right to reproductive freedom, and so that criminalize people who are seeking care. so we have legislative options, and we're gonna do everything we can. >> georgia representative nikema williams, thank you very much for joining our coverage tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you, lawrence. >> nikema williams gets tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. the 11th hour >> how do they have the right to tell me or any woman what she can do with our body? >> it's not their choice -- this is not what they should be allowed to make for themselves. >> it's a slap in the face to women. i >> want nothing more than to be a mother in my lifetime, but i wanted to have it on my own terms. >> it feels like a betrayal. it feels like the country doesn't even love me. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening once again. i am stephanie ruhle.

tonight, protesters are out in the streets across the country, after the unprecedented supreme court decision, ending roe v. wade. 50 years after it became law. demonstrations have been growing ever since the ruling was announced this morning. five of the courts conservatives voted to overturn roe. samuel alito who is a draft opinion was leaked last month, wrote in his final decision that roe was egregiously wrong from the start. the ruling automatically clears the way for abortion bans in 13 states. at least six states have already put them into effect. and there are concerns about what this may mean for court decisions on contraception, and gay rights. justice clarence thomas says those should be up for review as well. we've got a lot to cover tonight, but i want to begin with my friend and colleague, morrow barrick, our nbc news reporter. she's on the ground, at the supreme court, all day long. morrow, you have been among the protesters for hours. what are they telling you? and what's their goal? >> stephanie, for nearly 12

hours, we saw this area ahead of the supreme court, completely filled, the start of the day with a tension between two groups of protesters, representing both sides of the arguments around abortion rights. and then, it grew to fill this entire street that i'm standing in front of, nearly more than 1000 people, i would say, here at one point. you see everyone kind of closing up shop here for the night. but as for the first couple of hours, we saw that initial protest from those who are opposed to abortion rights, who were elated, and celebrating, and happy. and after a few hours, they left. the streets were filled with hundreds and thousands of people who were the ones that were hoping that maybe we would see a compromise. they were maybe hoping that it away, we're expecting to see this decision come down, it's not what they got today. we saw tears of joy and despair. we had very emotional heavy conversations. and we will hear some of those

conversations, stephanie. >> a lot of things have been going through my mind, anger, deep sadness, and a desire to turn this around the. this is going through my mind. >> it's a rollercoaster emotion! it's completely utter joy that roe is overturned. >> i don't die between now and when we get legislation passed, which is untenable. >> we heard a lot of concern around that last statement you heard, about the access to a safe abortion, if women will get injured or die in these situations, because that's what they said they were fighting for. the right to a safe abortion. and the other conversation you heard, a 66-year-old woman, the first person you heard from there, she thought for abortion rights when she was in high school back in 1973. and now, she is frustrated that she has to do it again. overall, i spoke with a lot -- there's a lot of young people

here, mostly young people, in fact, who were devastated to see their rights stripped away, after thinking it was a given. and i asked them, do you think that something can be done in congress? do you have hope with what we are seeing in congress, given that we saw president biden call for congress to pass this into federal law for states to pass individualistic legislation? and one woman, sky, told me, she is 19 years old, and she said, would have seen in the political spectrum, and how divisive the country is right now, and reducing congress pass, with how slow they work, she said she doesn't have that hope right now. today, though, as they closed out the protest, just minutes before i came on the air, they said that they want to bring in their anger, frustration, and fury back on the streets tomorrow and to the ballot box in november. steph? >> to the ballot box in november. they want their voices heard. maura, thank you for being there. i know you've been out there for hours an hours. stay safe, and get some rest. with that, let's get smarter with the help of our lead off panel tonight. katie benner, justice department reported for the new york times.

professor melissa murray of nyu law school. she was a law clerk for sonia sotomayor on the federal bench before her nomination to the supreme court. and former u.s. attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. she is also a professor at the university of alabama school of law. ladies, thank you so much for being here tonight. i feel like i need to start this program, sort of with a collective deep breath there. there is so much to get through. melissa, when i think about the course of u.s. history, it's been a journey to expand rights, give more rights to more people, as the great american experiment has evolved? . was today the first time the court took away our right between been given. >> stephanie, first, let me thank you for having us all on, and for using women's voices to surface these questions today. it has not been the case on all platforms. but, yes, this is unprecedented. the court has typically chosen to expand the rights,

individuals, that's been the trajectory, certainly since the century. but in this rather unprecedented move, the court has retracted writes the tour extended almost 50 years ago. and again, this is not the end of it. justice thomas's concurrence was not signed by any other justice, but he has laid out a blueprint for inviting litigation that would challenge other rights, including rights to contraception, same-sex marriage, since executed, it will surely be taking by members of the conservative movement going forward. >> joyce, you joined our show to bring legal expertise. but you are also a dear friend of ours. and you are a woman and a mother. what is this like for you? what is on your mind? >> today has been one of those incredibly emotional days, especially, i think, for the four of us, because we are all women who are used to looking at issues, difficult issues, through the lens of the news and the need to have our communities, and that view and

public understand these issues. i think in some cases, were able to coax ourselves and our expertise, and we insulate ourself a little bit from the emotion. today that wasn't possible, because it's a decision that sends this message to women. it tells us we cannot be trusted with making decisions about what to do with our own bodies. and no matter how you address that up in law and history, that's a relegation of woman to second class citizens. we i think we all have the sense of loss today, the sense of pain. i suspect in the next few days and weeks, that will be replaced with a sense of purpose. but for all of us, it's a sad day, and i think it's appropriate for us to take a moment to acknowledge it, so, thank you, stephanie for giving us that opportunity. >> thank you. when you talk about that sense of loss, is there confusion out there, that the pro-abortion rights means being pro abortion?

isn't it really about a woman simply wanting control of her body? >> joyce? >> this issue has been politicized. the issue has been so politicized that it's become an issue, something that it's really not about. i think you are correct to say that this is about, who makes decisions about women's bodies. i know because i live in the deep south, where there are many people who are profoundly against abortion, that nonetheless, believed that decision should be preserved for women to make on her own. if anything else really does devalue women, as members of our society. >> katie, mark garland has promised to protect abortion rights. but, can he, given his job, and given the supreme court, what can he really do? >> so you're right. the justice ability to protect abortion is very limited in this case. but it can fight for the states

that have decided to preserve the right to choose. suit can help protect the states and the justice department can help protect women who leave their states their states have decided proportions illegal, to travel across state lines. also, the justice department and its long statement today, merrick garland says that it will also fight for women to have medical abortions to the extent that it can. now, one of the things that can do is, because the fda has said that certain medical abortion drugs are seeking -- it can fight cloth are promised upon the idea that these drugs are not safe. anything beyond that, you would have to look at the facts, in order to figure out how to move forward, and whether to move forward. please, keep in mind, for merrick garland, if he had his brothers, he will be remembered as attorney general who fought for civil rights above all else. and one of spoken with him, including on the record this march, he was clear that he feels that the right to an abortion is central to women's civil right, and he's extremely passionate about that. >> then, help me understand,

why wouldn't he have been doing this already? whether we hear from merrick garland or the white house, saying we are here to protect women's rights, this is a shock that this happened today, but it's not a surprise, since we saw that draft last month, melissa. why wouldn't the justice department or the white house be taking action ahead of this day? >> it's only been a month. and it's true that it's a more expeditious action could've been taken. but i think the white house has taken some steps that they can indeed, roundtable, experts on these issues. i was included in that conversation. i know they've been investigating whether or not the prospect of federal funds could be directed to allow individuals, federal employees, to take paid leave in order to seek reproductive care. so they've been examining a lot of avenues. but frankly, this is an administration that has some really difficult roads ahead. the president could certainly take executive action on this front. we saw president obama do this on the effort to put forward climate change. we also saw how that turned out. there is currently a case

pending in the supreme court right now, that has the seeds of the overturning, big parts of the administrative state, really limiting the effort to curb climate change, he cost those affecting, affective actors were viewed as overstepping. so, i think one of the things the administration is trying to weigh here is, if it takes steps under the authority of the executive branch, will that opened the door for other losses at the supreme court, on other avenues that they're not willing to seat right now? so there's a lot in the ballot, not being apologist here, in the administration anyway, but there's a lot of different things to weigh here. this is a really complicated and nuanced situation, both for abortion rights, but for other rights as well, they're also on the table. >> melissa, correct me if i'm wrong. it sure feels like clarence thomas is running the show here. and the fact that he's now raising things like, banning contraception, or same-sex marriage, are we in real danger of losing some of these other rights? >> well, justice thomas is the

longest serving member of the court. and he is really bided his time, and now he is seeing the seats of his conservative project in full power. yesterday was his birthday, and he gave himself the greatest gift of all, which was an opinion, basically, allowing the court to expand the scope of the second amendment, to permit public carrying of firearms. today, he got the opportunity to not only join the majority in overruling roe versus wade, but also to write separately, to say that in addition to overruling roe, the court should, in the future, reconsider the rights to same-sex marriage and contraception and the like. he is very much, i think, the leader of the conservative wing, along with justice alito. and the real question, i think, is what has happened to chief justice roberts, who did not join in overruling roe, or though he joined the majority opinion to uphold the mississippi law. he is, in many respects, the chief justice in name only at this conservative court. he has lost control of that lock. >> joyce, prosecutors in 29

states have set, they would not prosecute abortion care cases. on one hand, that seems like a big deal, but on the other hand, just because they say that, they don't have the law on their side. can anyone who live in those states trust that? that is just the prosecutor giving their word. >> this is an incredibly complicated issue, staff. but when it comes down to at bottom is that for state prosecutions, when we're just talking about state law crimes, the states that are now criminalized abortions, those prosecutions largely are vested in the hands of the county district attorney's. and it is a legitimate exercise of prosecutorial discretion, for some of those county da's to say, i have more important funds to prosecute. i have limited resources. i have to set priorities. i am setting my priorities in such a way that i might prosecute a violent crime, or fraud, and i'm not going to

prosecute people who perform or receive abortions. and that certainly is legitimate. one of the problems you're talking about here is trust. i think these da's have taken this pledge, and just attorney in alabama is a signatory to that level. and i believe that he means that. the problem is whether attorneys general in some states have the ability to come in, and oversee that district attorney's jurisdiction, and whether those attorneys general might not justify cases on their own. >> but, but right there. so, one of that district attorney loses his job, or is hit by a bus tomorrow? if you live in your district, can you really trust with their saying? >> >> i think the point you make is a good one. for some reason, these district attorneys have chosen to publicly put themselves out there. i might have not been quite so public about my decision, but as you say, they could be voted out of office. so, they could simply wake up

one morning, and no longer be the district attorney. and that means anyone who has relied on this position is vulnerable. and we there are statutes of limitations for these crimes, that permit prosecution, particularly in states that have now made abortion tantamount to murder. would those statutes, running for a very long time, so yes, people proceed at their own risk in relying on these promises that they won't be prosecuted. >> there is an old saying, your word is your bond. does that not apply the supreme court justices? i want to play for you a little bit of what we heard from these conservative justices, who were appointed by former president trump. >> senator, again, i will tell you that roe v. wade, decided in 1973, as the president of the red state supreme court. it has been reaffirmed. so a good judge will consider as president of the united states supreme court. >> senator, i said that it's

settled as a precedent of the supreme court. one of the important things to keep in mind about roe v. wade is that it has been reaffirmed many times over the past 45 years. >> as richard fallon from harvard said, roe is not a super president because this overruling never ceased, but that doesn't mean that it should be overruled. it just means that it doesn't fall under the small handful of cases like margaret versus madison, and brown versus the board, but no one questions anymore. >> so, katie, do you, first. melissa, i want you to weigh in. are they just crossing their fingers under the table, are there no repercussions? the reason we have hearings is to ask these specific questions. and clearly, they want telling the truth. or at the very least, weren't being straight. >> so, i think the idea of having hearings in order to really understand what we, you know, people have been considered for the bench truly

think. that is an antiquated idea. we see, hearing after hearing, that people ask difficult questions, and they find creative ways to -- you know, to say that they believe largely in the idea of precedent. but if you look at a decision today, i think that all of the justices were decided they needed to overturn roe v. wade weight would, say there are some cases in american history, where the decision was just wrong. i think a big example is chrissy versus ferguson. it was important not to uphold that decision, in order to go forward and have a more equal country. and i think the idea we see supreme court justices be considered, and they always tell the truth and tackle hard issues head on, is somewhat wrong headed. i think everybody is playing the game of how we get forward. it's a matter of senate matt. it's a matter of not seeing anything that can be fast interpreted in a way that would hinge somebody down. >> say whatever it takes to get

across the line, melissa? >> stephanie, if you listen to those responses carefully, they're pretty anodyne responses. roe v. wade is a precedent, which but at no point, did any of them ever say when i get in the black robe, and i'm sitting on that bench, i will uphold roe v. wade. and katie's absolutely right. you can say that because they want to be confirmed. they have to be conservative, but keep conservative senators on board, without having the liberal senators depart. so they said what they said. it's not exactly a lie. it's obviously not as forthcoming as perhaps, we would like. but it's also not impeachable. these are individuals who are appointed for life. individuals like me testifying against them, and said, that they would be solid votes to over rule roe versus wade. and we hope that some senators were listening. obviously, some senators were not. and here we are. >> they are appointed for life. glenn's thomas celebrating his birthday, overturning roe v. wade.

katie benner, melissa murray, joyce vance, it is always a privilege to have you on, but especially tonight. thank you all for bringing your expertise, and more importantly, for being my friends. coming up, today's ruling and the immediate impact for women around the country. one of our next guests will explain why she says there are now two different americas. and later, people already had all opening of the supreme court before today's ruling. where today fits into the history books? the 11th hour just getting underway on a very important friday night. getting getting underway on we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. friday night there's a monster problem and our hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board.

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every trip is a big deal. >> today, i had to look people

in the eye, and turn them away, when they were thinking abortions. the patients i see who have abortions are all of us. they are your friends, your family, your neighbors. they are members of our community, of our state. all who deserve access to safe, timely medical care. >> it did not take long for today's decision to create confusion and distress. in the state of texas, the attorney general released an advisory, saying, quote, abortion providers could be criminally liable for providing abortions starting today. with us tonight to discuss, amy extra miller, president and ceo of women's health, the nation's largest independent abortions provider. and mark, senior counsel at the

center for reproductive rights. he also served as senator feinstein's lead counsel for judicial nominations. amy, take us through your day. your clinics in texas had to immediately suspend services. what happened the moment this decision was made, because you've got women in many cases, girls, young women, under the age of 18, having the most stressful day of their life, heading in for an abortion. what happened to them? >> so, today, the advice council, we have to stop seeing abortion patients. as soon as decision came out, in order to protect our staff, in order to protect our patients from a very aggressive administration in the state of texas. we had to tell people that we couldn't care for them. and we are completely committed to caring and completely trained and ready to provide safe abortion care. but for this kind of situation,

for this kind of decision that happened today for the supreme court. so, while here in texas, we have to say no. in our states, like minnesota and maryland, and virginia, where we have clinics as well, we are preparing for an influx of people who are being forced to migrate out of the states where abortions have been banned. and travel across the country in order to get sick abortion care. >> so, what happens to those women today in texas? when you turned them away, what did they tell you? where did they go? >> you know, people don't have anywhere to go. clinics and oklahoma have been shuttered by abortion bans now. clinics in louisiana, the same. clinics in new mexico are really at capacity. so, we have been supporting people through our way finder program, help women find their

way to clinics outside of texas. and we have a bunch of patients who just begged us to put them on the waiting list, if somehow we're gonna be able to reopen, and care for them, they are begging, please, come in. and our clinic staff as well, they're so dedicated and so communicate in the state of texas, and all the states where we have clinics. they're just so tuned into what people needs in our communities, and they keep saying to us, we want to see as many patients as we can for as long as we can. so, so heartbreaking today that we had to stop care, and we will open open all of our clinics, we have to stop providing abortion care, since this came out. and start sending people as far as minnesota, virginia, or maryland, instead. >> mark, i promise, i'm gonna get you in a second. my question, amy, when you turn women away, if they said, all right, i'm gonna get my car, i'm gonna find the nearest clinic, how far are they gonna

have to go? how long will the drive be? >> so, stephanie, even before this supreme court ruling today, already, 30% of the people we are seeing in our clinic in minnesota, which is about 21 hours drive from the closest place in texas, we're coming from texas, just because texas's sb8 abortion ban. and now, we're seeing these abortion bans in multiple states in the south, in the midwest. so, once a person decides they don't have the ability to can continue their pregnancy, they're going to seek an abortion. and these abortion bans don't prevent unplanned pregnancy. they don't help people plan their families. they simply banned people from care, and force them to migrate. we have seen people traveling all the way from south texas, from our community in mcallen, all the way to alexandria, virginia. that is a three days drive. we had a patient drive with her children. she took her children with her because childcare is very difficult to get for that many days in a row.

she had the abortion and got in her car, and drove all the way back to texas in order to make it to work, so that you can keep her job. this is the reality of people that we are serving. people are being forced to travel by car, by bus, people who fly, have never even flown before, they're trying to figure out how to fly, and navigate all these things they haven't done before. they don't know what lift is or uber is, or they might have a credit card that allows them to check in in a hotel. these people need our advocacy, and they need our support at this time. and it's gonna be this way for sometime into the future that you're gonna need to support people to get safe abortion care, and also, be there in the communities for people who are going to be forced to carry pregnancies against their will. and so, support community networks that can help with maternal mortality and pregnancy outcomes that are gonna impact our community for generations to come. >> mark, it was clear in texas,

as aimee said, their legal counsel advised them, they couldn't continue abortion services. certainly, they would want to. in other states, how chaotic and confusing is this ruling, just knowing whether or not it's legal in your state? >> well, today's decision, which is absolutely devastating for at least half of the country, abortion is poised to be banned. it is immediately or will be very soon. texas, for example, there is confusion about whether the parole ban has come back to life, the sort of a zombie band that isn't actually where on the statute, and yet, the attorney general has come out with this extreme position, saying that somehow it bans abortion anyway, and threatening criminal sanctions against providers, like amy, like which i'm very proud to represent.

the confusion has been sounded everywhere. and look, if you are in a blue state, and you think, this isn't gonna affect me. this is terrible. i hate this outcome. i hate this decision, but it's actually not gonna affect me. you are wrong. and the reason is, think about -- look at what's happened in texas after texas passed a six-week mandate has been in effect for nine months. as amy was saying, the rush of patients out of texas to oklahoma, to new mexico, to kansas, that is creating backlogs of weeks, weeks in those other states. if you are in a blue state, patience from half of the country are now gonna be coming to your state, trying to seek abortion care. that remains illegal in your state, but it's gonna be hard to get an appointment there. we also know -- >> we are out of time. i want to --

i want to ask before we go, though. these red states that are making moves to ban abortion, when they banned it, or restrict it, at the same time, are they even going to offer more financial services, more support to these women, because many, many women who seek abortions, b.a.r.t. of the reason is, they cannot financially support a pregnancy. prenatal care is hugely expensive. is this gonna turn to any financial support coming from a state or an obligation or financial obligations from the fathers? >> you know, i wish i could say that it would, but even if these states, we know that the states that are acting to ban abortion are the same states that have rejected expansion of medicaid. it these are the same states that have limited resources available. look, setting that aside, the states, still, should not be able to tell a woman, that from the point of fertilization, from the point of conception, that she can't decide what to

do with her own body. i don't care what kind of resources are available to that woman. that is a decision for women to make, with their families, with their loved ones, for themselves. >> i'm not suggesting they are. my question is just, those states that are making the decision that you can't, which i would like to know is, fine, if they can't, then what are you doing to support those women? amy, thank you so much for being here. mark, thank you as well. you definitely made us smarter. i appreciate your time. >> coming up next, americas views on roe do not line up with what we saw from the supreme court today. democrats want to turn the outrage into votes in november. is it gonna work? when the 11th hour continues. urho continues (driver) conventional thinking would say verizon has the largest and fastest 5g network. but, they don't. they only cover select cities with 5g. and with coverage of over 96% of interstate highway miles, they've got us covered.

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63% of americans. nearly two thirds of people surveyed said they do not want roe v. wade overturned. yet republicans they're doubling down. former president mike pence is calling for a nationwide ban as many in parly are celebrating the ruling. i want to bring in jenny, the four more white house director for president obama. and former communications director for jeb bush. and our presidential historian michael. his latest work is presidents of war. jennifer, let's get right to

it. we see protests in the streets across the country. will this mobilize democratic voters? young ones especially? >> yeah i think it can. but democratic candidates have to lead the charge. i look to, you can't, expect that it will happen organically. and i would point to whitmer as an example of a candidate who is leading into the abortion vibe. but also concerned about the rollback of rights in general. she has a zombie law, so in michigan, a law, in michigan there is a law on the books that ban abortion if roe is overturned in the colts right now. she will file a lawsuit against that. earlier this year, she did a lot of press around this issue. she had one of your colleagues fly out from michigan yesterday to be part of a roundtable. listening to pro-choice women, republicans and democrats in the state. she is not shining away from it. she is going right to it. and i think these are

consistent existential threats. that right to american women, it is gone. there are other rights that are on the block. and there are, you can't shy way from it. you have to go back to it. >> tim, help us understand how the republican calculates. this is a wildly unpopular decision that they're celebrating as a huge win? >> well, it's been a 50-year fight for republicans. and i think that they are obviously starting the pro-life movement. >> for some republicans! >> yeah for some. >> you are republican for 20 years right? downstairs in my house, where my mother and my father. lifetime republicans. the three of you? this hasn't been a fight for you. they don't feel good about this. >> right, and that's what i was saying. there are couple parts of the republican party. me, and your parents are not in the republican party anymore. so a lot of this is the old republicans in the suburbs. they've been pushed out of the

poverty. and i think that it's important for democrats to talk to them during the midterms. it's got two parts. gonna mobilize the base, but also speak to the kind of romney and biden voters that put biden over the top that they did not get in 2016. so there are two elements to this. the problem for republicans, and the political issue that they are going to face, is that in some of these states, like when you have in texas, these five-week bands, these immediate after fertilization bands. even mainstream republicans do not like that. this is a very small parts of the republican base that is mobilized. in the state of georgia, wisconsin. both very important swing states. the wisconsin trigger lawsuit has gone into a fact. the georgia trigger law will go into effect. the post important states in november with big cities in milwaukee and evan lantana that have a lot of mixed views on

abortion but certainly not a five-week ban. and those are the places that democrats will have to fight aggressively to make republicans pay for these extreme measures being taken. >> michael, you know who doesn't have to fight aggressively or get reelected? supreme court justices. so when we keep hearing about how unpopular this is or how the court is really losing the fate of the american people. do these justices care? they are on the bench for a life. and this is exactly what they wanted. >> that's exactly it, that's the central question here. look at the tone of the decision today. george washington would have said, if you've got power, like a five-person majority. you always exercise it with restraint. you always try to bind the country together. that seems to be what john roberts was trying to do, which was trying to introduce a change in abortion rights but with this decision, it sounds like just donald trump. it was intended to throw

scalding acid into the face of people who feel strongly about abortion rights. it was attended to shock. compare that to, for instance, the decision on brown versus board of education, 1954. saying that you took to bed separate and equally. a separate society. oren said privately as he was talking to justice says, this is going to be a big social change and the government is now saying that there has to be integration. you can't do that with a 5 to 4 majority. you have to do it with language that is generally, introduced with mercy. and as a result, that was an overwhelming majority for brown versus board of education. it helped that social change to be accepted. but what this was, this morning i think. pushed our beloved breathing country into a civil war. over the issue of abortion. one day after it made another

decision on gun safety. this is not a supreme court trying to heal, this is a supreme court of a radical majority. essentially saying, look at how much power we have even though we are about a third of the country in terms of sharing our views. we are going to shove it in your face. >> that might sound like donald trump, but it doesn't sound like donald trump for a life when it comes to abortion. he didn't take such a strong stance until he realized the value of the evangelical vote. >> absolutely! >> all three of our gas are going to stay with us. so stick around. we're gonna take a quick break. when we come back, public support for a woman's right to choose goes back decades! we're gonna have more on the historical impact of today's decision, and the consequences yet to come! when the 11th hour continues on this very important night! y important night! ere's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete hiv treatment you can get every other month.

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and i can say that but the stories we're out there, what's happened to women if they needed an abortion. to see us going back to knitting needles in the whole thing, i just, i'm stunned. i don't understand. >> two years after roe v. wade was decided, gallup began asking americans, should abortion be legal in all circumstances? legal in some circumstances, or always illegal? and as you can see on your

screen right now, a huge majority of americans have always wanted abortion to remain legal. let's discuss. jennifer palmieri, tim miller, michael beschloss, also with us. michael, is there historical precedent for a decision this unpopular? >> sure. but we have to go back to 1857, dred scott decision, that actually did lead to civil war. and by no means suggesting that this decision is the equivalent of dred scott, but sometimes, there is a decision in the supreme court that is so shocking to a majority of americans that it leads to consequences that we do not want. this was almost naked leak rule, the way that this was done this morning. it's essentially saying just two thirds of the american people, just as we've been saying, my dear friend, stephanie, that even though a vast majority prefers to have abortion rights available much

more easily, you know, we are talking on the ballot, on the supreme court, we are now in charge, so we're only having but more couple of years. but at the earliest opportunity, we're gonna do this in the most angry and overwhelming way possible. that's not the way it's been done usually in history. and when it's done this way, just like 1857, it makes americans distrust the supreme court, it sends the prestige way down. >> they don't care about prestige or reputation. they got what they want. >> with clarence thomas, in a side car, babbling about were going after contraceptives and a marriage. that's where we are. >> he doesn't care if protests are going on. he got his wish. >> the purpose of this is the anger. >> well, it's working. jennifer, why haven't democrats codify raw roe at any point in the last half century? >> so there was an effort, early on in the presidency to

do so, to codify roe. and i would say, it didn't happen, it didn't happen under a bomb of, it didn't under under clinton, for two reasons. there was still disagreement within the party, you know, not all of democratic representatives of congress were pro-choice. that mostly changed now. and then, as it went on, i think people just thought it wasn't ever going to happen, that they did not believe that roe was actually in that kind of jeopardy. they did not imagine a day like today, until it was too late. and with the congress that we have now, you know, only 50 democrats and the senate, that's not gonna happen. >> that actually speaks to how determined antiabortion activists have been over decades, working for this moment. in the last few years, i, mean they were almost laughed at by many others who thought, this

is never gonna happen. this is settled law. tim, is there actually anything to learn? for those who support abortion rights, is there anything to learn from the strategy that antiabortion activists have had all these years? because my god, nobody thought they'd win, and they just did! >> absolutely. look at the deal with the devil with donald trump. look at a lot of these folks came around to liking trump. we can do a whole other segment about that, but in 2016, there were a lot of voters who did not trust trump. but he made a deal based on the supreme court. and he got enough votes to win the majority between electoral college, in large part because the voters who had the, who cared about this issue generally in some cases, have been conditions to care about this issue. this was part of putting on that seam red jersey in other cases. so, i think on the left, you did not see that in 2016. he did not see people saying, we have to go out and vote for hillary, because the supreme

court is too important. you know, you saw the opposite. you saw some people from the sanders grab that were refusing to support hillary clinton, and throwing her vote away, and people who didn't turn out for it. i think there's good reason. i understand the frustration on the left for people saying, we voted, we won, and there's still happened. but i think there's a lesson we learned about the persistence, and about, you know, prioritizing what is happening on the court, and sometimes, taking you know, the good instead of the perfect. it's certainly, we wouldn't be in this position, and that happened in 2016. >> but here's the question, for those voters, does this make donald trump more powerful, and that he fulfilled the deal. he got it done or less valuable that they're done with him, they got their wish, they don't need him anymore? >> i think the very interesting question. i think trump has been slightly weakening over the past few weeks because of the part of the january 6th committee. and you can see that a little bit. some republican full, some focus groups we do at the bulwark. i think that this could be a,

you know, a shirt that he waives over his head, that make people feel like, this we elected him because he -- this might turn him from being a loser, which he is, into a winner and some of their minds. we don't know that yet, but i'm a little bit concerned that it strengthens him. obviously, that's not the prime concern for people today. but it's something to monitor. >> we'll see. there's a whole lot of independence in this country, and they don't think this is a winning day. jennifer palmieri, tim miller, michael beschloss, you made us all smarter tonight. i really appreciate you joining us. >> our special extended coverage of the end of roe continues after the break. we are going on all night. going on all night. >> this is something central to a woman's life, to her dignity. it's a decision that she must make him for herself.

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