tv Morning Joe MSNBC June 30, 2022 3:00am-6:00am PDT
he believed in a strong military, he believed in a strong nato. he believed in the strength of immigration. he said -- one of the last things, this guy, ronald reagan, for you trumpers, that ronald reagan said as he left office, in his farewell speech was, that immigration is the lifeblood of america and when we stop allowing immigrants to come into our country, we will be the ones who will be old and weary and lose our competitive edge. reagan, guys, ronald reagan the 40th president, if you -- if you're a trumper, you really should study his history and some of his policies. you may actually find out that you are supporting the wrong guy. >> and if you -- we'll play a lot more of what miss cheney had to say, but she was taking note
of the bravery of 25-year-old cassidy hutchinson, who spoke truth to power, who spoke the truth, who spoke, despite the fact that many much older, much more experienced men, were too weak and too shrivelled to be able to speak out about what happened behind closed doors in the trump white house leading up to -- >> did she say that? is willie here? >> let me tell you something -- >> willie -- i don't know that -- >> she mentioned there's more than one woman who spoke out and was able to do that. >> right. >> compared to these pathetic men. >> it's okay. i don't think she used the word shrivelled. >> they're in the corner, shrivelled in the corner. >> it was cold. >> kind of chilly. i don't know. i get what mika is saying here. >> you better. >> it was quite an image, willie, is it not? liz cheney getting rapturous applause at the reagan library, the epicenter of what once was a
movement called conservatism, and talking about just how corrupt the republican party has gotten, but how one young woman actually -- >> and maybe more. >> one young woman -- and several others inside that administration -- have actually had the courage to step forward and defend our republic. >> one caveat to what you're saying about ronald reagan. it wasn't that popular. he only won 49 state. there was the one holdout. take that into account when you talk about the sailence of his message as president of the united states. liz cheney's speech last night, there are two parts of it, the speech itself which we've come to expect from her, she holds nothing back, but that's the other part of it right there, a standing ovation. >> they love her at the reagan library. >> and gosh, joe, it wasn't that long ago, was it, four or five years ago, where ronald reagan was the gold standard for republicans. ronald reagan was the gold
standard for conservatives, and now it's donald trump for most of them. boy, what a contrast in values. what a contrast in morality. you don't have to agree with everything ronald reagan did, but to see that contrast and how quickly it happened. >> how quickly it happened, how quickly it changed. you know, by the way, willie, little known fact, i once spoke at the reagan library while promoting a book, the hosts were kind, i finished my speech and the first person that got up and raisheir hand asked a question, i go yes, sir, he said, who are you? it was a wonderful night. >> oh. no. listen, i love -- >> that didn't happen. but it's too good to check. it's too good to check. but there is something to say, mika, about that reagan library and liz going there and having that sort of -- >> with the words that time for choosing behind her, and it really is, for republicans, it's
way past time. >> and for america. yeah. >> not that you needed it to come to this point. >> right. >> republicans. you're smarter than that, but the reason that trump makes you stupid and it is a time for choosing. step up, speak out, go testify, get it behind you. okay. because it's going to get you. >> one of the superiors that was, quote, hiding behind executive privilege is trump white house counsel pat cipollone. he's now been subpoenaed by the committee to testify on record and we're going to have the latest on that. one thing about this, willie, we'll talk about it much later, not much later, maybe in about five or ten minutes, but this guy is a lawyer inside the white house, and i must say if i were a lawyer, i would let people know i would testify, but you need to subpoena me first. i'm not just running to a committee to testify against a guy that i had attorney-client
privilege with. i know the supreme court voted 8-1, struck down these claims of executive privilege. i get that. but again, when you have a lawyer that has a relationship with a client, regardless of the situation, i would say, listen, send me a subpoena first and then my lawyers will look at it, and i'm sure looking at the rulings we'll be able to testify. that's what the committee has done now. so i would hope, i would expect, we'd be hearing from him soon. >> that's exactly the point and that's what we're hearing behind the scenes. we've seen it in some of the reporting this morning, too, pat cipollone, who has invotinged executive privilege, said i can't talk about the conversations with the president of the united states, unless somebody compels me to do it. which had to happen after the testimony after the testimony of cassidy hutchinson where pat cipollone was so central to what was happening on january 6th according to her testimony and comes off very well as one of the few people actually sounding
the alarm about what was happening and the legal implications of it. with this subpoena, at the very least, he can go in and talk, whether it's transcribed deposition, he can take the fifth, he can invoke executive privilege, whatever he wants on qu in some form, that we'll hear details from pat cipollone, which will be so important to corroborating what cassidy hutchinson put forth a couple days ago. >> yeah. >> and again, time and time again, we heard cassidy talking about how it was pat pushing mark meadows, mark you have to do something, mark, we have to go in and talk to the president. there will be blood on your hands. people will die. you've got to get up and do something. so, yeah, his testimony will be great. there's also been a dust up, mika, about the secret service apparently there's -- there's conflict with the secret service. i will say, also, about the
secret service and this is a little more difficult, but i'll just say, i'm an institutionalist. one of the last things i would want to happen would be for secret service members to start talking about what presidents do behind closed doors and what presidents do specifically inside of the beast, inside of the car, inside of air force one unless it was absolutely necessary. we're going to get into this in a while. they're obviously, cassidy hutchinson said what she said and it's very funny, on one news network last night, one cable network last night, i heard somebody go, and now there's some question on whether he really grabbed the steering wheel, which, of course, throws into question all of her testimony. i mean, that's so stupid. that's like, like saying, al capone, the report is al capone like shot up a bar, killed 30 people and then got a pbr and drank it. when somebody goes no, he didn't
do that, he just had a shot of whiskey, people going, well the rest of the -- we can't believe any of the rest of the testimony. no. it's ridiculous. here's the only thing that matters. what matters is, donald trump wanted to go up to the capitol. >> correct. >> he wanted to go up where the insurrection was taking place. he wanted to go up where they were talking about going to the house of representatives with people that he knew were armed with ar-15s, with knives, with spears, they were going to overthrow the election results. trump wanted to go there. the secret service said that. there's some details that really i don't think they want -- they don't want to, in their mind, rat out a president, they may have to at the end of the day, but i'm sure that's exactly what's happening. there are other people that have already testified to the committee that have repeated the story that cassidy hutchinson said about choking and grabbing the steering wheel. again, great theater, it shows donald trump is crazy.
we knew that anyway. mika, the legal, the important legal fact is, that donald trump wanted to go up to the capitol. >> yes, he did. >> where the insurrection was taking place. that's where pat cipollone said if he goes up there, we're going to be charged with every crime imaginable. he wanted to go there. he had the intent. >> we're going to have the latest reporting from jackie al mainly in just a moment because there's a lot more to report. president biden is meeting with allies right now on the heels of nato, declaring russia a direct threat, and issuing a warning about china. the president will wrap up the summit with a news conference scheduled for 8:00 a.m. eastern time, so we'll cover that live right here during "morning joe," which is four hours long -- >> is it really? by the way, what biden is doing there, willie, is so transformative, you have to compare what's happening to the united states over the past six months with a lot of the change that happened after world war ii
with truman from '47 to '49. we have moved the center of our defensive forces from germany eastward into poland a country that has been invaded for centuries by russia, by germany. now the united states is there. i've got a feeling the invasions are going to stop and then you look at finland, you look at switzerland, coming in to nato, you look at all the baltic state, the baltic sea, as the admiral said, turned into a nato lake. look at finland, if you look at finland, and its eastern border, what is that, like 800 miles of nato border along russia's border. it's extraordinary what has happened. >> very excited in poland about this. >> and it really does block vladimir putin in from invading any other country. he loves to invade countries. we know that. he's been doing it since 2008. he loves to make people suffer. he loves to kill people and commit war crimes.
nato makes sure that doesn't happen. of course, ronald reagan understood that. donald trump didn't. the world's changed now, though, because donald trump is in mar-a-lago. >> it has been an extraordinary -- i mean the expansion of nato with the addition of those two countries, the forward deployment moving the troops that way and convincing all of these country os to spend 2% of their gdp on defense, it's transformative. good news, we have the president of the council on foreign relation, richard haas, up with us all morning. >> how exciting. >> richard your snap assessment of what we've seen not just the last couple days at the nato summit at madrid, but broadly since this war began? >> for 30 years, willie, nato has been trying to figure out what it did. it knew for four decade, it had to keep the americans in, germans down and soviets out. for 30 years it's been casting about. what vladimir putin has done is given nato a new lease on life, a real rationale. now it's to keep the russians out, to keep the americans in, but rather than keeping the
germans down, what we want to do is help the germans get up to play a larger role. this is, as joe correctly said, moving east. this is a much more militarily capable, politically united alliance. the question mark, whether it delivers on all the mention we're going to hear about and whether it has the staying power for a long war. we know vladimir putin probably does. the test for nato is not a summit. it's the days, months, and literally years after the summit. 90% of life is really implementation. that will be the real test for nato. >> we will go live to madrid in a moment, but we want to begin with the january 6th committee, issuing the subpoena for the testimony of trump white house counsel pat cipollone. investigators are compelling him to appear for a deposition next wednesday, july 6th, that comes after the committee's repeated request for him to testify and one day after he was featured prominently in the bombshell testimony from former white house aide cassidy hutchinson. cipollone sat for an informal interview, not under oath in
april, but in a letter to the former white house counsel, the committee writes you have declined to cooperate with us further, including by providing on-the-record testimony, we are left with no choice but to issue you this subpoena. the committee states it has obtained evidence in which cipollone is uniquely positioned to testify. here are the key moments from the committee that they want cipollone to corroborate. >> are you aware of instances where pat cipollone threatened to resign? >> i kind of, like i said, my interests at that time was on trying to get as many pardons done and know that, you know, he was always, him and the team were saying we're going to resign and not be here if this happens and that happens. i kind of took it to just be whining, to be honest with you. >> mr. donahue, during this meeting, did the president tell you he would remove you and mr. rosen because you weren't declaring there was election fraud?
>> toward the end of the meeting the president, again, was getting very agitated, and he said, people tell me i should just get rid of both of you, i should just remove you, and make a change in the leadership. put jeff clark in. maybe something will get done. i responded, as i think i had in the december 27th call, mr. president you should have the leadership you want, but understand, the united states justice department functions on facts, evidence, and law, and those are not going to change. so you can have whatever leadership you want, but the department's position is not going to change. >> the president's white house counsel, pat cipollone, was also present. do you remember what his position was? >> pat was very supportive. pat cipollone, throughout these conversations, was extremely supportive of the justice department. he was consistent. i think he had an impossible job at that point, but he did it well, and he always sided with the justice department in these
discussions. >> i saw mr. cipollone right before i walked out that morning, and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> and do you remember which crimes mr. cipollone was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> i remember pat saying to him, something to the effect of, if the rioters got to the capitol, we need to go down and see the president now. mark looked up and said, he doesn't want to do anything, pat. pat said something to the effect of, and very clearly, said this to mark, something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be
done or people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your effing hands. this is getting out of control. i'm going down there. >> nbc news has reached out to cipollone for comment. a lawyer familiar with the deliberations confirmed to nbc news the subpoena was required for any consideration of transcribed testimony before the committee and that cipollone would now look at matters of privilege as appropriate. joe, we should remind people, pat cipollone, we heard testimony from other people doing the right thing in real time, he did defend president trump at his first impeachment trial, we have to stipulate which, it was the first one for president trump. he's been loyal to donald trump, but in these key moments of history, according to cassidy hutchinson and others, he was the one pushing the white house to do the right thing. >> well, so many of these people that we've seen testify supported donald trump, defended donald trump in impeachment trials that, you know, a lot of us were shocked that anyone would do that, but they did that
as lawyers. they were loyal to donald trump. they stayed loyal to donald trump over four years. january 6th, though, was a breaking point, and as we heard from mr. donoghue, pat had an impossible job at this point, and he did it well. i must also say, again, as an attorney -- and let's bring in former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg, i'll ask him, and "the washington post" congressional investigations reporter jackie allah mainly. i have to say, chuck, with pat cipollone, if i were the president's counsel and people wanted me to testify, i would want to receive a letter just like the one that pat cipollone received saying, we've tried everything to get you to testify, you will not testify, you leave us no choice but to subpoena you to testify, and at that point, i mean, it's much easier to say okay, now i can
talk to the committee. the supreme court has handed down an 8-1 decision. this, obviously, is something that court is going to require me to speak to. i've done my job as an attorney. now it's my time as an american to tell the truth about this story. that's my take. what's yours? >> joe, i think that's fair. just a few things i would add to that, first, don't blame him for wanting a subpoena. as you say, it's a legal order, and he needs to follow it. folks need to know something about privileges. we've seen a lot of privileges asserted in bad faith over the last four or five years. privilege is a real thing. by rule, by policy, by law, it protects certain conversations. if i hire you as my lawyer, i have an attorney-client privilege. there's a fifth amendment privilege. there's a privilege between spouses. so it's a real thing. pat cipollone has certain privileges that he is obligated by law to assert. one minor correction.
a lot of people say that pat cipollone as white house is trump's lawyer. he was not. he is the lawyer to the office of the president. kathie remher was white house counsel under president obama. she's a smart, dignified principled woman. she was not counsel to president obama. she was not his lawyer. she was the lawyer to the office of the president. cipollone now with a subpoena and with certain legitimate privileged areas of communication, can go testify. he has to be careful. as any lawyer, you know this, joe, he has to honor those privileges that are legitimate and genuine. but he has important stuff to tell the committee and the nation, and i hope we hear from him. i just hope both sides -- and i expect both sides are going to be careful about how they adduce his testimony. >> now his -- all of these moments that he we heard cassidy hutchinson testify to, where pat cipollone goes to mark meadows and says, mark, we have to do
something or where he calls cassidy hutchinson and says, keep the president away from the capitol or else we'll be charged with every crime imaginable, there are moments there where he's not talking to the president and in that case he is offering some legal guidance to a president's aide. that would not be privileged, would it? >> yeah. i think that's right, joe. the things you just described would not be privileged. look, there's lots and lots of things he can talk about that are not privileged. he understands that. the committee understand that. prosecutors understand that. but he does have an obligation to the office of the presidency, that was his client, and he ought to keep those -- certain pieces of conversations private. >> by the way, chuck, let's clarify for people that are saying what hell -- what are you guys talking about? there was a coup. so if a president goes to pat cipollone and says, hey f i go
up to the capitol, could i be charged with crimes, you're my lawyer or you're the white house's lawyer, i mean, that discussion about what a crime is, what a crime is not, what legal jeopardy he might face when he's seeking the advice of an attorney, a white house attorney, that would likely be privileged under any scenario, right? >> when you give legal advice and you're not trying to use it to commit a crime, it's typically privileged. that's right. people get frustrated. i think you're right. they don't understand how privilege works. as a former prosecutor, i saw instances where people tried to use privilege to conceal or cover up crimes. we can sort of pierce that veil. generally speaking, there's a lot that pat cipollone can say that's not privileged and i think with a subpoena he now has an obligation to do it. as i said earlier, there's a ton we can learn.
i just hope both sides are careful. i respect the fact that any white house counsel has an obligation to the office of the presidency to maintain the confidence of certain limited discreet conversations. but there's a ton of stuff we can hear from him. >> absolutely. jackie, give us your latest reporting on this and in terms of the subpoena, why now? is it obvious because of the testimony of cassidy hutchinson or are there other factors into timing? >> yeah. mika, why i think cassidy hutchinson's testimony was scheduled on tuesday and why it was so effective was because she really put fingerprints on every person in the white house who had a firsthand seat to the potential criminal activity by the former president and his co-conspirators, and so that we have heard from people involved from the committee that that is in part why the testimony from cassidy, the surprised testimony, announced with 24
hours in advance, was scheduled for when it was scheduled. we've also heard that now this subpoena, as a lawyer close to pat cipollone confirms, it was provided to -- provide some coverage for him. but at the same time, we've also heard that there are fears amongst lawmakers on the committee that he's ultimately not going to cooperate, that these tactics to pressure him in to cooperating with the committee are going to backfire and people close to pat are really skeptical that he's ultimately going to come forward, a lawyer who worked closely with him told us at the end of the day, he is a big executive privilege guy, which should be obvious to all of us, but that also he thought that the court ruling in the case of don mcgahn, another former white house counsel to former president trump was wrong and that that was wrongly decided and that's when the courts decided that mcgahn was compelled to provide testimony to the house under certain
parameters. what we're watching now very closely is whether or not the committee is successful in those negotiations with cipollone and whether or not this public pressure campaign that, you know, started months ago has culminated with cassidy hutchinson is going to effectively work for them. >> yeah. chuck, really quickly, what pat thinks about executive privilege probably takes a back seat to what an 8-1 decision by the supreme court thinks about executiv prileg right? all we're talking about if he does decide not to respond to the subpoena is, the committee is going to go to the supreme court, the supreme court is going to rule 8-1 that he needs to testify, right? >> joe, you're going to hate me for this answer, but it's more complex than that. >> oh, no. >> privilege -- >> this early in the morning? come on. keep it easy. tell me about it. >> yeah. maybe you'll hate me later this
afternoon. but it's more complex than that. privilege is determined on a question by question, answer by answer basis, and so the right way to assert privilege if you want to do it, is to show up and if you're asked a question that you think calls for a privileged response to then assert the privilege and if the other side has a problem you go to court. it's a really fact specific inquiry, and it gets complicated and nuanced, but i am confident that the committee and mr. cipollone and his lawyers can negotiate a path through that if both sides are going to operate in good faith. >> jackie, we've heard many republicans, joe reference what has happened on other channels, picking apart and picking through cassidy hutchinson's testimony on the salacious details but at the center of it these are serious charges and accusations and the eyewitness accounts she brought about of a president clearing the path for supporters to march up to the
capitol, what changed for this committee, if anything, with cassidy hutchinson's testimony? pat cipollone, obviously, is a huge piece to this and we'll see if he shows up for that subpoena. what else does the committee believe happened because of cassidy hutchinson's testimony and how does it move it forward for them? >> yeah. willie, at the end of the day, the full force of the republican party and the tucker carlson, fox news media ecosystem was going to try to poke holes in cassidy hutchinson's credibility and her reputation and any way that they could sort of dispute her testimony. of course, there are legitimate questions to be asked of the committee, sources and methods. i did have a few people who are involved with the investigation yesterday that they felt like maybe there was a misstep or an unforced error with providing certain parts of her testimony that weren't corroborated or having not reached out to the secret service ahead of time to
ask for comment, similar to the way that we do our jobs really, but at the end of the day, the majority of cassidy hutchinson's testimony was not disputed and, in fact, the u.s. secret service statement that came out actually confirmed the vast majority of it, confirmed the conversation with tony, put her in the room. the biggest, most problematic part for the former president actually turned out -- has turned out not to be disputed as well. the former president was encouraging an armed mob to march down to the capitol and siege the capitol an dispute the electoral certification. i do think that this -- the way that this has played out is potentially going to make the committee think a bit more about putting forth evidence going forward that could be potentially, again, disputed or isn't necessarily corroborated. that's why it is so important
for them to get pat cipollone to corroborate key parts of cassidy hutchinson's testimony. liz cheney has told members of the committee it would be a big win for them. this is someone who had not just, you know, had the title of white house counsel but was really portrayed by many different people from eric herschmann to rudy giuliani to cassidy hutchinson as being the most powerful voice of reason in the white house, the no person, the last firewall against the former president. >> again, and i don't want to make this too simple, but it's kind of what i do, if the president were whistling dixie in the back seat of that limousine and angry because he wasn't going to the capitol or if the president of the united states was leafing through an old version that he kept by his bedside in earlier years -- >> entirely possible -- >> the president were trying to grab the steering wheel or threw
plates, it doesn't matter legally, again, as i've said since the testimony came out, that's color commentary. i also think it's true, but that's color commentary. what matters is, for intent, chuck, and please tell me where this view is too simple, what matters is, this guy was angry and wanted to go up to the capitol where the insurrection was and from testimony we're hearing that his lawyer was desperate to keep him away from there, because it showed just how connected he was with this insurrection. >> yeah. i think that's -- joe, i think that's fair. i would add a little bit of color commentary to it, right. so he's told that there's folks outside of the rally who are
armed with guns, with knives, wearing body armor and wearing helmets, and they don't want to go through or can't get through the magnetometers to the speech. he said, i don't care. they're not here to hurt me. let them in. i want a bigger question. they're not here to hurt me. it begs the question, who are they here to hurt? he about to send that angry mob to the capitol. there's a fair inference he knows exactly who they are here to hurt. it ain't him. it's somebody else. it's the folks -- >> chilling. >> yeah. richard haas, what country does donald trump think he's governing over? just as chuck said, he knows that these people -- he's been told these people have guns, they have knives, they have body armor, there are sightings of ar-15s. the president says let them come in without going through the screening. they can come in and listen to
me and then go to the capitol. the president says, and then go to the capitol. >> not here to hurt me. >> they're not here to hurt me. so let them in. and then he says, they can go to the capitol. and then after they go to the capitol, the president is angry -- we have testimony that the secret service confirmed -- he wants to go up to the capitol. there's talk among the president's men that he wants to go up to the capitol and wants to march into the house of representatives with this angry mob up there and, i don't know, i suppose assert power saying here i am, and i'm going to throw out the election results. my god. it's -- if that's not fascism, then i think scholars are going to have to redefine the word.
using violence to -- as a means to gain political power are in this case to keep it, richard. >> look, we like to think, joe, we're a country of laws, not men, but i think what this shows is that the law only takes you so far and then character matters. there's got to be a sense of normalcy. there's got to be a sense of restraint. for the first time in our history, we had someone in the oval office who didn't buy into the norms, didn't buy into the restraint that is so central to american democracy. that's why to me the january 6th hearings are interesting. it shows how vulnerable and thin at the end of the day our democracy was. had it not been for a couple people, people like this young woman who testified this week, cassidy hutchinson, or a few state officials, just how close we came that day, not just on january 6th, but before and after, and that to me is the real lesson we have to take away from this, we have to strengthen
the guardrails. we can't leave it up to character in the fewer, because we realized just how fickle that can be. >> no doubt about that. we depended on constitutional norms, mika, we have defended -- we have depended on the character of people sitting in the white house. we do need some more safeguards. >> speaking of character and credibility, jackie, before you go, talk to me about tony ornato and his credibility and participation all of this. >> yeah. mika, thanks. this is sort of of besides the point as joe pointed out, but it's a fascinating subplot and something you might be talking about down the line, but tony ornato is a fascinating character. if you haven't read my colleague's book on the secret service, i highly recommend picking it up. she touches on some of these issues that i think are really important context for the current smear campaign that we're seeing come out against cassidy hutchinson, which is
that tony has a very unique and american history. he is the rare secret service agent who crossed over to a political position. he became the chief of operations for former president trump after his duty as the lead agent was over. then went back to the secret service. while he was in that political position, his fellow colleagues in the secret service were pretty upset with the way that he handled the role. they thought he was overtly political and that he knew better with certain issues because he had spent his career in the secret service. there are also some other conflicts of interest. two sources tell my colleague carole and i that the committee has found some issues with tony's credibility when it comes to his recall during his closed door deposition. we are not sure if he was explicitly asked about cassidy's anecdote about trump lunging at bobby engel, but we're told that there are some other stories where other witnesses who have provided closed-door depositions
disagreed and provided different accounts than tony and at the end of the day, he has not sat down and provided a public testimony under oath the way cassidy hutchinson has. >> interesting. >> so when we're talking about, you know, just sort of the oath, credibility, giving people the benefit of the doubt, at the end of the day it was hutchinson who was willing to go before congress, which, again, it's a crime to lie to congress. >> it is. >> yeah. >> we'll actually have carroll lentic talk about this in our 7:00 hour. "the washington post" jackie alamany, thank you. chuck rosenberg, thank you as well. still ahead a live report from the nato summit ahead of scheduled remarks from president biden. keir simmons is patiently standing by for us in madrid. we tend to go a little long in the first block. we'll get expert analysis from richard haas. >> on golf or on international security? >> president biden may be under
water with georgia voters, but he doesn't seem to be hurting democratic candidates in that state. we'll dig into some of the fascinating new polling. also ahead, if you're traveling, airlines are bracing for the summer's busiest travel weekend, including delta's warning about, quote, challenging disruption snoops now you warn us. >> now? >> telling us now after months of canceling flights? >> it's a big day for the supreme court as ketanji brown jackson gets sworn in this afternoon. wow. you're watching "morning joe." >> congratulations. >> we'll be right back. congras >> we'll be right back.
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summit in madrid where the alliance is outlining a new, stronger vision for the future it says. the leaders at the summit yesterday declared russia the most significant and direct threat to their country's peace and security. for the first time the alliance issued a warning about china, accusing it of bullying its neighbors and forming a strategic partnership with moscow that poses a challenge to the west. the leaders presented threats by beijing into a blue print for its strategy going forward. president biden unveiled military presence across europe. the president said the u.s. will deploy trips romania on a rotating basis and enhance other deployments in the baltic states. joining us from madrid, senior international correspondent keir simmons. keir, what's the latest there? >> reporter: well, willie, we're standing by for those news conferences by nato leaders including president biden. expect a lot of crowing and i think richard haas was right
speaking earlier, a lot of questions. one of the big questions, what changed between president biden and president erdogan. biden once called erdogan an au to crat. he was the last nato leader to congratulate president biden on his election victory, yet this week, they have looked like bros. we've heard from people in the room that the turkish defense minister was walking around yesterday saying we got what we wanted. is that f-16s, u.s. f-16s, for turkey? it does appear to revolve around events on tuesday. a senior administration official this week saying there was a call from president biden to president erdogan, but willie, we've also been talking to the finnish foreign minister who was in an 11th hour meeting with turkish officials on tuesday. listen to how he describes how it went right down to the wire.
>> i think the first four hours with the turkish delegation, with sweden and nato secretaryate. it was tough. two hours not moving anywhere. coffee break. during the coffee break people have new ideas and good process. >> there appears, at least on the surface, to have been some deals done, for example, with this issue of members of the kurdish community living in finland. have deals been done? >> i can say only from the finnish side no deals are there. we have said to turkey that we follow our own legislation and we are not going to change our legislation. if there comes a request from turkey we'll process accordingly. >> you made no promises? >> no promises because we cannot, of course, overcome our national legislation on this issue. >> no promises, no deals done, and yet, turkey now asking for
33 kurdish militants they say should be sent to turkey from switzerland and fin lan. the finnish foreign minister also telling us there was, he said, a good deal of pressure on turkey from members of congress, a bipartisan effort, he said, so just another example of how geopolitics has shifted this week. remember, turkey is just so important, they are involved in the negotiations to try and release that blockade in the black sea that threatens such a food crisis around the world. how things change, frankly. >> it's amazing. i also like, keir, how you describe a bilateral meeting as broing out between presidents biden and erdogan. keir simmons live from madrid, thanks so much as always. richard, you zeroed in on something in that initial report and that is the china piece of this, that nato stepped up pretty aggressively and talked about china and pushing back
against it. china, with a chilly response, as you can imagine, saying basically, stay out of the pacific. we -- this is our territory. what did you make of this step from nato? >> lots of moving parts. the lead story is the strengthening of nato against russia, but getting europeans doing more in nato not just the united states, which means the united states is freed up to do more in asia and deal with the chinese challenge. this is the 25th anniversary, among other things, of the chinese takeover of hong kong. xi jinping left the mainland, goes to hong kong, china violated its international commitments how it's dealt with hong kong, more repressive at home, much more militarily assertive. we face a world where the united states is confronting russia in europe, china in asia, the threat of a war against taiwan. that's one of the reasons ukraine is so important, willie. we do not want china learning the wrong lessons about that aggression here. an interesting question in europe going forward, will the
europeans work with us in sanctioning china to make clear to china that if it ever were to move against taiwan, it could face the sort of pressure that russia is facing now. this is a really interesting thing. we're taking what was largely a regional alliance nato, a european alliance, and the idea is whether we can in some ways globalize it. this is a big test for american foreign policy. >> it is a big test. it's fascinating. we've seen so many things happen over the past six months, but at least to my mind, it looks like the world is settling into a tripolar world. you have the united states, you have the eu, and you've got china. russia has a gdp even less, of course, than texas. while you've got the u.s. over 20 trill an year gdp. eu over 20 trillion a year gdp, plus britain, then china, a gdp over 20 trillion. it is fascinating to see,
again -- i think there's a growing recognition inside this administration that they can't behave the way donald trump did. you can't push people around. you can't insult allies. this is a battle between the west and the east, even if it's not a hot battle with xi as president tax as cold battle, that's why we're seeing these somewhat jarring photos of the president with erdogan. the president talking about the saudis and rebuilding the alliance with the saudis out of just out of realism, out of necessity, because the battle only gets more difficult from here and we're not talking about russia. it is, of course, as you said, china as well. >> yeah. i think you're right, joe. the administration in some ways has been mugged or at least sobered up by reality, and what you have is they've realized you can't have democracy and human
rights at the center of foreign policy, but whether it's turkey or saudi arabia, we have a real threat in europe with russia, we have a real threat in asia with china, we've got to work with partners, even if they're not necessarily democratic and that by the way is a larger point for american foreign policy. we can't -- whether dealing with climate change or china or russia or anything else, we can't necessarily choose the partners we want to have. we have to work with the partners that exist. this is reality. this is a demanding world. that's what i think we're seeing here. we've got a lot on our plates and we can't do it alone and we can't be so choosey as to who we decide to work with. >> let's turn to more from the searing rebuke of former president trump and the defense of conservatism that republican congresswoman liz cheney delivered last night at the reagan library. >> i'm a conservative republican, and i believe deeply in the policies of limited government, low tax, of a strong
national defense. i believe that family is the center of our community and of our lives. i believe those are the right policies for our nation. but i also know that at this moment, we're confronting a domestic threat that we have never faced before. and that is a former president, who was attempting to unravel the foundations of our constitutional republic. he is aided by republican leaders and elected officials who made themselves willing hostages to this dangerous and irrational man. as the full picture is coming into view with the january 6th committee, it has become clear that the efforts donald trump oversaw and engaged in were even more chilling and more threatening than we could have imagined. as we have shown, donald trump attempted to overturn the presidential election. he attempted to stay in office
and to prevent the peaceful transfer of presidential power. he summoned the mob to washington. he knew they were armed on january 6th. he knew they were angry. and he directed the violent mob to he knew they were angry. and he directed the violent mob to march on the capitol in order to delay or prevent completely the counting of electoral votes. he attempted to go there with him and when the violence was under ware you refused to tell the rioters to leave. instead he incited further violence by tweeting that the vice president mike pence was a coward. he said, quote, mike deserves it. and he didn't want to do anything in response to the hang mike pence chants. it is undeniable. it's also painful for republicans to accept.
and i think we all have to recognize and understand what it means to say those words and what it means that those things happened. but the reality that we face today as republicans, as we think about the choice in front of us, we have to choose. because republicans cannot both be loyal to donald trump and loyal to the constitution. at this moment -- [ applause ] >> holy cow. >> you see the line that got the applause. that is the choice. that is the choice. joining us now, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. and adam serwer. >> first off, lets talk about the applause at the reagan library. >> my question to you, joe, is it too late for the republican party in. >> listen, you know me. my friend eddie, we've talked
about this. i always believe in deathbed conversions. i'll take. but yes, it is too late for this republican party. seriously, i believe in deathbed conversions. i really do. i'm overly optimistic, i'll take anything. too late for this republican party. and you can look at the leaders. but as somebody earlier this week said on the show, it is not the leaders as much as it is the base. it is the base. that are chasing around these conspiracy theories. it is the base that chased around conspiracy theories about a pandemic that killed over a million people. it is the base that is spreading the lies about jewish space lasers, that are spreading the lies about the italian dude that is stealing the election.
it is the base that is feeding into all of this hatred. so, yeah, i think it is too late for this republican party. i think they may do well and in the midterm elections. i'm not so sure, if you look at a georgia poll and they pick so many in their primaries but i think in the long run, the only way they get reform is they get beaten. eddie, you believe in deathbed conversions, i know. but it seems to me that it is even too late for this republican party, for this trump republican party to reform itself. >> i think you're right, joe. i think it needs to be burned to the ground. i don't want to use that -- i know that verb is kind of strong. >> not literally. >> yeah. not literally. >> figuratively. >> figuratively. >> in the political sense. >> right. absolutely.
i think i want to -- i want to expand it a little bit too, joe. i think we have to ask ourselves the question, because liz cheney delivers this talk at the reagan library and we to ask what is the status of the ideology of reaganism. have we experienced over the last few years, over the last decade, a sense of which reaganism has revealed itself as bankrupt and what we have instead are the principles that liz cheney laid out is kind of grievance, the culture wars as the substance of a kind of republican ideology alongside a cynical pursuit of power and if those are the only two pillars of a republican party and those of us committed to democracy would say that it has to go to the side. put it to the side. not burn it down. put it to the side. >> yeah. well, yeah. exactly. that is why i'm here to help you, eddie. so richard, i know that many
people on the left like to say this is all reagan. i know there are a lot of things that reagan did and margaret thatcher did that people on the left were deeply concerned about. legitimately. in some things that i was concerned about deeply. concerned about legitimately. you could start with the apartheid policy toward south africa. there are parts of reaganism that were, i think, very important. at least to my mind. you look at his position toward the soviet union, calling it an evil empire, that killed over 30 million perhaps of their own people. and you talk to people in eastern europe they will tell you that ronald reagan wassin des pinsible of taking down the wall and you look at reagan's approach toward immigration. same there. there were a lot of terrible blind spots.
that said, this party, they can't lay claim to the positive parts of reaganism. because they have so twisted and they've just so twisted the ideology. i mean american conservatism as we've known it is dead. and i think even some trumpers will say that. >> i hope no. let me sort of full disclosure, i worked for ronald reagan for five years. at the state and a lot of things i agreed with, and a lot of things i disagreed with him. but he was within the 30 yard line, the 40 yard line. he was a conservative. he did believe in institutions and american democracy. he was positive. he didn't talk about carnage. he talked about the american dream. and liz cheney, basically artic tated what we used to call conservative republicanism. again you could have policy
disagreements but it took place within a set of assumptions. she never believes in anything. she rejected with every core of her being poll tys of behaviors that are inconsistent with the norms and precepts of democracy. rond reagan said the most important room in america is the dining room because that is where parents teach their children about democracy. and that is the kind of language that you don't hear out of contemporary republicans. so i actually hope there is a place there this country for a revival of real conservatives because otherwise we don't have a loyal opposition in this country without it. >> adam, in your latest piece for the atlantic, you write about the january 6 hearing and the effect it may have on republican senators who shielded former president trump from impeachment. adam writes this. even without this information, the senate should have cob fikted trump. the plain fact are that the president tried to violently
over throw the government united states. they ensured he would be aquoited during the second impeachment. they are laughable in hindsight. but also disturbing in their frailty because history suggests when attempted to seize power by force are not punished thor mir likely to reoccur and more likely to succeed when they do. it was not sufficient it tourn republican senators against trump. now that he's reassert his grip on the party there is little chance they will discover reserve of courage. so we have seen some members of the white house, of trump's white house emboldened to speak out. but crickets and silence and whitewashing from establishment republicans in congress. senators and congress people. and when i saw your piece posted, let's not forget that senators like ted cruz and josh hally, after the insurrection
and the attack on the capitol when congress reconvened still bloated to block certification of the election in certain states. >> i want to modify what joe said earlier about the base. it is true that base, the politicians in office are afraid of the base and they don't want to anger the base. but the other aspect is that the base is not coming up with wild conspiracy theories about italians hacking the election system by themselves. they are hearing these theories from a conservative propaganda network that prevents them from hearing contrary information that might change their minds like what we're seeing in the january 6 hearing. and that tells them that anything that goes wrong is actually the result of a wild liberal conspiracy to prevent them from executing or exercising their constitutional rights. so in this case, the lie that the election was rigged, it is something that not only donald trump said but that the conservative media repeated and the base trusted because it came
from sources that they thought were legitimate and did not consider those things. so it is a bit of a cycle. where people are hearing these things that are not true and ridiculous and absurd but they believe them because those sources are cultivated trust even though they are propaganda machines. and then as a result, the politicians who because this is a democracy, are beholden to this base that believes this propaganda has to act on it in that way. or, i mean, in some cases they don't. you could see that liz cheney, despite being a very conservative politician, has chosen to stand up to both the conservative media and to those in her party who have attempted to silence her. but that is a dressing. politicians don't do that. we admire politicians who do that because it is a rare quality. but i think it is not just the question of the base. there is a cycle here that happens that is creating this problem. >> like many, i think republicans, liz cheney just wants her party back.
and joe, the question for adam, we can close this out, where we began, in the question is, is it rotten to the core? you have people running on the lie and offices from the bottom to the stop, from state to local to gubernatorial, all the way up, running on the big lie. some of them winning on the big lie. how do you fix that? it seems that it has taken hold. >> and adam, it is not just what they say. it is not just the conspiracy theories that they spew. but as you make great point, it is what they don't say. it is when they remain silent. it is when they sit there and they go through the madness of trumpism really from the beginning. he comes out in 2015 and early december of 2015 and he's talking about a muslim registry. it only goes downhill from there. and these establishment republicans one by one, as trump
gets worse and worse, the endorsements pile up. as they rush to the power. and it is more of the same and more of the same as you say through the impeachment process and through the madness of donald trump. >> thank you. donald trump's connection to the conservative base comes to a large extent from his willingness to repeat whatever he reads in conservative media to make them feel what they are believing, they are not crazy even though the mainstream media may say what they believe is not true. he's validating and that is creating the emotional connection, between donald trump and the conservative base and other politicians would imitate him. >> staff writer at the atlantic, adam serwer, thank you for coming on. >> thank you, adam. >> so the january 6 committee has issue add a subpoena for the testimony of trump white house counsel pat cipollone.
they are compelling him to appear for a deposition next wednesday, just 6th after the repeated requests for him to testify and one day after he was featured in bombshell testimony from cassidy hutchinson. he sat for an informal interview in april. but in a letter to the white house counsel, the committee writes you have declined to cooperate with us further including by providing on the record testimony. we're left with no choice but to issue you this subpoena. the committee states it is obtained evidence about which cipollone is uniquely positioned to testify. although other parts of her testimony were more damming to the former president, trump alleys are using questions about what story cassidy hutchinson told on tuesday to try to undermine the credibility of her entire hearing.
>> i looked at tony and he had said, did you hear what happened in the beast? and i said no, tony, i just got back. what happened? tony proceeded to tell me that when the president got in the beast, he thought that they were going up to capitol and would bobby related to him, we're not, we don't have the access to do it, it is it is not secure, we're going back to the west wing, the president had very strong, very angry response. the president reached towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. trump then used his free hand to lung toward bobby engle and when mr. ornoto explaining it to me, he grabbed his clavicle. >> chief of staff tony onoto,
said he would testify to it under oath. and the agency is not denying the former president was angry about not being taken to the capitol. only whether or not there was an altercation. but now other trump white house aides, communications director alyssa ferrot and olivia troy are pushing back against the supposed denial. they say this wouldn't be the first time he denied conversations with he had with his former colleagues and orn atto to to the white house adviser was highly unprecedented at the time. it is still employed right now by the secret service. >> he obviously is a trumper. he's all in. could we put up those tweets again before we bring in carol. i just want to look and see. there is a guy that -- went from being secret service guy to working for trump, to secret
service guy. olivia troy said, tony onaughto. those of us would worked with tony know where's his loyalties lie. he should testify under oath. and then alyssa griffin writes tony orn otto lies about me too. they needed to stage their report clearing the square. we weren't doing that. tony later lied and said that the exchange never happened. he knows it did. so, again, certainly mika, it sounds like from trump's staffers who were there, this guy lies and he lies out of the
what he considers to be loyalty to donald trump. >> well, you have to look at where we're at. a lot of the reasons why we are where we are is because a lot of people were afraid to do anything that would upset the president. even if things were highly inappropriate. that is an understatement. >> who knows. maybe somebody called him up or owed him, threatened him. >> maybe he got one of those tests like vice president. >> you better lie under oath. so we'll see if he's going to lie under oath or not. because of course nobody believes him. there are people that are on another channel to are desperate to believe him. but no one can believe him. >> and one of the inconsistencies came from the 2021 book "i alone can fix can" by carol leonig and philip rucker. she's written another book about the trump white house entitled
"a very stable genius" and i third about the history of the secret service entitled "zero fail." so she knows a thing or two about all of this and the investigator for "the washington post" joins us now. so what do you make of the emphasis that some far right networks and republicans are making about ornoto. >> first of all, agree with you joe and mika, that the situation is not so great. thiss a person who worked as president trump's security detail leader. and the boss liked him so much. he installed him in a political white house job. that broke every secret service tradition in the book. because he stayed as a secret
service employee, but trump essentially had him directing the secret service to make sure that all of its campaigns events, all of his photo ops, everything that he wanted to do to get re-elected went off without a hitch. >> that included paid rallies that caused covid surges and included the forcible clearing of peaceful protesters from lafayette square. tony was the secret hand behind all of that. and that is what trump wanted. trump white house staffers and secret service agents have told me repeatedly, he's a trump aco light. he will defend the president to the end. and he remains in contact with trump world. so, i want to stress that also tony ornoto has indicated that this story cassidy hutchinson told didn't happen. well, tony ornato said a lot of things didn't happen.
he tried to say to the press and to me indirectly that the clearing of lafayette square was not done for president trump's photo on. that's not true. he was at the center of that. so i take the points because they're saying in their experience, things that we reported, tony tried to deny. i'll say this as an additional remark, mika and joe, the secret service often tries to deny things that are unflattering and then when the rubber hits the road, we learn there is a little bit more to it. i want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and if tony ornato testified under oath that he exaggerated this story and it didn't happen in the limo, forgive my, in the suburban on january 6 as she relayed, then that is important and we should take that seriously. >> and cassidy hutchinson is not
playing a game of telephone. she quoted directly tony ornoto, and she stepped into the office and he told her the details of the story the way she described it with the lunging and the grabbing of the wheel. and i want to ask you about the other man in that room. bobby engle. the lead agent in that for president trump who was also in the suburban that day. there has been some talk that he's a trump loyalist. what more do we know about him? >> bobby engle is also viewed as extremely aligned with president trump. a supporter of his. but ultimately a professional algt, who let's be honest, made the right call on january 6 and told the president no, we're not going sir. the secret service has confirmed that multiple times. we wrote about that. i wrote about that a few weeks ago. the president had been agitating to go on that march. bobby engle got word of this from tony ornato before january 6 and said that is not happening.
on january 6, when mark meadows sort of led the president to believe that he might be able to go up to the capitol after his rally at the ellipse, with tens of thousands of people becoming a mob by the president, meadows doesn't come clean with the president. he just basically said, hey, maybe you'll be able to go. i think. talk to bobby. bobby engle is the person who takes the lions roar in the face and said, no, sir, that is not happening because it would have been insane for president trump to take a motorcade up to the capitol without anybody marking the motorcade, without any metropolitan police department officials able to close down a safe route, that would have been insanity. and by the way, at the same time, metropolitan police department officers were being called on an emergency basis by the capitol police because an early group of protesters, now
we know they were the proud boys and the oath keepers were on the way breaking through police barriers heading up to the hill of the capitol. >> so, carol, ufr written a book about secret service. you know about them well. if this happened inside the beast, what is the likelihood that the people inside reported that to the secret service and there is some records somewhere, or spoke to other people who weren't fierce trump loyal iltist because as you know and a lot of people inside of washington know. there were sp fierce trump loyalists inside of the secret service, so much so that it caused some concerns in the biden administration early on. but is the secret service as a whole, is it an organization that would record something like
this and then get that information in front of the committee or would they try to bury it as well. >> joe. it is a great question. and i wish i could answer you definitively about the limo driver who is a fairly young agent. young in his career. and i can't tell you what their previcely going to say other than they have told their bosses they -- that bobby engle was not assaulted. they have told their bosses that there was no lunge for the steering wheel. but i will just caution everybody, i've heard the secret service deny a lot of things that turned out to be true. and it turned out to be true in records, they turned out to be true in various things, joe. your question about was it recorded? if bobby engle and the g-13 limo driver are the only people in this vehicle and there may have
been a third. but those are the two key people in this vehicle, it is bobby engle's decision to report whether he's been assaulted by the president. it is a crime to assault a federal officer. but bobby epgle is under no obligation to say i feel like i was assaulted. if he had a hand placed on his shoulder, on his clavicle, maybe he just said, hey, mr. president, settle down. we don't know yet. but it is not incumbents on him to record that and i have to say every detail leader that i've talked to, former detail leader that i've talked to in the last day has said if the president came at me, i don't think i would report that as an assault on a federal officer. a detail leaders would not do that. i will tell you that there is one other critical thing to remark upon and that is cassidy hutchinson's testimony. i spoke with the former head of
biden's detail yesterday and he said -- i want to put this just right. he said as a former polygraph examiner, cassidy hutchinson was not lying. the material she provided was so specific and so carefully described that that was a story she was told in those details. nobody could make that up. so, it is possible she heard it from someone different. it is possible that tony ornato exaggerated what he told cassidy. >> that is true. >> we just don't know at this point. >> yeah, we don't know. >> that is something that could have happened where like the story, you when you have a story as dramatic as that and a bunch of guys talking, you know, it could have definitely been -- >> except for the fact he looked shaken when he walked in. she said they were standing around and he looked shaken by what happened.
and then described it. so we'll see what happens. and we'll see if they want to perjure themselves and get sent to jail in front of the committee. that is their choice. maybe they could get a discount and get mark meadows attorney and they could all pitch in together. maybe get the jail cell next to each other. carol, i want to talk about the secret service in general. and this story that we heard where the secret service agent said, sir, basically get your hand off the steering wheel, you're going to the white house. and the president being enraged wanting to go to the capitol. and it reminded me of a documentary i saw and i love for you to talk about it since you've written a book on the secret service. a documentary on the 20th anniversary of 9/11. and there you had george w. bushily saying i want to go to washington. i need to get back to the white house. they sent him to louisiana.
he gets angry. he said get me back to the white house. they're flying him out to the command center in the midwest. and he just completely explodes and andy card said, something along the lines of the president is going crazy and we would-v to go back to washington and the president of the united states in the middle of this crisis and said, mr. president, with all due respect, this is not your plane, it is ours. and it just reminded me exactly what happened in the capitol where they're basically saying the same thing. mr. president, this is not your suburban, it is ours. we're going back to the white house. it is pretty extraordinary. just generally about our country that they've set air force one, they've set the presidential limousines, they've set all of these things up in such a way where the secret service could veto the president of the united states for his own or her own protection. >> i'm so glad, so glad that you
focused on this. because it is such a tension point in the secret service. i've interviewed a lot of senior agents and many of them describe it this way. if it's nuts, if it is absolutely crazy, we lock it down and we say, no way, mr. president. but everything up until that point, the secret service tries to accommodate the president's demands and wishes. like, they want to do what he wants to do. but if it is untenable, they put down their heels and say sorry, wheels down, we're not going there. i'll give you a couple of examples. your george bush example is fantastic. but another one is remember 9/11 dick cheney, jimmy scott, an agent on his detail, hearing on the radio there is an incoming plane coming toward washington and it is quite delayed that he got that news.
he runned into the vice president's office inside of the white house and lifts his by his belt loops to the front door. the vice president is resisting going that second. and the agent is like, oh, no, we are going. and literally cheney is not exactly a small person. but they take him to the threshold by his belt loop. there are other examples of this that are kind of stunning. but in the course of donald trump's administration, as you guys have so carefully laid out over and over and over again, all of the norms were busted. all of the rules were tossed out of the window. and so i'm pretty heartened by this moment where bobby engle said, no, sir. and joe, you mentioned that he was shaken. you mentioned that cassidy saw that. i believe she saw that. and i believe what she saw was an agent who basically got his face ripped off to use the
colloquial term for how donald trump reacted to people saying no to him. >> "the washington post" carol leonig, thank you very much. absolutely fascinating. i'm sure we'll see you again soon. thank you for your reporting. we're going to turn overseas. russia is issuing fresh warnings to finland and sweeten over their decision to join the nato alliance. president vladimir putin yesterday said moscow would respond in time if the nordic country as loued nato troops an military infrastructure into their territories. putin said russia would have to, quote, create the same threats for the territories from which threats against us are created. all right. joining us from the nato summit in madrid, the host of way too early, jonathan lemire. jonathan, the fresh warnings, how is the nato alliance, the
leaders responding? >> reporter: well, mika, the nato alliance is on a strong. they feel like they have over these last few days really demonstrated a unity here in madrid among their nations. a group of nations growing from 30 to 32. after that deal, turkey signed off. finland and sweden are joining the alliance. really dramatically expanding the border that the alliance now has with russia. 800 or so miles as well as more territory along the black sea. they are of course, they take everything russia said seriously but they feel like this is largy putin and moscow spouting off in frustration. we heard from president biden yesterday with the new forced posture unveiling new troop deployments throughout europe making this the focus, adding focus to russia to prevent further russian aggression as well as nodding for the first time in a nato document toward
the possible threats posed by china as well. we're going to hear from the president later this morning. he's holding a news conference as he concludes his trip and we'll anticipate hearing from him. his further commitment and his sacrosanct commitment to the nato alliance and article 5 as it stands up to russia and what the secretary general of this body said it the most important moment nato faces since world war 2. >> jonathan lemire, thank you very much. let' bring in british ambassador to the united states, karen pierce. and i will send it to the president at the council of foreign relations richard haass for the first question. >> madam ambassador, good to see you. you have a lot of pledges coming out of the european government including your own. do you think this public support for the kind of sustained higher levels of defense spending and defense effort so even if ultimately there is change in parties and the rest, that the u.k. government is saying now we'll continue to be british
policy and you've got a lot of knowledge obviously, if you're in germany and france, whether you think europe has turned the page? >> i think most people in europe most citizens realize this is a grave situation for european security. you see it in finland and sweden wanting to join nato. 18 months ago, even last year, there wasn't enough popular support to put in a nato access request. and now there is. so i think that is a strong indication. public is rightly worried about the cost of living. very worried about fuel. but they get the point that this is a big strategic issue. and i think yes, there is a lot of support for doing more. both to help ukraine, but also to defend europe. >> and you also think that in the category of doing more, you would have a willingness to take serious steps which we haven't seen so far on reducing imports of russian natural gas which is
essentially funding this war or potentially sanctioning china to take a much tougher stance. to essentially see europeans prepared to see economic contraction or economic pain. just take a bit of it in order to achieve strategic goals or is that a bridge too far? >> well we have to take into account what people feel about the cost of living. but the g-7 and other countries have pledged to reduce dependency on russian fuel, on russian hido carbons. the g7 this week agreed to cap on the price of russian oil. so putin can't replenish his coffers. of course these things aren't easy and governments have to take account of the needs of their citizens. but at the moment there are widespread support for standing up to mr. putin and taking necessary measures over time. to have a transition away from the dependency on russian oil. >> a lot of different steps being taken including increase
of troops and the word permanent being used in nato countries including poland. you could explain the significance of that, a lot of americans may think why are we sending more people abroad, why do we need to do this. what does this do for the strength of nato in light of what is happening in ukraine? >> i think it really helps nato. it shows nato is a strong and dynamic organization. able to respond to security threats. although today russia is fighting in ukraine, the next stayday it could be another country. you've already seen that president trump has made threats against sweden and finland. this is what collective security means. and we are very grateful. we acknowledge the enormous american and contributions to nato. we make a leading contribution as britain. but all other nations are starting to increase their
defense spending and this is something that president putin has brought about fundamentally. >> all right. british ambassador to the united states, karen pierce. thank you very much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> so fascinating. such a fascinating time. richard, before we go to commercial, we've heard conflicting information about where this is going, they're picking up territory bit by bit and over the last weekend "the washington post" ran an article that talked about western analysts said the russian war machine was wearing down, that it couldn't keep going indefinitely. i'm curious, what are you hearing what are your sources telling you about where this war is right now? other than the fact that both sides are enduring heavy losses. how long can russia fight this war? >> my sense, joe, is they can't fight it for a long time.
they could always adjust down the intensity of combat operations if need be because of shortages. so they want to reduce casuals. i think the other variable is on the ukrainian side, whether and when the united states and the european countries get more advanced weapons in the hands of ukraine. when they get trained up on those. so the last month, the two months is obviously been relatively good for russia. most of the people i know think that the next couple of months at some point might begin to move more in ukraine's direction. but not enough to change the basic. and i think the larger truth is that we had better think about this becoming part of the new normal that we face a prolongs protracted conflict that will flare-up and flare down. like the russian attacks on kyiv, that could come and go. but the biggest thing is large set piece conflict in the south and the east and think that will remain the status quo for quite
sometime. >> so let me ask you, why do we always overestimate russia's capabilities? you could take back to the russia and japanese war, you could take it back to world war 1, world war 2 fighting, after they get to moscow. but they threw 27 million of their people in front of the nazi war machine. and we could talk about the war with finland before. we could talk about what we were saying about the soviet union through the 70s and 80s while they were rotting from within, and collapsing. we always overestimate the russians. we've done it again. and i jest wonder if we're overestimating the staying power of putin's war machine now that the soviet -- now that the russian economy has shrunk to again levels less than texas. i mean, these wars are costly.
and i just wonder if we're not going to see what happened in 1989 happening at the end of 2022. >> as long as russia could continue to sell in particular its gas to europe, and it is finding ways to sell its coal and oil and to others and india and china are picking up the slack. given the importance of pipelines, i would keep a focus. that is the sanction that could bite and we could be years away from that so i don't see russia at a critical point. but i think you're on to something. is that we constantly exaggerate the strength of a russian military and some of the historical moments where russia has done best militarily is when they've been on the defense. defending mother russia. which is one thing. they don't do nearly as well on the offense. they don't have the culture and you don't get awarded for
improvication. and that is what we've seen in ukraine. but we don't see a capable combined arms military which is by the way i think there is zero -- zero is too strong, but you think there is a chance that the russians take on nato. i think that is a real mismatch. so i don't think that coming up. but the ability to stay in a slog. a war of attrition, i think that is probably real. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe." we'll return to madrid at the top of our third hour for president biden's news conference wrapping up the nato summit. plus here at home, the administration is working to ward off another surge of coronavirus infections in the fall. we'll be joined by white house covid-19 response coordinator dr. ashish jha. and plus it is a tough time for air travelers as thousands of flights continue to get canceled. but the airlines are hoping
flight schedules will get back to normal in time for the holidays. >> oh, that is great. that is just next week. >> no. the only problem is that holiday is thanksgiving. it is not good. tom costello joins us next. we'll be right back. wel 'lbe right back.(laughs) breyers. 100% grade a milk and cream, and loaded with delicious cookie pieces. better starts with breyers. ♪ i want to rock and roll all night ♪ ♪ and party every day. ♪ ♪ i want to rock and roll all night ♪ applebee's late night. because half off is just more fun. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. fishing helps ease my mind. it's kinda like having liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. woah! look out! [submarine rising out of water] [minions making noise]
♪♪ 36 past the hour. live look at reagan national airport and a lot of planes just sitting there. yeah. let's talk about this travel troubles at airports nationwide. delays and cancellations are wreaking havoc as we head into the july 4th holiday weekend. joining us now live from reagan national airport, correspondent tom costello. tom, i'm scared to ask, how bad is it going to be?
>> well, listen, the good news is right now we have blue skies over much of the country. of course it is early, right. we know that weather always causes problems during the day and cancellations at moment 338 cancellations right now for today. that follows 640 yesterday. i just checked and i'm looking on the computer right now. most effective airlines right now, american airline canceling more than 100 flights already. also following them, we have delta airlines. most effected airports are newark, has a few cancellations on top of that toronto, how appropriate, you were just playing "rush" they have weather up there. the bottom line is we have 11 million people moving through the system from today through monday. that is a a lot of people. we don't have as many seats and planes as we had back in 2019 but we're pushing 2019 cancel numbers and the cancellations
are unlick lie to get better any time soon. and not enough flight attendant and pilots and customer service representatives to answer the phones and you were suggesting this could last, we hope not, we hope it is solved by the holidays, thanksgiving and christmas, because it takes time to hire and train enough pilots. they're hoping they could right size their schedules in accordance with staffing levels, enough pilots by thanksgiving. by christmas. let's hope it is sooner than that. but that is the next true test and so the pressure is going to be building over the next few months to ensure that they've got the schedule in position. >> so, tom, the airlines received a big government bailout. and i guess the question that taxpayers and travelers want to know is, why didn't they spend
it increasing pay for their pilots. why didn't they spend it increasing the pay for their flight attendants, why didn't they spend it staffing up? i mean, this is -- i got to say it is maddening. i've had trouble meeting up with my children over the past several months because one flight after another flight, after another flight got canceled and move to the next day and that flight gets canceled. our flights get canceled. that's fine. we're pretty flexible. but there are a lot people out there that have jobs, where they have to be in cities to get that job done for medical reasons and it is just maddening. what did the airlines do with all of the money. how did they let all of these pilots and flight attendants and staff members quit? >> reporter: yeah by and the way
people going to graduations and they got $54 billion with a b, to keep their staff in place because you'll recall this airport and every other airport was empty during the pandemic and not fire anybody. but the trouble is the airlines never anticipated we would have this kind of a resurgence in passenger traffic to they let the pilots retire early. that is the problem. they let all of these people retire early and flight attendants also and it takes time to retrain pilots. on top of that, even some pilots who took a leave of absence, the airlines did not maintain their certification during that time. they're training during that time. so now they're really behind the eight ball. they don't have enough pilots an the pilots who came back because it was a short-term leave of absence, they may not be certified back in the cockpit again. i think in hindsight, there were
presumptions that we've never had and now they're trying to catch up and it will take probably years, years to catch up and make sure that they are fully staffed again. >> it is absolutely -- >> nbc's tom costello, thank you. >> thank you, tom. mika, it is discouraging, the billionaires get these massive companies, multi-national corporations get a bailout from the government and then they let the pilots retire early probably to save even more money. let flight attendants retire early to save money and they don't staff up. and so now they've got all of the money. they got the $54 billion. they've got people jamming the airports so they're making money now. >> not going to argue that. the question will be, did they -- because it takes a certain amount of time to make a pilot flight ready, were they
preparing? and it doesn't seem like they were. because the pandemic had sort of a -- i would say a possible end to it globally. a lot of countries weren't going as well, there were struggles in this country. so i could -- i want to hear more. i do understand the bailout makes it look bad. >> it makes it look bad. it also makes it look bad that they're letting the pilots retire early. companies and corporations let people retire early because they figure out it is good for bottom line. and that is what happened here. they're looking at the bottom line. even as they're getting a $54 billion bailout and now a lot of americans, again, who are trying to get to graduations, who are trying to get to weddings, trying to to loved ones funerals, getting to family reunions and trying to get to jobs, not able to do that. because i say because of the greed of these companies.
i can't wait to hear the testimony before capitol hill. eddie glaude, we showed reagan national before we came in. we've been talking about the republican party. there is a quote to show how far this party has moved on say an issue of immigration. this is reagan's farewell speech. while other countries cling to the stale past, here in america we breathe life into dreams. we create the future and the world follows us into tomorrow. he's talking about immigration, here. thanks to each wave of new arrivals to this land of opportunity, we're a nation forever young. forever bursting with energy and new ideas and always on the cutting-edge, always leading the world to the next frontier, this is vital to our future as a nation. if we ever close the door to new americans our leaders shirp in the world would soon be lost.
that is not something that reagan said like five and a half years into his presidency to a specific audience. that was reagan's farewell address. underlining it. eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex. and reagan warns about not welcoming migrants to this country because when he said we stopped welcoming migrants to the country, our leadership in the world would soon be lost. how unbelievable -- what a radical departure from his views at least on immigration, eddie. >> absolutely. and but i think it is always interesting to kind of juxtapose the stated ideal with the practice. so we know that there is this piece of legislation, other than the voting rights act that was passed in 1965, was the immigration act that passed in
1965 which changed the quotas. an we know there is an ongoing debate since the past, since it was signed into law, about that particular shift in immigration policy. how it changed the very framework and ever since 1965, we've been having a debate. and still today, there are those who long to go back to the immigration framework of 1924. legislation basically written by white supremacists. so i think it is really important to always understand the relationships, the gap between our stated descriptions of who we are, and what we do on the ground. our actual practice. the american idea and the fight over who we actually are. >> and again, reagan speaking, speaking of reagan, well eddie, i'll keep it with you, a lot of conservatives still haven't forgiven reagan because he
signed an immigration act that allowed millions of illegal migrants to come into this country. and become citizens. of course now we're having trouble even getting the levels up for refugees without conservatives so-called conservatives getting angry. i wanted to ask you, we're coming up obviously on the fourth of july weekend, yesterday on twitter i said despite all of our failings, despite all of our short comings, why are you proud, even with aum of our flaws, why are you proud to be an american. got some extraordinary responses. really moving responses and quite a few people right now, well, they're not so sure they are proud to be americaned. obviously i don't feel that way. but many do. i'm curious, what are your thoughts? going into this fourth of july weekend on pride and being an american? >> 4th of july has been a vexed holiday for me. given the tradition out of which
i come. it is framed by juneteenth, the way in which we struggle with the legacy of slavery. but i want to echo something i got from the secretary lonnie bunch and i used it earlier that america is more than an idea. it is more than an argument. it is a fight. and the tradition out of which i come are those people who in some ways america turned its back on. who have fought for generations for an idea that is more just and loving and more open. and it is in that sense, because my great grand mom is buried in moss point, mississippi, and so this place is mine. and all of its ugliness and all of its beauty and what it can be. and i think that where i kind of reside and in that poem from langston hughes and the speech by frederick douglass, the july 5th speech, to the claim of who
we can be and set ourselves up to fight for that vision of who we can be. >> let america be america again. let it be the dream that it used to be. let it be the pioneer on the plain seeking a home where he himself is free. america was never america to me. it is extraordinary and looking again at all of our short comings and our failures and what we failed to be, but also aspirational, what a great poem i think for everybody to read this fourth of july weekend. >> indeed. >> for sure. so we were just talking about the impact on the airline industry. we have an update on covid-19 developments. the biden administration is ordering more than 100 million doses of an updated pfizer covid vaccine. this move was announced
yesterday. in anticipation of a fall booster campaign to fight off a renewed covid surge. if the fda approves the new formula, the first shots specifically targeting the omicron variant would be delivered in several months. the order will cost more than $3 billion using money that was redirected from other areas of the administration's covid response. join us now, white house covid 19 response coordinator dr. ashish jha, it is get to have you back on the show. what is the sub verity so far of the omicron variant and covid that we're seeing across the country and maybe what is the death rate that might help describe what the severity is. >> yeah. so mika, thanks for having me back and great to be back in the studio here. so omicron variant has been with us since january. and compared to delta, the last version we have had, it is a
little bit milder. but the truth is, it is still a very dangerous variant. particularly if you're not vaccinated and boosted. what we've seen over the last six months, that this is been with us, that it killed tens of thousands of americans. 300 deaths a day. is that across the country, nationwide? are there certain areas that have more deaths? is there any way to break that down?
>> absolutely. what we have seen throughout the whole pandemic, but certainly right now, you see more deaths in places where vaccination and booster rates are lower. we have a highly effective treatment. we have plenty of it. some places are using a lot. there has those decisions and deaths are low. other places are low, and there deaths are higher. it varies from region to region. we have to get these treatments out to more people. >> the boosters. we are talking a fourth shot. the campaign in the fall. for people who got their three shots, it might feel like they might not need to do that. shots for kids. what are you seeing in terms of americans being receptive to the fourth shot? what about vaccinations for their kids? what the reality of people actually getting those? >> that's different. let's look at those separately.
after they authorized it, they started getting it out. because these are little kids, we did not set up mass vaccination shots. most parents would get their kids vaccinated in pediatrician offices. family practice offices. that is what is happening across the country. we are seeing that going on. it's going to roll on through the summer, fall, and winter. kids will get vaccinated. that really builds over time. that's what we are expecting for children. in terms of the fall campaign. the vaccines we have are terrific. they were built two years ago. they were built against the original variant. they are terrific at keeping you out of the hospital, and keeping you out of the mortgage. the truth is that the virus has evolved so much, we really do need an update. the bottom line is that we do this every year for the flu. 50 or 60% of the americans get the shot. i expect a large proportion of
americans to get that booster. the very specific booster that is here this fall and winter. we are trying to do everything we can to make sure we have enough doses. at this point, we are not on track to have enough doses for every american. congress decided not to fund the ongoing code response. we might have to make tough choices. are in right now. >> i know that was a question. is the covid shot going to end up being like the flu shot? at some point, will we not have to get it? >> a good question. right now, we don't have a vaccine that's going to give you lifelong protection. the vaccine so far, six to 12 months of protection. as we continue to make improvements, we are going to an annual covid shot. right now, we are making progress. that is the goal. get it to once a year. that's a great way to manage
the virus. >> 20 million people around the world have died from covid-19. how much better are we know positioned for next year in covid 2023 or 2024? how much has the world learned? how do we internalize that? are we better off to the next pandemic or virus? >> great question. we are clearly better off. we have done a lot to build up surveillance systems. we have demonstrated that we can build vaccines very quickly. i worry that we are not spending enough time learning the lessons of this one. i worry that people are tired of this pandemic, and they want to move on. we all want to move on. for the average american, i totally understand that. for the political leaders, that's not okay. we have to lessen this pandemic. understand what went right and wrong. a lot of things went wrong. i don't know that we are spending enough time really looking at that carefully.
it you're making sure that we learn those lessons and apply them for future pandemics. >> white house covid-19 response coordinator, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. richard hoff, thank you as well. sorry we didn't talk about golf today. >> we will get back this weekend. i know you will be watching. >> i will be glued to the television. i find golf to be fascinating. coming up, we will get back to the latest developments with the january 6th committee. the panel has the key figure from the trump white house administration, they need to give it under oath. the committee chair says it's time for republicans to make a choice. the constitution, or donald trump. we will be right back. back.
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sites. over the past five, six, or seven years, you're not seeing that. i was running around the january 6th committee. what donald trump was much worse than any of us could have expected. again, most of the anti-tran19 brigades, they are cowards that are hiding behind the phony post. even they have given up the ghost. they understand that this is a president who tried to avert the constitution. they inspired the mob. wanted them to take weapons up to the capitol, and was trying to get up to the capitol themselves mussolini style, to declare himself president for four more years. >> will be talking about this for the ladies and the january
6th committee. we are wrapping up the nato conference in spain. it's wrapping up any moment right now. we are jumping into that live when it begins. >> these guys seem to like him? he's not pushing anybody out of the way to get a picture x >> they like him a lot. >> what a change. we are going to hear from president joe biden, and just a few minutes worried begin the hour from january 6th committee. they are issuing a subpoena for the donald trump white house counsel. he was prominently in bombshell testimonies. chief white house correspondent, has the story. >> reporter: overnight, a key figure for the january 6th procession, had a committee hearing from the bombshell actions this week. he had a subpoena late wednesday. with a specific interest in
evidence that he repeatedly raised legal and other concerns about mr. donald trump's activities, leading up to and on january 6th. after former white house aide, cassidy hutchinson, tried to stop the president's original plan to join his supporters, as they advanced on the capitol. >> he said something to the fact of please make sure we don't go to the capitol. we will get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> we need to go right now. >> reporter: we were telling nbc news that the subpoena was considered before being transcribed, not public testimony. we are saying that he's evaluating what he might tell the committee, based on executive privilege. the first public comments since cassidy hutchinson had her testimony, they praised her courage. other donald trump allies have refused to testify.
>> her superiors, then many years older, and number of them are hiding behind executive privilege. they have anonymity, and intimidation. these days, for the most part, men are running the world. it is really not going that well. [ applause ] [ laughter ] >> reporter: other people had cassidy hutchinson praised for her testimony. they said that rachel maddow, never had a presidential pardon. she did not testify under oath, and denied to cooperate with the committee. she signed executive privilege. others backed her testimony. donald trump, got physical with his lead service agent inside the presidential suv. the secret service is now saying that its agents are available to testify under oath. cassidy hutchinson, standing by all the testimonies that she provided under oath. warning that republicans cannot be loyal to both donald trump,
and the constitution. >> we are confronting a domestic threat that we have never faced before. that is a former president who was attempting to unravel the foundations of the constitutional republic. >> quite a speech at the reagan library last night. let's bring in chief white house correspondent, peter baker. let's begin with the subpoena that the committee announced yesterday. obviously, after the testimony from cassidy hutchinson, he would very much like to get under oath so that he could corroborate some of the details that cassidy hutchinson provided the committee. do you think you will show up for this a subpoena? do you think he needed this subpoena to be compelled to actually say that he has to go in now? he didn't want to under executive privilege. with the subpoena, maybe i will sit for at least transcribed testimony. >> reporter: that's an important point. a lot of people who have been attached, still want the subpoena as cover.
to explain for instance, why they had to go and testify. they didn't have a choice. it was a legal order. that doesn't necessarily mean that he's not going to come. if he does, he's going to maybe answer all questions. he's an important figure in all of this. we had an important testimony from cassidy hutchinson. also including some important people from the justice department white house officials. they talk about how he resisted in those days and weeks leading up to january 6th. the whole scheme to overturn the election. he described the john eastman plan as murder or suicide if they went forward with it. he talked about resigning if they tried to militarize the election. they had the special counsel of sidney powell. various steps along the way, he was described as a key force. we had extreme versions of what president donald trump was trying to do. he had never spoken to them publicly. even privately, he maintained a certain loyalty to the president.
it was in any kind of noticeable way. he's a lawyer. he's conservative and believing a lot of the causes that donald trump stood for. he was not one of the key figures in the postelection pre- january 6th period. >> i want to ask you a personal question here. as far as doing your job, you have been around a lot of craziness. you have some surreal things that happened around. you read a book about it. i was just reading your story a couple of days ago. this is after the cassidy hutchinson testimony. it must have been surreal to get all of that information in. to put it down on paper, it had to be surreal.
i was never imagining that i would be writing this about a president of the united states for the new york times. >> you have worked with a number of presidents. i have covered about five. in book form, i don't think there's anything quite comparable. richard nixon, in his final days, was potentially unstable and dangerous enough to where the defense secretary had no orders coming from the white house, just to check. they showed the press secretaries. what we are seeing here in the testimony from cassidy hutchinson, and will we have seen from other people who were in the room, we have discovered in reporting for our own book on president donald trump this fall, it's more than any other president we have seen in terms of the voluntarily erratic behavior. we have seen some medicating
qualities as described from people around him. they were afraid of triggering his temper. they were afraid of his outbursts. they were afraid of giving information that he didn't want to have. all of that is important to understand how we got to january 6th in the first place. >> in peter alexander's report, he saw the speech they delivered last night at the ronald reagan presidential library. here is more of what she had to say. >> i'm a conservative republican. i believe deeply in the policies of limited government, low taxes, a strong, national defense. i believe that the family is the center of our community and lives. i believe those are the right policies for our nation. i also know that at this moment, we are confronting a domestic threat that we have never faced before. that is a former president who is attempting to unravel the foundations of the
constitutional republic. he has aided himself by republican leaders, and elected officials, who made themselves willing hostages to this dangerous and irrational man. as the full picture is coming into view with this january 6th committee, it becomes clear that the efforts donald trump oversaw and engaged in, or even more chilling and more threatening than we could have imagined. as we have shown, donald trump, attempted to overturn the presidential election. he attempted to stay in office, and to prevent the peaceful transfer of presidential power. he summoned a mob to washington. he knew they were armed on january 6th. he knew they were angry. he directed the violent mob to march on the capitol. this was in order to delay or prevent completely the counting of electoral votes. he attempted to go there with
them. when the violence was underway, he refused to take action to tell the writers rioters to leave. he said, quote, mike, deserved it. he didn't want to do anything in response to the hang mike pence chance. it's also painful for republicans to accept. i think we all have to recognize and understand what it means to say those words. what does it mean that those things happen? the reality that we face today as republicans, as we think about the choice in front of us, we have to choose. republicans cannot both be loyal to donald trump, and loyal to the constitution. [ applause ] it's an important
concept. it's an important concept, thinking about the young people in this country. it's about the hope that they bring. i will tell you that over the last 18 months or so, since january 6th. i have been incredibly moved by the young people that i have met. they approach me everywhere. at home in wyoming, washington, d.c., and airports, all over the country. i will tell you, especially the young women. young women who seem instinctively to understand the peril of this moment for our democracy. young women who know that it will be up to them to save it. i have been incredibly moved by the young women that i have met, and have come forward to testify in the january 6th committee. [ applause ] some of these are
young women who worked on the trump campaign. some of them worked in the trump white house. some worked in offices on capitol hill. all of them knew immediately that what happened that they must never happen again. america had the chance to meet one of these young women yesterday. that was miss cassidy hutchinson. [ applause ] her superiors, men many years older, and number of them are hiding behind executive privilege, anonymity, and intimidation. her bravery and patriotism yesterday, were awesome to behold. [ applause ] little girls all
across this great nation, are seeing what it really means to love this country. it's about what it really means to be a patriot. i want to speak to every young girl watching tonight. the power is yours. so is the responsibility. our great nation, one individual can make all the difference. each individual must try. there are no bystanders in a constitutional republic. let me also say this to the little girls, and to the young women who were watching tonight. these days, for the most part, men are running the world. it's really not going that well. [ laughter ] >> it's not going that well. >> another line brought down the house. again, ronald reagan, presidential library, that holy ground for republicans.
the biggest applause line that we heard, they said to these dedicated republicans, a group of republicans, the ones in congress cannot serve both donald trump and the constitution of the united states. >> we know this about her. we know that she believes it. she's living every day. she's putting her career on the line. a good chance she's going to lose her job for doing so and telling the truth. the question we are having in that room, it's at the ronald reagan library. huge applause for cassidy hutchinson. her note was in the vote right there. does any of that seem to be larger than the republican party? with her new hearings, know that it's the minority view. it's an obvious one.
the minority view, you choose the country over this man. the larger question, is there any kind of reckoning in the republican party over these january 6th hearings? so much black and white clear evidence of what the president is plotting and attempting to do around the election. he still enjoys big support in the republican party. the republicans are happier, and maybe they are part of the party. >> officeholders, certainly washington, doing anything under the standardbearer. they are recognizing the winds. they understand who has the energy still in the party. they look at what happened this week. they happen this week. it's a certain collapse. it's beginning the erosion
factor. it's aware of the support. they are tired of it. tired of all of this. they recognize that the donald trump candidacy in 2024, they are going to move forward. they are not out of the line. they are trying to be advocated. they are feeling that perhaps there is some fatigue factor. okay, it's going to be about 2020. it's about the united states and the future. it's what we want for this country. will that begin to wear away at the support within the party? it won't happen overnight. it's overtime. there's a factor that was sent in over a period of months and years. ahead of november's midterm elections, new polling shows that major shifts in one of the country's most high-profile senate races, according to the latest survey from quinnipiac university, georgia primary,
raphael warnock, has opened up a 10 point lead over the republican, herschel walker. they show walker, a college football star, and longtime friend of donald trump, leading or neck and neck. that included a previous poll from january. one point, separating the o. it has come under increasing scrutiny from the campaign trail. this includes allegations of domestic violence, made by his ex-wife. he says he is, quote, accountable for. governors in georgia, stacey abrams as well, is challenging brian kemp for the second time. the new poll shows the dead heat. both candidates are in 48% of support. according to the new poll, virtually unchanged from january. what do you make of that? >> a lot to make out of this. they were tied with stacey abrams right now. that race has closed.
right away, they did not deny the credibility of the elections. he defended the elections credibility. president joe biden, won the state of georgia. they counted several times . longtime secretary of state, they gained donald trump's eye. he is in a tight race with stacey abrams. probably a slight favorite. it happened last time. some midterm elections, and it dealt with president joe biden's approval ratings. you have herschel walker, a friend of donald trump. he may be doing it again. it has already cost them two senators. it already cost them a majority of the united dates in 2020. you just look at the early poll. it's fascinating. again, you have the candidate who is being very careful about
what he says. when it comes to the stolen election, versus others who said it was legitimate. peter baker, to your point, you have a forward and backward looking candidate. they are doing far better. you look at dr. oz, and it has an extraordinarily high disapproval rating. you go to another race. you go to another high-profile race, it's in michigan. the state of michigan, they were supposed to be in so much trouble. they were doing this extremely well against whoever is going to be running against the republicans. what's fascinating, the disconnect that we are starting to see in a lot of these races. thapproval ratings. the democratic candidates, they are getting upset.
you look at michigan, especially. president joe biden, went through different incidents reports. they were doing extraordinarily well with that same group. >> that's right. a lot of the democratic candidates, going against the headwinds of the white house. they know that. they understand they are not able to help a great deal. that's with the approval ratings. they had to do it solo. in the senate, it's looking at least competitive for the democrats. they can hang onto it. raphael warnock, and georgia, they are trying to come off of pennsylvania. they were running for re- election. they can only hold the senate, potentially get past right here. they had the 52 votes. they were trying to get some things done. they have some different issues. they would like to get rid of it. obviously, the opposite way.
it comes for republicans and democrats. they were probably going to take over in the fall. that introduces the split. congress, in the next two years, it makes them more complicated for president joe biden. >> peter baker, inc. you so much this morning. the nato summit wraps up in madrid. the alliance is facing new backlash from russia and china. the latest on how those two countries are reacting. president joe biden, said to give remarks any moment now. we will jump in life, and bring those remarks to you as soon as it begins. we are watching it right back. .
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pushing a stroller, and shot her in the head. she was rushed to the hospital in critical condition. she did not make it. the child, believed to be only a few months old, was unharmed. officials are looking for the gunman. mayor eric adams, said that we were going to find this person that was guilty of this horrific crime. we are going to find him and bring him to justice. this, and the subway shooting, i don't know if this was random. my god, what is going on? >> it doesn't sound random. a man in a black hoodie walked up behind a 20-year-old woman pushing an infant in a stroller. frankly, executed her. over the last 12 hours, this story has rocked the city. a woman pushing a stroller, could be executed before the sun went down on a wednesday night. last week, a college basketball star was killed up in harlem. 12-year-old and 11-year-old recently.
like so many in this country, plagued by gun violence. in such an open, horrific way last night. >> absolutely. thanks. perhaps no one knows more about the impact of gun violence than former congresswoman, gabby giffords. just before president joe biden signed into law, the first major done safety legislation in nearly three decades, she sat down with the reporter. >> reporter: what do you hope to accomplish? >> save lives, save lives, save lives. >> reporter: what is your advice to people looking around their own communities? what are they doing to help? >> be a leader, set an example. be passionate. be courageous. be your best. >> reporter: what do you think is required for us to get to a point where there is meaningful legislation change? >> democrats, republicans, everyone. we must fight to stop gun
violence. right now. >> that was part of the 50-50 know your value in forbes. they are well beyond proving their most powerful years are yet to come. this week, the women are fighting for gun reform. joining me, morning reporter, gabby done yellow. this is so deeply personal. >> reporter: good morning. this is a victim of gun violence. shot in the face while she was holding a meeting with her constituents in a parking lot in arizona in 2011. over a dozen others were injured. six people died, including one of her staff members. a nine-year-old girl. they had different speeches. despite the advocacy, they took the fight to the next level. they had permanent and
debilitating injuries. she did not give up. they called new legislation a critical step towards stopping gun violence. >> what's so great, the women that were recovering today, they bring the knowledge and networks to the table. >> yeah. >> reporter: that's what they bring. she is 52, and a founder of mom's demand action. after the tragedy, she started a facebook group with a message that all americans can and should do more to reduce gun violence. it took off. there's a chapter of mom's that had action in all 50 states. >> that's amazing. i know from talking to most democrats, gun control advocates is what they like. they like legislations to go a lot further. a mass shooting is practically everyday. it's an epidemic. he >> exactly. we talked about that before. she grew up in queens.
she had the devastation. guns were brought to her community every day. at 57, she's an activist. a leading violence prevention organization that targets high risk use. i asked her about solutions around the issue, of course she agreed with legislative changes. she also stressed that investing in communities of color is also important. >> reporter: on both sides, we need to find a way , as you just talked about, helping communities heal from all the gun violence. how do you invest in communities so that people can go out and work with those who have the highest potential to shoot somebody? or, even be shot. they are trying to work those people into activities that could lift them up. we are seeing the opportunities and resources that use them through the light. >> thank you so much for bringing that. don't forget, nominations for
the 2020 250/50 u.s. list, it's still open. the women who make it will be honored at the second annual or global women's national day summit. the first summit, remarkable. women from the forms 3030 list, and the global 50 over 50 list. incredible speakers, they had different things in abu dhabi. they were closing events in the desert. they did miss some mentoring. this is across multigenerational mentoring. they were going somewhere else next year. we can't wait for international women's day. europe, middle east, and africa, 50 over 50 lists, we have gone global. go to know your value.com, and
after nearly three decades on the supreme court, a justice will retire today. that clears the way for the first black woman justice. judge jackson. nbc news justice correspondent, pete williams, has more. >> reporter: we are waiting for the release of the left two cases of the term. they have declined on climate change, and they have shutdowns of the donald trump administration. one justice leaves, and another takes his place.
stephen breyer, steps down. he intended to retire. 28 years on the court. he served 14 years and is an appeals court judge in boston. he's the oldest member. he will turn 86 in august. first thing he will do upon retiring, is take part in the swearing in of one of his former clerks, jackson, who will take his place on the bench. she was confirmed in april. the first black woman to serve on the supreme court. she will be one of the most young justices. justice jackson, has dove into some hot ticket items, and a challenge to affirmative actions in college admissions. they had the okay twice before, but they have new doubts of the super majority. there's the question of whether religious freedom gives business owners the right to refuse to serve same-sex weddings, or whether that's illegal discrimination. how much protection federal law provides to minority voters?
they draw political boundaries. justice jackson, has all summer to get ready for those. >> nbc's, pete williams, reporting. we are joined by one of the top economic advisers. hear what they say about the economic issues right now. stay tuned, on morning joe. joe a painful, blistering rash that could interrupt your life for weeks. forget social events and weekend getaways. if you've had chickenpox, the virus that causes shingles is already ie of you. if you're 50 years or older ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles.
welcome back. we have been covering those historic floods around yellowstone national park and that's not the only danger posed to visitors. particularly those who don't follow the rules. nbc news, national correspondent, miguel, right here. >> reporter: even from a distance, they see the agitated tyson charging.
the attack, unfolding this weekend at yellowstone national park. leaving a 34-year-old man with injuries to his arm after he was gored. the massive bison, closing in on two adults and a child. a third man rushes in to help. the bison could weigh up to 2000 pounds, briefly lifting him off the ground before the man and child could run to safety. >> you have seen that on a ranch. you wouldn't walk into the pen and take a photo. if you see a bowl bison in a national park, you should probably not walk up and take a photo photo. you have to respect it. >> it's crazy. >> reporter: the man was taken to a nearby hospital. it was near old faithful, one of the biggest draws of the
park. they freely roamed the park. attacks are rare. they do happen. in 2019, a nine-year-old was plunged through the air. somehow, not seriously injured. just this week, a 25-year-old woman was gored by a bison at yellowstone. park rangers asking the public to stay at least 25 yards away from large animals that could easily outrun humans. 100 yards away from predators like bears. >> never approaching wildlife to take a picture. >> never ever. >> reporter: they are reminding people that these animals are wild. >> is important that the next person has the opportunity to see that wildlife. take appropriate precautions to take yourself right through it. protect the wildlife and other things. >> reporter: this morning, a frightening attack. very real danger lies in yellowstone majestic beauty. >> that was nbc's miguel,
reporting. coming up, president joe biden, wrapping up the nato summit in spain. we will talk about how it's countering russia. straight ahead, on morning joe. e i'm mark and i live in vero beach, florida. my wife and i have three children. ruthann and i like to hike. we eat healthy. we exercise. i noticed i wasn't as sharp as i used to be. my wife introduced me to prevagen and so i said "yeah, i'll try it out." i noticed that i felt sharper, i felt like i was able to respond to things quicker. and i thought, yeah, it works for me. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.
♪♪ welcome back. for many today is the unofficial start of the 4th of july weekend and despite soaring grass prices, a record number of people are expected to hit road for the holiday. and nbc news correspondent sam brock has more. >> reporter: this morning records ready to be broke an on the roads. nearly 90% of americans traveling this holiday weekend going by car. and according to aaa forecast, 42 million people are hitting the road.
edging out last year's total. as you'll find common sites at service plazas. suvs pilling over with suitcase and driving to disney world despite eye popping gas prices. >> how did you make that calculation. >> it was no calculation. it is her birthday so we just like, you know, what we're going to just come. >> perhaps a reflection of family's fed up with pandemic and willing to accept the tradeoff to make their kids smile this summer. the fridays taking their daughters to legoland. >> it is worth the price at the pump. >> absolutely. >> and alternative routes using electric cars for road trips. this mom said she's paying about 80% less in fuel. >> i'm just so glad that i have the vehicle and i see prices. >> reporter: for those braving the roads, some areas expected to see massive spikes in congestion and d.c. beltway
later today. still americans deciding you can't put up a price on holiday fun. >> sam brock reporting there. canceled flights at the airports and expensive gas on the crowds roads could be a tough weekend out there traveling. we're awaiting a news conference from president biden in madrid as he wraps up his time at the nato summit there. we'll bring that to you live just as soon as the president steps up to the lectern. we expect that to happen at any moment now. in the meantime, want to talk about republican legislators planning ways to keep people who live in states where abortions are banned from crossing state lines to get the procedure. the laws are gaining steam among conservative activists as supporters of abortion rights plan ways to counter the reversal of roe v. wade last week. "the washington post" reports that thomas moore society, a conservative legal organization is drafting model legislation
for state lawmakers across the country that will allow private citizens to sue anyone who helps a resident of a state that has banned abortion from terminating a pregnancy outside of that state. the biden justice department has already warned states that it would fight such laws. saying they violate the right to interstate commerce. all kinds of bills could be proposed even before state legislatures reconvene for the regular 2023 legislative session. arkansas state senator jason rap ert, his home state may address the issue in an already planned special session. in a television interview over the weekend, south dakota governor kristi noem left the door open to restricting out of state abortions in her state where a trigger ban took effect as soon as roe was overturned. and while several democratic runs tates have passed laws across state lines, ann thompson
reports there remains confusion for abortion providers and patients. >> reporter: the battle over kentucky's abortion trigger law moving to a courtroom. >> your honor, there is a real dangerous problem here. >> reporter: kentucky, one of 12 states are the future of abortion is now in court, causing confusion for patients >> don't think it could get more confusing. >> reporter: this doctor reeds camelback family planning click, performing abortions until friday. but now they've temly suspended abortions. >> none of us want to get arrested. >> if you provided abortion services, what is at risk. >> i think being arrested, charged with a felony. losing your medical license. >> reporter: there are two abortion laws on arizona's
books. one signed this march which bans abortion after 15 weeks. but does not repeal the second more restrictive law. that one enacted when arizona was just a territory. bans all abortions unless the mother's life is in danger. >> was it overturning roe v. wade, abortion should now be illegal in the state of arizona. >> abortion rights points argue for the older law. >> in effect, does arizona have two laws on abortion. >> arizona does not have two laws on abortion. it has one law that prohibits abortion except to save the life of the mother. it is not confusing. >> reporter: but a county judge blocked that ban in 1973 leaving some to wonder where that law stands. and now the confusion expanding to emergency contraception. a missouri health system stopped providing emergency contraception after that state ban add borgs. st. luke's health system worry they could be in legal jeopardy. they reversed course providing the pills again but saying the
ambiguity continues to krause grave concern. >> sain thompson reporting there. and as promised, president biden has stepped to the lectern in madrid wrapping up the nato summit before he comes home. >> we talked about the g-7 taking on additional responsibilities. before the war started, i told putin that if he invaded ukraine, nato would not only get stronger but get more united. and we would see democracies the world stand up and oppose his aggression and defend the rules based order and that is exactly what we're seeing today. this summit was about strengthening our alliance, leading the challenges of our world today and the threats we'll face in the future. but last time nato drafted a new mission statement was 12 years ago. at that time, it characterized russia as a partner and it
didn't even mention china. the world has changed. changed a great deal since then. and nato is changing as well. at this summit, we rallied our alliances to meet both the direct threats that russia poses europe and the systemic challenges that china poses to a rules based world order. and we've invited two new members to join nato. it was a historic act. finland and sweden. two countries with a long tradition of neutrality and choosing to join nato. some of the american press will remember when i got a phone call from the leader of finland saying could he come and see me and came the next day and said, will you support my joining -- my country joining nato. we got on the telephone and he suggested we call the leader of switzerland, my goodness, i'm getting really anxious here about expanding nato.
no, sweden. and what happened was, we got on the phone and she asked if she could come the next day, to want to talk about joining nato. allies across the board are stepping up, increasing defense spending, a majority of them are on track for the first time to exceed our 2% of gdp commitment that they make. they agreed to spend 2% of the gdp on defense. look, for example, germany, germany is committed to spending 2% going forward and announced a special fund for its military of more than $100 billion. slovakia, the czech republic and the netherlands have announced they will meet their 2% commitments. poland, romania, astonia and latvia and lithu yania are going as high as 3%. to bolster our alliances across
all domains. land, air, sea, cyber and space. we reaffirmed that our article 5 commitment is sacred and that an attack on one is an attack on all and we'll defend every inch of nato territory. every inch of nato territory. for our part, the united states is doing exactly what i said we could do if putin invaded and enhanced or forced posture in europe. we'll station more ships in near in spain. we'retationing more air defense in italy and germany. more f-35s in the united kingdom and to strengthen our eastern flank, now headquarters for the army fifth corp in poland. in addition, an additional brigade combat team positioned in romania. and additional rotational deployments in the baltic countries. things are changing. so we're adapting to the world as we have it