tv The 11th Hour With Stephanie Ruhle MSNBC June 16, 2022 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT
we are a few seconds over our time here. the 11th hour stephanie ruhle starts now. starts now >> tonight, the bombshell hearing, highlighting the coordinated bully campaign after mike pence stood up to the former president. the danger that was 40 feet away and the current and continuing threat to our democracy. then, even the guy who wrote the memo for overturning the election knew it was against the law. and then asked for a pardon. plus, she insists she wants to clear the air.
so, when will ginni thomas tell the committee all she knows about the insurrection? as the 11th hour gets underway on this thursday night -- >> good evening once again, i'm stephanie ruhle. today the, january 6th committee made a powerful case about the relentless pressure donald trump and his allies put on mike pence to unlawfully overturn the 2020 election results. this afternoon, the committee presented detailed evidence revealing the intensity of that effort and the real danger pence was in on the day of the insurrection. >> mike pence, i hope you are going to stand up for the good of our constitution and for the good of our country. and if you are not, i'm going to be very disappointed in you, i will tell you right now. >> i'm telling you what, i'm hearing the pence, i'm hearing that pence just caved -- >> no -- >> i'm hearing reports that
pence caved. i'm telling you, if pence caved, we are going to bleep through the streets. >> [inaudible] >> bring him out! >> bring out pence! >> hang mike pence, hang mike pence! hang mike pence! [noise] >> hang mike pence, that's what they were chanting. today's star witnesses, two key republicans, pence's former white house counsel, greg jacob, and former federal judge, michael luttig, their testimony focused on trump's lawyer, john eastman and his scheme to defy the electoral count act and reverse joe biden's victory. trump was apparently 100% behind eastman's plan, despite being informed over and over that the plan was illegal. greg jacob went on to testify that even eastman himself admitted the plot was against the law. >> when i pressed him on the
point, i said, john, if the vice president did what you are asking him to do, we would lose 90 nothing in the supreme court, wouldn't we? and he initially started, well, i think we would lose only 7 to 2. but after some further discussion, he acknowledged, yeah, you are right, we would lose 90 nothing. >> doctor eastman admit in front of the president that his proposal would violate the electoral count act? >> mr. eastman acknowledge that that was the case, even if he knew the more politically palatable option would violate several provisions. but he thought we could do so because in his view, the electoral count act was unconstitutional. >> not a lot of cases that could go nine zip. john eastman also warned that his scheme could lead to violence. here is what one white house lawyer told the committee about his conversation with eastman. >> i said, you are going to turn around and tell 78 plus million people in this country
that this is how you are going to invalidate their votes? because you think the election was stolen? so, you are going to cause riots in the streets. and he said, words to the effect of, there has been violence in the history of our country [inaudible] protect the democracy, protect the republic. >> as for pence himself, he clearly had doubts about whether a vice president even had the power to overturn an election. >> our review of text history and, frankly, just common sense, all confirmed the vice presidents first instinct on that point. there is no justifiable basis to conclude that the vice president has that kind of authority. >> the very conservative retired republican judge luttig, he advised mike pence leading up to january 6th, in his testimony today, he left absolutely no doubt about where
he stood on eastman's plan. >> there was no basis in the constitution or laws of the united states at all for the theory espoused by mr. eastman, at all. none. i would have laid my body across the road before i would have let the vice president overturned overturn the 2020 election on the basis of that. >> and as we will hear later in the hour, judge luttig warned that the danger to our democracy is far, far from over. the scariest thing he said today. the committee also released new photos of trump on the phone, talking to pence from the oval office on the morning of january 6th. and witnesses testified that
that conversation did not go well. >> the conversation with pretty heated. >> i think, until it became somewhat louder tone, i don't think i was paying attention to it, actually. >> did you hear any part of the phone call? even if it's just the and the president was speaking from? >> i did, yes. >> all right, what did you hear? >> so, as i was dropping off the note, my memory -- i remember hearing the word wimp. called him a win. i remember he said, you are a wimp, you will be a wind. wimp is the word i remember. >> if you remember what she said [inaudible] her father world? >> the [inaudible] word. >> how would you describe the demeanor of the vice president following the call, following the call with the president? >> when he came back into the room, i would say that he was steely, determine determined. >> that same afternoon, while pence was still inside the
capitol, trump went on to send another tweet criticizing pence for not reversing the election. >> we received testimony that the president chief of staff, mark meadows, was notified of the violence at the capitol by 2 pm and likely earlier. the testimony further stab lashes that mr. meadows quickly informed the president and that he did so before the president issued his 4 pm tweet criticizing vice president pence for not having, quote, courage to do what needed to be done. >> here is what the president wrote in his 2:24 pm tweet, while the violence at the capitol was going on. and here is what the rioters thought. >> he deserves to burn with the rest of them. >> [inaudible] escalated after pants, what happened after pence -- pence didn't do what we wanted -- >> pence voted against trump. >> that's when all they started? >> yeah, that's when we marched
on the capitol. >> [inaudible] and his team were ultimately led to a secure location, where they stayed for the next four and a half hours, barely missing rioters a few feet away. >> approximately 40 feet, that's all there was. 40 feet between the vice president and the mob. >> mike pence didn't vote against trump, mike pence did his job. the committee also released previously unseen photos of pence in an underground location during the riot, including one photo of pence reading that tweet that trump wrote that day. he refused to leave the capitol despite urging from secret service. >> the vice president had said something to the effect of, tim, i know you, i trust you. but you are not the one behind the wheel. and the vice president did not want to take any chance that the world would see the vice president of the united states fleeing the united states
capitol. >> as for john eastman, well, today we learned that after everything that happened before and on january 6th, he had one request. >> dr. eastman emailed her to giuliani and request that he be included on the list of potential recipients of a presidential pardon. dr. eastman's emails stated, quote, i've decided that i should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works. dr. eastman did not receive his presidential pardon. >> with that -- and there's a lot to get to -- let's get smarter with the help of our lead off panel tonight, peter baker, chief white house correspondent for the new york times. former u.s. attorney joyce vance, who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. and tabloid bianco, politics reporter for yahoo news and the author of the mike pence biography [inaudible] and power.
peter, what was your take away today? because there was a lot? >> there was a lot. and this is the center of this whole post election january 6th conspiracy, with the committee calls it, to get the vice president, basically, to do the dirty work. in other words, to get him to overturn the election that basically all the legal scholars with the exception of john eastman say there is no basis to do it, no constitutionality, that would allow him to do it. and the pressure put on pence was enormous. remember, for three years and 11 months, mike pence had been a loyal soldier. he had done everything he could to stay on trump's good side. he was the one person, perhaps, and that administration who had never once crossed him on the bad side of a tweet, nothing like that. he managed to navigate a very tough environment. and there he came, finally, to a fork in the road he could not finesse. he could not find a way to slip past it. he had to make a choice, left or right, up or down. and he made a choice. the choice was, in his view, to abide by the constitution and
not by the orders of the president. of course, that led to the crowd chanting, hang mike pence, as we heard the other day the president of the united states, saying back in the oval office, well, maybe our supporters have the right idea. maybe pence is serves it. >> joyce, john eastman knew what he had done was wrong. that's why he picked up the phone and asked for a pardon. but when he was then asked to speak to the committee, he sang a very different tune. watch this. >> i assert my fifth amendment right, -- compelled to be witness against myself. >> did the trump legal team ask you to prepare a memorandum regarding the vice president's role in the accounting of the electoral votes in the joint section session of congress -- >> declare that the president had been reelected? >> is that statement in this memo true? >> if. >> [inaudible] president trump authorize you to discuss publicly the [inaudible] >> fifth.
>> he will not discuss the same conversations with the committee? >> fifth. >> dr. eastman pled the fifth 100 times. >> 100 times. here is the thing, he didn't need the pardon, he never got charged with anything. is he going to now, joyce? >> it's a good question, stephanie. it's hard to understand how eastman does not understand and up getting charged. he believes that he was guilty. he wanted a pardon. when he came to testify, he thought that he could only avoid incriminating himself if he asserted the fifth amendment. 100 questions and he believed that if he answered those questions truthfully it would have incriminated him, it would have made him amenable to prosecution. those are the facts that john eastman himself put on the table. we have a federal judge in california in a lawsuit where john eastman filed suit against
the committee, to try to keep his emails out of the committee's hands. and that judge to review the evidence and not the criminal context where the burden of proof is beyond a criminal reasonable doubt. but in the lesser burden, the civil setting, would only needs to be more likely than not. that federal judge evaluated the evidence and said, it's more likely than not that john eastman and the president of the united states were committing crimes together. so, for doj to look at all of this evidence, it's clear that eastman has to be part of their investigation. the smart move, the savvy move here would be for eastman to decide to be that john dean in this story, to go in and to tell the truth, the full truth, and cooperate. so far, he's shown no tendency whatsoever to do that. and he has remained staunchly on the other side of that line. and that's why i think we heard judge luttig say in part that this is a clear and present danger, an ongoing problem, not
something that ended on january 6th. >> peter, eastman requested that pardon. he wrote it in the email to rudy giuliani. but the person in the white house who is focused, who is leading the charge on pardons was jared kushner. is that not the most jared kushner job ever? it's like the quid pro quo job in any administration, we are the rich and powerful, fraudsters, money launderers, come at the end of an administration and say, how am i going to hook you, pardon me? how did jarred end up with that. >> yeah, over the four years, jarred had shown interest in criminal justice reform and had worked on getting pardons for people who did not have connections, people who had been put away for a relatively minor drug crimes. but in his final days, the big list that trump approved was -- office, didn't include all these people who had political connections, all these people who have been part of a circle in some ways, including ten kyrsten, who had been
[inaudible] facing possible charges, i think, for stalking. what you see there is jared playing consigliere, who is deserving to get these pardons, who deserves to get off the hook in these final days. one of the big fights they had was over the ban. and remember, the ban was running this war room. he had fallen out with the president but was now back basically as one of his outside allies. and that huge fight leading up all the way up to the presidency, over whether steve bannon should be getting a pardon, people like kellyanne conway said no, absolutely not. but at 9:00 that, night bannon talked with the president and the president put him on the list. it was definitely a situation where, if you knew the president, you knew people around the president, there were a lot of people who used to work for the president, who are trafficking and robbing for pardons. that's with those last few days while. about >> and of course, jarred pardoned his dad. tom, let's talk about the kind of danger that mike pence was in. we heard about how trump
attacked pence on a phone call, for not agreeing to go with the block. but as the insurrection was underway, this happened. >> did trump ever call the vice president to check on his safety? >> he did not. >> mr. jacob, how did vice president pence and mrs. spence react to that? >> with frustration. >> i, mean it's no secret. pence and trump, i mean, they were never blood brothers, they were never homeboys. but describe the relationship between these two men, then and now? >> yeah, you know, i mean, you get more evidence today that that is the -- more evidence of the phone call on january 6th, that fateful phone call, where trump calls the p-word at the end of it. and, you know, one of the couple things i want to point out that the hearings grab me in this, and this goes to the violence and the danger that pence in particular faces, and
his family here too, and greg jacob, as he testified. you know, what we are seeing here the committee put together is a chronology. and they're really putting together many different pieces of this, you know, kind of in realtime, almost, as it's happening. and you know the 2:24 pm tweet from trump sticks out to me, in particular, because it is 20 6 pm, just a few minutes later, when the mob, rioters, come within 40 feet of him. and your think a lot of that. you see a lot of this where, you know, the rioters themselves are talking about hearing the reports, that pence caved. and they are getting angry. we heard testimony to that effect today, and you know, sometimes, i think it's not even each individual. new pieces of information, and it's more the totality of information that we are getting. kind of the completeness of the story here. you know, obviously, still huge
missing pieces, but really harrowing. it's just really -- i find it hard to be stunned by anything anymore. i am still stunned by this. it's just really astounding. >> peter, over the last six years we have really seen very few people in the trump inner circle faced any consequences. and when there has been subpoenas and requests, they've laughed at them. they said, these hearings, they're gonna be hyper-partisan. we can ignore the subpoenas. but today, chairman bennie thompson suggests that now is the time for previously reluctant witnesses to step up and spell. how likely do you think that is? all the witnesses we've seen so far are republicans. >> yeah, one thing the committee is really trying to do is show the people around trump knew that this election was not stolen, knew that this claim that the president was making was not true. they understood what was going on. some of them told him. some of them didn't. some of them thought him. some of them didn't.
but basically, what is striking is how many of the people who, consider themselves loyalist to president trump, and he welcomed them into his orbit, didn't buy into this farcical fantasy that he was peddling to the american public. i think that's an important point. i think it's really -- you don't, we should leave that out. >> there's all these people are saying, we're doing the right thing. we are the ones on team normal. peter,, it that a little tough to swallow, because if any of them, jason miller, marc short, take your pick, if they really saw that trump was doing the wrong thing, they've had months and months and months to come out and share those statements, those experiences. they only spoke when they were cold by the committee and under oath. >> you're actually right about that. they didn't -- bill barr, one of the few exceptions on december 1st of 2020, he had interviewed the associated press, and said, flatly, there's no evidence of widespread fraud. and basically, stood out to the
president, publicly. most of them didn't. you're right. most of them either widely went away, or state in his orbit, or still are in his orbit, in some cases. he didn't tell the public what they knew or when they believed. they allowed, enabled the president in some way by not contradicting him in public, and leaving the idea that there may be something there, when they knew they were. >> joyce, judge luttig is a very well respected, very conservative judge. he was once considered for the supreme court. the fact that he was making this powerful case to save the american democracy, do you believe any of this is getting through, specifically to republicans, trump republicans? you're from alabama. >> this has to be the hope with judge luttig's testimony, perhaps more relevant than the fact that i'm in alabama, is the fact that in 1981, judge luttig graduated from the university of virginia law school, i am articulated there
in the following year in 1982 and uva. it's a deeply conservative and a wonderful law school. at that time, it was i think more conservative than it is today. judge luttig had this sort of story career. he had worked at the supreme court before he went to law school. he left and went to the white house. he worked in the justice department. he became the youngest federal judge in the country. and when he speaks, people in federalist society and conservative legal circles, they listen. he has a brilliant mind and a forceful way of articulating his analysis. and he is highly influential. the hope here has to be that his testimony can breakthrough to those people, the people who will be listening to him. those people will be influential, when their own communities, and the hope has to be that this is one way to reach republicans. maybe not quickly, maybe not immediately, but as word of his testimony, and his argument reaches out into communities, you know, just this one simple
legal idea, the notion that the founding fathers could not have intended that one man, the outgoing vice president, determined the outcome of our elections, that can't be what the 12th amendment means. that's a powerful idea, that could take root. >> peter baker, joyce vance, tom lobiabko, nick you for starting us off tonight. coming up, the invitation has been sent, and ginni thomas insists she wants to clear up any misconceptions. we'll ask our former advisor to the general sixth committee about where all of this could go. and later, the ominous warning from a retired republican judge. you heard it right there. the former president and his allies are still we presenting a danger to our democracy, so what are we gonna do about it? the 11th hour, just getting underway on a thursday night. thursday night so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it.
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threat we faced leading up to january 6th. and it wasn't just about one day. it was about this concerted effort that we have continued to talk about, building up to january six. individuals who have knowledge shouldn't come forward, whether that's kevin mccarthy or barry loudermilk, or ginni thomas. >> and on that note, the january 6th committee has now sent ginni thomas a ladder, asking her to come on down and talk to the panel. regarding that new reporting that she exchanged emails with john eastman, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas told the daily caller this, i can't wait to clear up misconceptions. so let's welcome, former republican congressman from virginia. it was also an adviser to the january 6th committee, and want to make a quick side note, ginni thomas, if you are watching, you're welcome to join me any night of the week. and we can clear up those misconceptions. i'm so glad you are here tonight. you are a committee insider. you have said before the text messages you've seen from mark
meadows, were so horrible, that they made to walk away from your computer. what can you tell us about her communication? >> yeah, i mean, at the beginning of that i was fortunate to be a senior technical adviser, stephanie. and you probably know this. one of the first to see the desks linked with a name. it was up to us to validate those text messages. i figured the five words that showed me the most was i hope this is true, which is at the bottom of one of the first texts when she talks about democrats, ballots, she sprinkles and a lot of the qanon conspiracy theories. and you know, reading all those 29 text messages, there seems to be a break from reality. and also, her access is what bothers me the most. it does some of the things, well, that's pretty funny, you laugh at some of these things. but it looked like the qanon conspiracy theories have infiltrated every part of the republican party, and looking at the wife of a supreme court justice saying this type of, almost deranged type of text messages, it really struck me when i went through all the text messages, how that threat
was sort of interwoven with queen all of them. you also had text messages from connie herr, who was louis gohmert's chief of staff. and it's really interesting when you see texas just like that when you have ginni thomas, the wife of clarence thomas, chief of staff of louis gohmert to mark meadows, people very close, right on the cusp of all three branches of the government involved. and that's what are called attention to the committee, and that was a while ago. so was very glad to see that they sent a letter to ginni thomas after all the things that we saw today. >> okay, but why now? to your point, we've known this for a while. it's all news, what is it about her exchange with eastman that got the committee to act. h ea stman that got >> i think it's because you also saw the 29 emails -- from the legislator she reached out to, which is a coincidence -- 29 -- now you see emails directly with eastman. i do issue is a little bit earlier that they had sent a letter to ginni thomas. but they are doing the right thing now.
i think what's important about this is, as we look at it, is that there is a pattern of an individual who has that type of access, who is close to a supreme court justice that is going to all levels of the sort of conspiracy, if you look at it. she was talking to state legislators, she was talking to congressional representatives, she's talking to the executive branch. and your imagination -- you would almost have to be willfully obtuse or deliberately obtuse to think that a supreme justice wasn't aware of some of the things that were happening. and that's why i think that ginni thomas needs to be questioned. whoever, if you look at her domino documents, emails and text messages, they're pretty damaging. -- i think we are at a time that we need to get answers on what the hell is going on here. >> how about answers on financial fraud? $250 million waste for a stop the steal defense fund, a fund that didn't even exist. how much of what the committee is revealing is an attempt to
prove financial fraud? can't just be kimberly guilfoyle who got paid 60 grand to talk for two minutes. >> i would love to make that kind of money. i think another thing we have here is that when you look at the $250 million -- i've said this before, stephanie -- that's the floor. stop the steal isn't just a conspiracy theory. it's a brand. so, you have individuals, members that are raising money on that type of hyperbole and outrage, you have the rnc, the and icrc, the nrcc, you have individuals using the stop the steal outrageous language and hyperbole to raise money. so, when you talk about $250 million, i do believe that that is the floor. i think follow the money might be the most important part of the investigation for the committee. they have a very talented team there. and when you see at the end of this, whether it's the report they get to in the hearings stephanie, i think just the amount of money that flows through this grift -- and i think it's a largest conspiratorial gift in the history of the united states -- when you see the money that flows through this grift, when you see the team's investigation and how the committee put together, i think
the country will realize that you are on the edge of a very big fraud here on the american people. when they pass around that digital collection plate, whether it's through email fundraising, whether it is too hard mailers, or digital, all of this has really been based on some of the most bizarre conspiracy theories we have ever seen before in indoors parents. again, a concern the american public. >> we are at a time but i can't let you go without asking, you know a lot more information about the evidence than we do. and i know there is more coming out in realtime. but is the best yet to come? what is coming? >> i believe so. there is so much data, stephanie. the best is yet to come. they have really set up the case for the next three hearings. and i think the american people need to be glued. i think the committee has done a wonderful job. i'm very proud of them. and you have some incredibly talented nonpartisan people on our. and i know people are going to say, well, denver, you have to say that. but the people that you have are a few essays, investigators, people not involved in politics who are trying to do the right
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that fateful day in january, in 2021, that still donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american democracy. >> conservative judge michael did luttig not mince any words in his testimony about the ongoing threat to democracy. let's discuss. with us tonight, juanita tolliver, a veteran political strategist and progressive candidates and causes. and charlie sykes is, here editor at large of the bulwark and an msnbc political analyst. juanita, did today's hearing get americans any closer to understanding, not just what happened on the sixth but what is at stake today?
>> absolutely, it did. i don't think that judge luttig or chairman thompson is exaggerating when they make those statements. it is a clear and present danger. and i think, look at the way that trump has behaved ever since january 6th. taking this on, essentially, a road show, where he is recruiting election denier candidates and endorsing them, like mastriano in pennsylvania, we are easing this election lie to work with republican trolled state legislators to pass voter suppression laws. i think that laying it out like that and emphasizing that 2022 might be the last election we recognize, because trump and republicans have committed themselves to trying this again, no matter the outcome in 2024. it's critical. and it absolutely did capture the attention of the nation and we still have a whole lot more of coverage, as your last guest emphasized. >> charlie, luttig is a hugely influential voice in conservative circles. but is that still the case that
it's the party of trump? >> well, things have changed. but it is extraordinary to hear those words coming out of somebody like michael looting. and as you emphasized, everyone you have heard from has been a republican a conservative a member of the trump administration. these calls are coming from inside the house, which makes it so much more extraordinary. look, i don't mean any disrespect. but we are hearing those words. they are not coming from an msnbc host. they are not coming from people on twitter, with her hair on fire. not coming from the dnc. this is coming from somebody that was once on a republican president shortlist to be a supreme court justice. this is somebody who was a giant in conservative legal circles. so, that has got to make a difference. i don't know whether it is going to make a difference because i don't know who is watching. but as a thought experiment, i was thinking about something you said earlier, stephanie -- what if we were learning all of this information now for the first time? would if it happened to drip
out over the past year? would if today in the last couple of days was the first time we discovered the extent of the presidents conspiracy? the extent of the attempt to overturn the election? the fake electors? the pressure on the legislators, the pressure on mike pence, the way that the president not only tried to bully mike pence but then unleashed a violent mob against him? would if this was all new to us right now? we would all be stunned. we would all be blown a way. there would be no debate about whether or not this was the closest this country came to a genuine constitutional crisis. and i wonder for how many millions of americans it is new. it is not new to us. but if you are sitting and watching television, people have to be looking at one another saying, oh my god, i heard dribs and drabs of this. but i had no idea that it played out this way. so, i think this committee has done a masterful job in
painting a picture of something that does not feel today like old news. and i say that is somebody that has read and spent a lot of time on this, over the last year and a half. it feels like it is very, very vivid. and i think there's been a lot of, oh my god, wow moments that we have seen from this committee. >> is the committee, juanita, ironically doing mitchell mcconnell's work for him? mitch mcconnell is no friend of donald trump, he wanted to get rid of him for ages. and right after the insurrection, mcconnell had very harsh words, as did lindsey graham. and then they changed their tune or at least went silent. but now that all this is coming out, is that exactly what mitch mcconnell wants? >> i mean, it's what mcconnell wanted, it's what mccarthy also wanted. those recordings said that democrats will get rid of him for us, right? now this is enough ammo for them to take care of trump. but let's be real, stephanie. the only people who can take care of trump are the republican voters who keep
supporting him. and if they turn away, that is the key. sadly, i'm not sure if this select committee hearings will have any impact on republican voters, especially republican primary voters who are casting ballots across this country in the coming weeks and months. but i do think that what can get rid of trump also's doj prosecution. imagine a federal charges are brought against trump. imagine if he is finally held accountable and has some type of penalty for this type of behavior, these harmful behavior that was a direct assault on our democracy and every person in that capitol at the moment he unleashed that crowd on them. because that is the only thing he has not seen. i think back to his first impeachment trial -- he wasn't a calve the countable that because he was not convicted. his second impeachment trial, he wasn't held accountable, he wasn't convicted. but this is an opportunity, where the department of justice can use all of this evidence from the select committee, use all of this footage, use all of this testimony, to finally prosecute him and hold him
accountable to make sure that he is not at the helm to try to do this again in 2024. >> all right. well, we are going to take a quick break, but when eta and charlie, you are sticking around. i'm gonna give you two minutes to think about. but if he isn't held accountable? what if the doj doesn't act? then what happens in this country? you can actually let it rip. now that we've seen all of this wrongdoing, if there is no punishment, than what? we will be back in two minutes. k in two minutes waxed. natural. sensitive. new dove ultimate antiperspirant. our unique water based formula and 6x more glycerin. helps restore skin to its best condition. new dove ultimate. so this is the meta portal plus. a smart video calling device that makes working from home work. a 12-megapixel lens makes sure your presentation is crystal clear. and smart camera auto pans and zooms to keep you perfectly in frame. oh, and it syncs with your calendar. plus, with zoom, microsoft teams, and webex,
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and. charlie, just before the break, juanita was saying, this is the time for the department of justice to act. what if they don't? what if america, what if the globe just saw trump, his lawyers, republicans, everything he knew he lost the election, and still, they push the big lie. he potentially incited a riot. he raised money off of it. what if nothing happens? then what? >> well, deep breath. i want to use judge luttig's phrase that that would drive a state-of-the-art american democracy. trump 2.0 would be exponentially worse than trump 1.0, because now, he knows the levels, where the levels of power are. he knows that he has to surround himself with yes men. we can debate endlessly whether or not mike pence was the hero, or the other people should have come forward earlier. but they won't be around in
trump 2.0. you mentioned that, you know, who he will populate that administration with. i'm trying to remember, i think it was david who came up with the analogy, it's like, jurassic park. but this one, the velociraptors have figured out how to open the doors. and i think that's the scary thing, that donald trump, with no restraints, with nothing to lose, understanding that he can burn it all down with the beyond the nightmare. we thought trump 1.0 is bad, nothing compared to what would come. >> earlier today, there's this alternate social media platform, trump said he wants equal time. eric swalwell put out a tweet and said, wait, come on down and talk to the committee. juanita, what role is trump talking about? because if you want to go through what happened on the sixth, his welcome to join us here tomorrow night at 11. >> literally, any network will have him on. the select committee would has would have him this morning,
and we'll talk with him for hours on and. of course, i don't believe anything will happen, or come from this, and he just says this to taunt people, because he knows he's not gonna tell you. and he knows that he's not gonna sit for hours of questioning. i mean, look how his office was trying to avoid every other subpoena, even out of new york, being fined $10,000 a day until he complied with the courts, right? he doesn't want that smoke, but i also want to extend what charlie was saying about if there is no prosecution or punishment, i think that trump after its political target will catch that political targeting cost them physical harm. i think that the authoritarian white supremacist push, i think, advanced to rile up this crowd, and get them on the hunt. it will continue to advance. i think that we should brace for rigged elections, and baseball ever comes after trump, smarter, who's more strategic, and more intentional about this
authoritarian push, because that's where the long term damage to this nation that would be irreparable harm comes from the next person. not even trump to 0.0, but the next martyr person wants these authoritarian ambitions. >> charlie, where does the big lie go from here? now that it's playing for all the world to see, we can look back at those, which was a, 137 republicans in the house, that didn't vote to certify the election. what are they say now? all the people that just won primaries, i mean, david mccormack, he was treasury undersecretary. he wouldn't even answer who won the last election. that guy knew who won, and the whole country just saw him like, while his wife raced money from every goldman sachs partner. >> first of all, donald trump's and all caps, it was a statement about equal time. that's a recognition, kind of telling us that he sees it as an effective television show,
and he sees it in terms of a television broadcasting. and he knows that mic got through. otherwise, he would not be demanding equal time. so that's kind of an admission that he thinks this is working. but your question, we kind of have a split screen. we have the big life being discredited in washington, d.c.. and you look at what's happening in the hearing, i mean, and the primary is about the country, where you have the truth tellers who are being barraged one after another. not in georgia, but in south carolina -- >> the election deniers -- >> hold on, charlie. that's before the here. hearing. >> it's deeply ingrained. and i think what you mentioned, david mccormack, between you have someone who, you know has a different path, can make different choices, and one after another what they're doing is they're falling in line. and they tell themselves they are team normal, but what they do is they enable team coup, team crazy. and i don't see that changing. and the fact is once you have internalized and normalized
this level of lying, of alternative reality, it's hard to know how you come back to it. whether or not people ever actually believe in the legitimacy of our elections again. and maybe, we've already passed that point of no return on that. i don't know. the republican party, the electorate, made it very clear where they're going on the big lie. >> charlie, doesn't matter who you voted for. if you're unwilling to say who won the last election, you ain't on team normal. juanita, charlie, thank you, we'll be right. back l be right back conquer it with mavyret. cure it. with mavyret. mavyret cures all types of hep c. in only 8 weeks. the virus multiplies daily and can damage the liver over time. mavyret stops hep c and cures it. if you've had hepatitis b, it may flare up... ...and cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you've had hep b, a liver or kidney transplant, other liver problems... ...hiv, other medical conditions... ...and all your medicines. do not take mavyret with atazanavir or rifampin.
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the last thing before we go tonight, the elevator. seven years ago today, donald trump took that fateful ride down the elevator -- escalator, excuse me -- in trump tower, and announced his campaign for president. people laughed. they thought it was a sick joke. he said the american dream was dead, he declared that he was going to build a wall and that mexico would pay for it. it was a day that he would look back on fondly over the next few years. >> it takes guts to run, it really does. and i said to my wife, you know, i'm going to do it. i will never forget, standing on the famous escalator -- and we went down that famous escalator! the famous escalator, i took a deep breath, i went, let's go. has everyone seen a famous escalator coming down? i was coming down, it looked like the academy awards. >> it's the most famous escalator right now in the world, i will say. millennia, myself -- and the place went nuts. and i made the speech, people
coming into this country, everyone said, what is he now? what is he talking about? that big, big beautiful day when everybody said, oh, he's just doing this for fun. i'm sure nobody saw this, when i came down the escalator, with melania and her white dress, i don't think anybody saw this. [inaudible] the escalator, right? >> that famous escalator ride led to two campaigns, a chaotic presidency and not one but two impeachment trials. now, here we are, seven years later, and the january 6th committee is accusing donald trump of an attempted coup. think about it and on that note, we wish you all a very good and very safe night. from all our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late tonight with us, i will see you for a very special broadcast morrow. you >> the