tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC July 22, 2022 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
the question, give me that answer, and i will pass it on to him. that's a privilege conversation. and so, this was all so bullshit, if you will, because it's like anything he said to meadows would be just as privilege as he said to trump. >> that's great. there's not some constitutional force feed. -- >> yeah, there is not some constitutional force feed around donald trump, as an individual, which is how it sort of seems to be he is trying to sort of spin it in these depositions. but i'm glad you said that, because it's drove me a little crazy. george conway, thank you for coming with us tonight. have a great weekend. appreciate it. >> that does it for the super sized edition of all in. the last word with lawrence o'donnell starts right now. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening,ll chris. i just heard george conway use a word that i guess it's a friday night onward, right? like, it's different though cavalry rules on friday. >> i can't control my guests.
i'm just a humble host. >> on friday, night there's different rules for guests, but the host rules are all the same. >> always the same. >> there's a list of words that i can't say. it applies for friday night as well. >> even on a july friday night, late at night. >> late at night, 10:00, the kids are still watching. okay, i got it. thank, you chris. >> thank you. >> well, the two shirts guy is now the two guilty verdicts guy. steve bannon, who always wears to shirts for reasons known only to him, was found guilty on two counts of criminal contempt of congress in federal court today in washington, d.c.. former federal prosecutor glenn kirschner was in the courtroom, and will join us later in this hour. with the unsurprising details of those two guilty. when i watch the general six committee hearings, especially one that includes video of donald trump and his children,
i always wonder what mary trump's thinking. mary trump will tell us exactly what she was thinking last night, watching that hearing, when she joins us at the end of the hour tonight. and of course, i always wonder, with our law professor laurence tribe seized in these hearings, and we are lucky to have him, joining us tonight, share his reaction to what we all heard last night. and as we have done after each of these hearings, we will begin our discussion tonight with the legal team of neal katyal neal katyal and barry berke whose expertise will illuminate the most important components of the testimony tonight. the committee announced last night that they will resume public hearings in september because evidence continues to develop and emerge in their investigation. >> in the course of these hearings, we have received new evidence, and new witnesses have bravely stepped forward. efforts to litigate and
that his investigation is now a criminal investigation of the secret service. the january six committee member, we zoe lofgren, broke the news yesterday in an interview with nicole wallace on msnbc that some secret service agents have hired private criminal defense lawyers to represent them in negotiations for their testimony with the january 6th committee. here's what january ex committee member adam kinzinger said about that today. >> now, all of a sudden, you have the secret service members, lawyer-ed up, and not coming in to talk to us. >> kinzinger said that first thing this morning, and in the late afternoon today, the director of the secret service, james marie, finally broke his silence on the worst scandal ever to hit the secret service. after one week of total silence, the director of the secret service issued a written statement, which was, at this
point, very difficult to believe. james marie said in writing, i am firmly reiterating the commitment of the united states secret service and supporting the extraordinary efforts of the january 6th select committee, since day one, i have directed our personnel to cooperate fully and completely with the committee, and we are currently finalizing dates and times for our personnel to make themselves available to the committee for follow-up inquiries. that last bit is absolutely not true. we are currently finalizing dates and times for our personnel, to make themselves available to the committee. no, you are not! their criminal defense lawyers are doing that. james murray's written statement does not mention the existence of the privately hired criminal defense lawyers who are now reportedly representing donald trump's
favorite secret service agent, tony ornato, who was the head of donald trump's secret service detail on january 6th. bobby engel, who was also in the suv that day, and the unnamed driver, who was in the presidential suv that day. donald trump wanted them to take him to the capitol, to join the attackers of the capitol, on january 6th. we hear at the last word asked to questions of the secret service today, just two questions. question one, has james murray, the director of the secret service hired his own private legal defense council? question number two, did james murray, director of the secret service, preserve his own january 6th text messages on his secret service phone? we got the same answer to both questions, which was, no answer at all.
james one's page written statement today that's not even mention secret service text messages. james murray does not have one word to say to the people of the united states, to the congress of united states, the president of the united states, about the secret services deleted text messages. james murray authorize the deletion of secret service text messages, after a january 6th, when he knew that the secret service communications on january six had instantly become the most important secret service communications in the history of the secret service. he knew that. when he allowed them to be deleted. james atlas murray knew they were going to be deleted. james murray is leading the secret service at the end of next week, to become the highly paid director of corporate security for a snapshot. and when he shows up eventually to the january 6th committee to
testify under oath, you can be very sure, he will then have a very highly paid private criminal defense lawyer. instead of explaining why he authorized the deletion of the text messages, after january 6th, in his written statement today, james murray said, quote, the men and women of the united states secret service are worthy of trust and confidence. we always thought so, until exactly one week ago. and now, the secret service has a long way to go, to be worthy of trust and confidence, because james murray has directed the secret service into the worst scandal in secret service history, that is now the subject of a criminal investigation, with secret service agents lawyer-ing up. that is how james murray is going to leave the secret service, after being appointed director of the secret service, because donald trump's favorite secret service agent, tony
ornato told donald trump to appoint his friend, james murray, as director of the secret service. and you can be sure that there were pledges to donald trump, from tony ornato and james murray, that james murray would be loyal, the thing donald trump demands of anyone who was appointing, the think that he demanded from james comey and a conversation about james comey's possible continuation as fbi director, and when james comey did not blitz his loyalty, donald trump fired him. so, we know, what kind of pledges of loyalty donald trump exact those tuitions. did james murray delete the january six text messages on his own secret service phone? i have asked that question publicly here on television, and i have asked that question directly to the secret service. no answer. in his written statement today,
james murray took the press release equivalent of taking the fifth amendment. he refused to say one word about the secret service text messages, including his own text messages on january 6th. he used the right to remain silent that criminal defendants half. the dam has begun to break in a way that means we are going to learn much more about the secret service text messages, that the secret service wants to remain secret. last night, the january six committee delivered a full accounting of the 187 minutes during the attack on the capitol, when donald trump did nothing to defend the capitol. but the evidence shows that donald trump was not doing nothing. it now shows that donald trump was the commander in chief of the insurrection at the capitol, the commander in chief who wanted to go to the capitol to join his troops, attacking the
capitol. the evidence shows that after a struggle that became physical, in the presidential suv, donald trump was returned to the white house where the motorcade spent 45 minutes in the driveway, waiting for the final official word that they would not be going to the capitol. that means donald trump spent another 45 minutes in the white house, trying to get to the capitol. in the white house, he chose a smaller room than the oval office, less accessible to white house staff, to mostly steal himself off from people who wanted him to act as the commander in chief of the united states of america. he sat in a small dining room, near the oval office, and watched the coverage of his insurrection troops on fox. it was the insurrection version of a president, watching the armed services of the united states, carry out a mission from the situation room. here is the most famous image
of a president of the united states, doing exactly that. that is the president of the united states, watching his troops, in action, on the successful mission to get osama bin laden. president obama issued the order to go on that mission, and then, all he could do was watch the navy seals in action. on january 6th, donald trump was watching the troops, whom he sent into action. >> he summoned a mob to washington, afterward, on january 6th, when he knew that a simple mob was heavily armed and angry, he commanded the mob to go to the capitol, and he emphatically commanded the heavily armed mob to fight like hell. >> while donald trump was watching his mom fight like hell on television, a mob who he was informed was an armed mob, he already knew that.
he was watching them fight like hell on television, as he had commanded them to do donald trump took the action of firing a missile into a war zone. >> donald trump sent his 24 tweet, the president said, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should've been done, to protect our country and our constitution. despite knowing the capitol had been breached and the mob was in the building, president trump called mike pence a coward, and placed all the blame on him for not stopping the suffocation. he put a target on his own vice presidents back. >> they truly latched onto every word in every tweet that he says, and so, i think, in that moment, for him to tweet out the message about mike pence, it was him pouring gasoline on the fire. and making it much worse. >> that tweet was ammunition for that crowd. that tweet was the equivalent
that day of the arms that president biden is sending to ukraine for the battle there. donald trump did everything he could, possibly could, from the white house, to encourage his troops at the insurrection. for the commander in chief of the insurrection, that tweet was a very successful missile strike. the trump mob, after that tweet searched even more forcefully and more violently, while donald trump remain busy calling senators to try to convince them to overturn the results of the presidential election. >> he told mark meadows that the rioters were doing what they should be doing, and that rioters understood they were doing what president trump wanted them to do. >> donald trump summoned the violent mob, and promised to lead that mob to the capitol, to compel those he thought would cave to that kind of pressure.
and when he was thwarted in his effort to lead the armed uprising, he the attackers to target the vice president with violence. a man who just wanted to do his constitutional duty. so in the end, this is not as it may appear, a story of an action in a time of crisis. but instead, it was the final action of donald trump's own plan to assert the will of the american people, and remain in power. >> at the beginning of last night's hearing, chairman benny thompson promised that the committee will prove its case against donald trump, beyond reasonable doubt. >> there can be no doubt that that work coordinated a multi-step effort to overturn an election overseeing and directed by donald trump. that could be no doubt that he commanded a mob, a mom he knew was heavily armed, violent, and
angry, to march on the capitol, to try to stop the peaceful transfer of power. >> at the end of last night's hearing, there was no doubt we. leading off our discussion tonight, barry berke, who served as special counsel to the house judiciary committee during donald trump's first impeachment trial. and chief impeachment counsel during trump's second impeachment trial. also with us, neal katyal, former acting u.s. solicitor general, and an msnbc legal analyst. thank you very much for rejoining us tonight. and as i always do here, i just want to open it to each one of you, without leaving you in any way, about what you saw as the highlights. barry berke, which was important to you last night's hearing? >> i'm glad to go before neal. i'll tell you, last night was the culmination of donald trump's scheme. but it recast everything that preceded it. because mostly, the criminal case they have been showing is a white-collar criminal case,
meaning it's technical, you have to understand about electorals and the electoral scheme in the certification process. and the harm, as great is it is, the harms to democracy are somewhat abstract. last night, -- cast this case into a violent crime prosecution. you show the culmination of donald trump's efforts to interfere with with congress was sending this mob, refusing to stop them and then inciting them further. and everybody, every american citizen, a juror, can understand why the secret service people protecting the security detail of the vice president are calling the families because they fear for their life. that is a crime that everyone can understand. and it is the culmination of the entire efforts to interfere. so, i think last night changed the complexion of everything. because it showed donald trump's responsibility for it and it's important for the american people to see how bad this really was, how close it came. and it was a huge assist to the department of justice as well. >> neal katyal, what was
important to you? >> i agree very much with barry berke about the shift from a white-collar case to a violent crime case. i guess i would make a different point, which is, to me what came out yesterday was criminal contempt, through and through. and lawrence, your opening remarks got at this a little bit. trump's defense all throughout has been, hey, maybe i was guilty of omission or maybe i made a mistake or something like that. but the evidence showed yesterday, that this was no mistake. it was a premeditated, deliberated plan, hatched actually before the election. steve bannon, they showed audiotape on october 30th, before the election saying, this is the trump plan, he is going to declare victory even if he loses. a white house lawyer yesterday testified that donald trump didn't want to do anything to stop the violence on january 6th at the same time that trump knew it was unfolding. even the next day on january 7th trump couldn't bring himself, lawrence, to say that
the election was over. so, to me, the picture painted is trump's top advisers, his lawyers, his counsel, his family, all of them said, over and over again, put it into the violence. and what did donald trump do? he grabbed a bag of popcorn and start watching tv, instead of doing would any reasonable commander-in-chief would've done. it's devastating. >> barry, a lot of people are asking, what should the prosecutors be doing. let me phrase it a different way. you have experience as a defense attorney. and i'm imagining -- imagine a world in which donald trump had a really good criminal defense attorney which, so far, we haven't seen that -- but if he did, would that criminal defense attorney be telling donald trump are his possible criminal liabilities in the testimony that was delivered last night? >> i think a good criminal defense lawyer would tell him, mr. client, you are in big trouble, mr. president. you have seen a case that is
very simple for them to prove. a lot of people want to talk about whether it's seditious conspiracy. prosecutors really charged the hardest crime to prove. all they have to show is a significant crime, interfering with congress's certification of the vote, an official proceeding. that is a crime prosecuted all the time. we have seen it. the evidence of that is overwhelming. they floated all these defenses that have been shown to be untrue. and to neal's release more point about criminal intent, his failure to act as this is what he wanted all along. and it's easy to understand. it's hard to get into someone's mind. but when they refused to act, when they are happy, when they are rooting it on, it shows what they wanted. and when you have all the combat, it's not just about disputing the election in court. but doing things you can ever do, like telling a secretary of state to find votes, telling your senior leadership in the department of justice, just say it's fraught, i'll do the rest. that is [inaudible] i think, in the ordinary course, a good defense lawyers want to
start talking about a plea. with this former president, we know that's not going to happen. so, if the department of justice does in fact act to created torrent not just for donald trump at all the copycat out there who now think it's really cool to claim they are going to interfere with elections or elections [inaudible] , putting our democracy at risk, if the department that they are going to have an overwhelmingly strong case, based on all this evidence. and they can do more. >> let's listen once again to cassidy hutchinson's testimony about where she said that donald trump thought that mike pence deserves what the crowd was trying to do to him and saying about him. this is testimony that they have used more than once. it is so important to this committee that they use it again last night. let's listen to it. >> i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they are literally calling for the vice president to be effingham. and had marc responded something to be effective, you heard it, that, he thinks mics
deserves it, he doesn't think they are doing anything wrong. to which path said something, this is effing crazy. we need to be doing something more. >> neal, what do you see as the possible chargeable crimes here against donald trump? >> so you know it's bad when the great barry berke says, i would pleased this case out. [laughs] you can't defend it if it's not defensible. so i do think that the pence piece is a part of that. and yesterday, the testimony, not just the replayed cassidy hutchinson testimony, but the testimony of secret service agents who were calling their families, saying, i might not see you again, this might be if it, is just so powerful -- and trump sitting on his hands. so, that leads to allegations of both seditious conspiracy and insurrection, both of which, i think barry is right to say, those are the harder crimes to prove. it doesn't mean the prosecutor won't charge them.
they may because the evidence is mounting on them. but there are easier charges for prosecutors, like obstruction of an official proceeding, which is the 15 12 statute, as well as conspiracy to defraud the united states. those latter two are crimes that are isolated by a very highly respected judge reviewing the civil case and said it's more likely than not that donald trump committed both of those felonies. and lawrence, the testimony yesterday paints a picture, not just of those two felonies but those two felonies plus others, like seditious conspiracy and insurrection. so, this is a real -- this is as bad as it could get for trump. the evidence is now airing for the entire american public, even if merrick garland wanted to kind of pretend it didn't have, and sweep it under the rug, not be the first attorney general to have to indict former president, it's very hard for him not to indict of what the committee has put before the american people. >> we are going to get to merrick garland next, in the
next segment. neal katyal and barry berke, thank you both very much for starting off our discussion. thank you. and up next, we are going to get this close to merrick garland as we can when we are joined by harvard law professor laurence tribe, who taught constitutional law to attorney general merrick garland. professor tribe will tell us what the attorney general should be focusing on in last night's testimony what the attorney general should be thinking in terms of possible criminal charges against donald trump. that's next. against donal trump. that's next. i brought in ensure max protein
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certainly has criminal exposure. i'm not prosecutor, i'm not doj. but i certainly think if you look at what we presented tonight in all these hearings, that cannot be acceptable for the president of the united states. that the worst thing we can do is put something out that says, the president is about the long can do this again because i guarantee you that this will happen again. >> joining us now is professor laurence tribe, who has taught constitutional law at harvard law school for five decades. his students have included former president barack obama and current attorney general merrick garland. as you watch these hearings, i know you have your former student, merrick garland, in mind. what are you hoping the attorney general saw in last night's hearing? >> i believe he saw the culmination of an extraordinary presentation in which there is no conclusion possible other than the one that the very
impressive law firm of barry berke and neal katyal presented on your show just a few minutes ago, namely that the president of the united states deliberately decided that he was going to seize and retain power no matter what. he exhausted all possibilities in terms of going to court, that was fine. but when that didn't work he developed phony electoral certificates. and when that looked like it was not going to work, he assembled the angry mob. he knew that they were armed. he aimed them at the capitol. he made sure that the magnetometer's were off. he knew that some of the arms were deadly. ar-15s were included. and then, as merrick garland
undoubtedly watch last night's hearing, we saw that 187 minutes pass, in which, as you said, lawrence, quite powerfully, merrick watched the commander-in-chief, not of the united states but the commander-in-chief of unarmed insurrectionary mob aimed at the capitol. and during those 187 minutes, he did everything he could to make sure that they continued on their course. he sent out a tweet, making sure that they knew that he thought the vice president was a coward. it was clear that the mob was doing exactly what he wanted. and what i am hoping that merrick garland will do is recognize that just as he told the american people in a press conference a couple of days ago,
nothing could be more dangerous to the country then not to hold accountable someone who commits the high crime, the serious federal felony of attempting to overturn a democratic election. and i think that at this point, merrick garland has only one decision to make. and that is, how quickly to move forward. it's eastman you can wait and the longer he waits, the more powerful the evidence will be. but the perfect should not become the enemy of the good. i hope that merrick garland realizes that time is not on his side. and that waiting indefinitely will not be a good idea when the country is on a course that puts it in collision with the survival of democracy. and i think he is going to do
with any good attorney general would do. he's a particularly powerful and brilliant one. and that is to organize an indictment that is airtight. he could either go with a rather simple course that barry berke suggested. charge the easier but quite serious crimes of trying to obstruct a congressional inquiry. or he could go a more dramatic course that neal katyal suggests. and that is, [inaudible] seditious conspiracy and inciting an attempt to foment and aid and abet a violent insurrection. he could do all of the above. it seems to me that there is no reason to leave anything on the field. >> i think the way we have all been talking about it publicly separates january 6th and the attack on the capitol from the phone call to georgia around
january 1st, which is the subject of a criminal january investigation right now -- donald trump is the subject of a criminal investigation in georgia. everything he did in the phone call to georgia also involves possible federal offenses of election interference. so, would i am wondering is, would a full indictment of what this committee has developed -- which included one hearing that was about what happened in georgia -- would possibly include the charges that barry and we're neal talking about, in relation to january 6th, in addition to possible charges involving what donald trump did in the attempt to interfere in georgia? >> the answer is yes. i think every state in which donald trump attempted to interfere represents part of a multi pronged, octopus like plan. it couldn't have had more tentacles. but all of them are relevant. and the whole he's greater than
the sum of its parts. when the jury -- virtually any jury -- hears and sees what we have all seen, and even if you win that wow to the evidence that might not a [inaudible] criminal trial, it will really have no alternative but to conclude that donald trump is an ongoing danger to the republic. and that he has already committed the most serious crimes short of treason. and in fact, by essentially waging war against the united states, he did what many people would have called treason. i think that all has to be included. and there is no reason to filter out anything. i think that what fani willis is likely charging georgia is likely to become part of what merrick garland should seriously consider including in a federal indictment. >> harvard law professor
laurence tribe, thank you very much for joining us once again. we always learn a lot whenever we have. you >> thank you, lawrence. >> and coming, up blinker showers in the courtroom today when steve bannon became the first member of the trump team -- glenn kirschner will join us next and in our last segment tonight, mary trump will be joining us with her reaction to what the committee showed her uncle donald doing during the attack on the capitol team. g th g th attack so when i finished active therapy, i kept moving forward and did everything i could to protect myself from recurrence. verzenio is the first treatment in over 15 years to reduce the risk of recurrence for adults with hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive, early breast cancer with a high chance of returning, as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. hormone therapy works outside the cell while verzenio
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it's paid for by the out of state gambling corporations that wrote prop 27. it doesn't tell you 90% of the profits go to the out of state corporations. a tiny share goes to the homeless, and even less to tribes. and a big loophole says, costs to promote betting reduce money for the tribes, so they get less. hidden agendas. fine print. loopholes. prop 27. they didn't write it for the tribes or the homeless. criminal defendant steve bannon they wrote it for themselves.
walked into federal court in watching today wearing his inexplicable trademark to shirts and walked out a convicted criminal with two guilty verdicts. the judge scheduled his sentencing for october 21st. steve bannon's convictions on two grounds of criminal intent of congress for refusing to testify and to provide documents to the january 6th committee are each punishable by a fine of up to $1,000 animal aksum of 12 months in prison. the jury apparently had no struggle in reaching a verdict after steve bannon literally presented no defense, none, nothing. in her closing argument, a federal prosecutor molly gaskins said the case, quote, is not complicated but it is important. the defendant chose allegiance to donald trump over compliance with the law. steve bannon is, no doubt already planning how to use
whatever prison sentence he might get to cement his public image as a martyr for donald trump, a status he will be using for the rest of his life to try to trick trump cultists out of their money. joining us now is glenn kirschner, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. he was in the courthouse and watch the entire trial. glenn, maybe the least surprising verdict of anything you and i have ever covered here. >> yeah. as you say, lawrence, bannon presented no defense. he promised that he was going to go medieval during the trial. i kept my eye out for anything that looked medieval and i think we were all elected down. they really went out with a whimper. now of course they gave yet another speech on the courthouse steps after steve bannon was convicted in other three hours of jury deliberations, promising to go evil in the appellate court.
well, let me tell you, lawrence, that appellate proceedings are quite ill ian's compared to trial court proceedings. i don't see anything medieval. but the department justice has come under withering criticism lately and i do think we need to acknowledge the remarkable work of the two prosecutors in the case, molly gaskins and amanda von. they try to support case and they really let them and his team with nowhere to go. i think that's why they tried the case of quickly. they barely had time to select the four person i have lunch. >> they had a trump appointed judge here. and what the prosecution kept a simple case simple. it's easy to make the case of thinking there is a lot of pressure on this case. we've got to do a lot. but they really reduced it as following your tweets today, in the courtroom, to like, getting a parking ticket. you're getting a parking ticket,
you don't have choices. you've got to comply with what's on a parking ticket. >> you don't give the d.c. government and ultimatum, if you get a parking ticket. you can go to court and contest it, which is with steve bannon could have done. he could've gone to congress. he could've answered question by question by question. those questions that did not involve potential privilege, and then, he could have invoked privilege for any questions that he reasonably believed did raise an executive privilege issue. he didn't do that. he not only defied the congressional subpoenas, lawrence, but he posted and boasted and celebrated the fact that he was defying them. i think he was his own worst enemy, when he was basically posting a concession to the crime on social media. >> the plan is to profit from the martyr status, eventually. glenn kershner, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. >> coming up, donald trump's
niece mary trump will join us next. trump's trump's niece elves constantly; next it's important. we walk three to five times a week, a couple miles at a time. - we've both been taking prevagen for a little more than 11 years now. after about 30 days of taking it, we noticed clarity that we didn't notice before. - it's still helping me. i still notice a difference. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.
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movement. you do not represent our country and if you broke the law, i can say that. i already said you will pay. the demonstrators who infiltrated the capitol have defied the seat -- i can't see it very well. okay, i'll do this. i'm gonna do this. let's go. this election is now over. congress has certified the results -- i don't to say the election is over, i just want to say, congress has certified the results, without saying the election is over, okay? >> always say, now congress is certifying -- >> joining us now is mary trump, niece of donald trump. she's host of the podcast, the mary trump show, and author of the reckoning: our nation's trauma and finding a way to heal. thank you very much for joining us tonight. what was going through your mind, as they were watching that final hearing of this
initial series of it last night? >> lawrence, it's interesting, because of the outtakes or much -- i don't know if they were hyped, but they created a lot of expectation among viewers. the hearings last night. and i remember feeling underwhelmed because it wasn't anything beyond what i experienced from donald before. and it wasn't until afterwards that i realized that there actually was a lot going on in that video. the only thing that surprised me was that he was actually holding it together as well as he did. but because he is sort of a master of self deception, and as we know from his saying, he won't say that the election was over, he was putting everything in his power to convince himself as well as everybody else that there was still room to doubt. and he needed to keep that door open, didn't he? >> let's listen to what your
cousins husband, jared kushner, had to say. >> he told me he was getting really ugly over the capital. please, can you help? i would appreciate it. i don't recall a specific ask, just anything you could do. again, i got the sense that they were, you know, they were scared. >> they, meaning leader mccarthy and people on the hill, because of the violence? >> yes, he was scared. yes. >> think about that. leader mccarthy who was one of the presidents strongest supporters was scared and begging for help. president trump turned him down. so trying to call the presidents children. >> were you surprised that during the trump white house years that other people in power in washington decided that the best way to handle the situation is to call donald's children? >> no. i mean, i'm not entirely sure why they thought it would be a
good idea to conduct anybody, ivanka or jarred. as we know, and you and i have spoken about that before, donny didn't even have the fortitude to call his father directly, if he even knew his cell phone number. so, it doesn't surprise me, because as we've seen throughout the years, donald center circle is shrinking by the second. and there are fewer and fewer people in his orbit who have any sway, and i'm not even suggesting that ivanka and jarred, anymore, quite honestly. so, they were probably the last perceived defense against donald's doing something incredibly reckless, which as we now know, was to do absolutely nothing, after he had incited things direction this, russian it's. >> so, the image of him in the hundred and 87 minutes it
seemed to change last night and the way the committee presented it from this idea that this popular idea out there that he did nothing for the whole time, and now, and there representing, he was very active. he was active in supporting as commander-in-chief the insurrection, that that was he thought his job was, was help the insurrection, and use the insurrection to be busy making phone call centers. >> right. and it was the only slight miss that last night, when representative kinzinger said the donald refused to lead, and as you are suggesting, he actually did lead. he was just leading his people, as he's been doing for the last four years, quite honestly. he's never let the american people. he's only led people loyal to him, and he knew that the only people he could talk to, who would tell him what you wanted to hear, where people like rudy giuliani and, you know, the
senator, josh hawley. >> so that image of him moving to the small room, clearly to keep people out, that make perfect sense to you. he is isolating. he just wants to talk to the people who are gonna encourage him. >> yeah, absolutely, because why else would donald avoid cameras and the press? it was simply because he needed to shield himself from a counter narrative that he had no interest in hearing, and that did not serve his purposes. >> mary trump, thank you very much for your continued guidance in trump studies here at the last word. we always learn more about your uncle whenever you join us. >> thank you, lawrence. >> thank you. we'll be right back. >> thank you, lawrence >> we'll be right back.
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word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. as word the 11th hour with tonight, trump ally steve bannon guilty of defying a subpoena sent by the january six committee. as fallout grows from last nights damning hearing, raising still more questions over the secret service and security. what comes next for the committee -- then, split screen rallies in arizona, as establishment republicans take on the big lie, as the 11th hour gets underway on this friday night. good ev