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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  June 29, 2022 3:00am-6:00am PDT

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president take me up to the capitol now. the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engle grabbed his arm. mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge towards bobby engle. the valet had articulated that the president was extremely angry at the attorney general's ap interview. and had thrown his lunch against the wall. >> they were literally calling for the vice president to go f'ing home. and he responded you heard him, he thinks he deserves it. said something to the effect of and very clearly, mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood's going to be on your f'ing hands. >> a former aide, delivered a bombshell at the january 6
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hearing. cassidy hutchinson testified that donald trump and chief of staff mark meadows ignored warnings about potential violence before the attack and did nothing to stop it once the attack was under way. according to hutchinson, trump knew there were weapons in the crowd but during his speech at the ellipse, still ordered his supporters to march to the capitol. and new details about efforts close to trump to intimidate witnesses who have cooperated in the congressional investigation. good morning, welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, june 29th. it seems that history bends every day this week. mika, we, of course, had the supreme court decision last friday. and yesterday, had the most -- testimony on capitol hill since watergate, what was your takeaway? >> well from my perspective, it was revealed, exposed really that the men around trump are
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weak, feckless cowards who had this pathetic need to be close to a failed president. and they almost destroyed our democracy. and they almost got away with it. and it took the strength, and i was really taken by this, of a young woman's character to show america the truth and in the process show us the true meaning of courage and patriotism. she's 25 years old. this is a young woman who not just knows her value, but knows the value of our country, of our democracy. and these weak, honestly, these men around trump are an embarrassment, honestly. a global embarrassment. and she revealed that yesterday. >> they're weak and feckless, they're unpatriotic. really, willie, my god, we learned yesterday you had trump's general who took the fifth when asked if he believed
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in peaceful transitions of power. we had a chief of staff who was told that there were guns, knives, spear, weapons in the crowd. his staff members rushed in to tell mark meadows. mark meadows just kept down looking down at his phone. could not care less. and so much more. what was your takeaway, willie? >> i thought mika nailed it. as i listened to that, my god, the abject cowardice of mark meadows sitting on this phone. what do you want me to do about it? yeah, he thinks mike pence should be hanged. what am i to do about that? a 24-year-old, a couple years out of college, she was the adult in the room surrounded by those ostensible adults and ostensible leaders who stood by and let it happen. we talked a lot about how the hearings will land. i'll just show you the front
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pages of the papers that i've got here. this is "the new york times" talking about donald trump encouraging violence and set to join the mob on the front page of the "wall street journal," trump knew the crowd was armed and sent it to the capitol. and even "new york post," tyrant trump on the "new york post." that was another one of my takeaways, joe. it was a tourist visit, they didn't even have weapons. now, we know from police communication and eyewitness testimony from people in the white house that there were people with ar-15s. the president was told about that, what was his response? lose the mags, the magnetometers. he didn't want attacked. now we know why the committee rush back from recess to put this witness and efforts to
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discredit her. we're going to get into it. she was mark meadows' right hand. she saw and heard everything. >> she saw and heard everything. and there was so much to take away from it yesterday. but willie, underlining something that you ed, donald trump knew there were weapons in the crowd. when he knew that, he started yelling and screaming, he was enraged. and he was ordering that the mags got taken away. and he said, they can come in with the weapons. they're not here to hurt me. >> right. >> then they can go up to the capitol. so donald trump wanted these people with weapons to get past security, so they can go up to the capitol after listening to him. >> yeah. >> and launch an insurrection. he also, we learned yesterday, wanted to be up there. wanted -- there was talk of him going into the house chamber with this armed mob, it's very
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clear, very clear, he had nothing short of a coup on his mind. >> yeah. >> let's also bring in u.s. special correspondent from bbc news katty kay, host, executive producer of "the circus" on show time, john heilemann and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg. we're going to get to them in a minute, but, mika, let's first go through yesterday's testimony. >> yesterday's hearing focused radio transmissions from police officers who spotted weapons in the crowd on january 6. hutchinson said both mark meadows and former president trump were aware of the situation. >> you also described a brief meeting between mr. ornado and mr. meadows on a potential for violence. the meeting was on january 4th. they were talking about the potential for violence on january 6. let's listen to a clip of that testimony. >> i remember mr. ornado had
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talked about intelligence reports. i remember mr. ornado coming in and saying he had intel reports there could potentially be violence on the 6th. >> now, of course the world now knows that the people that attacked the capitol on january 6th had many different types of weapons. when the president speaks, the secret service requires those to pass through metal detectors, known as magnetometers, or mags. the people who entered the enclosed area for president trump's speech were screened so they could attend the rally at the ellipse. they had weapons and other items that were confiscated. pepper spray, knives, brass knuckles, tasers, body armors, gas masks, batons, blunt weapons. and those were just people who chose to go through security for the president's event on the ellipse. the select committee has learned about reports from outside the
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magnetometers, and has obtained police radio transmissions identifying individuals with firearms, including ar-15s near the ellipse on the morning of january 6. let's listen. >> individuals entering, a white male, about 6 feet tall. brown cowboy boots, he's got blue jeans, blue jean jacket. underneath the blue jean jacket an ar-15, with a group of individuals about five to eight individuals. individuals in that group wearing green jackets, six white males, brown cowboy boots and glock style pistols.
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>> it's on his right hip. >> make sure they know they have an elevated threat in the trees outside of constitution avenue. with the american flag face mask. cowboy boots, weapon, weapon on the right side hip. >> i've got three men walking down the street with ar-15s. copy. >> miss hutchinson, in prior testimony, you described for us a meeting in the white house around 10:00 a.m. in the morning of january 6th. involving chief of staff meadows and tony ornado. were you in that meeting? >> i was. >> let's listen to your testimony about that meeting then we'll have some questions. >> i think the last time we talked you mentioned that some of the weapons that people had at the rally includes flag poles, oversized sticks, or flag
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poles, bear spray. is there anything else that you recall hearing about the people who were gathered in the attack? >> i recall tony and i having a conversation with mark probably around 10:00 a.m., 10:15 a.m., where i remember tony mentioning knives, guns, in the form of pistols and rifles, bear spray, body armor, spears and flag poles. spears were one thing and flag poles something tony related to me something to the effect of these f'ing people are putting spears on the end of flag poles. >> is it your understanding that mr. ornado told the president about weapons on the morning of january 6? >> that's what mr. ornado related to me. >> here's how you characterized mr. meadows' general response when people raised concerns about what could happen on january 6th.
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>> so, at the time of the day of the 6th, there were lots of public reports about how things might go bad. and directly that mr. meadow did not share those concerns, or at least did not act on those concerns? >> did not act on those concerns would be accurate. >> yeah, that would be accurate. john heilemann, they told the chief of staff and the president of the united states that there were people with ar-15s, with weapons, marching toward the capitol. meadows kept looking at his phone. could not care less. it's an extraordinary moment. he really played the role of a pontius pilate. while american democracy, about to be crucified by this armed mob, he said, i'm going to wash
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my hands of it. more dangerous in that moment than erlichman or halderman or joe mccarthy, because american democracy was actually on the line. and he refused to do anything about it, because it might damage his standing with a failed president. >> i mean, joe, i don't even know where to begin. we talked yesterday in realtime about this because we were both so sort of stunned by what we saw. and i definitely will say that mark meadows, who was already at the very center of this investigation before yesterday is now -- yeah, i don't know if he could be more at the center of it. but the committee obviously has its eyes on him and the pressure is going to mount on him. in terms of his potential criminal culpability certainly is more than political culpability. i don't want to obscure the larger picture which is what you guys were talking about before,
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either the most extraordinary or certainly in the running for the most extraordinary testimony in the history of the country. potentially, the most consequential, for the reasons you and willie and mika were talking about before. you know, what we now know about trump's intent, what he knew, what he did, what he thought, and as the committee is not done yet building that case makes it almost impossible, i would think, to not -- the basis for criminal charges is now so abundantly clear. and the pressure on the justice department what we've learned about donald trump's mind-set where he was will ogg do the things he said and thought and things he was ready to let go is just kind of overwhelming. and the last thing i'd say, it may be the most in terms of that with john dean in that, the scene that we heard and recounted about donald trump's behavior in the presidential limousine i would say is maybe the craziest thing ever
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described by a president of the united states ever. i mean, when you talk about it all day long, but the notion of the president of the united states trying to grab the wheel of the limousine and get into a physical altercation with his protective detail. and lunging apparently for the throat of one of them is so off the charts bonkers that i still am having a hard time processing it now, 18 hours later. i mean, it truly speaks to a degree of madness and unhingedness at least on that day, that even the sternist critics of donald trump have not yet previously been willing to contemplate. it's really something. >> we're going to dig into that part of the story in just a little while. the secret service disputes that and will present witnesses to testify to that. despite those around the ellipse, president trump allegedly became angry when they found out the screening devices,
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magnetometers would stop the supporters from entering the target area. he said those are his people, they're not coming for me or that his armed supporters were planning on marching to the capitol. but he was concerned that turning the people away would make the rally crowd smaller. >> he was furious because he wanted the arena that we had on the ellipse to be maxed out of capacity for all attendees. >> i overheard the president say something to the fact of, i don't care that they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me, take the f'ing mags away. >> the president apparently wanted all attendees inside the official rally space and repeatedly said, quote, they're not here to hurt me. >> and just to be clear, so he was told again, that in that
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conversation, or was he told again in that conversation, that people couldn't come to the mags because they had weapons? >> correct. >> and that people -- and his response was to say they can march to the capitol from -- from the ellipse. >> something to the effect of take the f'ing knives away. they're not here to hurt me. let them in. let my people in. they can march to the capitol after the rally is over. they can march from the ellipse. take the f'ing mags away. then they can march to the capitol. >> it comes full circle, katty kay, talking about that and the insurrection. but this time it was an armed mob to go to the capitol and do god knows what. perhaps hang mike pence, go after nancy pelosi and others. >> yeah, says a lot about that presidency, that it began and ended with the extent of the
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crowds. to the extend he's saying i don't care if they have to go through screening, let them bring their arms and weapons which he knew about into the rally and march because i want to make sure that the crowd outside the ellipse where i am standing that the shots on television show that crowd is big. it wasn't enough for him that they were on the other side of the street and up on the mall, because that was too far away, wouldn't show it. i witched while i was watching the hearing yesterday to watch them on fox news, and it was really interesting. the commentary on fox, each on fox news which, remember, initially didn't even show the committee hearings, the very first one was saying that it was devastating. they had a former prosecutor on really raising questions saying, look, this is pointing towards the justice department having to take up a criminal case against donald trump. and that word "devastating" was used. and there was really no pushback from the fox news hosts. they were all just as clearly just as shocked as we all were by cassidy hutchinson's
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testimony yesterday. >> the january 6 committee also presented recorded testimony from trump's former national security adviser michael flynn who pleaded the fifth at some crucial and fairly basic questions. >> do you believe the violence on january 6 was justified? >> can we have a minute? >> yes. >> all right. i'm back. congresswoman cheney, could you repeat the question, please? >> yes. general flynn do you believe the violence on january 6 was justified? >> can i get a clarification? is that a moral question or a legal question? >> i'm asking both.
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>> i said -- >> do you believe the violence on january 6 was justified morally? >> take the fifth. >> do you believe the violence on january 6 was justified legally? >> fifth. >> general flynn, do you believe in the peaceful transition of power in the united states of america? >> the fifth. >> just talking, here we have a guy -- here we have a guy who along with donald trump said that anybody taking the fifth was guilty. in so many words. as donald trump famously said, the mob takes the fifth. you had flynn also going after
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some i.t. guy for hillary clinton who took the fifth talking about how it proved that he was guilty. here, flynn is asked whether -- whether he thought the violence was wrong on january 6. whether the mob attacks were wrong. he sat there, first of all, looking, you know, looking just confused. >> yeah. and then they went off camera to talk about it. >> i don't know if he's well. >> my god. >> he said, i plead the fifth. and then do you believe in the peaceful transition of power in the united states of america? and you plead the fifth? to that. these people -- you know -- >> corrupted. >> it's not as bad as we thought it was. it's so much worse. it really is. and yes, that you think at some point you'll reach the bottom,
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there's no bottom for people like michael flynn. there's no bottom for people like mark meadows. there's obviously no bottom for people like donald trump. they hate the concept of western democracy. they hate the concept of liberal democracy. they hate the concept of madisonian democracy. of separation of powers. being frustrated by the fact that you can't be a tyrant. and because of that, it appears they all may have committed grievous crimes. and, chuck, let's turn to you. i really -- listen. we've been doing the show long enough that at the end of the bush administration i was telling democrats, you don't want -- you don't want to go
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after a former president on criminal charges. it sets a bad example. and it will happen at the end of every administration. at the end of the obama administration, there were people that were going back citing what obama people had done saying well, he used drones to kill americans. gave them absolutely no due process. and i go, you don't want to do that. we can't go there as a nation. chuck, at this point, you literally have a benedict arnold trying to subvert the american experiment. i just don't know how merrick garland turns a blind eye to this. what did you see yesterday that you found most compelling legally? >> i only get to pick one thing, joe? >> no, it's potpourri, baby.
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legal potpourri, you go where you want to go. >> a bunch of things. and first, you talked about it a bit, the notion that the president of the united states understood that people were heavily armed and at his rally. and others were, you know, outside of the rally, but they weren't there to hurt him which begs the question, joe, who were they there to hurt? any functional adult, let alone any president, any functional adult, would have said this is crazy. this is out of hand. shut this thing down now. what do i need to make sure that people are safe and well? we didn't hear a word of that. and to me, that evinces intent. certainly, evinces knowledge. it's at the very least, at the very best a moral failing. also the allusion to witness tampering. i was a prosecutor for a long time. witness tampering can be blatant. i've seen people's homes get fire bombed or get beaten with a
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baseball bat. and witness tampering can be subtle. hey, joe, you're a loyal guy. you'll protect what needs to be done, don't you, joe? those are both types of witness tampering. now, i don't know who tampered with whom. cassidy hutchinson didn't hell us that. congresswoman cheney didn't tell us that. but the committee knows and the department of justice will find this out. and the entire department of justice is predicated, predicated on people telling the truth. so when someone interferes and trying to, you know, joe, you're a loyal guy you'll protect who needs to be protected, that strikes at the core of the justice system. and that is often a cover-up. and i imagine there's a lot of interest in that, in the department of justice. >> oh, for sure.
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you know, joe, trump always talking about manly man, all the guys around him are manly men. big, strong, tough. they always talk about being strong. on his little website, he started going after cassidy hutchinson for actually having the guts to go under oath and testify before the american people. and i will tell you, there's a question here, do these men -- could sniveling pathetic frightened little men like mark meadows and others, and you know donald trump is already there, do they really want to allow people to go after her from the far right, trump himself going after her? because somebody needs to come forward. and that's what the committee chair at the end of the hearing said. if you have found some courage, if you have found your memory, come forward and help corroborate this testimony, because we will get it one way or another. and in the face of attacks that this woman is going to take from
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the right. she probably has heavy security at this point, i will tell you, they leave her hanging, my god, they don't even have a speck of honor. they're not men. >> well, they don't have a speck -- they don't have a speck of honor. nothing honorable about them. but somebody did come forward. and her name is cassidy hutchinson. and they have so much information. >> yes. >> others have come forward. willie, we know so much of what happened on january 6 now inside of the white house because of cassidy. there are other people that will come forward. i know you brought up, before, the secret service testimony. there were people that were there, there were people that recounted it in front of the secret service agent. that secret service agent didn't say it wasn't true. which i think what you have in a case like that is secret service
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doesn't want to testify against any president that they're doing detail on. and i certainly understand that. >> yeah. >> but put that aside that and plates being thrown. >> against the wall. >> that's color commentary, okay? that's howard cosell, and that danny on "monday night football." the play-by-play is frank gifford. and this is the play-by-play. the play-by-play is donald trump knew there were heavily armed rioters that were moving towards his speech. he wanted secret service to take down the mags, let them enter. and donald trump volunteers and then they can go straight to the capitol. warning them to go to the capitol and not have their weapons taken away. they wanted to go there with them. they talked about going to the house of representatives, with this mob, and donald trump
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strutting in like benito mussolini declaring himself the president of the united states. it's delayed out. mark meadows, hey, mark, i've known you for a long time, buddy, you're in deep shit. you're in the middle of this conspiracy. you may want to get yourself a really, really good defense attorneys. to quote donald trump, you may want to get one of those. oh, wait, here's an idea, mark. you can do something that you've refused to do for years now. you can show courage and you can tell the truth. hey. mark -- donald trump won't protect you. he will throw you under the bus. he will stab you in the back. he will let you rot in jail.
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defend the country. or, well, get ready to pay a criminal defense attorney a lot of money. what do we have next? >> at the very least. all right. still ahead on "morning joe," much more on yesterday's bombshell hearing, including more on vice chair liz cheney's warning to trump allies about attempts to influence or intimidate witnesses. plus, we'll be joined by house select committee member jamie raskin on the heels of cassidy hutchinson's revealing testimony. also this morning in a huge blow to russia, nato leaders ha reached a deal with turkey to allow sweden and finland to join the alliance. we'll talk to admiral james stavridis about the significance of that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> as a staffer that works to always represent the
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administration to the best of my ability and to showcase the good things that he had done for the country, i remember feeling frustrated, disappointed and really it felt personal. it was really sad. as an american, i was disgusted. it was unpatriotic. it was un-american, that we were watching the capitol building get defaced over a lie. and it was something that was really hard in that moment to digest, knowing what i'd been hearing down the hall. and the conversations that were happening, seeing that tweet come up and knowing what was happening on the hill. and it's something that i still struggle to work through the emotions of that.
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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it is 6:34 a.m. in the morning, sun rising over washington, d.c. and the white house. wow. a lot went on inside of that building on january the 6th. we heard a lot of it yesterday. and, of course, you know, willie, we've been saying for some time, and i saw this as a lawyer, not a good one, i saw this as a lawyer, surrounded by good lawyers, how collection of evidence, how you build up a case. how you get phone records. you get texts, you get emails. you get all of the receipts. and then you have the
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deposition. and then you move toward trial. and you corner people. and they can't lie themselves out of that corner. and that's something that, of course, donald trump is desperately trying to do because he knows just how devastating yesterday's testimony is. but chances are very good he and the few weasels that are left around him are not going to be able to weasel out of miss hutchinson's testimony yesterday. >> yeah, i think that's important to say when people say why aren't people coming forward. a ton of people in the trump white house have come forward. look at the testimony we've seen. it's almost entirely from former white house aides, loyalists to president trump, his attorney general, i vania, jared, they've got almost every, mark meadows doesn't show up to testify, that's true. but also, he turned in almost 6,000 text messages in and around january 6.
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so that committee has a really good sense of his role what was going on at that time so they do have some documents. another good point you made, joe, maybe cassidy hutchinson inspiring people to come forward. it was interesting to start to see on social media, some people you might not expect like mick mulvaney, he tweeted this, just to clarify, given her position, there was probably no one closer to meadows than cassidy hutchinson, as an s.a.p., former aide, she'd be privy to everything that meadows did say and heard. and my guess is that before this is over, we will be hearing testimony from onnado, ingie and meadows. if cassidy is making this up. if she is they'll have to corroborate. i know her, i don't think she's lying. >> wow. >> again, that's the chief of staff loyal to donald trump wrote the infamous "wall street
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journal" op-ed who said if donald trump loses he'll go away, of course that goes down in infamy. we talked about the witness tampering we heard at the end. congresswoman liz cheney praised witnesses for having the courage to testify before the panel. and showed statements allegedly from trump associates before giving their depositions to the committee. >> our committee commonly asks witness connected to mr. trump administration or campaign, whether they've been contacted by any of their former colleagues or anyone else who attempted to influence or impact their testimony. here's how one witness described the phone calls from people interested in that witness's testimony. quote, what they said to me is as long as i continue to be a team player, they know that i'm on the right team. i'm doing the right thing. i'm protecting who i need to protect. you know, i'll continue to stay in good graces in trump world.
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and they have reminded me a couple of times that trump does read transcripts and just to keep that in mind as i proceed through my interviews with the committee. here's another sample. in a different context. this is a call received by one of our witnesses. quote, a person let know you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. >> chuck rosenberg, that's the gambino crime family contacting somebody before they go in for a deposition. what could be the implications we don't know who said that yet, but that's sort of a tease of coming attractions when the committee gets back together in a couple of weeks. what would be the implications for whoever sent those messages? >> they could be dire, willie.
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as i started to say earlier, our entire system of justice is predicated on people coming forth and telling the truth. i mean, that's how it works. you take an oath to tell the truth. jurors take an oath to judge impartially. it's all based on truth-telling and a hearing to the oath. and these are all buzzwords, by the way. protect who you need to protect. we know you're loyal. you're a team player, willie. these are all buzzwords. they're trying to undermine that truth-telling function. so, i think consequences could be dire. we have to know who said it, to whom they said it, when they said it, why they said it, at whom's request they were saying it but conceivably that's obstruction of justice and often a cover-up. we know that from lots and lots of cases. i've put hundreds if not thousands of witnesses on the stand as a prosecutor.
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i don't urge them to be a team player. i say, look, you're going to be under oath, you need to tell the truth, if you don't tell the truth under oath, i don't care who it is you're trying to help you're in a hell of a lot of trouble. your obligation is to tell the truth. so these things that you're hearing from liz cheney at the end of the hearing yesterday to me are alarming. again, we need to know who it was that said it and to whom. this is the core of the function and deeply dangerous to our system. >> and john heilemann, it's like we're getting a tease, obviously, of things to come. by the way, the one thing i remember yesterday morning when i was talking about this hearing, i said the january 6 committee, they played everything right. they've done an exceptionally good job of rolling out all of this evidence presenting it in a way that the american people follow easily. but i think they're also playing their hand here. an emergency -- an emergency witness. an emergency hearing.
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of course, they didn't overplay their hand at all. and then at the end, we find out about this witness tampering. and there's that statement from chairman bennie thompson saying, you still have time. >> got a chance. >> you still have -- >> still a chance. >> you know what, i just want you to know, i just want you to know, before you start getting ready to get your criminal defense attorneys and going to jail, i just want you to know, our door is still open. if you lied, if you need, as they say in the business, some time to refresh your recollection and maybe go back and clean up previous testimony, the door's open. the water's warm. come on in. but like noah's ark, that door is going to close soon. >> yeah, and, joe, i think the point that you're making is so important. when these hearings started, a
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lot of us talked about the challenge that they faced, the committee members, to break through in this polarized political environment. this fragmented media environment. you know, the two impeachments of donald trump did not break through to the american people. the question was, did they learn the lessons of those two impeachments. as a matter of political persuasion and telling stories, right? and i think that they've not only met that challenge, but they put on a master class here. i mean in every respect. the choice to turn this in to not just get rid of normal theatrics to get rid of opening statements to get rid of preening camera-hogging people in a fashion that has been brilliant but you just said the most important thing which is what they have done is something i've never seen a congressional
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committee do before which is to grasp the most important element of story-telling narrative which is to keep people interested you have to keep them asking the question what happens next. if you can get a reader or a viewer to be asking that question at every interval, what happens next. i can't wait to see what happens next. they are hooked and i think this is a huge challenge for this committee. again, i've never seen it before. but the thing they've done has been masterful in terms of isolating on specific stories, specific elements of the larger story they're trying to tell. and bringing people along, beat by beat, to the point where people who had no idea they were interested are now riveted. and even people watching the hearings are getting a sense of what's going on with them because so many people are repeating the high points and they're focusing owe intensely on those high points it's been quite stunning how much it exceeded the expectations that anybody had for them. >> chuck rosenberg, just closing out with the three points you
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started with. trump knew they were armed. trump knew they were not there to hurt him. allusions potentially potentially to witness tampering. getting a sense here what the committee's role is versus the justice department, you mentioned consequences could be dire. by whom, for whom? >> well, that was with respect to witness tampering, but more broadly mika, to your question, witnesses can be dire to people who broke the law. here's something to keep in mind, a little bit of math, i know it's early. but a little bit of math, the committee has spoken to the committee 4,000 hours of deposition testimony. we've now heard 10 or 12. as the prosecutor i want to hear the other 99.5%, right? before i make a prosecutorial decision i want to know where my case is strong and i want to know where it's weak? i want to know where it can be challenged and where the inconsistencies are. i agree with john, in
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particular, that this has been a devastating presentation of facts, but prosecutors need to look at the other 99.5%. we don't have it the committee does. i assure you that the department of justice eithers that or will get it and will have more than the committee in toward make prosecutorial predictions about witness tampering or sedition or anything else we need to look at all of the evidence. so it's often tempting to know what we have with the stuff that we've done. the committee has done a good job telling a linear and cogent story. complete a agree with that. before i make a prosecutorial decision, before i know my case can stand up in court i want to see everything, mika. >> understood. chuck rosenberg and john heilemann, thank you both for being with us early this morning. we have even more from the hearing just ahead, including a remarkable scene in the west wing that cassidy hutchinson
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described of white house counsel pat cipollone during the january 6th riot pleading with mark meadows for president trump to do something to stop the rioters to hang mike pence. and meadows responding trump won't do anything, quote, he thinks mike deserves it. also ahead, keir simmons joins us live from spain where nato leaders are meeting and developing a new strategic response to russia's invasion of ukraine. meanwhile, the alliance is adding two more members, historic. former nato supreme allied commander james stavridis joins us with more insight on why this is a major blow to vladimir putin. we'll be right back. vladimir putin. we'll be right back. ♪
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(police radio call) (sirens) (news report) (sirens) (news report) on this day two of the nato summit in madrid, the focus remains on building strength and unity among members as russia's war in ukraine continues.
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president biden pledged to boost american military operations in europe by creating permanent headquarters for the army corps in poland. as well as strengthening air support in the uk, germany, italy and spain. in a moment when putin has shattered peace in europe and attacked nato is as important as it ever has been. and now looking to add two more members in finland and sweden. joining us from madrid, nbc international correspondent keir simmons. what are they saying about national aggression and adding now as turkey steps aside the coalition of finland and sweden? >> reporter: well, you know, i expect the white house would be happy to see the attention focused on the january 6 hearings, but here in madrid, president biden is honestly leading a transformation in nato's posture. you mentioned that deal to allow
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sweden and finland to join nato, persuading turkey to get out the way on that. and then you mentioned, just this morning, president biden making that announcement of major new force deployment, just to add to something you already outlined maintaining a brigade of 3,000 troops in romania, enhanced deployments to the baltic states. two more f-35 fighter jet squadrons to the united kingdom. the list goes on the question of what defense would look like offense in russia what we're seeing in nato is a generational change. >> reporter: responding to russia's invasion of ukraine involving more than 100,0 russian troops nato is set to put a force of 300,000 on high alert. an unprecedented escalation, seven times the current time, as
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the roman general once said, if you want peace, prepare for war. >> those 300,000 nato troops on high alert increase the risk of a direct conflict with russia or make europe safer? >> make europe safer, of course. russia is now the aggressor in ukraine. russia attacked ukraine. and russia -- russia is a threat for -- for europe. but not only for europe, but for whole nato. this is a very clear situation now. >> you have to be ready. and you can only reduce the confrontation by being strong. this is what we learned in the 1980s. and this is what we are learning again and affect that interest in the eastern flank and in this defer is very important. >> reporter: but the western response to ukraine has russia reacting a kind of geopolitical
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tit for tat, nato member lithuania, now openly for the kremlin to leningrad. >> is your view that the best form of defense is offense? >> we're not offense in this country, we do not want to attack anybody. but, of course, we understand very much those threats which are coming. and probably nobody could understand the threat from russia better than me. >> is it a fight for democracy? >> it is a fight for democracy. and this is not a fight that's happened now in ukraine. this is not just the fight of one country against another country. we have to stop vladimir putin and russia in ukraine. otherwise, it will be continuation of this aggression. >> reporter: the u.s. has a lot invested in this tense standoff. 100,000 american troops are stationed in europe, preparing for a shift in posture. this week, leaders including president biden, meeting in the spanish capital will update
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nato's strategy. cause a strategic concept, the last one described russia as a potential partner. this time it will say explicitly russia is a threat. an unmistakable message from here in madrid to moscow. moscow claims it's not surprised. this month, nato will meet in madrid, and it will publish its new strategic concept. >> yeah. >> reporter: the first in a decade. >> naming russia as a direct threat. >> reporter: this is the kremlin spokesman speaking to me last week, repeating russia's accusations that nato has always been an offensive, not defensive, organization. >> it was tailored to the gun. >> reporter: it's a message that kremlin is telling the russian people every day. this government funded moscow exhibition is called nato, catalog of cruelty. >> nato from day of determination to present day
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constitutional kind of complicity -- kind of major defense between peaceful rhetoric, and actual policy. >> reporter: every nato controversy is on display. president putin earned interest in russia joining nato is brushed over. the exhibition ends on ukraine. >> here we have anti-tank missile containers waiting uk for years now. nato has been providing ukrainian military with weapons, equipment, basically, nurturing and helping the ukraine military. >> reporter: >> reporter: this looking for justification for russia's about indications in ukraine in the past months? >> maybe it looks like it but what we're looking to -- i don't want to say is make people, but what we're trying to do, guide
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people, in that people see. >> reporter: nato and russia sizing each other up in ways not seen for a generation. both sides saying it has no other option. and, of course, joe, those criticisms of nato from russia would just be absolutely dismissed by the leaders here in madrid. they've heard them so many times. just to under score that i've seen the u.s. official report briefing this morning that the u.s. has not reported about changes in u.s. forces and there is no requirement to do so. joe. >> all right. nbc's keir simmons as always, thank you so much live for us in madrid. of course, fascinating that there you actually had droughts of nato atrocities. we show you russian war crimes every day.
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the targeting of teenagers in malls. the targeting of mothers in wards. targeting of cancer patients in hospitals. the targeting of farmers, the targeting of civilians. and yes, the targeting of buildings that are marked children, with children inside. the targeting of children. it's monstrous. it's monstrous. i will say, though, you listen to the actual reporting there on what joe biden -- what the administration, what the united states is doing, and, listen, but democrats and republicans together are doing,ness transformative it's remarkable you look at harry truman from 1927 to 1949, he created the world that we lived in with nato with the marshall plan. it was the truman plan but he left marshall's name on it
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because he felt it would pass more. the berlin and all things that harry truman did, even though he was having problems with his approval rating, he transformed the world. here we are, 75, 80 years later -- i guess 75 years later from '49. here we have another transformation. and we're moving the center from formerly west berlin and germany, we're moving it east where the real security threat is where russia invaded georgia in 2008, ukraine in 2013. shooting down commercial airplanes. going into crimea. invading ukraine again. that's where the new security is. and to talk about it, let's bring in former nato supreme allied commander retired four-star admiral james stavridis he's he's also a chief
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onlies for nbc news. admiral, sweden and finland gets the pass from erdogan. and now they're becoming members of nato, that's extraordinary as you've explained before for strategic reasons. and now this presence in poland, how important will that be? not only to the united states and europe but also the global security. >> it is vital, joe. you know, if we're allowed to have good news once in a while, today is really a good news day at nato. i'm going to start where you point out with finland and sweden. these are nations that deserve to be in nato. we have wanted them for years. i used to stay in stockholm and helsinki, hey if you want to join nato, tell us on wednesday. you're so good, we'll have you in by friday.
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i am i'm not saying very, very happy that president erdogan decided to step away from his up position to this these two nations bring terrific higher cyber. the swedes, for example, manufacture superb aircraft, the griffin. they fought with us in afghanistan, they fought with us in libya. also finally on finland and sweden, they bring this northern flank and it creates massive problems for the kremlin in terms of their offensive military plan because now they've got to contend with an 800-mile border up to the north. and oh, by the way, sweden and finland are arctic nations bringing yet another angle to what nato puts together. so very good day at nato. and sweden and finland, a huge plus up. and finally this addition of u.s. combat power alongside european combat power. it's really a package going together, but to deter russia
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pretty significantly. >> yeah, pretty significantly. and permanent, not a word that's been used in the past for u.s. presence in poland. the fact that we're talking about that now is also of great significance. we're at the top of the hour. we're going to be showing you a good deal of testimony and analyzing it for you. in a moment, but we have admiral stavridis with us right now, willie, on ourkatty, katty, on pretty extraordinary news yesterday. >> yeah, huge news for nato, the biggest news on certainly the alliance's recent history. 20,000 forces from finland. 14,000 from sweden, those are just active duty troops they have on reserve. big military, as you say, admiral, joining the nato alliance. talk about specifically what this means for the war in
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ukraine, where we're at, and what it may mean for vladimir putin in terms of that invasion? >> well, that distant sound you hear is vladimir putin's head exploding. i mean, this is a classic case of unintended consequences that are highly negative for the kremlin. for example, the finns have more artillery pieces than any other nation in europe. they have a highly capable ground hill pairing and have a deep antipathy towards russia. don't forget in 1939, the soviet union invaded finland. all of this bolsters the fighting spirit of ukrainians and brings real material capability. and finally, i just have to make a comment on that museum of nato atrocities. really? let's open the book of history. and i can show you again and again the pages of where the
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n tanks, the soviet tanks, have rolled to the west in budapest in '56. in prague in the czech republic of '68. threatening poland where we're now going to put troops forward, conquering their way and breaking their way across europe. i can show you that in the book of history. open that book of history and show me a page where nato attacked anybody. it's a defensive alliance. we're hear to create deterrence. today what nato has done will strengthen that. >> pure propaganda, even as joe said russia is attacking shopping malls in central ukraine. i want to ask you about that, admiral. just a snapshot of where you think the war is and now it's dragging on to its fifth month. some people's attention diverted obviously, so much going on in our country right now. gains made by russia in the east now attacking kyiv, attacking that shopping mall deeper inside now ukraine. what's your assessment of where this war is?
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where does the fight stand? >> it stands pretty centrally at thist, willie, in that southeast piece of land that vladimir putin is now fighting to permanently control. you're showing it on the map there. and his objective at this point is no longer to run the table to sweep across ukraine to put a bucket regime. he knows that will not happen. he's going to try to grind out a few more kilometers in the center of that red strip. and then towards the end of this this year, i think this burberry, his loss of troops and equipment, especially the war, will drive him towards desiring a negotiation. on our side of the line, our mission is to keep putting the tools in the hands of the ukrainians. give them the best negotiating position. and we will, in fact, by the end of this year, i am hopeful, both sides will want to drive towards negotiation. we need to give the ukrainians everything they need to put them
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in the best position for that negotiation. >> retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis, thank you very much, for your insight this morning. we are going to turn back now to the dramatic testimony from former white house aide cassidy hutchinson before the select committee investigating the january 6 attack on the capitol. we learned yesterday that former president trump knew that his supporters were armed at his rally on january 6. and that he wanted metal detectors removed so they could attend his rally and then meet him at the capitol. the former president is quoted as saying i don't f'ing care that they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me. and we want to play for you now the incredible scene that hutchinson described about trump's reaction when chief of staff mark meadows told him his supporters were chanting "hang mike pence." she takes us inside the west
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wing during the january 6th attack. and just a note that the jim who cassidy refers to here is republican congressman jim jordan. >> around 2:00 to 2:05 -- around 2:00 to 2:05, you know, we were watching the tv. i could see that the rioters were getting closer and closer to the capitol. mark popped out of his office or said, i went into his office and he was there on the couch on his cell phone, he was kind of scrolling and typing. i said, hey, are you watching the tv tube -- the tv is small. you could see it, right, i didn't know if he was paying attention. are you watching tv, too? yeah. the rioters are getting close. have you talked to the president? no, he wants to be alone right
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now. still looking at his phone. so i start to get frustrated because, you ar accident about to happen where you can't stop it. but you want to be able to do something. and i just remember -- i remember thinking in that moment, mark needs to snam out of this. and i don't know how to snap him out of it but he needs to care. and i blurted out, i said, mark, do you know where jim's at right now? he looked up at me and he said, jim? i said do you know where he's at right now? he said i haven't heard from him. i said you might want to check in with him, mark. i pointed to the tv.
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the rioters are getting close they might get in. he looked at it and said something to the effect, all right, i'll give him a calm. >> not long after the rioters broke into the capitol, you described what happened with white house counsel pat cipollone. >> no more than a minute, minute and a half later, i see pat cipollone barreling down the hallway towards our office. sand rush right in, looked at me, said is mark in his office? i said, yes. he just looked at me and started shaking his head. and went over and opened mark's office door. stood there with the door propped open. and said something to -- mark is still sitting on the phone, i remember glancing at him, he's still sitting on the phone. i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of the rioters have gotten to the capitol, mark. we need to see the president
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now. and mark looked up at him and said, he doesn't want to do anything, pat. and pat something to the effect of and very clearly, said this to mark, something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die, the blood is going to be on your f'ing hands. this is getting out of control. i'm going down there. at that point, mark stood up from the couch he's got the phone still. he walked out with pat. and he said let me know if jim calls. they walked out to the dining room. >> a few minutes later, representative jordan called back. >> a couple minutes later, so likely around -- between 2:15 and 2:25, another tweet went out at 2:24. i don't know if i was there when the tweet went out or it
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happened right afterwards. but jim had called. i answered the phone said, one second, i knew -- i guess he knew -- i introduced myself. i don't remember if he called my cell phone or if he had called one of mark's. and i said mark's down the hall, i'm going to hand the phone to him. he said okay. i went down, i asked the valet if mark was in the dining room. the valet said yes. i opened the door to the dining room, briefly stemmed in to get mark's attention. showed him the phone, like filmed the phone his way so he could see it said jim jordan. he stepped where i was tlang standing there propped the door open talking to jim. i took a few steps back. i probably was two feet from mark, standing in the doorway going into the oval office dining room. they had a brief examination. in the cross fire, i heard
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briefly what they were talking about. in the background, i heard conversations in the oval room about talking about the "hang mike pence" chants. >> and that ended the session with you recalling you heard the president, mr. meadows and the white house counsel discussing the "hang mike pence" chants. and then you described for us what happened next. >> it wasn't until mark hung up the phone, handed it back to me, i went back to my desk. a couple minutes later, him and pat came back, possibly eric herschmann, too. i'm pretty sure eric herschmann was there. pallet was there. i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for
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the vice president to be f'ing hung. and mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard it, pat, he think mike deserves it. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. to which pat said something, this is f'ing crazy. we need to be doing something more, briefly stepped into mark's office. and mark had said something -- mark said something to the effect he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong, knowing what i heard briefly in the dining room, coupled with pat discussing the "hang mike pence" chants in the lobby of our office and mark's response i understand there to be rioters in the capitol that were chanting for the vice president to be hung. >> let's bring in former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments elise jordan host of the podcast and donny deutsch.
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and nbc presidential historian michael beshlos. and professional in law john butler. michael, we'll start with you, how historic is this? >> this is as historic as it gets. i've spent a lot of time looking at a lot of testimony by all sorts of people before he congress complaining about things that presidents have done. i don't know anything more shocking than what i heard yesterday and i think it's going to change history because i can't see how this is not with mark meadows and others around donald trump to testify. and what are they going to show? what they're going to show is this? let me introduce something new, a historic moment, march 1, 1954. that was a moment that four puerto rican nationalist terrorists went into the galleries of the house chamber, same house chamber we're talking
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on the 6th of january. not much security in those days. nothing like magnetometers. they talked in and started shooting up the chamber. they wounded five members of congress. this was a terrorist incident. i don't think donald trump knew that history but there's every sign now that's the kind of scene he wanted on the 6th of january. because if you've got trump giving that provocative speech on the ellipse. and now thanks to what we heard from the testimony yesterday saying take down the magnetometers. let people with all sorts of guns and other weapons run wild and march up to the capitol, what else would he have had in mind? we could have seen the scene, they would have gone into the choose chamber, shot all sorts of members of congress who were on the house floor. we know that they were running after the office of nancy pelosi other members of congress.
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they were screaming "hang mike pence." there was a gallows outside, i don't know who put it up. but there was evidence pointing to donald trump as the centerpiece to take down democracy and stop the peaceful transfer of power which would have destroyed our democracy, central democratic tradition. and you could have had a mass assassination. mitt romney had to go running away from the people invading the capitol. that's what we would have seen and it all goes back to what donald trump was doing in the west wing on the 6th of january. >> michael, let me take you back to another day on capitol hill, in the 1950s. actually, it was on june 1, 1950. margaret shea smith, nervously waits outside about to go in and speak in the senate chamber, joe
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mccarthy just four months earlier had started his witch hunt against americans claiming that they were communists. and mccarthy cornered her saying i hear you're going to make a speech. she nervously said, i am, and you're not going to like it. she went out and she delivered her declaration of a conscience speech. and really, we have then, like we have now, we had a woman willing to step forward, make a courageous stand, when all the men around her were cowards. it's just remarkable. and what is so remarkable is even dwight eisenhower would not stand up for his mentor general george marshall, when marshall got attacked by mccarthy. but margaret shea smith, the
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only woman who was a united states senator at the time would do it. here we have a 25-year-old woman who has worked for ted cruz, who has worked for steve scalise. who has worked for some of the most conservative pro-trump republicans on capitol hill having the courage to step forward. tell the truth and do what all of the cowardly men around her would not do. >> right. and look at the contrast between her, this brave woman, who our children, grandchildren, they will know her name. and they have to honor her for what she did yesterday. she was the one person who stood up to these people and said, this is what really happened. and contrast what was done yesterday with another day, joe, and that is january 28th, 2021. eight days after donald trump left office, having done all of
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this, when the country needed an eminent republican to stand up and say, whatever you may think of in policies, this is someone who was in bed with domestic terrorists who want to destroy our democracy. instead what happened was, eight days after trump leaves office, kevin mccarthy flies down to palm beach, goes into the throne room at mar-a-lago and figuratively crawls to donald trump. has his picture taken side by side smiling and basically said donald trump is welcome back into the heart of the heart of the republican party. and ever since then, trump's influence has -- rather than shrunk which it should have done, rather than being pursued for what he did on the 6th of january, trumpism has met as it metastasized one are is the hitler and mccarthy remember
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that date, january 28th, 2021. if you had a strong woman standing up then, everything might have been different. >> everything would have been different. so many people look at that moment and blame kevin mccarthy for allowing this national nightmare to continue. the truth is coming out because kevin is too weak, kevin mccarthy too weak to stand up to donald trump. too cowardly to stand up to donald trump, so cowardly, that even after saying this was horrific and that donald trump was responsible. he backed down even after that. i will tell you, it's so interesting, willie, liz cheney, we read on january 6, i think it might have been jim jordan who offered her a hand to help. she said in effect, get away from me. you're responsible for this. >> yeah, i mean, cowardice is
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the word today. when you listen to that description from cassidy hutchinson about mark meadows' actions on january 6 ofth, it's more than cowardly, though, it's unpatriotic. you know what's happening at the capitol and you're not willing to stop it. our country is under attack. you say what am i supposed to do? he thinks mike pence should be hanged. what should i do? he's staring at his phone, closing the door on cassidy hutchinson when she's trying to talk about how bad things have happened. he's a coward. and paul butler, i'll turn to you about who else we may hear from him, pat cipollone comes out pretty well according to cassidy hutchinson on how he acted. the chief of staff mark meadows how bad things might be. this morning, liz cheney is tweeting as we heard, white
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house counsel pat cipollone had significant concerns to trump's january 6 activities. it's time for mr. cipollone to testify on the record. any concerns he had about the institutional interests of his prior office are outweighed by the need for his testimony. who else do you think, paul, testimony should be compelled to step forward cipollone, it's pae for him to testify. he's the one who said if this goes down we're all liable for federal crimes. we need to know what federal crimes he was talking about and who he thought was liable. he has no privilege to testify. he was the white house counsel. that means he represents the people of the united states, the institution of the white house, he does not represent donald trump and he needs to stop protecting him. >> he's trying to exert executive privilege here, my god, based on what we heard yesterday, he has to fill in some of these blanks. >> donny, you watched all day
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yesterday. your broad reaction to what you saw from cassidy hutchinson. there were concerns about height, there were those why are they rushing back, what can she tell us? now we know. >> you saw referencing friday roe v. wade and history in the last three days is being made in striking fashion. and there's so many people keep coming up and going what's wrong with justice how worse can it get? and how bad can it get? and we've lost our way. you see roe v. wade and you see trump and the violence and everything documented. but then you see cassidy hutchinson. and you see a system that's going to be holding these people accountable. and you can start to connect the dots and you see how merrick garland will have no choice but to bring criminal charges against donald trump. you see this is the beginning of the end of donald trump. not trumpism. but donald trump politically and probably criminally also. and you know, you know what, as
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bad as things are, add bass as things can be, what we did is overturned whereas you have a potentially bloody coup in this country we do have a system that holds or appears to be holding. in the best and worst of times we have heros in this country and cassidy hutchinson is clearly one of them. >> alise, it's important that we sort some things out here. i do understand and we talked about it at great length. the real concerns many people have about the decision to overturn roe v. wade, after 49 years. what it may mean to women in states. what it will mean to women in states who were raped, incest victims. women who have to have state having control over their body. but it's very important that we separate that for our viewers. that happened within constitutional boundaries.
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that happened because republicans elected more united states senators to the senate. that happened because americans may not like, most americans may not like the way mitch mcconnell wielded his power. may not like that they made up things as they went along. and they didn't play another. but again, it's very simple, if democrats want to change that, if democrats have to figure out even if it seems more difficult now, how to win those elections, how to influence that and within the boundaries of our constitutional guidelines of madisonian democracies. in his case, people are attacking me oh, you're too tough on trump. we may disagree with trump on policies but it's not about abortion. yeah, it's not about guns, yeah
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he made me angry about the deficit, made me really angry about inhumane treatment of immigrants on the border. but what we're talking about here is outside the constitutional guard rails of madisonian democracy. it is so important that all republicans, that all trump supporters, that all conservatives, all members, elise, of the former tribe understand will debate abortion within those boundaries. but what donald trump did on january 6th, what we heard yesterday that is outside the constitutional framework of madisonian democracy. and worse than that, it's against the law. >> you know, joe, yesterday was powerful testimony. and i think that the conversation should focus on what caddie hutchinson observed first hand.
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and how powerful, how she observed donald trump being told of violence. and he had no qualms about it. he wanted to go forward. you look at the committee, and how they are pursuing this, in contrast to democrats and abortion. and you look at mitch mcconnell and you're talking about just how ruthless he was in pursuing his goal of the current supreme court. and this committee is playing for keeps. and i think that liz cheney's had a powerful influence on that. they are getting their supporters fired up. they're continuing to trickle out, tantalizing details. and we need to hear first hand, we need to hear firsthand from pat cipollone and we need to hear firsthand from mark meadows. and i'm just curious, how tough is it going to be, a protracted of a fight, that we hear
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firsthand testimony of what happened with donald trump on january 6. >> elise, i talked early area about margaret shea smith having the church to do what so far powerful men did not back in 1950. and back at the height of mccarthyism. think about the january 6 hearings. think about the two key players in history is a funny thing. liz cheney, an arch conservative, about as conservative as you can can get. a conservative woman. and cassidy hutchinson who, again, worked for ted cruz, worked for mark meadows. worked for steve scalise. worked for the most conservative people on capitol hill. it is these two conservative women, arch conservatives, that have stepped forward and have told the truth about donald trump. so, it's remarkable the turn
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that history has taken. >> it really is. i'm not surprised, though, joe. i think that you could hear yesterday just how hutchinson was so upset by what she saw. and the inaction. and the ambivalence to the storming of the u.s. capitol. and that clearly left its mark. and she started an important trail of discovery. and i look forward to the committee pursuing more testimony. and we need to hear from people who were there. and who were directly around donald trump that day. and there should be consequences. >> one of the lines that jumped out to me from her is when she's talking about mark meadows, 24, 23 at the time, 18 months out of college, she's looking at mark
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meadows saying he needs to care. i have to snap him out of this. this young staffer at the white house trying to shake everybody and say hey, the country is being attacked. she can't get their attention. paul, analyzing it as the former prosecutor that you are, that merrick garland has no choice but to bring charges. obviously, there's a lot they're gathering at the department of justice as chuck rosenberg said earlier they have more than this committee has that they're probably gathering. do you see thus far in the 2 1/2 weeks of crimes committed that the doj needs to pick up on? >> willie, there's no question. yesterday, we learned two things. we already know that trump sicced the mob on the capitol. and how badly he wanted to join the mob. he wanted to join at the scene of the crime. we also know that he knew that the mob was armed with dangerous
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weapons. and he was more concerned about protecting them making sure they had entry into the perimeter so he'd have this big crowd than protecting his own vice president. now the justice department has two considerations. the first is there's clearly evidence of crime. could they, though, persuade 12 people, 12 jurors to convict? there's never been prosecution of a former president. and including sedition, not just for the proceeding but for the violence of january 6. the other consideration for the justice department is a prosecution in the interest of the american people? and when you consider what we've heard yesterday, that the former president led or wanted to lead a violent mob to attack the capitol, to stop the certification of elections, from this extremely credible, very
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republican witness. i think that the public interest question is clear. yes. there must be accountability. otherwise, the president of the united states will be above the law. and that's not a miracle. >> former president prosecutor paul butler thank you very much for your insight this morning. michael beschloss, before you go, some final thoughts, really, on what you say is one of the most historic events you've seen in history. in terms of a witness coming forward against a president -- a former president. >> right. and we talk about john dean, you and i have, mika, 1973, june, went up before the senate watergate hearings. and was the first person at a high level from the nixon inner circle to say richard nixon was at the center of this cover-up. everything that nicken did in the 1970s is put in the shade by
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what we have seen here. >> wow. >> nixon didn't send armed terrorists up to the capitol. and by everything that we are learning now what donald trump wanted to see on the 6th of january was violence. there's every sign that he wanted to see members of congress shot or killed or taken hostage. including his vice president, who, of course, is the president of the senate. have we ever seen a president do 100th of that in the whole history of the united states? historically, every other president is in one category. donald trump is in a category of his own. >> all right. michael beschloss, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe" house select committee member jamie raskin will join us to weigh in on the significance of yesterday's hearing. they have more hearings they're preparing. plus, the committee wanted to speak with ginni thomas, wife
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of supreme court justice clarence thomas. but her lawyer is throwing cold water on the prospect of a voluntary interview. >> oh, i thought she wanted to testify. i'm confused. >> she has so much to say. >> but i'm confused i thought she wanted to talk. >> i guess not. >> politico joins us with the new reporting on that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. g "morning " we'll be right back. isn't that right phil? sorry, i'm a little busy. what in the world are you doing? i'm in the metaverse, bundling my home and auto insurance. why don't you just do that in the real world? um, because now i can bundle in space. watch this. save up to 25% when you bundle home and auto. call a local agent or 1-888-allstate for a quote today.
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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." 39 past the hour. a live look at the white house, as we heard testimony of some major drama going on in there during january 6. we've been talking about some who wonder just how cassidy hutchinson who is just 24 years old at the time all of this
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happened went about all the access that she had inside the white house. "the washington post" detailed her path from staffer to prominent witness. as we mentioned hutchinson started working at the white house in 2019. after interning for congressman steve scalise and senator senator ted cruz. she worked closely with mark meadows during trump's first impeachment trial. and when meadows was named chief of staff in march 2020 he immediately elevated her to his principal assistant. during yesterday's hearing, vice chair liz cheney has laid out hutchinson's role inside the trump administration. >> in her role, working for the white house chief of staff, miss hutchinson handled a vast number of sensitive issues. she worked in the west wing several steps down the hall from the oval office. miss hutchinson spoke daily with members of congress with members
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of high ranking administration and senior white house staff including mr. meadows, with white house council lawyers and with mr. tony ornato who served as the chief of staff. also worked with on a daily basis with members of secret service posted in the white house. in short, miss hutchinson was in a position to know a great deal about happenings in the white house. >> committee also showed how physically close hutchinson was to all the actions in the west wing. her desk was right outside mark meadows' office. just down the hall from the oval office. benefit rhodes, a former national security official to president obama gave insight to the kind of access someone in hutchinson's role would have had. >> i really want to underscore this for your viewers, the role that cassidy hutchinson had, that person would know everything. okay. >> right. >> the aides to the chief of
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staff in the obama white house today -- here's why, first of all, physically, the west wing is an incredibly small place and there is one hallway that has the chief of staff's office in one end, the oval office in the middle and national security adviser's office at the other end. you hear what's going on. you hear from the valets. you also see the paper flow. everything that's going to the president, everything that's going to the chief of staff is going to cross the desk of cassidy hutchinson. they're going to have relationships with white house valets and what makes things run. when i was close to the president of the united states for eight years, the person in that role would know more than me. >> katty kay, just a couple of thoughts here, just as a woman i was very proud to listen to her testimony yesterday. i know how hard that must have been to work in such close proximity to all of these men,
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including president trump, a massive masoginist. and i feel like, and i wrornd if you agree, this was like a signal to rudy giuliani. a signal to mark meadows, a signal to all of those men around trump, you might want to come forward. you might want to come back and redo your testimony. you might want to consider testifying. because this is going in a bad direction for you. >> yeah, what was remarkable to think there was his 22-year-old, almost straight out of college, and she not only keeps her head while the others are losing theirs. and that sense of chaos she describes in the white house january 6 is remarkable, people running down corridors trying to get the attention of the president.
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trying to get the president to say something. she's trying to get the attention of mark meadows. and he just comes across as absent. as having almost checked out of the whole thing with no ability to stand up to president trump. several people go to mark meadows in the course of what cassidy hutchinson is recounting about january 6 and saying we need to do something. we need to get the president to say something. we need to draw up the statement. he basically says no, i'm not doing anything because the president doesn't want to do anything. and cassidy hutchinson who is young, at 22, stands up to her boss saying no, you have to, you have to try to get the president to say something. i think that is what made her testimony so compelling yesterday. she was clearly nervous as anybody would be. she was a human being. but she had the courage to sit in that congressional hearing,
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just as she did have the cover up on january 6 to stand up to the much older men around her. this is what you have to do. they didn't do it on january 6. let's see if any of them come forward to testify now. >> i think maybe it's because we've known donald trump for a long time. one thing that shocks me that people like mark meadows thinks that donald trump is actually going to be there. if i don't testify against him, he's going to protect me. donald trump is not going to visit you in prison. >> no, he isn't. we're looking backwards as we have to with the president about an attempted coup. we have to keep our eyes to the future. the sad irony, as we uncover an attempted coup. we see states like wisconsin and pennsylvania set up that, that coup. >> people running for attorney general and governor in those states still are calling as of
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yesterday 2020 a stolen election. >> 2024, there's more to come, hopefully not in this violent way but in a surreptitious and equally striking way. >> katty kay and donnie, thank you for being here. another round of primary elections coming with mixed results. steve kornacki is at the big board to break it all down for us next on "morning joe." l downr us next on "morning joe.
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a beautiful day here in new york city. voters and a handful of states went to the polls yesterday. our nbc news national correspondent is at the big board to breakdown the results. good morning. i understand your starting in
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colorado. >> a mixed bag when you take colorado and a few other states when it comes to trump aligns. january 6 and the republican primaries and mx bag, democrats spending massively trying to influence republican primary results so colorado is a great place to start. what you're looking at is the republican senate primary in colorado, the winner is joe o'day who will go on to the general election and face the democratic incumbent. the distinction was pretty stark on a couple of issues, notably the 2020 presidential election. he said the 2020 election was on the level and his opponent actually attended donald trump's speech in dc on january
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6 and was part of the crowd that marks marched to the capital. there is also distinction on the issue of abortion with o'day calling him so pro-choice and hank sponsoring legislation that would ban abortion in all cases. o'day was the candidate that national republicans were hoping would win and democrats meanwhile spent millions of dollars trying to elevate ron hanks and his primary believing that they could get hanks nominated it would make it a much safer seat for michael bennet but o'day wins the primary and advances. colorado is one of the states that has been getting blue over the last decade or so but in a climate like 2022 it will be interesting to see if o'day can give bennett a real run and put the race on the map. when other race to know, we usually don't talk and i been doing this for years and the
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secretary of state races, we have seen how important office of secretary of state is. the republican primary for colorado for secretary of state, you've got the winner here, pam anderson a former county clerk. she got into the race because she did not like the claims of electoral fraud that some republicans were advancing including tina peters who lost last night. she is the county clerk in mesa county. peters is currently under indictment for allegedly tampering with voting machines to try to prove the 2020 election was stolen so this was a fascinating matchup for secretary of state and the candidate who said the 2020 election was legitimate wins the primary. notable results in colorado with a mixed bag for the trump aligns candidates. a trip to illinois and something very different happened here.
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here in the republican primary the trump backed candidate wins overwhelmingly against richard irvin. the moderate republican candidate and said he voted for donald trump and trump came in at the end and endorsed bailey and by the way this is another one of those races were democrats, j.b. pritzker the democratic governor running for reelection, they spent upwards of 30 million dollars trying to prop up bailey in the primary and they did get their way in this one and quickly one other race of note, in illinois on the trump issue, two republican and convince mary miller, she backed trumps claims in the 2020 election and defeats rodney davis who voted to certify the 2020 election. miller defeats davis and that republican race.
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>> last night you have some candidates who were not election deniers who persevered like the secretary of state. what other races do you think where the big flashpoints for democracy. >> miller here and this is probably the result that donald trump is most pleased with as he had the rally saturday before the election and voted to create the bipartisan commission and voted to certify the 2020 election and miller said the votes by davis amounted to stabbing trump supporters in the back and one other interesting results, this is mississippi the third district of mississippi and this was a bit of a surprise. michael guessed the incumbent republican congressman who was forced into a runoff against
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the challenger, michael cassidy . cassidy got more votes in the preliminary and it was why he was forced into a runoff and a lot of people thought he was a loser yesterday but look at the final result he turned the tables in a big way in the runoff and a lot of money came in on the behalf of guests. but just after being endangered by the vote ends up surviving the runoff. this was the biggest surprise. >> before we let you go, son of rudy giuliani running for governor in the state of new york. >> he was running for governor and no longer is and was defeated in the republican gubernatorial in new york by the congressman. obviously giuliani had leaned into a lot of the claims of his father about trump in the 2020
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election and his opponent had leaned and voted not to accept to accept the. and kathy hochul the governor who extended to the office, easily defending off two challengers. >> we will be watching. and coming up next we are getting back to the stemming testimony from yesterday's hearing and we will ask what is next for the select committee and plus we will be joined by a coordinator for the national security council. john kirby in madrid for the nato summit.
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>> i saw him right before walked out that morning. he said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capital. and we will get charge with every crime imaginable if we make it happen. >> do you remember which crimes he was concerned with quick >> we had conversations of potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> the former white house aide testifying before the house select committee investigating january 6 that the trump white house counsel, pat cipollone, warned of criminal charges if donald trump went to the capitol.
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and hugh met with the committee for an informal interview in april and is now under pressure to testify under oath and on camera. this morning the committee cochair tweeted in part, any concerns we had about the institutional interest of his prior office are outweighed by the need for his testimony. the chief white house correspondent, peter alexander has the highlights from yesterday's incredible hearing . >> in person and under oath, cassidy hutchinson testified tuesday that before his speech on january 6, mr. trump knew about the potential violence in the capital but was unfazed even after learning some of his supporters were armed and would not get through security. >> the president said something to the effect of, i don't care that they have weapons, they are not here to hurt me . >> another explosive allegation.
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mr. trump furious he was not being driven to the capital tried to grab the steering wheel and lunged toward the lead agent, bobby engel and a source close to the secret service said of angle and suv driver are prepared to testify under oath disputing that mr. trump ever tried to grab the wheel. hutchinson's lawyer said she testified under oath accounting what she was told and those with the knowledge of the episode should do the same. hutchinson said she first heard of plans to make an unannounced trip to the capital from rudy giuliani days before january 6, plans she said that alarmed white house counsel, pat cipollone. >> he said something to the effect that please make sure we don't go up to the capital . keep in touch with me. we are going to get charge with every crime imaginable . >> she also recounted a conversation between pat cipollone and meadows as the
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writers advanced on the capital. pat cipollone said the president needed to take action . >> something to the effect of you heard him, pat . he doesn't think they are doing anything wrong. >> she also said she witnessed evidence of the president's temple temper including damage to the dining room after bill barr's declaration that there was no widespread fraud. >> there was catchup dripping down the wall and a shattered porcelain plate. >> a series of terror attacks that are directed to hutchinson saying he barely knew hutchinson and to mind her account of the altercation with the secret service and about the january 6 rally same i did not want to request that we make room for people with guns to watch my speech, who would ever want that? >> joining us now is denver riggle men who previously
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advised the select committee and just hearing the words, we are going to get charged with every crime imaginable being repeated by cassidy hutchinson, what are your initial reactions ? >> first of all, how brave to talk yesterday and they were talking about witness tampering but the fact is the type of pressure on gop individuals working in the ecosystem is pretty severe and weather implicit or explicit, the threats are fico out there and talk it will shorten your career in the gop circle whether your staff for an elected official and you have to sort of go along and get along in the fact that she would go out there and stay true about what happened behind closed doors and really bolster the testimony from the attorneys which is very important for the american
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people. the committee is doing an incredible job setting up with the other hearings coming up based on the data they have and the operational plan that supported the comments and direction that you saw from the trump white house. not only stemming that we need to applaud the bravery of cassidy hutchinson . >> she testified yesterday that the white house knew there were weapons and during the hearing we heard radio transmissions from police officers who spotted the weapons in the crowd on january 6 and hutchinson said mark meadows and former president trump were aware of the situation. >> the select committee has learned about reports from outside the magnetometers and obtained police radio transmissions identifying individuals with firearms including ar15 says mir the lift on the morning of january 6. let's listen in.
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>> a white male about six foot ta with brown cowboy boots and has got blue jeans and a blue jean jacket and underneath the blue jean jacket and ar15. several individuals and two of the individuals in the group at the base of the tree of the porter parties with green fatigues about five foot eight or 5'9", brown cowboy boots and a long style pistol. >> the subject resting on his right hip and his in the tree. >> make sure they know they have an elevated thread in the tree.
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look for the american flag face mask, boots. >> i have three men walking down with the mayor 15. >> she said in prior testimony, you describe press the meeting in the white house around 10:00 am on the morning of january 6 involving chief of staff meadows and tony arenado. were you in the meeting? >> i was . >> let's listen to your testimony and then we will have some questions. >> the last time we talked, you mentioned some of the weapons people had at the rally included oversized flagpoles, was there anything else you were called about the people who had gathered? >> i recall tony having a conversation with mark probably around 10:00 am or 10:15 am
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where i remember tony mentioning knives, guns in the form of pistols and rifles. body armor, flagpoles and tony relate to me something to the effect of, their fastening spears on the end of the flagpoles . >> and mr. arenado told the president about the rally on january 6? >> that's what he relate to me . >> here is how you characterize mr. meadows general response when people raise concerns about what can happen. >> so at the time there were lots of recourse of how things might go bad.
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mr. meadows did not show those concerns or did not have those concerns? >> did not act on those concerns . >> despite knowing the supporters were armed the former president trump became angry when he found out screaming devices called magnetometers would stop them from entering the rally area where he was speaking and according to hutchinson the former president was not concerned about being a target of violence. he said those are my people and they are not here to hurt me or the armed supporters are planning on marching to the capital but was concerned that the people were turned away and would make the rally crowd appear smaller. >> he was furious because he wanted the arena that we had on the lift to be maxed out at capacity for all attendees. >> i overheard the president say something to the effect of, i don't f and care that they
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have weapons. they are not here to hurt me. take that fm thing away. let my people in. >> the president apparently wanted all attendees inside the official rally and said, they're not here to hurt me. >> to be clear, he was told again in that conversation or was he told again in that conversation that people could come because they had weapons? >> correct. >> and his response was, they could march to the capital . >> something to the effect of of take the ft mags away, they are not here to hurt me. they can march. take the estimate mags away. >> let's just underline what we heard what's he's saying take
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the mags away let them bring the ar15 says that they're going to need it to march to the capital to take on an overwhelmed capitol police force, what did you make of what you heard? >> i could imagine what the police officers or law enforcement were saying or what they must've felt when they heard that. and something i've been talking about a long time is i did counterterrorism analysis and so many things like that for 20 years and this was a domestic terrorist event. and the individuals that came in contact with them and i cannot imagine anybody right now after hearing the testimony yesterday whether your far right or right left or middle right or middle left were center, that this was not a domestic terrorism event anyone
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defending it. and i said this yesterday, individuals were sporting the violent whims of someone who was credulous. that is something i have been warning about for a couple years that we have fantasy directing policy at the white house with issues like this where people are storming the capital based on massive lies and a president supporting those people who are storming the capital and this is actually huge and it's a bridge to the follow-on that will cover the data and operational planning. >> cassidy hutchinson described how trump resisted giving a speech the day after the january 6 attack but was commenced by a group of white house aides who urged him it was necessary to condemn the violence and to quell the growing talk of the 25th amendment being invoked to
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remove trump from office. hutchinson said trump disagreed about prosecuting the rioters and wanted to add lines in about potentially pardoning them. >> the president ultimately delivered the remarks unlike many of his other speeches, he did not ad lib. and he recited them without significant alteration except one even then on january 7, 2021 , the day after the attack on the u.s. capital, the president still could not bring himself to say quote, this election is now over. one other point about the speech , ms. hutchinson, did you hear that he wanted to add language about pardoning those who took part in the riot? >> i did hear that and i understand that he was
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encouraging the language as well. >> thank you. here's what you told us previously about that. >> who was instructing him not to include that? >> the white house counsel coming into her office saying it was not a good idea to include it. >> >> congressman, remarkable, you have mark meadows lined up with donald trump through this entire extraordinary time. a couple images that are so jarring and meadows being told that dangerous weapons are being carried toward the capital and meadows not looking up from his phone and the next day even after through all of that, meadows agreeing with the president, standing alone and agreeing with the president
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about pardons and the attorneys. talk about how shocking it is that mark meadows continued to be like a pontius pilate figure even when the american republic or constitutional republic is on the line saying i washed my hands of it and if that's what the president wants then that's what i want. >> he was the pivot man and everything went through him. the fact that he was texting because the tactical team got to see a lot of that so there were a lot of text messages. i think as the operational planning and part of the hearings come about, you will probably see how valuable he was to the president in ensuring that the messaging got out and who he was contacting
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and the things he did from november 3 through january 20 and the fact that mark meadows is a part of this has not been a surprise to me or to many but i think i would say the legal team for mark meadows is having a bad morning and i want to go back to this and it is something that i have been racking my brain about, he does not want to talk to the committee now but beforehand he gave up a massive amount of text messages and other correspondence that was helpful so i don't see at this time, i think it's time for mark meadows to come forward. it's just that simple. >> i could not agree any more thank you so much for being with us and we greatly appreciate it. let's bring in now a member of the select committee investigating january 6 attack.
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jamie raskin of maryland, thank you for being with us. we have all been talking for a couple hours on how extraordinary yesterday was. the presidential historian saying it was one of the most remarkable days he could remember and i want to ask you, what was your take away? >> it was dumbfounding although not surprising to learn directly that donald trump knew the crowd was armed and there was lots of people with weapons and cassidy hutchinson testified guns, rifles and flags sharpened in the spears and other kinds of implements. donald trump's attitude was let's waive them in. and get those metal detectors out of the way because they are slowing down the growth of my crowd which is going to be incited to march on the u.s. capital. i think cassidy hutchinson destroyed any
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pretense that donald trump and mark meadows and all the presidents men did not understand precisely what was happening on that day. >> good morning and as he met was an unscheduled hearing and we learned about it the day before and he rushed back to hear the testimony. what was the urgency of the hearing? >> the evidence is of such fundamental importance that we wanted to get it out and also my colleague the vice chair of the committee pointed out that they were very troubled about different efforts to influence witnesses, witness tampering is a crime in the united states and we want to make sure that we send a clear message right now that the committee will not tolerate any form of witness
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tampering or obstruction of justice . >> were you concerned you might lose her eyes and witness because of the pressure she was feeling from the outside? >> i really don't want to say anything more about that. i will say that cassidy hutchinson was an exemplary witness who demonstrated remarkable courage and character in coming forward to explain exactly how serious the threat of political violence was and how much it was understood within the white house before it took place. >> at the end of the hearing the committee chair made an open call to those who may want to refresh their memories or find courage decide to come in, join in or add to the testimony. was he speaking directly to some people who have already testified and perhaps were not as truthful as they could've
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been? >> chairman thompson was speaking to everyone and the attitude of the committee is we want all relevant evidence from all material witnesses and we want nothing but the truth and we want all of the truth to be able to come out. the good news is the vast majority of the people with information have come forward and cooperated and there is a relative handful of people who have been hiding and decking and dodging the truth but we want everybody to come forward and tell us exactly what they know. >> that includes mark meadows, who do you really want to hear from and who needs to come in and speak up? >> i would be very interested to hear from mark meadows and of course he began to cooperate at the beginning of the
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investigation and turned over thousands of messages that have been of use and then suddenly pulled the plug apparently went donald trump was angry about that. we need to hear from pat cipollone, the white house counsel because he is such a pivotal figure in terms of blocking even more egregious and dangerous actions by the then president. we really need him to come forward to fill in a lot of details. >> yesterday the testimony was certainly stirring and mind blowing and the witness had previously given 20 hours or so of testimony already to the committee. was there any new information that she shared an open testimony that she had not
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previously covered with the committee? and also what she offered him her immunity for perjury for cooperating? >> yesterday the witness had done several interviews with the committee and her testimony represented the cumulative information that the committee had received that we were simply of the mind that the public needed to know about all of this and i'm not aware of her asking for immunity or her being offered any. she has done nothing wrong and i have not heard a single whisper that she may have committed any crimes. she was clearly working very hard to stop the violence and to do what she could to maintain the rule of law under very difficult conditions. i think that there are some truly heroic dimensions to what
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she did yesterday. >> the focus this morning is on the details of everything you have been laying out and we talked about the president knowing there were weapons and all the things that happened that day to clear a path for the attempted q but one of the stories that came out of the testimony that made headlines and grab people's attention was an incident inside the presidential limousine that she testified to and it's stunning to detail about a president who tried to grab the wheel and ended up with a physical altercation with his lead secret service agent. secret service agent told them that they are available to testify under oath responding to the new allegations that a source close to the secret service said both men dispute that trump grabbed the steering wheel assaulted an agent and do not deny that trump was irate and demanded they drive to the
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capitol . is it your understanding and have you corroborated from other witnesses that president trump grabbed the steering wheel in the limousine and got into an altercation with his lead agent? >> she is in and credible witness and everyone was able to judge her demeanor and she has no motivation or interest in lying in any way so on the other hand we have some anonymously sourced rumors of feelings of particular agents. anyone who wants to testify can come forward and testify about what happened. all we are interested in is the truth and i sort of expected yesterday that as the young woman telling the truth that she would come under fire from anonymous sources that is washington for you.
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i will tell you that nobody is challenging the central material facts of her testimony that donald trump and mark meadows were perfectly aware that there are people in the crowd and donald trump wanted to waive them in in order to swell the force of the crowd which he then aimed like a missile at the u.s. capitol and in fact he wanted to lead the march to the capitol and wanted to be there and that's when he became so irate and nobody is challenging that. again, i fully expected that she would come under attack but from my estimation, she spoke with entire credibility and authenticity, yesterday . >> we have been focused on what you just mentioned, the plot and as you know it will be used in certain quarters as evidence
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so now you cannot believe anything she says if the story turns out not to be true so is it your understanding, you've heard from witnesses and talk to the two people, did the incident happen in the car? i guess we lost congressman jamie raskin. guys, obviously this is a story that grabbed a lot of people's attention when she testified to it yesterday and they have heard testimony previously from mr. engel who was a secret service ent and havethe testimony from mr. areno as she cited as having told her the story from inside the presidential suv. >> exactly. from my understanding and i'm not sure if i have all the names correct but mr. engel the secret service agent who is there when it was being
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recounted what went on inside the suv. and he certainly did not say anything and was there. i think we know what is happening here and it's probably happening with pat cipollone too. people are concerned, secret service members are concerned about testifying about how the president acted in a private moment and they will somehow be undermining the alliance that the president will have around secret service members just like pat cipollone but as others have said, we understand that and we understand wanting to protect the institutions whether it secret service or it is a lawyers confidence with the president and advised that he or she gives or takes but this is obviously something that is extraordinarily different and we've got the
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congressman back. congressman, the question was whether you have heard the testimony from mr. engel and other testimony surrounding the event ended are you confident that by the end that there will be cooperating testimony that corroborates the story? >> i have heard nothing that contradicts it and is consistent with multiple counts we have of the president being incensed and outraged and armed people were being kept out of the crowd and also that he was unable to participate in the march. miscellany style on the way to the capitol so he could go and presumably sees the presidency . we can't forget what the entire plan was and it was to get mike pence so either trump would just win outright in the
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electoral college or more likely it would be kicked into the house of representatives for contingent and we would've voted by states and they felt as if they have the states lined up and he was ready come essentially to be restored to power at that point and all of it would've been filmed as he would've read into glory with the violent masses who had stormed the winter palace as some of his extremist followers were describing the event. >> and you would welcome more testimony from the two witnesses who say they would come forward? >> absolutely. anybody is welcome to come forward and testify under oath about what they know and our purpose is to get to the facts and the truth and what we are combating is the big lie and a series of lies. >> the steering wheel is the
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salacious detail and knowing is disputing that there was an irate president in the back of that suv demanding to go to the united states capitol . the member of the select committee investigating the attack, congressman jamie raskin of maryland. thank you very much. >> let me just say really quickly that is so important that we remember that you have these stories, colorful stories, great parts for people to read in books and great scenes in movies of a president grabbing the steering wheel and a president throwing ripping the tablecloth off. when he's enraged and i understand that and it is extraordinary moments but let's not forget the bottom line, the president of the united states new that the mob that was
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marching towards the capitol was armed and he wanted them to get into his event and be able to get into the event without having to go through security where they would've taken the weapons away and then the president would say they could march, they could come in and march straight to the capitol. understanding that an armed mob was moving toward the united states capitol where there was a vote to certify the electoral count and they were going to march there and were going to disrupt it and mike pence was supposed to do his job and if mike pence didn't then the president wanted to go up, miscellany style with an armed mob breaking into the house chamber and follow the man and declared himself president of the united states. it doesn't really take an active imagination to peace those items together.
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it really is shocking . >> we will come back to the dramatic testimony in a moment and also ahead, updates on three other big stories playing out this morning and how legal battle is redefining the issue of abortions in america. plus another deadly reminder of the crisis at the border. dozens of migrants found dead in the back of an overheated big rig. and the brutal realities of vladimir putin's war machine where shocking -- shopping malls are targeted. the latest from ukraine is straight ahead. you're watching morning joe and we will be right back. back.
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at least three people are in custody after dozens of migrants were found dead in the back of a semi truck in texas. morgan chesky has more. >> in san antonio, a horrific tragedy is taking a growing human toll.
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>> these are human beings. >> officials say at least 39 men and 12 women are dead after they were found packed in the back of this abandoned semi truck. and sweltering triple digit texas heat. authorities adding that some of the victims may be children. >> potentially, some of them are under at the age of 18. >> first responders described their shock of seeing so many people packed inside . >> 50 or 60 people inhumanely stuffed in the back of a truck with no water or air conditioning, no need for ventilation. >> 22 of the victims are mexican nationals, seven are from guatemala and two others from honduras. the incident is called the worst human smuggling event ever in the united states. so far three people believed to be part of it have been taken into custody. the mexican government officials saying one
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event is a u.s. citizen who is currently in a san antonio hospital. on tuesday, authorities used k-9 units to search for more potential victims and the tragedy comes up amid record influx of migrants across the u.s. border. >> the policymakers who have responsibility and jurisdiction over the immigration system at the federal level . >> president biden called it horrifying and heartbreaking. adding exploiting vulnerable individuals is shameful as is political grandstanding around tragedy. overnight the texas governor, greg abbott, responded. >> he is doing everything possible to stop human smuggling and that's a lie. >> in san antonio the community trying to support the victim's families and survivors. >> people give up everything in their life to come to america for a better life, --
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>> coming up, one of the president's top advisers, john kirby, is our guest. the admiral joins us live from the nato summit in spain. .
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the supreme court ruling on abortion is impacting every state in the nation with very mixed results. >> women looking to get an abortion are navigating the shifting landscape changes day- to-day and sometimes hour by hour. clinics remain open in texas after judge temporarily blocked the ban, a law that could result in life in prison or $100,000 fine for doctors who perform an abortion. nine other states are also facing legal challenges over restrictive laws. note abortion bans are being in
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six states. in south carolina the governor wants more. >> nobody wants an abortion in south carolina. >> and increasingly unpredictable group of laws forcing some women to explore an option outside of clinics. the abortion bill provides information on how to obtain the drugs have seen websites surge. while the fda has approved the regimen up to 10 weeks into the pregnancy, the number providers able to prescribed the medication is limited. >> do you think the fda needs to do more to make the pills available? >> absolutely. they are safe and effective and need to be available. >> the biden administration is vowing to act. the first lady urging others to keep fighting. >> the decision was so unjust
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and so devastating. but my messages, let's not give up and let's keep working. >> that was stephanie goss reporting. ahead, we go live to the side of the nato summit in spain but first an update on what's driving the discussion there. russia's brutal assault on ukraine and an update from the battlefield is next on morning joe. joe.
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. ten minutes before the top of the hour. a live look at the capitol. in just a moment, we're going to get back to yesterday's bombshell testimony from the january 6th committee hearing. how the new revelations put way more pressure on the ex-president and those around him. plus the very simple questions.
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trump's national security advisor michael flynn chose to plead the fifth. >> what a disgrace. >> it's an incredible moment. first, russia's invasion of ukraine is a central focus as nato leaders gather in spain. we'll go live with admiral john kirby in madrid in just a moment. first, an update on the war from molly hunter. >> reporter: this morning, new video showing the moment of impact when a russian missile struck a busy mall in central ukraine in week. it was packed with people. russia saying they were targeting a nearby weapons depot. on the edge of kharkiv, we meet nina. she's distraught. she tells us her only remaining daughter was forced to russia. nobody needs her except for me, she says. how did you find out?
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did she call you? two weeks earlier, she says, her daughter called saying the russians got me. forcible transfers to russia is a war crime. where the warring party comes and removes a segment of the population and they have no choice where they end up going. we spoke with her. she's safe and she's on her way right now. now. >> from her village near the russian border, natalia was
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taken moscow, onto latvia, onto poland, which is where we catch up with her. natalia says she boarded a bus she thought was going to kharkiv, but says they lied. when i arrived in russia, i thought, that's it, i'm never getting out. but 2,287 miles and four days later she finally makes it to kharkiv and back to her mother. she's home now. she's home. the most important thing, nina says, she's alive, standing right here. >> wow. in a moment we're going to be speaking with admiral john kirby. he'll be speaking from madrid for the white house on the nato conference. g from madrid for the white house on the nato
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it is a few minutes before the top of our fourth hour of "morning joe." welcome back. let's get right to the remarkable revelations and vivid details from former west wing aide cassidy hutchinson, who testified yesterday before the january 6th house select committee. hutchinson served as a senior aide to then white house chief of staff mark meadows and she described the final furious hours of former president trump's desperate campaign to cling to power, detailing outbursts of rage from trump the day he urged supporters to march to the capitol. hutchinson portrayed the former
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president as angry and supportive of the capitol attack, fuming and urging aides to take down magnetometers, better known as metal detectors, near the white house before he addressed a stop the steal rally. >> he was furious because he wanted the arena that we had on the ellipse to be maxed out at capacity for all attendees. >> i overheard the president say something to the effect of, i don't care that they have weapons, they're not here to hurt me, take the effing mags away. let the people in. take the effing mags away. >> the president wanted all attendees inside the official rally space and said, quote, they're not here to hurt me. >> just to be clear, so he was told again in that conversation or was he told again in that
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conversation that people couldn't come through the mags because they had weapons? >> correct. >> and that his response was to say they can march to the capitol from the ellipse. >> something to the effect of, take the effing mags away, they're not here to hurt me, let them in, let my people in. they can march from the ellipse. take the effing mags away. then they can march to the capitol. >> take the magnetometers away so my supporters can have their ar-15s. they're not going to hurt me. they're going to need them at the capitol. the insurrectionists were breaking into the capitol. >> do you recall seeing this tweet in which the president idhe


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