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tv   Velshi  MSNBC  July 9, 2022 5:00am-6:00am PDT

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and it's never too late to join them. get unlimited data with 5g included for just $30 a line per month when you get 4 lines. thanks for watching the katie switch to xfinity mobile today. phang show. i will be back tomorrow. velshi is next. back tomorrow. velshi is next today on velshi, a hand at what could be the bombshell become. donald trump's top white house lawyer. it was a marathon session with the january six committee. it was described as a cooperative witness. the testimony was well worth it according to a committee member. we will have the very latest on what we know, what it means, and what is ahead. also, history lesson about
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richard nixon's enemies list. it just might be relevant today as we learn new details about how to the top fbi officials have been publicly targeted by donald trump. they found themselves on the business end of the audits. the end of roe could be followed by a cascade of other personal rights falling away. it looks like that is already beginning to happen. this is how alabama republicans are using the trump stacked supreme court language against vulnerable kids. i will talk to the director of one clinic who is finding a way to fight back against the states new abortion ban. >> good morning. it is saturday, july 9th. we are days away from the resumption of the january six committee is a story public hearings. we are less than 24 hours removed from when the committee's investigators heard testimony from one of the most sought after in vital witnesses
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to date. a person who was not only in the room, but was part of the conversation. nbc news has learned from a source familiar with the first part of the testimony that the former white house counsel pat cipollone was, quote, a cooperative witness during the closed-door appearance. he was willing to answer the panels questions. that testimony was video recorded and transcribed. it has not yet been made public. as i mentioned, pat cipollone, who appeared before the committee informally in april, he is one of the most important figures to appear before the select committee. he offered a critical firsthand direct account of the final days of the insurrection desperate final attempts to stay in power. for starters, the committee is looking for cipollone to cooperate and explain last week's testimony from hutchinson. she is the aide to the former chief of staff, mark meadows. she testified that cipollone helped stop the insurrectionist ex president from physically
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joining the people who would go on to invade the capital in his name. these are the people who chanted to hang mike pence and erected a gallows on site. >> having a private conversation with pat late in the afternoon. it was on the third or fourth. pat was concerned that it would look like we were obstructing justice for obstructing the electoral college count. >> he said something to the effect of, please make sure that we don't go out to the capitol, keep in touch with me, we are going to get charged with every crime imaginable. >> i remember pat saying something to the effect of, we need to do something more, they are literally calling for the vice presidency. mark had responded to the effect of, you heard him, he thinks might deserves it, he does not think they are doing anything wrong. it was something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done, people are going to be dying, the blood is gonna be on your hands.
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>> cipollone has been front and center for other important scenes and testimony. the january six committee wanted to discuss a january 3rd oval office committee. several high officials work together to stop donald trump from installing jeffrey clark. he is an unqualified individual who is a proponent of fake theories. he advocated overturning the election as the active attorney general. jason miller told the special committee that cipollone confronted the lawyer about the undemocratic theory that he peddled to trump. the vice president could stop the electoral count and essentially unilaterally decide the presidential election. do not forget that according to testimony already unearthed by the select committee, when his vice president, mike pence, did not go along with that un-american scheme that donald trump expressed, pence said
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that he deserved to be targeted by the mop. joining me now is a justice department reporter for the new york times. she is also an msnbc contributor. katie, good morning to you. we do not know what happened in that meeting. we. we have heard from one of the committee members that pat cipollone did not contradict prior testimony. i assume they mean cassidy hutchinson's testimony. >> correct. you are right. we do not know exactly what he said. the committee wants to hold this closely. if he contributed new information, if he had something that was explosive, they would want to roll that out in a televised hearing from maximum impact. one of the questions that he was often asked was to cooperate other peoples testimony. they're trying to understand why he stopped specific actions from happening. why were they illegal? what were those actions doing? what would they have resulted in? from the point of view of the top lawyer of the white house, why was that legally wrong?
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keep in mind that a lot of things happened while passive lonely was across council. people were really worried about this. he didn't stop. there were tweets, they were public statements made. there were other lawyers for the president that came out and held press conferences. they said outrageous things about the dominion voting machines. he did not put a stop to those actions. one of the questions, why did he try to stop the things that he did try to stop? >> one of the things that representative said last night to cnn is that he did not contradict this testimony of other witnesses. i think we did learn a few things. we will be rolling them out in the hearings to come. they added that not contradicting is not the same as confirming. he could say that so-and-so was wrong. he did not say that. there were things that he might not be present for. in some cases, he could not recall them with precision. we are parsing someone's characterization of this. we do not have the transcript. i would assume that hutchinson's testimony was so surprising in detailed.
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if pat cipollone had gone in there and said that she is making stuff up, that didn't happen, i didn't say that, they would have characterized that for cnn last night. >> absolutely. he could have said that she misunderstood. she did not really understand the full context. he could've said any number of things. at the same time, her description of this testimony is keeping with someone who is a lawyer. this is someone who is very careful. they are not going to go beyond the actual four corners of the page, anything that he absolutely needs to say in order to answer the question and be truthful. what is also interesting about this testimony depends on what he says, it depends on whether or not this compels other people to come forward. the committee has said that they could continue to roll out hearings later into the summer. i think that is important as well. it shows that the committee feels like the hearings are having an impact. they are having an impact on the public opinion. they're impacting donald trump. they are having an impact because they are compelling more witnesses to come forward. more information is now
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reaching the committee. keep in mind that the idea that more witnesses, more time, that means that the committee feels like it is on its side. >> thank you for your reporting. your justice department reporter for the new york times and msnbc. joining us now is daniel goldman. he served as the majority counsel for the house impeachment inquiry into donald trump. he's the former director of investigations in the house intelligence committee. he is a former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. he is also running for congress in new york's ten districts. dana, thank you for joining us. i want to continue where we left off with katie. the committee seems to be thinking that these hearings are having an impact. that means that they may go a little longer with that. talk to me about that. this was not the plan. they add hearings from time to time. there is some talk that they might at hearings. there could be more in july or even in august. >> yeah. i think that they always planned to have seven hearings. the big difference is that they
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have extended the timeframe for those hearings. what i find very interesting about this, it is not so much they're having different hearings for different schedules, it is the fact that pass if lonely is sitting for a transcribed deposition in the middle of the hearings. to me, that goes to show the impact of the hearing more than anything. pat cipollone had resisted any transcribed interview since he first met informally with the committee in april. after the bombshell testimony of cassidy hutchinson, the pressure amounted on a cipollone to do the right thing finally. he actually had to come in and testify. that shows the impact of these hearings. if they did not do this with such power, with such a compelling way, i don't think that passive loony would have been sitting for an eight
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hour's interview yesterday. >> pat cipollone is in an interesting situation. a lot of the people who are being subpoenaed were asked to testify in front of the committee. they are being held responsible for their contribution. >> passive lonely, references to him all seem to be that he was trying to do the right thing, he is trying to be on the right side of history. that may have have compelled him to come forward. we are also hearing talk and chatter that other republicans, other people who are part of this administration, they have expressed an interest in now talking to the committee. they had not done so otherwise. why would that be true? >> i think that what is coming out from the is really compelling and powerful hearings is what often happened in a investigations. -- they do not know what each
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other has said. they are now starting to see what the committee understands, while the other witnesses have said. it is almost like a sprint to get in first to tell the story on your own terms. that is always more beneficial than being the last one a and having to have more of a target on your back. this is what happens often. criminal investigations, i am very interested to see to what extent any of these witnesses go marching into the department of justice to cooperate with them. would everybody is realizing now is that there was a crime spree as cipollone indicated to cassidy hutchinson. the question now, who is going to have a target on his or her back as a part of the criminal investigation? you don't want to be the last one standing. you don't want to be the first one to cooperate and gave your information. you want to get on the right side of the investigation. that is why cipollone came in.
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i expect that others have realized, oh boy, we better get in. this happened in the ukraine impeachment investigation with gordon. he first came in. he did not recall anything. all the sudden, more and more depositions occurred. we found more and more information and evidence. all the sudden, by the time of the public hearings, he had a very, very different story to tell that he did the first time. i suspect that some of that is going on right now. >> daniel, thanks again for your analysis. as always, good to see you. daniel goldman is the former counsel for the house impeachment inquiry into donald trump. we are going to have more on the historic investigation and what to expect in the days to come. also, bringing brittani home. more details on the battle to get the american pro basketball start a prison in russia and back to america. coming up next, the latest near vesta geisha into the shocking assassination of the former japanese prime minister, shinzo abe. you are watching velshi on msnbc. minister, shinz abe. you are watching velshi on
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continues into the assassination of the former japanese prime minister, shinzo abe. a suspected gunman has admitted to the killing. he remains in police custody. shinzo abe was shot and killed on thursday walk campaigning for a conservative parliamentary candidate in the city of naira. this attack is grazing you questions about security in a country that is entirely unaccustomed to gun violence. nbc news correspondent has more on the story. we have more on the story that you're about to see. they are disturbing to watch. >> across japan, a nation in mourning. mounting questions around the assassination of former prime minister shinzo abe. this morning, a hearse carrying his body drove seven hours to
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tokyo. his family will hold a closed funeral. the assassination was captured in realtime. shinzo abe was giving a campaign speech when there was a shot fired. from another angle, you can see shinzo abe turn briefly. then the second shot. he collapsed as the suspected gunman was tackled. please describe it is a homemade shotgun made of metal pipes and tape. it was seen lying on the street. little is known about the 41-year-old suspect. please say that he admitted that he wanted to kill russians allow be because of a garage. what is not clear is how unarmed man got close enough to shinzo abby to kill him. one of japan's most recognizable figures, shinzo abe was popular and polarizing. he was focused on restoring japan's military power to counter the rising threat from china. he took president obama to hiroshima. he became the first japanese leader to visit pearl harbor. >> prime minister shinzo abe
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was a and credible leader, once in a generation. he was an amazing partner to the united states. both of our countries have lost a great leader and friend. in a country where stringent gun laws make it home to own a firearm, the brazen attack is deeply shocking. >> this mourner said that it is terrifying that something like this could happen. >> that was janice mackie reporting. the funeral for shinzo abe is going to be held over monday and tuesday at the temple of tokyo. the attendance is limited to family and close friends. britney griner has pleaded guilty in russian court to what u.s. officials believe are bogus drug charges. it may be the quickest way to get her out of detention. we will talk about why. that is just ahead. we will talk about why that is just ahead that is just ahead ♪ so different and so new ♪ ♪ was like any other... ♪
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brittney griner has pleaded guilty to drug charges in russia. she faces up to ten years in prison. she has been held by russia since the early days in the war. that was back in february. russia detained her at an airport while she was trying to leave the country. she claimed that hashish vape cartridges were found in her luggage. russia launched a criminal case against her for transportation of drugs. a reporter told people that britney griner admitted that the canisters that russian officials found in her luggage foster trying to leave the country were hers. she brought them to russia by mistake. it should be noted that russia, like north korea, they have a history of arresting and sentencing american citizens on what u.s. officials and experts say are bogus or inflated charges. they could potentially be used as political leverage. the u.s. state department says that britney griner's being, quote, wrongfully detained. her cases being overseen by hostage affairs officials. two more important things to note about britney griner's guilty plea. russia's conviction rate is
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above 97%. that means that it is almost certain that she is going to be found guilty anyways. there was a prisoner swap until after the verdict was reached. speaking of which, russian state media said that the swap would focus on the notorious arms dealer. this man is known as the merchant of death. he is serving a 25-year prison sentence in the united states. russian has tried to get him at least four years. she sent a handwritten letter to biden begging him to do more. she spoke with britney griner's wife. they say the government is working on the release. yesterday, the wife spoke at a rally held by a colleague. >> i believe everywhere that she said to ham. he understood it. he sees her as a person in. he has not forgotten her. that was her biggest cry in her letter. i am grateful and thankful that
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the administration was the first one that bg every voted for. they took the time to see her as a person, they see her in the midst of what she is going for. they were able to speak to me directly and let me know that they are exhausting all the efforts to bring your home. >> joining me now is tom. he is a former resident a legal adviser embassy in moscow. he is a u.s. attorney for the eastern district of new york. thank you for being with us. and try to get to the bottom of this. did britney griner get advice to do this? did she realize that she was gonna be convicted? that is just how it works in the so-called russian criminal justice system. nothing else was going to happen until this case was concluded. >> i think the answer is both. she probably got a very good advice from her lawyers that the conviction rate is about 99%. the russians have made it clear that there is not going to be an exchange until she is convicted. i think she thought that by doing this she is going to get
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convicted. if she acknowledges responsibility for what she did, accept responsibility, she has a better chance of getting a lighter sentence and it accelerates the proceedings that hopefully moves or to the point where she will be released. >> what is the downside of that? you plead guilty to something that is an inflated version of what actually happened. now you are in the russian criminal justice system. you pled guilty and face a ten year sentence. >> the downside, once they got you in custody, once they got possession of these narcotics, the downside is very little. they will say that she admitted it. the fact that she admitted, again, that does not mean that she is not wrongfully detained. that is not require factual innocence. the charges are disproportionate to the offense. she could be being held in intolerable conditions as the state department said. she could still be considered wrongfully detained, a hostage. the u.s. government should use diplomatic efforts to get her out. can't you question, i don't
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think there's much of a downside at all. >> we are talking about the intolerable conditions. one of the things that her wife said is something that we see on tv. she is extremely tall. they put prisoners in cages in court and in print transportation. she is shorter than the actual cage she has been transported or held in. that being said, she said to the russians, hey, i did this, it was inadvertent, it was an accident. the americans have said that she is wrong wrongfully held. the plenary is a way to give the russians and out, give the russians a way to bep lenient. she is being wrongfully convicted. she is not going down the road of being a political prisoner. she is going down the road of, yeah, you are right, i had a staff, don't be too tough on me. >> that is right. there is another category. there is political prisoner, there is being guilty of the offense, there is innocence, in this case, she had possession of these items. the case is being treated in a
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way that is so radically disproportionate to what she did. the conditions are so bad. every indication is that they are detaining her, threatening her with a big sentence. they're using hers bargaining leverage to get a russian out of prison. all of those things make her wrongfully detained within the meaning of u.s. law. she does not have to be factually innocent for that to apply. that is where the case should be categorized. >> what about the four former u.s. marine, paul whelan has been held since 2018, he is serving a 16 year sentence. his name comes up when we talk about britney griner. does this help him? his family is frustrated that moore has not been done for him before this. does this help him? he might get out as well. >> i think that her case is, unfortunate as it is, it has brought attention to the plight of other americans detained in russia. paul got 16 years on what appears to be a completely
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fabricated set up case. there is also mark. he is a 60 year old teacher at the angle american school. he was arrested with 17 grams of medical marijuana at the same airport in august. he was sentenced to 14 years in a russian prison. there are several americans there who need assistance from the u.s. government. i think that her case has brought attention to all of their cases. in a way, it may help the others. tom, thanks for joining us this morning. we appreciate it. tom firestone is a former adviser to u.s. embassy in moscow to former system for the eastern district of new york. coming up, what happens in the leader the free world has an enemies list and the power the u.s. government at his disposal? a slice of mick sony and history that just might be relevant today. disposal? disposal? (young woman) three? (grandmother) did you get his number? (young woman) no, grandma! grandma!! (grandmother) excuse me! (young woman vo) some relata slice of mick sony.
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it was the summer of 1973, america was fresh out of the vietnam war. young loved by donnie austin was not the top of the charts. the young restless was the pinnacle of daytime television, and the senate watergate public hearings were in full swing. the break-in at the democratic national committee headquarters at the watergate office building in washington d.c., one year earlier, had spiraled into a monumental political scandal. top nixon aides had stepped out. the attorney general had appointed a special prosecutor to investigate, and the senate was collecting evidence of its own. one day in june, john dean the
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third, richard nixon's former white house aide, testified before the senate committee that mr. nixon had essentially kept a political hit list. dean revealed nixon's now infamous enemies list. this was not just some list of foes that nixon kept in his head or scribbled on a napkin. the list was legitimized, and as an official memorandum, written by nixon's special assistant george t bell. and the first paragraph here says it all. quote, this memorandum addresses a matter of how we can maximize the fact of our intimates incumbency in dealing with persons known to be active in their opposition to our administration. stated a bit more bluntly, how can we use the available federal machinery to screw our political enemies. someone actually wrote that in a real metal. well class, are there any more questions about this? the list included members of congress, journalist, businessmen, entertainments, and democratic party donors.
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each subject was listed in order of priority, and next to each name was a freewheeling explanation about how and why they became an enemy of the state. it was like nixon's personal burn book. number 12 on the list was sidney david off, a lawyer and nixon critic. the list described him as quote, a first-class s.o.b.. wheeler, dealer, and suspected bag man. which means fund-raiser. the notation next to morton helper, and a former aide to henry cushioned or read quote, a sick and we will shuffle here. cbs news journalist daniel shore, reportedly discovered his name on the list when he was reading it aloud on live tv. he was quote, a real media anomie, and quote. and if i were telling the story in 2018, i'd be building up to another enemies list by another administrators. you might remember when donald trump provoked the former cia director john brennan's security clearance, just because, and he threatened to
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do the same to none other critics. but there is another crucial comparison to be made, but that exposes the way in which donald trump and richard nixon used the levers of the government to go after their political opponents. nixon's enemies ended up on another list, a list that was passed like a note in grade school, and ended up at the irs. in his memoir, johnny mac wolters of official wrote that in 1972, john dame dean gave him the enemies list which had grown to about 200 names. walter says, the white house wanted those on the list quote, investigated and some put in jail. he recalls bringing the list to treasury secretary george p schultz. they both decided to do nothing about it, and the list ended up locked inside an irs safe. nixon was not successful using the irs of a political tool, so the intent was there and his abuse of the irs became the centerpiece of one of the articles of impeachment against him. and this week, as you know, the new york times revealed that
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former fbi director james comey, and the agency's former acting director andrew mccabe, were both picked for extremely rare and invasive tax audits. in 2017 at 153 million people who filed tax materials to the irs, just 5000 were selected for this random audit. one of them happened to be comey. in 2019, mccabe was just one of 8000 americans audited. according to the new york times, a spokesperson for donald trump said he had no knowledge of the audits. but the times also writes, quote, the miniscule chances at the two highest ranking fbi officials who made some of the most politically consequential law enforcement decisions in the generation, being randomly subjected to a detailed scrap of their taxes, presents an extraordinary question. and i might add, to high-ranking fbi officials who had a hand and investigating donald trump. two men who probably, definitely, were high up on
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trump's list of enemies. it's a long list indeed. as msnbc steve bannon put it, history may not be repeating itself, but it sure does rhyme. repeating repeating itself, i mean, "riders" is cool, but "bikers" really cool. -seriously? -denied. can we go back to meeting at the rec center? denied. how do we feel about getting a quote to see if we can save with america's number one motorcycle insurer? should flo stop asking the same question every time? -approved! -[ altered voice ] denied! [ normal voice ] whoa. (woman vo) sailing a great river past extraordinary landscapes into the heart of iconic cities is a journey for the curious traveler, one that many have yet to discover. exploring with viking brings you closer to the world, a serene river voyage on an elegant viking longship.
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high-ranking political enemies of donald trump were both hit with a rare rigorous and supposedly random irs audit during trump's presidency back coincidence. the circumstances surrounding the audits of former fbi director james comey and former acting director andrew mccabe, first reported this week by the new york times. donald trump denied knowing anything about audits, and the irs told the new york times in a statement that the agency's commissioner appointed by trump had no role in selecting candidates for audit. but the irs has now referred to the audits of comey and mccabe to the agency's inspector general, to review their legitimacy. jen me now to discuss this is barbara mcquade, she's a former united states attorney for michigan's eastern district and
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msnbc contributor, and co-host of the country a sisters in law podcast. barbara, good morning. thank you for being with us. >> you, bet thanks for having me, ali. >> so we don't have any evidence at all that this was orchestrated, or planned, or delivered. we can put that aside, we know that we don't know that. so it seems to physically implausible, but it is entirely possible. the question is, if true it doesn't seem all that serious because both of these guys, one ended up getting out some, tax when ida paying a little bit of tax. it didn't seem all that consequential. but it is consequential if a political person is using the levers of government against individuals whom they perceive to be unfriendly or and supportive of that. >> yeah, i don't think we should make the mistake of thinking no harm no foul here. because it was the decision to investigate that is an issue here. regardless of the outcome. they might have found something inappropriate, but they didn't one inspectors general do, as they investigate their own
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agencies for fraud, and dubious. and this is the kind of situation that is perfect for an inspector general. was their decision mean to target them, simply because they were quote, enemies of the former president? and if so, that would be an abuse of that power and the consequences for people who did that. it is a corrupt use of power, could lead to dismissal for the people involved. potentially criminal charges, but it sounds more to me like the kind of internal discipline that would result. >> i was actually surprised by the response from the irs, and second response was to refer to the treasury department inspector general but the first response is highly specific. it was about the commissioner. it said, commissioner reddit is not involved an individual officer taxpayer cases, those are headed back career civil servants. as irs commissioner, he has never been in contact with the white house and that either enforcement or in a federal taxpayer matters. he has been committed to running the irs in an impartial, unbiased manner.
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it could be, to the irs is 75,000 employees. denial of the commission owner was involved is not necessarily closely matter about whether there was political influence. >> oh, absolutely. i mean you could start with the commissioner, we could start elsewhere. it could even be that people were taking what's called, you know, commander activists from the president to initiate this themselves. it didn't come directly from donald trump, for example, but it came from a sympathetic employee within the irs who heard this and said, oh, you know we can pleased their leader? let's mess up these two guys who are his enemies. and then they took it upon him themselves to investigate. if it was done properly, it was done randomly, there's no problem at all. but if you had an email, or memo, or kind of conversation where they selected these two and targeted them simply because of the actions that they took towards the president, then that would be cause for discipline at the very least. >> you know, again, it is not jermaine to the investigation but it is interesting. the irs commissioner supposed
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to be a nonpartisan person. but interestingly, before charles wright was appointed by donald trump, he wrote an op-ed in forbes in 2016 in which he set, is there any legal impediment to trump publicly releasing his tax returns? absolutely. not with any experienced checks lawyer representing trump in an irs audit advise him to release his tax returns during the audit? absolutely not. it's got the similarity to bill barr writing unsolicited letters about how donald trump didn't need to, shouldn't be charged and doesn't need to do anything. so, it all becomes part of the puzzle. >> yeah, it's sort of the addition. look at me, pick me, because i will do your bidding if i am on the inside. and so, it does appear that to be that way. you also heard that statement, with described is the normal process for how and irs commissioner supposed to behave. the job description, and how he's not supposed to. but also keep in mind that the justice department is also not supposed to talk to the white
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house and donald trump ignored that i talked to jeffrey clark when he was a lower level official. so just because that is how it supposed to work, doesn't mean that that is how it did work in this instance. which is why investigation by the inspector general seems appropriate here. >> barbara, thanks very much as always for your analysis. barbara mcquade's former united states attorney for michigan's eastern district. well coming up, how deeply red state is already capitalizing on the supreme court overturning roe to target vulnerable children. is already capitalizin on the supreme court on the supreme court overturning roe ♪ so different and so new ♪ ♪ was like any other... ♪
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by abortion rights with its decision on dobbs v. jackson, it also signaled that it could rollback other anand enumerated rights, like the right to use contraception, same-sex intimacy, and same-sex marriage. these rights are an enumerated, meaning they are not explicitly written out of the constitution. which is unusual, because not many things are written in the constitution. we still believe them to be right. instead, these are rights that have been grounded constitutional protections through past supreme court rulings, decisions, precedents. and the majority decision for the court, justice samuel alito wrote, quote, the inescapable conclusion is that a right to an abortion is not deeply rooted in the nation's history and traditions. and quote. now a new law, picking up where leader left off just days after the court ruled on dobbs, the state of alabama filed a lawsuit seeking to ban gender affirming medical care for
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transgender youth. in its filing, alabama echoed the phrase that justice alito used at least half a dozen times in his opinion, writing that gender transition treatment is not quote, deeply rooted in our history or traditions. it is one of the first convicted decisions to refers the dobbs decision, it comes at a time gets out of state legislators throughout this country ben expressively acting to restrict the rights of lgbtq plus members of the community. this is precisely one of the intended consequences of the court's decision on dobbs, and it in his concurring decision justice clarence thomas went as far as to declare that the quote should quote, we consider some pass precedence. specifically, name in the cases that extend constitutional protections to a same-sex relationships. alabama's -- comes in response to the justice's opinions on jobs and the right the process of reconsidering or un-enumerated rights has begun. joining us now is justice, --
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founding chair of -- and partner at law and. thanks for being. with us >> thanks so much for being with us, and good morning. >> thank you so much for having. me >> i would understand a little bit or that what's the samuel leader in the at state alabama have both latched onto, the causative something been deeply rooted in the nation's history and traditions. it's an idea of what lawyers know as the luck spurred techs but whose history in traditions are we talking about here? >> well, thank you ali for that question. if you have ever been to law school, which maybe i'm not. >> i have. not >> i unfortunate three years there, and we start from the very base of the histories nation that's the traditions of our history very much rooted in white, colonial, nationalism. one of the first things that we learn about in property law is that our system of law is, did not view the indigenous peoples
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as actually having a right to the land. so if we look that far back, and anybody who has been to law school and learned property unconstitutional law, can know that looking way back to the start of our country, women didn't have the right to vote. people were enslaved and forcibly brought here, people were exterminated on a global scale, and they were taken from their homes. so we are looking at the things that are deeply rooted in our histories, nation, and tradition, i don't necessarily know that that is something that we want to go back to. and so this to me, and sounds very much like a dog whistle. and it is actually not a whistle, it is an explicit exportation to do exactly what's they just. it >> so how, i think the sort of flawed thinking, that everything we need to do needs to be something that is, as you said rooted at a time in a space where a lot of people didn't have rights. we have definitely evolved from that place, and i think most people would like to think that
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the supreme court understands that. and take that into consideration, that we enjoy rights and privileges and expect protections today that we did not expect in the 18th century or notably possible even in the 18th century, or the 19th century. we are in the 21st century now. why should this language we governing our laws? >> i don't think that it should, and there is a very large debate within the just constitutional jurisprudence. and i will say that i am not a constitutional law expert, but i do you know my history and, there is a view. this view of originalism has been taught in american law schools, it was top by justice alito i believe when he was a law professor teaching constitutional law. and this idea that we should be interpreting at the constitution as our founding fathers would have, it is an ideological principle that is not necessarily rooted in the present day or in peoples lived experiences. and frankly, i think that this
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is an effort to undermine the supreme court because it has traditionally been, well actually not traditionally, since 1965 and depending on the makeup of the court, it has been an institution of government that has protected the rights of minorities because they understand that, in our democratic system the rights of minorities should not be put up to a popular vote. because by virtue of numbers, we are always going to lose. and so, this i believe is part of a deeper strategy to undermine the progress that we have made in the united states. and frankly, trans bodies are often the facts upon which that derogation of our rights is that. >> so, when we talk about america, there are no trans bodies on the supreme court. there are very for few, in the court system generally is not all that divorce. it is only last november that the first openly lesbian judge was confirmed to serve on the federal circuit court.
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only 14 out of 870 federal judges are openly gay or lesbian. there has never been a transgender nominee. so, people use that term representation matters, but in this particular case, there is truth to it. >> you are exactly right, there is. and there has been a lot of grassroots movements to try to improve the diversity, particularly for trans folks in our bench and in our bar. the national transpire situation formed a few years ago and before covid, they were going to be groups of us that we're going to be swing into the supreme court. because they need to be members of the bar who are chants who do approach things with a lens towards bodily autonomy, and for individual rights. and i think those, those are very key and they're also very important to see yourself represented and i made a statement, a public statement
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at a planned parenthood rally right after the dobbs decision wesley, and i said one of the things we do is we forgive our allies when they are not using the right words or the words that we would hope that they would use. and, that brings to mind the most recent executive order that came out of the biden administration. it just came out yesterday. and i was reading through the preamble and which humped right out of me was women. when we do this. women, their bodily autonomy in the right to choose is under attack. and i thought, who cringe. these are allies, and trans people nonbinary people, and men have uterus, is are not being included. and i don't say this to say that you know, we always need to put the entire acronym lgbtq or name everybody, but there are ways to say, people who can get pregnant, are people who may become pregnant, because not all women can become pregnant and some men have you versus. and trans people get other people pregnant, and so we come
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full circle to trans rights are human rights, and human rights or trans rights and linkedin there is a reproductive freedoms. because they all come back to the same. i think in america, and i think the polling numbers show this, we believe that we should be able to make choices. about our bodies, and about our families. and this line as decisions from jobs, and some of the other cases that have come out of the port that are eroding, the things that we as americans have taken for granted that no prayer in schools, that we would be able to access abortion related care, they are being undermined at alarming rates. and this is starting both nationally, and it is also happening locally. we are seeing it at school boards where there are people who mean that even live in the communities who are saying, we should be teaching kids about their own bodies, or how to exercise autonomy. and frankly, as a parent, that is scary to me. because if we are limiting peoples reproductive choice, and we are limiting their


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