thank you so much for being with us. i will be back in two short hours with all my colleagues, the entire msnbc primetime lineup for our recap. right now, though, our coverage continues on "the beat" with ari melber, who will also be back in two hours. >> i'll see you soon. thank you so much. welcome to "the beat." i am ari melber. we have a special show, including a report we have been working on, that a top

republican tried to ambush and hand fraudulent electors to mike pence on january 6th. those stories and reports are coming up. but after a hearing like today's we begin with something more fundamental than a legal breakdown, and more powerful, perhaps, than meticulously going through the evidence, though that also matters. right now we begin with this. what millions of americans saw and heard today from the top republican leader out of arizona in plain, serious, and stern testimony about the choices officials have to make, the tests that trump posed, tests that, by the way, many republicans have fail bid cowering to a would be autocrat by minimizing threats of violence and coups, by only speak out late, if at all. some have walked back from some of those public humiliations. others just live in them. but today's testimony by this republican here offers a view of what it looks like to stand up.

>> i said, look, you are asking me to do something that is counter to my oath that i swore to the constitution to uphold it, and i also swore to the constitution and the laws of the state of arizona. anything that would say to me, you have a doubt, deny your oath, i will not do that. it is a tenet of my faith that the constitution is divinely inspired, my most basic foundational beliefs. and so for me to did that because somebody just asked me to ask foreign to my very being. i will not do it. >> republican speaker of the

arizona house rusty bowers, what he did, drawing threats and worse. >> public pressure on state officials often grew dangerous in the lead up to january 6th. >> let us in! let us in! >> light the whole [ bleep ] on fire. >> what are we going to do besides kill him? although we should not do that. i'm not advising that, but i mean, what else can you do, right? >> across today's hearings, the people who testified were public servants who are usually out of view. a poll worker. state election staffer, secretary of state. three of those witnesses were elected republicans. all followed the law instead of the demands and pressure to break it. some paying very high prices. >> they have had video panel trucks with videos a me proclaiming me to be a pedophile and a pervert and a corrupt

politician. >> wishing death upon me, telling me that, you know, i'll be in jail with my mother and saying things like, be glad it's 2020 and not 1920. >> i was getting texts all over the country, and then eventually my wife starting getting texts, and hers typically came in as sexualized texts which were disgusting. >> you committed treason, may god have mercy on your soul work a slowly twisting noose, and for lack of a better word, i lost it. >> we begin with my panelists here today, former watergate prosecutor nick akerman and columnist michelle goldberg. welcome. great to have you in person. michelle i start not with the law or pieces of evidence, which we can get to, but for something this big, this important, what it meant to have americans hear those people and their courage.

>> i think that you saw the extent to which donald trump and his supporters has been terrorizing anyone, or really terrorized anyone who tried to stand in the way of his coup plot. some of the most powerful testimony that i didn't see recapped there by ruby freedman, it was pretaped. she talk about losing her name. she talk about how she didn't want to go by her name anymore. she felt like her reputation had been destroyed. she was constantly afraid to be out in public, which also her daughter testified about. and i also think that the testimony about these republicans being terrorized, including -- i believe it was brad raffensperger said somebody broke into his daughter-in-law's home. i think we need to put that into the context of the ad a republican candidate in missouri

just put out where he kind of called for republicans in name only, so people who aren't sufficiently loyal to donald trump, he called for death squads to go to their homes and terrorize them, and in the context i think of this broader campaign of terror. >> nick, when you look at this stacked against, of course, the precedent of watergate hearings, where does today's stack up for you? >> comparing it to watergate you almost can't do it. >> i just did it. >> you did it -- >> it was wrong and i'm sorry, but i did it. >> but it was different, because it wasn't at scripted as this is. i mean, this was really put together like a summation in a trial. they didn't have anybody there who sort of pushed trump's point of view. you had people on the senate select committee that were defenders of richard nixon. you didn't have that here. but what really struck me on speaker bowers is that he was totally fact based. of all the stuff we've heard about, the kind of fake news,

fake facts -- he kept demanding, where's the evidence? show me the evidence. and the best that rudy giuliani could do was say, well, i've got some theories, but i don't have real evidence. i mean, it almost reminded me of barry goldwater. maybe it's because they're both from arizona and both kind of look the same a little it. but it was barry goldwater that based on the facts and tapes in watergate took the republican delegation to the oval office to richard nixen and basically told them the jig was up, it's time to resign. and it was the same kind of common sense, no nonsense dedication to the constitution that i saw coming out today. >> yeah, as you say, it was sort of -- it was old school and centaurian at times, and that may be compelling as the human side of it. you mentioned giuliani, and brings us to a key rebounded of evidence today, how this coup plot demanded state level officials betrade their oaths to

steal the election. several testify about trump's request, which flatly violated the law. it was not an isolated part of the plan, it was integral. >> the president and his lawyers start aid peering before state legislators, urging them to give their electoral votes to trump, even though he lost the popular vote. these efforts also involved targeting outreach to state legislators. brian cutler received daily voicemails from trump's people in november. >> that presentation recounting the push by trump lawyer rudy giuliani to get people to join the increasingly desperate plot. he did not have many takers. top republicans in position of power said no. when he started screening his calls entirely. they wanted no part of a possibly illegal plot by a soon to be ex president. this is where things at times get a bit absurd. it kind of echos the song "ex calling" about screening calls from an ex. because giuliani represented the

ex-president of 2021, soon to be ex-president. as the song goes, i can hear my ex calling. don't know why my ex calling. why the heck the ex calling? the artist black recount his solution, put the phone on -- but apparently what they kept going to religion. and their soon to be defeated ex president. today congress shared the receipts, which sounded like some pretty needy unreturned voicemails. >> mr. speaker, this is rudy giuliani and jenna ellis. we're calling to you together because we'd like to discuss obviously the election. hey, brian, it's rudy. i really have something important to call to our attention. that i think really changes things. i understand that you don't want to talk to me now. i just want to bring some facts to your attention and talk to you as a fellow republican. >> michelle, there are some

calls you just don't take. >> i really think the squalid and pathetic desperation shouldn't overshadow just how concerted this was. that's one of the takeaways from today's hearing is that this wasn't just flailing and -- it was flail but there was a theory of the case behind it. they had a plan they were trying, however infectually to execute, and that plan involved getting all of these state legislators to throw out the votes of their people. the reason that's important is because even though it didn't succeed, again, it shows why the riot on january 6th was sort of pursuant to a bigger scheme. and also how such a scheme could exceed in the future if the sort of people -- the sort of republicans we saw testifying today are driven out of their

positions and replaced. >> i think michelle's on the money. if you compare speaker bower's testimony and look at the tape recording that donald trump in this conversation he had with brad raffensperger, all the elements were there. all the things speaker bower talked about, whether it was the idea that dead people were voting, that there were illegal immigrants voting. oh, by the way, you're republican, we're all republicans. let's go along with the program. all of the same statements, it's almost like he took the same playbook and probably did it to officials in all the other battleground states. >> well, what comes through is it's what he was spending all day doing. i don't know if there's time to be commander in chief or govern, which is one of the issue as well, it's not just a criminal level issue. but yeah, let's take a look here that that call -- we've aired some of this before, the familiar demand for massive voter fraud, and listen to how trump's irate tone builds as the

call goes on. >> so look, all i want to do is this -- i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. why wouldn't you want to find the right answer, brad, instead of keep saying that the numbers are right? so, look, can you get together tomorrow -- brad, we just want to truth. it's simple. and the truth, the real truth is i won by 400,000 votes at least. so what are we going to do here, folks? i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. >> to me, this is the preview of what we're going to see from an indictment in georgia of donald trump. this is the evidence. it's the tapes. you've got two terrific witnesses, brad raffensperger, who testified today, who's going to make an excellent witness, and you've also got the governor who's going to be able to testify that donald trump came in and asked him to desertfy the

election after he certified it. and to call a special session of the georgia legislature so they could put in new electors. you put that package together with everything that the january 6th committee has come up with, you've got a pretty compelling case for a three-year felony in georgia that could charge donald trump with soliciting election fraud. i mean, prosecutors love tapes, and when you've got a defendant on tape andu got lots of corroborating other evidence of witnesses who basically will obliterate any kind of defense that trump can possibly raise on his statements on that tape, i really think this is what's going to bring him down. >> michelle, that dove tails back -- whatever the prosecutors choose to do or not do, and again, that's what these hearings are about. i mean, the specific situation of a president who may have illegally tried overthrough an election is different than other cases, but in other cases we

know the public environment can matter. the public facts can matter. the public sense of something terrible happened and was not addressed can affect the government. i'm not suggesting we shouldn't have up and down political voting and pressure on prosecutors. they're supposed to follow the facts. but where do the facts come from? we know doj had been request and are working out how they're going to get over the evidence, because apparent i they have things the doj doesn't have. >> one of the things they're investigating is the fake electors plan, that they were going to somehow substitute for the real ones. there were some people we didn't realize before today were implicated in that plan. there was the text from someone in senator ron johnson's office saying he wanted to give them directly to make pence. >> we have more on that. what did you think when you heard that? >> again, i think ron johnson -- i don't know why the doj hasn't

subpoenaed him yet, because he's -- i think he has now said that he had nothing do with that, in which case you should obviously have fired the staffer who was, according to him, acting on his own, because i don't think staffers usually say that they want to give documents to the vice president without their boss' signoff. >> i would agree with that. when i worked in the senate and having covered it, if you are the number one aide to a senator, and in the senator's naem you're dealing with the white house about something normal, it goes through the senator. if it's abnormal and potentially illegal, it's definitely coming from the senator. >> i would also say, i wonder where the subpoenas are for ronna mcdaniel. it was brief, but she said the rnc was helping with the fake elector plan, but it was really the trump campaign taking a lead on it. i think one thing we should know is, what was the nature of the health of the rnc? >> i've got to fit in a break,

but both of those issues are important. we have more on pence coming up and, this was a really important start to the program, and again, i'm sorry about the comparison i made. >> that's okay. but there's comparisons that can be made, so don't worry about it. >> i may be the first person to compare to it watergate. i thought it was cliche. kidding. making fun of myself. good to see both of you. coming up, the last-ditch attempt to hand deliver that slate of fraudulent electors we were just discussing to pence, our breakdown on that next. plus, the discussion that the rnc got this direct request for help from donald trump. and there's new footage inside the trump white house, and when will you see it? all that coming up. you see it? all that coming up breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition... ...or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more thacribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia,

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we begin our coverage with some of that human and emotional side of today's testimony, and it was potent. there's also new evidence, which we turn to right now, including something that may only be slowly sinking in regarding the repeated efforts to sabotage the january 6th certification, which was further evidence of how real and tangible the coup plot was and continued to be, how close it came to being a reality. we were discussing this briefly just before the break. the new headline is that even after the lawyers and mike pence rejected trump's illegal order demanding the steal the election through some sort of magic certification. on the day of the planned certification, a top republican with access to the trump white house was pushing still, to secretly jam pence we fraudulent document to sabotage the certification, and the evidence is in writing. and it portends that kind of thwarted ambush, because the pitch first came in as a mystery

plan. senator ron johnson had these papers that we now know involve some thwarted election fraud. he has the papers in hand, and the aide wants to range for the senator to get frit the senator's hand to pence's hand. this is happening all in the key period right up to the certification. it's the day of the 6th, before the attack. and the aide texts senator johnson needs to hand something to the vice president, please. so, you could think of this as, like, hey, we just need to give something to the veep before we finish up this whole election certification thing, but it needs to be right now. it's justingsome. we don't really want to tell you what it is. that's the weird mood of this text. now let's go back into the evidence released today. the aide for the vice president asks what it was, perhaps well aware of these plots. and then the senate staffer admits that it's the alternate slate of electors. and you get the response in --

do not give that to him. you have a republican senator basically in on what sounds like election fraud up to the last moment trying to put it in pence's hand, trying to ambush or jam him during the actual certification procedure. it's damning evidence, and this is stuff we can put together that gives us a greater understanding of what we had at the time because of the records. so it's exactly 12:37 p.m. on january 6th that this text is coming in. you can see this is pence entering the capitol around at the same time our cameras archive says this happened just about 20 minutes later. you may remember where you were that day. this is off the trail, and yet the republican senator you see on the left side of your screen, his top aide is trying the get things off the rail even worse than what actually occurred at least inside the senate among elected officials, to say nothing of the violent

insurrection which interrupted the certification. the republican senator acting on a coup plot, all this after they knew it was illegal. >> did you hear the white house counsel's office say that this plan to have alternate electors meet and cast votes for donald trump in states that he had lost was not legally sound? >> yes, sir. it was mr. meadows, mr. giuliani, and mr. giuliani's associates. >> today also had evidence of how even trump's own fans, volunteers, and die-hards reached a point of what in the law is called consciousness of guilt, seeking what's called indemnification, meaning they would be helped if they were sued or worse, charged with something by the attorney general or someone else. that's basically a trump die-hard showing in realtime they know what they're doing might get them indicted. and a campaign lawyer in the middle of all this testifying how, as it stacked up and it was

clear what was really coming down the pike, then this die hard trump supporter -- mind you, this is after the race has been called. trump is the official loser of the election. everyone's getting ready for the transition out here in reality land, and this person had kept fighting on the theory that, yes, you could file some lawful cases. and that's fine. and then this person, not a famous person, just someone else inside trump land testifying about how that's when he realized he needed out. >> i just remember -- i either replayed or called somebody saying, unless we have litigate pending in these states i don't think there's appropriatele i got into a little bit of back and forth. i think it was with ken cheesebro where i said, you just get after it. i'm out. >> i'm out. that's a die-hard trump lawyer who was willing to go down every road, every case, including all

of giuliani's stinking loser cases, but he's out. so, we're going to get into it. i have our shortest break of the hour. one minute. i'm joined by u.s. attorney michael moore and libby casey in a minute. d libby casey in a minute what do you want to give back? what do you want to be remembered for? that's your why. it's your purpose, and we will work with you every step of the way to achieve it. at pnc private bank, we'll help you take care of the how. so tell us - what's your why? ♪♪ ♪ got my hair got my head ♪ so tell us - what's your why? introducing new one a day multi+. a complete multivitamin plus an extra boost of support for your immunity, brain, and hair, skin & nails. new one a day multi+. we got the house! you did!

pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. >> we are back with the former u.s. attorney for the state of georgia, michael j. moore, he was appointed by president obama for central georgia. served in a key part in our georgia coverage here and today has insights on our questions around voter and elector fraud and all of that plotting. so we're happy to have him as a guest and expert, and "washington post" reporter libby casey with a view on what it means beyond the law. welcome to both of you. we just walked through some of that really fascinating and pretty damning information that showed as pence was walking in to the proceeding that day -- we have that footage. right around the same time, within the same half hour,

senator johnson was still through an aide trying to ambush him with what would appear to be a fraudulent document for the purposes, michael, of submitting that for a government proceeding regarding an election. i'm speaking this way deliberately, because mr. johnson has the freedom to lie in public. he even has the freedom to lie on the senate floor if he chooses. but when you start submitting false documents to the goth government, you tend to cross a legal line. >> i'm glad to be with you both. clearly senator johnson is one to evoke those freedoms as we've seen over the past year. any time you create a document, try to submit a forged document especially in furtherance of a conspiracy to undermine a federal election, you've got problems. and that's essentially where we are. and to whether we talk about it from the state investigations that may occur or whether we

look at it from a larger doj investigation that may very well be under way, we just don't know given the secrecy that surrounds the efforts by the attorney general of the united states in these types of cases, investigations, i think it's going to come into play. these texts, these realtime messages are damning if you think about it on a much more basic level. you think about a drug transaction and you've got somebody controlling the drug distribution enterprise, the prosecutor gets messages on the drug runners, hey, so and so told me to bring "x" amount of dope to such and such address, that's what you have here is that type of information. you've got realtime statements by people who were involved, and it also obviously leads you to other witnesses, some of the it being members of the vice president's staff. >> yeah, no, you lay it out there. before i bring in libby, just staying with you on the law,

"washington post's" coverage about the fraudulent electors plots in georgia, quote, your duties are imperative to ensure the result, a win in georgia for president trump, they'll be -- unless we have complete secrecy and discretion. at what point does that move beyond vigorously contesting a election -- which i have been careful to remind people is allowed -- and saying the thing is over, you lost, and now you're trying to two into a proceeding -- i think people are familiar with perjury. you want to lie in front a court, not a great idea, but that's different. you go walk through the doors and suddenly it's perjury. do you see a case here against anyone involved in the elector plot as committing a crime, or do you not have enough evidence now? >> i don't know if we've got enough evidence yet. i think it could be forthcoming. the secrecy as peck is something

that's telling because that goes to somebody's motive or intent, maybe what their criminal intentions were, if they're moving forward. and again, you see that in most of these types of transactions and criminal cases. somebody says, be quiet. people can't keep their mouths shut. the secrecy adds a little bit of sexiness maybe to the facts of the case. doesn't make it a criminal violation for them to remain quiet. it's the steps, it's the substantial steps, the overt acts that may have been taken to further a conspiracy here to commit election fraud that may cause the biggest problem for the people involved in the fraud zone elector scheme. and you know, you're right, there's a legitimate way to challenge an election if you want to do it. they tried announcement rouse court cases around the country to did that. typically the republican party has been the party of the rule of law. unfortunately here, where the rule of law was against them, they decided the rules didn't

matter in large part. tried to sort of concoct a scheme to use fake documents and fake electors as if somehow that would legitimatize the efforts pushes down from the campaign. so this is part of a story. it's not the end of the story. and i think we're getting further into it. so i think it's an important building black. but if you're asking me to build a house, i'm saying we're down near the foundation, and we're going keep working as we get further up to make the structure, if in fact that's the criminal case. >> understood, and appreciate your precision there. that's the law. libby, the wider story that congress is telling today, it has legal elements. we heard republicans worry that trump was breaking the law and when they tapped out. but it was also a story today, the country, that really brought this back to the states. there's a reason why we have it cut up this way. the creators founded federalism, ya da ya da. but there's also the fact we're not in d.c. anymore today. we weren't talking about the

mumbo jumbo in the beltway. it was hearing from people around the country. i'm curious what you thought about the efficacy of that today? >> we see this moment in these texts where the senator johnson is trying to get the vice president to take this slate of fake electors from michigan and wisconsin. but what the committee showed today is it was part of a broader attempt to get fake electors certified. they sent them to the national -- they sent documents to the national archives, and the committee showed, these are the real ones. these are the fake ones. it seems half baked, but when you look at the big scope of this and you see it was this concerted effort that the trump campaign was doing -- targeting officials in each of these states, where they thought they could find sympathetic ears and overturn the election, this gets at this question that the committee's probing of who is ultimately responsible for a broader plot to overthrow a rightful election. and we saw the end results of

that when we saw how impactful it was on regular americans, patriotic americans' lives, whether they were civil servants working an election with their mom or whether they were officials trying to oversee how an election is run in a state like georgia. you know, rusty bowers, the very conservative republican speaker of arizona's statehouse, said he was pressured and told, just do it. let the courts sort it out. and imagine, ari, if these people had just done it and then waited to see where the chips would fall with the legal process, how much more convoluted and confusing and enraging it could have been for trump supporters, for example, who said, look, they're doing it. it's got to be legitimate -- >> to your point, libby, the courts are settling it out. there's a bunch of people who have been indicted. some convicted. the qanon shaman is doing 40 months. the courts are sorting it out, but it's never a great sign if

your campaign strategy that has turned into trying to recruit people to actively breaking the law. >> but what if, ari, they had overthrown the election and then let courts sort it out. how many people would believe this was actually an illegal election? it's frightening to think about how much more it could have fractured the american public as people tried to understand what was going on. >> you make an important point, which again goes to how the public understands this. you called it half-baked, right? >> well, if i was writing a plot i don't think hollywood would buy it, because when you see some of the characters and what they're doing, it seems unreal. but when you look at it in retrospect as the committee lays out point one, two, three, what we're looking at is an ark and, it's telling a story. can the committee show responsible parties like donald trump, like giuliani? >> when you take it together, you say, it was half baked and

wasn't completed, but you the country, understanding how close they were, what held the line, what they really wanted to do, because they can practice and come back, and we've talked about that and covered elections. i thought it was powerful this a began the hearing of an example of an indicted insurrectionist who was also on this local elections board women covered that, but i'm not sure as many meme would know about it as they do now, because they put that at the start of the hearing. to libby's point, michael, i want to play as well what we learned here today about trump directing one of the schemes an on a call, asking for help. rnc chair mcdaniel testifying any action she took was at his direct request. >> at the president's direct request, the witness assisted the campaign in coordinating the effort. >> what did the president say when he called you? >> he turn decide call over the mr. eastman who continued to talk about the importance of the

rnc helping the campaign gather these contingent electors in case any of the legal challenges that were ongoing changed the result. >> michael, your view of the import of that? and if donald trump comes along and says, who's john eastman? this guy went rogue. how much does it matter that so many people put them together acting in concert as his agent? >> again, i don't mean to be using so many crime analogies, but think about the godfather movie where he has this conciliry. there's one step removed between the godfather and the wrongful act. that's what's happened here. that's why trump gets his lawyer on the phone, which is a smart move if you think about it. i was pursuing legal remedies. i had my lawyer talk to him.

that was clever, if we gave him enough credit for thinking that far ahead. that's essentially what's happening. so it's great testimony, and it shows, in fact, that there's a real effort by trump to be the puppet master here moving things around. let me say one thing about sort of the pressure on the state people, because i think this is important and it goes to my -- you know, i think we do ourselves sort of a disservice if we make too much of a marter out of people who just did the right thing. i think about the secretary of state -- >> amen. >> here in georgia. and somehow we want to give him the nobel prize for something for doing what they were supposed to do. then we hear him talk about, my family was threatened. it was so much pressure. you can't raise a dog to fight and then complain because you get bit. this is just the route. this ongoing effort for the last four year of this tolerance and

refusal of people -- especially, you know, elected officials, republican elected officials -- to speak up and call out the wrong doing of trump. we shouldn't even be talk about a criminal case. we shouldn't have to be at this point because this should have been handled through in the meantime impeachment. we got people voting not to impeach him, but hiding behind capitol police officers on january 6th. it's unbelievable to think we're in this place. i don't shed a lot of tears for people who allowed the monster to grow and suddenly get scared of it at the end of the night, and that's whey see too much of what's going on here. i appreciate they did the right thing, but i don't think you can stand there and just pat people on the back and say, i support you, i support you, i support you, until suddenly you're on the receiving end of those bad -- >> i think you make an essential point, and it may come from a well intentioned police that looking for courage and heroes people are celebrating these individuals, and some of them did more than others.

having said that, you make an essential point, which is they have an oath, not betraying their oath is the minimum requirement. it is not the most amazing thing they could ever do. and for those who are part of a larger right-wing pro-trump movement that ran on an avowed violence, hate, bigotry, racism, mis-okay. ji and the dehumanization of people in a political quest, to turn around and say, you're hunting with wolves. you're trying to eat off wolves. you're trying to to be powerful off wolves, but the moment you don't feed him, which mike pence learned, they come to eat you. mike pence, no more loyal person to donald trump entire project than mike pence. one thing they disagree on in the beginning, which involved mike pence's criminal -- he determined he might end up in jail if he did that, so he

didn't do that, didn't speak out forcefully at the time, hasn't testified before the committee, but yes, he built his personal political ambition hunting with wolfs and then found they wanted to hang him, wanted to assassinate him, which we oppose. i'm over on time because i went long, too. finish your thought, michael. >> too many people don't find religion until it's their neck on the noose. mike pence came close to that base on the gallows we saw out there, and suddenly he realizes what kind of person he's been supporting over the years. i appreciate they -- their oath. that's why we elect them. >> i have to fit in a break. as promised. libby casey here for the reporting. michael j. moore with law, and i believe a little bit of ethics mixed in there, too. appreciate both of you. coming up, we get into never before seen footage and michael is back talking about why the hearings are breaking through. g.

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frmgts. are these insurrection hearings breaking through at all? two of the national witnesses were trending online above sports and entertainment, and on fox news there seems to be a tacit admission that some of the evidence is damning as they discuss the process. >> one of the things that stand outs to me, john, just in terms of the political landscape here is that, "a," there is no opposition questioning. it would lend a little bit more credibility to it to have someone in that room saying, yes, but what about this and what about that? >> what about that? well, now we turn to our regular segment here on the beat called "what about that?" kidding i made that up.

>> good to see you. >> as some viewers may recall, we turn to you on these things because you're a progressive advocate and writer, but you were also in television, which is one way people learn things. fox news is closed reality television. it has characters and a lot of things it pretends doesn't exist. that isn't working, that model, take look at what one of their conservative analysts said today. >> if you had a different perspective presented here, i don't think that would be helpful to president trump per se, because the evidence pretty clearly shows his unfitness. even suggests he may be guilty of a crime. >> look, it's extraordinary and amazing and they turned on a dime. the one thing that concerns me is potentially there's a blind alley. because the thing about the

january 6th committee that's so effective is the single minded focus on trump. if you're going for el jefe you have to take him out. the danger is they're legislate all the other republicans off the hook. >> you remind me of the wire, if you shoot at the king, you best not miss. we mean here factually legally shoot. but what do you mean by missing the rest, in a time where there's more direct appeals toward authoritarianism in america? >> the good thing is having 95% of the witnesses live and on tarng they're all republicans. these are the good republican who is stood up for the rule of law, the constitution, referred to god, older white men crying on television, really going hard for an twlatd -- idea that the

republicans who care for the constitution. what about the other republicans -- if you are too successful, if the hearings take trump out, does that create the space for someone like desantis, you know, who i was watching peers morgan on fox, who attacked december december, said there was blood on his hands last year. now he's saying this guy is trump without the trump nonsense, and i think that's a concerning thing. >> you're speaking to how that's playing out. then there's donald trump watching this on tv and as a tv guy thinking it's not going well. take a listen to trump. >> this committee was a bad decision not to have representation on that committee. that was a very, very foolish decision, because they try to pretend like they're legit, and only when you get into the inner workings, you say, what kind of thing is this? it's just awe one-sided

witch-hunt. >> this the thing about donald trump is he lies constantly and also blurts things that would appear to be his truth. his truth is this isn't going well, and that seems to be correct, and he just is discussing that and lamenting that the mccarthy strategy left them with just honest people on the committee, including some honest republicans. >> correct, and his analysis here is spot on. there's this weird feeling like when someone's not hammering a nail into your forehead anymore that these hearings have, when you're not hearing the bs, the noise, the what about-ism, and suddenly that's coming through with incredible clarity, and if i'm trump, i'm completely terrified, and there really aren't people standing up for him right now. the silence is remarkable. but the other thing that's not happening is thaw don't have other republicans who are saying, okay, we are stand with rusty bowers. we stand with this guy who said, i have had enough and i'm standing up for rule of law.

so you're in this weird power vacuum, weird in a weird power . we sometimes forgot that the right wing remembers not on the committee but they are not also to your point holding a lot of press conferences before and after. it's not like, okay, great, someone is prosecuting this case. it's not moral courage and that's why when you seep an eye on fox as a place when the conversations unfold, they are unfolding differently. you have a fox lawyer, a republican lawyer on fox today saying looks like he committed a crime, maybe. michael, thank you. we'll be right back with a preview of all the rumors and discussion of this new secret footage about trump and the white house coming out. footage about trump and the white house coming out okay. ges does okay we've still got the best moves you've ever seen good for you, but shingles doesn't care. because 1 in 3 people will get shingles, you need protection.

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