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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  July 7, 2022 3:00am-6:00am PDT

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to announce his resignation as conservative party leader. it comes amid a major revolt from his party after a series of scandals. johnson essentially forced out as dozens of members of his government, from cabinet level down, resigned over the past two days. we'll have the very latest. meanwhile, here at home, the seventh victim in the fourth of july highland park massacre has been identified. the suspect in the case is ordered held without bond, as prosecutors talk about his confession. what they're saying about plans about a second attack. troubling developments from uvalde, texas. officers missed multiple opportunities to take out the gunman, including before he even entered the school. >> unbelievable. plus, nbc news confirms former trump white house counsel
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pat cipollone will sit down for a deposition with the january 6th committee tomorrow. will he help connect the dots? and the georgia prosecutor makes it clear if her investigation uncovers crimes committed by former president trump, he will be held accountable. we'll have her exclusive interview with nbc news. plus, two former fbi directors spurned by trump get swept up in highly invasive and rare tax audits that are supposed to be random. >> targeted? >> the odds on that daily double pretty extraordinary, really, for -- >> that's a coincidence. >> yeah, it was a special audit that very few americans got. but somehow, somehow, right after donald trump was upset with james comey and mccabe, both of them hit the daily
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double, the odds, pretty extraordinary. we'll be talking to michael schmidt who broke that story, willie. >> that's a tough exacta, even for the two of us. i think the odds are something like 1 in 20,000, to be audited that way. purely by coincidence, the two of them, who incurred donald trump's wrath, of course, and eventually both were fired, were audited. we have new details, as you said, from michael schmidt in a minute. >> wow, that is incredible. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, july 7th. along with joe, willie, and me, we have white house bureau chief at "politico" and the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. a host of news to get to. let's start with reports that british prime minister british johnson may resign today. his government is on the brink of collapse after a series of scandals led to insurmountable political challenges. the boisterous prime minister couldn't overcome. he rose to power on the crest of
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a populist wave that led to brexit's passing, donald trump's victory, and the rise of right-wing populous figures across europe. with johnson's collapse, trump's post-election woes are only accelerating by the day. and with marine le pen's crushing defeat in france, the rise of right-wing populism in the west may soon be limited to the confines of cable news hosts and a dwindling number of dim-witted represents in congress. we'll talk about that coming up. first, let's go live right there to 10 downing street and nbc news senior digital reporter alexander smith. alex, what more can you tell us? >> reporter: well, we're still waiting, quite frankly. the press cordon across the street from 10 downing street is starting to pack up now. obviously, the reports are widespread that boris johnson does plan to resign today.
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some reports saying it could come in an hour's time, noon local time. it is unconfirmed. we know the spokesperson has said, so far, that the prime minister is expected to make a speech today, so that is ominous in and of itself. as you say, the last few days, few weeks, few months in british politics have been an extraordinarily wild ride. the resignations have just been coming and coming today. perhaps most extraordinary among the statements, the finance minister who was just appointed yesterday after the previous finance minister resigned, he now is calling for the prime minister to go. until now, boris johnson has been clinging on with his fingernails, in defiance of seemingly most of his party. it seems that today, he may have finally realized that the game is up.
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>> alex, it became unsustainable. last check this morning, 53 resignations from his cabinet. there isn't a functioning government at that point. can you walk us through a little bit, alex, what brought us to this day? it wasn't just the late resignations from cabinet officials, of why boris johnson may be compelled to step outside the famous black door behind you and resign in a short time from now. >> reporter: it's an extraordinary story. less than three years ago, december 2019, boris johnson secured a historic election victory, swept to a landslide in the house of parliament and, you know, he was really known as a titanic figure within the conservative party. someone who had delivered brexit. someone who had secured a brexit deal with the european union, where other people failed. there were predictions he may go on to rule for 10, 15 years, as this kind of talismanic figure, this force of personality. really, it is incredible how different today's situation is
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from those times, less than three years ago. and we got here by essentially six months of rolling scandal. now, you mentioned at the start that the latest allegations are that boris johnson knew about sexual assault allegations against his deputy chief when he appointed him and ignored the warnings about the person. that is really just the straw that broke the camel's back. questions over who paid for the lavish redecoration of the prime minister's residence. the one viewers may be most particular with, partygate, seeing boris johnson be the first sitting prime minister in the uk to be essentially accused and charged with committing a crime by the police. he stood up in parliament and assured fellow lawmakers that no parties happened during covid lockdowns while the rest of the country was staying inside, you know, keeping their distance.
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he stood in parliament, assured fellow lawmakers no parties happened, and it turned out he was at some of the parties himself. in terms of his credibility, this really is not a dispute about policy. it's not about what the government wants to do in the rest of the country. it is really about boris johnson's character, who he is as a man. it's a through line running through his political career but before that. opinion polls show most of the counties don't trust him, and the party is coming around to that idea, as well. >> alex, i wanted to ask you about that. the history of lying. we, of course, in america aren't quite as familiar with all the lies. we have our own former liar-in-chief to follow those lies daily. but boris johnson, going back to 1988, sacked by the "times" for lying, making up quotes. he wrote for the "telegraph," caught lying and exaggerating in
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one column after another. of course, one lie after another after he became prime minister. lied about the covid parties. but brits knew that. the conservative party knew that, and they accepted him. they understood that's just who he was. he lied, and they wanted him in power after brexit. i guess the question is, why are they now finally saying enough, we're sick and tired of his lies? >> reporter: i think you're absolutely right. i think that few people were under any illusions about who boris johnson is and was when he was elected mayor of london, when he was elected as prime minister in 2019. but i think the bargain that lots of people made was they were to accept those foibles, to put it mildly, because of the force of personality that boris johnson is. he is really seen, or was seen by many, at least, as a unique figure who sort of cut through to the mainstream and really
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broke out of the political bubble into the mainstream. he was a household name when mayor of london. he'd do goofy things in public. you probably remember him halfway up a zip wire waving union flags. but people were always prepared to accept he had flaws in his character because he was able to rally people around him, like few other politicians could. now, the bargain has tipped too far the other way, and people are starting to say, actually, that's a price that too much, you know, to pay, essentially, and lies are a very charged word in british politics. people are reluctant to use that word, but we can say at the very least that boris johnson has a record of saying things that either at the time were demonstrably false or turned out not to be true. so that's where we are today. you know, it is really a measure of just how that thinking has changed within the conservative party, that they are no longer prepared to accept that bargain. they really see boris johnson as more of an electoral liability
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than an electoral asset. for the conservative party, which has a ruthless history of gaining and hanging on to power, they are the party of power in post-war british politics, that is the key thing here. boris johnson is going to cost them their seat in the next election, and that's something they're not prepared to accept. >> nbc's alexander smith, great job. thank you so much. joe, so interesting. so many potential parallels and trends going on here. >> there are a lot. i will say, and willie will remember, when i tried to do the zip wire across the -- >> it broke. >> -- rockefeller plaza ice skating rink, just like boris johnson, i got stuck there. weirdly, too, i had a helmet on and was waving union jacks. didn't make sense to any of us. >> we were worried about you, that time in your life. it was a dark period for you. >> it was the aut-7, aut-8, i don't remember exactly. i'd like to forget about it.
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willie, it is interesting. we keep hearing, and we've heard about the rise of the authoritarians and western democracy on the skids. we've heard about the rise of the right-wing populist. it is going to overtake western democracy. we saw boris johnson. we saw it with brexit. we saw it with donald trump. there is, without a doubt, a growing sense of exhaustion. boris johnson getting the boot from his own party suggests that it's not just happening here. because we're starting to hear more and more about it with donald trump. it's not just happening in france, where the french people said, "yeah, we don't like macron but, man, we're not voting for the crazy woman." and we're seeing it really across now great britain and across a lot of europe, that it looks like the age of the right-wing populist, with
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johnson's departure, may be coming to a short, short end. it was a false spring but, wow, a spring with some very, very bad hair. >> it really is. you look at this collage of photos -- >> across the pond. >> -- and never really arrived at a haircut that made anybody happy. >> he and donald trump. there's just something about these right-wing populists. i mean, good lord. >> you know what is interesting to note about this, if boris johnson, the prime minister, does, in fact, resign today, is that his own party is showing that there is accountability. there are standards of ethics and character. it feels like here in the united states, we don't see that, obviously, among republicans with donald trump, but a party that's willing to say to someone that they thought was the vessel for the things they wanted, to get brexit done, as he promised during his campaign, they're saying, there is a line you can't cross. we're going to resign and run you out of office. that doesn't happen here. maybe that will change.
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we haven't seen it yet among republicans, though. to your larger point about authoritarians, we'll see if donald trump runs for president again, we'll learn whether the tide has really been turned back, not just in europe but here in the united states. >> well, we'll also see if our long-held belief, that no man is above the law, is once again skirted and donald trump is above the law. more investigations going on. more shocking revelations coming out of january 6th. an investigation in georgia where he's caught on tape trying to rig an election there. we'll see whether that's the case, too. jonathan lemire, though, donald trump is without shame. he refused to leave, even though about 80 million voters told him, "get out of the white house." tried to destroy our constitution. tried to destroy our tradition of peaceful transfers. and my question is, there's just
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something -- i whether wonder boris johnson will be without shame, also. i hear he is talking about stepping down, but there's something in me that says he may not give up quite so easily. >> exactly. >> well, certainly, he has tried to cling to power to this point in the face of allegations and calls for his resignation for quite some time. it was a month back, he faced a vote of no confidence, which he survived, barely, and at the time thought -- was then insulated by challenges to power. he can't face another one of those for a year. the most recent scandal is accusations that one of his appointees had exhibited actions of sexual misconduct at one of these parties that the prime minister claimed he never had and never attended, and he did both of those. it does seem like, though, his party, the conservatives, are saying to him, "hey, enough is enough." maybe some is moral high ground, but it is also looking at the
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next election. they thought johnson would cost them seats. that might be, if the republicans get there with trump, that's probably going to be the same motive. it's not going to be they're going to suddenly condemn donald trump and his behavior, but rather they're afraid he'll cost them seats. i know some republicans already, right now, are worried if trump were to suddenly announce his re-election bid for 2024 now, it could damage their chances this coming midterms. they're asking him not to do that. briefly, lastly on johnson, the white house no official response yet, of course. certainly, president biden and boris johnson, not exactly close personally. despite that chummy photograph. boris johnson, frankly, a tour de force last week at a pair of summits where he was dishevelled, i'm putting it mildly, calling out g-7, ride for life, which i think they have been a last hoorah or cry for help. >> oh, my gosh. >> the biggest concern for the white house is does his replacement, does this impact at
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all the effort to back up ukraine. they don't think so. [ laughter ] there is a great series of photographs of boris johnson losing articles of clothing as the summit in germany went along. his jacket was gone, shirt was untucked, and asked fellow leaders if in an intimidating message to putin, they should remove their shirts and show their pecks. >> oh, my gosh. >> for those who haven't followed boris johnson's storied career, this is a man who, in his first run for parliament, promised everybody, promised men in an audience -- >> no, just don't say it. >> i don't know if we can quote it this early. well, i better not say it. anyway, it had something to do with bmws, their wives. >> it was horrible. >> and money in their pocket. it's the sort of thing, well, i don't know, i don't know, it's the sort of thing you wouldn't say in northwest florida if you wanted to get elected, back in
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my day. >> you described this dishevelled look, and jake sherman comes to mind, for some reason. >> wow. >> totally. >> exactly. >> speaking of -- >> did you see "way too early"? >> we'll get to the news in a second, but lemire's hair, looking pretty good. >> i was going to say. >> you know what, if warren zee von would say it, the hair is perfect. >> it is, actually. it's adorable. >> willie -- >> jake, on the other hand. >> come on, what is he wearing? khakis, yeah, right. >> he set the alarm but didn't leave himself enough time to get dressed, apparently. >> he did get up early. he rolled on bed and turned on the zoom. that's what it looked like. >> geez. >> i've seen him wear the -- >> nobody wants to see that. >> -- chocolate brown polyester
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jacket. >> you have to watch "way too early" to watch this. it was something. >> jake sherman's last appearance on "way too early." he won't be answering that call again. >> this was love. >> tough love. >> jake, pretend you care how you look. that's all we're saying. >> wow. >> just pretend. >> like you always say, joe -- >> it's a tv show. you're not on radio. >> g-7, ride for life. i think it's the same thing vin diesel said in "fast and the furious." >> one of the lesser sequels. we'll get back to the uk, back to boris downing in a few moments. formal resignation, we will see. we want to turn to the investigation of the attack on our capitol. the missing link in the house january 6th investigation has agreed to speak to the committee. after subpoenaed last week, pat cipollone, nbc news can confirm,
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will sit down with lawmakers for a transcribed interview behind closed doors. cipollone, who was in the west wing during the insurrection, has been mentioned by several other witnesses during the house hearings. according to them, he repeatedly pushed back against the white house efforts to overturn the 2020 election results and often voiced his concerns directly to trump himself. but until now, cipollone has refused to cooperate with the house investigation, citing attorney-client and executive privilege. joining us now, "new york times" congressional reporter, luke broadwater. good morning. obviously, pat sip lcipollone's came up a lot in the jarring testimony from cassidy hutchinson last week. seems he had to now step forward, at least the committee needed to hear what he had to say to fill in some of the blanks and at least to corroborate some of what he said. what does it mean to be a transcribed interview? will we see him? what are we going to see next week? >> yes, this is a very important development for the committee.
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pat cipollone is an extremely key figure who is there for several of the major moments in this plot to overturn the election. and he may know things we don't even know about yet, that he could reveal to them tomorrow during this interview. i do expect pat cipollone's testimony to be played next week at some of the hearings. there was conversations about whether he should testify live in front of the public. liz cheney called for that. but the committee does like to know exactly what a person is going to say before they go up there. they don't want to turn one of these televised hearings into, you know, a food fight. they like to know exactly what a person is going to say before they decide to put them out there. so i think we'll see pat cipollone video clips but not necessarily pat cipollone sitting at the witness stand. >> and the privilege, privilege would be, would it not, from your understanding, legal recommendations he made to the
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president, anything touching on his representation of the president, where he, the president, would have attorney-client privilege, where they're just talking to each other. so i would guess the comments that he made to cassidy hutchinson, which would not be privileged -- >> yes, those are part of the negotiations. everyone concedes that pat cipollone does have attorney-client privilege with donald trump. he has sort of resisted coming forward and talking about some of those things. so i don't think we'll see him necessarily talk about direct conversations with donald trump, but that doesn't mean he can't talk about lots of other material. we heard cassidy hutchinson talk about how pat cipollone and mark meadows were going back and forth into the oval office to try to get donald trump to call off the mob. can he talk about the things he said to cassidy? can he talk about the things he said to mark meadows?
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you know, we know he was there for meetings about seizing voting machines. he was there when bill barr offered his resignation. he was there when they had draft letters to -- false draft letters from the justice department. and for when he shot down plans from members of congress, from john eastman to put forward false slates of electors. there's so many things that pat cipollone knows. i think his testimony could be absolutely crucial for this committee. and he was probably the biggest witness left that they could get, that they hadn't yet so, you know, i expect this interview to be very important tomorrow. >> hey, jonathan lemire. aides to the former president concerned, the white house counsel now cooperating at least to an extent. give us a sense, the committee had these hearings tightly scripted, each hitting a theme, building toward a narrative. the one they announced tuesday is the presence of some of the
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hate groups, the proud boys, the three percenters, et cetera. wouldn't seem that pat cipollone's testimony would fit in there. what is your anticipation of when we'll hear from the counsel, what themes they'll hit? >> i suspect they'll use pat cipollone's testimony during the final hearing, which we expect to be about what they call the 187 minutes of an action. that's those three hours from roughly 1:00 past 4:00, where donald trump does nothing as the mob is storming the capitol. we've heard some testimony already that he was agreeing with the mob, that he was endorsing the chants of "hang mike pence." we do expect sarah matthews' testimony, former deputy press secretary, to be used during that time. so i think we'll hear a lot from him then. but depending on what pat cipollone says on video, which committee has been known to throw out the playbook before, throw out the plan.
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if he tells them something they didn't anticipate or found truly explosive, i think we could potentially see that at any time. >> "new york times" congressional reporter luke broadwater, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you, luke. >> we greatly appreciate it. and unlike certain punch bowl reporters, he got dressed for the hit. >> looks good. >> he does. again, the bar is low. i mean, look at me. but still, lemire, this is your beat, obviously. it's been your beat for a very long time. and you have a book coming out about it. i'm curious, what do you expect to hear from pat cipollone, and what holes do you think are the most important ones in the timeline that he could fill in? >> "the big lie" out july 26th, thanks for the plug, joe. >> i knew you'd say that. you have to be subtle. i say you have a book coming out. >> "big lie" out in july.
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>> you have to start talking. mika will go, oh, by the way -- >> we'll coordinate that better the next time. >> yeah. >> yeah, cipollone is someone who is going to anticipate to excerpt attorney-client privilege with some of the conversations with the former president, as luke said. where he will be really important is corroborating the testimony we've already heard from cassidy hutchinson but others. and we know from previous reporting that he, on january 6th, was warning anyone in earshot about how bad things were going and how he felt that there could be criminal liability that very day. he expressed at one point to an aide that he thought donald trump could face some sort of charge on january 6th. now, that, of course, didn't come to be. we know it is very complicated and potentially not possible to charge a sitting president. but he is keenly aware of the illegality, potential illegality of what was happening there, and he is going to be someone the committee aides tell us they
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anticipate painting in stark detail. that donald trump knew exactly what was going on. he knew that it was wrong. >> wow. >> and this could be a real problem for the former president, as department of justice carefully watches these hearings. >> it is going to be fascinating watching the hearings. >> all right. >> i suspect doj is going to be watching, too. willie, just one side note. i just want to thank you, and mika wants to thank you, too, for taking this sandwich boards off of lemire as he was walking in, that said "the big lie" out in july. >> that was nice. you're a good friends. >> the sandwich boards would have eclipsed that beautiful tie of his. thank you for doing that. >> and it didn't work great because it was 3:00 in the morning. not a lot of people on the streets, but he was trying anyway. >> times square again? >> yeah. >> "big lie" out in july. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll be keeping an eye on -- you guys are so punchy. is it friday? it's not. >> they cuffed him. they put a bag over his head. >> you have to wear something under the sandwich board. that was the problem. >> note taken. >> oh, my god.
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we'll be keeping an eye on london and the reported resignation that is coming from british prime minister boris johnson. meanwhile, back at home, we'll look at the limits of red flag laws in the aftermath of the highland park shooting. plus, florida governor ron desantis is a strong contender for the gop presidential nomination in 2024, but he could face a challenge from another republican governor who is reportedly eyeing the white house. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. e white house.
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you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.
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welcome back to "morning joe." 31 past the hour. turning back to news at home, prosecutors in illinois say the highland park suspect confessed
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to the july 4th massacre. the 21-year-old was in court, ordered held without bail. he acknowledged climbing a fire escape staircase to the rooftop of a downtown building before shooting into the crowd, killing seven and injuring dozens more. we're told he emptied at least one 30-round magazine and reloaded twice. as he ran from the scene, officials say he dropped and left the ar the ar-style semiautomatic rifle used in the attack. it was later recovered by investigators and traced back to the defendant. after escaping from highland park, officials say, he then drove 140 miles to madison, wisconsin, where he considered attacking a second july 4th event. this is the gun officials say he carried with him to madison, along with about 60 rounds of
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ammo. it was found in the car after he was arrested. >> do you believe his plan was to go to highland park and then madison all along or -- >> we don't have information to suggest he planned on driving to madison initially to commit another attack. we do believe he was driving around following the first attack and saw the celebration. >> when he got to madison, did something deter him from attacking, or did he appear to make a decision himself to not attack? >> indications are that he hadn't put enough thought and research into it. >> we now know the identity of the seventh victim of the highland park mass shooting. 68-year-old eduardo uvaldo. he'd been on life support since he attended the parade with his wife and grandson, both wounded. joining us from illinois, dasha
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burns with the latest. how are people coping? what is the latest there? >> reporter: good morning. this is a community where people told me they always, always felt safe. now, they say that that sense of safety, the sense of comfort here has been ripped away from them. look, when the cameras go away, when the caution tape comes down, when that street behind me gets opened up again, people have to walk that street where this tragedy happened. they're going to be processing this for a long time. especially some of the youngest people who were at this parade. you know, this is a place where kids were so excited to come. they'd get candy. they would get prizes. they were excited to see the floats go by. i spoke with two little girls, 9-year-old lily and 11-year-old sydney. they wanted to do this interview, mika, because they wanted other kids to know that it's okay to be scared. that it's okay to talk about your feelings. take a listen to some of what
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they told me. >> scared of maybe some louder noises, like when there was fireworks, that scared me. >> i'm still scared of, like, big noises, so police sirens and stuff. >> i probably am not going to go to any more parades. >> i feel scared at now parades, thinking about this would happen again. >> reporter: mika, they told me that their dad grabbed them screaming, run!" they had to hide inside a local business. they say that they're still getting stomachaches at night. they're having a hard time sleeping. you heard them say there, they don't want to go to a parade ever again. these are the kinds of stories that we're hearing over and over and over again. imagine being a parent, having to help your child cope with something like this, a tragedy you went through with them. it is just unbelievable to hear
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these stories, mika. >> and how do explain it. nbc's dasha burns, thank you so much. we appreciate it. coming up, there's talk of a southern governor making a run for president, but it's not the one you might be thinking of. georgia republican glenn youngkin may be testing the waters, bringing something to the race that governor ron desantis does not. how he could bring suburban voters back into the gop, next on "morning joe." n voters back into the gop, next
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on "morning joe.
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together, together, we will change the trajectory of this commonwealth. and, friends, we are going to
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start that transformation on day one. there is no time to waste. this is the spirit of virginia coming together like never before. the spirit of washington and jefferson and madison and monroe and patrick henry. virginians standing up and taking our commonwealth back! >> joe, that's, obviously, virginia governor glenn youngkin in november of last year, after winning the state's gubernatorial race. what do you think about that? glenn youngkin overall as a candidate. >> you know, i have to say -- >> for president? >> -- he is a more traditional republican than what we've seen over the past five, six years. he doesn't go around, i don't think, carrying ar-15s. >> that's good. >> he tries to avoid looking too
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extreme. the national press was focused on his talks about crt and keeping it out of schools. but, actually, on the grassroots level, people were paying closer attention to his opponent, saying, basically, parents need to mind their own business when it comes to the teaching of their children in school. that was obviously a gaffe that really hurt terry mccullough. he was calling for cuts to taxes as inflation was growing. there may be a path forward for youngkin if donald trump continues to take on water, as he has been doing with the january 6th hearings, as we're seeing in georgia. but also, if the questions linger about ron desantis.
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you know, ron desantis who has been basically called the great white hope by so many in the trump faction, you know, the guy polls even with kamala harris, despite the fact he's been called the next big thing by the national media on the left and the right for the past year, as trump's successor. it'll be interesting to see if there is a pathway for youngkin. i suspect, despite the fact he's not a fire breather in the vein of desantis and trump, i suspect if those two fall, he's next in line. >> joining us now, senior political correspondent for the "washington examiner," david drucker. his latest article is entitled "gop governor glenn youngkin expands political operations as 2024 speculation grows." so is he thinking about it, david? >> he's thinking about it. you know, what he's trying to do over the next several months is
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see how he likes the national scene. you know, a lot of people will say that he has only been governor less than a year. in a normal political environment, we'd say, who bothers with this after they've only been governor a year? why don't you finish a term, take your time, and then see what's going to happen in terms of any presidential ambitions you have. he only has one term to serve as governor. he can serve multiple terms but not consecutively. his options are, do nothing after the first four years are up, wait for 2029 to run for governor of virginia again, wait for 2028 to run for president, and we have learned over the past ten years or so that timing is everything. strike when you're hot. voters are not as interested in an expansive political resume the way they might have been in decades past. chris christie, many people feel, missed his moment in 2012. barack obama, the former president, clearly did not miss his moment in 2008. just four years after bursting onto the national scene with the democratic convention speech.
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so i don't think there is anything in the timing that's wrong here. i think part of it is, number one, as youngkin fans across the country to stump for republicans on the 2022 ballot, does he really take to it the way he took to the campaign trail in virginia? does he like it? does he want to do it? if he wants to do it, he can cede his campaign with tens of millions of his own money. the second thing is, and it is interesting, joe and mika, a lot of youngkin supporters believe his best path to the presidency through a republican primary is a republican primary in which trump runs. the thinking goes here, trump will box out anybody else the that wants to be like him, a ron desantis, a mike pompeo, anybody else. then youngkin gets a very fresh contrast and is the new, fresh face leader option for republicans as they pick their next presidential nominee. in a race without donald trump, they can have a trump-like kand
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candidate and fresh face all in one, more difficult for the republican governor. >> some made youngkin out to be donald trump in a fleece vest, but to voters, he was mitt romney, in their eyes. >> mitt romney who is better on the stump, too. >> sure, yeah. to your second point, is there really room in a primary for glenn youngkin, anybody who is not donald trump, if donald trump wants to, in fact, run? is that a spoiler campaign? does it get a handful of votes in the suburbs? isn't donald trump at the driver's seat of this party if he wants it? >> donald trump is always going to be in the driver's seat at the outset if he wants it. he has the name id and money own money. he was president. when you've done the job, that is a big hurdle. we haven't seen a campaign like this before, but we've seen when
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you're running for a second term. you're automatically presidential because you've been president. but there are a lot of republicans that are going to run anyway. republicans that have worked for donald trump, not worked for donald trump. not every candidate wants to be in their late 70s when they run for president or possibly become president. so you have republicans in their late 50s to 60s, early 70s by the time the campaign starts that are not simply going to wait around for 2028 or 2032. they'll look at an open seat and give it a shot now. though trump remains very strong with republican voters, a lot of the struggles he's had in the key primaries where he has endorsed candidates who have lost, have made republicans who want to take his place think it is worth giving it a shot. then you ask the question, could youngkin compete with trump? we don't know.
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he could fall on his face. when you have democrats coming after you, instead of the media, it is a different ball game. he presents as a contrast. a throwback to a 1980s, 1990s style, sunny conservative who is still very conseconservative. if you look at his recor, they can accuse him as being a centrist, but he is not one. that's why people who like him believe he could be a perfect contrast for trump. without trump in the race, you're looking at a number of candidates that we've discussed who would automatically be the fresh face but also provide that sort of populist pugilism that so many republican primary voters like with trump. >> david, if the former president decides not to run, we'll have an extraordinarily crowded gop field. but let's get you to put on your forecasting hat. let's say trump does run. you're really plugged in with
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the gop. which republican contenders do you think would launch their own campaign anyway? >> i covered a lot of this in "in trump's shadow" and talked to republicans about this. some of this is more obvious than it was when trump left office. i think it is clear former vice president mike pence is gearing up to run regardless of what trump does. it is very clear that mike pompeo, the former secretary of state, is gearing up to run no matter what trump does. there are people around ron desantis who believe that he will run, even with trump in the race. i'm less convinced of that. i know arkansas senator tom cotton really wants to run in 2024. i think he's on that sort of trump bubble. if trump runs, he is young enough to wait it out a while. i think you have to look at florida senator rick scott, chairman of the national senatorial committee. someone who may run if trump
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runs. then there will be some outliers there that we don't predict. but i think what is interesting here, just about every name i mentioned, none of them would be considered -- and i guess i should not leave out former new jersey governor chris christie, who ran in 2016, who is clearly signaling he plans to run and take it straight to trump. even with him in the mix here, as critical as he has been of trump since january 6th, 2021, none of the republicans in this group you would consider anti-trump or have particular an animosity from a policy perspective or from the outset. pence is in his own category because of what happened with their relationship. none of them are, quote, unquote, never trumpest or centrists. they're all eyeing the white house. a lot of them look at what trump did in 2016 and saying, why do i have to automatically conclude i can not win or should not run?
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>> david, let's, finally, as we talk about the calculations for 2020, let's talk about donald trump himself. this is a guy who thought he had a way to win in 2016. he was right. if you talked to chris christie and others around him in the spring of 2020, he knew he was in big trouble, knew he was likely going to lose, so he started concocting the big lie about the election being stolen. so he could prepare for the loss. you talk to republicans close to trump, you talk to republicans pretty high up in the party, and they're all saying the same thing. donald trump has done nothing to win back the voters he lost from 2016 to 2020. he's done nothing to win back the voters in the suburbs of atlanta. he's done nothing since the election to win back voters that he lost in the suburbs of philly. in fact, he's become more
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extreme and boiled his message down even more. he's limited his appeal even more. so my question to you is, studying trump the way you've studied trump, and, you know, knowing trump the way i have known trump in the past, i mean, isn't this a guy who understands that if he runs again, he can't win. we got a hint of that when we got the reporting of him going crazy when he found out roe was going to be overturned. he understood the reality, that those suburban women that fled in 2020 will be even further away in 2024. >> look, i think you raise a good point, in that trump was able, in 2016, to put together a coalition of traditional republicans and then voters that had not typically voted for anybody, right? so he expanded the republican
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party's voting base. even though he ran into trouble in 2020, if you look at the turnout that he inspired for republican candidates down ballot, you can't completely say that his candidacy was a bust for the party. i think that's why they've had such a hard time getting over him or trying to shed him. because when you look at gaining 15 seats in the house in 2016 -- in 2020, a lot of that was turnout inspired by trump. trump's numbers with non-white voters actually improved in 2020. so then the question is, how does trump look at this? i think trump -- and, joe, look, you know this. the man had four bankruptcies. he keeps coming back, right? some people have a little more shame about running into trouble like that. he went through four bankruptcies and then was on television as the greatest businessman ever with a, you know, decently rated show.
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that's because trump is either good at compartmentalizing or does not care. does he look at this and say he cannot win? i don't know he necessarily looks at it that way. he looks at an incumbent president who currently isn't doing too great in the polls. you know, then, naturally, you're going to have some buyer's remorse amongst some republican voters who voted for biden because they were exhausted with trump, but maybe now they're looking at inflation and other matters and saying, "gee, well, maybe his mean tweets weren't so bad." and trump will selectively look at things that he wants to look at. you know, the polls that show him ahead he promotes, right? the polls that show him losing, well, those are fake news and manipulated by people like you and me because we don't like him. so i don't think it is 50/50 he is going to run, but i do think that trump doesn't necessarily took at this and say, "i have no hope." you know, all it take it is a little hope and a little desire and somebody gives it a shot. >> mika, in 2020, republican
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candidates did well. donald trump underperformed them. >> to be remembered, yeah. >> in state after state after state, underperformed republicans down ballot. david drucker, thank you so much. >> thank you, david. >> greatly appreciate it. still ahead, a coincidental audit? could it be coincidence? >> i don't think so. >> these two guys would be -- like, have an in-depth, random audit. >> for one person, as willie said, it is 1 in 20,000, 1 in 30,000 chance. you then stack one of those 1 in 30,000 chances on top of another 1 in 30,000 chances, i'm not good at math, but it is pretty long odds. >> the irs took an extensive look at the records of two men who were frequent targets of former president trump. we'll talk to the reporter behind that story next on "morning joe."
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behind that story next on "morning joe."
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it is the top of the hour, and we're following breaking news from the united kingdom, where british prime minister boris johnson is expected to announce his resignation as conservative party leader. it comes amid a major revolt within the party after a series of scandals. we'll be watching 10 downing street. if he comes out, we'll take it live. plus, an irs audit that targets only about 1 in 30,000 taxpayers, but believe it or not, coincidentally, two fbi directors spurned by donald trump got caught up in the audit that's supposed to be oh, so random. >> 1 in 30,000 for mccabe. 1 in 30,000 for comey. >> what are the chances, willie? >> you stack those two together, willie, i'm not good in math, but those are high numbers. >> yeah, long odds.
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mike schmidt is here in a minute with the details of how exactly that happened, why they were targeted. remember, both of those men were fired by donald trump, then, sun subsequently, it looks like, had their taxes combed through. >> wow. >> seems like a power might have been abused. maybe it is random. maybe it's a massive -- >> i don't think so. >> -- coincidence. we have jonathan lemire with us still. i don't know if the sandwich boards were taken away. >> mara gay, member of the "new york times" editorial board is here, as well as professor of history at tulane history, walter isaacson. >> walter is a big thinker, i want to ask the big question of the day. walter, we've been hearing that, you know -- well, i've actually been hearing it since seventh grade, that the united states is in decline. western democracy is in decline. we're going the way of the romans. blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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japan is going to take us over. the soviets are going to take us over. i'm so bored with the usa. i'm bored, myself, with the collapse of western democracy narrative i've been hearing my entire life. so we heard that authoritarians were on the rise. we heard that right-wing populists were going to destroy western democracy. we have trump on the run. le pen got crushed. in italy, right-wing populists who were supposed to seize power crushed politically. here, you have boris johnson, the guy that lied his way through life, lied his way through brexit, finally, like donald trump, i believe, finally having to pay for all the lies he told and all the things he did in and out of office.
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>> yeah, you know, einstein was once asked, when the mccarthy era was coming in the 1950s, he said to his son, "i've seen this before. i've seen it happen when the nazis took over germany, then when the communists took over in europe. and it is happening here in america." dwight eisenhower, edward r. murrow, a lot of people helped write things in america, joseph mccarthy got kicked off the stage. einstein said, "you know, democracy, it has an intergyroscope. when you think it's going to tip over, it rights itself." now, i'm not sure he is always right, i don't think it automatically does it, i think we have to do that tipping. you know, it doesn't tip itself. but you see that tipping starting to happen. it was just amazing watching it in britain. i think more than 50 ministers and people in the government all resigning. if you follow twitter, you have to follow barry the cat, who for
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seven years has been the cat at 10 downing street. it is a fake account, but it had the cat coming out to the podium and saying it's either him or me. and i do think that, with a bit of humor and a bit of strong will, which we've not fully seen in the united states. we haven't seen people standing in the republican party, standing up to trump the way they have to boris johnson, but you're starting to see it. certainly, people like liz cheney can give us hope. >> well, you know, the johnson era, the curtain may be coming down on the johnson era, and, willie geist, i didn't even know about the barry the cat twitter account. >> it is a big deal, joe. >> i got through the '70s without buying a pet rock or a leisure suit. >> barry the cat! >> willie, you bring up a good point. conservative members of parliament stood up to the lies
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there. in the united states, let's see, we have liz cheney, we have adam kinzinger, we have mitt romney, and that's it. so a big change. i mean, a big difference between conservatives in britain and conservatives in america. >> yeah. think of the difference, the stark difference in the offenses that were committed here. if you're talking about boris johnson, yes, there is a long list of scandals. as walter said, 53 now, i think is the number, members of his own party, cabinet ministers, who stepped town and said, "enough is enough." we have standards. if you want to be in a position of leadership, you have to have some character. you have to have ethics. there is a standard. on the other hand, here in the united states, we have a president who led an attempted coup against the united states government, and only a tiny handful of members of his own party have said even that is a line you cannot cross. so does that change if donald trump tries to run for president again? seems unlikely. he is too powerful with the base
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of support in the republican party. but there's a line in great britain. remains to be seen if there is one here. >> yeah. >> it does remain. the thing is, though, make no mistake of it, and i can only report about the republicans i talk to off the record, as well as friends and acquaintances, there is a growing exhaustion, mika, with having to defend donald trump, when the alternative is not joe biden or nancy pelosi. instead, would be ron desantis. >> right. >> glenn youngkin or somebody educational. >> yeah. >> so, suddenly, an exhaustion with the committee, one trumper after another trumper talking about his heinous behavior, un-american behavior, unpatriotic behavior, in the words of cassidy hutchinson. then in georgia, where prosecutors investigating donald trump.
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>> yeah. >> again, said she's got no problem pressing charges if that's where the evidence leads. >> before we get to that, i'm getting word from sources at the white house that they -- okay, they're probably going to start an account now for willow the cat. >> really? >> yeah, to respond to barry. keep your eye open for that. >> okay. >> that's coming. i'm serious. in georgia, as you said, joe -- >> heard that here first, the cat desk. >> you heard it from me. i just broke that story. >> very good. >> the prosecutor investigating former president trump's efforts to overturn the state's 2020 election results say more subpoenas, more of them than the ones we already know about, may be coming. multiple trump allies, including rudy giuliani and senator lindsey graham, were subpoenaed on tuesday. in an exclusive interview with nbc news, district attorney fannie willis weighed in on the election probe. >> well, i'm not going to get
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into the details of the investigation, but this is what i will tell you. election interference is a very important subject. we have been granted a special purpose grand jury by the judges here. i think it is an important investigation. what is important is that the grand jurors hear from anyone that may have impacted this election. >> could we expect to possibly see additional subpoenas from people in former president trump's inner circle, former trump associates? >> yes. >> are we talking about family members? are we talk about former white house officials? >> i mean, we'll have to see where the investigation leads us. but i think that people thought that we came into this as some kind of game. this is not a game, at all. what i am doing is very serious. it is very important work. and we are going to do our due diligence in making sure we look
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at all aspects of the case. so all you see is a prosecutor doing their due diligence. >> might we see a subpoena of the former president himself? >> anything is possible. >> wow. senator lindsey graham's lawyer says he plans to challenge the subpoena from the special grand jury in fulton county, georgia. the attorneys write in a statement, quote, this is all politics. >> actually, it's not. >> fulton county is engaged in a fishing expedition. >> no. >> and working in concert with the january 6th committee in washington. any information from an interview or deposition with senator graham would immediately be shared with the january 6th committee. >> yeah, there's nothing right about that statement, if you look at it. this is not politics? it's not all politics. you have a republican secretary of state who voted for donald trump who said lindsey graham called, and he believed lindsey graham was trying to pressure him to throw out ballots that
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were legally cast. so, no, it's not all politics. lindsey is a lawyer. he knows he is in hot water. we have donald trump on a recording, on a recording with the secretary of state of the state of georgia, saying, "find me one more vote." this should be easy, find me one more vote in georgia than i lost by. i just need those votes. you can do it. it's not hard. so, no, i think they have donald trump and lindsey dead at the center. >> there is a cult following and people who will allow anything, who don't care, and then there's the law. >> the law is the law. of course, we have everybody talking about the department of justice. we need the department of justice to step in. we need merrick garland to step in and do something. people saying the same about congress. congress needs to make donald trump accountable. well, it looks right now like it's the fulton county da that
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is actually going to hold the former president accountable and get to the bottom of this scheme. i say get to the bottom of the scheme. we don't need to find a secret taping system. trump called and got recorded by the secretary of state there trying to steal the election. >> it's kind of thrilling, isn't it, to see the gears of justice finally start to turn. >> yeah. >> it's pretty thrilling. the other thing that's interesting about it is, you know, it may not be donald trump's actions as he tried to direct the secret service car toward the mob so he could join it that ultimately leads to his being held accountable, potentially. rather, a call which was, of course, no less egregious, but a simple call to a fellow republican in a lowly state, you know, far away from washington, d.c. you know, when you talk to prosecutors who build cases,
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it's those little things that get you. you know, when you are a journalist, it's those things that kind of surprise you, that come out of left field, that ultimately really make the difference. and i think what's really, i think, hardening here is that the system in georgia seems to be working just right. public officials from day one did exactly what they needed to do. they recorded that call. they served the public, you know, the oath they took, and then you see the fulton county prosecutor, certainly not pursuing political charges, but doing her job in the face of what is enormous intimidation. we know that because of what other witnesses have testified during the january 6th committee. these witnesses are under enormous amount of pressure, and i think local officials, as well, we should not discount that, they're doing their job in the face of a campaign of intimidation that includes the right-wing media and the former president of the united states. >> joe, good question for lindsey graham is why was he
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calling the secretary of state of georgia at all? he is a senator from the state of south carolina. his office said it was because he was the chair of the senate judiciary committee, keeping tabs on the vote counts in several states. but are you really going to call into question the integrity of brad raffensperger, a republican who supported donald trump up until this moment, when donald trump put his thumb on the scale and tried to get the election flipped, who recorded these phone calls, and everything he claimed came out to be true. he says when lindsey graham called, raffensperger said, i felt i was pressured to throw out absentee ballots that were cast legally. if he wants to make it his word against raffensperger, that's a tough fight for lindsey graham. >> very tough fight. >> it is. >> and it's a tough battle because, again, you've got a georgia secretary of state who voted for donald trump, who had always supported donald trump, just wouldn't go along with helping donald trump steal the election. donald trump was placing phone calls to the secretary of state saying, "help me steal the election."
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about that same time, lindsey graham is calling. the secretary of state is saying this, not "the new york times" editorial page, not the "new yorker," not npr, but the republican secretary of state who voted for trump said, "yeah, he was calling me, pressuring me to throw out votes." so, i mean, walter, mara brings up a good point. up and down the line, people did a lot of things right here. i have to say, i'm always in the minority, i just am when it comes to public opinion, i guess. you know me. unfortunately, you have for a long time. but fourth of july, you look on twitter, and "i cannot celebrate fourth of july this year." i was just thinking of trumpers who are going before the january
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6th committee. yeah, it took too long. i'll be the first to say that. it took too long. guess what? they got there. the january 6th commission, you have one trumper after another trumper after another trumper actually calling it out and making it possible for donald trump to be brought to justice. secretary of state of georgia. again, here's a guy, again, who was a trumper. it was against his political interest to record donald trump's phone call. it was against his political interest. you know, everybody said politically he was a dead man walking. the same with kemp who, again, was all in with donald trump. but when it came to stealing an election, he didn't go for it. you can look at the county commissioners out in arizona, in maricopa county. i mean, they acted honorably time and time and time again. you can talk -- rusty said still
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vote for donald trump, which is bizarre, but he refused to rig the election when trump asked him to rig the election. you can talk about the people who were counting votes and were supposed to certify up in michigan, the republicans, whose careers are probably over. you can talk about liz cheney. i mean, you can talk about the court. a lot of people angry about the abortion ruling and gun ruling. but 63 federal judges said no, we're not going along with it. this same 6-3 donald trump court said no. they didn't even crack the door open. so, i don't know -- >> yeah, which -- >> -- i thought it was something to celebrate on july 4th. because, for all our failings, and we have a lot, the system held when we needed it to hold the most. >> yeah, on july 4th, you can celebrate democracy, all the things you said. you can add mike pence to the
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list. but it was pretty close. i think we have to always remember, we can't just sit back and celebrate. we have to be part of a process where we understand the rule of law. i was reading tim miller's book, "why we did it," and there's so many of them. lindsey graham was just devastated in that book because there were so many who didn't go along. so i think we have to celebrate those who made sure the system worked. the people who were like, you know, dwight eisenhower back in the mccarthy era in the '50s. but we also have to say, we're going to keep pressure on it. we're going to ask people, you know, why aren't you standing up? why are you being a collaborationist? and compare it. i love what willie said about britain. i mean, britain, whatever you may think of boris johnson, and he was hypocritical and
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disingenuous, but here, this is a guy who tried to overthrow a democracy, not just lying about a party. by the way, it is larry the cat. people on twitter have been -- >> i thought it was barry. >> our social media correspondent walter isaacson. we're going to come back to the uk and london in a moment. we want to turn to the story we mentioned the top of the hour, fbi officials smeared by donald trump say they were selected for an extremely invasive irs edit under the former president's administration. former fbi director james comey and former deputy director andrew mccabe revealed they both faced, supposedly random audits of their 2017 and 2019 returns. according to the paper, the odds of being selected are about 1 in 19,000, even higher according to some people. at the time both audits
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occurred, the irs was run by a trump appointee. comey, who said trump demanded his loyalty in a private dinner, was fired four months after trump took office. it led to robert mueller's investigation into possible links between the trump campaign and russia. it also led to mccabe's promotion to acting fbi director before he, too, was fired one day before he was set to retire. in a statement to the "times," the irs notes any allegations of wrongdoing are passed along for further review. a trump spokesman told the paper the former president had, quote, no knowledge of those audits. joining us now, the author of the new reporting, "new york times" correspondent, national security analyst michael schmidt. michael, good morning. how rare is this audit? and is there any possibility it is actually a coincidence, that these two men, the targets of donald trump's ire for many years now, were audited in the same years?
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>> well, you know, lightning can strike, and lightning can strike in the same area that it had struck before. so unusual and rare things do occur. but what occurred here is extraordinary. either there was, through sheer luck, through random sampling, the irs was able to land a blow through its audit process on the two people that trump had atop his enemies list. the irs was able to deliver a blow better than trump was able to on his own, or the process was corrupted. either of those outcomes are pretty extraordinary. the irs has a history in the past of being used and accused of its power being employed for political purposes. in this instance, many people sort of look at this and say,
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what are the chances? there were 5,000 people that were picked out of the 150 million returns from 2017 for this type of audit. comey was one of them. in 2019, there were 153 million returns. out of those, 8,000 were picked. mccabe was one of those. statisticians will tell you that the chances of two people, you know, who knew each other being picked for such an audit could happen, but the chances are very, very, very small. >> michael, it's great to see you. thanks for that reporting. can you tell us a little bit from some of the details in your story about what this kind of audit feels like when you're the target of it? how did this affect the former fbi director and his deputy? >> so most audits are about something that the irs has picked up in your return. you filed a return and claimed a
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500,000 square foot home office. they send you a letter and say, "hey, what's going on here?" you explain, "oh, i made a mistake. i meant 500 square feet." you go back and forth about a particular issue. a small number of audits are done to figure out what the tax gap is. that's the gap between the amount of taxes americans pay and the amount they should be paying. so to figure that out, the irs goes out and tries to look at the entire country and figure out who is not paying their taxes. to do that, they need folks from all different parts of the economic income levels. of economic income levels. in that process, they randomly pick americans. when they go to the people they pick, they don't know what they're looking for because they've been randomly selected. so to understand who is not
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paying their taxes, they have to turn over every part of your economic year. you essentially have to recreate your financial year to the irs. you have to explain every single deduction that you took. you have to show receipts for those things. in comey's case, he had to show -- he had to give the irs a family christmas card that showed that he actually had the two children that he claimed as dependants. the irs wanted a receipt from a printer toner he had bought two years earlier. when he couldn't find the receipt, they were trying to find an american express card statement that could have shown that. it's that type of audit, that type of invasiveness that goes on here. for the comeys, it took them 15 months to go through the audit. it cost them $5,000 in accounting fees, something comey could afford.
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i'm not sure many americans could afford $5,000 in accounting fees. and in the end, they figured out that comey had overpaid on his taxes. he got a $340 something dollar refund. >> michael schmidt, thank you so much for your reporting. we'll be reading it in "the new york times.". breaking news. the bbc is saying boris johnson is going to resign. >> wow. >> 12:30 london time. that is going to be in 6 minutes. we'll be right back with breaking news of that announcement when "morning joe" returns. when "morning joe" returns.
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welcome back to "morning joe." breaking news from 10 downing street. boris johnson is going to step out, and according to the bbc, will be announcing his resignation as leader of the conservative party. wants to stay on as prime minister until autumn to give conservatives time to pick their
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next leader. but labor is saying no can do. that they will call for a no confidence vote if he doesn't step down immediately. so let's go to keir simmons right now. keir, it's something terheresa y was seen as a hapless prime minister by boris johnson. she led the conservative party july 2016 to july of 2019, three years. johnson, july of 2019 to 2022, three years. it looks like he is going out as quickly and as unceremoniously as his predecessor. >> reporter: yeah, joe. that will hurt him. just to set the scene, and i know folks watching who know british politics well will recognize this scene, over to my right there, what i can see is a podium now. it's been brought out into downing street. at either end of downing street
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now are staff from the cabinet office from 10 downing street, from number 11 downing street, walking out to listen to this now hotly expected speech by the british prime minister boris johnson, in which we expect him to announce his resignation. there is already now more argument, joe, over whether he will stay until the fall or whether he should just go and there should be a caretaker prime minister. but you're right, this was -- this just became inevitable. by this morning, there were commentators comparing boris johnson to president trump. don't say sorry, don't concede. it just was untenable. you know, guys, he was beginning to look like the black knight in monte python and the flesh wounds, as more than a quarter of the government resigned. it couldn't go on. now, what we're going to see, and an interesting question, we're going to see what that famous speech in downing street
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by a british prime minister, when they admit it is over. he's walking out now. >> good afternoon, everybody. good afternoon. thank you, thank you. it is clearly now the will of the parliamentary conservative party that there should be a new leader of that party, and, therefore, a new prime minister. and i have agreed with brady, the chairman of our back bench mps, that the process of choosing that new leader should begin now. and the timetable will be announced next appointed a cabinet to serve until the new leader is approved. many in 2019 voting conservative for the first time, thank you for the incredible mandate. the biggest majority since 1987. the biggest share of a vote
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since 1979. and the reason i have fought so hard in the last few days to continue to deliver that mandate in person was not just because i wanted to do so but because i felt it was my job, my duty, my obligation to you to continue to do what we promised in 2019. and, of course, i'm immensely proud of the achievements of this government, from getting brexit done to settling our relations with the continent for over half a century, reclaiming the power for this country to make its own laws in parliament, getting us all through the pandemic, delivering the fastest vaccine rollout in europe, the fastest exit from lockdown, and in the last few months, leading the west in standing up to putin's aggression in ukraine. let me say now to the people of ukraine, that i know that we in the uk will continue to back
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your fight for freedom for as long as it takes. and at the same time, in this country, we've been pushing forward a vast program of investment, in infrastructure, in skills, the biggest in a century. human beings, it's the genius, talent, enthusiasm and imagination are evenly distributed throughout the population, but opportunity is not. that's why we must keep leveling up, keep unleashing the potential in every part of the united kingdom. and if we can do that in this country, we will be the most prosperous in europe. and in the last few days, i've tried to persuade my colleagues it'd been eccentric to change governments when we're delivering so much and we have a vast mandate and when we're actually only a handful of points behind in the polls, even in midterm after quite a few months of relentless sledging.
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when the economic scene is so difficult domestically and internationally. and i regret not to have been successful in those arguments and, of course, it is painful not to be able to see through so many ideas and projects myself. but as we've seen at westminster, the herd instinct is powerful. when the herd moves, it moovmov. my friends, in politics, no one is remotely indispensable. our brilliant and darwinian system will produce another leader, equally committed to taking this country forward through tough times. not just helping families to get through it but changing and improving the way we do things, cutting burdens on businesses and families and, yes, cutting taxes, because that is the way to generate the growth and the income we need to pay for great public services. and to that new leader, i say,
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whoever he or she may be, i will give you as much support as i can. and to you, the british public, i know that there will be many people who are relieved and perhaps quite a few who will be disappointed, and i want you to know how sad i am to be giving up the best job in the world. but them's the brakes. i want to thank carrie, our children, all members of my family who had to put up with so much for so long. i want to thank the british civil service for all the help and support that you have given our police, our emergency services and, of course, our fantastic nhs, who at a critical moment helped to extend my own period in office, as well as our armed services and our agencies that are admired around the world. and our consecutive party
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members and supporters whose campaigning makes our democracy possible. i want to thank the wonderful staff here at checkers, here at number 10 and, of course, at checkers, and our fantastic prop force detectives. the one group, by the way, who never leak. above all, i want to thank you, the british public, for the immense privilege that you have given me. and i want you to know that, from now on until the new prime minister is in place, your interests will be served and the government of the country will be carried on. being prime minister is an education in itself. i've traveled to every part of the united kingdom. in addition to the beauty of our natural world, i found so many people possessed of such
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boundless british originality and so willing to tackle old problems in new ways, that i know that even if things can sometimes seem dark now, our future together is golden. thank you, all, very much. thank you. >> that is british prime minister boris johnson at 12:37, stepping back in through the doors of 10 downing street, announcing to the british people and the world that conservative leaders had let him know that it was time for him to step down as leader of the conservative party. he said it was painful. he was sad to give up what he considered to be the best job in the world. but as the prime minister said, when the herd moves, it moves. >> it moves. >> and he talked about our brilliant and darwinian political system. assured the british people he'd
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find an able successor. he said he did not want to leave after achieving for the toris their largest majority since 1979, after winning in areas that the labor party had dominated. in fact, boris johnson's election, it was much like donald trump's, in that johnson, the conservative, won in areas that conservatives had not won in for decades. he also had a message for the ukrainian people. but also did say it was eccentric to change governments when they had ridden such a huge mandate into power and still only a few points behind in the polls. finally, he thanked his family, the british civil service, and the british people for giving him the best job in the world. let's go to 10 downing street, keir simmons. keir, what's your reaction to
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the prime minister, and does it look like labor is going to push for a no confidence vote? >> reporter: well, it was classic boris johnson, wasn't it, joe? i've mentioned before, the prime minister walked out into downing street here to make the resignation speech. i mentioned that he had been being compared today to donald trump. never concede, never apologize. he didn't apologize. he didn't really concede, did he? he talked about his mandates. the mandate that he said was bigger than -- he had to go back to the 1970s to find such a groundswell in his favor in the last general election. he painted a picture of being pushed out, despite the authority that he clearly continues to believe that he had from the british people. the reason why so many have argued that that wasn't right,
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of course, joe, is just to understand the british system. why the prime minister leads his party in a general election, it is the party that the people vote for. the mandate is with the party and with the members of parliament. you have the constitutional right to decide they'll have a different leader and a different prime minister. you know, you didn't hear any of that, necessarily, from boris johnson. i mean, he did say them's the brakes, which is a nice boris johnson kind of turn of phrase. but, you know, look, uultimatel, the other thing british johnson was trying to do is reassure the world. in particular, he said, and you mentioned it, joe, we in the uk will continue to back your fight for freedom in ukraine as long as it takes. clearly, any new leader here in britain is likely to continue the ukraine policy and that alliance with president biden. the british people support it.
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however, inevitably, a new leader is not going to have won the last election. they're going to have been put in by their conservative party. the opposition, you asked about the opposition, joe, they'll say, you don't have the authority to lead the country until the general election. you'll either have a few years with a leader who is seen to have less authority, or you're going to have a general election. all of that means instability here in the uk. such an instable time for europe. boris johnson was right about that, in the sense that it's not just the war in ukraine but also the incredible economic headwinds that countries here in ukraine and you guys there in the u.s. are facing. he said he would have liked to have led britain through those headwinds and get to the other side. fundamentally, the trouble was that he was found to have told mistruths again and again and again. in the end, the polls show the british people have lost faith in him. >> keir, the prime minister made abundantly clear that he is not
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leaving office willingly, in that speech where he listed through all his accomplishments and said he tried to convince his party it would be eccentric to change governments. but he couldn't prevail on them to keep him in power. he described the herd mentality. the question is, what happens now? the prime minister said he's not leaving today, that it could go on for weeks and, indeed, months, perhaps into the fall. what do the next few months look like in great britain? >> reporter: what we've seen in the past, willie, say, for example, with theresa may, is the prime minister becomes a caretaker, if you like, and stays in position. actually, he's been appointing new members of his cabinet, because so many have resigned today. the prime minister stays until the party, in this case, of course, the conservative party, can find a new leader and elect a new prime minister, perhaps around about by the fall.
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but such damage is done to his credibility, there are very influential senior members of the conservative party who think that even isn't tenable. will there now be a fight over whether boris johnson stays in downing street or is thrown out, the way only british politics does? as you guys know, when it is time to go, the moving trucks arrive here in downing street very fast. the prime minister is pushed out. i mean, the other side to that argument, of course, is if you brought in somebody else as an alternative caretaker prime minister, would they have more authority than boris johnson has now? there is no way around this now being a summer of uncertainty, before you get a new leader. >> right. >> yes. >> reporter: then after that, the -- >> oh, we lost keir's audio there. talking about, joe, definitely weeks, potentially months of a little bit of political chaos, and also a question hanging over 10 downing street is do they
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throw him out, or do they allow him to stay as a caretaker? a lot of question marks now, though, in the wake of his stepping down. >> yeah, no doubt the toris would like to have until autumn to prepare for the next leader. and perhaps a snap election, to get the next leader in place, to get things in order. but -- >> sure. >> -- labor, obviously, is going to try to move as quickly as possible to move towards a new election. because they will say that whoever boris johnson's successor is will not have the will of the people behind them. since johnson, who was elected and elected overwhelmingly, as he said, the largest majority since thatcher in 1979, the largest tori majority since 1979, whoever his successor is going to be will not have the
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authority of the british voting public behind them. >> a lot of uncertainty in britain itself, but big picture as we cover this breaking news, boris johnson standing in front of 10 downing street and resigning, big picture, joe, give us a sense of your thoughts of what's happening here. you know, there's been this kind of move toward a certain type of leadership across the world. definitely, we've seen our taste of what a fascism wanna be looks like in office. what do you think this means, pulling back 20,000 feet? >> well, i do believe that this could be the beginning of the end of conservative populism in a dominant role, or at least the
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rise of that movement. you see what happened in britain in 2015 and 2016 in the united states. what happened in italy. the rise of le pen again in france. the belief that she was going to win two elections. getting drubbed by a quite unpopular opponent, macron. still getting drubbed because the french people didn't want a conservative populist in. you see what's happening with donald trump with the january 6th commission, what's happening with the investigations, what's happening in fulton county, georgia. you're seeing one trumper after another trumper testifying under oath, saying his actions, as we saw last week, are un-american, were un-american, were unpatriotic. with boris johnson, this is nothing new. i mean, johnson's lying is nothing new. he was fired from the "times" for making up quotes, i believe,
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in 1978. he went on to become a columnist for the "telegraph." got in trouble with the "telegraph" for his opinion pieces. being less than truthful there. of course, his political career has been marred with one lie after another. "the new york times" this morning has a wonderful decryption of how johnson would move in and out of crises. he would lie to the british people. he would then be caught in that lie. he would then come back out. he'd give another statement that he claimed to be making in the spirit of transparency. that, too, would be a lie. about five, six, seven iterations later, he would finally get to the truth and, of course, apologize. have a full-throated apology to the british people for all of the lies. and britain finally said enough. the question is, will
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republicans in america, will conservatives in america finally get to that point with donald trump, that conservative toris got to in britain? let's bring in associate editor of "commentary" magazine and msnbc contributor, noah rothman. the author of "the rise of the new puritans." we'll get to that in a minute. obviously, breaking news here, with boris johnson in bribritai and i'm curious what your thought is. i was joking earlier, that every five, six, seven years we hear of a new challenge to western democracy. it's going to -- you know, whether it's the authoritarians, the right-wing poppopulists, th is a new wave that will end western democracy once and for all. it looks at least like in britain that that risk has passed for now. >> possibly. there's something somewhat refreshing about the normalness of the breakdown of this
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government. as keir said, it does reflect the may government. oddly, the cameron government was somewhat more competent. you wouldn't have known that at the time. but to see the gradual dissolution of this government and the forcing out of the prime minister does suggest that the gears are moving as they should. we're not seeing something very unprecedented. we're not seeing a populist revolt. we are seeing a moral-lead revolt. if you are inclined toward republicanism and a republican function of government, this is something that should be rather heartening, even if it is drubbing for conservatives and a bad sign if you are a conservative in the uk. labor is coming up hard behind. nevertheless, we're not seeing street action, direct action, anything revolutionary here. this is all very normal. >> all very normal, which, of course, is something we haven't had in some time in the united states. curious, noah, what would your
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answer be to willie's question, and my question, why is it the conservatives in britain hold their conservative leaders accountable when they're caught lying repeatedly, and conserve leaders in the as a dedicated patriot, i hope we avoid parliamentary politics in this country. we seem to be gravitating towards the kind of more parliamentary system, a coalition based system. the prime minister is beholden to constituents, as well as his party. they don't vote for the man in the uk, they vote for the party. is a much more institutional
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system. it is one that is responsive in this way to elite opinion, less so than in the united states. in ways that i sort of cherish as an american. that is probably what i guess is contributing to it. i am not an expert in british politics >> walter, what did you think when you watched boris johnson? defiant but stepping aside. >> sort of. i think he will have a little bit of controversy saying that he wants to stay through october or something until we pick a new leader, as opposed to having jeremy hardman be the caretaker. you want to have a clean break. i don't think this settles everything. secondly, you have to look at the very large thing he did, which is a realignment the way others have done, ronald reagan and trump, bring working-class britons who usually vote labor into the tory party. that realignment is something you don't have a natural leader, conservative party leader who can keep that going.
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it was a realignment. i think boris johnson storing up more controversy by clinging to office for another three months is not a good idea. i don't know what he will accomplish during those three months. >> walter talked about realignment. i remember watching the last elections out of britain. it was fascinating that the torys won seats and all these labor strongholds the conservatives had never won. i sat down thinking, my god, this is a global phenomenon, just like we saw in counties across iowa, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania.
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now it was donald trump, same with johnson in britain. it looks like labor may have gotten a leader that will respond to that. the question is, will democrats in america do the same? >> there needs to be democratic soul-searching. the united dynamics are different, but at the same time, democrats need to do soul- searching, especially in terms how they win over more latinos, which do not vote as a single block and are not a single demographic. there is more work to be done. that doesn't mean they should completely abandon their beat base. in the united states, there is good reason to really double down on the promises to the base. for example, voting rights. if you can't deliver on promises, as republicans have delivered to their voters, the democrats may not have earned votes. they need to look harder at that . it is not really enough to just tell americans to vote. you have to give them a reason
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to. >> do have a question for noah? i am sure you have read his book . you plan to give it out as christmas presents this fall. >> i haven't gotten to read it yet. i'm looking forward to a. it is ironic because i wrote a piece over the weekend in defense of sex for pleasure. i am not sure i completely agree with you. but i would love to hear your thoughts on why you think this is a particularly progressive problem. >> for all of our adult lives, you can count on the right to be prudish, moralistic. the keen sense of propriety. by contrast, liberalize emphasize self gratification, even at the risk of self-destruction. now we are treated to profound moral campaigns led by the left. entertainment companies that plus pledge to reduce didactic
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themes at the expense of a plot to serve a grander social purpose. comedy critics, comedians, emphasizing the pain you have to indore to enjoy something as frivolous as a punchline. sports coverage that introduces long depressions about the state of racial dynamics in america. and when fans complain, they are explicitly admonished for putting their desire for a pastime, a diversion, above the need to dwell on the horrors of the world. this is a puritanical outlook that used to be native to the right. this is a thread you can tease out all through the 16th century through to
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progressivism in the 19th century and today. to dwell on sexual politics, because that is what people think of when they think of america, a caricature bluenose, more aligned with the victorian era conception a puritanical talk, but nevertheless, it is our stereotype. the modern left emphasizes self gratification in the form of sexual identity, the proliferating orientations. all of them have an associated political program. if you dig into it, the political instrument of this idea of sexual freedom. we have a rhetorical permissive atmosphere, but at the same time, there is a network of rituals you have to endure or observe to observe consent. consent is something that every activity that is legal observes . nonconsensual encounters are a crime, but we also understand that in the progressive activist class, it is a nebulous situation we need to expand and expose. in some cases, we need to write into statute. it has created an atmosphere of tension in which
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wooing a partner is a fraud prospect. the younger generation has far less sex than their parents and grandparents. >> oh please. >> it is in their surveys. >> than their grandparents? come on. here's the deal. this may have played a couple of weeks ago. but i think you need to write an afterword about the new puritans after reading the supreme court ruling where you actually had supreme court justices writing a majority opinion saying, you know what? we need to look at contraception. we need to look at what consenting adults do in their own bedroom. we have whip it out the plague of privacy in the constitution that would actually allow consenting adults to have that
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freedom. you look at the supreme court decision, in my god, it is as puritanical as anything we have seen. >> i am not only referring to the concurrence of comments, but also, i don't think you will find many legal scholars that will say that the justification by justice alito saying that, even though we ripped out the plank that griswold and all these other case laws have been based on, even though re-rips that outcome i don't worry about it, because at the end of the day, this is just about abortion. it was a distinction without a difference. thomas drove the point home. what can be more puritanical than the conservative, supreme court and conservatives trying to reach into americans
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bedrooms and tell them what they can't do? >> there is a person moral enthusiasm we have seen after the dobbs decision. the scope of this book explicitly leaves out law, education, government, politics. the things politics are supposed to be about politics. this book is outside politics, relationships, entertainment. i agree that, if i were to write a book about the old puritans, i write about republicans. this is a native concept to conservatism. this is a new story about the discovery of a very old form of propriety, one that is native to progressivism. the sexual revolutionary he sews the emphasizes sexual gratification is being replaced with one about personal
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boundaries, understanding that men and women are together in situation base in alcohol, it can be dangerous. this is a conservative predilection. because it works. it is a theory of social organization that works. to observe it and progresses is interesting. that is why this book explores that new phenomenon. >> i am really shocked by the stats. i will stay away from the villages for a while. >> the book is the rise of the new puritans, fighting back against the war on fun. what an exciting panel. >> we have all learned a lot today. thank you for being with us. it is the top of the hour on this thursday, july 7. we are rolling into the third hour of morning joe. we will start with the next january 6 committee hearing
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scheduled for next tuesday. our next guest previews and overlooked portion of testimony of white house aide cassidy hutchinson. the potential connection from the former u.s. president to the extremist white ring groups came through her account of the order by trump to mark meadows to call roger stone and mike flynn, which meadows did the evening before the capitol attack. the order to meadows, even though hutchinson said she did not know what was discussed, is significant because it shows the former president seeking to have the channel to two figures with close ties to the leaders of far right proud boys and the oath keepers. the directive is notable since it was trump himself who initiated the outreach, suggesting it was not an
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instance of far right political operatives freelancing, for instance, potential strategies to overturn the 2020 election results. all of this is important because unresolved questions for investigators remain, whether trump knew that the proud boys and oath keepers wind storm the capitol, and whether trump was in contact with their leaders, who have since been indicted for seditious conspiracy. joining us now is the congressional reporter for the guardian. also with us, a senior politics reporter for the insider. good to have you both. is that connection clearer? what are you hearing from sources? >> i think the connection is the clearest we have had today. it is really significant. we spent a lot of time focusing on trumps connections to john
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eastman and mark meadows and this political plan to stop the certification on january 6. but if you step back and look at what was happening on january 5, trump knew by then that his vice president was not going to play ball and stop the certification. you can get an insight into what his frame of mind was. he was trying to get his chief of staff to call around and see what the plans were for january 6. cassidy hutchinson filled in the blank. he was ordering meadows to call stone and mike flynn. these are two figures with extensive ties to extremist groups. roger stone has close ties to the pattern proud boys way before the election was called for joe biden. they worked very closely together. they were personal friends. mike flynn, meanwhile, has his own protective detail all the way back through december with
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the oath keepers. these are people you would go to if you wanted to know what the proud boys and oath keepers were planning to do on january 6. the community now has this through line from trump and the white house to the extremist groups. >> let's talk a little bit about pat cipollone he, the white house counsel, who we now know is going to testify behind closed doors tomorrow. there is an expectation we will learn what he said through either a transcript or video played at a future committee hearing. this is a name we have heard the committee really wants. in fact, two weeks ago, liz cheney went on a bit of a monologue during the hearings about him. set the stakes. what are the expectations as to what they hope to hear from cipollone? >> the stakes are very high as
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far as what will come out of his testimony before the committee. federal prosecutors are hoping he sets out to more evidence about what trump's state of mind was before the insurrection took place and the day after. you heard the testimony with cassidy hutchinson, how he privately warned her about what possible crimes would be committed if trump went to capitol hill. that is very significant. even with her testimony, federal prosecutors say it is really not enough for the justice department to go forward and charge trump. but it is really significant if you have this former white house counsel set the scene about what trump's state of mind was and what his intent was. that is very significant. >> that is a big picture from washington. let's look closer at georgia.
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you analyzed the grand jury investigation. you write this, the fulton county district attorney is ramping up her investigation into former president donald trump after the special joint grand jury issued several subpoenas to members of his inner circle. this could be one step closer to formally charging trump, a decision that could come as early as this fall. the investigation poses one of trump's most pressing legal challenges, which focuses on whether he or his top advisers may have violated state laws against soliciting election fraud and racketeering. we heard an interview yesterday that she has not ruled out issuing subpoenas to anyone, including, perhaps, the former president. what is the peril for donald trump in georgia? >> several legal experts say
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that this investigation could be the biggest challenge posed to the former president. she has been conducting this investigation for over 17 months. that is significant. over that time, she is presented a lot of evidence before the special grand jury. she also had a chance to talk to witnesses about some of trump's tactics he used against georgia republican officials, trying to pressure them to overturn the state election results. this is not the first time she has handled a high profile case. they say she will not fold under pressure. she wants to do due diligence to ensure she has enough evidence to understand the scope and magnitude of the investigation, and whether there is enough evidence to charge the former president. >> there is an expectation among many that that case in georgia may provide the most
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legal peril for the former president and his allies. let's shift back to where you are in washington. set the scene about what we will hear from the committee next week. on tuesday we will hear from them about links between trump world and these hate groups, but they are also setting the stage for at least one more hearing to paint a picture of what trump did for those nearly 3 hours when his supporters were committing violence in his name at the capitol. we also know that the committee could be nimble. to anticipate that will be next week and then they wrap this up? or could there be more hearings to come? >> i think there is a possibility there might be an extra hearing maybe sandwiched in between this one on tuesday in the final one anticipated to be about the 187 minutes when trump set in the oval office not doing anything about the
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riots. one of the potential topics floated internally is whether to look at the different groups and what they were planning with respect to the willard hotel. we have been talking about this for 11 months, this trump war room at the willard hotel with giuliani, john eastman, steve bannon setting up shop, and then roger stone in a different war room of his own. and the right wing star alex jones there. they were competing with each other and had different ways to do it.
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it became a power tussle. it will be interesting to see whether they do a separate hearing on that, or whether they amalgamate that into the proud boys hearing on tuesday or the final hearing. some members of the committee have previewed the fact we may get more hearings later on in the summer or fall. as you say, they are nimble. >> thank you very much for your reporting. we have had reporting from you and others. you have been sketching together what happened. we have learned about the war rooms. also, donald trump at the debate telling the proud boys to stand back and stand by. tell me about your reporting. you have a book coming out in july that we will talk about later. with all of your reporting,
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what needs to be stitched together here? what does the committee expect to hear from this testimony that will help them get to the ultimate goal? >> a name we should all look out for is roger stone. as we all know, he was one of trump's earliest political advisors. he was the first person trump brought on in 2015. he always stayed in trump's orbit. stone has definitive links to these hate groups. he is known to associate with the proud boys and use them for his own personal security at events. he has maintained connections to them. investigators will zero in on stone as a linchpin. we know that trump explicitly refused to condemn the proud boys at that debate and gave, instead, what many believe, was a nod and wink, stand back and
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stand by. throughout his time in office, he would always head towards these groups. he refused to condemn them. it is well-established, the visible role they played at the capitol. many members going up to the capitol ahead of the speech, laying the groundwork for what would come when the masses arrived. we are going to hear a lot about connections and other possible links between people in trump's orbit and these groups at the forefront of the violence on january 6. >> that is an important point. we have learned, thanks to these hearings, the proud boys and owes cooper's were not casual participants. they did not just follow the crowd, in fact, there was premeditation and planning. they were in tactical gear and
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moving in stacks, using a military term, they had formations. they were the first to breach and let the crowd rush in behind him. the question will be, was there a level of coordination from the top, of the white house, the oval office, the night before at the willard hotel with these groups. >> and of course, the feds going after them for piercy to commit sedition. we did see that nixon had his tapes, and you have these groups to allow documentary filmmakers to go around and videotape them while they are conspiring in basements to commit sedition against the united states government. you are exactly right. it seems the feds have them dead to center on the seditious charges. the question is, do they draw
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the link between them and roger stone and donald trump? or other people, rudy giuliani, steve bannon, other people at the willard war room. can they draw the line? if so, i expect the justice department to bring charges against donald trump, but of course, that is one of the things the committee is trying to figure out. where do the lines connect? >> at the very least, jo, i do remember up until joe biden took office of the presidency, we had a lot of debates as to whether or not it would be a peaceful transition. he did not go peacefully. he just did not.
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he could not do it. he could not leave peacefully. whether or not they can completely tied together and bring charges, i mean, it looks bad, but what we are learning in these hearings is that he did not go peacefully. >> our debate was whether he would leave the white house, would he be out of the white house at noon on january 20? he was out of the white house. >> but the debate was whether he would leave peacefully. he did not. he left violently. we are learning new information about one of the worst school shootings, and i have to say one of, because there are many, in u.s. history. the tragedy that upended uvalde, texas. a report by texas state university identified three circumstances that, if any one of them had played out differently, could have meant fewer or no deaths at all. sam brock reports.
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>> reporter: this morning, the highly criticized police response in uvalde magnified by state commission report spotlighting three circumstances before the suspect entered the building that could have saved some, or all, of the 21 people massacred. it starts with the officer reporting he saw the suspect and could shoot the attacker. but according to report, the officer waited for permission, but he didn't hear a response. the report says that he turned to get permission from a supervisor, but the suspect already entered the school. the findings also stating a reasonable officer would conclude, in this case, based upon the circumstances, that use of deadly force was warranted. state standards don't require officers to fire their weapon for more than 100 yards away. grieving parents, like javier,
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trying to process this latest gut punch. does this report alleviate your anger or inflames it? >> it inflames it more. it is true now that coming you know, he did have a shot. >> reporter: part it is a report, two other critical safeguards that failed. a teacher closed a door that was propped open, but did not check to see if the door was locked. because it was not locked, the attacker immediately access the building. senator gutierrez is suing the state and demanding transparency. >> we will get the full picture of what went on. >> reporter: the authorities labeling beyond the school police chief, highlighting how the rank-and-file officers could have tried to breach the exterior windows of the classroom, among other options. >> i am angry. i want justice from the bottom to the top.
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>> joining is now is our investigations corresponded. this is so painful to hear. we knew some of this, but what is new is, this officer who had the shooter in his sights was waiting for authorization to take the shot and never got it. >> he has a rifle with the shooter in his sights. the shooter is on school property. the call is out about a shooting. their reports of seen this guy with a long gun. there is somebody you don't know on school property with an assault rifle, and you have him in your sites. a couple of things, under texas law, according to this report, and this report is not put
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together by just some university or undergrad throwing together a report, this is by a division of the texas state university and is well regarded as one of the best active shooter research programs in the country. they set a lot of standards and are experts of this. under texas law, you have a duty as a police officer, if you think somebody is about to commit a murder, you can use lethal force. you don't have to wait to yell something to them. you don't have to wait until he starts firing at you. you are legally authorized to act at that moment. some people in policing will point out he is over 100 yards away, and it is difficult to be accurate on a shooting range, let alone when the heart rate is up and you are ready to a scene. but there are two things here underscored. number one, this idea that, again, you're waiting for permission to act.
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you are waiting to engage. that has been an underlying theme of this entire incident. another example. number two, if you miss, there could be repercussions, bystanders, but he is focused at you, not at kids. he is still not inside the school. this happened outside the school . it is another revelation, on top of a series of revelations, that have been difficult to hear. >> it is never an easy decision for law enforcement officer to take a shot, but with the benefit of hindsight, he would have. and then the shooter would shoot back, and now you have an engaged shooter, and law enforcement could have taken amount, ideally. what else was reinforced here? >> we saw for the first time the images of that window outside the classroom with the bullet holes.
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it is another opportunity to engage the shooter. goes back to what we were talking about. if he is firing at you outside the classroom, he is not firing inside the classroom with kids and teachers. that is another component. the physical security aspect. i fully appreciate the fact that it is one of the last days of school, parents day, the doors are open. i remember when i was in school, the active shooter thing wasn't even something we thought about. we had doors open. appreciate all of that. but that was a different world. in today's world, you have to have proper security measures. at a bare minimum, the door needed to be shut and locked. from the timeline, this whole incident happened within minutes . most of the damage was already done. >> it seems like nearly every
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day there's another heartbreaking revelation about the response, or lack thereof. are there more probes being done into what happened? what is the fallout here going to be? will there be changes to departments in uvalde? the commissioner is stepping down from the city council. what else will we see? >> we have not seen a single person fired. that is the thing we will look for. we haven't heard any details. presumably, we will get information. texas lawmakers are looking at it. dps is taking a look at all of it as well. we have the doj investigation providing that hindsight overview as to what happened. definitely more to come, probably not the last time we will talk to a parent and relate to them some tough information. >> it is devastating to know their child may have been saved if somebody acted quicker. still ahead, pat cipollone he
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has now reached a deal to be interviewed by the house select committee. we will talk about what to expect from the person some lawmakers call the missing link in the investigation. plus, the man who confessed to the shooting in highland park, illinois giving up details on how he escaped and what he planned to do after the attacks, potentially to attack another gathering on the fourth of july. you are watching morning joe. we will be right back. will be right or ai that knows what your body will do before you do. cool. introducing elevance health. >>
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the former white house counsel who some have called the missing link in the house january 6 investigation has now agreed to speak with the committee after being subpoenaed last week. pat cipollone he will sit down with lawmakers for a transcribed interview behind
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closed doors. he was in the west wing during the insurrection and has been mentioned by several other witnesses during in the hearings. he repeatedly pushed back against the white house efforts to overturn the 2020 election results, according to them, and often voice concerns directly to trump himself. but until now, he has refused to cooperate with the investigation, siding attorney- client privilege. obviously, the name came up a lot in the drawing testimony from cassidy hutchinson last week. it seems like he now had to step forward to fill in some of the blanks and corroborate some of what she said. what is a transcribed interview? what will this look like? >> this is a very important development for the committee. pat cipollone a is an extremely key figure who was there for several of the major moments in
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this plot to overturn the selection. he may know things that we don't even know about yet that he could reveal tomorrow. i do expect his testimony to be played next week at some of the hearings. the committee likes to know exactly what a person is going to say before they go up there. they don't want to turn one of these hearings into a food fight. they like to know what a person will say before they decide to put them out there. we will see video clips, but not necessarily cipollone sitting at the witness stand. >> the privilege would be legal recommendations he made to the president. anything touching on his representation of the president where the president would have the attorney-client privilege where they are just talking to each other. i guess the comments he made to
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cassidy hutchinson, would not be privileged. >> everyone can see that pat cipollone has attorney-client privilege with donald trump. he resisted coming forward and talking about some of those things. i do think we will see him not necessarily talk about direct conversations with donald trump, but that doesn't mean he can't talk about lots of other material. we heard cassidy hutchinson talk about how pat cipollone and mark meadows were going back and forth into the oval office to try to get donald trump to call off the mob. kenny talk about the things he said to mark meadows? we know he was there for meetings about seizing voting machines. he was there when bill barr offered his resignation. he was there when they had draft letters, false draft
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letters from the justice department, and when he shut down plans from john easement to put forward false slates of electors. so many things that pat cipollone knows. his testimony could be crucial for this committee. he is probably the biggest witness left that they could not get. i expect this interview to be very important tomorrow. >> aids to the former president are cooperated to an extent. this committee has had these hearings tightly scripted. each has a theme building towards a narrative. the one they have announced on tuesday is about the hate groups, the proud boys, et cetera. we are not seeing the testimony of cipollone fitting in with that. when do you think they would
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get to him? >> i guess they use his testimony during the final hearing, which we expect to be about what they call 187 minutes of an action. those three hours from roughly 1:00 where donald trump does nothing as the mom storms the capital. we have heard testimony already he was agreeing with the mob and endorsing the chance to hang mike pence. we expect the testimony by sarah matthews, for me deputy press secretary, to be used during that time. i think we will hear a lot from him then. depending on what pat cipollone says on the video, if he tells them something they didn't anticipate or found truly
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explosive, we could potentially see that at any time. coming up, we go live to the white house on the heels of the trip by the president to ohio. our next guest was there. that is straight ahead on morning joe. ahead on morning joe. >>
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break free from the big three and switch to xfinity mobile. together we will change the trajectory of this commonwealth. friends, we are going to start that transformation on day one. [ cheering and applause ] there is no time to waste. this is the spirit of virginia coming together like never before, the spirit of washington and jefferson and
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madison and monroe and patrick henry. virginians standing up and taking our commonwealth back. >> that is the virginia governor in november of last year after winning the gubernatorial race. what you think about that? glenn youngkin, overall? >> i have got to say, he is a more traditional republican than what we have seen over the past five or six years. he tries to avoid looking too extreme. the national press was focused on his talks about crt and keeping it out of schools. that actually, on the grassroots level, people were paying closer attention to his opponent, saying that parents need to mind their own business when it comes to the teaching of their children in school.
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that was obviously a gas that really hurt terry mcauliffe. also, the ads he was running, asked to cut sales tax on groceries at a time when inflation was starting to grow. some republicans i have been talking to think there may be a path forward for glenn youngkin if donald trump continues to take on water, as he has been doing with the january 6 hearings and what we're seeing in georgia. also, questions linger about ron desantis. ron desantis, who have been basically called the great white hope i so many in the trump faction, you know, the guy pulls even with kamala harris, despite the fact he has been called the next big thing by the national media on the left and the right and the successor to trump. it will be interesting to see
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if there is a pathway for glenn youngkin. i suspect, despite the fact he is not a fire breather in the vein of ron desantis and trump, i expect of those to fall, he is next in line. >> joining us now is our senior political correspondent. his latest article in the examiner is entitled glenn youngkin expands political operations of 2024 speculation grows. is he thinking about it? >> he is thinking about it. what he is trying to do over the next several months and see how the national theater scene looks. a lot of people say he hasn't even been governor for more than a year. and a normal political environment, we say, we would say who bothers with this after only a year?
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but he only has one term to serve. you can serve multiple terms, but not consecutively. his options are, do nothing after his first four years are up, wait for 2029 to run for governor again, 2028 to run for president. we have learned that timing is everything. you strike when you are hot. voters are not as interested in an expansive political resume the way they might have been in decades past. chris christie, many people feel he missed his moment in 2012. barack obama clearly did not miss his moment in 2008 at just four years after bursting onto the national scene. i don't think there's anything in the timing that as long. i think part of it is, number one, as he fans out across the country to stop for for republicans, does he really taken with the way he took to the campaign trail in virginia? does he want to do it? the second thing is, and this is really interesting, a lot of
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glenn youngkin supporters believe his best path to the presidency through a republican primary is a republican primary in which trump runs. the thinking goes, trump will box out anybody else that wants to be like him, a ron desantis, mike pompeo, anybody else, and then glenn youngkin gets a very fresh contrast and is the new freshfaced leader option for republicans as they pick their next nominee. in a race without donald trump, they can have a trump like candidate and freshfaced, and that it becomes more difficult. >> terry mcauliffe and some pundits try to make out glenn youngkin trump in a fleece vest, but basically to the voters he was mitt romney. to the point you just made, is
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there really room in a primary for glenn youngkin or anyone whose name is not donald trump if trump, in fact, wants to run? is that a spoiler campaign? isn't donald trump really in the driver's seat of this party? >> donald trump only will be in the drivers seat if he wants it. he has the name, of the money, not to mention, his own money. he was president. when you have done the job, that is a big hurdle. you're automatically presidential because you have been president. but a lot of republicans are going to run anyway. there are republicans that have worked for donald trump. not every candidate wants to be in their late 70s when they run for president.
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you have republicans in their late 50s to late 60s to early 70s by the time the campaign starts that will not wait around for 2028 or 2032. they will take a look at an open seat and give it a shot now. even though trump remains very strong with republican voters, a lot of the struggles he has had in these key primaries where he has endorsed candidates that lost have made republicans who want to take his place think it is worth giving it a shot. then you have to question if glenn youngkin could compete with trump. running for president is not the same as running for governor. he could fall flat on his face. when you have republicans coming at you, it is a different ballgame. but he does present, as a contrast, he is a throwback to a 1980s style sunny conservative
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who is still very conservative. if you look at his record of governor and the positions he has taken, they can accuse him of being a moderate, but he is not one. he just has a different way about him. that is why people who like him believe he could be a perfect contrast for trump. but without trump in the race, you are looking at a number of candidates we have discussed who would automatically be the freshfaced, but also provides the populism that so many primary voters like with trump. coming up, the starkest morning from the f.b.i. yet about the national security threat posed by china. we will talk about the possibility that china might be inching closer to invading taiwan. morning joe is coming right back. coming right back.
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with xfinity internet, you get advanced security that helps protect you at home and on the go. you feel so safe, it's as if... i don't know... evander holyfield has your back. i wouldn't click on that. hey, thanks! we got a muffin for ed! all right! you don't need those calories. can we at least split it? nope. advanced security that helps protect your devices in and out of the home. i mean, can i have a bite? only from xfinity. nah. unbeatable internet. made to do anything so you can do anything. . our next guest served as national security adviser and secretary of state under richard
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nixon and gerald ford and has advised many other american presidents on foreign policy. henry kissinger joins us now. the author of the new book entitled "leadership" and it is so good to see you. my father loved you so much. and i know if he was here right now, he would have some jab at you. some comment. >> absolutely. >> you guys had some great sparring moments. >> yes. but i had great affection for him. and we were, i thought we were good friends. >> you were very good friends and we appreciate the letter that you sent to us after he passed. it made me cry. i could feel that you loved him. >> he was a part of my life. we had some disagreements, but
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we had agreement on overall issues. >> well let's talk about the new book. it is really i think so important for so many policymakers to read. you talk about what often seems inevitable actually is the result of strong-willed leadership. and leaders who are not afraid to be divisive. >> a classic example in my book is degall. who arrives in britain from france, having made brigadier general, lowest ranking general. and he arrived without money and without the language and convinced churchill to make him leader of the free french which really didn't exist at that point. and he created to his people that had just been defeated, we
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need a moral regeneration of our society to go back to values that have made us great. >> it is fascinating. your selection of two post-war european leaders. because of the contrast. and it shows that the genius of leadership is understanding what strategy you need to take at the time based on your position. you of course tall about degall, a man considered arrogant by most but you talk about the strategy of will. but by contrast, his counterpart in germany odenhour and he adopted what you call the strategy of humility. explain. >> germany was in chaos and he began by saying we were guilty
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and we were responsible for the war. he assumed responsibility for the actions and he agreed to the partition of germany so that a third of it was put under soviet rule, relying on the fact that he could make the surviving germany so vital that it would become an irresistible attraction for the eastern soviet part of germany. and from this posture of humility towards the allies and it demonstrates he did bring about what he had set out to do. create a vital democratic germany that became part of the world, and after a substantial
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period, absorbed the rest of germany. but he did not do it by asserting influence. he did it by urging his people to go through the suffering of their defeat so that they could emerge as equal partners. >> let me read an excerpt from your book. you talk about these leaders all having a penetrating sense of reality and a powerful vision. also six could be bold. they acted decisively on matters of overriding national importance even when conditions, domestic or international, appeared decidedly unfavorable. faith in the future was to them indispensable. you write, great leadership results from the collision of the intangible and the malleable from which is given and that which is exerted, scope remains for individual effort to deepen
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historical understanding hone strategy and improve character. i wonder, mr. secretary, reading your words and reading this book, how would you judge american leadership in the post cold war world? have our leaders failed or have they risen to the occasion? >> i would say in the immediate post cold war period, the american leaders achieved a great outcome because they brought their people which had been largely isolationist to a conviction and leadership of europe and of the pan atlantic relationship.
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but eventually it is a kind of leadership of global order and the period between 1945 and the late '60s was a great period of american leadership. in the period in which the american preeminence has declined because other countries rose to address the world in which there is multiple leadership and multiple values that we are still going through and has not been made with the same elegance and the same vision. >> all right. book is "leadership", henry kissinger, thank you so much for
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being with us. we greatly appreciate it so much and we'll be right back with more "morning joe." d we'll be rh more "morning joe.
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it is 6:00 on the east coast, 6:00 on the west coast, actually, and 9:00 a.m. out east. as we roll into the fourth hour of "morning joe." you're looking at beautiful los angeles. and let's get right to the breaking news from overseas. british prime minister boris johnson announced just a short time ago that he is resigning. >> it is clearly now the will of the parliamentary conservative party that there should be a new leader of the party and th