tv The January 6th Hearings The House Investigates MSNBC July 12, 2022 9:00pm-11:00pm PDT
american democracy, our precious inheritance. congressman jamie raskin in his closing remarks, and before i sign off, there is a quick reminder, a lot of people got distracted today by donald trump, and elon musk, and the big fight they got in, calling one another losers. don't get distracted by that. focus on the fact that the former guy was talked about all day today, and possibly, tied to january 6th, pushing the big lie, unwilling to accept a peaceful transfer of power, and potentially inciting major violence. and asked for elon musk, think more about twitter, the company he may or may not take over, and a whole lot of very, very dangerous stuff that still continues to be pushed on that platform, pushed illegally. don't get distracted. focus on that, not the sideshow. and on that note, i wish you all a very good hopefully very safe night. from all of our colleagues
across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with us. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. wit us i will the january six investigation, day seven. >> american carnage turned a excellent prophecy on what his rage would visit to our people. >> the view from inside the oval office told for the first time by trump's own white house counsel. >> i walked in, i saw sydney powell sitting there. i was not happy to see the people in the oval office. overstock person. i looked at him and said who are you? i don't think any of these people were providing the present with good advice. i didn't understand how they got in. >> alleged conspirators invited into the white house by the president with bizarre results. >> can the federal government seize voting machines?
it's a terrible idea. >> -- come over back down -- >> pat cipollone if he had the authority to make me special counsel and he said yes. >> a mob summoned by the president to come not just to the national capitol setting, but to the u.s. capitol building. >> we are going to be only saved by millions of americans moving to washington, occupying the entire area, if necessary storming right into the capitol. >> there's gonna be a red wedding going down january six. >> so why did you decide to march to the capitol? >> basically, the president got everybody riled up and told everybody to come down, so we basically just followed what he said. >> a jarring closing revelation from the investigators. >> after our last hearing, president trump tried to call a witness in our investigation, a
witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. this committee has supplied that information to the department of justice. >> tonight, one of the committee members who led today 's hearing, congressman jamie raskin of maryland. >> plus nicole wallace, lawrence o'donnell, stephanie ruhle, alex wagner, joy reid, chris hayes all here for our primetime recap of the seventh hearing from the january 6th investigation. >> good evening, i'm rachel maddow here at msnbc headquarters along the great joy reid, chris hayes, lawrence o'donnell nicole wallace. very happy to be with you this evening. i'll be joined by many colleagues. over the course of tonight's coverage, we are all here together, not because this is some sort of weird cable news
version of a all-star game or a pro bowl, but this is our primetime recap of the sprawling and sometimes shocking hearing today of the january 6th commission. today's hearing was led by two members of congress, stephanie murphy of florida and jamie raskin of maryland. congressman raskin will be our guest tonight not too long from now. but before we speak with him about today's revelations from the investigation, we are first going to recap what those revelations were. we are conscious of the historic implications of this hearing. >> the watergate hearings which were equally historic and consequential for the country. they were equally inconvenient to watch, live as they happened, the watergate hearings, like today's january six hearing, were held in the middle of the workday. that is just not convenient for most americans, particularly when the hearings are hours long like today's was. our predecessors in the news
business either re-aired or re-capped watergate hearings every night in primetime when that investigation was underway in 1973. we know now looking back at history that that was a good decision by news organizations back then. it was a service to the country at the time in a -- lot, so we here at msnbc have committed to do the same for every daytime hearing from the january 6th investigations. whether or not you are able to watch these hearings live let's go. here are the main revelations from the investigators. we will go through them one by one. let's start with what i think may be the two most explosive points that were made today. both of them brand-new and both very specific. the first is how the mob of trump supporters ended up at the u.s. capitol building on january 6th. remember the rally was not at the u.s. capitol building. the rally was just outside the white house, quite a long walk actually from the u.s. capitol building. today the january 6th investigators revealed for the first time that former president trump planned in advance that he would tell the crowd at his rally to march to the u.s. capitol building where congress was to be in session
counting the electoral votes. we had heard testimony at previous hearings that trump wanted the crowd to march to the capitol, that he tried, intended to go there alongside them himself. but today for the first time they showed evidence that from previously unseen texts and emails that proved that trump secretly planned in advance that he would tell the crowd to march to the capitol building. it was supposed to be a secret, it was supposed to be closely held among him and january 6th organizers, so that nobody else in the government could stop the plan, so that it couldn't be in one person's words'sabotaged'. so that no federal agencies would be able to intervene, to stop what he was planning. >> after her january 2nd call with mr. meadows, katrina pierson sent an email to fellow rally organizers. she wrote, potus expectations are to have something instant
intimate at the ellipse and call on everyone to march to the capitol. the president's own documents suggest that the president had decided to call on his supporters to go to the capitol on january 6th, but that he chose not to widely announce it until his speech on the ellipse that morning. this is the january 4th text message from a rally organizer to mike lindell, the my pillow ceo. this says'this stays between us after the ellipse'. potus is going to have us march there/the capital. it cannot get out about about the second stage, because people will try to set up another and sabotage it. it can also not get out about the march because i will be in trouble with the national park service and all the agencies. potus is just going to call for it, quote unexpectedly. and then on the morning of january 5th, ali alexander,
whose firebranc concerned katrina pierson, sent a similar text to a conservative journalist. mr. alexander said, tomorrow, ellipse then u.s. capitol. trump is supposed to order us to the capitol at the end of his speech but we will see. >> ellipse, then u.s. capitol. so revealed today by the january six investigation, it was the plan all along for trump to say to the crowd that he was rallying just outside the white house. it was the plan all along for him to tell them unexpectedly that they should leave that rally's site and walk to the congress. walk to the u.s. capitol building across town where congress was meeting to count the electoral votes. that had not been put in the rally permit application, that i'm not been something that was discussed in the upper echelons or agencies at all, to make a movement like that safe, or anything approaching safe, it was going to be a surprise. the rally organizers were told
people that mike lindell,, the my pillow guy were told that these were the presidents secret plans. but the actual government was not told. because they knew in advance that if those agencies had a word out they would try to stop it. so this was a private plant among the president and the people he was using to summon the crowds to washington. one that needed to be kept secret from the government because of course what it was was a plan for a physical overthrow of the government. so that was news today. as we will see in a moment the investigators revealed that while trump's speech writers put one reference to go to the capitol building in his written speech for the morning of january 6th, trump ad libbed it three extra times in his speech that morning to make sure it was getting through loud and clear. that he wanted the mob to go physically get congress. today in live witness testimony, the committee showed how that worked in practice, what it meant that day in very practical terms that trump supporters who thought they
were being summoned to the capitol for a trump rally at the ellipse outside the white house soon found themselves somewhere else. soon found themselves directed by president trump that they should leave the white house area, leave the ellipse and instead walk cross town and go to the u.s. capitol building. this was testimony today by's stephen ayers who did help storm the capital even though he didn't intend to in advance. he was criminally charged for his role in january 6th. >> so this committee has reviewed thousands of hours of surveillance footage of january 6th. doing this review, we identified you entering the capital as we see in this video. mr. ayers, why did you decide to come to washington on january 6th? >> for me personally, you know, i was, you know pretty hard-core into the social media. facebook, twitter, instagram.
i followed president trump -- you know on all the websites. you know - he basically put out -- you know come to stop the steal rally. i felt like i needed to be down here. >> mr. ayers, when you enter the capitol last, or did you believe that the election had been stolen? >> at that time, yeah. everything i was seeing online, i definitely believed that that was exactly the case. >> and when you heard from president trump that the election was stolen, how did that make you feel? >> i was very upset as were most of his supporters. you know, that's basically what got me to come down. >> we've also talked about today in previous hearings the extent to which the president himself was told that the
election hadn't been stolen by his justice department, by his white house by his campaign, how it had not been stolen. would it have been made a difference to you to know that president trump himself had no evidence of widespread fraud. ? >> oh definitely. who knows i may not have come down. here. >> mr. ayers, you were in that crowd to the rally in the crowd marched to the capitol. when you arrived on the lips that morning, we planning to go to the capitol? >> no we didn't actually plan to go down there. we went basically to see the stop the steal rally that was it. >> so why did you decide to march to the capitol? >> basically, the president got everybody riled up and had everybody head on down, so we were just following what he said. >> after the presidents speech, as you are marching out of the capitol, how did you feel? >> i'm angry, you know after everything that was basically
said in the speech. you know, a lot of the stuff he said he already put on tweets, have already seen heard it before. so i was already worked up, and so are most of the people there. >> so as you started marching, did you think there was still a chance that the election would be overturned? >> yeah at that time i did. everybody was kind of like in the hope that vice president pence was not going to certify the election, that hope was there. >> did you think the president would be marching with you? >> yeah. i think everybody thought he would be coming down. he said in his speech, kind of like he would be there with us, so i mean, i believed it. >> i understand. we know that you illegally entered the capitol that afternoon and then left the
capitol area later on. what made you decide to leave? >> basically, when president trump put his tweet out, we literally left right after it come out. to me, if he would've done that earlier in the day, 1:30, maybe we wouldn't be in this bad of a situation maybe. >> thank you. mister chairman i yield back. >> we left when trump put out his tweet telling us to leave. if he had done that earlier in the day, maybe 1:30 pm instead of after 4 pm, maybe we wouldn't be in this bad situation. today stephen ayers one of the live witnesses at this hearing. at one point in the hearing room, mr. ayers approached members of the capitol police in d. c. metropolitan police who were injured during january six or at the hearing today just watch the proceedings. mr. ayers spoke to each of them
and reportedly apologized to them about his role in the capitol attack. i'm not sure the apologies from him went over well with all of those officers, buddy detective personally. that testimony from him about being there that day, responding to president trump's call. responding to president trump's call to go to the capitol building even though he hadn't planned to do it at all. as later testimony about his regret from his actions about participating in the capitol attack has effectively ruined his life. it's all very human, very effective on a personal level but i will say for the purposes of the committee's investigation, and the very question of the question of culpability of the trump and the crimes that were committed, mr. ayers testimony is more than human, it closes a loop on an important legal question on whether trump was controlling the crowd on that day. he truly was in a very granular sense. this wasn't some peaceful protests that got out of hand,
that got beyond him. this was a series of actions that were planned in advance and directed personally by the president and the crowd responded to him as if he were machine and yelled the rain to control that drove it. he said, go. they went. he said leave, they left. >> the medieval style combat with our police, the occupation of the building, this was going on for several hours until the president issued at 4:17, the tweet, i believe, that included a video telling people to go home. did you see that? and did that have any effect on what you were doing? >> while we were there, as soon as that come out, everybody started talking about it. and it seemed like it's started to disperse, you know, some of the crowd, obviously, you know, once we got back to the hotel room, we were saying that it was still going on. but it definitely, dispersed a lot of the crowd. >> and did you leave at that
point? >> yeah, we did. we left. >> so, in other words, that was the key moment, when you decided to leave, when president trump told people to go home. >> yeah, we left right when that come out. >> that evidence about trump being in control of the crowd, being responsible for its movement and behavior, that was a main theme today. and it fit with a broader, and just ripping argument, from the investigations vice chair, congresswoman liz cheney, at the outset of the hearing today, when she argued that the president is the one who did it. and no matter what defenses are being mounted on his behalf, the fact that he did it, is something that can't be pawned off on anyone else. >> the argument seems to be, president trump was manipulated by others outside the administration. that he was persuaded to ignore his closest advisers, and that he was incapable of telling right from wrong. this new strategy is to try to blame only john eastman, or
sydney powell, or congressman scott perry, or others, and not president trump. in this version, the president was, quote, poorly served by these outside advisers. the strategy is to blame people his advisers called, quote, the crazies, for what donald trump did. this, of course, is nonsense. president trump is a 76 year old man. he is not an impressionable child. just like everyone else in our country, he is responsible for his own actions and his own choices. as our investigation has shown, donald trump had access to more detailed and specific information, showing that the election was not actually stolen, than almost any other american. and he was told this over and over again. no rational or sane man in his position could disregard that information, and reach the opposite conclusion.
and donald trump cannot escape responsibility by being willfully blind. nor can any argument of any kind excuse president trump's behavior during the violent attack on january 6th. >> there you say, 76 year old man, not an impressionable child. you will know when your insult and critique is living, when the general thrust of it is, you are an adult. vice chair, liz cheney, landing a few, as she is want to do. before we take a break, here, though, i just wanna get to one more point, a real bombshell, and a stand-alone point, dropped by liz cheney right at the end of the hearing. she knows how to make an impression. watch. >> one more item. after our last hearing, president trump tried to call a witness in our investigation, a
witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. that person declined to answer or respond to president trump's call, and instead, alerted their lawyer to the call. their lawyer alerted us. and this committee has supplied that information to the department of justice. let me say, one more time, we will take any effort to influence witness testimony very seriously. thank you, mister chairman. i yield back. >> thank you, mister chairman. i yield back, which is in congress ease, dropping the microphone. here with my colleagues, lawrence o'donnell, nicole wallace, joy reid, chris hayes. obviously, that sort of is still scratching the surface. today was a long hearing with a lot of different points. i think today's hearing did feel like it was sprawling. we've got to a lot of different things, but this point about trump having secretly planned to direct people to the capitol,
without telling the authorities, without telling the agencies of the government, that seems to me to be a very important new point. >> and i think it's both a new point, and it's also in line with a bunch of other new revelations they have surfaced, which point to consciousness of guilt, right? the fact they were scheming, the fact they are having meetings and not telling other people, the fact that the secret electors were told not to tell other people, were told not to text about it, like they have revealed, time and time again -- again because there was this weird degree to which word was getting public, but rudy giuliani was running around the country, going public. you can almost think, they didn't realize they had the heights of this? but that's not the case. they did have the height on, and they knew it. >> and they didn't write it. >> again, this speaks to the fact that there is, there really was consciousness of guilt. >> the other thing i thought that you did a great job laying this out, the witnesses, just very clear now, the crowd was the weapon. >> yeah.
>> he had nothing left at that point. you know he doesn't have control the dod. you know that he can't send in the national guard. he cannot do a traditional coup. the courts didn't work. he's hoping to get through congress, but all is left is the weapon, and it's wielded like a weapon, and everyone around the partners that the proud boys go early, but they know they need backup. trump goes in at the ellipse, and he hurls it, like you know, a slingshot. and at the capitol, like, the crowd is the weapon. that is crystal clear now after the hearing. >> there is something crazy. i mean, the testimony about the otr builds on cassidy hutchinson testimony, and we talked about it together afterward, where liz cheney has her go through almost a boring explanation of what is everyone doing in the planned movement of an otr? and it wasn't really clear what she was going at. but it's ultimately this. >> right, it's like president biden stops to think it's -- president obama and michelle, sometimes on their own vacation will stop by, something, it's not on the schedule, you don't
have to lock down the venue they're going to. they're gonna put mags in other countries, the fact that an otr was leaked to the rally organizers is a massive -- i mean, on top of being central to the coup, it's a massive, operational security violation. and the fact that he was communicating with the rally organizers about, it's not an otr anymore. so, really illuminates the parallel of government that he was laying out. of course, he wasn't sitting on top of the nation's military. he was the commander-in-chief of this other thing. >> he was running an operation against the u.s. government. and so, the u.s. government had to be kept in the dark about it. >> and then, there is the stephen ayers testimony, which closes the trump involvement. i mean, trump, we now know was planning to say, go to the capitol. let's keep it a secret. i'm gonna say, we're gonna go to the capitol. so, there is another moment where trump has another decision to make, which there
might not have felt like a decision. and as he's on that stage on the ellipse, and they're starting to tell him, they have weapons, that crowd has extremely dangerous weapons. and they are choosing not to come through our weapons detectors, because they don't want to surrender their weapons. so, trump now has new knowledge that they have weapons. he has a choice to make, do i stick with my original plan of sending them to the capital, now that i know that they have deadly weapons? yeah, i guess i would. so, he does that, right? and then, he is clearly the guy now established through, you know, these hearings, who has ordered a weapon equipped crowd to go to the capitol. the weapons have a purpose. and then, stephen ayers comes and tells you, he's the guy who told us to leave. that testimony that you just showed about ayers saying we left because he told us to leave sets us up for the next hearing, in which you are gonna see every single minute donald trump did not tell them to leave. and they will sink that, no
doubt, with this is the moment this police officer suffered a concussion. and that's the minute when donald trump didn't act. it will all be there. one of those, stunning things that happened, that sometimes does in hearing rooms after the testimonies are over, is, you showed some of it, but stephen ayers, going over to the capitol police officers, and he chose to do this. he chose to go over, and shake their hands. there is a stunning photograph a still that's out there now, of harry dunn, sitting there in uniform, with a handshake. and the person who tweeted the photograph said, apology offered an apology, accepted. harry dunn took that photograph. re-tweeted it, and said, apology offered. >> that's right. >> he is actually gonna join us at 10:00 tonight. we will find out if that's an apology accepted by harry dunn. >> the thing is to connect, to your point to the points that you've all been making, you know, i have had this like obsessive question in my mind, what happened between the hour
and 42 minutes, after the loonies all leave, right? you have this amazing, cassidy hutchinson took this picture of giuliani, escorted out by mark meadows, to make sure he didn't double back, and go back to the residence like, he wanted him out, out. so, they're all gone. trump is now alone for an hour 42 minutes. he now knows that they're not seizing the election machines, that ain't happening. he now understands that he's already lost all these legal suits. right, the sydney powell option didn't work. he is now thinking, i'm out of options. i'm out of options to stay in power. who does he call, if anyone? because this isn't some logistical genius. i mean, the apprentice was produced by other people. he said, this isn't like a smart guy that's coming up with logistical plans. i want to know where, what happens in that mental trajectory in donald trump's mind, between okay, the legal strategy didn't work, all these other strategies and aren't
working, and they're telling me doing it. i'm gonna trip keep trying with pence. but i'm gonna use this crowd. and it's a two layer weapon. it's the actual, just massive, masses of people, the airs, the people who just do what donald trump said. but then, there are the knowledgeable people, the oath keepers, the proud boys, the people who are doing logistics, the people who figured out where the speaker's lounge is. the people who figured out that they need to block the tunnels. the people who were just screaming, we just found from ben collins, it's like a thing in far right-wing circles. who understood, means literally bring a rope? i mean, i want to know who donald trump talk to, after midnight? because you know, he sets up in just cost people -- >> we are gonna get to some of that, because we do get this new part of the timeline, right? so in part of that january 6th, as they said, the next hearing, like lawrence was just describing, is gonna be minute by minute on january 6. and today, starting december, mid december, when the electors
cast their votes. and so, it was over. and trump was told by an amazing array of people, including we're about to see, members of his family, that it was over. and then, he decided he needed this plan b. so that is next. today's hearing also revealed the extent to its people in trump's orbit including his family, knew that it was over in mid december, before he started on this other course. that's all ahead. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> it makes me mad because, i was hanging on every word he was saying. everything he was putting out, i was following. i mean, if i was doing it, hundreds or thousands or millions of people are doing it, or maybe still doing it, the thing is, i consider myself a family man. and i love my country. i don't think any one man is bigger than either one of those. i think that's what needs to be taken, you know, people dive into the politics, and for me, i felt like i had, you, know a
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mr. cipollone, did you believe that the president should concede once he made the determination based on the investigations that you credited the doj did? did you inform the president that he should concede the election loss after the election? >> well again, i was the white house counsel. some of those decisions are political. so to the extent that - if your question is did i think he should concede the election at a point in time? yes i did. i believe leader mcconnell went on the floor of the senate in
mid-december basically said that that would be in line with my thinking on these things. >> december 20 or we understand there were discussions with the president about possibly conceding election. specifically, we understand that mark meadows assured you and attorney general barr that the president would eventually agree to a peaceful transfer of power. do you remember mr. meadows making such a representation? >> are you saying -- without getting into that meeting, i will say that that is a statement and a sentiment that i heard from mark meadows. >> that is a statement and a sentiment that i heard from mark meadows, that the president should agree to a graceful exit. welcome back to our primetime recap of the january six hearing. referred or for the first time from the white house counsel pat cipollone, who revealed to himself that he was known that the election was not stolen, that he believed former president trump should've conceded the election since he lost it.
the committee also revealed that lots of senior people in the white house presidents orbit, including the presidents own daughter ivanka and members of the president's cabinet, all also knew that it was over. that it was over after the electors counted the votes on december 14th. >> so i put a call into the president, unlike all on the 13th, we spoke on the 14th and which i conveyed to him that i thought that it was time for him to acknowledge that president biden had prevailed in the election. but i communicated to the president that when this legal process is exhausted, and when they electors had voted, that that was the point when it's expected when i told him i once was legal processes were run
and fraud had not been established, that unfortunately -- >> december 14th was the day that the state certified the votes and sent them to congress and in my view that was the end of the matter. i didn't say -- i thought that this would lead inexorably to a new administration. >> i told him that my personal viewpoint was that the electoral college had met which is the system that our country is set under to elect a president and vice president and i believe at that point that the means for him to pursue litigation was probably closed. >> do you recall what his response to that was? >> he disagreed. >> i want to clarify that that's my previous question.
it was your view then or was it your view that the efforts to overturn the election should've stopped once the litigation was complete? >> in my view, upon completion of litigation was when i began to plan for life after the administration. >> and this is what ivanka trump told us. >> december 14th was the day on which the electoral college met when these electors around the country met and cast the electoral votes with the popular vote consistent with the popular vote in each state. and the public can -- president biden had obtained a prerequisite number of electors. was that an important day for you. did that affect your planning or realization as to whether or not there was going to be an end of this administration? >> i think so. i think it was my sentiment probably as well.
>> ivanka trump, the presidents adult daughter, was also my sentiment that it was all over in december. once the electors had cast their votes, i think it was my sentiment probably prior as well. pat cipollone's testimony, the white house counsel's testimony that white house chief of staff mark meadows was among those who knew it was over. that was a really interesting point, it's worth pausing on that for a second. because we heard from cipollone, one of the things he said, the white house chief of staff was with me on this. this assertion was also bolstered by attorney general bill barr, and pat cipollone both said in testimony, aired today, that they heard from the chief of staff mark meadows that he knew trump had lost, that he knew trump would have to find a way to concede. then this last thing i will play for a second.
this past mostly an remarked on today given all the other revelations from the committee. but when it comes to mark meadows, it seems very important. when it comes to mark meadows, we also today got a brand-new brand-new previouslyhear assertion from cassidy hutchinson about what mark meadows did around this time and why he did it. we don't know why he held this piece of cassidy hutchinson testimony until today. we've heard so much from her in previous hearings, but it is possible that the investigators from the january six committee held this back until today because it's so bad for mark meadows, because they're continuing a legal battle with mark meadows to try to get him to testify before their investigation. this clip about mark meadows today points to mark meadows's state of mind, his intentions behind what he was doing in a way that might prove to be a problem for him if he ever faces criminal charges in this matter. >> during this period, he --
i perceived his goal with all of this to keep trump in office. you know, he had very seriously deeply considered that allegations of voter fraud, but when he began acknowledging that maybe there wasn't enough voter fraud to overturn the election, and i witnessed him start to explore potential constitutional loopholes more extensively which were connected to john eastman's theory. >> the white house chief of staff mark meadows seriously deeply consider allegations, basically found there was nothing to them, and instead he turned to trying to find constitutional loopholes to keep trump in power anyway. that is, i know he lost, i am going to try to keep him in power anyway, knowing that he lost. that moment was not a criminal
referral of mark meadows to the justice department, but the investigators are handing the justice department basically both of the lego pieces they would need to build a very simple stable criminal case against. >> this ties him toward a federal judge has already called likely felony crimes committed by trump. and we know that eastman preferred the pieces of the lego structure. >> can you explain how the chief of staff obviously the most loyal person to the president, and in many ways the closest person. but i cannot explain mark meadows in my own mind. why is this guy the garden-variety birther tea party congressman from north carolina? he's not a ted cruz sort of styles himself as a 1776 revolutionary? he's just some guy who becomes chief of staff. why is he willing to risk jail? he got 1 million dollars from
his pac from the slush fund. 1 million dollars ain't worth lying for the president of the united states, and fomenting his coup. >> he is also different from every other chief of staff right? john kelly couldn't hide his discussed with trump. and reince priebus couldn't get out of the oval office fast enough. without breaking speed records in the west wing. what meadows does is he breaks bad -- somewhere between all the fraud were bill barr's words bullshit let's stay in power for more years meadows breaks bad. >> i've said this before at this very table but i have to say it again. there is this weird suspension of disbelief guilelessness to all of this. to eugene scalia, usually a pretty smart guy, secretary of labor like, he is like very, well i told him on december 14th that was the end of the process. it's all garbage! it's all made up! [laughs] please call on me, everybody
constantly having to indulge this -- on december 14th -- it was done, he lost! a ludicrous set of all these people -- bill barr, eugene scalia taking it seriously, for cassidy hutchinson just saying once the fraud thing didn't work out -- it's about keeping him in office. obviously! didn't they have to know? >> there were never real arguments. >> and whenever real arguments are real factual predicaments to all of this. we've had so much testimony, i think it's all truthful testimony to the mountains of labor that is churning for the five weeks afterwards. >> it's not a real argument, there's not a factual basis for him staying in power, it's a pretext. just to see if they can help him support the pretext. >> that's my question. were they -- what did they tell themselves they were doing about all these
pretextual efforts? >> they were letting trump learn the trump way which is i'm not gonna be the one who tells him he's crazy. i'm going to let the electoral college tell him that. i think it is entirely conceivable that people like scalia, bill barr, people who had been around government, people like me were watching this thing and thinking, i don't know what trump believes or doesn't believe, but i know at the electoral college is gonna do, so it doesn't matter. and i know biden is going to be president, i know all of this. so i don't care when he figures this out or doesn't figure it out. i'm not gonna be the one who goes in and burns myself up. and if i'm mark meadows and i want to make money from donald trump when he's not president, which is exactly what mark meadows wants, i'm not gonna be the bad news guy. i'm not gonna let the process i will let the process show this guy with a bad news is. and then you get this to this constitutional loopholes moment. cassidy hutchison mentioned
that. that was inconceivable to bill barr, inconceivable to pat cipollone, inconceivable to me, there was no constitutional loophole. they thought there wasn't that existed on january six. when the constitutional loopholes they were going for on january six with the law they're going for as a tool, was to literally stop it. if they don't do it on january 6th -- . well there isn't a constitution. then can we get it thrown in to the house of representatives and if we get it thrown into the house of representatives, then donald trump can win a vote in the house. >> and so, to answer nichols question, the answer is, who's the guy operating -- he thought, constitution loop will do it that way. that's what it takes in terms of the facility with your citizenship. >> all right, in a previous january 6th hearing, the investigators sprung the news on us, that trump hasn't just come up with some scheme to maybe overthrow the justice
department, and installing new attorney general. he just thought about. he had argued for. he had actually tried to do it. today, we've got another one of those -- something that he didn't just argue about. he wasn't just trying to persuade people about. he apparently actually tried to do it, and we did not know it before today. that is next. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> i don't think sydney powell would say that, i thought it was a good idea to appoint or special counsel. i was vehemently opposed. i don't think she should be appointed to anything. appointed to anything. like pulsing, electric shocks, what is this nightmare? it's how some people describe... shingles. a painful, blistering rash
revealed that many of the people around former president trump including his white house chief of staff and his daughter ivanka, they all considered the 2020 election to be over. they thought it was a settled matter as of december 14th, the day the electoral college cast their votes. on that point of the thing being over though, and wildly acknowledge for it to be over and december 14th when the electoral college cast the votes, the investigators showed us what happened would happen after december 14th. as soon as people cast the votes, everybody trump's orbit including his family thought it was over. the investigators then showed us how trump needed a plan b, and how plan b evolved from that point forward. the whole white house trump staff and cabinet decided was over by december 14th, by december 16th he had found some random outsiders who would give him a new plan to stay in
power. one that they apparently cooked up over a meal at his washington, d. c. hotel. >> on the evening of december 18th, 2020, sydney powell, general michael flynn and others entered the white house for an unplanned meeting with the president, the meeting that will last multiple hours and become hot blooded and contentious. the executive order behind me on the screen was drafted on december the 16th, just two days after the electoral college vote by several of the presidents outside advisers overall luncheon at the trump international hotel. as you can see here, this proposed order directs the secretary of defense to seize voting machines quote, effective immediately. it goes even further than that. under the order, president trump would appoint a special counsel with the power to seize machines and then charged people with crimes with all resources necessary to carry
out their duties. the specific plan was to name sydney powell as special counsel, the trump lawyer who had spent the postelection period making outlandish claims about venezuelan and chinese interference in the election among others. here's what white house counsel pat cipollone had to say about sydney pointers qualifications to take on such expensive authority. >> i don't think sydney powell would say that i thought it was a good idea, i was vehemently opposed. >> sydney powell told the president that these steps were justified because of her evidence of foreign interference in the 2020 election. however as we have seen,
trump's allies had no such evidence and of course no legal authority for the federal government to seize state voting machines. here is mr. cipollone again denouncing sydney powell's terrible idea. >> there was a real question in my mind and a real concern, you know particularly after the attorney general had reached the conclusion that there wasn't sufficient election fraud to chinese the outcome of the election. one other people kept suggesting that there was, the answer is what is it? at some point, you have to put up or shut up. that was my view. >> why was this bad for the country? >> how the federal government seize voting machines? it's a terrible idea. that's not how we do things in the united states -- no legal authority to do that. there is a way to contest elections, you know that happens all the time, but the idea that the federal government could come in and sees election machines. i don't understand why we even
have to tell you that's a bad idea, it's a terrible thing. >> do i need to spell this out? seizing voting machines. that was the kind of wall that trump ran into with trying to seize voting machines. you recall even before this, he told the justice department under bill barr and he should seize voting machines, a debartolo no. under this fake a draft executive order, who's gonna be the pentagon, the defense department, those galaxies devouring machines. he saw the white house counsel 's reaction to that idea there. but seizing the voting machines
wasn't the only big, terrible idea that draft executive order. the other one would've had trump order sydney powell put her in power of charging people with crimes and investigating all the fraud which she attributed to dead communists and venezuela. that is something we learned today. that's something he was not only advised to do in this draft executive order, something he not only thought about, doing something not only kicked around with the crazies in the white house, he actually tried to do it. he actually did it. certain accounts of this meeting investigators said today indicate that president trump actually granted miss powell security clearance and appointed her to the somewhat well-defined position of special counsel. >> if we asked pat cipollone if he had authority to name special counsel. and then we asked him if he had the authority to give me security clearance -- and then president said okay, i'm naming her the, and i'm giving her security clearance,
and then shortly before we left, that's when cipollone and or herschmann, whoever the other man was, said you can name her whatever you want to name her and no one's going to pay any attention to it. >> how did the president respond to that? >> something like, you see would ideal, with ideal with this all the time. >> over the ensuing days no further steps were taken to a point sydney powell but there is some ambiguity about what the president actually said it during the meeting. here's how pat cipollone described it. >> i don't know what her understanding of whether she had been appointed, or whether she had not been appointed. in my view she had not been appointed to anything, and ultimately was not -- there had to be other steps taken. that was my view when i left the meeting. she may have had a different view, and others may have had a different view. >> were any steps taken including the president himself taken her she had been appointed?
>> again, i'm not gonna get into what the president said in the meeting. my recollection is, you're not appointed until steps are taken get the paperwork done and when i left the meeting, i guess when i'm trying to say is, i'm not gonna get into what the president said -- >> mr. cipollone, when the matter over the next several days, was it your understanding that sydney powell was still seeking unemployment that she was asserting that she had been appointed by the president at the december 18 meeting? >> >> >> well you mentioned, it probably both. she may have been of the view that she had avoided a, seeking
to get that done. and, that she should be involved. >> he did it. this is echoing for you, because in a previous january 6th hearing, we did learn the trump tried to fire the attorney general, and appoint this guy, jeff clark, to take over the justice department. he did not just think about doing it, or argue for, it he did at, in white house call logs. jeffrey clark, starting to be described as the acting attorney general, because trump to try to install him. now, we learned there's another. trump did it as well, but when it comes to sydney powell. previously, we talked about making her special counsel, who had been suggested to him. now, he ordered that she would have the job of special counsel, and the only reason it didn't come to pass, it wasn't effectuated in our lives, is because white house officials, apparently, refused to act on his order. which is an astonishing thing, in the history of the u.s.
presidency. but, it's only one that we learned about today. there is more, stay with us. learned about today. therone user asked, is the 60-d? is that why trump wants everyone there? another asserted, trump just told us all to come armed. effing a, this is happening. the third took it even further. it will be wild means, we need volunteers for the firing squad. firing squad.
>> welcome back to our primetime recap of the january 6th hearing, held in washington today. today, the investigator stayed up for the country the best account they could come up with all of what appears to have been a categorically insane meeting. late night at the white house, on december 18th. the context say december 18th, four days after the electors had cast their votes, so legally the election was over. then, this happened. >> that meeting at the white house on the evening of december 18th, that night, a group showed up at the white house, including sydney powell, retired lieutenant general, michael flynn, and former overstocked outcomes ceo, patrick byrne.
after gaining access to the building from the junior white house staffer, the group made their way to the oval office. they were able to speak with the president by himself, for sometime, until white house officials learned of the meeting. what ensued was a heated and profane clash between this group and president trump's white house advisers, who traded personal insults, accusations of disloyalty to the president, and even, challenges to physically fight. the meeting would last over six hours, beginning here in the oval office. moving around the west wing, in many hours later, ending up in the president's private residence. the select committee has spoken with six of the participants, as well as staffers who could hear the screaming from outside the oval office. what took place next is the best told in their own words, as you will see from this video. >> do you believe that it was gonna wear? that you're gonna be able to see the precedent, without an appointment? >> i have no idea. in fact, they didn't get the
president -- [inaudible] >> how much time did it have, along with the president, people with you, like, from his age before the crowd came running? >> probably more than, not more than ten or 15 minutes. >> [inaudible] but cipollone said in a land speed record. >> i got a call, either from mali or from eric herschmann, that i should get to the oval office. >> so that was at the first point, where i had to recognize, there is no information from the white house. mark is gone. what's going on right now?
>> i require -- and i walked in, and i saw general flynn. i saw sydney powell sitting there. i was not happy to see these people, in the oval office. >> explain why. >> again, i don't think they were providing, first of all, the overstock person, i've never met with this guy was. actually, the first instance i walked in, i looked up and said, who are you? and he told me, i don't think any of these people were providing the president with good advice. and so, i didn't understand how they had gotten in. >> in the short period of time, you had with the president, he seems disk distracted to the presentation where you are making? >> he was very interested in hearing particularly, about the -- [inaudible] but apparently nobody else has bothered to inform him of. >> -- [inaudible] and whomever else, and at one point, general flynn took out a diagram, that supposedly showed, people all over the world, and -- who was communicating with home
via machines, and some comments about like a thermostat being hooked up with the internet. >> when you ask this panel -- >> a variety of responses, based on my current recollection, including, you know, not believing it was a something -- like, what do you mean where is the evidence? you should know. things like that, or, you know, a disregard, i would say, a general disregard for the importance of actually impacting, i would say, -- >> and you know, there was a discretion, we will have it, whatever. >> i mean, if it had been sitting in his chair, i would have fired all over that -- >> flynn told me that i wasn't a quitter, everything standing up turning around screaming at me. and it was a point i had with him, so, i yield back. i had to come over, back down. >> the president and the white
house team went upstairs to the residence, but to the upper part of the residents, you know, the big tall are, where you can have meetings in the conference room. >> did you come at the yellow oval? >> yes, the other oval office. i always called it the upper. >> and i'm not exactly sure where the sydney group went. i think maybe the roosevelt room. i stayed in the cabinet, which is kind of cool, i really like that. all by myself. >> at the end of the day, we landed where we started the meeting, at least from a structural standpoint, which was, sydney powell was fighting. mike flynn was fighting. they were looking for outlets that would enable, that would result in president trump remaining president trump for a second term. >> the meeting finally ended after midnight. here are text messages sent by
cassidy hutchinson, during and after the meeting. as you can see, miss hutchinson reported that the meeting in the west wing was unhinged. the meeting finally broke up after midnight, during the early morning of december 19th. cassidy hutchinson captured the moment of mark meadows escorting rudy giuliani off the white house grounds, to quote, make sure he didn't wander back into the mansion. >> otherwise, he might have wondered back to the mansion. heck, you might still be in that camera room right now. certainly, not taken by the -- also, a diet dr. pepper, has some explaining to do. i wanted to do step brand-new
addition to the msnbc family, who are very excited to have back here with us. alex wagner! yay. who is joining us this hour. great to have you here, alex. >> i'm excited to be here on the circumstances. >> i think it seems perfect! >> it's about right, isn't it? >> i mean, jump in, this december 18th meeting, we knew it happened. we have descriptions of a, particularly an open source reporting before. but now, we get all these accounts of people who could hear the screaming. and who are trying to contain it. it's just astonishing. >> i mean, couple of things that stood out to me. one, the idea that white house counsel is running into the oval, saying how did you guys get in here, right? apparently, it's very easy to waltz in the oval office, right? this collection of ragtag con artists somehow is admitted, like, the inner circle of power, in the united states gets the
ear of the president, and launches into the most cockamamie theories regarding next thermostats, or literally, the spaghetti is being thrown at the wall. and somehow, residents in the united states, to a degree that he's ready to make the appointment of sydney powell to be a special counsel. >> it is -- i think that revelation that he actually did it. there's an important thing in a couple of different levels. to the extent that we are, you know, thinking about the solution of the presidency. it is both good, that donald trump was in able to appoint cynical to be special counsel, and it's gonna start people with guns, as she investigated the election, when you know she thought and still does about election fraud. and what she thinks conscious evidence in that regard. on the other hand, the president designated somebody to be a special counsel to look into these things, and the response of the people in the white house who are trying to contain the damage that he was doing was pretending like he didn't say, not do any paperwork, pretend that he hadn't named our special counsel, and given her security clearance. which is what you're rooting for, and also horrifying to find yourself in. >> there's also this sort of amazing reputation subtext here, which is like the team normal,
versus the crazies, right? we keep seeing this again and again. and effect that cipollone, i'm a real lawyer. i'm a real person backstop things with facts. like, these are just ragtag not bars, and it's like, well, the president believed in you before you believed in them. everyone, there is this like really funny divide of like, who is on what side of this line, off the coup, and this moment, where i think this goes do generally fall from the eyes a little bit. like, these are the people who want to hear from. like -- >> but they are connected. i mean, the whole graphic depiction of what it amounts to like a bar crawl through the, you know, west wing to the east wing, to steal the election, like pushing rudy out like a wedding pressure. i've been in the white house, covering it for five and a half years, no one has been put alone in the cabinet room unless they didn't pass their rapid background check, or got drunk at a reception in a
residence. never heard about that. and then, he came back, because cassidy says, he used to return to the 18 acres to escort him out, like, it's the most bizarre part of it. but the reason it's there, the institutionalist's work colossal failures. and they never -- i mean all the testimony about the 14th, don't quit. mcconnell doesn't quit, trump. no one goes and meets with joe biden, as he is becoming president. no one bestows integrity on the results of the election. none of these people do. so, to hear them -- it's all relative. so, to hear them wrestling the real villains, they were the villains half an hour earlier. >> by the way, mark meadows, you know, he's the guy who escorts rudy out. he doesn't want him back into the mansion. he's also a guy that ultimately signed with the overstock guy, right? in the end, the person -- like, he signs with the overstock guy!
>> quickly, we're talking about a person who has a website -- she had to resign after -- >> after having the affair with a russian agent. >> that's the back story -- >> we still need to know what turned them. i need to understand. because at some point, his rational mind keeps kicking in for like moments. and then, he just loses it again. >> well, the adults in the room aren't actually the adults in the room. and liz cheney said, you know, this guy isn't a child. and yet, he's treated as a child over and over again. we talk about the indulgence of these winds, you know, the idea that, we will let him appoint sydney powell as special counsel, but we don't really follow. it's not ideal with a three year old. i'll tell him we're gonna see,
we're gonna have desert, like at midnight. he will be asleep by then. he won't know, right? this is the same behavior that they're performing with trump. >> but, i mean, there's a little bit of precedent for this in history, right? in the nixon era, we've got next and so unhinged, so unhealthy, in some cases so crippled by alcohol, and the thrones of watergate, if you got other members of the administration think don't follow his orders. this is gonna go through me, or actually, i am in charge here, right? you get that. at various times, when we have thought the presidency was at its breaking point, here, we get that. you know, we get that with jeffrey clark, right? we get back with the sydney powell thing. we just didn't do it. he told us to do it, and we just didn't follow through on it. that implies that the presidency was so broken in that moment, that somebody else was effectively acting as president of the united states, as the head of the federal government. nobody's copying to that. nobody came publicly former about that until today, i mean, everybody who let it get this path, and they try to manage it away, this way, will have to pay for this in history forever. nobody's gonna be a hero. >> that's come out today, and exactly what you're describing, cipollone nominates mike pence for presidential, and it does come out today. they have, who are the things they've said, but the things they have not said, it made it abundantly clear that trump was not america's commander-in-chief on january six. it was neither a top of the military, nor the justice department, nor the -- >> he's being the voice of reason in the white house, but
you've got a problem. like, she's actually -- or brett barnes de barksdale, and saying, no, it's him, and here's the one doing it. ultimately, it was just spoken. they were just incompetent and that was the worst thing that happened. the worst thing that happened is that somebody got a touch with stewart rhodes, and enrique tarrio, and said hey, here is a good idea, keep him in power using violence. >> and that's what we're gonna talk about, next, the way that groups known to be not only paramilitary extremist groups, not only armed groups, but groups that have been involved in advanced planning for using the crowd as a weapon against congress on january six. how they were activated by the president, personally? that's next. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> trump's december 19th treat motivated these two streams groups, which have historically not worked together to coordinate their activities. december 19th, at 10:22 am, just hours after president trump's tweet, kelly megg, the head of the florida oath keepers, declared an alliance among the oath keepers, the
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primetime recap of the january sixth hearing today. today, investigators showed the response that ensued to trump's first summons of his supporters to washington for january six. after the world's craziest white house meeting and it after midnight, on december 18th, that is when president trump sent his first tweet, telling his supporters that general six was the day. that is the day they should come to the nation's capital, saying it would be quote, wild. the investigators today showed right-wing media, basically going crazy in response. they showed pro trump figures, promising bloodshed that day. they also play part of a deposition from the homeland security and intelligence chief in washington, d. c., talking about how many red flags went off immediately among professionals that feel. when they realize the trump's call to action for january 6th was inspiring all these various
different kinds of extremist groups to join forces for that day. >> doctor gonell hartman, chief of homeland security and intelligence for d. c., told the committee how his team thought trump's december 19th treat, unite violent groups across the spectrum on the far-right. >> we've got dr. information from olson, suggesting that some very, very violent individuals were organizing to come to d. c.. and not only where they organizing to come to d. c., but these groups, these non aligned groups or aligning. and so, all the red flags went up at that point. you know, when you have an armed militia,, you know collaborating with white supremacy groups, collaborating with conspiracy theory groups online, all toward a common goal, you start seeing what we call in, you know, terrorism of
ideology, that's a very, very bad fight. and not just across one platform, but across multiple platforms, these groups coordinating, just like chatting, a house is going? or, what's the weather like where you are at? but, what are you bringing? what are you wearing? you know, where do we meet up? they had plans to the capital. that is operational. that is like operational intelligence, right? and that is something that is clearly alarming. >> that is something that is clearly alarming. that point emphasized again, again by investigators today. and emphasized by them for the first time, in terms of the communications the public. it's the first time we heard today, but then they kept repeating it. these right-wing groups responding to trump came together to all try to do what you want that day. all sorts of desperate types of right-wing and extremist groups, all unified behind what he wanted from them. that was operationally scary. the people who deal with homeland security and intelligence matters, but it was operationally important as to what trump wanted to do with
those groups. they further presented evidence, scene and previously on discussed evidence, that he was thrilled by what you could see they were doing, what you could see they were planning. as he planned to get them into the capitol building once they come to d. c.. he was elated. >> the committee has learned from the white house phone logs that the president spoke to steve bannon, his close adviser, at least twice on january 5th. the first conversation they had lasted for 11 minutes. listen to what mr. bannon said that day after the first call he had with the president. >> all how it's going to break loose tomorrow! all converging, and now on to the point of attack, right? the point of attack tomorrow. i will tell you this, it's not
gonna happen like you think it's gonna happen, okay? it's gonna be quite extraordinarily different, and all i can say is strap in. >> that same day, on the eve of january six, supporters of trump gathered in washington, d. c., at another rally. this rally was held at freedom plaza, which is located near the white house. it featured some of the speakers, like katrina pierson, and others deemed too extreme to share the stage with the president the next morning. and as this rally was underway, the president asked members of his staff to come to the oval office. let's hear from the white house aides who were in the oval office that night. >> i was in the office, in the oval office, and he asked me to open the door, so that he could hear, i guess, there was a concert, or a rally, or something going on. >> did he just say, just opened the door? >> he, i don't remember specifically which is that, but there was a lot of energy. >> when we walked in, and staff was kind of standing up, and assembled along the wall. and the president was at the desk. and dan scavino was on the couch.
and the president was writing the tweet that he wanted scavino to send out. and then the president stopped about the rally the next day. he had the door of the oval opened to the rose garden because you could hear the crowd already assembled outside on the ellipse, and they were playing music, and it was so loud that you could feel it shaking in the oval. he was in a very good mood. and i say that because he had not been in a good mood for weeks, leading up to that. and then, it seemed like he was in a fantastic mood. on that evening. >> [inaudible] he wonders if members of congress would be with him tomorrow. >> and, are they voting in his favor, as opposed -- to [inaudible] >> yeah, not wanting to certify
the election. >> then, he did look to the staff, and ask for ideas of how, if i recall, he said that we could make the rhinos do the right thing is the way he phrased it. and no one spoke up initially, because i think everyone was trying to process what he meant by that. >> as he was making his way back, talking to them about, we should go up to the capitol. what's the best route to go to the capitol? >> through the open door of the oval office, the president could hear the sound of the crowd in the music and the rally at the freedom plaza. and these are some of the things that they were saying there at the plaza, just blocks from where the presidents at that evening, excited for the next day. >> tomorrow, tomorrow, trust me, the american people that are standing on the soil that we are standing on tonight, and they're gonna be standing on the soil tomorrow, this is so well that we have fought over, fought for, and we will fight for in the future. the members --
the members of congress, the members of the house of representatives, the members of the united states senate, those of you who are feeling wreaked tonight, those of you that don't have the moral fire in your body, get some tonight, because tomorrow, the people are gonna be here. and we want you to know that we will not stand for a lie. we will not stand for ally! >> i want them to know that 1776 is always an option! >> [noise] >> -- they're gonna give us what we want, our we are gonna shut this country down! >> it's 1776! 1776 -- 1776, 1776. the president thrilled by being
able to hear those guys through the open door of the oval office the night before january six. he was in a good mood because in four weeks because of it. joining us is msnbc's legal chief correspondent. looking at that windows into the presidents psyche is always unnerving in these kind of circumstances. when we thought of that reporting or what that revealed there about the various different right-wing groups that have all sorts of different extreme iterations agreeing to work together and all feeling summoned in the same way to the same thing even though they wouldn't typically work together on the same project. >> i think this is part of a seditious conspiracy and a problem for donald trump and why the testimony today was so devastating, when you talk about a mindset or a mood, it shows that this is the plan.
he planned a march and he showed the illicit, furtive attempt to hide how they planned to march as you discussed tonight previously. then as he finds out about the weaponry there, he says no, go on ahead as we've discussed and then when they actually breached the capitol these people working together according to the doj conspiring reaction is this is not out of control or surprise, the reaction is yes, this is the goal or it's a sad thing to say about any american president, for this american president, it was the best case scenario quote. order >> welcome back to our primetime recap of the january a violent breach of the capitol. to put in legal language, obstruct the proceeding. if you land that plane the donald trump intended through his actions, both governmental and vigilante to obstruct the proceeding, you have a felony. >> alex you've done some sort of reporting on vigilante groups. how do they go with you both >>
alex you've done some sort of reporting on vigilante groups. how do they go with you both in this point with intelligence officials that it was notable and important to the plan that these different right-wing groups were working together. >> it was very notable and, there's a lot of factualism in that world. i spoke with a 3% security force which is an offshoot of the 3% militia, they're very territorial these guys. [laughs] [noise] >> worth dying for? >> and so the fact that they are coming together, they're commuting says something about the importance of the mission. but i think it's worth underscoring especially on a day like today, you had some folks who came to the capitol like stephen ayers who are not deeply steeped in militia culture. and then others like the oath keepers and tactically trained groups, and others i spoke to who before the election saying if joe biden wins, it's fraudulent this will be another civil war.
these guys were doing weekend tactical training, they had a command pyramid of period of power. they were calling each other sergeants and generals, they had a battle plan and they were looking for a war. so when donald trump didn't have the election turned his way by virtue of the courts or state representatives the election to turn his way, he goes to the last box on his list and it's the crowd. it's weaponizing and already militarized group of americans who are organized and skilled in canada. many of them, some of them former law enforcement, former military get them to be the head of the battering ram to breach the capitol. these guys were trained, they were organized and everyone knew it. they talkede to me before the election. the trump world, trump's cronies certainly knew as much. >> one of the leaders of today 's hearing, congressman jamie raskin had exactly that point on that point. he's gonna join us next.
stay with us. >> in his inaugural address, president trump introduced one image, american carnage. the turn of phrase explains a little about our country before he took office. it turned out to be an excellent prophesy over what his rage would visit on our people. american carnage. that's donald trump's true legacy. d trump's true legacy
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first time in american history, nearly toppled the constitutional order and brutalized hundreds and hundreds of people. the watergate break-in was like a cub scout meeting compared to this assault on our people and our institutions. >> congressman jamie raskin a democrat from the great state of maryland was one of the january six investigators who led today's hearing. congressman raskin joins us. sir it's good to see you. i know this has been an exhausting day. thank you for making time to be with us here tonight. >> it's a pleasure rachel, great to be with you. >> we've been talking for the last more than an hour to half about all of the revelations that you and your colleagues
learned today. i do want to ask you on a raw news level of at the very end of the hearing one of your colleagues, liz cheney dropped a bombshell about president trump having contacted witness and that in formation is being forward on of the department of justice. she was implying about witness tampering. is that the correct inference to draw from her remarks and can you tell us anymore about that? >> i think the vice chair definitely wanted to send a message about witness tampering, because this is a pattern we've noticed for a long time now. that there are people who are trying to get in touch with our witnesses and influence them and move them and try to find out what they will say and so on. i obviously can't talk about a particular case but i think liz cheney wanted to send a strong, deterrent message. >> congressman, hi it's joy. i am fascinated by the time period between midnight between mark meadows working rudy giuliani out of the white house makes his move to double back and it's one, 40 2 am on january 5th night. does the committee know who if anyone the former president called, spoke with, had interaction with between the
time he was told, we ain't seizing the voting machines, all these plans aren't happening and when he sent those tweets saying we are going to have a wild time on january 6th? >> well, it's a great question joy. the way that i see it is that the outside team that had accompanied trump on his increasingly fantastical attempts to overthrow biden's majority in the electoral college had basically run out of any sane options. what passed for the normal team at that point in the white house counsel's office in the white house struck back. so trump understood that he was barking up the wrong tree with sydney powell, giuliani, overstock people, but he didn't want to essentially want to accept the reality which was that at that point cipollone
and the white house staff were telling him, just like the department of justice, just like his own campaign. they were all saying it was over. he didn't want to accept it. here i think you see a little bit of the political savvy of donald trump, because he knew he always had one final case in ace in the hole that he could play, and i was a crowd, and the crowd could turn into a mob. and that was as i said kurt was always the touchstone of his power and the metric by which he defined his power, and it was fascinating to me to hear a witness say today, while he was in a terrible mood for weeks until the crowd arrived, and he opened the windows and the doors to hear the crowd outside and he thought that crowd, once armed and turned into a mob with the proper incitement would be his political salvation and he would be able to hang on to the presidency in that way. >> congressman, the evidence presented today by you and your
colleagues made clear why everyone was so bullish about cassidy hutchinson's surprise public testimony last week. i wonder if you can confirm something that pat cipollone corroborates every single one of cassidy hutchinson's anecdotes about life inside the west wing? >> well, that's not how we interview the witnesses. we don't take a witness and say can you corroborate every single thing that this witness said? i will tell you that at least to my mind, pat cipollone as the white house counsel corroborated every single major element of the story that we have already set forth to congress and the american people. there was an effort to go to the state legislatures to set aside the popular vote and appoint electors directly for trump. there were efforts to shake down state election officials like secretary of state brad raffensperger in georgia, and just find 11,780 votes. there were efforts to organize
a mini coup at the department of justice to oust the sitting attorney general and replace him with a mid level functionary who would be willing to promote the big lie and do whatever donald trump told him to do and it was only at the point of a threat of a mass resignation that donald trump backed down from that one. basically, every major element that i have seen as part of trump's assault on democracy has been confirmed. i didn't hear mr. cipollone to contradict anything that any witness had said in support of any of these various theories. i don't think that -- i certainly didn't ask him about specific things that other witnesses had said. >> congressman, today you said the word explosive and you didn't mean it in a metaphorical sense. i think it's sort of rocked a
lot of people back on their heels talking at a recent doj filing that indicates that in addition to all the other weapons that we've heard about, at least one member of these groups brought grenades, brought military ordinance grenades with them to january six. how significant is it to the investigation, what you've been able to uncover, with the justice department has been able to uncover, about weapons, about ammunition, about the degree to which the crowd was armed and the degree to which president trump knew it? >> well, i think it's an essential thing rachel for the american people to understand, because i think everybody gets the point that donald trump used these extremist groups. but they used him too. they used him in order to build a functioning street fascist alliance essentially. we saw the creation of a mass fighting street army by the extreme right for the first time in our lifetimes.
compare where they were in charlottesville with around 500 people. and right now they are the frontline stormtroopers of a rally of 30 or 40,000 people. they come very close to knocking over the government of the united states. he bolstered them, he built them up, he expanded their numbers, but he also ended up getting a lot of them in trouble. of course when other people get in trouble, donald trump's nowhere to be found, unless it's something he thinks he can still use in the future. i will note in this regard that there were pardons rendered to several people who ended up being important organizers of the extreme right and one of them was roger stone. another was michael flynn as you saw today and and also there was another pardon was given to steve bannon. >> on another point about flynn and stone, cassidy hutchinson testified that trump told his chief of staff mark meadows the
night before january six on january 5th, that he should put in a call to mike flynn and to roger stone. and cassidy hutchinson testified she did know what happened on that call. we both know that flynn and stone have taken the fifth. does the committee know more about that call? given what you've been able to expose about the ties between stone and flynn to these armed extremist groups, and the fact that the president was trying to get directly in contact with them the night before i was gonna go down, do you know more about the communication between them the night before january 6th? >> well, it's another excellent question. i will just tell you that our investigation continues. i hope that message got through today. we know a lot more today than certainly we knew during the impeachment trial about the sikh connections and relationships. we hope to know a lot more in a month or two that we know today. >> congressman jamie raskin of the january sixth investigation. sir you deserve a full night sleep, i'm sure you will not get one, but thank you for being with us tonight. >> pleasure is mine. >> we've got more ahead on our primetime recap of the january
6th hearing. stay with us. >> january 6th was an attack on our country. it was an attack on our democracy, on our constitution. a sitting president with a violent mob trying to stop the peaceful transfer of power, of one president to another. it still makes my blood boil to think about it. t think about it
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president for seemingly the first time was speaking directly to extremist organizations and giving them directives. we had not seen that sort of direct communication before and that concerned me. >> so, just to clarify further, you were worried and others at twitter were worried the president might use your platform to speak directly to folks who might be incited to violence? >> yes. >> repeated testimony of today's january 6th hearing from a disembodied former twitter employee whose voice was disguised so as to talk
about what the view was within twitter regarding the president's dangerousness and the way he was using that platform. steph ruhle is with us now. this is the first time we've seen an anomymous witness with a disguised voice. what's this person is afraid of testifying about openly is the fight within twitter about the dangerousness of what trump was doing. given the courage show by other witnesses, this is a strange place to draw the line? >> just last night, i interviewed alex holder. he was subpoenaed, he was the man who made that trump docuseries that you saw some of the footage in these hearings. when i asked him, have trump or try lies spoke to you before he spoke to the committee, did they put pressure on you? he wouldn't answer for the question. he went full no comment. so it's amazing how scared these people are, but amazing how sloppy trump is that he is potentially speaking directly to people. normally, he goes mob boss style.
and you hear, a trump ally spoke to them or someone close to trump. if it's trump himself it's dangerous. >> we have the situation where within twitter, within the company twitter there's apparently a fight as to whether or not trump is directly communicating and given directors to extremist groups that are calling themselves locked and loaded that are responding to what he's doing with causes of violence. twitter doesn't know what to do about. there's an employee so afraid about talking about the internal processes at twitter -- >> this is one of the reasons people don't want to buy twitter as a company. they know what you have to own as that content moderator is so scary and so dangerous in the world we are living in you end up in a circus of elon musk. that's the only guy. >> more of today's coverage of today's january six hearing straight ahead. stay with us. raight ahead stay with us
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of today's january six january six hearing we hearing. are going to have this month we are going to -- we're gonna be getting at least we think we're gonna be them back together getting the band back together next thursday thursday thursday, thursday next week next week because that's when the because that's when the committee committee is expected is expected to to hear their next hearing in hold their next hearing in primetime by primetime. this committee changes the mandala anywhere that's planned a let you know there needs to be a plan b way to mark with jonathan visits tonight this committee changes their mind a lot. explosive that's plan a, we'll let you know if there needs to be a plan b. right now it's time for the details of trump's call tech ere needs to be a plan b. tonight, explosive new details about trump's call to action. late night tweets, last-minute changes to his speech that ignited the deadly insurrection. an impossible attempt to attenuate a witness. plus the crazies attempt to push their basis big lie in a secret white house meeting the turned into a screaming match. and, testimony from a former member of the oath keepers. the events on january 6th could've been the spark that started a new civil war. how much worse could it have been? as the 11th hour gets underway on this tuesday night.