and danger that was supposed to the vice president himself, in terms of his personal security. i agree with my friend jamie raskin, the reporting that the vice president uttered and that entire episode are some of the most chilling that i've seen in terms of what happened on january six. >> again, i'm glad that marc short is cooperating with the committee. i'm glad the committee knows this information. it's important, and i'm eagerly looking forward to those hearings. would it help during the impeachment hearing? am i crazy the vice president's people have been like, yeah, you know the president did paint a big target on mike pence's back, and the hang mike pence thing wasn't short of an accident. i think it sort of had an effect -- >> you're certainly not wrong. i do think it would've had an effect. clearly, the chants six committee has had the benefit of time and the ability to conduct compulsory process and issue subpoenas and be able to provide document requests.
it's one of the reasons why the hearings will be so important. but i agree with you. look, i think part of the challenge is you teamed up really well, clearly, the former president was impeached for inciting the attack on the capitol. but the subtext was always this conspiracy, ultimately, subvert a peaceful transfer of power. and you see that playing in the eastman emails, and i think one of the central threats that you've sort of begun to, and others i think, are trying to trace is precisely what happened with respect to the vice president. >> yeah, i wanna play this thing. i keep going back to this -- there's two things. there is something that congressman geico said, something that pence, which is the same thing, like don't leave the capitol. even though the security situation is back -- here is how geico put it. listen. >> i saw a bunch of buses pull up. and there were buses to evacuate us. and let me tell you, in goose when you leave the capital, you've lost. and so, i started texting every
member i could, and all of our text, to not leave. if they tell you to leave do not leave. it's safer to stay here. we get on those buses, there's no guarantee you can come back. >> you know, that sounds scary and might hit some peoples -- but what i keep coming back is to get people to fully appreciate the violence and everything can be seen as an accident of everyone getting out of head or as part of the plan. and that ultimately to the extent that the congress is not there, or mike pence can preside, the thing that donald trump wants to prevent can't happen. >> i think you're precisely right, and i agree with my colleague, representatives gallego. we have spent weeks, chris, preparing rebuttals to the objections that we knew would be made on january six, myself, representative raskin, chairman schiff, and chairwoman lofgren. and one of the outstanding questions throughout that entire process was wet with the
vice president to? when he discharges his duty faithfully, or would he suffered the comes constitution? as the former president and his allies wanted him to do. and of course, one of the outstanding questions as whatever the vice president decides not to preside for nefarious reasons? and of course, you touched on this. there's some reporting around the senate, senator grassley, serving in that role rather than the vice president. so yes, i mean, clearly, we came very close to the brink, in my view, of losing a republic. the ability for our country to continue functioning as a constitutional republic. and i suspect we're gonna learn a lot more, starting next thursday evening, as the january six committee begins these public hearings, and begins to kind of tell the story that so many americans have not been able to white yet see. >> all right, congressman joe neguse, as always, thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> my colleague ari melber on the arrest on one of his guests last night, amid a coup plotter
and senior trump aide peter navarro. that's ahead. that's ahead allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good. ♪ ♪ i'm the latest hashtag challenge. and everyone on social media is trying me. ( car crashing ) but if you don't have the right auto insurance coverage, you could be left to pay for all of this... yourself. so get allstate.
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he was at an airport on his way to nashville, to appear on my khaki show, trump advisor peter navarro was arrested and charged with two counts of contempt of congress for failing to comply with a subpoena issued by the january 6th committee. the first charge was for failing to appear for deposition. the second was for appearing to turn over documents. peter navarro has been very open about being in the middle of trump's plot to steal the election, even though he is refusing to cooperate with the january 6th committee. navarro kept talking publicly about how the plan was supposed to work. he did it very specifically, back in january, with my colleague back ari melber. the >> plan was simply this -- we had over 100 congressmen and senators on capitol hill, ready to implement the sweep. the sweep was simply that. we were going to challenge the results of the election and the six battleground states. these were the places where, we believed, that if votes were sent back to those battleground states, and looked at again,
that there would be an enough concern amongst the legislators that most or all of those states would decertify the election. that would throw the election to the house of representatives. >> you are describing a wait -- hold on, you will get your turn. you've got your turn, let's go back and forth. >> okay. >> then, you will use the incumbent losing parties power -- that was the republican party losing power -- to overtake and reverse that outcome. do you realize that you are describing a coup? >> that to the appearance, on this network, was entered into public record by the january six committee back in march, when they officially voted to recommend contempt charges. again, peter navarro. then, early this, week navarro filed a lawsuit against the committee in which he revealed that he had also been subpoenaed by a federal grand jury in d.c.. you would think that maybe having a possible criminal contempt charge from the department of justice and then being subpoenaed by grandeur would be reason to maybe lay
low, to avoid talking so much. but no! last night, peter navarro went back to talk to ari melber on the eve of his criminal indictment being unsealed. >> the seriousness, for me, ari, is that the average lifespan in america, for an american male, a 76 years old. if i were to go to prison for a year, which is what the contempt charge could do to me, that would be about a fourth of my remaining life. and there will be a fine that would take a significant portion of my retirement savings. so, i am taking this very seriously. i >> can't think of anything more qualified to talk about peter navarro's predicament then ari melber. and he joins me next. me next allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good. in one second, sara... -yes! ...will get a job offer somewhere sunnier. relocating in weeks. weeks? yeah, weeks.
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now the future feels better than ever before. order x-chair with elemax today. use code tv and get $50 off plus a free foot rest. this afternoon, donald trump's trade advisor, peter navarro, appeared in court after being charged with two counts of criminal contempt of congress for refusing to cooperate with january six committee. each count carries a maximum of one year in jail and a fine of up to $100,000. navarro was released without bail, ordered to return to court in two weeks. he spoke to reporters on the steps of the courthouse, where he said he would represent himself in court because he does not want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers. in november, the department of justice charged steve bannon with the same two charges for his refusal to cooperate with the committee. the house also recommend the charges against trump's chief of staff, mark meadows, and another adviser, dan scavino, who have both refused.
meadows started to and then stopped. the new york times reports tonight that the doj will not bring charges against those two men. it is possible that no journalist has spent more time talking to peter navarro than ari melber. he is our chief legal correspondent and the host of the beat, 6:00 eastern here on msnbc, weeknights. great to see you! i have not seen you in person in a while. >> it's been a minute. >> first, let's start with navarro and his charges. what do you make of them? how expected or surprising with the development today? >> it all came attempt at him fast. this he had been held in contempt and people were wondering what the doj was going to do. he got hit with a criminal subpoena. that's a big deal. then he filed his own civil suit, leaking in the suit his own grand jury subpoena, which is allowed but unusual. and then, we learned that this indictment was put under seal yesterday. so, when he walked in for the interview, which you just played, he was secretly under
seal. but he did not know that anyone else knew that. the reason was because the justice department was able to prove to a judge that mr. navarro legally should be treated like a fugitive, like someone who is a flight risk or who might commit new crimes, like tampering or destroying evidence. and that is why he was apprehended at the airport. and as we showed moments ago, he was upset about that. >> yes, there are two things about this. they are the charges -- it's not that surprising, given that he flatly refused to subpoena and he was referred for it. and there was the means by which he was brought in. there was definitely a, like, do you know who i am, type of reaction. and a lot of people in trump world were like, how dare you? >> yes, that's where i thought he may be a valuable person. he may be a character. donald trump has hired a lot of characters. that's the most diplomatic way i can put it. but as your reporting has shown, throughout tonight, this is larger than anyone personality. >> right. >> it's that attitude, that idea of being above the law.
the law should only be used against others. he also said in our interview last night -- and alluded to this in his own lawsuit -- he is threatening other people in government. he's pushing back on this by saying, when republicans take power, you will work with them to go after biden, to impeach him, to use legal tools against other democrats. this continues the normalization we have all been covering. >> write -- >> that is itself a confession. >> it's the law as an instrument to obtain power, to reward friends and punish enemies. that's been the kind of ethos of the trump people from the beginning. i want to also ask you about the decision we just got. so, right before you came here, the new york times reported that the justice department has declined to take similar steps against mr. meadows, and dan scavino, the deputy chief of staff. meadows the chief of staff. that's according to prosecutors familiar with the situation and a letter from the house council. i maybe not correct with his.
but you have for referrals. four people have refused. bannon and navarro are getting prosecuted. >> yes. >> scavino and meadows are not. how do you make sense of, that legally? >> it is a great question. we have learned more about what the garland part -- the doj -- has been doing this week then i think we have, collectively, in months. >> yes! it was the part of the iceberg we could not see. >> so, going into the hearings next week, we now know exactly what you said, the disposition of these cases. meadows had the strongest argument because, the first way to put it is that he cooperated or pretended to, initially. and then they ran into disputes. but he did provide a lot of evidence. and some damning material about all of this. >> a lot of damning material! >> it appears to come from his text chain. navarro, we just discussed. scavino is the smallest fish. and that sort of round it out for those four. but i do think that, if you look at the precedent, now you can say that the doj has
indicted more than one person for defying these congressional subpoenas. that's a more aggressive stance than most justice departments. but this has been more defiance than there has been in history. but it sends a message of, yeah, you have 50/50 odds of getting indicted. >> yeah. and keep in mind, when you say blatant defiance, steve bannon was basically on his podcast being, go stuff it. there was not -- you know, with meadows, there was negotiations and back and forth. sometimes they're trying to find accommodations. that gave them the finger. >> yes, and you mentioned it's become part of this right-wing maga effort, by some of these operatives, to say that they will go farther. it's sort of a public putin primary. they want to show how hard-core they're willing to be. so, bannon and navarro -- people say, why did they talk at all? they talk to each other in the war room. navarro did several interviews, as you know. and they are trying to defy congress and make themselves look bigger in the maga movement while doing this legally.
legally, the question is, if they do lose at trial, how big are you in a movement if you are incarcerated? >> the final part of this, the part of the puzzle -- to loop back to what you said -- and there is this question of what is doj and what is garland. there seems to be, on its face, enough predicate for criminal inquiry here. you have a judge in the eastman trial ruling that the preponderance of the evidence indicates a crime committed. air go, the crime fraud perception exception pertains to this memo. what do you make of the navarro subpoena, the other interviews of some of the fake electors and's terms of how you are conceptualizing with they are doing a doj? >> well, as we reported earlier tonight, you can try to look at this as something that got out of control and was not organized. but when you put together the efforts to recruit state legislators, to put in fraudulent electors, to recruit pence and, as you said, his replacement to do this. all of this was driving towards trying to have america go to bed on the evening of the sixth
without it being resolved. then it is only under two weeks to the transition day. and from there, it is a race to the supreme court and everything else. and the violent insurrection advances those goals. we don't currently have the proof to concurrently draw that link. but the insurrection is consistent with wet that externally planned january 6th policy was. >> the point about going to bed on january six is a really key one. and that's very well said. ari melber, great to see you. >> thanks, chris. all right, coming up, jay johnson on the threat to former vice president mike pence from former president donald trump, that's next. at's next.
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[ growling ] >> the role of the secret service, of course, is to protect the president, the vice president, and to carry out investigations for crimes against the financial infrastructure of united states. usually, the threats they have to think about are coming from people outside of the government. but on january 5th 2021, the secret service detail, assigned to protect vice president mike pence, found out it had perhaps the most extraordinary, and unique situation, possibly in american history, because according to the new york times, marc short, pence's chief of staff, informed the head of the detail that donald trump, quote, was going to turn publicly against the vice president on january 6th, and quote, there could be a security risk to pence because of it. so they would have to protect the security of their charge from their threats and mating from his boss, the president of
the united states. the secret service takes this kind of thing incredibly seriously. the agency was originally created as a part of the treasury department, but it was moved into the department of homeland security, after september 11th. jay johnson headed up that department, serving a secretary of homeland security under president obama. he's been very outspoken about the threat trump and poses to american democracy. and he joins me now. it's great to have you on the program. obviously -- >> thanks. >> this reporting, you know, you are not in the department during this, you don't know anything, i assume, more than once publicly reported. but i mean, as someone who no secret service details, just like, your reaction to just imagining that conversation and that west wing, it's between marc short and the security detail? >> chris, as secretary of homeland security, i was the oversight for the u.s. secret service. i was also a secret service protectee for years. the secret service, the
protection details for a protectee's monitoring threat strings directed at the protectee constantly. i don't want to get into too much detail about that. so that is not unusual. what is most unusual, as you pointed out in your league in, is the chief of of the protectee having to report one, instigated, any threat instigated by an opposed to running mate. that was the absurdity of the times we're living in a year and a half ago. and i'll be interested to read what's in the forthcoming book, i write a new york times report, and like everyone else, i find it extraordinary, and absurd. >> sometimes, i go back and forth about, you know, this, how bad is it thermometer. i asked myself to not get too lost in the present, and not lose perspective about what the threats threat star democracy
are. one thing that i noticed is that the interactions i have with people that served in the obama administration who are pretty clear eyed, and have a perspective, i think, sometimes. and a little bit of like distance from like you guys in the news cycle get yourself warmed up sometimes. all seem as concerned as i've ever found them. i mean, that's true i think of eric holder. i think it's two of the ex president from the words i heard from obama. we are you at, as someone who served for this government, who thinks about american democracy, about where things stand right now? >> grace for a long time, we like to say we live in the most durable democracy on earth. we used to boast about how every four years, every eight years, we have a peaceful transfer of power. that is no longer true. we, as a democracy, can no longer say that we always have peaceful transfers of power. in january, after an election
year, we found out, a year and a half ago, that our democracy really is quite fragile you know. as the saying goes, it's the democracy, if you can keep it. and the reason i believe our democracy has been so durable for so long, through barack obama, the 44th president of the united states, is because there were people in power who were trustworthy, who were responsible, who believed in the constitution. and even where there is some graded the responsible thing, that nearly broke when we elected to the office of the presidency someone frankly who had no respect for the constitutional norms, and no understanding of the constitution, no understanding of history, no understanding of the rule of law. and our sister nearly broke as a result. and i'm not sure we could've survived another four years. ve suwe of course are speaking in
the aftermath of the mass shooting in uvalde, texas before that one in buffalo. and then the subsequent to holiday 20 mass shootings, including one in tulsa that killed four people, and also the gunmen as well. you wrote a very provocative piece in the washington post, saying it's time to show the real horror of mass shootings in pictures. why must innocent schoolchildren, for the rest of their life carried a vivid memories of executions of their teachers and classmates, while federal and state lawmakers and the adult constituents who elect them are spared? what do you want to see here, not want to see what do you think the power of the images of those children, and what that gun and gunman did to them would do? >> i really hesitated writing that. it's been on my mind since sandy hook, ten years ago. i know that i lack the moral standing to urge upon a parent that you should have an open casket funeral, or display the
photographs of your dead child. but we need a game-changer here, chris. and you and i both know that images are powerful. images can alter the course of history. remember the images from vietnam. remember the images from the bridge, remember the images from burning him, where fire hoses were turned on demonstrators. an image can galvanize public opinion throughout all history. we are hiding ourselves. we are averting from the tragedy of shootings like this, that brutal murder of children with assault weapons. and what i said in the piece i truly believe, why should a child, who was an eyewitness, a vivid eyewitness in this tragedy, who will live with this for the rest in his or her life in grief counseling, be the one to bear all this? but all the rest of us, including our lawmakers, are spared. so that's how i see it. i believe we need a gate change of some sort.
i don't advocate for the display of any particular images, but i do think the public and the lawmakers that represent them in congress need to be a lot closer to the strategy. >> what jeh johnson, think you so much for making some time tonight. i really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that does it for all in for this week. msnbc prime starts right now with mehdi hasan. good evening mehdi. >> good evening. and thank you, chris. and that's to atone for joining us this hour. happy friday. so the year was 1996. president bill clinton was running for reelection. two years earlier, republicans have taken over the house of representatives for the first time in over 40 years. so democrats were focused on every single how see they could possibly win back. one seat they had their eye on was in southern california. it was their candidate for that seat, speaking at the 1996 democratic convention. see if he looks familiar. >>