Skip to main content

tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  June 27, 2022 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT

7:00 pm
>> quick reminder before we go, as we've been reporting today, the january 6th investigation i did a surprise unexpected here into the calendar for tomorrow. they said they're going to present a recently obtained evidence, and received witness testimony. no, we don't have an obvious idea with this is about. but we are entry. that surprised hearing is scheduled for 1 pm eastern, tomorrow, msnbc's gonna have live coverage starting at noon. and then, tomorrow night, 8:00 eastern, i will help host a primetime recap of that hearing, alongside a whole boatload of my beloved colleagues. anyway, i don't know what's going to happen. i'm not going to sleep, which means you should get a good night sleep tonight, if only to be fully awake for me, really, really botching everything tomorrow on live tv. i'll see you then. now, it's time for the last
7:01 pm
four. with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. w, igood evening >> good evenin, rachel. i will be on the port side of the vote from where you -- from where you will be sitting. what's a shocker. i mean, this committee has been very carefully scheduling. and then, the only thing they were doing with the schedule was pushing it further out. and actually, in effect, giving us bigger breaks. just suddenly, i have to jump to position for a hearing from this committee. by the way, for any committee, i mean scheduling a hearing overnight, that's just the rarest thing in committee world. so -- >> why do you think there is -- why is there a rush. i mean, if they got something new, obviously, they could've factored it into the readings that they've already scheduled for july. they could've factored into hearings they have scheduled a week from now. why, what could possibly explain where there is a rush to get the new evidence, get the new witness testimony before the american public,
7:02 pm
urgently on zero notice? >> and here we crash into the limits on my ability to guess. [laughs] but here's what i think is really striking about it, rachel. some of these members, adam schiff, had to travel across the country for this. so, when they're in recess, it's extremely difficult to bring them back. one of the things that really strikes me about this is there is a big difference in a situation like this for the members, say, traveling from wyoming. there is a big difference between tuesday and wednesday. if you can just i -- mean, if you can just say wednesday, it would be a huge difference. so, they all decided, you know what? wednesday is too late. and that's what's so striking about this. thursday's -- >> i know! >> thursday is too late. we've got to do it tuesday. i mean, this -- i'm on the edge of my seat. >> i know. and there's been no leaks about the identity of the witness. and, before today, there were
7:03 pm
no leaks that there was gonna be some -- it's not like we heard rumblings over the weekend, you know? or even this morning that there was going to be something that was all suddenly noticed. i mean, we knew what we knew. and same thing with a witness identity, or the witnesses identity, there is a lot of speculation, a lot of guessing that we don't know. so, something is afoot. >> i strongly suspect, given that these hearings have been conducted as if with the hand of a dramatist. i mean, they've been excellent hearings, substantively, all the way through. but this process has understood the rhythm of drama. and you don't do something like this in the middle of a well presented drama, without it being really huge. i mean, you've really set this up to be huge, and and the context of these kinds of hearings, if we were to go back to the only model we have for them really, which is watergate,
7:04 pm
the huge reveal, the really huge reveal in the hearings was, there are tapes of the president in the oval office. and so, i suspect that the hand of the dramatist here requires something of that magnitude, which in the 21st century is probably videotape, which brings us to that documentarian who recently presided -- >> no. that can be a. i mean, there's not gonna be enough alexander -- it can be something that big. it can be. you know, with a documentarian, would it have made a difference if you went on wednesday versus tuesday? i don't know -- >> i can't explain that. i cannot possibly explain, not giving these members another 24 hours to get back in place. that, i can't explain at all. i have no way -- i mean, i suppose we will know tomorrow night, but i suspect we are going to hear -- my
7:05 pm
guess, this is pure guess, is we are going to hear the presidents voice in some form in, and this is pure guess. i know absolutely nothing about this. but the way these hearings have been unfolding, it's, it feels like they have something so urgent, that includes, i suspect, an urgency to present this to the justice department, right? because merrick garland has said, look, we're all just watching this, you know? and we are watching it as soon as it happens, mark garland sent, if i don't watch it live, i watch it on tape, you know, so they're all watching any every minute. and this is something they want to deliver to the justice department tomorrow, as well as to us. >> right, it's a very good point. the justice department, as far as we know, is not getting anything from the committee that all the rest of us aren't getting, just in terms of the public releases. and so, it could very much be that the urgent audience for whatever it is they're gonna reveal's doj as much as it is
7:06 pm
the public. >> let everybody just forget everything that i just said, because it's pure guesswork. and let's just go back in to a state of pure suspense, without any, any attempt to guess the head ahead of the news. there you go. there you go. you will -- >> will sort this out before we go on tv. >> you sleep well, tonight. >> a few tomorrow, lawrence. >> thank you, rachel. >> and so, the united states of america is once again the effect two countries, two groups of states. three states and not free states. in the free states, which are controlled by democrats, all citizens have all of the constitutional rights that they had last week. and in a not free state, people have lost their constitutional right for the first time in history. a largest state where women and girls have lost the constitutional right to control
7:07 pm
pregnancies this texas. and texans do not absolutely do not want to lose that right. a new quarterback poll shows that 59% of texans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases. 79% of texans believe that abortions should be legal for victims of rape and incest. but new abortion bans in texas have no exceptions for rape and incest. 12 year old girl in texas who are raped, will have to give birth, according to texas law. if a 12 year old girl is raped by her father, she will have to give birth to her sister, according to texas law. texas governor, greg abbott, has not spoken publicly about the supreme court decision, but
7:08 pm
he did issue a written statement, quote, the u.s. supreme court correctly overturned roe v. wade, and we stated the right of states to protect innocent, unborn children. governor abbott will not protect innocent 12 year old children, if they are raped. 79% of texans say governor abbott is wrong about that. 79% of texans say that victims of rape, of all ages, children and adults, should have a right to end that pregnancy. our first guest deny, beto o'rourke, it's running against greg abbott for governor. >> it's not about life, you know it's more important? gun violence! [noise] [applause] [inaudible] those 19 children in uvalde, texas, would still be alive --
7:09 pm
[inaudible] the lives and the values of the women of texas. >> you are not gonna believe what the governor of texas says about this. you're not gonna believe any because it's not true. >> why force a rape or incest victim to carry a pregnancy to term? >> rape is a crime. and texas will work tirelessly to make sure that we eliminate all rapists from the streets of texas, by aggressively going after -- prosecuting them and giving, leaving them off the streets. so go number one in the state of texas is to eliminate rape, so that no woman, no person will be a victim of rape. >> eliminate rape, eliminates rape, that is the texas republican plan to make sure that no victim of rape in texas
7:10 pm
will ever need abortion, eliminates right! texas is number one. it is the second biggest state, but its number one. california has 10 million more people than texas, 10 million. but texas is number one. texas is number one in forcible rapes. 13,509 victims of criminal forceable rape, in a year, in the state of texas. texas. it is number one. and the governor of texas tells the lie that he is going to eliminate ripe. eliminates rape, so that no woman, no person will be a victim of rape, so 13,509 it's
7:11 pm
going to become zero. i guess this is that kind of like people like greg abbott think they have to tell, when they are forcing 12-year-old girls, 12 year old white victims, to give birth. there is not one person in texas including greg abbott, who believes that greg abbott is ever going to eliminate rape. and so, now, now, texans know what greg abbott looks like when he is lying. >> so, go number one in the state of texas, it is to eliminate rape, so that no woman, no person will be a victim of rape. >> consider the cruelty of that lie. that is a lie told in service to the republican policy of forced birth, a republican cruelty a forced birth, forcing
7:12 pm
great children to have children. that is a republican policy. and there is not one republican in texas, or one republican on the supreme court, or one republican anywhere in the country, who will ever tell the truth about what they have decided to do. two little girls who are raped, two women who are raped, two girls who are victims of incest. the republican policy for rape victims is to victimized them again, and force them all to give birth. and in the 50 years of debate on abortion in this country, we have never once, had a single opponent of abortion, ever tell the truth, when asked why should victims of rape and incest be forced to give birth? that's the question that you just saw greg abbott answer,
7:13 pm
and he is not the first to lie in answering that question. you will not find an honest answer to that question in the last 50 years. and you will not find a more grotesque lie in response to that question then greg abbott saying, that he is gonna eliminate right in the state that is number one, texas is number one in forcible rape. greg abbott's reelection polling numbers are collapsing in texas. he dropped ten points after he lied about the mass murder of 19 kids, and two teachers, in robb elementary school in uvalde. the day after the mass murder, he told the lie that heroic police work save the day. and it couldn't have been much worse if the police had not so heroic. when he was in the middle of telling that lie, better beto o'rourke interrupted him. >> the time to stop the next
7:14 pm
shooting now and you are -- your all bringing up nothing. he said this was unpredictable. this was totally predictable when you choose not to do anything. >> sir, you are out of line! >> and standing up for the kids of the state to stop this from happening again. [inaudible] >> i can't believe you are -- to make -- [inaudible] >> this is on you until you choose to do something about it. >> since then, the republican mayor of uvalde, who called beto o'rourke has been busy trying to prevent families in uvalde from finding out what's really happened inside that school. and beto o'rourke has continued to push for full transparency about what happened in uvalde. after uvalde, governor abbott i both points dropped, and that
7:15 pm
was before greg abbott praised a supreme court decision opposed by 59% of texans. and it was before greg abbott started lying about eliminating rape, because 79% of texans say that governor abbott and republicans are wrong to force victims of rape and insist to give birth. beto o'rourke lost his run for senate four years ago by two and a half percent of the vote, in the four years since then, his supporters know exactly how much harder they have to work this time to close that gap. this weekend, beto o'rourke and his supporters knocked on 30,279 doors across texas. >> action, or reaction? what do you choose? >> action! >> action, reaction? >> action! >> you're all ready to knock on doors and -- [noise]
7:16 pm
[applause] [inaudible] >> leading off our discussion tonight, beto o'rourke, democratic nominee for governor of texas. thank you very much for joining us tonight. where were you when you got the word about the supreme court decision, and what has it been like in texas since then? >> i was making my way back to texas from new york, and immediately reached out to my team. and said, listen, there are millions of people across the state who are now under attack. we have a trigger law in texas that deems all abortion will be outlawed, beginning at fertilization, with no exception for rape or incest. how do we do everything that we can right now, to fight for them, and to make sure that everyone has a chance to act? because, action is gonna be our best way to overcome this. it's the key to victory, and it's the antidote to the
7:17 pm
despair that so many are tempted to succumb to at this moment. as you mentioned a moment minutes ago, we had our biggest weekend of knocking on doors since we began this campaign, in november. more than 30,000 times, a volunteer knocked on the door of a complete stranger, and invited them to come into the election, participate in our democracy, in a state that does more than any other suppress and intimidate the vote. and ensure that every single one of us understands what's on the line. and the fact that this is happening more than four months away from this election on number eight tells you everything about how motivated the people of texas are. that's the spirit of the state. this supreme court decision, greg abbott's cruelty, that will not define us. we will be defined by the way in which we overcome this, by winning political power, and making sure that those rights of every single texan are protected and expanded, going forward. >> greg abbott said, he's going to eliminate rape.
7:18 pm
in the state of texas. there is no adult question i can ask you about that. i just want to get your reaction to him making that announcement to texas, that he's going to eliminate rape. >> as you pointed out earlier, not only has he not eliminated it, texas unfortunately leads the nation in the number of people who have been raped in our state. and since greg abbott has been governor, the clearance rate for violent crimes, including rape, has declined from 70% to 50%. so, not only are there more people being great, there are now more rapists out there who have not been brought into justice. and we can only imagine what that feels like for these victims, to not have that justice or accountability, or that closure. and it is all because of the person in power, who says that he is for life, and he cares about the heartbeats of our
7:19 pm
fellow texans. and when you look at the evidence, the victims of these rates, the woman in a state who experience maternal crisis, unknown for much of the rest of the country. three times as bad for black women in the state of texas. a child protective services system that oversees the worst foster care programs run in america, 100 children lost their lives in cbs custody and care, over the last one and a half years, just here in the state of texas. and as you pointed out earlier, gun violence is now the leading cause of death for children and teenagers in the state of texas. this guy does not care at all about the lives of our fellow texans, so, it's time that we replace him. i don't know that he wants people to die, but he's unable or unwilling to do the things, make the change, stand up to the special interests necessary to save lives of texans. so, let's get past him. but when this election, november. and let's get after helping our
7:20 pm
fellow texans, saving those lives, and allowing each of us to live to our full, and allow this state to fulfill its promise. >> so, the governor who insulted the intelligence of every texan, and everyone in the country, by saying he was going to eliminate rate, has never promised to eliminate school shootings in texas. you were there, when he was doing that first press conference that we virtually, everything the governor said, turned out to be untrue. half of it was proven untrue the next day, and then, the rest of it has been proven untrue since then. what has to happen now in the investigation of the mass murder in this uvalde? >> we need the facts. these families deserve the truth. i have kept in contact with every one of those families that i've met, who lost a son or a daughter on that day, more than a month ago. and they want three things. they want the facts, and the
7:21 pm
truth. they want to make sure that the stories of their children, their lives, are told the rest of this country. they want to make sure that they all also did not die in vain, and they want action. they want us to prevent this from ever happening to another parent again. and greg abbott is stopping all of those things from happening right now. he's stonewalling every freedom of information request on behalf of those parents, the public, our fellow texans. he is refusing to take even the most common sense steps that most of us, republicans, democrats, gun owners, not gun owners alike, can agree on. like, universal background checks, or a red flag law, or safe storage laws, these are things that most of us can agree on. in fact, the position that greg abbott holds in texas is supported by only 6% of his fellow texans. it's almost as if he's not listening to, or seeking to serve, or present or flecked the people that he's supposed to lead in the state. >> beto o'rourke, thank you
7:22 pm
very much for starting off our discussion tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. coming up, john eastman is the former trump attorney who pushed the idea that mike pence could overturn the presidential election on january 6th. today, we learned the federal agents have his phone. they seized it last week. andrew weissmann and ken dilanian will join us next. weissmann ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. dilanian will join us next fishing helps ease my mind. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. woah! look out! [submarine rising out of water] [minions making noise] minions are bitin' today.
7:23 pm
(sung) liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. minions: the rise of gru, in theaters july 1st. lemons. lemons, lemons, lemons. look how nice they are. the moment you become an expedia member, you can instantly start saving on your travels. so you can go and see all those, lovely, lemony, lemons. ♪ and never wonder if you got a good deal. because you did. ♪ (grandmother) thank you for taking me home. it's so far. (young woman) don't worry about it, grandma! this'll be did. (young woman) two chocolate milkshakes, please. (grandmother) make it three. (young woman) three? (grandmother) did you get his number? (young woman) no, grandma! grandma!! (grandmother) excuse me! (young woman vo) some relationships get better with time. that's why i got a crosstrek. (avo) ninety-six percent of subaru vehicles sold in the last ten years are still on the road.
7:24 pm
(grandmother) i'm so glad you got a subaru. (young woman) i wonder who gave me the idea? (avo) love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. for people living with h-i-v, keep being you. and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. research shows people who take h-i-v treatment every day and get to and stay undetectable can no longer transmit h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your doctor about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b, do not stop taking biktarvy without talking to your doctor. common side effects were diarrhea, nausea, and headache.
7:25 pm
if you're living with hiv, keep loving who you are. and ask your doctor if biktarvy is right for you. wanna help kids get their homework done? if you're living with hiv, keep loving who you are. well, an internet connection's a good start. but kids also need computers. and sometimes the hardest thing about homework is finding a place to do it. so why not hook community centers up with wifi? for kids like us, and all the amazing things we're gonna learn. through projectup, comcast is committing $1 billion so millions more students can continue to get the tools they need to build a future of unlimited possibilities. as a business owner, your bottom line is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile.
7:26 pm
flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network with no line activation fees or term contracts... saving you up to $500 a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. those appliqué replace phones comcast business. powering possibilities.
7:27 pm
seized by the fbi? that's the question facing john eastman tonight. the lawyer who comes by was donald trump to try to overturn the outcome of the presidential election. we know the fbi seized his phone because john eastman filed a lawsuit today. trying to get the phone back. if the agents approached john eastman as he was leaving a restaurant in new mexico. he spun was swerved with a search warrant for his phone. on the same day, that the fbi also sees the photo of jeffrey clark. the former justice department official who was also conspiring with donald trump to overturn the presidential election. one of the emails that know they would find on john eastman phone has been made public on the committee to rudy giuliani that it should be thought on
7:28 pm
the pardon list. be discussing what is likely to be a dramatic karen went to ten or six committee. suddenly schedule just today. for tomorrow at 1 pm with the hearing notice that the committee will, quote, present recently obtained evidence and received witness testimony. joining me now, andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal district of new york. he's a professor of practice at nyu law school. -- national security correspondent. andrew weizmann, your reading of what we have learned about the eastman iphone. >> it is quite interesting. what we learned is a new federal judge signed on monday june 17th and order that allowed the fbi to seize and
7:29 pm
search that phone. which means that the fbi established to that judge that there was probable cause of a crime. and that there would be probable cause that there was evidence of that crime on his phone. in other words, the fbi can't just go ahead and see something. they need court authorization and they got it. and the other thing that is kind of interesting is that it is not just that it happened. the exo execution happened on the execution of the home search of jeffrey clark. it is clear that they are linked. because the office of the inspector general was involved in both searches. and the officers specter general only has authority of the doj figure is involved and eastman is not a doj figure.
7:30 pm
clark. is there has to be a connection between the two. in order for the specter general to be involved with eastman. and we know from the filing today that they were. >> you are reading of what we found out today? >> >> so, lawrence, it is more than the off for certain specter general was involved. the actual word when you look at it wasn't office of expected general warrant. the main fbi agents on hand to exist, which is quite common cause a department justice expect or general as a tiny agency. many people may have forgotten that back in january 2021 the inspector general, michael horowitz, has renounce after some revelations budgetary clark that he is investigating. he's launching an investigation into the conduct of former justice employees and whether they sought to improperly use the to pack justice department to overthrow the election. it really looks like we are seeing the fruits of that investigation in these to
7:31 pm
search ward executions. of course, wednesday, there is also series of subpoenas courted against people involved in the fake elector scheme. the question that a lot of people are puzzling about his, where is the fbi in this? because undue said, the department justice specter general only has jurisdiction over political corruption involving doj in place. now he can range far and wide with evidence goes in terms of that corruption but there has to be an excess and it sure looks like there is a nexus between eastman and clark and conspiracy. but the justice department. or let's do what he was trying to do in convincing mike pence to change the results of the election on january 6th. that is outside the jurisdiction of the inspector general. it really begs the question, when does the fbi step in and start conducting robust investigation that leads potentially to former president
7:32 pm
trump? >> andrew, he's been in this lawsuit to try to get his phone back. is tightening specter general doesn't have any jurisdiction over me. i am not a justice department employee. >> that is a really bad argument. if the department of justice is contending that this conspiracy. so that there is a conspiracy between eastman and somebody at the justice department such as jeffrey clark. then they also the inspector general does have authority. as well if the close reading of that application by eastman shows that the fbi was involved. and that the fbi was the ones that actually seize the phone and they were going to deliver it to the office of the inspector general for a insemination. so i don't think that the eastman application is gonna go very far. at least at this point of a charge he's going to make motions to suppress but i think at this point his filing is
7:33 pm
largely dead on arrival. >> i know you've been covering the development of the january six committee the surprise hearing for tomorrow as we try to put the pieces together and we're all doing today. putting the pieces together the puzzle that we've seen so far. try to figure out what kind of peace would be so urgent that they would have to schedule it so suddenly for tomorrow. >> he would have to ask me that, lawrence. honestly i have no idea. it is on the best kept secrets in washington. people i'm talking about every day. i haven't even heard good speculation about this other than that there's clearly a reason either about sequencing of witnesses, security of testimony, potential witness intimidation. these are the kind of ideas people are throwing out. or a witness that has recently come forward with a duration that is so explosive they want to get it out in the public domain immediately. that is the best i could do. >> andrew, is very possible department of justice interest
7:34 pm
hidden what the information might be tomorrow that would be a result for the committee to russian? >> it is possible, i am sort of with can that i don't have any idea what it might be. i think it has to have something to do with the concern over the witness. that the witness will somehow be tampered with, or that there will be intimidation. and they want to strike while the iron is hot. that would be my guess. obviously, the information will be made public and once the other ideas here is not just the public at large but merrick garland. so that was be a fact. >> andrew weissmann and kendall alien, thank you very much. coming up supreme court experts, dolley like anne-marie sick, i'll join them next. a last-minute neighbor heard anyone defend the idea of forcing rape and incest victims
7:35 pm
to give birth without using some form of magical thinking like greg abbott's promise to eliminate rape. that is next. rape rape that so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board. dave says “feed it?” and dave feeds it. just then our hero has a breakthrough. "shoot it, camera, shoot a movie!" and so our humble team saves the day by working together. on miro. welcome to allstate, where you can bundle and save. isn't that right phil? i'm in the metaverse, bundling my home and auto insurance. bundle home and auto and save. call a local agent or 1-888-allstate for a quote today. to a child, this is what conflict looks like.
7:36 pm
children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's basically cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children
7:37 pm
like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. my name is trisha. i'm 70 and i live in mill valley, california. my biggest passion is gardening. i love to be outdoors. i have jaybirds that come when i call.
7:38 pm
i know how important it is to feed your body good nutrition. i heard about prevagen and i heard about the research behind it. taking prevagen, i have noticed that i can think clearly. my memory is better. i can say that prevagen is one of the most outstanding supplements i've ever taken. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. life... doesn't stop for diabetes. be ready for every moment, with glucerna. >> after roe v. wade guaranteed it's the number one doctor recommended brand that is scientifically designed to help manage your blood sugar. live every moment. glucerna.
7:39 pm
women the right to control pregnancy as a constitutional right in 1973, the first decade passed quietly. abortion was not a partisan issue. there were prominent supporters
7:40 pm
and opponents of roe v. wade in both parties. but the issue was largely ignored. in her latest new york times with, professor mary ziegler writes, for the better part of a decade after row, abortion was on the backburner for major figures in both political parties. but by the 19 80s ronald reagan saw abortion as an opportunity. reagan, who as governor of california, had signed a law that made abortion accessible in some cases in the state, understood that white evangelical protestant and some catholics were increasingly anxious about the rise of the feminist movement, the early fight for gay rights, and the spread of no fault divorce. abortion, reagan thought, could put republicans in power and keep them there. opposition to roe v. wade was in the republican platform in 1980, when ronald reagan won the presidency. but antiabortion proponents were disappointed with reagan
7:41 pm
appointments to the supreme court, who ended up supporting roe v. wade. mary ziegler rights, so, anti-abortion groups set out to ensure that different kinds of justices would sit on the court, justices who would be logically consistent and indifferent to popular opinion. clarence thomas who joined the court the year before the casey decision, stood out as a model for this new kind of justice. he seemed like the kind of judge who would stick to his principles no matter what the american people thought of him, and who even delighted in the hatred of his opponents on the bench and in congress. that was the kind of justice who would put an end to roe. >> joining us now, legal historian a law professor mary ziegler. she is the author of the new book, dollars for life: the anti-abortion movement and the fall of the republican establishment. and dahlia lithwick, senior editor and legal correspondent for slate, and host of the
7:42 pm
podcast, she's also an msnbc law and politics analyst. and professor mary ziegler, let me begin with you, in the 50-year history of this subject, beginning around the time of roe, have you ever heard a defender of the idea that women and girls who are raped, or victims of incest, should be forced to give birth? have you ever heard someone defend that idea, without some kind of magical thinking, like greg abbott has suggested that he will eliminate rape? >> surprisingly, i have. i mean, it's quite common in the antiabortion movement, to essentially say, anything that contradicts the principle of fetal personhood is wrong. so generally, the argument is, if you can't, you know, justify in the case of rape or incest, you can't justify abortion. and often, you also hear people in the antiabortion movement say, essentially, it's terrible
7:43 pm
that someone was sexually assaulted. but it's worse that they have an abortion, essentially, that the abortion is worse in the sexual assault, and forcing the victim of the sexual assault to carry the pregnancy to term. it is the lesser of the evils. so, we haven't heard that in politics until recently, because the anti-abortion movement gutted it estevan, and we're starting to hear it now, because essentially, the anti abortion movement thinks that it can gets what it wants and u.s. politics. there are no more limits are kunce constraints. >> dahlia, i certainly knew that individuals out there held in his view, that abortion was murder, but politicians, republican politicians, and certainly republican politicians in washington, have always kind of run away from this particular piece of it, whenever they could. and i've never heard any of them deal with it honestly. >> i think what you are identifying, lawrence, is that we hit a really interesting inflection point a few years ago. for the longest time, going back to, women were treated as
7:44 pm
though they were sort of just extra large children, which is why doctors were chiefly prosecuted and doctors were chiefly the bad guys. all the way through, including after casey in 1992, the -- i think the antiabortion rhetoric was about helping women make better choices. and if they got into trouble, helping support them, and helping, you know, helping them think through their bad decisions and avoid regret. almost immediately after brett kavanaugh was ascended to the court, and i think at medication abortion, which started to be really a thing, that flipped. and suddenly women were on the hook to. suddenly, women were the murderers to. and i think one of the things that has really changed in that kind of the discourse we're having right now is an absolute disregard for how women get pregnant, and how they suffer.
7:45 pm
now, the new kind of rhetoric around it is that there are the bad guys, no matter what. >> and professor ziegler, when i was seeing in your tracing of the history, and remembering just totally, this sense that when roe v. wade was decided, the supporters of roe v. wade fought thought victory was a victory. and they relaxed, compared to the opponents of roe v. wade, who thought, okay, this case doesn't end here. >> yeah, absolutely. i mean, i think there is this cautionary tale here, where a moment of promise for progress and that way. there was a ton of complacency. there was someone who wrote in the 70s, she wrote to her colleagues, don't debate antiabortion people, because the supreme court has spoken, and the case is closed. there is no more need to debate this. this is over. and he occasionally we'll hear conservatives saying the same thing, essentially, the supreme court has spoken and the case is close.
7:46 pm
and if history teaches us anything, it's that the supreme court can't settle this issue. that was true when the supreme court had sided with the american people, in the sense of issuing decision in roe, that reflected the popular opinion on abortion. we now know the dog's decision, undercuts popular opinion on abortion. so the thought this is somehow, it's even more ridiculous than it would ever be seen in 1973, where people thought the court had resolve the matter once and for all. >> and dahlia, this decision seems to have the capacity for some significant unintended consequences. even by the majority who issued the report. >> i mean, the majority, i think, in particular, just justice kavanaugh, i think electability that issue is not settled. and quiet will follow in the land, and everyone will go home and feel good about everything. and clearly, you can tell from the protest, lawrence, you can tell by the absolute, i think, shock and outrage that this is not gonna result, resolve
7:47 pm
itself. and i think also, the supreme court, in saying this stops row, it's not going to affect lgbtq rights. it's not gonna affect contraception. also, really unloaded a power can, it's clear that's not correct. and then, everybody is panic stricken, and everybody is loaded for the right right now. >> professor mary ziegler and dahlia lithwick, thank you both very much for joining our discussion. >> thanks for having us. >> coming up, stacey abrams is making reproductive rights a central issue in her campaign for governor in georgia. lauren groh-wargo, the campaign manager of stacey abrams campaign will join us, next. ger of stacey abrams ger of stacey abrams campaign wil replacing thought with worry. but one thing can calm uncertainty. an answer. an answer that leads to even more answers.
7:48 pm
mayo clinic. you know where to go. meet ron. that man is always on. and he's on it with jardiance for type 2 diabetes. his underhand sky serve? on fire. his grilling game? on point. and his a1c? ron is on it. with the once-daily pill, jardiance. jardiance not only lowers a1c... it goes beyond to reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease. and jardiance may help you lose some weight. jardiance may cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar.
7:49 pm
a once-daily pill that goes beyond lowering a1c? on it with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. georgia's governor, ryan kemp,
7:50 pm
7:51 pm
7:52 pm
who has the right for the election called the supreme court's decision to overturn roe versus wade and revoked constitutional right for the first time in history a, quote, historical victory for life. his opponent in the governor's race, democrat stacey abrams said this. >> we know that the right to choose should not be divvied up among states. and that the sinister practice of taking constitutional rights and allowing each state to decide the quality of your citizenship is wrong. women deserve bodily autonomy, they deserve the right to make these choices, and then georgia in particular and a matter of days the six-week ban will be the law of the land.
7:53 pm
that is horrendous, that is appalling, it is wrong, and as an ex governor which do everything in my power to reverse it. >> joining us now, laura grow order, she is the campaign manager for stacey abrams gubernatorial campaign in georgia. you came in second last time by 1.4% of the vote. that was the gap between the same two candidates four years ago. , four years ago brian kemp had donald trump's endorsement. and had the campaigning with him. he's not would have that this time. well that alone make up for the 1.4%? >> one of the things that is happening here in georgia and around the country is the importance of governors. it is being made crystal clear. so your question leads to the road decision. which is that women find brian kemp's six-week abortion ban that he signed in 2019 that will be going to effect in a matter of weeks. women across race and a cross
7:54 pm
demographics find this disqualifying. because this is about medical care. and women know that they don't even though they're pregnant at six weeks. so the chilling effect this has on our ob/gyn, over half of them don't have this. but this is going to medical care and health care for women's devastating. when you look at the maga faction that is not sure what they think about brian kemp, this is clarifying to them that these radical extremists, he's dangerous, but is showing the truth to the rest of our voters. like who he really is and he is dangerous to georgia's women. and yes that is going to be part of the reason we close that gap. and like stacey abrams as governor of georgia. >> what else is the math in the second time around? new voters in georgia. people turning 18? is there any place you hope to get that 1.4%?
7:55 pm
>> there are two things on the issue and one of the numbers i would say. ryan campus that he's not quick to stop at the six-week ban. he has been on the record saying should role be overturned he would go back to the legislator and acts were a complete and total ban on abortion. so that is number one. that is disqualifying. number two brian kemp signed a permit-less carry law allowing anyone to carry a concealed weapon handgun. that means that you can carry law feel a concealed gun without a background check because of the loopholes in the state. that is disqualifying. well to those issues, the abortion ban in guns, are so wildly unpopular with about 70% of voters republicans don't even university agree with him. so this is going to be a huge thing. go to stacey abrams talk calm to learn about our plans. and we're gonna close the gap this time around. we're going to win. >> thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you lawrence. >> we'll be right back. lawrence. lawrence. >> we'llrt!
7:56 pm
if you're using multiple systems, re-entering data over and over time sheet! using email and spreadsheets to manage information and approvals, with paycom, employees enter and manage their own hr data in a single, easy-to-use software. visit paycom dot com and schedule your demo today. do they know this door is locked [lazer beam and sizzling sounds] ♪♪ this is john. he hasn't worked this hard to only get this far with his cholesterol. taken with a statin, leqvio can lower bad cholesterol and keep it low with two doses a year. side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, urinary tract infection, diarrhea, chest cold, pain in legs or arms,
7:57 pm
and shortness of breath. with leqvio, lowering cholesterol becomes just one more thing life throws your way. ask your doctor about leqvio. lower. longer. leqvio. (grandmother) thank you for taking me home. it's so far. (young woman). longer. don't worry about it, grandma! this'll be fun. (young woman) two chocolate milkshakes, please. (grandmother) make it three. (young woman) three? (grandmother) did you get his number? (young woman) no, grandma! grandma!! (grandmother) excuse me! (young woman vo) some relationships get better with time. that's why i got a crosstrek. (avo) ninety-six percent of subaru vehicles sold in the last ten years are still on the road. (grandmother) i'm so glad you got a subaru. (young woman) i wonder who gave me the idea? (avo) love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. what if i sleep hot? ...or cold? no problem. the sleep number 360 smart bed is temperature balancing, so you both stay comfortable and can help you get almost 30 minutes more restful sleep per night. the queen sleep number 360 c2 smart bed is only $899. plus, 0% interest for 36 months. ends monday. ♪♪♪ my name is austin james.
7:58 pm
as a musician living with diabetes, fingersticks can be a real challenge. that's why i use the freestyle libre 2 system. with a painless, one-second scan i know my glucose numbers without fingersticks. now i'm managing my diabetes better and i've lowered my a1c from 8.2 to 6.7. take the mystery out of managing your diabetes and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free at - [female narrator] they line up by the thousands. now you know. each one with a story that breaks your heart. like ravette... every step, brought her pain. their only hope: mercy ships. the largest floating civilian hospital in the world. bringing free surgeries to people who have no other hope. $19 a month will help provide urgently needed surgery for so many still suffering. so don't wait, call the number on your screen. or donate at firefighter 1: it's like a bomb dropped. firefighter 2: i've seen neighborhoods destroyed,
7:59 pm
lives lost, and firefighters risking their lives. firefighter 1: friends. parents. children. firefighter 3: the smoke is getting worse, ruining the air throughout the state. firefighter 1: but we don't have to settle for all the destruction and the air that we can't breathe. firefighter 2: we can prevent and contain fires. save lives. and clean the air. firefighter 1: we can do better. there's a reason comcast business powers more businesses than any other provider. actually, there's a few... comcast business offers the fastest, reliable network... the protection of securityedge™ and the most reliable 5g network. want me to keep going? i can... whether your small business is starting or growing, you need comcast business. technology solutions that put you ahead. get a great offer on internet and security, now with more speed and more bandwidth. plus find out how to get up to a $650 prepaid card >> the january six committee with a qualifying bundle.
8:00 pm
hearings will begin at 1 pm, tomorrow, eastern. you can watch it live here on msnbc. and then, i will join rachel for msnbc's special primetime coverage recap of the hearing, tomorrow night, starting at 8 pm eastern. and then, at 10 pm, we will be back here, with another addition of the last word. that is tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. >> word. the 11th hour tonight, new evid witness testimony prompted january 6th committee to call a surprise hearing tomorrow, as a defense sees the phone of a former guy's lawyer. what we are learning tonight? bless, the continued fallout over the reversal of roe v. wade. more states banning abortion with a new legal battles already underway. and a scramble for services in multiple states. then,