everything that a black woman did some really wasn't coming to dim that light, or blow that out. i wish you are someone fanning our flames. >> now, in addition to that tee and my old hairstyle, the special also includes nikole hannah-jones, congresswoman ayanna pressley, comedian robin beady and the vice president kamala harris. join me and tiffany cross for the culture is black women, sunday night at 10 pm eastern, right here on msnbc and streaming on peacock. and that's it! that is tonight's the reidout, happy juneteenth, weekend all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on all in -- >> hang mike pence, hang mike pence! >> the proud boys would have killed mike pence if given a chance. >> how close the dangerous mob got to the vice president on january the 6th thanks to the president himself. will donald trump face any criminal charges for inciting the mob?

and if so, when? >> we are not going to stop what we are doing to share the information that we have gotten so far with the department of justice. >> tonight, the latest on the back of forth between the 16 committee in the justice department -- the connection between the coup plotters and the supreme court and the alleged complicity of certain members of congress, including the senator from cancun. then, the republican governor found vacationing in europe while his state deals with historic flooding. and we will talk new mexico, where they are experiencing the rather disturbing we life on the ground consequences of the big lie. >> i still believe our elections are fraudulent, i believe that we already have enough evidence -- >> when all in starts right now. good evening from washington d.c., i'm mehdi hasan, in for chris hayes. the attempted coup that took place on january the 6th, 2021,

infected all three branches of government. tonight, we are going to talk about how members of each branch are culpable for or complicit in the insurrection and how none of them have so far been held to account. we begin tonight with the executive -- we have now seen three public hearings on the january 6th committee, revealing all sort of incriminating details about how the ex president and his allies planted and incited the coup. and that has a lot of people wondering, where's the department of justice? they are the ones with the authority to actually bring criminal charges. well, we do know that they have been in a behind the scenes fight with the 16 committee, for access to transcripts of the committees witness interviews. and today we learned that the committee could start sharing those transcripts with the doj as soon as next month. the new york times reports that negotiations between justice department officials and the house panel have intensified in recent days as the two sides wrangle over the timing and content of the material to be turned over.

that comes as doj officials, quote, are growing increasingly impatient to obtain the transcripts, which they see as an essential source of information needed to guide their own interviews with former president trump's allies. earlier this week, the doj sent this letter to the committee, renewing their request for the transcripts. they claim that the interviews are not just potentially relevant to our overall criminal investigations but are likely relevant to specific prosecutions that have already commenced. and they allege that the committee's failure to turn over the documents, quote, complicates the departments ability to investigate and prosecute those who engage in criminal conduct in relation to the january 6th attack on the capital. yesterday, chairman bennie thompson defended the decision to withhold the transcripts for now. >> we have been conducting our hearings. we have a program to get over. we have the facts and circumstances by january 6th. we will work with them. but we have a report to do.

[inaudible] we are not going to stop what we are doing to share the information that we have gotten so far with the department of justice. we have to do our work. >> that lines up with the reported time oh timing that the handover could take place as soon as july. but the committee have other concerns as well. the times reports that they are still interviewing witnesses and hope that the high profile hearings will prompt more to come forward, and they are concerned that some people might be reluctant to testify if they know their statements will be quickly shared with prosecutors. there are also logistical challenges. quote, the committee has conducted more than 1000 interviews and accommodating the doj request would require a diversion of labor on a staff that is already exhausted an overstretched. some members have also been reportedly frustrated by the justice department's refusal, thus far, to share information and interviews the committee has requested. on the one hand, this fight over the transcript is a good sign, especially for those of us who were concerned the doj was not doing much to

investigate the coup plot. if they want these documents, they must be seriously looking at bringing charges. but let's not forget that they already, inexplicably, declined to prosecute trump chief of staff mark meadows and social media director dan scavino for refusing to cooperate with the committee. and it does beg the question, how much is the doj relying on the committees investigation as opposed to doing their own work? we do know that attorney general merrick garland and the january six prosecutors at the doj are closely watching the committee, which is a good thing. because it does not matter how many millions of other people watch the hearings, they are ultimately for an audience of one, the attorney general, the man who can decide whether or not to bring charges against donald trump and his allies for their roles in the coup. and as the committee has been making the case, the open question is, what could trump be charged with. former press federal prosecutor harry lippman said an outside the box possibility after hearing the evidence presented at yesterday's hearing. quote, not sure if you could

convict him of attempted murder of the vice president but not clear you couldn't. this has to be the darkest moment in presidential history. yesterday's hearing included a lot of new revelations about just how close vice president pence was to danger on january the 6th. a committee described how at one point during his evacuation to a secure location, pence was just 40 feet away from the mob. and congressman pete aguilar revealed new information about with a far-right extremist in that mob attended to do. >> recent court filing by the justice department explains, the confidential informant from the proud boys, told the fbi that the proud boys would have killed mike pence if given a chance. >> the committee also confirmed that donald trump knew the capitol had been breach when he sent a tweet condemning mike pence for not having the, quote, courage to do what needed to be done. and the committee showed video evidence of how the crowd reacted to trump's message. >> mike pence has betrayed the

united states of america! >> you! >> bleep you mike pence! >> mike pence has betrayed this president and he has betrayed the people of the united states and we will never, ever forget! >> yeah! >> so, donald trump knew that mike pence was in danger when he sent that inflammatory tweet, intended for the rile up the crowd. one of his own aides described it has pouring gasoline on the fire. and all of these new details totally robot the narrative the right has been pushing for a year and a half, that these were peaceful protesters who got carried away, just got a little trespassing and not major criminals or domestic terrorists. no, the vice president could have been killed, as well as multiple members of congress, one of whom, ilhan omar, i will speak to in just a moment. but donald trump incited the group that, by their own admission, would have carried out deadly violence and they began in the chance.

so, frankly, i don't care whether merrick garland is watching these hearings live or just bingeing them all in one go. i just hope he is playing close attention to what is coming out of them. katie benner covers the department of justice for the new york times. she's been reporting on the january six committee and she joins me now. thank you so much for joining me on the show this evening, the january six committee is now cooperating with the doj. and yet your colleagues at the times report that, quote, democrats on the committee were stunned by the confrontational tone of the letter from the justice department and believe that the negotiations had been proceeding amicably after some initial public sniping, according to a person familiar with the discussions. katie, why is this all happening out in the open? isn't that unusual for the doj? >> it's unusual for the justice department. but keep in mind the committee itself has been pressuring the department. we've seen members of the panel probably come out and say we want the department to bring charges against andrea, we want the department to bring charges against trump's inner circle. that has been probably happening. with the justice department has

been saying behind the scenes is, if you do want us, in fact, to bring those charges, we cannot bring charges unless we have all the available evidence, which in this case does include the witness interviews that have been conducted. so, for example, the justice department would need to know where the witnesses have told the committee. because, for example, if they tell the committee one thing and they tell the justice department something else, and doj does not know that, that actually takes off the table a release really specific charge -- lying to the federal government. that would be an easy charge to make against somebody in trump's inner circle. but you can't make any charge unless you follow the evidence. if the committee is not going to give the evidence that the justice department, i don't think we can expect any kind of charges until that happened. >> does the doj's keen interest to the point of writing these letters and getting [inaudible] in the witness statements, there's a kind of put two and the criticism from within the democratic party -- a lot of people watching at home tonight -- that the doj doesn't seem to be

interested in prosecuting donald trump and his cabal? >> i think that we had evidence before this that the justice department was very interested in investigating all of the people who had any sort of relationship to the attack on january 6th or any of the planning that led up to it. we've reported that the january 6th investigation at the justice department includes a strong look at the lawyers involved and the plan to have mike pence tried to certify the election. the plan to submit fake slates of electors to congress, and the national archives, falsely stating that trump had won. >> yes. >> and the plan -- the planning of the rally itself. so, if those things have already started to come into the open, weeks and weeks before we saw this back and forth about the transcripts. >> katie, did you have a sense of how much the doj and the 1/6 committee understand how crucial it is to move ultra quick here? because if, slash, when republicans win the house in

november, they're just gonna shut down the january six committee as soon as possible. then they're going to go after attorney general garland, to, aren't they? >> so, there's a difference here. you are right that when republicans do in the house -- if they win the house -- that it will shut down the january six committee. but investigations do not end with a change in political parties. a great example of this, i think, is the hunter biden investigation. it began under the obama administration. it continued through the trump administration. it is continuing through the biden administration. that's three different presidential administrations. and multiple attorney general. so, -- prosecutions don't work just because of a change in, party in congress. i don't think that's as much of a concern for you garland, even if ag garland were to be removed, which i think is highly unlikely, the investigation would still continue. you are right, though, the january six committee has been very conscious about this and they've said that that is why they want to move at full speed and they want to have the report out before the midterms. >> very good.

good points, katie benner, i appreciate your analysis on reporting. >> thank you. >> one of the lives that was and doubted lee threatened by violent rioters storming the capitol so many capital was undoubtedly congresswoman ilhan omar, an ex falcon member of the squad who's become a hate figure for the maga folks. congresswoman, thank you for coming on the show this evening. >> thank you. >> along with speaker pelosi, you also had heightened security on january six because of all the many threats against you. the committee quoted rioters saying they would have killed members of congress. what is it like for someone like yourself to hear that set out loud on tv? >> it's terrifying. and i just have to say, i'm really grateful for the capitol police officers who were on my detail, who assured me out of that building before the insurrectionists were able to get to us. and for actually removing the

from the premises and taking me to a safe place, with the leaders of both the senate and the house. i remember distinctively seeing the look of fear in all of the congressional leaders. i remember what's mccarthy's face looked like, what mitch mcconnell's face looked like. i remember skelly's's face. these were people who understood the gravity of what was happening, they were literally afraid for their lives and for our country. and to see them now change their tone and downplay the insurrection and the likelihood of us being in danger, when they understood the imminent danger we were under, is shocking to me. but it is not surprising. because to them, everything is political. they will put their politics before our country. >> shocking but not surprising, we'll put. talking putting politics before

country, the committee released surveillance coverage of a man who marched on the capital capitol and showed he was also an actor with congressman barry loudermilk of georgia, the day before the riots had threatened speaker pelosi and congresswoman ocasio-cortez by name. how does it feel, knowing that your congressional colleague gave him a tour and then denied it for the past year? >> to me, it sounds criminal to continue to say, one, you didn't give a tour and deny the whole thing ever happening, when you realized the video evidence was coming out, then to say -- you know, you didn't give a tour that was problematic. and then when you see the tour that he gave was problematic -- because people were taking photos of areas, not tourists, it's interesting and really scary. and i feel like there needs to be some accountability for his

actions. and i hope the committees investigating him. >> yeah. loudermilk's defenses that it wasn't a tour, these were visiting constituents. and he was taking them to the gift shop and all sorts of other nonsensical arguments. he has a chance to speak to the committee but hasn't done so. today, congresswoman, we learned from a plea agreement that on january the 6th, writer mark meza was armed with a, quote, 0.45 caliber taurus revolver, that can fire both shotgun shells and regular bullets through the barrel. the gun was also loaded. doesn't this finally dispel the right-wing myth this pushed by technical sun on fox as the other night that no one showed up with guns at an insurrection? >> it does. we also haven't gotten to the bottom of the pipe bombs that were there. i remember, as the capitol police were escorting the, in a car that was armored, i remember hearing on the radio, the capitol police radio, them

talking about potential snipers that we're out there. we are going to learn a lot more that is going to confirm that real fears that existed from members of congress and just how close our country was to have a revolution that would have really ended the kind of democracy that we have known to love and that the world has revered. >> it's amazing that the country has just stopped bomb talking about pipe hours out there. congresswoman, stick around please, because i want to ask you after the break about ginni thomas and water support for a coup means, considering that her husband sits on the supreme court. i know you have a strong and what should happen to him. that's coming up next, don't go away. 't g away qulipta™ can help prevent migraine attacks. you can't prevent what's going on outside, that's why qulipta™ helps what's going on inside. qulipta™ is a pill. gets right to work to prevent migraine attacks and keeps them away over time.

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an hour and a half to two hours on january 5th, and when i pressed him on the point, i said, john, if the vice president did what you are asking him to do, we would lose lose nine to nothing in the supreme court, wouldn't we? and he initially started, well, i think we would lose only 7 to 2. but after some further discussion, he acknowledged, well, yeah, you are right. we would lose nine to nothing. >> that was greg jacob, mike pence's white house counsel, testifying before the january six committee yesterday about the conversation he had with lawyer john eastman, the man who wrote the coup memo on what

would happen if pence overturn the election on january six senate fit went to the supreme court. at one point he docked -- eastman thought -- that maybe they would have two justices, presumably samuel at leitao and clarence thomas? a very telling moment, as we continue to learn about the connections between the wife of clarence thomas, jeanne of trump world, and the coup itself. the washington post reported that the january six committee has obtained emails between eastman and jimmy thomas which, quote, show thomas's efforts to overturn the election were more expensive than previously known, leading the committee to ask thomas to testify. the story of the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas and her involvement in the plot to overturn our democracy has been building since back in january. back in march, i wrote about it too, noting that unlike others on the court, clarence thomas has never recuse himself from a case because of ginni thomas or her work. and given that thomas is probably not going to recuse himself going forward and definitely won't resign, impeachment seems to be the only remedy. if, that is, democrats in

congress are determined enough. back with me now is a democrat in congress, ilhan omar, democrat from minnesota who is also called for thomas's impeachment. congresswoman, it has been almost three months since we've learned about ginni thomas's techs to mark meadows. what is it like when you see some of these texts? they are endorsing some of the craziest, far-right conspiracy theories from the wife of a supreme court justice? watermarks on ballot papers proving corruption, having the bidens tried by a military tribunal in gitmo. this is insane stuff. >> yeah, mehdi. it's not only insane but dangerous. and i one to talk a little bit about the author of the cool memo, stir mr. eastman, he isn't just the author of that memo. he clerked with justice thompson. so, we know the connection between him and genie's long

and the, which is alarming. we have to think about the kind of circle that she is involved in. we've learned about the kind of pressure that she put on legislators across the country to do what he wanted to do. we know that she harassed meadow -- we recently learned that she said, pence was disgusting when he didn't do the actual thing of overturning the election, which is only him carrying out his constitutional duty. it does not make sense for us to continue to ignore the involvement this wife has on the decisions justice thompson thomas makes. and to me, it doesn't make any sense that we are not -- >> so, congresswoman -- >> and proceeding with that. >> i'm with you on that. but let me ask you this. a lot of defenders of --

it's misogyny to suggest she doesn't have her own views, to say that her views are her husband's views, even though in recent interview, she talked about her and her husband sharing the same principles and aspirations for america. do you think it is possible that they do not influence one another? that if ginni thomas want to overturn the election based on deranged conspiracy theories she was reading on line, clarence thomas didn't? >> i really don't understand how we can believe the texts of the emails we are reading, where she is pressuring meadows and not believe that she was pressuring her husband and the fact that mr. eastman thought there could be possibly two, maybe including her husband, that that information was uncommon from her. >> yeah, those text to meadows, if you put them alongside her emails to arizona lawmakers,

it's all very disturbing. you've called for clarence thomas -- who didn't mention any of this when he was judging on relevant cases, didn't recuse himself -- you've called for him to be impeached. your congressman colleague, bill kass girl, called for him to resign. why is it taking -- to resign on the thomas's? >> they need to be. and the fact that january six committee is thinking about calling her in, to be interviewed, it's a start. the seriousness and the danger that ms. thompson poses to our democracy and our republic cannot be overstated. and her husband has a huge role. and to me, it is dangerous to allow him to get away with what he's been able to get away with. >> i can only imagine what republicans would be saying if

this were sotomayor's husband or stephen breyer's wife involved in a coup attempt against donald trump. we can only imagine what they would be screaming for. congresswoman omar, we will have to leave it there, thank you so much for your time, appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> up next, the complicity of certain members of the senate in the planned coup -- and the fourth hearing for the january six committee coming on tuesday. don't miss the special recap of that with rachel maddow and the whole msnbc primetime gang right here, from 8 to 10 eastern. we will be right back. ight back. . a smart video calling device that makes working from home work. a 12-megapixel lens makes sure your presentation is crystal clear. and smart camera auto pans and zooms to keep you perfectly in frame. oh, and it syncs with your calendar. plus, with zoom, microsoft teams, and webex, you'll never miss a meeting. and neither will she. now that's a productive day. meta portal:

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6th, president trump told his top justice department officials, quote, just say the election was correct and leave the rest to me and the republican congressman. >> it has become clear since january the 6th that the actions in congress were at least adjacent to donald trump's coup plot. in the senate, the washington post reports, quote, senator cruz's efforts were of interest to the house committee investigating the january 6th attack on the u.s. capital capitol, in particular whether cruz was in contact with trump lawyer john eastman, a conservative attorney who's been his friend for decades and rocky legal memos aimed at denying biden's victory. eastman wrote in the first of his two members about overturning the election that his plan relied on a senator delaying certification. and he specifically mentioned

the possibility that cruz could do it. this is what ted cruz was yelling about from the back of a pick up truck in georgia just days before the insurrection. >> we are proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with you as we defend the united states of america! as we defend our constitution! as we defend our freedom! and we will not go quietly into the night, we will defend liberty into the future. and we are going to win. [applause] >> crews voted to overturn the election after the violent insurrection, after. the question you have to ask yourself is this -- if democrats really want to stop this from happening again, how on earth is ted cruz still in the senate? how has he not been expelled? how has he not faced any consequences? al franken represented minnesota in the senate for nearly a decade. he served with senator ted cruz on the judiciary committee. he now hosts the l franken podcast and found in the midwest values political action committee. thank you for coming on the

show tonight. you've been watching the hearings. >> thank, you mehdi -- >> how big, how serious, how existential was the threat, is the threat, to american democracy, based on what we have learned just in these three hearings. >> yes, i have. i don't think you can overstate it. i think that judge luttig said that it still presents a clear and present danger. but there is no question, i've been very pressed with the hearings and they exceeded my expectations, wonderfully presented. we've only had three. we've seen a lot and heard a lot of shocking stuff that didn't actually shocked me. but there is no question that there was widespread conspiracy to overturn a legitimate election. and i think that's as bad thing as you can possibly do in our democracy. >> when we haven't heard mentioned in the hearing so far, but we know he is of interest in the committee and we all saw what he did on january the 6th -- ted cruz, you served with him in the senate.

what do you make of his role in all this. should we be hearing more about him? >> absolutely. i said, after the sixth, very publicly, that there should be an ethics investigation of cruz and josh hawley and those who were going to deny certification, basically what they were trying to do is, basically, i guess do what eastman wanted the vice president to do, which is to throw this back to the states. that's what their intention was. and absolutely, we should be seeing who he is in contact with. it's interesting -- because you brought up the question, was he in contact with eastman? i guess his office today released -- to the best of his recollection. [laughs] he didn't even have it from him, to the best of my recollection. it was his office saying, it's to the best of his recollection, he doesn't -- that's pretty suspicious. and ted is --

he lies a lot. >> i have to ask, then -- you have to ask this question. you are no longer the senate because people in your own party were upset about stuff you reportedly did before you or senator. how is it possible that republican senators like ted cruz and josh hawley have faced no consequences at all for their role in trying to up and democracy in this country? they are still in the senate, 18 months later. forget expelling them, you mentioned ethics investigation -- i've not heard of any result of any investigation 18 months later. >> no, there hasn't been one, as far as i know. they usually say when there is an ethics investigation. and obviously, again, i very publicly called for that, they should have due process. but there should be an ethics investigation. and also, the january six committee should call cruz and hawley and if they have nothing to hide, they should be happy

to testify. >> yeah, that's always been the republican line, right? if you've got nothing to hide -- mike pence has been betrayed this week, including by chairman bennie thompson, as a courageous hero for not rejecting the electoral votes, for not listening to donald trump. how do you square that with the idea that it should never have been a difficult decision for him in the first place? i mean, he was just doing his job at the end of the day. >> yeah, it's kind of crazy. during the last hearing, they had vice president -- former vice president gore. and he did it very quickly. he said, well, if you are choosing between your own ambition and the constitution and democracy, it's not really a hard choice. it should not have been a hard choice for vice president trump. and i should add, he should have said something -- he should have said something before january 6th, publicly. >> yep. >> but certainly, he should have testified during the impeachment trial. and so should all of those

members of the administration, testify. because right now, as judge luttig said, trump presents a clear and present danger. and [inaudible] that impeachment was about not allowing him to run for office ever again. so those people who testified were not heroes. they had to testify. they were called to testify. >> yeah, i mean, you are right, he should've spoken out before january the 6th. >> [inaudible] >> he should have testified in the impeachment trial, as you rightly point out. he should be testifying in the 1/6 committee. he was a kind of elephant not in the room. quick last question, we talked earlier on the show back republican congressman barry loudermilk apparently giving a talk to someone who had someone that had turned up at the insurrection. i have to ask you, how many personal towards did you give to someone to someone you didn't know, who took pictures of --

>> did that all the time. no, i gave my family tours. and some of my daughters in laws. but they didn't take pictures of tunnels. >> no. most people don't take pictures of tunnels. so, we do need to hear more from congressman loudermilk. former senator al franken of minnesota, thank you for your time today, appreciate it. >> thank you, mehdi. thank you. >> the very next month after he tried to keep trump in power, ted cruz famously abandoned his constituents during a massive winter storm and fled to cancun. tonight, another republican just pulled a cruise. that story next. story next. at that? ♪ ♪ jerry, you've got to see this. seen it. trust me, after 15 walks it gets a little old. i really should be retired by now.

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>> president joe biden has approved a disaster declaration for the state of montana, after combination of heavy rainfall and water temperatures melted the snow and caused unprecedented flooding in yellowstone national park. over 10,000 people were evacuated in response to raging waters, and subsequent road slight, which of course sustained damage to roads and destroyed bridges. at least one house was completely swept away by the water, sent careening down the river after it detached from its base. and as the state dealt with this unprecedented devastation at the height of -- montana's republican governor

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from the january 6th hearings came from that conservative judge, who proclaimed that donald trump and his allies present a clear and present danger to democracy. and we are seeing that present danger, that existing threat, play out right now in new mexico. in otero county, a group of three republican commissioners refused to certify the results of last week's primary, not because of any allegations of widespread fraud, but because otero county uses dominion voting machines which have been the target of false and defamatory conspiracy theories from trump to sympathizers for more than a year now. and these three county

commissioners, apparently believe them. and so, they refused to give the results their approval, citing no data, no country facts. they chose to trust their gut feeling, based on lies from the trump campaign, and the right-wing media machine. lies that these machines just can't be trusted. new mexico secretary of state and then sued to force the commission to do its job. the states supreme court then ruled in her favor, demanding the commission to certify the results by today. so the commission held a hearing, just hours ago, pursuing to the courts order, to determine whether or not they would comply. but one of the commissioners, a man named coy griffin, is physically absent, and had to call into the hearing. he couldn't be there in person because he spent the day in washington, d.c., so he could be sentenced for preaching the grounds of the u.s. capitol. during, you guessed it, the january 6th insurrection. so this afternoon, griffin was sentenced to 14 days, time served, and fine, $3,000. and this evening, by speakerphone, he announced he would not vote to certify the

results of the otero county primary. >> my vote tonight is gonna be no. and my vote to remain a no isn't based on any evidence, it's not based on any facts. it's only based on my gut, and my gut feeling, and my own intuition. and that's all i need to base my vote on the elections right there. so that's my piece on this. i still believe that our elections are fraudulent. i believe that we already have enough evidence to prove and substantiate what the media keeps calling, unsubstantiated. well, we have substantiated it, in otero county, and we did it through a great vote through our commission board, and through the valiant efforts of all those who went out and canvassed the vote, knocked on doors, and found out that they're with ghost voters and missing voters. so, that's my team. my vote's gonna be no tonight,

and i think we need to hold our ground. [applause] >> the insurrectionists says the elections cannot be trusted, without evidence, because his gut tells him so. davey rioters truly cannot script it better. the democratic party secretary of state for new mexico, she's the one behind that lawsuit, forcing the otero county commissioners to certify the election. secretary, oliver, welcome to the show. we should know griffin sentiment did not carry the day. i want to show our audience how that hearing ended. have a watch. >> i don't wanna let anybody down. i know there's a lot of people that want us to stand our ground, and i totally understand that. but i don't, i don't think that it's worth getting us removed from our seats, in order to do that. and i hope that you all understand that. i'm gonna make a motion for the approval to certify the canvas of the 2022 primary election in a second.

all in favor? >> i. >> all opposed? >> okay, motion passes. >> so, what happens next? >> wow, mehdi, thank you, first of all, for bringing this up, and bringing this before our national audience, because i think what folks need to know is this is a canary in the coal mine. not only 2022, but 2024. if individuals who are charged with very clear in just just because they have feelings that are not based in any fact and evidence about how our elections are run, to not certify our elections. we face a breakdown of our democracy. and what you saw now, quite frankly, was to individuals, who backed up from the brink, quite honestly, falling into chaos. you know, had these commissioners not certified the

election results, the county level candidates in that county would not have been put on the general election ballot. voters would have been disenfranchised. 7300 voters, republicans, democrats, and -- at that county hearing in new mexico would not have had their votes counted. and that would have been an absolute travesty for our democracy. >> it's such an important point you make, secretary of state. because these votes that are thrown out, whether they're in the 2020 presidential election or in otero county primary, are not democratic votes. they are american voters across the board, they include republicans, independents, whatever. and it's amazing that republicans support the idea of their own leaders throwing out their own votes. but let me ask you this. the crowd reacted very positively to griffin's announcement. that he will vote no. does it concern you that so many voters in new mexico, at this local county level, have bought into the big lie? >> it's absolutely concerning.

and what troubles me the most is that the belief that these folks have bought into, besides the fact that they're not based in evidence and or facts or reality, they are also being propagated intentionally. so, we have folks that are big lies cheerleaders, they're going around the country, and here in our state, they are deliberately picking these county venues, because they, quite frankly, cds county commissioners and spray. their prey to not only propagate their point of view, which is of course, the big lie. but they are prey to utilize to make money. in fact, the individuals who got this particular county commission and several people in otero county to believe in this, have a gofundme page where they raised over $300, 000, further for their own personal use. right, so we can see what's

happening there. and most concerning thing is there's so much factual evidence to counter what these individuals are selling, what donald trump, and what the folks here in otero county were selling, and nobody wanted to hear any of it. they didn't want to listen to any of it, -- >> because they have alternative facts. it doesn't matter what the factual evidence is. let me ask you this, just focusing on couy griffin himself, according to nbc news, and i quote, during the right on january six, griffin shouted disassociated believed the election was stolen from them, then president donald trump, climbed a toppled fence and another barrier to access the capital fence, and used a bullhorn to lead the throngs in prayer. is someone, who participated in an insurrection, and prosecuted for it, really someone should be able to oversee our elections going forward? how is that okay? how is that normal? >> it's not okay. it's not normal. and i think the important thing

that folks should know, and i think what he and his colleagues really didn't understand is that they have a ministerial duty. and their duty is to make sure that the process was followed, to make sure that a county clerk in an individual county, which by the way, in otero county, the county clerk is fabulous. she's a republican. she does an excellent job. but to make sure she did her job, sign off on it and that's it, not to have control over the outcome of the election. >> yeah, i guess the problem is that that is fundamentally what they want. they won control over the outcome of the election. they don't accept any results, if they don't agree with it. and they sadly bought into these insane conspiracy theories about dominion, and foreign control, and all of that stuff. i worry sometimes that we focus so much on what's happening on capitol hill, and the federal level, and the insurrection in washington, d.c., when it's the local level that's the real problem. new mexico secretary of state maggie toulouse oliver, thank

you for your time. that is all in on this friday night. i'll be back the sunday night, right here on msnbc, at 8 pm eastern, with the mehdi hasan show. msnbc prime starts right now with ari melber. good evening? >> good evening, maybe. and thank you very much. thank you at home joining us. i am ari melber. today the new york times broke ground in the collective understanding of what happened on january 6th. the proud boys paramilitary group were part of that crowd storming the capital capitol that day and all trump had shouted them out before the election. but the way these groups achieved the grave, remarkable act of reaching the capitol during that non long scheduled national security event, that's not been fully accounted for. that's all you're going to get into right now. because this was, of course, one of the only days of the year that both houses of congress have all their members gathered, along with the vice president. many people tend to bring their families as well for that swearing in ceremony. and