tv Morning Joe MSNBC June 10, 2022 3:00am-6:00am PDT
more video evidence, more damning testimony. an important american moment and one being held just as the former president considers running for re-election again. thanks to all of you for getting up with "way too early" this friday morning. "morning joe" with so much more on that hearing starts right now. donald trump and his advise advisers knew, in fact, he'd lost the election. in spite this, president trump engaged in a massive effort to spread false and fraudulent information, to convince huge portions of the u.s. population that fraud had stolen the election from him. according to the department of justice, on january 6th, 2021, the defendantsdirected, mobilized and led crowds onto the capitol grounds. the white house was receiving specific reports in the days loading up to january 6th,
including during president trump's ellipse rally, indicating that elements in the crowd were preparing for violence at the capitol. over multiple months, donald trump oversaw and coordinated a sophisticated, seven-part plan to overturn the presidential election and prevent the chance for a presidential power. in our hearings, you will see evidence of each element of this plan. >> that's the january 6th committee vice chair liz cheney laying out the case against donald trump in the first hearing into the the attack on the u.s. capitol. the committee presented new evidence and graphic, new video last night. we learned that, as trump watched his plan unfold on television, it was vice president mike pence who essentially acted as president, making calls to rush federal help to the scene. there is also new information on trump's staggering reaction to threats against his vice
president's life. and how a republican congressman who assisted in the election scheme allegedly knew his actions were illegal. and this is only day one. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, june 10th. quite a night last night. >> quite a night. willie, you know, picture may paint a thousand words, and that graphic video, the new video that came in, extraordinarily shocking. watching police officers getting the hell beaten out of them. watching it in close range. watching the viciousness of donald trump's mob. that was breathtaking. i will say, the words held their own against the pictures last night. when you saw the testimony of the officer, when you heard the testimony of people close to donald trump talking about how mike pence, he said mike pence
deserved hanging. you listen to everything that was going on and got a view, for the first time, from the inside of the white house. of course, barr and ivanka both saying that the claims were ridiculous. you saw a january 6th committee really start to put evidence out there that really just pushes donald trump's, the remaining followers of the donald trump, further into the corner of conspiracy theories and lies. the truth won last night, and, man, it's pushing them into the corner. >> yeah, this video is painful to watch. it made your blood boil all over again, just as it did january 6th. the video afterward, i couldn't help but think, if you're wishing away and whitewashing what happened that day, never
say "back the blue." you don't back the blue if you're okay with what we're watching in this void owe. plain and simple, period. as far as the presentation, it was somber. the tone was right because we're so used to congressional hearings famous for their grandstanding members running for re-election, signaling to their bases. these were more prosecutors than politicians, laying out a factual case, teasing ahead to what we might see. talking about a president, joe, who sat by. he is the commander in chief of the country who sat by. according to the committee and the evidence they have, at no time call the military, didn't call the national guard, didn't call homeland security, didn't speak to his own attorney general, did nothing to defend the united states capitol while it was under assault, and sat in the dining room adjacent to the oval office and watched a gleefully as mike pence
stepped in and said, we have to guard the capitol. president trump did not do his job and did not guard the capitol. mike barnicle, curious what you thought about the presentation. we can debate whether or not this will sway anybody. that's beside the point. this committee is telling the story in detail and based on fact of what happened that day. >> good question, whether it has an impact on the average american out there who watched this or perhaps didn't watch it but will see clips of various elements of what we saw last night today and ongoing. liz cheney was an incredible prosecutor last night. i mean, the way she framed it up calmly and cooly and fed into the pictures that we just saw, some of those pictures. i couldn't help but think, and i can't remember the congressman's name, i think from north carolina, who said it was just an average bunch of tourists really. >> yeah. >> for anyone to view what we saw last night -- and, you're right, it was hard to view and
then to have these same, specific members of congress who get up and talk publicly, as you just referenced. we have to support the police in the midst of that chaos. i mean, this was a planned attack on the foundations of our democracy, jonathan. >> let's remember, the republican national party, in their platform, deemed what we're seeing here, the videos, legitimate political discourse. the hearings last night, they were searing. they were vivid. this video hard to watch at times but so necessary do so. we learned about republican congressmen looking for pardons. we learned, again, that members of trump's inner circle did not believe the big lie but, yet, went along with it anyway. willie, perhaps most of all, just an affirmation that that day, donald trump did nothing to stop the violence here. the video captured threats to
the vice president, the speaker of the house, to democracy itself. >> he was enjoying it. he was flattered by it. that congressman's make is andrew clyde of georgia who said, this was a normal tourist visit. watch the pictures and decide for yourself if that's a normal tourist visit. the attorney general of the united states, members of the president's own family, his white house advisers told him in the weeks and months leading up to january 6th he did not win. they had no evidence that there was fraud in the election. he did not win. so he knew it was a big lie. still cheered it along. something else made clear, something we've been saying for a long time, this was not a spontaneous gathering that got out of control. this was a plot, an attempted coup against the united states government. >> some of the champions of the anti-trump movement last night were saying, well, the good news about this is they are revealing to people inside the white
house, people close to donald trump, actually did say and let him know in the clearest terms possible that this election wasn't rigged, wasn't stolen from him. he was surrounded by family members. he was surrounded by allies in the media. he was surrounded by staff members, attorney general, everybody saying that this was complete, utter nonsense. you know, though, it is interesting, george conway, we're going to get to all the testimony. one thing, though, that must be -- and i know you're frustrated by it. willie and i discussed it, all our friends have discussed how frustrated we are by people that we know, people that we love, people that we grew up with, friends of mine for my entire life, people i went to high school, college, church with, will sit there and they'll just babel on and talk about conspiracy theories. what about that? no. the truth was laid out. the overwhelming majority of
those friends of mine, the overwhelming majority of people i grew up in churches with that are spreading the conspiracy theories still, they weren't watching. if they were watching another channel, that channel refused to show the video. or put another way, george, that channel refused to show the truth. it's absolutely right. the truth has a way of seeping out there. not every person who voted for donald trump gets their news entirely from fox news. a lot of them do. i think, you know, they did an effective job of laying it out. laying out that this was not just about the violence on january 6th. as mike said, this was a masterful prosecutorial presentation by representative cheney. it was brilliantly done. what it did was it tied together all the various strands of what
donald trump caused and what he did and his criminal intent. his intent, criminal intent established by people who worked for him, people who were loyal to him, such as bill barr, miller, ivanka, and people who worked for the vice president. it was compelling. it was chilling. the videos were chilling, and it was -- i think it is going to be historic. i think we often forget, though, it's not just that the audience out there, people who turn on fox news, turn it off, don't read the newspaper and don't actually expose themselves to things they disagree with, there's an audience at 9th and pennsylvania that wants to know, or ought to want to know, is this a triable criminal case? i'm hoping that audience was watching closely. i think if they watched what happened last night, if the
hearings are continually as high quality as what we saw last night, they're going to conclude, yeah, this is a triable case. >> the committee presented evidence showing those closest to donald trump did not believe the big lie, that the election was stolen, as george was discussing there. not his campaign lawyers. not his campaign data people. not his daughter and senior white house aide ivanka trump. not his attorney general, who in a deposition used some blunt language in his assessment. we warn you, we didn't bleep the curse word. >> i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which i told the president was bullshit. and, you know, i didn't want to be a part of it. that's one of the reasons that went into me deciding to leave when i did. i observed, i think it was on december 1st, that, you know,
you can't live in a world where the incumbent administration stays in power based on its view, unsupported by specific evidence, that the election -- that there was fraud in the election. >> how did that affect your perspective about the election when attorney general barr made that statement? >> it affected my perspective. i respect attorney general barr. so i accepted what he was saying. >> i was in the oval office, and at some point in the conversation, the lead data person was brought on. i remember he delivered to the president in blunt terms that he was going to lose. >> and that was based on, mr. miller, on matt and the data team's assessment of the sort of county-by-county, state-by-state results, as reported? >> right. >> i remember a call with
mr. meadows, where mr. meadows was asking me what i was finding and if i was finding anything. i remember sharing with him that we weren't finding anything that would be sufficient to change the results in any of the key states. >> when was that conversation? >> probably in november, mid to late november. i think it was before my child was born. >> what was mr. meadows' reaction to that information? >> i believe the words he used were, "so there's no there there?" >> i wanted to get through everything. we wanted to play all the clips. we need to stop. let's bring in pulitzer prize-winning columnist gene robinson. gene, so much to talk about right there. it's kind of hard to move past the fact that the president's attorney general, who had basically been acting as his roy
cohn during mueller, during so many other times during his presidency, actually stopped and -- i know you write for a family newspaper. we aren't compelled to -- he called it bullshit. >> yeah. >> he said that trump's claims were b.s. ivanka trump, his daughter, said she accepted barr's assessment of the situation. the lead data person came in and told donald trump he was going to lose. he was losing. he was going to lose based on all of the facts, the numbers, the precinct counts. >> yeah. >> then alex cannon, in talking to the president's chief of staff, told him that it was all nonsense. and mark meadows said, "there's no there there," which i think, really, sums this up all pretty well.
there never has been any there there, and everybody inside the white house, it was very -- i think the anti-trumpers are right, it is great that we got a look inside the white house and saw everybody around donald trump said, "this is nonsense. you lost." >> mm-hmm, absolutely. that's what happened. and all of that points the finger directly at one person, at donald trump. >> one person. >> one person, one person. i thought the part of the hearing which i thought was certainly exceeded everyone's expectations, my expectations for its impact, how it was paced, how -- i thought it was amazing and compelling. but liz cheney's opening statement in which she made the case that all roads lead back to donald trump, that this was his
insurrection, that he inspired it, that he called this mob to washington, he sent them up to the capitol, and that he is responsible, that he did this. now we know it was despite the people who were closest to him, around him, who knew it was all b.s., knew he did not have any claim to remain in the presidency. there was no substance to all these claims about election fraud, irregularities, anything like that. he lost, and he refused to surrender power. it was an attempted coup. i thought they made that case in the most compelling way they possibly could. >> the select committee showed how it was former president trump's own words that led militia groups to the capitol on january 6th. >> what do you want to call
them? give me a name. >> why -- >> why should i condemn -- >> proud boys. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> after he made this comment, enrique tarrio, then chairman of the proud boys, said, "standing by sir." during our investigation, we learned this comment during the presidential debate led to an increase in membership from the proud boys. >> would you say that proud boys numbers increased after the stand back, stand by comment? >> exponentially. i'd say tripled. >> december 19th, president trump tweeted about the january 6th rally and told attendees, "be there. we'll be wild." witnesses we interviewed were inspired by the president's call and came to d.c. for january 6th. but the extremists took it a step further. they viewed this tweet as a call to arms. a day later, the department of justice describes how the proud boys created a chat called the ministry of self-defense leadership chat. in this chat, the proud boys established a command structure
in anticipation of coming back to d.c. on january 6th. >> willie, it's really something. it's so stark when you see the president of the united states in a presidential debate telling a hate group to stand by. then you get testimony from members of that hate group talking about how membership tripled after that fact. mika, we were just watching it last night. she said, he's just so brazen. brazen is one word for it. i have another, fascist. i'm serious. you know, for four years, people have said, oh, he's a fascist, he's there, he's that. you know, be very careful, obviously, when applying that term. i know people have recklessly used it against republicans for 50 years. but in this case, when you have somebody in a presidential debate telling a hate group to,
quote, stand by, then it is followed by the january 6th insurrection, that is just straight out mussolini style fascism. >> yeah. and they were listening. president trump knew they were listening. >> yes. >> there's so much in here, but they talked about selling merchandise, the groups, the said "stand back and stand by." let's get ready for january 6th. the date is circled on the calendar, "it will be wild." so these groups, the organized groups, and it wasn't everyone at the capitol, but the proud boys and the oath keepers, they were organized to attack the capitol. that's the case that the committee began to make last night. that's to say, they had organized stacks, which is a military term, that they were going into the capitol first. they kicked in the doors and knew where they were going. they were looking for nancy pelosi. they had schematics of the building. the rest of the people kind of followed in behind them. this was organized, and they were taking their orders from the commander in chief, from
president trump. we got an inside look at how that worked from another man who testified, a british documentary filmmaker, nick quested is his name. he filmed their activities leading up to the insurrection. he testified about his experience of walking with the proud boys on the morning of january 6th, even before donald trump began to speak at the stop the steal rally at the ellipse. here's what he said. >> we met up with the proud boys somewhere around 10:30 a.m. they were starting to walk down the mall, easterly direction toward the capitol. there was a large contingent, more than i had expected, and i was confused to a certain extent why we were walking away from the president's speech because that's what i felt we were there to cover. >> so at 10:30 a.m., that's early in the day, even before
president trump had started speaking. am i correct? >> yes, sir. i documented the crowd turn from protesters to rioters to insurrectionists. i was surprised at the size of the group, the anger and the profanity. and for anyone who didn't understand how violent that event was, i saw it, i documented it, and i experienced it. i heard incredibly aggressive chanting, and i shared -- sub gently shared that footage with the authorities. >> first, there was a large group of proud boys present at the capitol. we know that from multiple sources. you now estimate that there were around 250 to 300 individuals that you've testified. they weren't there for president trump's speech. we know this because they left that area to march toward the capitol before the speech began.
they walked around the capitol that morning. i'm concerned there allowed them to see what defenses were in place and where weaknesses might be. and they decided to launch their attack at the peace circle, which is a front door of the capitol complex. >> george conway, we've had members of congress say, oh, it was just a peaceful gathering. these are just, yeah -- not much happened that day. pro-trump hacks in the media said that. washington football coaches have said that. obviously, what we saw last night laid bare that lie. what is -- what's the legal import of what you heard there? >> well, i think the legal import is, ultimately, going to be what did donald trump do? it goes to his intent. while all of this was happening,
you know, 187 minutes until the time he told the people to go home, what was he doing? he was watching all of this. he was watching it in glee. he tweeted out an attack on vice president pence, which, as we showed -- as it was shown last night, somebody read with a bullhorn to the crowd that was outside the capitol, which led to the chants of "hang mike pence." to which donald trump's response was, oh, maybe our people are right, as cheney described it. yeah, he deserves to be hung. it goes to donald trump's intent. it also goes to the causation, how he caused all of this to happen. most importantly, it goes to intent. >> you know, as we're looking at the potential legal implications here, joe, i just want to touch on the political implications. >> right. >> yesterday, kevin mccarthy was -- he did a press conference
and said, "i don't remember primetime hearings on gas prices. i don't remember primetime hearings on inflation," trying to deflect from this violent attack, assault on our democracy. the question is, do you think the images so far on day one of this are going to have a political impact? where people see this as a violent assault on themselves, of members of this democracy? i know when someone is a victim of violence, they never forget it. they don't want to invalidate it. will the committee be able to really compel people to remember? >> well, i mean, will there be political impact? i don't know. i must -- i've got to be honest, i don't care. i want americans to know the truth. i want it to get out there. you know, mike barnicle, this is very personal to me. it's personal to a lot of people who have friends and relatives who have believed the, quote, bullshit, as the attorney
general said, that donald trump has been shoveling over the past five years, especially over the past year and a half about january 6th. so i'm not really -- i don't care about the political impact of this. this is about doing something much more important than winning an election or getting one or two points in your party's generic ballot test. this is stopping and taking note of the gravest attack on the american constitution and madisonian democracy since the civil war. >> you know -- >> and i understand that fox news wants it to go away. i understand donald trump wants it to go away. i understand kevin mccarthy wants it to go away. i understand so many senators want it to go away. we have to have a reckoning first. we have to have this type of,
okay, i'll say political reckoning, where we actually get the truth out in the very chamber, the people's house, that was attacked and savaged by donald trump's mob. >> joe, you've raised perhaps the most important point stemming from the hearings that began last night and that a lot of americans watched on their tv. it is this, we have to change the tense of what we saw last night. we're talking about things that happened in the past, but it continues today. it continues on a daily basis. one political party, the republican party, plays a part in the continuing attempt to ruin the democracy we've lived under for over 200 years. in state after state, there are people running for public office, republicans largely, intent on undermining the way elections are run, managed, and votes are counted, in state after state after state. so the impact of what we saw last night is going to extent,
certainly, into 2022, the elecks this fall, and into 2024. you have to wonder if what we saw, heard, witnessed on tv last night, will it rustle an awakeness in this country that seems sort of sleepwalking through the peril, the daily dangers presented to our democracy? >> george conway, as joe and mika were talking about kevin mccarthy, we know how kevin mccarthy actually feels about what happened on january 6th because it's on tape in the hours that it was taking place and the days after it took place. he was horrified by it. he said some of his colleagues in the house, republican colleagues, were putting people in jeopardy with their rhetoric. we know, and this presentation, these hearings will lay bare, that republicans know how bad january 6th was, how bad it is, and, yet, they cynically and cravenly go on trying to
whitewash what happened. we know how they felt how bad this was. >> this story, again, just like the people telling donald trump that he lost, the story of the severity of what happened on january 6th is going to be told partly through republicans. people pleading with mark meadows by text, people calling the white house, trying to get the president of the united states who was watching gleefully the violence on television, to get him to do something. and it's just a remarkable -- it was a remarkable thing. i think the best line of the evening was representative cheney when she talked about how the shame -- or some word like that -- the shame of this moment for republicans who have stood by trump, who never, will never, never go away. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," much more from last night's hearing, including the harrowing testimony from a capitol police officer injured
during the riot. what she had to say about the chaos and carnage she witnessed that day. plus, the explosive moment when vice chair disease cheney claimed multiple gop lawmakers sought pardons after the attack, suggesting they knew their actions in trying to overturn the 2020 election were wrong. and we'll be joined by a member of the house select committee, congressman jamie raskin, to weigh in on what we learned last night and what the panel has in store for future hearings. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> in our country, we don't swear an oath to an individual or political party. we take our oath to defend the united states constitution. that oath must mean something. tonight, i say this to my republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible, there will come a day when donald trump is gone, but your
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i can just remember my breath catching in my throat because what i saw was a war scene. it was something like i'd seen out of the movies. i couldn't believe my eyes. there were officers on the ground, you know, bleeding. they were throwing up. they were -- you know, they had -- i mean, i saw friends with blood all over their faces. i was slipping in people's blood. you know, i was catching people as they fell. you know, i was -- it was carnage. it was chaos.
i can't even describe what i saw. never in my wildest dreams did i think that, as a police officer, as a law enforcement officer, i would find myself in the middle of a battle. you know, i'm trained to detain, you know, a couple of subjects and handle a crowd, but i'm not combat trained. and that day, it was just hours of hand-to-hand combat, hours of dealing with things that were way beyond any law enforcement officer has ever trained for. i just remember that moment of stepping behind the line and just seeing the absolute war zone that the west lawn had
become. >> john, 8:32. jesus told his disciples, and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. it was the truth put before the american people in gripping video and painful testimony that was laid bare last night before the january 6th committee. it was the truth about donald trump, stripped to its ugliest core, as americans saw graphic images that forever demolished trump's fantasy of his rioters as, quote, peaceful people, great people. the truth? you heard officer edwards' testimony last night. painfully recalling her fellow cops being beaten by trump's savage mob. her fellow officers were bleeding. they were throwing up. i was slipping in people's blood, she said. it was carnage. it was chaos. i can't even describe what i saw. the truth? that unlike any president who
has ever served before him in this great republic, donald trump refused to call off the attacks on america's capitol. even yelled to his staff that the violent mob was doing exactly as they should be doing. trump would not stop the riots. the truth, when donald trump learned the mob's threats to hang his own vice president, trump told his staff, quote, maybe our supporters have the right idea. he deserves it. knowing mike pence and his family were in danger and on the move to try to find a secure location in the capitol, the defeated president decided to pour more gasoline on the fire and put the pence family's life in even graver danger. the truth, trump knew the election wasn't stolen. you've already heard his attorney general. he called it bullshit. his daughter sided with his attorney general. hiss chief of staff said there was no there there.
there never was. trump knew it. giuliani knew it. fox news knew it. republicans who sold their soul to a failed game show host also knew it from the start. they still do. the truth can set them free. jesus is right. it can set them free from the lies. from the conspiracy theories. from the un-american attacks. from the seditious actions that define who donald trump is. they have to open their eyes, watch the evidence, listen to the testimony, and turn away from the cyclone of lies that have enveloped them and their political lives since that dreadful day, when they chose cowardice over courage and party over patriotism. those who continue to betray their country, by betraying that country and repeating donald trump's lies, well, there's
another bible verse from the gospel of john. it's this, this is the verdict, light and truth has come into the world. these people love darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. >> i am not allowed to say what's going to happen today because everyone is just going to have to watch for themselves. >> we're going to give riot warnings. we have a breach of the capitol, breach of the capitol on the upper level. >> mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution, giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. u.s. demands the truth.
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mike pence, quote, deserves it. >> deserves it, talking about the infamous line, "hang mike pence." vice chair of the january 6th select committee liz cheney revealing that information, that former president trump reacted to the threats of violence against his vice president, mike pence, the day of the capitol attack saying, "maybe he deserves it." meanwhile, in another piece of evidence, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley testified it was vice president pence, not president trump, who ordered national guard troops to respond to the attack on the capitol. >> there were two or three calls with vice president pence. he was animated, and he issued very explicit, very direct, unambiguous orders. there was no question about that. and he was -- and i can get you the exact quotes, i guess, from some of our records somewhere. but he was very animated, very direct, very firm.
and to secretary miller, get the military down there. get the guard down here. put down this situation, et cetera. >> by contrast, here is general milley's description of his conversation with president trump's chief of staff, mark meadows, on january 6th. >> he said, we have -- we have to kill the narrative that the vice president is making all the decisions. we need to establish the narrative that, you know, that the president is still in charge and that things are steady or stable or words to that effect. i immediately interpret that as politics, politics, politics. red flag for me. no action, but i remember it distinctly. >> general milley there. richard haass and pentagon
correspondent for the "new york times" helene cooper. the evidence and testimony from general milley that we're going to see, that donald trump sat by as the capitol was under attack and did not pick up the phone to call the united states military, to call the national guard, to call his attorney general to effectively defend the capitol, he sat by and let it happen. >> we comfort ourselves that we're a country of laws, not men or women. it's not true. what this shows is how much character counts. at the end of the day, the laws only provide so much in the way of guardrails. you watch liz cheney. you saw what mike pence did. you listen to general milley. you look at donald trump. those around them, the giulianis, powells, and the rest of that gang. this was a close run thing. my biggest takeaway from last night was just how close we
came. we can't -- and the assumptions going forward -- you know, we're talking about what happened opposed to the future, but i take from this that american democracy remains vulnerable. there is nothing about it after 240 years that is assumed, that's locked in. we ought -- we need a collective effort to protect. as the founders always warned us, there is no way to build a political system that's safe from bad character. we had an experience with awful character. i hope we learn the lessons from it. >> you know, richard, i'm just curious what you thought about the world seeing this. we often hear people saying, oh, well, the world is seeing what's happening in the united states, what happened january 6th, what happened with donald trump, but there is an accounting here. there is truth telling here.
there were members of his people surrounding him at the white house that were telling him he couldn't do this. there were, of course, 63 federal judges who threw every case out. do you get any comfort from that at all? >> it's a mixed bag, joe. on one hand, you have all that. i think part of the answer to your question will depend on what happens down the road. will there actually be certain changes in our political system? we might not know the answer to that for several years. we look what happens with electors in 2024 or down the road, how the electoral count act is ultimately changed or not. but i think a lot of foreigners look at this, and it's not seen in a vacuum. look what you've been talking about for the last two weeks on this show, about gun violence. they look at it against backdrop of opioid deaths. they lock at it against the backdrop of the fact that we had
tens of millions of americans who had access to vaccines but wouldn't take them. they shake their head and go, this is not the america we thought we knew. our friends look at it and say, we're not so sure we want to put our safety in the hands of such a society. our adversaries look at it and actually take heart. they say, "look how divided these americans are." i think one of the reasons vladimir putin invaded ukraine is he looked at january 6th and said, i don't have to worry about this country. they're so divided against themselves, nobody will stand up to me. why would the world want to be democratic when they look at january 6th, still what is happening, people not willing to face the truth. yeah, there is good news we have a hearing like this. i thought the approach of liz cheney was so powerful, laying out the facts. i think a lot of the world will also say, does this really make a difference? have the americans learned their lessons? have they gone back to the
america we thought we knew? i think something will depend on that. >> well, the chairman of the january 6th committee, bennie thompson, made that very point in his opening statement last night. that the world is watching. >> january 6th and the lies that led to insurrection helped put 2 1/2 centuries of constitutional democracy at risk. the world is watching what we do here. america has long been expected to be a shining city on the hill, a beacon of hope and freedom. a model for others when we are at our best. how can we play that role when our house is in such disorder? we must confront the truth with candor, resolve, and determination. we need to show that we are worthy of the gifts that are the birthright of every american.
that begins here, and it begins now, with a true accounting of what happened and what led to the attack on our constitution and our democracy. >> i think it's why it is so important, joe, that the world sees the united states of america taking part in an exercise of self-examination and what happened. yes, democracy is vulnerable, as richard haass said. we're number one when it comes to guns. we have a lot of problems, but i think this process is actually really important in terms of bringing america back. some believe it already is. some question that. >> yeah. you know, it is true, the world is watching. i think it is more important that america watches. as richard haass said, we have to remain vigilant, and that's nothing new. ronald reagan quote is, as richard said that, it are
emind reminded me of, freedom is never one generation away from extinction. we didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. it must be protected. we must remain vigilant. >> precious. >> ronald reagan said. helene cooper, you've actually spent some time with general milley, i understand. he obviously played a vital role, not only in the hearings last night by some of his taped testimony, but obviously in the months leading up to the election and in the months, well, leading up -- in the month or two leading up to january 6th after the election. i'm curious, what was your takeaway from what general milley said? what was your takeaway from last night? >> hi, joe. hi, mika. thanks for having me. you know, the pentagon on
january 6th was in fits over sort of mixed messaging coming out of the white house. they had been so braced for president trump to try to use them against, you know, against americans who they thought, who trump thought were opposed to him, that when the time came for the military and the guard to get out and protect all americans, protect the capitol, they were a little slower. they were also a little slower because they weren't getting the direction from the president. we wrote about this on that day, in fact. i remember talking to somebody with the army secretary, the army secretary's office, about
why are the national guard not out there yet? the response i got was, "the president doesn't want to order them." as it turned out, the national guard did eventually get there, but there was quite a lot of time between that. so watching this hearing last night, it just so struck me how, for one thing, on a personal level, i felt really sad. i felt a little sorry for the january 6th committee because they've been so steeped in january 6th for the last year and a half. just watching the hearing last night just reminded me of just how depressed i felt about this country at that -- in that moment. but your conversation just now about whether, you know, this attack on democracy and whether or not our institutions held. while they did hold and we can take some solace from the fact that, at the end of the day, our
institutions did hold, you know, democracy is such a fragile thing, which is something general milley, who i spent the last week traveling with, talks about all the time. he has been -- i think he was quite bruised from what happened on that day. i think the whole experience of time -- you know, there was a moment between the george floyd murder and the inauguration day for joe biden when the pentagon personified by general milley thought that they were perhaps the last bulwark standing there to keep our democracy going. that's a weird position to be putting our military in, when you're talking about domestic, at home. but that's something that if you talk to general milley, he talks about constantly.
just that weight of responsibility, of i swore an oath to the constitution. i did not swear an oath to a person. that's a line that we expect these very young men and women who are in our military and in the national guard, who protect us, to continue to remember. >> yeah. no doubt about it. mike barnicle, you have this morning -- let's talk about liz cheney for a second. you have ed luce talking about liz cheney, an american profile in courage after the capitol attack. ed says, a lot of politicians through the years have loved quoting winston churchill. very few actually show churchillian courage. we've certainly seen that with zelenskyy in ukraine in the most graphic of terms. but luce says we saw some of that with liz cheney.
as liz occupies, you could call it, to paraphrase jenkins, a paradoxical terrain. the fact that she is sitting here among democrats and is actually the person that is speaking truth to power, to a republican president, doing it fearlessly, again, on paradoxical terrain, the last place many people would have expected her to be two, three years ago is, i would say, extraordinary, but, really, not to take anything away from liz because liz would say this, i'm sure, it's not extraordinary to liz. it's not extraordinary to adam kinzinger. it is not extraordinary to george conway.
it's not extraordinary to people who have been republicans their whole life and loved their own country. >> loved this country. >> it's just the right thing to do. i think that's what liz cheney would tell you. and the fact that it's been described as churchillian, the fact that it is being described as extraordinary says a lot about liz cheney. i think it says a lot more about just how intellectually and morally bankrupt liz's party is. >> well, you know, joe, i mean, january 6th, just to cite one day that we're talking about here this morning, shows that there was an extraordinary absence of courage, political courage, and there was an extraordinary semblance and an
arrival of character among some people. liz cheney is specifically included in that as having character. general mark milley has character. character is an all-important function in people who are supposedly in charge of our government. liz cheney's role in this was defined, i think, for all time last night by her comment that, you know, you'll live in dishonor forever. i don't remember what the exact phrase was. she has covered herself in glory. she has covered herself clothed in character. she has risked her political future, certainly, in order to tell this country exactly what happened. basically, again, as we were talking about in the last hour, you know, trying to shake this country from the sleepwalking, from the dangers that we're all just walking through. i mean, the reagan quote, that freedom isn't free, obviously, and freedom is something we
could lose in a generation. you can't help but get the sense, watching what we saw last night, witnessing it, we were on the verge of perhaps losing our democracy. it is people like liz cheney who stands alone in her party, as you referenced, stands alone in her party, stands for the truth with basically armed with her own character. willie, it is incredible that an entire political party seems to have left us in terms of truth, common sense, and character. that's the republican party. >> and liz cheney has made that point time and again. joe, as mike said, she's in trouble in her primary. she just is. she's running against a trump-backed candidate in wyoming. she's down over double digits. guess what? it doesn't matter. there are 435 members of congress. they come and go, most of them are forgotten by history. she will not be forgotten by
history. she will be remembered for doing this at her own political peril. she knows that. she knows she's taking a risk. she knows there is a very good chance she's going to lose her primary because of this. she doesn't care because this is too important. that is political courage. the bar for political courage has been lowered. this seems obvious to most of us, but she is risking her job, something no other republican has been willing to do in this case. >> i believe that public servant is an honorable profession. i was deeply honored to be a member of congress. i felt like it was just -- i thought it was a great job. i loved the opportunity of being able to represent people in my district. one of the great honors of my life. i say all that to say, at the same time, congressmen are a
dime a dozen. like, there are 435 of them. i remember walking out on the house floor about five years in, and i just looked across the vast expanse, gene robinson. i said, "wow, there are sure a lot of people here." >> a lot of us. >> a lot of people in this room. maybe i'm not as special as i thought i was. >> aw. >> i will tell you, liz cheney, she has separated herself from the 435. you know, gene, like you, i've been reading history my entire life. i can't name more than probably 10, 15 members of the united states senate from the 1950s. but i can tell ya, margaret smith's story. as men cowered all around her, as dwight eisenhower cowered, as mccarthyism was going full tilt and mccarthy was even attacking,
you know, one of -- george marshall, one of eisenhower's most important allies, and a guy that helped him throughout his career, as the republicans were hiding and cowering in the corner, margaret chase smith walks to the senate floor, her hands shaking. mccarthy comes up and says, "i hear you're going to deliver a speech." chase quietly says, "yes, i am. and i don't think you're going to like it." she goes out there, a very nervous woman, a flawed woman like we are all flawed. people have tried to paint her out to be this saint. a flawed woman, a frightened woman at the time, and she went out and she delivered the speech, and she began to push back against joseph mccarthy. it is an extraordinary story, a
story that still inspires today. i can't help but think that 50 years from now, 60 years from now, as this republic survives, people will look back on liz cheney the same way. >> and i think that's absolutely right. i think people will -- people certainly will remember her long after they have forgotten most of the members of congress. although, joe, you've always been special. >> yeah. of course, very memorable. >> but a few things. let's also remember congressman, republican congressman adam kinzinger, also there. he didn't get to speak last night, but i'm sure he will speak in further hearings. but he is another republican who just said, "no, no, this is b.s. no." stood up for truth. you know, you can run from the truth, but you can't hide.
much has been made of the fact that last night's hearing was not carried on fox, but it was carried on this netnetwork, on , abc, cbs, nbc. it was carried on pbs. it was there. you had to make an affirmative decision not to watch it, really, not to be influenced by or polluted, i guess, by this truth that was being spoken. but it was there. not everyone who has been caught up in the trump cult was able to avoid hearing truth last night. so i think we should recognize that. and the other thing is, there's one really, really important viewer of last night's hearing. that would be attorney general merrick garland. in those opening statements,
chairman thompson and liz cheney laid out, as prosecutors do, a criminal case. they laid out a criminal case against donald trump. promised or certainly suggested that a case will be laid out against other officials potentially. people around trump. so garland is going to have to make that call. he is going to have to make the decision as to whether this is a case that can and should be prosecuted. should be pursued by the justice department. we'll have to see what he does. >> gene robinson, thank you. the select committee argued last night and said it'd lay out in future hearings evidence that those who attacked the capitol on january 6th were there for one reason, to gene's point, because donald trump told them to come. here is video the committee
presented to close out last night's hearing, using the insurrectionists' own words to make their case. >> we were invited by the president of the united states! >> what really made me want to come was the fact that, you know, i had supported trump all that time. i did believe, you know, that the election was being stolen. trump asked us to come. >> he personally asked for us to come to d.c. that day. i thought, for everything he's done for us, if this is the only thing he's going to ask of me, i'll do it. >> we're going to walk down to the capitol. >> did you hear president trump mentioning going to the capitol during the speech? >> that's one of my disappointments. he said he was going to go with us, he was going to be there. i know i was there, and that's because he called me there. he laid out what is happening in our government. he laid it out.
>> i remember donald trump telling people to be there. i mean, to support. >> you mentioned that the president asked you. do you remember a specific message? >> basically, he asked for us to come to d.c., that big things are going to happen. >> he said, i have something very important to say on january 6th, or something like that. it's what got me interested to be there. >> you know, trump asked me for two things. he asked me for my vote, and he asked me to come on january 6th. >> chilling. let's bring in host and executive producer of "the circus" on showtime, national affairs analyst john heilemann. >> give us your take. >> so, man, what a great hearing. from the standpoint of what you've been talking about this morning, the question we all asked -- a lot of questions were asked. the most important one to a lot
of us is what would we learn? i think even for people who follow this story very closely, obsessively, probably to an unhealthy degree, there were lots of revelations yesterday. new information that seemed relevant to me. what a great job they did doing this hearing. you talked about it this morning a little bit, about how it was different from other hearings. i just will say, it's a great model for going forward. what you did not have, a bunch of congressmen making opening statements, listening to themselves talk, that consumed air time. restricting it to the two, bennie thompson and liz cheney mostly, meant you heard from those people. you didn't have to hear the grandstanding. what a mistake kevin mccarthy made by taking republicans out of the game. if you wanted to mess with the hearings, the way for republicans to do it is not by saying they won't be on the committee, but to be there last night and be able to gum up the
works. instead, by taking themselves out of the picture, mccarthy gave the open field running to the truth which is, of course, to our benefit and not donald trump's. the new stuff, you know, last night we heard, one of the things was a fact we were unaware of, right, which is on the night, the meeting that took place at the white house with sidney powell, rudy giuliani, mike flynn, an hour before donald trump sends out the "we'll be wild" tweet, right? if you're building a case where you're trying to put pressure on merrick garland and raise the possibilities of indictments for donald trump to come, you have to prove criminal intent. i think the total picture last night with the smaller and larger details, the movements of the proud boys and the timing of it, the way that trump -- they laid out the case trump knew he hadn't won the election, then took methodical steps to see if
what would happen on the day would happen. we understand it was an attempted coup, but the degree of premeditation, how much everything that happened that day seems to be what donald trump wanted to happen that day. you know, hearing that evidence that cheney laid out, saying that, you know, donald trump did not call the doj, did not call the attorney general, did not call the national guard, all of that, you know, while mike pence's life was on the line, trump in that moment was effectively not commander in chief anymore, right? i think that's the other picture you get from last night, which was not as clear before, at least to me. the degree he abdicated and basically was insurrectionist-in-chief. mike pence was basically commander-in-chief that day. all of that to me was new. the clarity, the new details, the way which it was laid out, gives you a picture of just how diabolical trump was, how
premedicated everything that day was, how much any last lingering trace of the notion that this was a thing that got out of hand. >> right. >> even the notion, i think, that it got out of hand and trump loved it, which is what a lot of people thought. no, it didn't get out of hand. this was the plan. this is what trump wanted to see happen, and he loved it. the string of that evidence that got laid out last night, just the most devastating portrait ever of the president's culpability in this. i think it puts more pressure on merrick garland and the justice department to pursue at least one, possibly two criminal charges. >> it was a plot, an attempted coup. as it began to take place, the president made a willful decision not to defend the country, not to defend the capitol. this meeting ahead of time gets to the premedication. congresswoman cheney confirmed a previously reported meeting between then president trump, michael flynn, sidney powell, rudy giuliani, and others, almost three weeks before
january 6th. >> they stayed late into the evening. we know that the group discussed a number of dramatic steps, including having the military seize voting machines and potentially rerun elections. you will also hear that president trump met with that group alone for a period of time before white house lawyers and other staff discovered the group was there and rushed to intervene. a little more than an hour after ms. powell, mr. giuliani, general flynn, and the others finally left the white house, president trump sent the tweet on the screen now, telling people to come to washington on january 6th. be there, he instructed them. we'll be wild. as you will see, this was a pivotal moment. this tweet initiated a chain of events. the tweet led to the planning for what occurred on january 6th, incluing by the proud boys who ultimately led the invasion
of the capitol and the violence on that day. >> john, this is a gathering of the crack pot crew of the my pillow posse, sidney powell, giuliani, all them. they know at this point, because we heard last night from attorney general barr and other members, that there is no fraud in the election. they know that as a matter of fact. they've been told it time and again. they talk about using the military to seize voting machines and change the outcome. >> an hour later, something trump never talked about, nobody knew at january 6th at the moment, it was not a thing, other than it was a they think that was out there on the chat boards, maybe there would be a gathering. we knew what january 6th was, it was going to be the day the electoral college was certified. trump introduces this into the bloodstream. next morning, bannon is on his podcast, talking it up. those crack pots, the inside crack pots, the powell, giuliani, mike flynn, there's
another group of crack pot on the outside. steve bannon is spending time with rudy giuliani at that time. it's the willard mafia. all the people at the willard. you have bannon. there's roger stone with connections to the proud boys and oath keepers. they're having another set of conversations. trump doesn't let nose guys in the white house, but the people in the white house are talking to that group outside of the white house. i think one of the things we're going to see, that we should -- these are all promises, in a way, cheney made last night about what we're going to see over the subsequent hearings, is even more connecting of the dots between those groups. yesterday, afterwards, after the hearing last night, bennie thompson said there would be evidence of discussions between proud boys and oath keepers and trump's circle. they've laid out the road map of where they are going. if they fill the road map in
with firsthand testimony that flushes out some of these points, it's just going to get worse and worse for anybody who wishes to deny the truth about what happened that day and, again, i would say, will make a stronger public case. if pressure is required on the justice department to bring charges against donald trump, i think it'll mount to it over the course of this month. >> let's bring in congressional investigations reporter for the "washington post," jackie alemany. what stood out last night? >> mika, this is probably a bit of an unpopular opinion, but i think it's the times when lawmakers weren't speaking that were most powerful, sitting in the canon caucus room last night. when caroline edwards recalled in very graphic detail, her voice quivering at times, but otherwise emotionless, watching officer brian sicknick turn pale after he was attacked by rioters on the west front of the capitol steps, essentially almost dying before her eyes. he passed away the next day.
talking about the carnage and the way people were throwing up, the blood she was slipping in around her. this was after having sustained a traumatic brain injury she came to from the bike racks. then moved over to help her colleagues. it was chilling. the room was silent. there were tears flowing. watching serena levingood, the wife of the police officer who committed suicide days after the attack, after having served for our country. it was tough watching her. i'm sure it was if it was hard for us, i can't imagine what it was like for them sitting in the room and reliving these moments. i think that the moments when we were watching this video montage of never-seen-before footage of rioters attacking the capitol, it was a reminder for the american public why they should tune in. something bennie thompson said,
i think, for the broader public's purpose, you know, forget the legal jargon, seditious conspiracy, obstruction of an official proceeding, and let's put it in its plainest terms. this was a coup. the president attempted to overthrow the will of the people. that video footage that we saw last night and that gripping testimony all helped sort of sketch that out and support the thesis that this committee is trying to push forward right now. >> so richard haass, it is surreal for you and me. we grew up in a time where, in the '60s and '70s, i was a little bit younger than you were. but in the '60s and '70s, institutions were being attacked by the far left. there was a goal to tear down so many institutions by the far left. that at least was the claim of
conservatism and why there was the reagan esque counter-revolution, of sorts. now, we live in a time where it was the far right that's following steve bannon's advice from the very beginning. said he is a lennonist who wants to tear down institutions. he said it again. this is what the trump right is dedicated to, to beat the hell out of cops, to storm the capitol, to shred the constitution, to attack the fbi, to claim it was a false flag fbi operation, and constantly attack and tear down the fbi during trump's term because they might actually hold him accountable. to tear down judges, to attack judges, to attack media. i could keep going on and on. to say helicopters from the military that were used in afghanistan, as fox news says, are coming to attack americans. the fbi is coming to kick down
the doors and interrogate and arrest anybody who voted for donald trump. this is what the right has become. this is what conservatism has become. this is what the republican party is defending. this is what donald trump supporters continue to defend. it's only been a half century, but, my god, talk about political vertigo. it is extraordinary. >> look, joe, you're exactly right. one of the republic reasons -- the things that make conservatives conservative is they believe in institutions. go back to edmond burk and other political philosophers, they believe people are prone to mistakes and we need institutions. it's the reason the founders believed in checks and balances when they concocted this constitutional system of ours. what we see today is that
republicans have ceased to be conservatives, and modern day republicanism has become radicalism. it's become populist. you're putting people and policies, what have you, preferences ahead of democracy, ahead of the country, ahead of the constitution, ahead of our institutions. that, to me, is obviously an unbelievably dangerous departure. we no longer have -- we have, if you will, a progressive liberal party. we no longer have a conservative party. we have what's become a radical movement, a radical network in and out of the official party. that's something we've really never had to deal with in our history. the question is, can we fete through it? can we basically get to a point where liz cheney republicanism, which is extremely conservative in her policies, whether we can get back to the point that regains control of the republican party? i don't know the answer to what. obviously, we have an enormous
stake in it. it gets a little to the point of these hearings, and i might slightly disagree with john and others. i'm not so sure what we heard is an airtight legal case. i actually have doubts about it. i actually think the most important thing here is educational. we don't teach civics very much in schools anymore. you can graduate from virtually any college in america never having read the federalist papers or the constitution or being familiar with the basics of american political history. the chance for these hearings, it seems to me, is to become a classroom. to educate americans about why their democracy is so valuable, why it is so precious, but also why it's vulnerable and what it will take to keep it. what lessons do we learn? more important to me than anything merrick garland takes away from this is the american people get a civics lesson in how we came to close to undermining this political system of ours. >> richard, once again, gets me thinking about quotes of
conservatism from the past. jonathan lemire, russell kirk in the conservative mind, introduction to the 7th edition, he says, "to general principles in politics, it's conseconserva. it's established from fanatic idealogical dogma the conservative subscribes. these are principles arrived at by convention and compromise. for the most part, tested by long experience. these general principles must be applied variously and with great prudence. humankind circumstance siring differing from land to land or age to age." he talks time and time again about the fact that it is custom, convention, and it is constitution that the conservative holds on to and is guided by. not dogma, not ideology.
this is so far from russell kirk, william buckley and edmond buck's view of conservative that, of course, it is not even conser conservatism, not even close. >> this was a mob, joe. it was a mob, a violent mob. >> by the way, jonathan, a violent mob that self-professed conservatives are still defending. go ahead. i'm sorry. >> you are right. there are very few republicans who have denounced them. we heard from liz cheney last night, adam kinzinger, too, but they are few and far between within today's republican party, which is still a trumpist party. his poll numbers may be down a little bit. his track record on endorsements may be mixed. he is still by far the most powerful voice in the republican party, and the gop are still willing to do his bidding. they did so on january 6th.
first, his dereliction of duty, how he abandoned the nation's response to the covid pandemic in the post-election days. january 6th, he did nothing to quell the violence. the video last night, which we're playing again, the stark reminders of this mob violence. the first time believed that the confederate flag made it through to the capitol. the sickening chants calling for nancy pelosi's head. the law enforcement officers who told me afterwards that they detained men who had zip ties. they were fearful they were going to execute a member of congress on livestream that night, had they been able to track them down. last night, fox news did not cover this hearing. in fact, offered counterprogramming diminishing what happened, and did not go to commercials so their viewers wouldn't be tempted to change the channel. helene cooper, this is the
bigger picture, can the hearings change any minds? can they sway some republicans who might still be looking at donald trump and say, hey, he's my guy for 2024, he's still my guy. do we think this changes any minds? >> it's so -- i don't think so. i really don't. i think that so much of this is baked into the population, the narrative for want of better word, of where people are. people today listen to what they want to hear. i think the people who we want to reach, who this hearing would attempt to reach, are those very people who are watching fox news, which is offering counter programming. i think what you bring up is really important. this is fox news' decision that is such a dereliction of
journalistic duty. our jobs as journalists is to present the world as it is, not the world as we wish it might be. for them no not carry this to -- to relegate it to where they put it, fox business, or wherever they put it, i think that's disgraceful. i think that's completely disgraceful. i don't know, changing minds? are there people out there who are on the fence about january 6th? i think in the immediate days after it, there were plenty of people who were so appalled by what happened that they perhaps started to see things in a different way. whether or not -- but even those people, i wonder if after the republicans did their wholesale flip from their come to jesus moment that they had in the immediate day after january 6th, then trump calls mccarthy back
down to florida and they all start falling back in line with him again. now, they can -- you know, they've whitewashed this entire horrible day for america. maybe i'm a little more skeptical or a little more pessimistic about whether this changes minds. i don't think that's the point. this is the facts as they are. joe was talking earlier about the truth, and that's what we're here to report as journalists. we're supposed to tell things as they are, not as people wish they are. i think we have to keep reporting it and keep playing these videos. just because so many people refuse to accept or believe that this happened doesn't mean it didn't happen. >> fox should have shown it to millions of viewers last night, but it is a cop out. if you want to know what happened on january 6th, it is easy to find out what happened.
there are people who don't want to admit it. pentagon correspondent for the "new york times," helene cooper, thanks so much. jackie alemany, last night was an opening statement in primetime to get the attention of the country. what else should we expect to see? what witnesses do you think we'll hear from? what more evidence and, perhaps, what surprises lay ahead? >> i'm going to answer your question, but i just want to riff off of helene's answer. my colleagues and i have a liz cheney profile coming out in the next few hours. while i'll talk about the political implications of the hearings already, i do think that test of whether or not the committee is ultimately going to change minds, we're going to see an answer to that very soon. august 16th, liz cheney, running against harriet hageman, the embodiment of the current republican party. we have multiple advisers, people with knowledge of
internal polling, showing she is 20, 30 points behind hageman at the moment. so i think this is an important moment for cheney. it is either the pinnacle of her career, a national platform for her aspirations for higher office, or it is really the mark of sort of a spectacular flameout, the way that trump has taken down lots of republicans who have gone after him before her, and a sign of whether or not liz cheney is really the last gasp of conservatism that richard was describing previously. as for next week though, we're going to have three hearings, monday, wednesday, thursday. thursday's hearing going to be focused on the pressure campaign on vice president mike pence, to get him to halt or delay the electoral certification. there is also going to be a focus on one of the hearings about the alternate slate of electors. those were those republicans at a state and local level who signed the phony slates and submitted them in order to defy
the will of the people. we're still waiting on details for the third hearing. i imagine it is going to be a jam-packed week. liz cheney and bennie thompson already left abreadcrumbs of ne the committee is sitting on. they're still working to confirm key pieces of information, conducting interviews with people. probably already as we speak. so it's going to be a week worth watching. >> "washington post"'s jackie alemany, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. richard haass, thank you, as well. we were going to speak to you ab your new piece for "foreign affairs" entitled "a ukraine strategy for the long haul." we will get to that. we'll do it first thing next week, that important conversation. thank you so much. still ahead on "morning joe," capitol police officer caroline edwards recalled witnessing the attack on officer brian sicknick, who died nearly
24 hours after the insurrection. we'll show you that gut-wrenching testimony straight ahead. plus, we'll be joined by two members of the house select committee. congresswoman stephanie murphy and congressman jmie raskin will both be our guests this morning. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements, which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects.
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welcome back to "morning joe." 7:38 in the morning. we've been discussing the blockbuster hearing last night, the january 6th select committee. mike barnicle, did the two-hour presentation last night do anything to dent the reputation among republicans of donald trump, who, for whatever people want to say about him, still is the most powerful figure in the party by a long shot, and we've seen kevin mccarthy and others who know still to this day how bad january 6th was, to try to whitewash it and say this
hearing is a sham and a partisan exercise and everything else. the question is, do republicans continue to follow in line with donald trump? the answer has been a clear yes for a long time. does that continue into the futuresome. >> john heilemann, you're out there in the country covering politics, have gone state by state. still up until today, the huge shadow last night lurking over this is, of course, donald trump. the fear that many republicans live with in terms of donald trump, will they be primaried by a tweet from him? has that been lessoned or damaged, do you think, by any of this events, dereliction of duty, that became so apparent last night? >> i think, mike, the a good question. look, we don't know yet. i think you're going to have to measure -- i know we've been talking about how the important thing here is telling the truth. there are a bunch of audiences for this. one is history, the doj, and then this audience because 2022 matters, 2024 matters, the
future of the democracy is on the line. this is an ongoing threat, so we have to care how many people watched last night. there's going to be data over the course of this month. when we get to the end of these hearings, we're going to know what has directly -- who directly has been affected, how big was the audience, who was watching? you'll get some sense of that. i think what matters about it is that it comes at this moment where trump's standing is a little more precarious than it has been. he had a mixed primary season. he won some. he lost some. some of the most telling things in the course of both my travels and the course of just watching the coverage in georgia, you saw so many -- georgia, in particular, and you hear it everywhere though. there was a lot of coverage of georgia we heard republicans saying, yeah, i still like donald trump but i don't care what he says about this. i'll vote for brian kemp. his endorsement doesn't matter to me. you didn't hear that from republican voters back before. if you liked donald trump, you listened to donald trump. the command and control, cult of
donald trump. it's broken a little bit in the primaries. republicans said, i like donald trump, and i'll tell you on a poll that i like him, but i don't know i want him to be the nominee. i'm not going to follow in lockstep with him on the endorsements. at the end of this month, when this evidence is building up, you know, i just -- you know, if you're a republican, even a trump devotee, and you watch jared and ivanka and barr and jason miller and all of these people who are trump fanatics, how they had kind of abandoned him around 1/6. you see trump's behavior, the nakedness of him sitting there with his vice president about to potentially be hung, and hearing him say, "maybe they should hang mike pence." not just saying that but doing it, doing what he could to make sure -- to be -- i mean, the actions are so stunning. as pence's life is on the line with his family, trump is not just saying those things.
he is not calling in the national guard. he is not doing anything he could to save mike pence. he is throwing pence to the lions that day. i think the cumulative effect of this at the end of the month could be, not that trump won't still be powerful in the republican party, but a little less powerful. a little less powerful is enough to change the calculations and dynamics in the party in a meaningful way for 2022 and 2024. >> to john heilemann's point, listing all those people you hear from, came out yesterday, reporting that betsy devos -- january 6th was the reason she resigned. it was the final straw. she was open to using the 25th amendment to remove him from office. just another -- >> obviously, somebody who is a hard core conservative, who devoted her adult life to conservative causes, especially in the area of education. i'm curious. jonathan lemire, i'll ask you, but i throw it up to the entire table. if this is the case, and i do think it is the case, again, this just adds to republican
trump fatigue. yeah, they'll say i like him, but can we have trumpism without the guy who humiliates us every day and puts us on the defensive every day, helps us lose races in georgia every two years? i'm curious if somebody like desantis decides to run, because he certainly looks like he's in a hurry. he is going to run regardless. does donald trump take that challenge up, jonathan lemire, or does a desantis chase him away? he really doesn't want to lose again, certainly not in his primary. >> first to piggy-back heilemann's point, this is a sense, though trump still popular in republican party, the loudest voice in the republican party, there is a growing sentiment in the gop they're tired about talking about 2020. they think their environment this fall is really strong, they believe, to capture at least one, if not both houses of
congress. they think they're potentially well-set up in '24, as well, at least for the moment with president biden's poll numbers low. they feel the backward looking 2020 focus from trump only hurts them. it hurts their case going forward. as far as desantis, you're right, all signals out of tallahassee is he is going to run regardless, even if trump jumps in. that's contributing to what we talked about earlier this week, signals out of trump camp that he may announce his candidacy sooner than later because he is nervous about his grip on the republican party, because of his mixed record in the primary season, and now we may see a pretty damaging couple weeks here because of the january 6th committee. whether or not a desantis candidacy deters trump from running, people around trump say, no, it's not the case. he will indeed still take that on. he still thinks he is the biggest and most powerful republican in the party. what he is still counting on, though, is most republicans to bow out if he were to announce
his candidacy. joe said, let's toss it around the table. mike barnicle, do we think donald trump, is there any sense from people you know, republicans you talk to, that he's still not the overwhelming favorite, no matter what anyone else does? >> he is going to run. i think he'll remain the overwhelming favorite. he is who he is. >> i certainly think desantis would be a provocation to trump to run, rather than a deterrent. >> agreed. >> joe, you know, the thing -- i hate saying lemire had a good point, but he had -- >> it happens every so often. >> i want to pause. i hate it, but i will note it because i'm a man of fairness and goodwill. the thing i think makes a lot of republicans crazy is this point about trump, his grievances have always driven him. it's always been about grievance. white grievance. populist grievance. trump's personal grievances. all those are now backward looking. there is no politician -- joe,
you know this. you don't win elections talking about the last election. trump cannot stop talking about the last election. >> never. >> he's pathological about talking about it. >> obsessive. >> if you're a republican right now, you think joe biden is a crappy president and beatable. you look at joe biden's numbers. you talk to republicans, what do they say out in the country? joe biden is terrible. republicans in politics think biden can be beaten. they think harris is no good. they think the party is at a low ebb if the republicans talk about stuff that's today and tomorrow, they think they can win. every time they try to do it and donald trump gets in the conversation, it is talking about 2020 again. that's just -- it's not just they're tired of trump being embarrassing, they're just -- they don't think their best days are behind them anymore. they think they can win in the future. a leader that's just talking about yesterday all the time is not something that very many people like in any policepoliti party.
>> they don't care. i learned it early on, i didn't have much of a biography. when i started running, i was 29. i ran against a lot of people with a biography. my biography didn't matter to anymore. my lack of biography didn't matter. the only thing that mattered was what was the vision? where do you want to take this country in the future? that's the only thing people care about. how are you going to impact my life? it's not about grievances. this isn't a war in the balkans. this is an election in the united states of america. you're right, he takes them back. mika, by taking them back time and time and time again, he just exhausts republican voters. >> i think the party is going to move toward desantis. i think -- >> i think they already are, yeah. >> there is a move even with fox news and desantis in florida in the works. that's just my gut. john heilemann, thank you very much. >> thanks, guys. one more moment from the hearing to show you. this is u.s. capitol police officer caroline edwards
testifying about the battle the officers waged against the january 6th rioters and her attempts to hold the line alongside officer brian sicknick. >> we were just as the best we could, we were just, you know, grappling over bike racks and trying to hold them as quick as possible. all of a sudden, i see movement to the left of me. and i turned, and it was officer sicknick with his head in his hands. he was ghostly pale. which i figured at that point that he had been sprayed, and i was concerned. my, you know, cop alarm bells went off because if you get sprayed with pepper spray,
you're going to turn red. he turned just about as pale as this sheet of paper. and so i looked back to see what had hit him, what had happened, and that's when i got sprayed in the eyes, as well. >> officer brian sicknick collapsed the evening of the attack and was transported to a local hospital. he died nearly 24 hours later, after suffering two strokes. officer sicknick's long-time partner, sandra garza, sat behind officer edwards during the testimony. along with police officer harry dunn and the widow of u.s. capitol police officer howard levingood. we'll be right back.
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there's nothing in this dad, in this guy that says being for gun safety means we're coming after your guns or hate the second amendment. that's always been a load of b.s. we have to work together. let's send a message to washington, d.c., and if we don't the next kid could be yours. >> this is because of you, fred, even though i disagree with some of the measures you're advocating, this is a moment and you so profoundly pushing this -- this concept of dads for gun safety, i'd be honored to be a part of that in a -- in a gesture of real bipartisanship. >> last year on "morning joe" former republican congressman joe walsh took a bold, bipartisan step and agreed to help anti-gun violence activist fred guttenberg with his dads for guns safety national campaign. the move highlighted that it is possible for gun owners and gun
safety advocates to come together to demand reforms in hopes of improving kids' safety in schools and throughout the country, and back with us again is fred guttenberg. his 14-year-old daughter jamie was murdered in the halls of marjorie stoneman douglas high school in the 2018 mass shooting in parkland, florida, and former congressman joe walsh of illinois. he is no longer affiliated with the republican party. they will be marching together tomorrow in a washington, d.c., rally against gun violence and they join us right now. >> so, fred, columbine, sandy hook, parkland and then texas again, more kids shot up. more kids killed. the same excuses. the same b.s.
where do we go from here? >> so i've been in d.c. all week. i was there wednesday night when the votes in the house were being counted. i was there for many of the hearings. where do we go? we broke through one wall this week, but we have a long ways to go. we have to get through the senate, and i'll say this because i watched everything last night, too, and i can't stop thinking about what if that looked more like the attack on michigan and some of those folks had guns? the events are connected and those who spent this week fighting what i do in washington, d.c., calling me a gun grabber, saying we're against the second amendment. they're the same ones who likely were seeking pardons that liz cheney talked about last night. the reality of gun violence and the attack on democracy are
connected, and we must -- we must demand either the senate follow up on what the house has done or we go to november and we make this the voting issue of our time, and i do believe the american people understand what's at stake and they will vote for gun safety candidates and in doing so they will also be defending democracy. >> joe walsh, we did see that bill make it through the house of representatives. it's widely believed not to go anywhere in the senate because it would need 60 votes to pass, but you are a gun owner yourself. you have come to the table in this conversation for fred and i know fred is grateful for that, and it's great to have these two competing points of view together trying to fight the problem making our country right now. what can you accept as someone who respects second amendment rights and also understands there needs to be some change
here. >> look, willie, i'm a gun ownr and i'm someone if fred called a crazy gun nut a few years ago, if fred and i can sit down and talk anybody can. willie, i don't think anything happens until responsible gun owners like me stand up, get off our ass and pressure senate republicans to do something. i am so pissed off that folks like fred have been out there tirelessly for the last few years doing this all on their own. this is time for responsible gun owners to stand up and say enough and willie, i think the spot to do it in is before anybody buys a gun. universal background checks should be automatic. red-flag laws should be automatic. this is where i think the two sides can come together. >> what about raising the gun age. i know you've been hesitant on that, not all gun, but the
semi-automatic rifle ar-15 most recently in uvalde and buffalo where young men have gone in in the uvalde shooter a couple of days after his birthday and been able to buy those weapons and to use them to kill children in that case. are you open to the idea of raising that age from 18 to 21? >> because i've been listening, willie, to people like fred and david hogg i'm open to putting that on the table. i'm less concerned about the age 18 to 21, and i'm much more concerned about the training. i mean, uvalde, an 18-year-old walked into a gun dealer, bought a gun without any training. i'd have the same problem, willie, if a 21-year-old had done that, but i'm open to discuss it. >> that, fred, it's jonathan lemire, senator murphy from connecticut who is the loudest voice on the democratic side
said he does believe something will get done and it will be incremental, red-flag laws and not significantly so, back ground checks and are you of the belief that any progress is good progress, we'll take what we should happen now? what should happen next. >> i love senator murphy and i love his optimism, and i know he's working 24/7 right now and yet you can't find ten republicans to do this, and i don't think he will. i think this party is hell-bent on thwarting the will of what the majority of america wants for whatever reason. when i -- and i'll give you two reasons why i'm less optimistic than he is. one, the leader, mitch mcconnell still won't say the word gun, and two, governor rick scott who came to jamie's funeral, who i spoke with on a really regular
basis to pass legislation in florida and, in fact, he led the way. he led the way as governor in florida to do really important things to raise the age of 21, to pass red-flag laws and to do a waiting period. governor rick scott doesn't exist anymore and senator rick scott is running away from the governor rick scott. senator rick scott wants nothing to do with this. that to me is a tell tale sign that this is going to be an issue that we, americans, will have to vote on. the truth is since jamie was killed we've moved this country further into a gun safety majority. we have a president who will sign legislation, a house who just passed legislation and a senate who is 50% there. america, if you value life, if you value your children, children who can vote, if you value your parents, make sure you figure out right now how
you're going to vote and who the gun safety candidates are and vote for them because at this moment it's really looking challenging to get this through the senate. >> fred guttenberg and joe walsh, thank you both very much for coming on this morning and for what you're doing. it is the top of the hour, the third hour of "morning joe" and we begin this hour with more of last night's primetime hearing from the committee investigating the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. >> on this point there is no room for debate. those who invaded our capitol and battled law enforcement for hours were motivated by what president trump had told them that the election was stolen and that he was the rightful president. president trump summoned the mob, assembled the mob and lit the flame of this attack. >> january 6th committee vice chair liz cheney laying out the
case against donald trump as the first hearing into the attack on the capitol got under way. it offered never-before-seen video and new evidence that investigators say shows donald trump and his advisers knew he lost the election fair and square and yet still sought to overturn the will of the american people. committee vice chair liz cheney also presented evidence of how trump's actions led to the planning of what happened that day, that the white house knew in the days leading up to the attack that things could turn violent and that as the attack was under way, it was vice president mike pence and not donald trump, who did anything to stop it. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander has more. >> in a rare prime time hearing,
never-before-seen videos that were riveting and revolting. the images getting an emotional reaction from capitol police and the widow of an officer who took his life after the attack. the bipartisan committee investigating the january 6th attack methodically detailing what it described as a sprawling, multi-step conspiracy led by former president trump to overturn the 2020 election. >> january 6th was the culmination of an attempted coup. the presentation highlighting new video evidence of the clashes on the capitol steps, the top house republican kevin mccarthy staff fleeing through safety and of the rioters' fury. >> i'll lay my life down if it takes. >> testifying in person, the first capitol police officer injured that day, caroline edwards. she suffered a brain injury when the mob pushed her into a concrete staircase. >> there were officers on the ground, you know, they were
bleeding, they were throwing up. i saw friends with bloods all over their faces. i was slipping in people's blood. >> the committee using the words of top trump administrations and allies from their videotaped depositions to undercut the former president's false claims that the election was stolen. former attorney general william barr sharing in explicit language what he told mr. trump. >> i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying the election of stolen and putting out this stuff which i told the president was bull [ bleep ]. >> that resonating with ivanka trump. it affected my perspective. i respect attorney general barr, so i accepted what he was saying. >> the committee also showing a senior campaign aide saying mr. trump was told in blunt terms that he had lost the election. the former president's son-in-law jared kushner dismissing a threat by the white house counsel to resign. >> i kind of took it up to just be whining, to be honest with
you. >> among the hearing's most jarring refer lagzs, liz cheney describing former president trump's anger yelling at advisers who urged him to do more to call off the riot. >> aware of the rioters' chants to hang mike pence the president responded with this sentiment, quote, maybe our supporters have the right idea. mike pence, quote, deserves it. >> and punctuating the night this montage of rioters explaining why they stormed the capitol. >> i did believe, you know, that the election was being stolen, and trump asked us to come. >> nbc's peter alexander reporting for us there. let's bring in democratic congressman jamie raskin and he's a member of the select committee investigating the january 6th attack. congressman, thanks for being with us this morning. that two-hour presentation last night offered a very clear picture, the are ginning of it, anyway, on what happened on january 6th and what led up to it. there's been so much fog and
misinformation on those events particularly on one side of the aisle over the last year and a half. what stood out to you as you began to look to this information and to a lot of us it was that donald trump and the white house knew that it was all a lie. that there was fraud in the election, they knew they lost and yet they continued and they persisted with this effort to overturn the results and we were stunned to see and to hear last night the effect to which the former president did on january 6th to defend the united states capitol and to defend the country. what jumped out to you? >> well, we dispelled the thick fog of propaganda that trump and his supporters continue to emit about what happened. it was clear donald trump was hell-bent on staying in office regardless of what the american people had to say about it. he promoted the big lie and propagandized the big lie and he
engaged in this multi-step conspiracy to try to destroy joe biden's lawful majority in electoral college culminating on january 6th where they unleashed terrible mob violence against our police officers, and i was thinking last night the thing that jumped out as me as i was being looking at this is you have a party that claims to be on the side of law enforcement and the police and are turning a total blind eye to the most vicious, massive assault on police officers any of us has ever seen in our lifetime by a domestic mob and they're trying to sweep it under the rug as kevin mccarthy said he wouldn't do, but that's precisely when he wouldn't do and they're trying to cover up the whole thing. the public is starting to get the picture of three rings of sedition that took place on january 6th. one ring was this crowd that turned into a violent mob that set upon the police. a middle ring of insurrection of domestic violent extremist
groups like the proud boy, the oath keepers, the qanon networks and the militia groups which smashed our windows, attacked our police and led the occupation of the capitol, driving members of congress out of the capitol and shutting down the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in american history and finally, the inner realm of the coup, those that donald trump had convinced to spread the lie around the country with and then were willing to do anything in order to keep him in office and we'll tell the specifics of that story. what you've seen so far, as shocking as it is is just a fraction of the evidence that we've assembled. >> and there will be more hearings, we know, even coming up this next week. three of them. one of the other elements of the story which is so critical and again to go to the disinformation that's been spread out there that this was somehow spontaneous, that it was a rally at the ellipse, people marched peacefully to the
capitol and somehow it got out of hand. what you and the committee laid out last night, no. this was a plot and an attempted coup that involved the president of the united states and the proud boys and the oath keepers who went to washington with a very specific plan. >> well, stewart rhodes, leader of the oath keepers said we don't get out of this without civil war and we have lots of statements and email messages, tweets and so on of insurrectionists clearly planning on violence in order to make this happen, and i was listening to mr. guttenberg to speak before. there were thousands of arms brought to washington and they'd been left in cars, hotels and motels until the right moment struck, and so we are very lucky about a number of things that happened, but one of them was that they did not decide to unleash this arsenal against us. >> congressman, we've seen just
a portion of the evidence that has been gathered in this first of several hearings that will be held. you, i assume, have seen all of the evidence that has been gathered that you just alluded to. you're a lawyer. so let me ask you, as a personal question, as a lawyer, do you think you've seen enough where you can go and get changes leveled against donald trump based upon his intent to overthrow a free election? >> well, you don't have to trust me, you can actually trust a sitting judge, judge carter, the united states district court judge in california who is sitting on the john eastman litigation who has been so astonished by what he's seen, that he has said repeatedly now that it is likely that donald trump engaged in federal criminal offenses, and so we
have put in our pleadings that there was evidence of conspiracy to block and impede a federal proceeding and there was a conspiracy to defraud the people of the united states and the u.s. government out of this free and fair election. so i think that's the least that can be said. the one minor correction is i've not seen all of the evidence because we have hundreds of thousands of pages of documents and more than a thousand witnesses and unfortunately, i wasn't there for all of them. it was impossible for us, but i've seen a lot of it, and i know the basic, core elements of this offense. there were not hundreds, but thousands of crimes committed along the way, but all of it as our chair said last night was for the purpose of stating a coup against the people's election and if we're going to allow a sitting president to dishonor the results of the election then we no longer are a constitutional democracy.
>> a member of the select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol, congressman jamie raskin, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. all right. we want to bring in chuck rosenberg into the conversation. he's an msnbc contributor and senior white house attorney and former fbi official and we want to play the moment that we saw in peter alexander's report when vice chair liz cheney played a clip from former white house senior adviser jared kushner's deposition. take a look. >> some in the white house took responsible steps to try to prevent january 6th. others egged the president on. others who could have acted, refused to do so. in this case, the white house counsel was so concerned about potentially lawless activity that he threatened to resign multiple times. that is exceedingly rare and exceedingly serious. it requires immediate attention
especially when the entire team threatens to resign. however, in the trump white house it was not exceedingly rare, and it was not treated seriously. this is a clip of jared kushner addressing multiple threats by white house counsel pat cipollone and his team of lawyers to resign in the weeks before january 6th. >> jared, are you aware of instances where pat cipollone threatened to resign? >> i kind of -- like i said, my interest at that time was on trying to get as many pardons done, and i know that he was always -- him and the team were always saying we're going to resign and we won't be here if this happens or that happens and i kind of took it up to be whining, to be honest with you. >> whining. there is a reason why people
serving in our government take an oath to the constitution. democracy is fragile. people in positions of public trust are duty bound to defend it, to defend it when action is required. in our country, we don't swear an oath to an individual or a political party. we take our oath to defend the united states' constitution, and that oath must mean something. tonight, i say this to my republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible. there will come a day when donald trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain. >> chuck, what's your reaction to not just what jared kushner had to say, but your overall take on the evidence, legal take on the evidence presented so far? >> sure, mika. well, first, as to mr. kushner right at the intersection of remarkably arrogant and remarkably dumb lies his comment. i mean, when a white house counsel, principled, thoughtful, white house counsel pat
cipollone sees five-alarm fires all around him, red flags and threatens to resign, that ain't whining and anybody with an ounce of common sense and an ounce of respect for the office of the presidency would understand that, and so it is a remarkably dumb and arrogant comment to characterize that as whining. you ought to listen if your white house counsel tells you that you're in trouble. in terms of the evidence, so i thought the presentation last night was very well done. they have lots of disparate parts and it's a multi-layered, multi-faceted presentation that will play out over the next several hearings, but there are really two types of evidence, at least that i thought about last night, stuff that's compelling, emotional like the testimony of officer caroline edwards, i thought she was honorable, valiant and dignified and everything that's good about law enforcement, and then there's stuff that's probative.
by probative, i mean, mika, stuff that tends to prove the central thesis. the central thesis here, i submit is that president trump knowingly and intentionally engaged in a plot and directed a conspiracy to undermine the electoral vote count to impede congress and to unlawfully hold on to power and so some of the evidence was probative of that and some of the evidence was simply compelling and emotional. congresswoman cheney did a wonderful opening statement and it's sort of like one you see in a criminal case in a federal court. she promised what they were going to adduce, and promised what they will do over the course of the hearings and now they have to do just that, they have to prove it. >> reminds me what a lawyer i worked for right out of law
school. you tell them what you tell them and then you told them what you told them it seems that they accomplished the first of those tasks. earlier this morning we had george conway on who said there were certain people at the justice department that should take note of what they heard last night because it certainly does sound like they're building a prima facie case against donald trump himself. what's your reaction to that? >> joe, i have a couple of reactions to that, and one, i'm sure people are paying attention at the justice department. two, the justice department has the ability and much more so than congress to investigate crimes. they have grand jury subpoenas, they have the fbi and a whole bunch of investigative resources that congress simply doesn't have. congress has done a great job, don't get me wrong, and it's not like the department of justice had been unable to investigate this without congress, and then
i think there's a third, final and difficult question which is the difference between could the department of justice charge president trump and should the department of justice charge president trump, and i'll give you an old analogy. after nixon left office ford pardoned him, as you well know and ford was excoriated for doing that by editorialists around the country and member business of the senate and the house. ted kennedy called it -- i don't remember the exact quote, but a dark day and an awful thing that he had done. ted kennedy gave president gerald ford, long gone from office the profiles encouraged award for having made that very decision to pardon nixon because he understood that as a country, we needed to put that chapter behind us and so that's the difference, i think, joe, between could and should. it's a really, really hard call for the department of justice to make. >> those calls may get louder as
we move along. remember, that was just the first night and this was just the introduction as we learn more about the president's role in this. expect those calls to become a little bit louder. i want to ask you, chuck, something else that was revealed last night, several members of congress, including scott perry allegedly reached out to the trump white house seeking pardons for their role in a term. ing to overturn the election. >> representative scott perry who was also involved in trying to get clark appointed as attorney general has refused to testify here. as you will see, representative perry contacted the white house in the weeks after january 6th to seek a presidential pardon. multiple other republican congressmen also sought presidential pardons for their roles in attempting to overturn the 2020 election. >> vice chair cheney said congressman perry helped to introduce then-president trump to a justice department attorney
who he said would help push the election fraud conspiracy theory. a spokesman for congressman perry called it a ludicrous and soulless lie. it's either true or it's not, it will be an email and we'll have evidence of whether or not that happened, chuck and we'll see that in the days to come. what does that tell you if in fact, congressman perry and others after january 6th said oops, we better look for a pardon over what we did here. i was struck about perry and multiple other congressmen, members of congress as cheney said, sought pardons. willie, have you ever sought a pardon? have you ever thought you needed one? i sure have never sought a pardon and never thought i needed one. it may be just that they feared prosecution as opposed to having feared that they broke the law and were going to face prosecution. i'll give them that, but that's a remarkable thing to hear that
multiple congressmen sought pardons at the end of the administration. there's only one reason to seek a pardon and that is because you believe you've broken the law and you fear prosecution. we'll see. you're quite right, willie. the truth will be adduced at some other hearing. they promised they would do that. when you make a promise to the jury, in this case, an audience, you need to fulfill that promise and i will be listening for that and that's deeply concerning and it tells you, too, that criminal liability, criminal conduct, criminal culpability goes deeper, perhaps, than we might have imagined at first. chuck rosenberg, thank you so much for coming on this morning with your analysis. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll talk to another member of the house select committee stephanie murphy, plus, we'll be joined by "the new york times" peter baker who said, quote in the entire 246-year history of
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saw friends with blood all over their faces. i was slipping in people's blood. you know, i was catching people as they fell, you know, i was -- it was carnage. it was chaos. i can't -- i can't even describe what i saw. never in my wildest dreams did i think that as a police officer, as a law enforcement officer i would find myself in the middle of a battle, you know? i'm trained to detain, you know, a couple of subjects and handle -- handle a crowd, but i'm not combat trained, and that day it was just hours of hand to hand combat, hours of dealing
with things that were way beyond any -- any law enforcement has ever trained for, and i just remember -- i just remember that moment of stepping behind the line and just seeing the absolute war zone that the west had become. >> jesus told his disciples and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. it was the truth put before the american people in gripping testimony that was lay bare last night before the january 6th committee. it was the truth about donald trump stripped to its ugliest core as americans saw graphic images that forever demolished trump's fantasy of his rioters as quote, peaceful people, great people. the truth, you heard officer edwards' testimony last night
painfully recalling her fellow cops. they were bleeding and throwing up. i was slipping in people's blood. it was carnage and chaos. i can't even describe what i saw. the truth, that unlike any president who has ever served before him in this great republic, donald trump refused to call off the attacks on america's capitol, and even yelled to his staff that the violent mob was doing exactly what they should be doing. trump would not stop the riots. the truth, when donald trump learned the mob's threats to hang his own vice president trump told his staff, quote, maybe our supporters have the right idea. he deserves it. and knowing mike pence and his family were in danger and on the move to try to find a secure location in the capitol the
defeated president decided to pour more gasoline on the fire and put the pence family life in danger and the truth, trump knew the election wasn't stolen. his attorney general called it bullshit. his daughter sided with the attorney general and his staff said there was no there there and there never was, trump knew it. giuliani knew it. fox news knew it and republicans who sold their soul to a failed game show host also knew it from the start. they still do. the truth can set them free. jesus is right. it can set them free from the lies, from the conspiracy theories, from the un-american attacks, from the seditious actions who define who donald trump is. they have to actually open their eyes and watch the evidence, listen to the testimony and turn away from the cyclone of lies
that have enveloped them and their political lives since that dreadful day when they chose cowardice over courage and party over patriotism. those who continue to betray their country by betraying that country and repeating donald trump's lies, well, there's another bible verse from the gospel of john, and it's this, this is the verdict. light and truth has come into the world, but these people love darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. >> i am not allowed to say what's going to happen today because everyone's just going to have to watch for themselves. >> we're going to get riot warning. >> we have a breach of the capitol! breach of the capitol!
the upper level! >> mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and the constitution giving space a chance to certify and correct a set of facts and not the inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. >> bring out pence! bring out pence! bring out pence! >> hang mike pence! hang mike pence! hang mike pence! hang mike pence! >> the house members are walking now through the tunnel. >> nancy!
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whoa. aware of the rioters' chants to hang mike pence the president responded with the sentiment, quote, maybe our supporters have the right idea. mike pence, quote, deserves it. >> deserves it, talking about that infamous line "hang mining pence." vice chair liz cheney revealing that piece of information that former president trump reacted to the threat of violence against his vice president like pence saying maybe he deserves it. meanwhile, in another piece of evidence shown, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley testified it was vice president pence, not president trump, who ordered national guard troops to respond to the attack on the capitol. >> two or three calls with vice president pence. he was very animated and he was
very explicit, very direct, unambiguous. there was no question about that, and he was -- and i can get you the exact quotes, i guess, from some of our records somewhere, but he was very animated, very direct, very firm and to secretary miller. get the military out there, get the guard down here, put down this situation, et cetera. >> by contrast, here is general milley's description of his conversation with president trump's chief of staff mark meadows on january 6th. >> he said we have to kill the narrative that the vice president is making all the decisions. we need to establish the narrative that, you know, that the president is still in charge
and that things are stable. i immediately interpreted that as politics, politics, politics, a red flag for me personally, no action, but i remember distinctly. ? general milley there. the president on the council of foreign relations, richard haas, was there so much to comb through from last night's hearing, but that there from general milley and the testimony and the evidence that we're going to see that donald trump sat by as the united states capitol was you understand attack and did not pick up the phone to call the united states military, to call the national guard, to call his attorney general to effectively defend the capitol. he sat by and let it happen. >> we all like to comfort ourselves with the facts that we are a country of laws and not men and women. that's not true. what this shows is how much character counts. at the end of the day the laws only provide so much against guardrails. you saw liz cheney and what mike
pence did and general milley and you look at donald trump and those around him, the giulianis, the powells and the rest of that gang. this is a close-run thing. my biggest takeaway from last night was just how close we came and the assumption has to be going forward. we have to talk about what happened in the future and i take from this is that american democracy remains vulnerable. there's nothing about it after 240 years that's assumed, that's locked in and we need a collective effort to protect -- as the founders have warned us, there's no way to build a political system that's made from bad character and we've had an experience with awful character, and i hope we learned the lessons from them. >> i'm just curious, what you thought about the world seeing this, and we often hear people
saying the world is seeing what's happened in the united states on january 6th with donald trump, but there is an accounting here. there is truth telling here, there were members of his -- people surrounding him at the white house that were telling him he couldn't do this and there were, of course, 63 federal judges who threw every case out. do you get any comfort from that at all? >> it's a mixed bag, joe. on one hand, you have all of that and part of the answer to your question will depend on what happens down the road. will there actually be certain changes in our political system. we might not know the answer to that for several years and we'll look at what happens with electorses in 2024 or down the road how the electoral count act is ultimately changed or not, but i think a lot of foreigners
look at this and it's not seen in a vacuum and you can look at gun violence and they look at it against the opioid deaths and they look at it against the backdrop that we had tens of millions of americans who had access to vaccines, but wouldn't take them and they sake their head. this is not the america we thought we knew and we're not so sure we want to put our hands in the safety of such a society. our adversaries look at it and take heart. i think one of the reasons why vladimir putin invaded ukraine and he looked at january 6th and said i don't have to worry about this country. it is so divided against itself that they're not going to stand to me. around the world, why would anyone want to be democratic if they looked at what happened on january 6th and still what's happening and people not willing to face the truth.
there's a good news that we have a hearing like this. i thought the approach of liz cheney was so powerful just laying out the facts, but i think a lot of the world will also say does this really make a difference? have the americans learned their lessons? have they gone back to the america we thought we knew and i think it will be back. >> we'll bring a member of the january 6th committee when stephanie murphy joins us at the table. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." t ahead on "morning joe. ♪ ♪ i'm the latest hashtag challenge. and everyone on social media is trying me. i'm trending so hard that “hashtag common sense” can't keep up. this is going to get tens and tens of views. ♪ ♪ ( car crashing ) ♪ ♪ but if you don't have the right auto insurance coverage,
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first. >> the door is barricaded. there is people flooding the hall wares outside. we have no way out. >> officers still remaining on the house floor on the third floor, to use the subway, it is time to evacuate so we could secure the members on the other side. copy. >> it is up to us people now, the american people. one more time? whatever it takes, i'll lay my life down if it takes. absolutely. that is why we showed up today.
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live look at l.a. just about the top of the fourth hour of "morning joe." we've got a lot to get to this hour, including the revelations from the first hearing by the house select committee to investigate the january 6 attack on the u.s. capitol. using never before seen graphic video and unveiling new evidence that the committee presented their case for a conspiracy led by former president donald trump. we'll speak to january 6 committee member congresswoman stephanie murphy about last night. as well as what is in store for the additional hearings next week. also ahead, the latest on that highly anticipated inflation report released just moments ago. the may kpur price index shows prices jumped 8.6% compared to this time last year. which was worse than economists expected. stephanie ruhle will join us