tv The Sunday Show With Jonathan Capehart MSNBC June 19, 2022 7:00am-9:00am PDT
screening of the big pay back at the apollo theater today in new york city, sponsored by ben & jerry's. thank you. >> ben & jerry's, that sounds delicious. rob andrews simmons and dr. robert shape alison, thank you so much. that does it for me. thank you for watching. happy juneteenth. also happy father's day. in terry afternoon apps, all dads out there. the sunday show with john kaye part begins right now. >> good morning, welcome to the sunday sound. i'm jonathan capehart. this sunday, the fragility of american democracy is being exposed hearing by hearing. the january 6th committee will conduct its fourth public hearing this tuesday. and if it's anything like the two this week, buckle up. the biggest take away? donald trump and his allies
knew he lost the 2020 election and that their scheme to overturn the results was illegal. and yet, they attempted it anyway. >> president trump rejected the advice of his campaign experts on election night. and instead, followed the chorus recommended by apparently inebriated rudy giuliani. to just claim he won. and insist that the vote counting stop. to falsely claim everything was fraudulent. >> and there are an lies the true nature of these hearings. to truly hold trump and his fellow coup plotters accountable. the committee has already uncovered evidence that trump may have committed serious federal crimes. but it's up to the justice department to bring criminal charges. as neil cocktail argues in the opinion page of the new york times today, attorney general merrick garland could bring a charge of conspiracy to defraud the united states even if trump truly believed in what he was
saying. and it wasn't just democracy at stake, but lives as well. vice president mike pence faced an intense pressure campaign from trump to overturn the election. here is what he thinks when he refused. >> make no mistake about the fact, the vice president life wasn't danger. a recent court filing by the department of justice explains that a confidential informant from the proud boys told the fbi the proud boys would have killed mike pence if given a chance. >> [noise] >> approximately 40 feet, that's all there was. 40 feet between the vice president and the mob. mr. jacob, don trouble recall the vice president to check on a safety? >> he did not. >> dressed 40 feet.
now, listen to this account of pence deciding between his safety, and continuing to stay on site. >> when we got down to the secure location, secret service directed us to get into the cars. which i did. and then i noticed that the vice president had not so i got out of the car that i've gotten into and i understood that the vice president had refused to get into the car. the head of his secret service detail, tim, had said, i assure you we're not going to drive out of the building without your permission. the vice president had said something to the effect of tim, i know you, i trust you but you're not the one behind the wheel. >> imagine being unable to trust the guardsmen to keep you safe. worried that they will spear you away at the behest of the boss to keep you away from fulfilling our constitutional duty to certify a free and fair
election. judge michael luttig, a preeminent conservative jurist once concern for the supreme court by president george w. bush and a former adviser to pence said it best at thursday's hearing. quote, tunnel trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american democracy. joining me now, msnbc legal analyst former u.s. attorney in alabama and co-host of the hashtag sisters in law podcasts, joyce vance. and president and ceo of the leadership conference on civil and human rights, maya wylie. choice, maya, thank you both very much for coming back to the sunday show. choice, i'm starting with you. as much as former president pence is being lionized, you take issue with his not testifying before the committee. why is it important that he do so? >> so i think it's a subtle but
an important point. folks on mike pence's team stood up at the very end to keep democracy from crumbling at the behest of donald trump. and now, as the story begins to come out, we find out there are some important pieces that are missing. and those pieces are in the hands of mike pence. it's his story to tell. it's important that he talk for instance about this conversation that he had with donald trump on the morning of the sixth. it's important for us as a country to understand the truth. it's critical for the justice department, when the justice department is determining whether there are sufficient admissible evidence to prove for instance that the former president knew that the course of action he was launching upon was illegal. those sorts of elements could very readily come from pence's direct conversations with trump. that's why it's so important that they become public. >> maya, let me stick with this with you about vice president pence is whether he should
testify or not. i'm just wondering if he could be saving his testimony for possible justice department proceedings where his testimony would carry substantial legal weight. >> well, certainly that's possible. and we don't know for sure because we don't have any insight into the department of justice is thinking on this. but let me just say this. unless the department of justice has expressly asked him to not testify or that very reason, jonathan. he absolutely should. because the truth is, there is nothing inconsistent as we're going to see with many witnesses as we've already seen with the department of justice, asking for transcripts. there is nothing inconsistent with corroborating with the january six committee. and telling your story as well to the parliament of justice. as long as you're telling the truth and your consistent. but i also want to add one other point here.
which is all of this happened, mike pence knew and experience this fear, this danger. the pressure tactics that he knew to be unconstitutional and lawful. and yet, he stood by donald trump during the impeachment hearing on this very topic. >> yeah, i mean, that is a thing, choice, and all of this, as much as we've heard from all the witnesses on thursday. correct me if i'm wrong. they were all republicans, all people who worked in that administration, telling us these harrowing stories from behind the scenes of what was happening in the days leading up to january 6th and what was happening on january 6th. and yet, they didn't come forward until they were subpoenaed or the committee began its investigation. >> the at the end of this administration, there was a line that these people wouldn't permit the former president across. but it was a very low bar, it
was actually staging a full on coup and stealing the election after it had been one by the democrats. that, when you think about it, is a very low bar for preserving democracy. to maya's point, we go into impeachment. and mike pence stands at the former presidents side. it seems like this is an important consideration for voters going into midterms and into 2024. if trump and the people around him see the return to office, is this the sort of cavalier regard for democracy that we'd like to see in charge of the country? or do americans deserve more respect for the constitution and for their rights? >> let's talk more about holding donald trump accountable, maya, because on the front page of the new york times today, there's a story headline. a key hurdle for prosecutors proving which trump believed. and it points out that trump issued a 12 page statement this week that could be, as the times reports, the beginnings of a legal defense. given what we've seen so far,
does he have a legitimate defense? >> let's just start with the fact that we don't even know with all the evidence is yet. as we've seen in these hearings, we're learning with each hearing, even those of us who've been watching this closely. what we did not know. before the hearing. or what gets released only because the hearing is coming up. so i just want to say, first of all, we don't have all the evidence. secondly, there is always a defense, right? that's why there are defense attorneys and it's how our system works. of course, their arguments for the defense. that's not the question. the question is isn't there an argument, was the strength of the evidence? and the strength of the evidence right now makes very clear that there must be a criminal investigation of donald trump. and investigations, let's just make it clear, how our system works, prosecutors don't start investigations knowing for sure that is going to end in
charges. they don't. what they know is there is enough smoke there to figure out if there is a fire. and if there's a fire burning, who set it? right now, we've got a lot of evidence appointed don't from having reason to know that there was no reason for him to contest the election results. but even if he did contested. we also know that he said -- just this one point. the proud boys for the footsoldiers. roger stone was henchmen. he goes into a presidential debate and says to the proud boys, stand by. and it's the proud boys that orchestrate and are charged with sedition. what we don't know is how much directly attaches him to that. but i think a choice actually made this point when we were on the beep earlier this week. that the question is also whether or not he was aiding, abetting, soliciting. they're all all kinds of ways
are to be part dissipating in sedition. also him just straight-up defrauding the united states government. which is a separate criminal charge. >> joyce, i want to get you on something that neil patty all said in his new york times oven in peace. but we have to go to a break. so everyone, don't go anywhere, we're gonna continue this discussion after a break. and look deeper into revelations of emails between ginni thomas and john eastman. that's next. that's next. y businesses! you all deserve something epic! so we're giving every business, our best deals on every iphone - including the iphone 13 pro with 5g. that's the one with the amazing camera? yep! every business deserves it... like one's that re-opened! hi, we have an appointment. and every new business that just opened! like aromatherapy rugs! i'll take one in blue please! it's not complicated. at&t is giving new and existing business customers our best deals on every iphone. ♪ ♪
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only 7 to 2. then after some further discussion acknowledged, well, you are right. we would lose nine to nothing. >> that is interesting. coup mastermind john eastman initially thought that the supreme court would rule seven to against him, if it weighed in on his clearly illegal plan. even more interesting is the new york times reporting that eastman had inside knowledge of the dynamics on the supreme court. then again, he did clerk for supreme court justice, clarence thomas, and his friends with thomas's wife jenny. and with each passing day, it seems, new relations emerged that showed ginni thomas all up in eastman's efforts to overturn a free and fair presidential election. the washington post reports of the january six committee has emails between thomas and eastman that, quote, show that ginni thomas's efforts to overturn the election or more expensive than previously known.
the newest revelations led the january six committee to officially invite the supreme court justices wife to sit down for an interview. according to her exclusive interview, with the concert of all the daily caller, thomas says that she is looking forward to it. so are we. if she actually shows up. joyce vance and maya wylie are back with me. so joyce, explain in plain language why john thomas's interactions is so problematic. >> so, the context for all of the problems that the court has been going through with the public perception of this integrity for the last few months, and perhaps most poignant leads the leaked draft opinion and the abortion case, is that the court is struggling with those image issues. and the public confidence in the court is very important. because of, court the court decides these difficult issues that parties cannot resolve amongst themselves.
and so, without confidence in the courts that institution is a very vulnerable and makes our society vulnerable. now we have this incredible suggestion that there going to be improper communication between john eastman, he was one of justice thomas's former law clerk's, and justice thomas's wife jenny. a known right-wing activist. do we know that for sure we don't? and certainly she's entitled to tell her side of the story. he has already said, i think, on his substack, and his communications involved his requests that he can speak to a group that she is a part of. so it is possible that there is an innocent explanation. but there's an awful lot of smoke there. it is important that we determine whether there is fire. and that responsibility falls to the court. which needs to very carefully manage its own integrity in its own internal operations. but also, this is appropriate for the committee and perhaps even the justice department to take a look at. there is enough smoke here that you should be questioned just
like any other private citizen would be, if they had potential information in an investigation of this magnitude. >> maya, the issue here, even going further into the weeds on this, is that justice thomas did not recuse himself from a january six related court case. it came before the court. and that is why there is this huge spotlight on ginni thomas's communications, one, her activities throughout. issues related to january six and the 2020 election. but also the fact that she is communicating with trump's lawyers, who is the mastermind of this plot. >> well, yes. let's get into some more weeds, john. because it is not only that justice thomas refused, it did not recuse himself, and clearly it appears that he should have. unless, in fact, he had no
knowledge that his wife, his best friend, was doing all of this. and we don't know whether he did or not. but certainly, he was the only, in the lone, dissenter in that opinion on january 6th. he is in a very ideological court, where the majority is quite conservative. he actually is the lone dissent in that says, no, protect donald trump here. one other piece of context for this, which also goes back to the contacts the joyce was talking about, in the mississippi abortion case, the justice alito lead. do the law clerks of the supreme court, have they've been asked to share their self-defense and their private communications. in an investigation to determine whether or not they did something that frankly is not illegal. it is not on the books that it
is illegal. it breaks the norms of the court, certainly. but it is not a crime. but here is the thing. we have something that may actually be a crime. and yet nobody is asking justice thomas for any evidence that there were no communications. between him and his wife. about these things. now, obviously, that is a dramatic step that we would not take unless there was evidence of a crime. my only point is, there is no question that for the average person that says, you know, there is no greater stake in our democracy than whether a lifetime appointment to a court that gets to say whether congress is right or wrong on a law. they used to say whether something violates our constitution or not. might be subject to influence. and to a particular person in power. that is a pretty significant allegation that we need to
understand better. >> hey, joyce, i mentioned at the end of the last block, and i wanted to ask you a question that somebody else brings up in the opinion piece for the new york times, so here we go. the times story raises doubts about whether donald trump believed what he was doing was illegal. neil writes, quote, courts have ruled a genuine but mistaken belief is not enough to defeat a conspiracy charge. what is your view? is neil right? >> neil is always right. that is typically my view. he's a fine supreme court advocates. but also he has a deep understanding of the law. and -- is done in the weeds, we are done in the rights of the weeds here. during the entire all over north situation, there were some successful arguments that were made on the basis of the facts that knowledge was not always necessary, in the face of legal impossibility. i think, neil in this piece,
does a great job of laying out precisely the predicament that the doj is in. there is a lot of evidence. there are a lot of potential charges. each of those charges require different types of proofs, and of course the doj has to have evidence that is admissible. sometimes the hearsay is not admissible, other times there are exceptions that will let other court statements that are offered to prove the truth of a matter, and there was a very important evidentiary considerations. and then you have these issues of the legal defenses, and what might the former president be able to argue? really, as the evidence emerges here, it looks increasingly like it is possible for the doj to prove not just that trump knew that the plan, this whole green day sweep or slate of electors, however you want to call it, that's that was an illegal plan. but also if you back up a step, it is clear that the former president knew that he lost the election. his attorney general told him that.
he lost more than 68 lawsuits that were filed in the courts. including ten that were rolled on by judges that he put in place. when you put all of that evidence together, a pretty compelling picture emerges. and as neil points out, there are a lot of different ways to prosecute the former president. >> right. it is neil also says, he makes the case that those hearings are given the department of justice the cover and the foundation to do what a lot of people wanted to do. we just need to see whether they actually go ahead and do it. joyce vance, maya wylie, thank you both very much for coming back to the sunday show. be sure to tune in on tuesday for special coverage of the next january 6th hearing on noon eastern, led by count mackinnon. andrea mitchell, and -- jackson. with a special committee led by rachel maddow, beginning at 8 pm eastern, all here on msnbc. after the, break the federal reserve just raise interest rates to try to campaign inflation. in over here the condo.
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to stay optimistic. he told the associated press that a recession is, quote, not inevitable. that maybe, but americans are already feeling the pain. earlier i spoke with austin goolsbee, former chairman of the council of economic advisers for president obama. and professor at the university of chicago, booth school of business. austin, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> thank you for having me back. >> all right. so. will the interest rate hike works in tamping down inflation? maybe. maybe not. i mean, it depends how much of the inflation you think is coming from supply disruptions and how much from demand? it's important to remember, the only instrument the fed has, it just has a hammer. and that hammer is, it can reduce the demand of parts of the economy that are interest rates sensitive. like housing, like buying of cars, buying consumer durables.
and sometimes, that's the right answer. in sometimes, that's not the right answer. now we got to hope that it's going to get a little bit of a tailwind as some of these supply disruptions hopefully ease over the summer. but there's definitely a risk that with fed starts raising rates, it leads us into recession that they raise the rates fastening the economy can handle. >> and that is a great segue into my next question, because i was wondering if by making money more expensive to borrow, it doesn't the fed run the risk of hastening a recession it's hoping to avoid? >> yeah, look, your on to exactly the central dilemma that the fed always faces but especially in times of great uncertainty like this. they're trying to apply the brakes on one side to offset how hard the accelerators going on the other side. and if they go too far, they
exactly as you say, their goal is to prevent a recession but they can cause a recession. >> so then given the 0.7 5% raise in the interest rates, do you think the fed has gone too far? >> it is indeed. now ray some cells are still very low, by historic terms. and i don't think there's anything wrong with kind of moving interest rates back to around the levels they were before covid. as covid drifts away, especially in this context that we've had, high inflation. but if they keep raising 75 basis points as they call it, even a full percentage point at each meeting. there is definitely danger that in the face of, we've got fiscal drag as we call it, that we had a big amount of spending
the last year. but everything's all about compared to the previous year. so we had plus two chilling last, year that becomes minus two trillion this year. so the fed is definitely going to watch how hard they slam on that break. and if we start to see over the next three months, in the data, that the core inflation, not counting gas prices and food prices, which are heavily affected by the war, but the inflation of everything else. if it starts coming down and we get relief, that would be a great sign that the fed maybe can navigate not having a recession. if we don't see any relief in that i, kind of think we're going to be calling up the ghost of paul volker and the fed is gonna be thinking they got a raise interest rate a whole lot and then it would be quite likely we had a recession. >> austin, let me get you on one more thing before i let you go. on the front page of the washington post this morning, there's a story about how people are pulling back on
spending. they're pulling back on haircuts, salon appointments, manicures, pedicures, buying cars, all sorts of things. and that spending is down not just on goods but on services. talk a little bit about how long, if you can predict the future, how long do you think consumers are going to have to pare back in order to deal with the inflation that's shooing up their wage increases? >> you know, partly, he never asked gonna condiments for prediction of the future. there are still arguing about trying to predict things that already happened. but if you think about the consumer side, it's important to remember that some major component of that slow down and spending, that's the point of what's the fed is doing. the fed is raising the interest rate, trying to get people to spend less on cars, on housing and an interest rate sensitive
things. now if that's also spreading over into services as you mentioned, that's going to be a leading indicator of is the fed tightening too hard. i think you've got a little bit of pent-up savings coming out of last year we had big tax cuts, big wage increases. but as people work through that and if the unemployment rate starts going up. they're going to run out of money. and you've already seen that. if it costs $125 to fill your gas tank, people are going to be more sensitive to the prices in other areas of the economy. >> yeah. it is pretty incredible to read the doubling stories, the fed trying to tamp down the overheating of the economy and at the same time trying to avoid a recession. you raise a very good point
that the fed is trying to do two things at once. and runs the risk of hastening, damage to the other. austin goolsbee, thank you for coming to the sunday show. >> great to see you again. >> and after the break, when you, i am on cam one. this is kim too. and you think of lgbtq civil rights history. many may think of new york and san francisco. my next guest argues the spark for the revolution was lit right here in the nation's capital. we'll talk about it next. about it next ass is green ♪ ♪ i'm way ahead of schedule with my trusty team ♪ ♪ there's heather on the hedges ♪ ♪ and kenny on the koi ♪ ♪ and your truck's been demolished by the peterson boy ♪ ♪ yes -- ♪ wait, what was that? timber... [ sighs heavily ] when owning a small business gets real,
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here we go... remember, mom's a kayak denier, so please don't bring it up. bring what up, kayak? excuse me? do the research, todd. listen to me, kayak searches hundreds of travel sites to find you great deals on flights, cars and hotels. they're lying to you! who's they? kayak? arr! open your eyes! compare hundreds of travel sites at once. kayak. search one and done. as we celebrate pride month, we often talk about san francisco or new york, stonewall riots as laying the groundwork for gay rights. but in a new book, my next guest makes the case that the lgbtq community here in washington d.c. played a pivotal role in the fight for
lgbtq equality. joining me now is talent magazine columnist jamie karadzic he is the author of the lengthy book i have here in my hand, secret city, the hidden history of gay washington. jamie, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> thank you, jonathan, for having me. >> why write this book? and why do you argue that the revolution was lit here? >> i wrote the book in washington is a city of secrets. particularly since world war ii. when the united states becomes a global superpower and start building a bureaucracy for managing secrets and homosexuals became the most dangerous secret. and so i thought that a book exploring our history, our national political history through the most dangerous secret of all, homosexuality, will make a very interesting book. and as for why washington has this place in lgbtq history, it's the seat of our national government. and at the earliest gay rights
activism really started in washington. with the founding of the mattachine society of washington. led by frank hannity who is the first government employee who was fired because he was gay and decided to actually challenge it. the first picket for gay rights is held outside the white house in 1965. and then in washington in 1975, the federal government lifted man on key people serving in the civil service. so washington d.c. effectively because of the first cities to protect people in their employment. >> let's talk about one other person who you write about frank hannity, one of the grand daddies of the movement. and he got fired. and as you say, this is a city of secrets or homosexuality was something you hid. and yet, -- was someone who was never in the closet. black, gay man, out, close adviser to dr. martin luther
king. the architect of the march on washington. talk about his role in secret city. >> two weeks before the march, strom thurmond, lead in segregationist senator from south carolina basically outs tim to the extent that he could be outed. but he brings up a old rests record for homosexual offense in california about a decade before. and he just announced on the floor of the senate. trying to basically ruin the march in washington. trying to cause a scandal, trying to give them that press. but more like the king of the other leaders of the march decided to stand by ruston and defend him and rest and really that becomes the first public figure to survive an outing and he doesn't have a very successful career as a civil rights activists after that. >> and as i mentioned, and as you talked about, your book is about the history of the lgbtq movement in america, centered on washington. but as we have seen over, my gosh, over the last few months but certainly within the last few weeks, just an onslaught of
vitriol, and state capitals and in cities, whether they're going against drag queen library hour or as the case in texas, where the republican party platform flat out says is anti lgbtq. >> they wouldn't even allow the log cabin republicans to come to their convention. the log cabin hook and are gay republican organization. this is a real throwback almost in the 90s. i recall that was a big controversy in the 1990s with the texas gop. banning their own gay supporters. and i would just find them back to 1978, ronald reagan was preparing to run for president. there was a ballot initiative in the state of california to banning k school teachers. and ronald reagan came out against at the week before. he was actually a decisive voice in defeating that referendum. so i would just urge those
texas gopers to take ronald reagan's example. i don't think they'll listen to me. >> and one other thing, nbc news has been collinson -- had a story that went up on friday about anti-lgbtq threats fueled by internet's far-right machine shutdown trans rights and drag events. why do you think the far-right is so unnerved, why did they have us in their crosshairs? >> i think if you look at the kind of brought a sweep of gay history in this country. it's often two steps forward and one step back. so after the stonewall uprising, you have the kind of gay liberation leading the way in the early 1970s. there's a backlash in the mid late 1970s. after ellen comes out, there's all this cake cultural visibility in the 90s, in the early 2000s 50 federal marriage amendment to enshrine anti gay beliefs in the constitution. and now, i think we're again
seeing a lot of more visibility for gay people in our society, for trans people in our society. and there's a backlash. but ultimately when, you look at this history, i'm generally optimistic. >> we've got less than 20 seconds. 20 seconds i'm going to read my favorite part from jamie's book as i think this is a great cities chapter 33. it's 15 on the morning to 26, 1980, and congressman bob livingston was extraordinarily drunk, hiding in the congressional jim penny the rayburn house office building, petrified that a team of highly trained right-wing homosexual assassins working on behalf of ronald reagan was about to kill him. girl. jamie kirchick, thank you for coming to the sunday. sound >> i think you saw the book this morning, thanks a lot. >> read a paragraph like, that it sold itself. antuna next sunday as a cap of pride month by sitting down with a pioneering lgbtq+ members of the stage and screen, including luverne cox, hy-vee far seen, wilson cruz and tony
award winning playwright michael are jackson. watch pride of stage and screen with jonathan capehart next sunday at 10 pm eastern on msnbc and streaming on peacock. and up next, all check in with my on gloria to get her take on january six and the economy. don't go anywhere. hey, and korea. okay. ahhh! wa-hoo! ha ha! no! no ha ha! my a1c stayed here, it needed to be here. ruby's a1c is down with rybelsus®. my a1c wasn't at goal, now i'm down with rybelsus®. mom's a1c is down with rybelsus®. (♪ ♪) in a clinical study, once-daily rybelsus® significantly lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes.
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week with bombshells from the january 6th hearings to the rising prices of everything from gas to food. so who better to check in with who tell us how she sees it then tv's favorite aunts, my aunt gloria. welcome back to the sunday show. >> great to be here. >> i am so glad that you are here. let's talk to the january 6th hearings. what do you think about what you have heard so far.
>> i have been watching. this man is crazy. and that is scary. i think about what could've happened if it was an election, pence is a career politician, he knew about the constitution. whether it was -- or giuliani, he did exactly what he said. so my concern is, who stops the presidents? you know. in a situation where it could be like a putin, nobody stops him! that is a scary part. he basically said that he had one. and everybody told him that he had not. but he decided to tell people that he had won anyway. and listen to giuliani. so my biggest concern is, what if he decides to press the nuclear something. who is going to stop him? it is obviously crazy. >> well, and gloria, on that point, there is a new poll out. an emphasis abc news poll.
where it says nearly six in ten americans, believe that president trump, former president trump, should be charged with a crime for his role in the january 6th riot. do you agree with that? >> i agree. i think we stretch our. i don't think that you will ever go to prison, but i think he should be charged. i think they will stop from sending him to prison because they would not want a president in prison but he should be charged. it is obvious. you can stop the committee hearings now. he started it. >> well. we have got three more, four more hearings to go, and gloria, so they are not going to stop. but let me get you on one thing before we go. everybody, everybody, is talking about the high praise of everything. so how is inflation affecting you? it is high. you have got to review your budget. continuously. because the prices have gone up
every day. i went to a farmers market, and i was shocked to see fresh vegetables costing so much. that, means for retirees, you've got to make extra money somewhere. you know? and i think that every family, i am hoping that people will cut down rather than take on these additional credit cards and high interest rates. you do not have to learn how to grow your own food. you will have to go back to growing your own food because it is cheaper than buying it in the grocery store. i have been affected, everybody's been affected. gas, food prices. i've never seen anything so high! >> and gloria, i'm going to tell you something. what about those of us who live in cities? we can't grow our own food! whether we supposed to do? >> yes you can. you can grow food on your patio, you can grow flowers, you can grow food. he just puts some medicine into those flowers. but you can grow fared.
they are called back up dark gardens, patio gardens, you can do it. >> aunt gloria, good luck with that. aunt gloria, every time you are here you always drop more than a negative wisdom. thank you very much. as always, for coming to the sunday show. >> you are so welcome. glad to have you here. >> i'm going to grow my garden. coming up in the next hour, many republicans have pushed the big lie and are winning their primaries. putting them one election away from being a direct threat to democracy. plus, i spoke with a family who purchased an old plantation in southern virginia. and later learned that their ancestors were enslaved on the very same property. a fascinating conversation that you do not want to mess as we commemorate june 18th, this and much more on the sunday show. the sunday show i'm susan and i'm 52 and i live in san francisco, california. i have been a sales and sales management professional
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>> welcome back to the sunday show, i'm jonathan kaye part. that when you from conservative judge michael luttig at the january 6th hearing is a reminder that the insurrection that began that day is still unfolding. the washington post reported that so far this election year, more than 100 republican winners backed donald trump's false claims of election fraud. that includes nevada's gym marcia who this week won the state's republican primary for secretary of state. and pennsylvania's republican nominee doug mastriano, who was seen outside the capitol on january 6th. their primary victories could be a warning sign of what is to come at the general election. for these big lie supporters are now just one election away from being in positions to turn the aspirations of the january six insurrectionists into reality. a victory in november would put them in a position to do more, perhaps irreparable, damage to
american democracy. joining me now is msnbc political contributor and analyst, matthew dowd. he is also author of revelations on the river, healing a nation, healing ourselves. also joining, us soviet. nelson former house republican committee counsel, and the author of the the one you need. 21 life lessons i weren't learned while taking care of everyone but me. and, my washington post colleague an msnbc political analyst pull jennifer reuben, she is the author of resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. thank you all very much for being here this morning, for coming back to the sunday show. sophia, you are in the middle so i'm starting with you. here is what i find. interesting. about what judge lueck said. it was the truth! and his words have been met with incredible silence from the usual loudmouths mccarthy and jordan. why the silence? jonathan, look, you know that
representative jordan and mccarthy, they had been in the trump camp since the insurrection of january 6th. don't forget that minority leader kevin mccarthy who was pretty angry on january 6th and so that he called trump out, on a pretty terse on call, went down to mar-a-lago just a few weeks later and kissed the trump ring. so if you will out there in america keep expecting the republicans who are in congress right now to the right thing, you're going to be waiting for a really long time. they have made their bed, they're going to lie and it, they know that the cards in the winds of politics look really good for them going into the midterms in the fall. so they're not going to rock that boat. they know this is wrong. they know it was wrong back then, jonathan. evidently speck them to call it out because it behooves them to keep going down the road are going down. >> i'm not expecting it, anything. matt, talk about how dangerous it is for american democracy that a far-right election
denier who like doug mastriano pennsylvania is a republican nominee for governor in pennsylvania. >> to me, as i watched that unfold and saw the clip of judge lunatic on this. to me the most important parts of this were actually not donald trump were actually donald trump and his allies and supporters and i think a lot of people have missed that. what he's basically saying every single republican running that is part of the big lie or is an election denialism or doesn't want to do anything to save democracy, is a clear and present danger to the country. it's doug mastriano in pennsylvania, it's the new secretary of state candidate in nevada, it's about to be secretary of state candidate and governor in arizona. it is the governor, gop can internal candidate in michigan, the secretary of state candidate in michigan. as a republican. the republican candidate for
attorney general of michigan. it's all throughout the country. in my fear is, we've barely got through and preserved our democracy in 2020, barely. and it was because of all of those pillars that i mentioned that preserved our democracy and make sure all the votes were counted and make sure the will of the people it was in step. the republicans have figured out in a concerted way if they knock down those pillars, that 2024 becomes a layup for them. they basically own the refs and the system. they can do what they want. and that's my fear, that's why i have said every time we do this, we say this is the most important election. i think in my lifetime of being involved in politics in some way since 1976, this year is the most important election because if the democrats lose those races in those election deniers are able to win those races and knock the pillars down, we basically don't have a functional democracy in 2024. >> and you know, at the washington post today dan
vaults has a great column writing obnoxious judge lieu ticks visual testimony but his written testimony. and just the starkness in the warning that he's delivering to the country. folks should read that. jennifer, let's talk about new mexico. because there are county commissioners there who are refusing to certify election results because they don't trust voting machines. now, things to a court order, the results have been certified. but how alarming is it that the commissioners took that action in the first place? >> it's shocking. and addition to the threat to democracy, think about the party that would interest they are democracy to them. think about all those republican voters. what are they thinking? one of the people who are campaigning who are giving money to these candidates thinking? it's really a mess psychosis or a mass sort of revolt against
democracy. there may be people like donald trump who are so delusional that they believe that nonsense. but the rest of them are cynics, the rest of them are simply riding the wave so that they can stay in office. and they're doing it at the expense of the country, they're doing at the expense of our democracy. and i have a piece today up in the washington post that really talks about the democrats and the rest of the pro democracy movement need a game plan. they need to identify these people, particularly the people who are in a position to affect election returns and election counting. they need to identify these people the, need to call them out. republicans as well as democrats need to target these individuals. so voters know with these people believe in. sometimes people don't really know a lot about senate secretaries of state or attorney generals. they understand the threat and the democrats running against them have to target. they can't just make this a bygone issue and move on to other things like the economy. they have to identify these
people as the clear and present danger. so i certainly hope there is a bit more organization to target these people. particularly the ones who have control over who wins and who loses. >> and you know what, i'm glad you brought up your column, jennifer. it's a nice segue to the question that i have format. because in some republican primaries, jennifer talks about a game plan. but it seems like we have seen democrats cross over to vote for the most extreme candidate in the republican primaries, in the hopes of helping the democratic opponent in the general election. am i wrong and thinking that this could backfire? this is a risky game to play. >> it's already backfired. think of 2016. there was already democrats thought, if we can just get donald trump, it'll be a layup again. we'll just go through and it ends up, donald trump president of united states. i think it's a huge mistake. i think the sorts of logical of
voting that you think you can do by doing that, usually backfire in this. i think every person whether the republican independent or democrat should be supporting pro democracy candidates regardless of which primary they're voting in. even if you are electing somebody in nominating somebody that has a better chance of winning as a democrat, as a republican then might defeat a democrat. that's better for our country. that is much better for our country in this. and that's to me, we're going to wait on the attorney general and the justice department and all that and i hope they move and i hope they move fairly quickly in the aftermath of the hearings. in the end, jonathan, what's going to hold these people accountable is the only thing that's going to hold them is us. is november 8th, 149 days from now, is the only thing it's going to holds accountable. >> sophia, in the minute that we have left, let me have you listen to something brett hughes said on fox news earlier this week. we'll talk about it on the
other side. >> what strikes me about this, brandon, is if they succeed either by damaging him or staining him. such that he is either unable for legal or political reasons to run again, they might end up finding out that they've done the republican party a great service because i think a great many republicans think they can't win with trump at the head of the ticket again. they're afraid of his supporters and i want to come out against him directly. but they like him to go away. if the effect of this committee is to make his possible candidacy go away, i think a great many republicans would privately be very glad. >> so obviously, that spread hume, sophia, talking about republicans wanting donald trump to go away. what do you think about his analysis there? >> i think that spot on and if you listen to a clip of lindsey graham giving a speech this past week, he said out loud, i'm afraid of donald trump, we were afraid of donald trump but he made it like it was a good thing which i thought was
horrifying. because they're admitting out loud that they basically are being held hostage by this man and they don't have the courage and the spine like liz cheney or judge luttig to say something about it. so i think brett humans fought on, i think they want him to go away but they're not brave enough to make him go away and to hold him accountable. >> our poor country. sophia nelson, it will return later in the show. matthew dowd, jennifer reuben, thank you very much for coming on the sunday show. in a reminder to tune in on tuesday pre-special coverage of the next january 6th hearing at noon eastern, led by katie tyreek, andrew michelin hallie jackson. followed by a two hour recap special beginning at 8 pm eastern you see them all right there, right here on msnbc. the descendants of the enslaved community of monticello, the home of thomas jefferson, gathered for a juneteenth celebration this weekend. called ascendant. according to the thomas jefferson foundation, more than
600 families were enslaved on the sprawling grounds in charlottesville virginia. to share with life was like at monticello. >> experience of monticello is so much richer because it embraces all the complexities of this man. >> pour into the people around you. if you know the family stories, whoever you are, however old you are, pour into every listening. because that is the way things are kept and passed down. oral histories are so crucial. >> and to learn more about slavery and monticello and the oral history project, go to monticello, -- dot org. and coming up, african american descendants of another virginia community learn where their ancestors were enslaved. but there is a unique twist of the story. we'll tell you about it after the break. the break.
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made a startling discovery. their ancestors were once enslaved on that property. the name of the property was showers wood, and i travel there recently to talk with karen dixon ruch watch, about this incredible twist of fate. >> karen, growing up, what's did you think of this house? >> this house is within a mile of my mom's house, and this house we have never seen anyone outside. anyone in the yard. no vehicles. no lights on. and i often call it the scary house. >> the scary house, because nothing was happening here. >> nothing at all. >> and yet stuff was happening, because the grass was being mowed? >> yes! >> so then when did you see that the property was actually for sale? >> me and my mother were on our way to walmart. i pulled over, called the real estate agent, i was here looking at it within two days.
>> entire family looking for a big place for family celebrations. close yet to large family. >> yes. >> when did the mystery of this house start to unfold? >> the mystery of this house unfolded with one term. on the list of ages side, they shared a history of the house. and the name shawls which was included. once that name, charles woods, came out, the floodgates were open. i was able to retrieve several historical records and information regarding charles would. and the miller family name. >> and so the miller family name, is that what made you think, hold up, are we related? >> it did. it never came across my mind. not until i hands research and
found out that there was a miller plantation in charles woods, and that was where the millers were enslaved. and owned by david crenshaw miller and charles edward miller. >> so, through your research you find out that the house that your brother bought was connected to your family. >> yes. eventually we did, after months of research and digging up records and reaching out to a local historian. i asked her to some information on my parents, my grandparents, and possibly great grandparents. i do that, and within two months, she was back in contact with me with that one statement that i can never forget. >> and what was that statement? >> she, said karen, your great
great grandparents, they were enslaved here in charles would. >> the house that your brother purchased was where your great great -- >> grandparents. >> grandparents were enslaved. >> yes. >> at the quarters that are out there in the back. >> okay. this is -- >> whole family. >> whole family in one room in the whole family other on the opposite side. they have one shimmy with a shared fire fireplace, so there is a fireplace here as well as on the other side. >> and no plumbing? no indoor plumbing? >> no electric. no. this building is actually dated as being built prior to the 1800s, the late 1700s. when i look at this building, i can imagine someone cooking up
a parent food here in these rooms. >> and the ancillary benefit being heat. >> right. he. it's >> coming from the chimney as well. what's a feeling you get when you are here? >> i guess an overwhelming feeling when i am here, knowing that i won't know the relationship of the people that were here. i just know that they were miller's, and possibly my ancestors. i mean, i know my ancestors but i don't know exactly how related. but i do feel their presence here, oftentimes when i'm walking throughout the area. and also inside the house. i am just grateful to be at this point, in order to share their stories. >> noticing some of the records
that the millers owned 58 slaves, and also had 12 slave houses. this is one of those 12 slave houses. >> and i didn't mean to step on your emotion and your reaction there. but to talk about what is meant to find out that's piece of information, that the house that you had just bought was not just some tangential connection. you are literally from here. >> right. i often think about how they lived here, how they were treated. what is around here the day that they would have actually touched this will -- and knowing this information now, it is overwhelming with emotions on the past. whether my grace grandparents and their children, one of whom is my great grandmother sarah,
she was born, i believe, here in this plantation. because she was within 1 to 3 years old after the emancipation proclamation. so. it is overwhelming. >> i am just wondering, do you feel like this was meant to be? that's the ancestors made this happen? where are we right now? >> this is the millers enslaved cemetery. >> cemetery. and when you think of cemeteries you think of headstones with the names and the birth and death and everything. but not here. >> not here. all we have is simply a larger rock. with no name, no age, no date of birth. so at this point we don't know who is buried underneath those headstones. >> so there is that when there. there is one over there.
a little one. >> we don't know whether the actual size of the rock designates the age or whatnot, parent or child. we are clueless why. i >> how does it feel to know that your ancestors, this was their final resting place? >> it is. it makes me sad knowing they were placed here, always traveling past this graveside. never knew that they were actually burned here within the woods. my mom is 82 and she did not know about this place. i am almost 50. i never knew this place even existed. it is discouraging knowing that they were here, and that no one did anything about. it i am not sure who knew that it was here. but now that we know it is here, we have to do something about it. >> what does happen to you as a result of this house? >> yes. with the result of this house, there is a lot of things going
around in school districts and across the united states, as far as teaching about enslavement or how the past was. it was definitely a past. it is in this in the took place. so it is not this magical story that never happened. it involves people, peoples lives and families, we know for sure that some of those families where my family. and i don't want to see things under the rug like these things never existed, because they did exist. we are a product of this. >> thank you very very much for opening your home to us. >> you are welcome. >> be sure to check out the first annual juneteenth
celebration of the showers would estate from noon to 5 pm, today. with live music and african drum circles, food, enders and. more coming, up lgbtq pride month initiatives supported by some republicans, are now being outright blocked. i will be joined by one of the democrats are fighting back. when we come back. e comeac bk. welcome to your world. your why. what drives you? what do you want to leave behind? that's your why. it's your purpose, and we will work with you every step of the way to achieve it. you're pretty particular about keeping a healthy body. what goes on it. usually. and in it. mostly.
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...and you like it. you get bigger... ...badder... ...faster. ♪ you can never have too much of a good thing... and power is a very good thing. ♪ this is 2022. it is an election year. and instead you choose to exploit divisiveness and disregard this evolution. you call people groomers, still in 2022, but it does not solve your problems. you push don't say gay, but it is not solve your problem. they produced drag queens, only in 2022, but it does not solve your problems. they pray on people's fears. but it does not solve your problem. we instead choose inclusion. we choose love. we choose respect.
we choose human dignity. we choose pride. that was that was miss kim say senator german losses for four response of republicans in the state rejected a resolution to declare june lgbtq pride month even though they passed an identical resolution last year. call army and surprised. this latest move from michigan republicans comes amid a wave of anti lgbtq campaigns in republican led states throughout the country. joining me now is state senator jeremy moss of michigan. senator moss, thank you for coming to the sunday show. >> thank you for having me on. >> so what's going on in michigan as part of a larger campaign that's going beyond the culture wars, as you know, but folks watching probably don't know. a 16-year-old transgender boy in texas attempted suicide the same day governor abbott ordered state agencies to investigate parents who affirm
their transient or kids. do you think folks understand the gravity of what's happening? >> i hope that they will understand the gravity that's happening here in this country. these are partisan, heady, political fights. picked by republicans, only in an election year so they can get ahead at the polls. but it has rod or dangerous implications all around our community. and so we are a target again this year and we have to be on guard as we already are on guard for our entire lives. so while they choose these petty battles in an election year, just to divide, just to pray on voters fears. it has dangerous implications of the community at large. >> some pride events have been canceled because of a surge in anti lgbtq threats by right-wing experience. what do you say to your constituents who might be afraid to celebrate pride month? >> well, so, pride month is
supposed to be a celebration. pragmatist supposed to be a celebration of love, of living authentically and being who you are. but we also have to remember that the very first pride was the anniversary, the one year anniversary of stonewall. the very first pride was a liberation. a rebellion against harassment and bullying, against our community. and so i think we have to turn this pride month back to our roots of activism. because we're not going to be able to get ahead and beyond that level playing field with everybody else if we just sit back and take these attacks. we have to be out there, visible, because we cannot let them define us. we have to be visible so that everyone can see where the vibrant and strong community we are. so this is a pride month celebration. but it also has to be a pride month of action to. >> you know, part of your speech, you told people in your state that republican leadership has nothing to offer them.
how do you reach those people who've been fed misinformation about the gay agenda, what is the agenda? >> right, and i am very frustrated by these attacks against our community. because we are not the cause of these crises that we're facing around the country. republicans are the ones that are blocking attempts to go after price gouging, not us. republicans are blocking these attempts on moving forward with common sense gun reform, not us. there were no drag queens marching in charlottesville. the where no drag queens storming the capital on january six trying to prevent the counting of a free and fair election. track cleans about the crisis of our times and so i think that is something that we have to be more forceful with that work immunity that certainly is here and vibrant and celebrates who we are. but we're also part of the broader community. trying to push forward on real
solutions that impact all communities here in the state of michigan. we are not because of the problems that people are facing. >> one more question before i let you go, enjoy your sunday. do you think more democrats across the board need to stand up for lgbtq americans with the authenticity and passion that you have displayed? >> absolutely. and the reality is that we're a small community, there aren't that many of us. so we depend on allies in the majority community to stand up with us and for us as well. you know, my colleague, mallory mcmorrow opened the door to the straight white christian suburban mom to come and join us. so this is another invitation for those who are not in our community but are frustrated with this level of hate that prevents real solutions for moving forward to join us, combat this hate and join us on real solutions that impact real people in this country. >> you know, you mentioned your
colleague, mallory mcmorrow, and i want t-72 thank senator mcmorrow for introducing me to you and showing me that speech that you gave. michigan state senator jeremy mott, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> thanks. >> and a reminder to tune in next sunday as a camp of pride month by sitting down with pioneering lgbtq+ members of stage and screen. including luverne cox, harvey fire's teen, wilson cruz, and tony award winning playwright michael are jackson. watch pride of stationed screen, next sunday at 10 pm eastern on msnbc and streaming on peacock. coming up, a member of the january 6th committee lays out what they want to hear from the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. i have a super panel ready to talk about it next. tock is bubbling in the pot ♪ ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪
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that we need change in this country. because if we don't learn from this, then what are we? >> thank you for being here. thank you for your time. for your heart, your voice and we need a lot of that. lot of that. remember that game, six degrees account bacon? that's what the january six committee is playing except instead of a footloose teenager, it's ginni thomas, wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. she keeps popping up. well, the january six committee now wants to get in on the game and question her. listen to committee member congressman adam schiff on cnn this morning. >> we want to know what's she
knows what. hurt involvement was in this plot to overturn the election. she has said that she is willing to come in and have a voluntarily, we're glad to hear that. really anyone with pardon information, we want to hear from. and so we have a range of questions to ask her. obviously, i think the committee will be interested in other things where this was discussed with justice thomas given that he was rolling on cases impacting whether we will get some of this information. >> oh boy. joining me now, msnbc political contributor and political's white house correspondent, eugene daniels. msnbc political analyst writer at large from the bulwark and author of the forthcoming book why we did it. tim miller. and wait what's? is all of this, back with me is -- sophia nelson. she's the author of the book, the one you need. thank you all very much for being here. okay, let's just go around the table. and just answer the simple question. eugene, since you're here with
me. is she anytime us going to show up? >> it's hard to see -- feels very risky for a lot of reasons. it's the supreme court justice. but she says she told the daily carl that she's going to come talk to them and tell them and clear things up that i think the way she put it. and i think all of us have a lot of questions that need answering. >> sophia. >> is she gonna show up? >> -- i think that she will show up because i think the chimney is one of those true believers, that's what i will call her. and she believes there is righteousness in her cause and that she's done nothing wrong. and that she's doing her patriotic duty. and i think she will express that the committee, i think the people that showed up on that day actually believe or the planners of the day, i should say, the coup plotters if i can call them that. i think they believe that what they did was right, just and right, and i think she absolutely is going to show up and try to clear that out for
everybody. >> tim, if she shows up, if ginni thomas shows up. is sophia, well, just into the question. is she going to show up? >> [laughs] i'm going to defer to sophie's expertise on ginni thomas. we'll see, i think you certainly is a true believer. i was interested in congressman schiff's comment about justice thomas. i've been sitting here wondering why democrats and the oversight in the house aren't pushing to look into what clarence thomas knew about this. i think that at least mary some of estimation. generally speaking, i would not hold someone responsible for the actions of their spouse. but when your a supreme court justice and your spouse is plotting a coup, would argue all talking about the dinner table? it seems like not the weather in the seems like a talking about which any thomas has been doing all day and she seems pretty singularly focused on keeping don trump in power against will the people.
so i do think that the committee should add minimum at least explore attorney couldn't answer with her conversations were with justice thomas. >> tim, that is an excellent point. what are they talking about at that dinner table? so let's talk about congressman jamie raskin who was on meet the press. and he was asked about donald trump. and his lashing out at the select committee. watch. >> president trump lashed out the committee and lashed out and vice president pence. just in the last 48 hours. in essentially, it's not change his view. he calls mike pence week, i think he called him a conveyor belt. this public admission that he essentially he wanted continues up pulling out all this evidence, is that, is he confessing? >> he's officially saying yeah i did and i'll do it again. which is what we've been contending all along.
that if you allow impunity for attempts unconstitutional seizures of power, which is what a coup is. then you are inviting it again in the future. >> sophia, what do you make of congressman raskin's, what he said there on meet the press? >> well, congressman raskin was my constitutional law professor at law school at american university. so he's amazing and i think he's spot on. but let me ask the question that i keep asking every day on twitter. which is why is donald j trump still walking around, still giving speeches when we now have had laid out for us in clear and plain view, criminal activity, seditious conspiracy. why are we not arresting these people, charging these people, including members of congress by the way who aided and abetted this -- jonathan, at the end of the day, i'm for it with the trump said
this and trump won on, i don't care what trump thinks. i don't care what trump does. would i care about is trumping held accountable for trying to overthrow american democracy in front of the full view of the world. and if we don't hold him accountable, we're going to deserve what we get because this will happen again and the next time, they might be successful. >> eugene, i think one of the >> sip the team over that's a fierce dropping. >> fruit some fresh tea there. >> you know, one of the most interesting things about this is that we watched on trump pressured mike pence alive and in color on that day. it wasn't a question of whether or not that happened. and so everyone who was looking into this already knew that that was the case. we knew that mike pence was getting pressured by the president himself and his allies and that we're working to overturn the rule of the american people. and so now, i've talked a lot of democrats about this and their concerns about no kind of
-- not gonna be any political political trump, we've seen that, very clear. but any kind of legal blowback and whether or not the justice department under merrick garland is going to do something after these hearings and during their own investigation. and they're not feelings are hopeful that that's going to see that. because they know that merrick garland is trying to see unplug of size, someone who is not a part of that process. and trying to say above the frame. there's a concern about whether there's gonna be any rough occasions and then you have the concern, there's a political blow back, there's illegal blow back for some of these folks. including donald j trump. what does that say for the next time someone wants to do this because we're seeing, this is not stopping. and it's continuing. and it's a present danger to the state, democracy. >> and tim, in the less than a minute that we have left at this part of the conversation. let me ask you a question i asked matthew dowd. about the fact that there are democrats who if they can participating in the republican primary and voting for the most outlandish maga loving big ally
hugging republican in the hopes of helping the democratic component in november. is that a strategy that could come back to bite them in the behind? >> i don't love it, jonathan. i think at minimum, it's bad karma. and look, we don't, this economy, we don't know how bad the wave is going to be a november. i'm very concerned that candidates that in any other cycle, especially for a lower offices for voters something that coastal tension to their particular issues. who are extremely radical, where anti democratic, are going to get washed into office this time. and so i think that i was more encourage actually by the democrats who did a good deed in georgia and crossed over to vote for brad raffensperger who help protect our democracy last time to play the fact that he's pretty conservative republican. so i don't think democrats need to do that in every case. but boy, i don't love the karma of trying to push the most extreme possible candidate to
win a primary. i think we live through that in 2015 and 2016. we saw the results. i don't think we should be playing with fire. >> as matthew dowd said, earlier in this hour, that folks should be voting for the pro democracy candidate regardless of party affiliation. stay with us as we continue this conversation after the break but first programming note for tonight. be sure to tune in at 10 pm eastern to watch the culture is black women. tiffany cross and julia reed engage an honest, promoting dinner conversation in harlem with black female true lasers who are shaping america's culture. that's ten, that's tonight at 10 pm eastern, right here on embassy and streaming on peacock. peacock. wayfair has everything i need
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that shows that six in ten americans believe donald trump should be charged in his role in the january 6th attack on the u.s. capital. pull everybody back up because i want to see who -- sofia. is that you ringing? who's ringing? somebody's phone is ringing. they're doing tv, hang-up! sophia, what do you make of those numbers, six in ten americans went on from charged. >> >> listen, the american people are smart and when you give them information that's just fact based and truth based, they get it. that's why a certain network did not want to show the hearings when they saw 20 million people tuned in, they started showing the hearings which must of been embarrassing because they were starring in the hearings. and at the end of the day, this is going to become more and more i think pronounce. you're gonna see that number go up because people with common sense, jonathan, don't want
these types of people in charge of the government. or being aided and abetted by the government. they wanted to kill the vice president. and i think that really resonated with a lot of people i talked to who were even trump supporters. that they were disgusted by the desire to kill the vice president or have him harmed. i think that was a turning moment for a lot of people. >> whoever that was who was calling, not to him off our panel. hopefully we'll be able to get him back. [laughs] , eugene, what do you make of that? my aunt gloria was on earlier and i asked her what she thinks and she was like yeah. >> my grandmother with agree. i don't know that they're the target demographic for they're talking about here. >> but they're part of the six in ten americans. >> exactly, and i think what's happening with a lot of us who've been thing a lot of attention to this for a long time weren't sure of is with these hearings. one, it would be will watch, and we're seeing that people actively washing. especially that prime time, the first one, at 20 million people i think. elise 20 million people.
but then, will it matter? not just for his free, we know that most for history, making sure that we correct the record after the whitewashing from fox news and donald trump and his allies. but will it actually matter to how people feel about the country in this moment. and i think it is completely different to hear us talk about the things that we've seen reported. but when you have bill barr up there are saying i told the president this was untrue, it was whack-a-mole trying to get them to stop doing this. and you hear folks talking about kind of the first moment or donald trump decided that he should go out in front of the american people and say that he wanted -- because rudy giuliani according to the committee was inebriated. all of these different types of things hit a little different for the american people as are seeing it. so that means that they're gonna be thinking about it a little bit differently. >> did they use the word inebriated or the drunk? >> they said inebriated. [laughs] >> did i hear right, yes there is tim.
so the question is about the abc news assist poll. six in ten americans think that donald trump should be charged with a crime for his role in this january 6th attack on the capital just would love your thoughts. >> first, i was gonna ask for father's day pass on that phone call, that was my husband checking in with my child upstairs. so i hope you just give me one pass on that. look, i don't want to just give everybody down after an exciting poll number here. but this just feels like an outlier to me. i do think that there is an increasing sense among democrats that donald trump should be charged. i think even independence, there is a small swath of very small, three, 5% swat republicans were ready to move on. i think that if you take a broader scope at what's happening in the polls right now, what you're hearing from voters is just real unhappiness with was at the top of the
republican party, what's the tampa democratic party will show biden. and so i think that folks are ready to move on. and at this poll is just a reflection of that. of people kind of essentially voting and saying look, we need to move on from this craziness of donald trump. >> and you know, a tim, i'm looking at the story about the poll and it's like 91% of democrats believe that he should be charged. but only 19% of republicans, as we keep going down, a majority of republicans do not agree. we are out of time. tim, happy father's day. >> thank you. >> tim miller, eugene daniels, sofia nelson, thank you all very much for coming to the sunday show. we'll be right back. right back. is the planning effect. this is how it feels to have a dedicated fidelity advisor looking at your full financial picture. this is what it's like to have a comprehensive wealth plan
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the sunday show i will be back next sunday at 10 am eastern. but stay tuned because my friend alex witt has the latest. hey alex. >> hey, you. and i just want to say, as both of us because you've lost our fathers, we still think of them on fathers day. i know your dad would be really proud of whatever you're doing. because iraq. and you bring it every single sunday. so, how before this day in memory of your father to. >> thanks, alex.
>> a very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome back to alex with reports. we begin on capitol hill, a new reaction this hour to the january six investigations. as a select period compares for more hearings this week, they are scheduled for tuesdays and thursdays. the time for tuesday's hearings, donald trump their allies put on state officials to overturn the election results. 16 committee member congressman jamie raskin today is summarizing some of the key takeaways from this past week's hearing. >> donald trump knew the big lie was a big lie. he used him also as a big shake down, and a rip off of his supporters, to keep money rolling in. usually when the candidate is over and somebody has lost, it is very difficult to raise money. but they raised more than two point $3 million based on that lie. >> meanwhile, new polling from
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