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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  September 7, 2022 3:00am-6:00am PDT

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claims of voter fraud which he, of course, knew were not true. we saw his testimony in the january 6 committee hearings as well. he's not been shy by criticizing what is. happening now after trump left office. and of course, his raid at mar-a-lago. alayna treene, thank you as always. we'll talk to you again soon. i want to thank all of you for getting up "way too early" on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. this was not just extreme carelessness with classified material. which is still totally disqualifying. this is calculated, deliberate, premeditated misconduct, followed by a cover-up. >> what he did is illegal. it's classified information. >> he broke the law, it's very simple. i mean, as much as it's going to be broken, this is highly classified. that's the highest stage. it's highly classified information. many of them were classified.
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highly classified, you go to jail for that. and you go to jail for that. you should know that. classified information. you should go to jail for that for many, many years. >> lock him up, lock him up. >> jimmy kimmel with a mashup of donald trump's words concerning other people's mishandling of classified documents. but, wow, meanwhile, stunning new reporting this morning that the nuclear secrets of a foreign government were among the materials seized from mar-a-lago. we'll have the latest on that. plus, steve bannon set to be indicted. how the case related to fundraising shows the limits of the pardon he received from donald trump. and caught on tape, new video shows a fake elector in the 2020 election. escorting members of a tech firm into a georgia elections office
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on the same day a breach was detected. we'll explain how this ties into the overall election scheme. we're also following the latest in the fight over control in congress. new polling on the impact of the abortion issue. and how democrats could defy conventional wisdom that the president's party will lose power. good morning. and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, september 7th. good to have you all with us today. >> yeah. and there's so much going on this morning. the pace, willie, obviously continues, if donald trump thought that a federal judge's order that he got. >> a special master. >> after forum shopping, to get a special master appointed was going to slow down the pace of things, it seems to only quickened it on the federal level. on the state level. the news really just keeps
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coming fast. and now, they're even having his attorney general barr coming out. >> my goodness. >> saying the special master's decision was bizarre. >> on fox. >> you're having other -- well, people from both ends of the ideological spectrum. andrew mccarthy who is a tough conservative, smart guy, who is coming out also. just questioning the judge's ruling. it appears to have absolutely no precedent. and even barr thinks it's going to be reversed. in the meantime, again, a quickening of the pace, not only of this story, coming out, of washington, d.c. regarding the document. but also, again, steve bannon, possibly going to jail and once again a public official who was part of the january 6th riot, kicked out of office by a judge,
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a ban. and of course, the fake elector report growing. and then hillary clinton, really does get it. said it the day after january 6, that donald trump should be charged for conspiracy to commit sedition. you look at the statute. it lines up directly with what he did. and what all of these senate people did. for some reason, you have legal experts saying, well, there may be a statute that fits it a little bit better. i'm not so sure. >> yeah. interesting this criticism is coming from all corners, hillary clinton, you'd expect. but bill barr who will president trump's bidding all those years as attorney general has fully turned on him in this case at the very least. and that's because of all of the details we're getting it's become so clear cut, especially with new reporting from "the washington post." people familiar with the matter,
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telling the post, a document describing a foreign government's nuclear secrets was one the documents seized from mar-a-lago a month ago. the post did not identify the country in question, but there are only eight countries with nuclear capabilities. the paper also did not specify where inside former president trump's beach house the documents were found. in the days after the fbi search, the post reports that investigators were looking for new documents. familiar familiar with the search tell "the washington post" some of those top secret documents seized from mar-a-lago detail american secrets that are so closely guarded, many national security officials even lack the clearance to review them. a former spokesman responded to the latest tweeting "the washington post" continues to serve as the propaganda arm of the biden administration instead of operating openly and honestly. they collude in never-ending leaks and lies in the fbi and
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doj. all of this is not yet confirmed by nbc news. and the justice department has declined to comment. guys, obviously, as usual, the trump spokesman not addressing the specific claims in the piece but just attacking "the washington post." but now as we get the details, we knew that 300 of these documents were classified, that were taken from the white house. stored at mar-a-lago. obstructed by trump and his team getting it back to the national archives. so the fbi had to get that search warrant to go in. as we hear details now, the stakes are raised. we're talking about nuclear secrets of a foreign government floating around mar-a-lago, according to "the washington post" this morning. >> well, they're nuclear secrets that are so closely held that most national security experts, even inside the white house, can't see it. according -- >> right. >> according to the reporting, the president -- the president can see it. certain cabinet members with a specific need to know can see it.
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and a few other top officials in the administration can see it. but outside of that, this is top secret stuff. and it was just sitting around in mar-a-lago. >> i think that -- >> thank you about that. it was sitting around in mar-a-lago, where you have top secret documents, according to this "washington post" report which, by the way, who are you going to trust carol leonnig of the "washington post," or donald trump as far as track records -- that one's pretty easy. yeah. you go and you look at this, you had people that had top security clearances that were not allowed to see the documents because they were so sensitive to america's national security. and understanding of other countries. we had information that most of the world didn't have. donald trump takes it out of the secure location. takes it out of the white house, where many of his cabinet officials wouldn't even have the clearance to see it.
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and he takes it down to his beach side resort. shoves it in a box. shoves it into a room that people could have access to. >> well, who knows what's to come of these documents over time. but here's what we do know. there is absolutely no denial, coming from trump's team or trump himself, that he had these documents that do not belong to him. >> right. >> in his possession. >> and they still haven't explained. nobody on his team has explained. no republican in congress has explained. donald trump himself has not explained. why did he have top secret documents in his beach side resort? why did he -- why did he steal them from the white house? why did he remove them improperly? >> what was he doing with them? >> not one explanation. they attack others. when they find out that it's really bad news and the world gets around trump world to other
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republicans, hey, listen, this is tough, you may not want to talk about it, it's worse than you think. then they start making up things about the irs wanting to go to iowa to gun people down. it happens the morning after they get news that this is really bad. they're wildly doing whatever they can to distract. and not answer the question at the heart of this -- why did he remove highly classified documents, why did he receive top secret documents from the white house? when he knew, people around him knew, that he breaking the law. >> let's bring in the host of "way too early" white house chief and politico jonathan lemire. nbc news justice reporter ryan riley. and former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor barbara mcquade. glad to have you all on. >> barbara, break this all down for us. if "the washington post" reporting plays out correctly, what are the consequences of having top secret documents that
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even people, some of the most highest ranking people inside of his white house and the national security apparatus would not have clearance to see these documents. >> well, joe, i think there are two things about this that are very significant. one is regardless of classification level, it is clear now that this relations to national defense information. and that's the language of the espionage act. so, donald trump can claim to have declassified documents all day. he might even have been successful, and that would be no defense to the claim. the other thing that i think is significant about this is it makes it almost impossible for the justice department to decline to bring criminal charges. you know, we talk about how they exercise discretion, sometimes, there are technical violations but unless there are aggravating factors sometimes they'll decline and just get their documents back and be on their way. something as egregious as this it would be impossible for them to decline. one other thing i want to say,
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joe, i think there's speculation by trump's lawyers who are hollering that this is a leak by the government. i think it's highly unlikely in such a sensitive case. in my experience, when leaks came out, it was not government officials identified in reporting, it's people familiar with the investigation. most often, it is a witness who is offended at what is happening, wants to deflect any information from themselves and shares that information with the media. >> ryan, to barbara's first point about the justice department, even based on what we know publicly, based on this "washington post" reporting and everything else that we've seen, the photograph and what was insides of mar-a-lago, what is the pace of the investigation now? and isn't there just supreme pressure on merrick garland and the justice department to bring some charge against donald trump? again, we don't even know what they have privately in their investigation that we haven't seen. but even based on what we've seen with our own eyes publicly. >> well, you know, they argue that the early stages of this investigation is something they
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made clear in the court filings but the decision on the special master really does put a hamper on this ongoing probe, at least on a temporary basis. it doesn't completely shut down the investigation, of course, but it can't look at any materials. sort of this really unprecedented essentially injunction against the executive branch that properly seized document governments after proving to a jump they have probable cause to believe that donald trump possessed the documents that they wasn't supposed to have and the fact that they're about to be true. one thing that i thought was interesting in the court filing that sort of got overlooked. last week, after this idea that donald trump had the initial subpoena, that subpoena had power to turn over documents that had any labeling on them that were declassified. we've heard one of the excuses from the donald trump camp these things were declassified. and that wouldn't even really matter, agency the justice department has pointed out
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because what they were searching for, and what that subpoena was about back in may and june is looking for anything that has labels of classified information. even if it was quote-unquote declassified by donald trump he still didn't obey the subpoena. and he had the documents. to hand them over, 38 documents, and lo and behold, he had 100 plus. the total scope is approaching 9,000 pages. we can get to 938 totally with classification markings. it's a boat load of government documents, over 11,000. add on to that, 11,000 was just in august alone, government documents that he was not supposed to have in his possession overall, willie. >> and so the big question is, if what does the special master mean if the doj finds that donald trump has secrets that perhaps the doj needs to act in
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defense of the country, does this special master get in the way of that? former attorney general bill barr, one of trump's fiercest defenders in office is questioning the judge's decision to appoint a special master. here's what he had to say on fox news. >> i think it was wrong. and i think the government should appeal it. it's deeply flawed in a number of ways. i don't think the appointment of a special master is going to hold up but even if it does, i don't see it fundamentally changing the trajectory. in other words, i don't think it changes the ball game as much as we'll have a rain delay for a couple of innings. i think that the fundamental dynamics of the case are sad, which is the government has very strong evidence of what it really needs to determine whether charges are appropriate. which is government documents were taken, classified information was taken and not handled appropriately. and they are looking into, and there's some evidence, to suggest that they were deceived.
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>> those comments come after what he said on friday on fox news that the fbi search of mar-a-lago was justified. >> no. i can't think of a legitimate reason why they should have been -- could have been taken away from the government, if they're classified. i frankly are skeptical of this claim that i declassified everything, you know. because, frankly, i think it's highly improbable. and second, if in fact he sort of stood over scores of boxes not knowing what was in them and said i hereby declassify everything in here, that would be such an abuse that shows such recklessness that it's almost worse than taking the document. i think the driver on this from the beginning was, you know, loads of classified information sitting in mar-a-lago. people say this was unprecedented. well, it's also unprecedented for a president to take all of
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this classified information and put it in a country club, okay? and how long is the government going to try to get that back? they jawbone for a year. they were deceived on the voluntary action taken. they went and got a subpoena, they were deceived on that, they feel. and the facts are beginning to show they're being jerked around. so how long, how long do they wait? >> yeah, and the facts are starting to show, joe, that if you're in the department of justice and you're investigating this situation, and there is a pressing situation, a pressing concern, a pressing question as to why this former president who has said many times that he would do nefarious things with information. he has said that himself. this is not me projecting. he would take dirt on a political rival from the leader of a foreign country to bring him down.
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he has said that openly himself. so, you have a former president who is loose. and i say that very carefully, loose, with private classified information. who doesn't care about boundaries or parameters. or potentially even laws. does the doj sit back and wait for an election to go by and a special master to sit through everything? or are they compelled to move forward? i think that's an interesting question. >> well, as barbara said, there are -- despite the fact there are many of us, and i count myself as one of those, though i know many people watching would disagree with me, who i count myself as one of those deeply, deeply disturbed by past presidents. being indicted. past presidents being tried. i do think despite all of richard nixon's crimes that gerald ford did the right thing.
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we get to a point, though in this case, and jonathan lemire, we get to that point where there is starting, at least among legal experts, for there to be a consistency on the right, the center and the left. that what was done was so egregious, was such a violation of what presidents have done in the past. >> and presently. >> and was so unprecedented, there does seem to be a consensus coming from the right. i've read op-eds saying donald trump is going to be convicted because it's in the "new york post" from andrew mccarthy, "the new york times," we've heard it from bill barr on fox news several times that this is
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pretty much an open and shut case. and maybe, just maybe, that is the consensus, at least among legal experts on both sides of the ideological divide that makes this -- makes this a little more possible for the justice department to move forward with charges, without them being blasted as being political by both side -- by one side or the other. at this point, as barbara said, a very long windup here just to say, i agree with barbara. donald trump has gimp merrick garland no choice but to bring charges against him in this case. >> yeah. charges against the former president would be unprecedented. but the more it's talked about the more it injects in the bloodstream of the national consciousness. it becomes normalized. it becomes a little less
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stunning. we're hearing it from left, center and right. hey, william barr, welcome to resistance. and the venues, fox news, now we're hearing voices break through there. barr is a respectable voice. he used to back up people who worked there. but saying his fbi agents not only behavd appropriately, but donald trump behaved inappropriately. and sigh know there's potentially violence fueled by some on the right if trump were indicted. >> lindsey graham. >> lindsey graham in particular. i go back to what someone close at the white house said a few weeks ago, they're obviously trying to keep their distance from this. they said, merrick garland, much to the frustration of democrats moving slowly is trying to be as apolitical as possible but the
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fact that he ave the okay for the search sort of crosses the threshold, at least opens the door to charges. if he was never going to charge donald trump he wouldn't have oaked the search. he wouldn't have taken that step. the fact that he did means this is in play. we are just two months from the midterms. though trump not technically on the ballot, he leans over the republican party. he would be perceived as very political if charged between now and election day. but this is on the table. maybe not in november, or december, the likelihood of charges against trump only goes up. >> barbara, talk about timing if you would. >> would the doj care about that? >> obviously, donald trump is not on the ballot in november. but he is the head of the republican party still, if you look at any pole. if you talk to any republican leader, they'll say he's still the de facto leader of the republican party. do you suspect the cause of that, because we're past labor
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day in an election year, that regardless of what a special master did or didn't do the justice department would wait until after the election to bring charges? >> yeah, we're in a gray area with regard to the doj policy. the doj policy really just says that prosecutors should never take investigative action for the purple of influencing an election. most prosecutors read that more broadly to include even activity that will have the effect of influencing an election. and so typically, about 60 days before an election, prosecutors will cool off and stand down. and not take action against someone who is on the ballot. so, technically, there's no reason to refrain from taking action to donald trump right now. but as you say, i think in light of his role as the leader of the republican party, as someone who has endorsed candidates across the country, it might be out of an abundance of caution that they would choose not to engage in investigative activity
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overtly against donald trump at this stage. i think they've got to continue this investigation. i think they've got to continue to litigate but there's an awful lot that can be done behind the scenes like putting witnesses in front of a grand jury and connecting interviews. none of those are prohibited. finally charges might be a bridge too far but i don't know that they'll be ready before november anyway. so i think it's unlikely we'll see charges before the election but unless the special master really slows things down. this is not the kind of investigation that takes months and years to put together. they really have most of the facts they need now. they got enough facts to get in the door at mar-a-lago with probable cause. i think they would need to button down additional witnesses but it's a case you can get your arms around. so, i don't see an indictment years off. i see it months off, maybe the end of this year. still ahead on "morning joe," a pardon from then president trump may have saved steve bannon from federal charges but not state prosecution. what the former trump strategist
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is saying about the imminent charges from the manhattan district attorney's office. plus, surveillance video shows a pair of fake trump electors visiting a georgia elections office. along with two tech consultants who supported 2020 fraud claims. it's raising new concerns about a data breach. we'll dig into that new reporting. also ahead, a january 6th rioter who was turned in by his ex-girlfriend, after calling her a, quote, moron for not believing donald trump's lies about the 2020 election has been sentence. we'll take a look at those new charges. and former secretary of state hillary clinton shares her thoughts on the ongoing house investigation into the january 6th attack. what she had to say about that and more. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.
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go triple. go trelegy. ask your doctor about trelegy today. coming up at the bottom of the hour at the white house on a wednesday morning. nearly two years after he was pardoned by then president trump until a federal fraud case, steve bannon is expected to face a new criminal indictment, this time in new york. "the washington post" reported overnight the former trump strategist will surrender to new york state prosecutors tomorrow. the manhattan district attorney's office would not confirm or comment on that reporting when asked by nbc news. but in a statement last night, bannon confirmed the manhattan's d.a. office has, quote, decided to pursue phony charges against me 60 days before the midterm election. he went on to write, this is nothing more than a criminal
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political weaponization of the justice system. federal prosecutors say bannon pocketed $100 million in the scheme and pardoned by president trump in the case. presidential pardons, though, only extend to federal charges in cases, not the state ones like here. so, barbara mcquade, people remember two summers ago when steve bannon was pulled off a yacht somewhere and brought in on the federal charges of pocketing $1 million on what he had pitched and others had pitched in effort to build the wall. it was not that, according to federal prosecutors. he was pardoned by donald trump but now the manhattan's d.a.'s office is bringing him in on a state charge. so, how does this play out? how is it different than the federal charge? and what do you expect to see here? >> so, this is a great opportunity by the manhattan
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d.a. to see justice served that far donald trump swooped in and pardoned steve bannon before he ever went to trial. i think it's very likely that the case will succeed if the evidence has been there. of course, it hasn't been tested in court but the case bought preempted by donald trump's marred before. one thing that's interesting in the case, willie, you may remember they tried to do this with paul manafort. paul manafort had been convicted of fraud charges, donald trump pardoned him at the end of the administration. and the manhattan d.a.'s office charged him with similar state version of those same crimes. in that case, those charges were dismissed. and the appellate court said they were brought under double jeopardy. new york's law is much more forgiving, more generous to defendants than most double jeopardy laws but here the situation is different because steve bannon never went to trial. so he's not been put in jeopardy, unlike paul manafort who was convicted in a jury trial. so, i think for that reason, this is a clean charge, it will
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not be upended the way the manafort charges were. and as long as the evidence supports it, i think this case will go to trial and the jury will decide his fate. >> and the manhattan d.a.'s office picked up on this case pretty quickly after former president trump pardoned bannon. former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade, thank you. good to hear before you. mika. also, newly obtained surveillance video from georgia shows a fake elector escorts members of a tech firm into the coffee county election office in january 2021, moments before election day was breached. in the video you can see the then chairwoman of the coffee county gop cathy latham. >> look up, there's a camera above you. >> holding, opening the door for members of sullivanstrickler, a data security company hired by
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attorney sidney powell the day after the insurrection. additional individual yes taken outside the county office, cyberninja doug logo and jeff lundberg also visiting that same office a few times later in january 2021. this is all part of the breach of voter data. latham is under investigation for falsely signing paper that false falsely lost the election. the data firm refused nbc news to their lawyers and declined to comment. >> you know, willie, i just got to say. >> it's incorrect. >> when you look at all of these people, breaking all of these laws, all over the country, thinking that they're -- that they live in a world that's not
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only opposed fact world, but a post-law world. and they really believed because donald trump always seemed to get away with breaking the law. that they could just break the law. and now we're seeing -- >> for him. >> -- that actually, they're all feeling gravity's pull. that this was not a vacation from history. this is not a vacation from criminality. if you broke the law. >> from our elections process. >> yeah, well, from our elections process, from many processes. that there are actually, i think for millions and millions of americans that probably don't even like what joe biden is doing right now, this is a relief, this is a relief that actually in america, if you break the law, you still -- there are consequences. i know the republican party
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wants to defund the fbi. i know the republican party doesn't care if cops are beaten up on capitol steps within an inch of their life. i know the republican party talks about rioting in the streets if the head of their party is actually held to the same legal standard of everybody else. but i think it's a relief for a lot of independents, a lot of swing voters, a lot of people who aren't a member of either tribe. >> or a cult. >> that, my god, laws still matter in this country. and these people are getting rolled up by authorities for going out of their way to breaking the law. whether it was battering and abusing cops on january 6. trying to beat them to death with american flags. or whether it's, you know, and it's not just criminal. it's also civil. if you lie about election workers, you're going to pay the
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consequences. like there are actually guard rails in america's democracy, even if donald trump tried to convince millions of americans that there were not. >> you're exactly right. and donald trump gave them in their eyes permission and license to go break the law, whether it was bussing into the capitol and beating up cops and going to look for nancy pelosi and mike pence. they thought they were on a mission for donald trump. the same goes for the local officials. we focus on donald trump leading this coup rightly so, thought there are people like this woman holding the door in georgia. there are people in pennsylvania and michigan, actively working, sometimes, elected officials, actively working to help trump donald trump with his coup. to your point, joe, the woman holding the door to tamper with election machines and equipment she is the target of an investigation in the state of
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georgia. there will be consequences for holding that door and trying to help donald trump pull off a coup. for more on this, let's bring in investigative reporter at the "washington post," emma brown. emma, thanks for being with us this morning. let's talk about who that woman is there, she was the county chair for the republican party in georgia. and why she was letting those people in that building. >> sure, her name is cathy latham, as you said, she was at the time the county republican chair. she was also one of the quote-unquote fake electors in georgia. she was holding the door. she went out and greeted the team and led them inside. what her lawyer told us, she had nothing to do with authorizing or participating in any copying of sensitive or protected voter software. but she was there. and she did -- you know, you can see on the video, she led them in. in a deposition that we can talk about in a minute, she said she
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had been, you know -- she recalled being there briefly that afternoon, after teaching a full day of classes at the high school. this video shows she was there shortly before noon. that's the time that we see her greeting them there. >> look. obviously, these are only allegations. we have video of her opening the door. what does the state have to prove, though, that she specifically was involved in this? do they believe that they can make her an accessory to a possible crime here? or is she just a person of interest because she's on the video? >> well, i think it's important to understand that this video surveillance actually came as a result of civil litigation. five years ago, voters in georgia and a nonprofit called the coalition for good governance sued state officials in georgia, because they were concerned about the security of georgia's voting system. and in recent months, they've issued a flurries of subpoenas
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and taking a bunch of depositions. and it's really because of those efforts that we know what we know. about what happened in coffee county. so they are continuing to pursues that a civil matter because they're concerned that this breach, the copying of basically all of the software components and data used in dominion's software across georgia creates a problem for elections. that continues only recently is that a matter of investigators and the georgia bureau of investigation. and fani willis, in her much broader inquiry into trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election. >> just because you're on a video didn't make you guilty, but certainly for the investigation. >> talking with legal experts
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about all of the different challenges facing former president trump, a lot of them say watch what comes out of fulton county. watch. >> georgia is a real problem. i'll tell you, the fake electors are also a real problem, not just for donald trump, but for others involved. "the washington post's" emma brown. >> thank you very much. >> greatly appreciate it. also, a january 6th rioter who was turned in by his ex after he called her a moron has been sentence to nine months in federal prison. >> not for calling her a mmoron. >> no. the d.a. complaint reveals richard michetti was arrested in february after he sent his ex-girlfriend a text message calling her a moron for not believing that the election was stolen. and michetti admitted he went inside the u.s. capitol on
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january 6th 2021 and pleaded guilty to a felony count of obstruction of an official proceeding in may. federal prosecutors say michetti personally confronted police and encouraged other rioters who were assaults officers. my lord. >> yeah, ryan, it really is remarkable, following your reporting, just following your reporting, following your twitter feed it is remarkable how the justice department, how the fbi is just continuing every single day to go after these people that these rioters got into the capitol. that were beating up and abusing police officers. battering cops. and trying to stop a legally -- constitutionally mandated action. it's jut every single day they keep finding these people. charging these people.
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and convicting these people. certainly, the cost for rioting at the capitol on january 6th continuing to have consequences for those who are engaged in the unlawful behavior. >> that's right, you know, we're very closely approaching 900 cases overall. people who have been arrested by the fbi. in connection with january 6th. we've seen over 350 guilty pleas and i would caution there's hundreds more of these cases to go because the fbi has the names of additional people. a lot of that have come from online sleuths who have not yet been arrested. if you go to the fbi's website of who have alleged to have assaulted cops who still haven't been arrested. it's an overwhelming investigation for the fbi and doj. they just got a new batch of assistant u.s. attorneys come in to help out with the cases i think they're back to jump-start this a little bit.
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it's a long process in the federal system, as we all know, being aware in the past couple years, covering a number of federal investigations, this process can take a very long time. the resources are really an issue here. and that's why doj has been requesting in the new budget a lot more resources to go towards this. they need additional federal prosecutors because, remember, they've gotten people from all over the country. a lot of u.s. attorney's offices have put up people, put up some of their federal prosecutors to help out and pitch in, in these cases but it really is just pretty overwhelming. it's not just charging these folks, you have to see these cases all the way through. and it can take upwards of a year. right now, there's three folks on trial, who were in that tunnel, during some of the most violent acts in january 6, pressing their case to a judge. i think we'll get a verdict in that case next week. this case continues to grind on. so it's one of those things
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where, you know, the wheels of justice can grind very slowly. but we're moving forward here, definitely here, joe. >> nbc news justice department ryan reilly, thank you for your reporting this morning. and coming up, the warning from a nuclear watchdog, after touring that russian-controlled power plant in ukraine. plus, why a band of fighters from belarus is taking up arms in ukraine. and applebaum joins us with the cover story. also, ahead, we're joined by the ambassador in the united states for the first new day for britain's new prime minister first day in office. ♪♪ giorgio, look! the peanut butter box is here. ralph, that's the chewy pharmacy box with our flea and tick meds.
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xfinity customers join xfinity rewards and get an early access code to play the open beta. early access begins september 16th, first on playstation. visit the united nations nuclear
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watchdog agency is urging russia and ukraine to establish a nuclear safety and security protection zone around europe's largest nuclear power plant that's in ukraine. the agency says russia's ongoing assault has caused damage around that plant that says there is an urgent need for immediate measures to prevent a nuclear accident. inspectors say they found damage to a build which contained fresh nuclear fuel and solid radioactive waste. joining us former nato allied supreme commander james stavridis. he's chief analyst. and staff writer, anne applebaum. good morning to you both. admiral, i want to begin with you on zaporizhzhia, on that nuclear plant. you're writing about that, you've been thinking about that, calling it a ticking time bomb. what is the real risk here and what is putin's strategy in handling that and effectively threatening the west with it?
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>> the risk is very high. look, i commanded a nuclear aircraft carrier task group. i slept on top of six nuclear reactors. i slept very well. because we had safe guards in place. we knew what we were doing, we weren't in a combat zone. here you have the chance of a meltdown at the very dark end of the speck trup or an artillery strike that takes out, for example, spent uranium can release radio activity as well. so the risks, willie, are very high. and the question is, why is putin doing this, i think number one, he wants to scare the europeans. number two, he wants to use this zone as kind of a safe harbor from which he can launch attacks, thinking probably correctly the ukrainians are not going to continuously bombard this area. and you're showing containers here of spent uranium. there are several hundred there.
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and, thirdly, putin wants to get this plant off the ukrainian electric grid. in normal times it will provide maybe 20% of the electricity for the country of ukraine. so, it's a three-fer for him, don't look for him to ease up anytime soon. >> so, anne, you have one of the cover stories for "the atlantic" dedicated to the war in ukraine. your piece is entitled to bring change to belarus fighters. you wrote, gathered in a basement on a quiet tree-line street, the belarusians prepared to leave warsaw to join the ukrainian army look more like a bunch of computer programmers getting ready for a long car trip. hope is tempered with realism. they're headed for the front line of one of the most brutal wars of the 21st century and bolstered by desperation.
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the feeling that other bet roads to political change have disappeared. some arrive in warsaw from overnight buss from belarus with no money and no plans, other than to join the ukrainian army. they believe if they can lean hard on the scales of history and help the ukrainians win, then both russia and its belarusian set trap will be far weaker. they could pay a high price, not just with their time and effort, with their lives. on june 26th, the commander of one of the belarusian battalions died during the battle for lysychansk. if they lose and it will be a dictatorship. i'll never forget it was petro
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sheko saying they're fighting for the safety of the world if people would listen. >> right, and we had george packer on yesterday talking about -- on the same issue, talking about that green beret from texas who said, this is pretty simple, when you break it all down, these people are fighting for their freedom. they're fighting to not be slaves to russia. at the end of the day, though, it's not just the ukrainians, is it? >> no. the meeting with the other russians, first, i met them first on their way to kyiv when they were still in warsaw getting ready to go. then i saw later, i went to ukraine in july, and i saw some of them training, it's very moving. and they're fighting for another country. a foreign country, but they're doing so because they believe that defending ukraine is an absolutely necessary step on the
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road to liberating their own country. and you can say that, several countries in the region. the war in ukraine is a real hinge, it's a turning point. it's the reason why some countries will stay free, you know, or why some might fall again under dictatorial rule. russia's imperial reach in the region, it's not just russia, it's not just ukraine. it reaches into belarus. and they, you know, threaten, you know, the state of politics everywhere in the whole region. >> hey, anne, it's jonathan. first i want to have a little breaking news here. just a short time ago, the kremlin put out that vladimir putin will be meeting with china's xi jinping next week. their first meeting since the war began. so there's certainly still a close relationship between those two nations. but it's another alliance i want you to weigh in on, that's how europe remain banded together to support what we're seeing here in kyiv.
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it's staring, though, a very long and cold winter. i know you spent time over there. what's your sense of resolve, we've seen countries including the united kingdom, change as the war began. but it seems they're staying the course. as homes go up, get will get cold. >> so prices are rising, homes will get cold. just so people understand the way the gas distribution system works, it's not just there are high prices this winter, there could be actually shortages. there could be people, there are factories where factories don't work and homes aren't heated. what i'm hearing now from the major capitals is that most of europe is still dedicated to this cause, precisely what we started out talking about, namely, that people understand that this war has long consequences. and that losing it would put
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under threat, not just ukraine, not just belarus, but perhaps poland, perhaps the baltic states, in the longer run, even germany. so people understand this as a hinge moment. that doesn't mean there won't be political protests there are some already and there won't be politician around this but as i'm speaking now, the majority are still pledging continuing to support ukraine and the sanctions on russia. >> all right, "the atlanta ache's" anne applebaum, thank you so much. thank you for coming to discuss such a cover story and important new issue of "the atlantic" we greatly appreciate it. admiral stavridis, let me ask you about that relationship between china and russians, so special that the russians have to get missiles from north korea, instead of china. how did that strike you, that they had to go to north korea of
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all countries, buy north korean -- i don't think so, instead of china. can you help us sort through the very complicated relationship between russia and china right now? >> yes, if your phone a friend arms dealer is kim jong-un you're probably shopping in the wrong arms bazaar. and that is not going to be a case for advancement for putin's armies. look, what's happening here, joe is president xi wants to be supportive of putin. he has a relationship with putin. they are kind of special friends, as they both say. on the other hand, president xi doesn't want to go the full monty here. he doesn't want to provide high-end weapons. he doesn't want to be that phone-a-friend arms dealer. and i think he's using kim jong-un as kind of a cat's paw.
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and the bottom line here, you'll see this as decades unfold, putin is taking russia down a path where it will be a very junior partner to this larger chinese enterprise. the chinese will take advantage of russia again and again and again. i think putin who at times can be a smart tactician is a terrible strategist. hence, his failure on the attack on ukraine. and the path he's going down now with china who is not going to bail him out ultimately. >> former nato supreme allied commander james stavridis. thank you very much. i wasn't sure if he got cut off there. we appreciate you coming on this morning. >> and still ahead, a dire warning from several defense officials. they say political polarization is straining the foundations of our military. we'll talk to one former defense secretary who signed that letter. plus, new polling shows the
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growing influence abortion rights is having on voters ahead of the midterms. and it may just slot a governor's race in one key state. "morning joe" is coming right back in two minutes. n two minut. ♪♪ do you want some more?
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is it your understanding that there were not doubts related to our nuclear capabilities or nuclear issues that had national security implications in the president's possession when the agents showed up at mar-a-lago? >> that's correct. i don't believe they were. and -- >> well, do you know for a fact? do you know for a fact they were? have you spoken to the president about it? >> i have not specifically spoken to the president about what nuclear may or may not have been in there. i don't not believe there were any in there. the legal team has done a very thorough search and turned over, we've been very cooperative with the biden administration and the doj and turned over everything that we have. >> such a thorough search that
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they even brought in, willie, lawyers from civil trials in new york unrelated to the fbi search to make sure that other people that didn't have classified clearance, top secret clearance, also rummaged through state secrets that even other members of a president's cabinet would not have been allowed to see. >> yeah. and this argument that the president mistakenly took some things home and we turned them over as soon as we realized it was a problem is just a lie. it's not passing anyone's smell test at all because we know it was more than a year of obstruction of the national archives. they can put people of the trump family saying that the fbi ransacked the documents and threw the documents all over the floor and effectively staged a crime scene that we heard from one of the trump sons yesterday which we know that was just an
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evidence exhibit that we've seen over and over again over history. they're throwing up smoke screens but as bill barr said, the former attorney general, no one's buying it. >> and still, let's just underline it, every time we have to actually regurgitate a lie told by somebody close to donald trump or donald trump himself, still all of these weeks later, nobody's explained why donald trump improperly, most likely, illegally removed top secret documents. >> yeah. >> from a government facility where they were required to stay and took them to a country club in florida. bill barr has been very direct about it. but, you know, it's obvious, he took them improperly. he mishandled them. the doj has him dead to center. that's according to his former attorney general.
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that's according to people writing op-eds in the "new york post" in "the new york times." and they've come to the conclusion that the doj has a case against donald trump. >> donald trump has not denied he has documents he should not have. what you heard is one of donald trump's attorneys after "the washington post" reported shortly after the search at mar-a-lago that investigators were looking for nuclear documents. "the washington post" has now advanced that reporting with sources that say investigators apparently found what they're looking for. let's get to that reporting from "the washington post" people familiar with the matter tell the paper a document describing the foreign nuclear secrets were one of the top items seized from mar-a-lago a month ago. the post did not identify the
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government, but there are only eight other countries with nuclear capabilities. there they are. >> and you can also say, there are other countries that are pursuing nuclear weapons, have nuclear ambitions. it could also be iran. >> sources also did not specify where inside the former president's beach house that the document was found. and the days after the fbi searched, the post reported that they were looking for nuclear documents. >> by the way, i love that description, a beach house. i see a straw house, listening to jimmy buffet, music. >> there are a lot of people that visit there. >> people from all over. >> from all over the world, walking around that place. >> some people there go to
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parties that obviously shouldn't be there. >> he lets anyone in. >> we've seen that in the past. we're proof of that. >> we're living proof. >> but, willie, you have people that have actually gone in there that have raised concerns in the past while he was president. this is a guy -- again, who would blurt out top secret information around the table at mar-a-lago. >> for tax breaks. >> yeah, he famously went a couple months after becoming president sitting on the patio with shinzo abe, the prime minister of japan, talking about a nuclear test by north korea, just throwing that out to memberships at different tables because he worked the room. so, we know he's a little casual with the stuff. picking up on "the washington post" story, people familiar with that search tell the paper some of the tom secret documents seized from mar-a-lago detail u.s. secrets so closely guarded that many national security
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officials even lack the clearance to review them. the former spokesman responded to the latest reporting attacking "the washington post" calling it it the arm of the biden administration. the reporting in the post has not yet been confirmed by nbc news. the justice department has declined to comment. let's bring into our conversation former defense secretary william cohen. also with us msnbc contributor, mike barnicle. and politico's jonathan lemire. secretary cohen, let me ask you a simple question, if you had tucked even one top secret document in your briefcase when you were defense secretary and taken it home with you, what would have been the consequences? >> well, if i had still been in office, i think the consequences would have been limited, but the practice was for me to never take anything home. every time a touched a top secret document in my office or in the car in the limousine taking me to the office.
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it was always under watch of someone in the car. and i had to turn it over immediately upon going into the defense department. so, i might have had a document at my home, provided there was someone there to take it back to the pentagon where it could be safe put. once i left the pentagon there was no taking anything out. >> and so what is your reaction when you just hear the detail, the list of hundreds of classified documents, the latest reporting from "the washington post" that donald trump now private citizen out of office had all of this at his beach resort in florida? >> i think you've been asking it's question why. i don't think it matters why. the fact that he had those documents in his possession is offense enough, subject to perhaps criminal prosecution. if i had had those in my house after leaving office, i would be in hand cuffs by this time. so, i think that the justice department has gone out of its
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way to show deference to the former president that no other president in history would have behaved in this fashion. or have behaved in this fashion. i think the justice department going about it very methodically and very deferentially. i think that time has come to an end. we go back to the january 6th committee where a judge, rudy, a very conservative judge, he said that donald trump is a clear and present threat to democracy. that's been confirmed over and over. the notion that the former president had highly classified documents in unsafe circumstances, or any circumstances, puts our nation at risk, potentially. so, i think there's no justification. there's no way they can say, oh, it was a mistake. i think that's been disproved. and anyone who says that i'd like to find out why.
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>> mr. secretary, you've had years of long service to the united states. and we thank you for that. and the united states senate, as well as secretary of defense. and you've recently cosigned a letter with several other former secretaries of defense outlining the need for some really strict civilian control of the military. to keep the military out of politics. my question to you is, were you surprised at all, during the past five years, that more former secretaries of defense or more former retired generals or whatever rank they have in the military service, did not speak out during the trump presidency about what they knew and saw and heard and witnessed a severe, severe lack of control of the president of the united states? >> i was not surprised because those in the military, especially those dealing at this level of security information, they are not inclined to speak
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out until it becomes so egregious that they have no choice either to speak out or to resign. we saw that with general mattis, he came to the point where he said i can no longer serve this president. i think it takes a lot on the reign of jim mattis' record and heroism to say i can't carry out this mission any longer because my world view is quite different than what the president doing. those to follow the lead and orders of the president of the united states, unless they deem them to be either illegal or so egregious that they can't in good conscience carry out the order. so it doesn't surprise me. it surprises me now that so many are stepping forward. if you go back on this, mike, right after the election, there were ten former secretaries of defense who wrote an open letter to the defense department saying don't get involved in partisan
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politics, because you may recall at that time there were rumors coming from michael flynn and others that the insurrection act could be invoked. so that the then president could take over the voting machines and alter the election. ten former secretaries of defense at that time were in a letter writing campaign. because just about a year ago, almost 100 national security officials, military and civilian, again, wrote an open letter that the january 6th insurrection constituted an undermining of democracy throughout the world. that we were being undermined ourselves, doing it to ourselves, where other countries could look and say, i guess democracy is not a role model we want to follow. a week or so ago, judge william webster, former cia director, fbi director, former appeal let judge contacted me and said can we write an op-ed to talk about what is happening to this
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country. that the president of the united states is putting a target on the backs of our fbi agents? we need to speak out against that. and now finally comes this month's recent letter that was initiated by general martin dempsey, because he said we're in exceptionally treacherous waters. and we need to clarify what the nature of this relationship is between our civilian leaders and our military. and it was just a 16-point presentation that you would give to a high school class. it was necessary to give that because what president trump, and again, this is not directed specifically at him, but i'm speaking for myself now, it is clear to me that president trump is doing grave damage to that civilian military relationship. and i think it was necessary. they felt, five former chairmen of joint chiefs felt compelled to join eight former secretaries of defense. i thought was unprecedented.
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>> mr. secretary, i want to underline something, and you can do it so much better than i've been able to do. i was just a member of the house of representatives, armed services committee, we would get briefings, classified briefings. and we always understood, and it was made very clear if we revealed that there would be legal consequences. my god, if i took a document back to my office or home, there would be ever reason to believe that washington would be knocking on my washington apartment within the day. and i would be questioned. and so, you've repeated the same thing. but i just -- it's important for me to ask you, in this way, because we do have people that watch this show that voted for donald trump that support donald trump. that still think that somehow this is a deep state conspiracy
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against donald trump. that your letter, that there's all some sort of deep state fight against donald trump. when in fact all we're talking about is the fact that the law should apply to everyone equally. equal justice under the law. you were a member of the bangor city council. you were a member of the united states house of representatives. you were a member of the united states senate, you were secretary of defense. on all levels. if you had taken a fraction of what donald trump removed from a government building of government documents, secret documents, classified documents, top secret documents, could you please explain how you, a former cia directors or former heads of the national security agency
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would be thrown in jail? >> yes. i think anyone other than the former president currently, at least, would be behind bars for doing any of what you just outlined. i want to go back to just raise the issue about this notion that the former president just waved a wand, as if he's a jedi warrior and declassified all this information. i want everybody to think about this, we spend and the number is pretty easy to remember, $777.7 billion on national security, our defense department. of that, almost $780 billion, a good chunk of that also is for a collection of information, intelligence. because we have the finest fighting force in the world. but as good as we are, if we are blind or can't hear, that
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fighting force is there in grave peril. so we need all-around vision, all-around hearing, to know where we are in the world what is coming at us in what direction. and the notion that a president can say i'm declassifying it all and give that information to the north koreans to his friend president putin, to the chinese, to iran, that's absurd that he would carry -- i totally declassified it. so, you're opening up a $777 billion budget to your adversaries? it's absurd. >> mr. secretary, i'm curious just can the doj wait for a special master to sift through all of this? i mean, you mentioned the egregiousness of what has been discovered so far. i can't think of anything, can you think of anything, more illegal, egregious and dangerous to our country than a loose-lipped former president
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having nuclear information on a foreign country? i mean, isn't this something that requires swift action? >> well, as i mentioned before, the justice department is going very cautiously on this. given the political world that we're living in. in that letter that was initiated by general dempsey and others, he said we're in exceptionally treacherous waters. and so, we are trying to take into account the political environment in which we're now being forced to operate. it's never happened like this before. i think you can go back to the days of joe mccarthy. this is joe mccarthy-ism on steroids. no president in the history of our country has ever deliberately tried to attack and undermine the institutions of law enforcement. certainly, at the fbi, of the justice department, our
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intelligence community. don't forget former president trump undermined the entire intelligence community in favor of russian president putin. so the damage is being done. and has been done. and that's why i quoted from joe who will said the former president constitutes a clear and present danger to democracy and this country. >> mr. secretary, when word broke of these documents that were recovered there at mar-a-lago, there were two main camps of concern. one, we've been talking about these nuclear secrets. the other, human intelligence. the idea of american and allied assets who have been overseas doing some of the most dangerous work that we ask anyone to do for the united states. what is your level of concern that some of those agents, potentially, could be compromised or endangered because of what president trump has at mar-a-lago? >> well, the level of anxiety always has to be high.
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the last date of the information that might have been in -- or was -- wasn't in the presence of the former president but it could be related to covert actions that have been long past. but in the covert actions you may identify the identity of the operatives that we have. also the militants, they front lines, they're deployed overseas, to the extent there's any information that would compromise their security then we're contributing to the loss of their lives or limbs. it's not like by the way, the president happened to throw documents in a briefcase. it's not like that. 18 months, tugging and pulling to get that information back, because of the danger it does pose to the nation's security. >> former defense secretary william cohen, thank you very much for being on the show this
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morning. we appreciate it. thank you. and still ahead on "morning joe," carol leonnig, the reporter behind that explosive "washington post" on materiel. >> and the ambassador with liz truss as the new prime minister. and later, 43% of americans think we're headed towards a civil war. but a pulitzer prize winning reporter reveals why the january 6th insurrection made him less worried that will happen. and up next, a new analysis from the anti-defamation league reveals hundreds of registered members of far right europe the oath keepers are in positions of power in local governments, police forces and the military. we'll talk about the implications of that when "morning joe" comes right back.
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♪♪ 26 past the hour. the co-founder of the group cowboys for trump has been removed from his position as otero county commissioner over his involvement in the capitol riot. a new mexico judge ordered troy griffin be barred from his post effective immediately. and banned him from seeking further public office, citing the 14th amendment which bars those who have taken oaths to uphold the constitution, from holding federal or state office if they engage in insurrection or rebellion. griffin was convicted in federal court earlier this year of a misdemeanor for entering the capitol grounds on january 6. he was sentence to 14 days and given credit for time served. >> so that's a fascinating -- willie, that's a fascinating
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decision by a judge in new mexico. i'm sure it's going to be appealed, but obviously, it would have had implications for the guy he's standing next to there in the oval office if the 14th amendment can be used, to bar somebody from public office for a misdemeanor. obviously, that would have -- and if that were held up by the high court. that would obviously have implications for donald trump. >> yeah, as you say, i wonder if that will hold up in court. because now you open yourself up for any misdemeanor in office. that is a long list of crimes for people running. the report is out with an in-depth analysis of oath keepers membership from a year ago which finds there were hundreds of names on elected officials, military offices and
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members of the military. for more on the new report, ceo and national director of the anti-defamation league jonathan greenblatt joins us now. jonathan, thank you for joining us. take us through the report and what were more of the troubling aspects that you have found? >> sure, thanks for having me, willie. i will tell you, this is a chilling reports the leaks of which we've never released before. last september, 80 analysts were able to get our hands on a data leak of the oath keepers' membership rolls. there were 38,000 names that were essentially pulled from their records and put out in the open. our analysts pulled out the information for the oath keepers to pull it back. we used open source techniques, including public records, social media. and other methods to review
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every single name that we found. and i must say, we thought the oath keepers were a threat, when they rampaged through the capitol on january 6th. but we had no idea just how deep the threat truly is. we found hundreds of active law enforcement members were a part of the oath keepers. ten chiefs of police. 11 sheriffs. dozens and dozens of active members of the u.s. military. some 80 individuals who were running for public office. you know, almost two dozen of whom made it through the primaries and will be up this fall. and, look, you might not know all of these names, many people might know arizona state senator wendy rogers, who still months after the terror attack at the capitol proudly proclaimed that
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she was an oath keeper and supported the group. but i'm talking about a county commissioner in nevada. a town justice in new york. a firearms ininstructor in pittsburgh. a pastor in north carolina. and it goes on and on and on. these are individuals with access to implements. these are individuals with resources and training, and these are individuals who have shown us they're willing to commit acts of sedition and violence against the u.s. government. >> jonathan, are you surprised at the extent of the membership of the oath keepers and other far right groups who apparently or maybe they do know that the underpinnings and philosophies of these groups are rooted in race and religion. in other words, they're against anybody who isn't white. and jewish people obviously have
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a target on their backs, based upon their philosophies. does this surprise you at all that the membership is so diverse in a sense? >> it somewhat does. i mean, look, right wing extremism is a spectrum. we know that, mike. and so there are white supremacists, there are sovereign citizens and indeed armed militia groups. organizes like the proud boys. the head of it is hispanic. indeed there is some diversity among the oath keepers but what is meaner frightening that they for a long time have prioritized and actively recruited law enforcement in the military, we thought they weren't being successful. we were wrong. we have a problem with an enemy inside our own ranks, who has committed, as the oath keepers do, to uphold a higher oath, not
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to have fidelity to our commander in chief, or necessarily to the jurisdictions where they work. but to the mere notion of the constitution and a whole obligation that, again, puts minorities, puts democrats and ordinary citizens in crosshairs. >> ceo of the anti-defamation league, jonathan greenblatt, thank you very much for coming on this morning. right now, the uk prime minister liz truss is facing her first round of questions from parliament. up next, the british ambassador to the u.s. joins us on how our special relationship with the uk could change under this new government. ent. it's the all-new subway series menu. twelve irresistible new subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet!
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36 past the hour. uk prime minister liz truss is taking questions right now from members of parliament.
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that's what you're looking at right now. it is her first full day in office. i love watching this. let's turn it up just a little bit. >> -- balancing the policies and i'm committed to following through and delivering four children. because what we know intervening early, helping children early is the best way to help those children have a successful childhood. and ultimately a fulfilled life. >> all right, bring it down. i want to bring in british ambassador to the united states karen pierce, it's good to have you back on the show, madam ambassador. >> thank you. >> what can we expect from liz truss' leadership, as she takes questions and embarks on her first day as prime minister? >> well, as you've seen, she's right in front of parliament today on her first full day. she made a speech yesterday outside of 10 downing street
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with heavy emphasis on the economy, getting it moving. on energy, finding ways to help people with their energy bills and secure future energy supplies. and also to sort out waiting lists in the nhs. she spoke to president biden yesterday. they had a very good warm conversation about what we can do together, on energy, on russia in ukraine. she also spoke to president zelenskyy. so, she's got a very busy time ahead. she really wants to do things to help people struggling with energy bills in the uk. but she's not going to neglect the international agenda. >> and how is she being received so far? >> extremely well. i think people saw a long leadership campaign over the summer in britain. it's very good that the government is back up in parliament, working hard, they're putting a lot of energy and effort into what to do about the economy. the effects of covid.
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the effects of russia's illegal invasion of ukraine, all demand attention, but she's also very keen working with the president to strengthen our democracy alliance, to find ways of pushing back on authoritarianism. like the biden administration, she does believe in order to be secure at home, we need to be secure overseas. so these going to be looking at all of these things. when she spoke to president zelenskyy, she pledged longtime support and further ways of squeezing the russians in ukraine. >> madam ambassador, good morning. as you hinted no short avenue here on the prime minister's plate here. the operation at home chief among them. but staying overseas, president biden, shall we say tolerated
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prime minister boris johnson in many way. with the new prime minister liz truss what is her hopes with meeting with president biden, the united nations general assembly back in new york. is there hopes that the two leaders could have that first meeting? >> in the phone call they had yesterday. they said they look forward to meeting each other soon. of course, they have already met. she met him last year when she came when boris johnson was prime minister. and they've met at a number of summits in europe, including the nato summit. whether or not she can travel to the u.s. later on in the september we wait to hear. as you'll see from her performance in parliament, she believes she's got a very heavy domestic agenda. wants to do lots of things on economy. on reform, on the nhs, on energy. so, we wait to hear what her travel plans might be for september. but i'm very sure she'll keep in close touch with the president,
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with the white house. officials talk all the time. and i say, they know each other well, and they share this belief that the uk/u.s. partnership and relationship should be used to push open societies and combat authoritarianism. and that's a very important shared goal. >> so, madam ambassador, thank you so much for being with us today. i wanted to just read you something from the "financial times" when it appeared that the prime minister was on her way to victory. we saw a lot of articles like this." financial times" says when the uk newly appointed foreign secretary liz truss met her u.s. counterpart antony blinken for the first time the conversation was far from diplomatic. truss questioned the special relationship between the two countries and said she's seen few tangible examples to support the idea that the relationship was particularly unique. could you -- cow give us your insights on critiques from
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"financial times" and others that she may have serious questions about how special our relationship is? >> well, i wouldn't normally dare query the "financial times" but i have to say, i was in that first meeting with secretary blinken. and it was a very warm meeting. and it talked about all the things that we wanted to do together. particularly building on this democratic global network that both governments are very interested in. so, i think we've told the f.t., we don't recognize that description. liz truss is an internationalist. she's been foreign secretary. before that, she was trade secretary. she has good relationships around the world. she wants to put a lot of effort into britain's relationships with countries such as those in eastern europe, such as those in the indo-pacific, and of course, we have the agreement with the
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australia and united states which she's been a champion of. but she's absolutely solid behind the special relationship. in fact, she knows america very well. she's been coming here for years. we had a number of very nice messages yesterday from members of congress. both parties, both republicans and democrats, and they all know her well and think highly of her. so, i'm very confident that the relationship will go. >> ambassador pierce, when you were in that meeting with secretary of state blinken did the northern ireland accords come up, and if they did come up, given the importance of northern ireland accords to president biden, what is prime minister truss' position on northern irelands accords? >> she and the president did discuss northern irelands yesterday. they pledged their support for the belfast good friday agreement. the priority of the british
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government is to protect the agreement. also to get the executive, if you like the local government up and running again. the northern ireland accords is critical to making that work. that's all about trade between the mainland uk and northern ireland. and also between northern ireland and ireland. that's a very important issue for us. it's a very important one for communities in northern ireland. things are not working at the moment. but the prime minister has been clear throughout that have very strong preference. it's a negotiated solution with the european union. we're looking at contingency legislation in the british parliament in case that's not possible but she's been very clear, she wants to negotiate a way if she can possibly have one. >> british ambassador to the united states, karen pierce, thank you very much. still to come on "morning
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joe," the new warning from school officials from across the country of the growing threat of cyber attacks. that report is next. time. it's life's most precious commodity, especially when you have metastatic breast cancer. when your time is threatened, it's hard to invest in your future. until now. kisqali is helping women live longer than ever before when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant... in hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's proven to delay disease progression. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain... a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain,
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♪♪ it's yet another rainy day in new york city. when will it stop? 7:49 here in the morning on the east coast. days after one of the country's largest school districts was targeted in a crippling ransomware attack, the federal government is worrying about a cybergroup targeting schools across the country. nbc's tom costello has the details. >> reporter: this morning, a new urgent warning from the federal government about the rise in cyberthreat against the nation's
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schools. the fbi and u.s. cyberagency has said a gang known as vice society has been targeted the education sector with ransomware attacks. it uses techniques to break in and recover data. it uses technology that decrypts information and isn't released until a ransom is paid. it comes on the second attack on the second largest attack over the weekend. los angeles school authorities say 93 thwarted the attack that was likely criminal in nature. >> lasd was attacked with a ransomware tool that temporarily disabled systems. >> reporter: the school district notified law enforcement. then took their system offline. >> by shutting down all the system, we were able to stop the propagation of this event. and restricting its potential damage. >> reporter: while the attack
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was carried out with a ransomware tool, the superintendent says the district has not received a ransom demand. and it's not clear who was responsible for the breach which is still under investigation. school officials say the attack disrupted access to email, computer systems and applications, forcing students and staff to reset their passwords. still, authorities say based on their preliminary review, the attack did not impact employee health care or payroll information. and safety and emergency mechanisms in schools were also unaffected. the fbi says the district's readiness for such an attack made all the difference. >> the quick response from the l.a. unified school district, both in their preparation and notification in bringing law enforcement in to solve this problem together is the key to success. >> nbc's tom costello reporting. so, guys, actually, the l.a. school district held up really well in this attack but is this just sick to freeze schools.
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and they do it over holiday weekends is one of the reasons they do it, they know it's understaffed that people are away. and generally, though they haven't yet in this case, asked for money, this is pure ransom and trying to shut down schools to do it. >> and it just continues, it shows the importance of cyber security for businesses. and this is -- things are only going to get more challenging, more difficult. so, let's make a hard turn. speaking of more challenging, more difficult. baseball teams in new york. so how about that for a hard turn. >> that's not a hard turn. >> no. >> falling flat, which really, mike barnicle -- no, it's the mets. >> not the mets? >> it's your emilia's mets. but the story is, it's a far different thing, mike, than what's happened to the new york yankees and the new york mets.
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the mets haven't been in a swoon so much as the fact that the atlanta braves, they're like -- they're like -- they're like the law enforcement dudes on horses in "butch cassidy and the sundance kid" every time i open my mlb app, braves 5-2, this team is insane. they just don't lose. >> no, it is amazing. the record over the past two or three weeks has been amazing. buck showalter is indeed probably looking over his shoulder saying who are those guys the way butch and sundance did in the movie. but the mets, the mets are going to be okay. they happen to have gone through an extended slump as you pointed out. it's the first one they've had this year. it comes on a very inopportune time. don't is degrom night in america. all americans will be watching
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jacob degrom on the mound against the pittsburgh pirates. and there's a possibility he could pitch a perfect game tonight. i'm not kidding about that. every time he takes the mound is the potential for a no hitter. >> i feel like you're jinxing him. >> no, no, he's extraordinary. he's just a joy to watch him. willie, i know we're required by law and by contract and also by local new york city ordinance to only talk about the american league east. that said, you look at the national league, and what a playoff it's going to be. look at the mets. who are extraordinarily hot. -- not the mets, the braves. look at the mets who are going to have an incredible rotation if everybody stays healthy. the cardinals have been hot. and, of course, the dodgers, just the best regular season team in baseball. any one of those four teams
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could get to the world series. >> yeah. we almost take the dodgers for granted at this point but they're having an incredible season absolutely running away with their division. best team in baseball, like you and mike both said i would not bet against the new york mets in the playoffs with scherzer and degrom. and the brave doing it without freddie freeman who went to the dodgers is tearing it up for them. and don't forget claire mccaskill's cardinals as well. the nationals great. a doubleheader against our beloved minnesota twins. let's hope that helps us a little bit and maybe aaron judge can swat one out in his efforts to catch the home run record. he's got 44 now got to get to 62 -- short math -- 27 or so games left in the season to break that american league record. >> yeah, the twins coming in on
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a silver platter for the yankees here, a doubleheader after yesterday's rainout. the red sox, though, are doing their part. they lost to the rays. rays keeping pace with the east. we're doing what we can to help the new york yankees be caught there. one word of caution on the mets. i agree, a wonderful story, they're going to the playoffs regardless. they do have a soft story coming up here, scherzer has an injury again. it cost him some games. if he can't go, as brilliant as degrom is, he's often hurt, too. that's the worry. what could be a magical season could come to a halt. certainly not rooting for that. but the braves, relentless, joe, absolutely relentless. all right. straight ahead, we have much more in the revelation that
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documents found in the search at mar-a-lago contained information on a foreign nation's nuclear capabilities. information that only top officials in our government are supposed to have access to. the reporter behind that story will join us. and later, how democrats are winning over the so-called meh voter. the voters that aren't into that presence of president bide could actually be the one who could tip it towards democrats. also ahead, a look at how maga republicans are the spitting images of the radicals in the 1950s. the writer of that article will explain that argument. and also gary hart, a former senator on how restoring a sense of the common good could help save our democracy. "morning joe" coming right back.
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i would not be honest if i didn't say i think there was a seditious conspiracy against the government of the united states. and that's a crime.
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>> led by donald trump? >> led by donald trump, encouraged by donald trump. was i happy when i beat donald trump by nearly 3 million votes but lost the electoral college? no, i was not happy. did i even for a nanosecond think i'm going to claim victory and try to get the democrats to certify the election? no! >> former secretary of state hillary clinton speaking out against donald trump and his role on the january 6 attack. she also explained the difference between the investigation into her private email server in 2016 and the ongoing investigation over trump's mishandling of classified documents. >> i think it's a really different comparison to what's going on here when it appears that the justice department and the fbi have been incredibly patient, quiet, careful until they finally, apparently, thought that national security was at stake. >> would you ever run for
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president again? >> no, no. but i'm going to do everything i can to make sure that we have a president who respects our democracy and the rule of law. and upholds our institution. >> what if donald trump runs again? >> he should be soundly defeated. it should start in the republican party. grow a back bone, stand up to this guy. heaven forbid he gets the nomination. he should be defeated and sent back to mar-a-lago. >> first of all, willie, a few things, again, trumpists will say, well, hillary clinton, she did the same thing. she suggested that the election -- hillary clinton immediately went out and conceded the election, like grown-ups do. like people who actually love their country more than their own political careers do. that's one thing. secondly, i keep going back to this statute, this u.s. statute.
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on seditious conspiracy. hillary clinton brought it up. i brought it up the day after. and i just want to be really quickly, really briefly, and people can judge whether this is what donald trump and the rioters did on january 6th. it's two or more persons in any state or territory or anyplace subject to the jurisdiction of the united states conspiracy to overthrow, put down or destroy by force the governor of the united states, or and i'm moving down here, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force, and this is the operate of language -- to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the united states. any law of the united states. so, they'll be fined under this title or imprisoned, not more than 20 years or both.
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it's very clear that that's exactly what was happening on january 6th. that's exactly what donald trump was trying to whip people into a frenzy about from the time he found out from his lawyers that they couldn't stop joe biden from being president. so, he angrily ran out of the white house -- or ran out oval office. and then tweeted it in the middle of the night. that january 6 was going to be wild. to come to washington, d.c. and then whipped them into a frenzy. time and time again, was fighting with his own secret service agents. wanted to go up, wanted to walk in the house chamber with rioters. i don't know, was he going to declare martial law, i don't know. whatever he was going to do, it appears to meet all four corners of the definition of seditious conspiracy under all the statutes. >> yeah. if you think back to the january
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6 committee, all of the evidence, all of the witness testimony we heard laid out very, very clearly in several weeks. and just listening to you read that decision you can flash through your mind about some of what was presented there, what donald trump did, how he led those people to the capitol, how he lied to them and sent them in. you may be on to something, joe. we'll let the legal system decide. it does seem to fit snugly, and listening to hillary clinton, you can't help think about all of the people on the apology tour, lindsey graham, or marco rubio, or ted cruz. when you go down the list with marco rubio, now serious that was and how that led to a presidential campaign for donald trump every rally there were
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chants of "lock her up," and send her to prison because she had the personal server in chappaqua. they're trying to restore it as a paperwork problem. they all know better but the hypocrisy is laid so bare when they speak about donald trump taking classified documents to his place at mar-a-lago. and obstructing for a year and a half efforts by the government to get them back. >> yeah, the new information revealed by "the washington post" this morning really makes their excuses to defy logic even more if possible. jonathan lemire and mike barnicle are still with us. joining the conversation we have professor at princeton universitier eddie glaude jr., and this morning, as i said, "the washington post" is reporting people familiar with the matter documents found during the search at mar-a-lago contained information on a
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foreign nation's nuclear capabilities. nbc news' kristen welker has the details. >> reporter: overnight, the search at mar-a-lago, not confirmed by nbc news including the nuclear capabilities were among the classified documents seized by the fbi agents. the post citing people familiar with the marry also reports the documents detailed top secret u.s. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them. the report says the documents contain information about such highly classified operations. they require special clearances on a need-to-know basis. not just top secret clearance. and they're often kept under lock and key. >> this in turn is, as i say, the holiest of holiest of secret which is nations strive very hard to protect.
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and to restrict access to. as we do in this country. >> reporter: the justice department and fbi declined to comment but overnight a spokesperson for former president trump tweeting, "the washington post" continues to serve as the propaganda arm of the biden administration. and instead of operating openly and honestly, they collude in every ending leaks and lies at the expense of the integrity of the fbi and doj. for his part, former president trump has dismissed as a hoax previous reporting that the fbi seized documents containing nuclear information. >> the shameful raid and break-in of my home at mar-a-lago was a travesty of justice. >> reporter: it comes as the justice department is deciding whether it will appeal a decision by a federal judge in florida to allow an independent observer to review the documents seized at mar-a-lago. the ruling, a win for mr. trump, could delay the government's investigation by weeks, if not
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longer. >> nbc's kristen welker with that report. and at the top of the fourth hour of "morning joe" we're going to speak with the co-author of the "washington post" report carol leonnig, we'll get into that. we want to bring in pulitzer prize journalist tom ricks author of "waging a good war" 19 another to 1968. we look forward to talking to tom in a few weeks when the book comes out but you mentioned the rioters. and we're looking at a column from the "washington post," you write in part, quote, the main things that give me hope arise from former president donald trump's attack on the electoral process. culminating in the january 6 assault on the capitol. at the time i feared that the unprecedented insurrection was the beginning of the sustained
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war on american democracy. yet nothing much happened. rather, with the executive branch crippled and the legislative branch divided, the judicial branch of the federal held the line. it was as if the american system had been subjected to a stress test. and albeit a bit wobbly passed. yes, we still have a long way to go. there are no signs of a national reconciliation in the offing. some trump formers no doubt will be elected to congress and to state offices this fall and control of both houses of congress is uncertain. but it is beginning to feel to me like the wave of hard right not conservative reaction has crested. >> so, tom, i go back to principles, which, of course, you began writing soon after donald trump was elected. and it seemed, going back to
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that book, that all of those hours, all of those days, all of those years that james madison read the classics to try to figure out what type of government to form that could withstand the test of time, actually was time well spent for, really, the creator of madisonian democracy. the system held perhaps by the various margins. but the federal judiciary, as i've said time and again, with federal society appointed judges often handing down the decision, the system held. >> it did. it was a shock. and i was worried that -- that january 6 was the beginning of a series of attacks. but instead, the attacks didn't happen. and the judges upheld the law. judges like rule of law. even if they're hard right. they generally, not always, will
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say, no, the law is the law, you must respect legal authorities here. and that's kind of what happened. the system held. it wobbled a bit. eventually, the legislative branch began to wake up. and the americans looked and said, you know, we really don't like political violence left or right. and they said, we're getting sick of these antics. i think you're seeing a lot of concern among americans these days that democracy is under attack. and they don't like to. >> yeah. eddie, we have seen, certainly, over the past month or so, independent voters especially, across the midwest. across the very region that donald trump needed to ride to richt tore to the electoral college in 2016, independent swing voters now turning against trump.
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turning against republicans in one poll after another. >> yeah, joe, i mean, we see it. and we notice there's a period of time between now and the midterms. we have to wait of course the political winds change rather quickly in this country. i really want to ask tom this question. i'm thinking about buffalo. i'm thinking about the senseless murder justified by or motivated by the great replacement language. i'm thinking about the underlying causes. this general sense that there's a cultural or demographic threat that drives much of what we've seen. of course, there's kind of political rallies that we just laid out. the electoral consideration. what about the cultural -- the cultural engine. these underlying contradictions that seem to be driving the intensity of the current -- of the current political landscape, tom. what do you make of that? i understand your optimism here, but that hasn't been resolved, it seems to me. >> well, i'd defer to your works
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which i've read and admired. i think that there is a 20% of america that basically is white nationalists. that in recent years felt permission to act out on that and were given permission by the president and the republican party. i think the large bulk of americans don't like white nationalism, especially violent white nationalism, and they are reacting to it now. and saying enough is enough. you people go back under your rock. >> so, tom, while i agree with your assessment about the lessening danger of a civil war among americans, there is a view, a feeling, that there is a virus out there. an infection caused by specifically largely one person, over the last five or six years. that person is no longer in office. and the people who are most
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susceptible to catching one of the permutations of this virus are americans who have suffered some sense of loss over the last ten or 15 years. whether the loss of a child in the war, a loss of a home in economic collapse. they have lived in it. and they're most susceptible to this virus, whether you call it white nationalism who are people who do not believe in government and overthrowing any sense of government. what are your thoughts on that? >> yes, i think the sense, especially older white men who can no longer define society on their terms is deeply antagonizing. yeah, i think when that leads to violence it is so off-putting to the majority of americans, it's a losing position. those people will be there.
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america has become a deeply society. and when it comes to violence, i think that's a deal breaker for most americans. >> so, tom, though, let's be very clear this in germany and 1931. 1932. people aren't going around, tom, with wheelbarrows of cash to buy some bread. we have unemployment at record lows. we've had record job growth over the past year and a half. we've got family restaurants that are only half open because they can't get people to come work for them. you've got service industry people, entrepreneurs, small business owners, all suffering economically because they could hire more people and people are just choosing not to work. so, i just got to say --
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>> i don't agree with that, people are choosing not to be paid these lousy wages. billionaires are holding on to too much cash in american society. they're not allowing the wealth to be spread. and i think we live in an oligarchy now that is not allowing wealth to spread across society. if they paid their fair share of taxes, we'd have a very different society. >> well, we agree on that point, but i disagree with you that a family hardware store in maine can pay $35 an hour to somebody working in their store. i disagree that a family restaurant that can't stay open even in high season, from may in florida, can't paid $35 for workers to keep their restaurant
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all the way open. so, i'm just saying, it's -- we have record low unemployment. and i agree with you that we are, in large part, an oligarchy, i talked about it yesterday that billionaires and multinational corporations are getting a free ride. at the same time, our economic -- our current economic status as a country, i don't think justifies the deep social unrest that we're seeing. i think that may come from things such as demographic changes in america. >> well, a good chunk of america is being left behind by this economy. that's a real problem. we are not doing a lot for the bottom half of this society in economic terms. we could do a lot more. but we'll really stand out like a sore thumb among industrialized countries in the way we have a for profit medical
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system. and the way we burden university students with debt. that is not the way the european societies run. my son lives in barcelona. when he walks out of his door and looks, he doesn't see a single person worried about retirement, worried about health care, or worried about a college education. because those are things that the state takes care of for people. >> obviously, not our system. but that's something that and eddie can debate against me. and somebody else on another day. and we look forward to it. >> we look forward to it. >> yes. you're coming back. >> we certainly look forward to having you back in a few weeks to talk about your new book "waging a good war." very excited about that. >> thank you, tom ricks for being on. joe, you ran a piece kevin
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wereson, the american right is hitting a hippy phase or hippy moment. comparing the 1950s ideology to what is going on with the republican party today, opinion columnist for the post writes in part this, the period after world war ii was a time of strong political consensus in america which a new left rose up to challenge. c. wright mills, a sociologist at columbia university was that movement's intellectual godfather. and consider a passage from his 1956 best seller "the power elite." quote, the power elite are in command of the major hierarchies and organizations of modern society. they ruled the big corporations. they run the machinery of the state and claim its prerogatives. they direct the military establishment. they occupy the strategic command posts of the social
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structure in which are now centered, the effective means of the power and the wealth and the celebrity which they enjoy. today that passage could easily appear in a populist-right publication. what matters is today's new right like the new left before it is self-consciously animated by a sense of exclusion from what mills called the higher circles, including in universities, professional organizations and the national security stage. >> and column gist jason willick joins us now. jason, i was born in '63, and i grew up at a time when my family and every other conservative family during the late '60s into the '70s would ask, why do these people hate america so much? why are they trying to undermine the very institutions that make america great, attacking law enforcement, attacking the fbi,
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attacking the universities? you know, occupying universities. attacking the pentagon as we see often on the trump right. and, my god, the very things that made people put bumper stickers on their car that said america love it or leave it are the very things now that the trump right is doing 50 years later. >> yeah. i think it's easy for both sides to see hypocrisy here. you mentioned the hypocrisy from that side. there's also some people who might say, wait a second, weren't the liberals the people who questioned the national security state? weren't the people who had doubts about the fbi and chairman of joint chiefs of staff and the corporations, what's with the liberals now backing capitalism? and backing whatever the fbi does without questioning it? now, i'm not saying which one is
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right. i think there's a through-line between sort of the left in the 1960s as you said and the right today. and that's very easy for left and right to see hypocrisy on the other side. >> well, you're making my point which is we would look at the left, trying to tear down american institutions. now, it's the right trying to tear down american institutions. and you've got millions of americans in the middle, millions of independents who were offended by what the left did in the late '60s and '70s. and what the trump right is doing now. >> sure. no, i think your point is well taken. i just think you're putting a spin on it that somebody who doesn't like the modern right would put on it. and somebody who is frustrated with liberals who used to support free speech. or who used to not want to support blackrock or another,
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google or big companies are doing are now sort of more likely to defend the prerogatives of those institutions compared to the left in the 1960s, the hip in hippy phase, as you said. i think you're right. >> eddie glaude, let me say for the record, my family and i were offended when the radical left is trying to tear down institutions, university, the fbi, the united states military. we were offended then. i'm offended now. so, not a lot has changed from my world view. unfortunately, my tribe has changed radically, and too many of them now, the same people attacking the hippy phase in the far right and 1960s are now attacking universities, attacking the fbi, calling them the gestapo. that's not just out of the far
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left playbook from 1969, i don't know what is. and even attacking the pentagon, the military, saying that helicopters that were used against afghanistan are coming to america to attack any trump supporters. >> well, joe, i appreciate your consistency in that regard. and i'm going to say from my family's point of view there was reason to be skeptical of the state, as it upheld policies that discriminated against black folk. there was reason to be suspicious of the fbi, as it participated in its own way giving j. edgar hoover intel to expand our capabilities to become full class citizens. we have to think about where the similarities are and the differences are. there's this space that hippies and conservatives inhabit that we might want to unpack. but what was really fascinating with jason's piece, it's way in
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which he links to c. wright mills. i wanted to ask you, aren't these different? the maga are concerned about the windfall for billionaires. they're not railing against citizens united states. they're railing against adelaide stevenson's children. those eggheads running the deep state. the radical left and those folks. c. wright mills was more concerned about court elites that captured the country and the society that follows that. am i wrong in that regard? or can you help me understand the analogy a little better? >> well, i think that people have different language for the kind of elites that they're railing against. left and right and populist have a different language. but i think people on the right certainly think the chief executives at big tech companies, for example, have too much power over expression. that people in the administrative state have too much unaccountable control over
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public health policy or whatever else it is. i think it's certainly true that the new left had a different vision from society than the new right. but i think the right today sees itself on the outs with the institutions. which are not democratic, those are hierarcical institutions. and c. wright mills, it's the power and it stays the same. and i've seen similarity between that and what populist critics say today. we have in place anthony fauci for 40 years. and the oversight of facebook send not controlled on what goes up or stays down on that platform. you're right, there are differences and i'm not making a particular moral comparison, but i think the critique of power and the way that each one sees democracy being threatened has very strong parallels.
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>> all right. "washington post" columnist jason willick, eddie glaude jr. thank you as well. and still ahead, "the washington post's" carol leonnig will be here. as her sources raised the alarm over the documents found at mar-a-lago. also ahead, a growing world of wars over mitch mcconnell and the head of the rnc as he tries to walk it back. it's a crazy thing about the head of the senate political arm, rick scott. i mean, he wants to tax working class. he wants to raise taxes on working class americans. and he wants to raise tax on middle class americans. he wants them to pay more while he still wants to give tax cuts
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to the richest hedge fund managers. he's talking about social security. he's talk about medicare. you got blake masters out in arizona, he's talking about privatizing medicare. they're coming after seniors' medicare, people like rick scott and blake masters had their way. plus, why do some voters feel lukewarm about president biden who could tip the midterm election towards democrats? and up next, trump's own former attorney general blasts the florida judge's decision to grand a special master. we'll have that for you when "morning joe" returns.
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former attorney general bill barr, one of trump's fiercest defenders while in office is questioning the judge's decision to appoint a special master.
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here's what he had to say yesterday on fox news. >> i think it was wrong. and i think the government should appeal it. it's deeply flawed in a number of ways. i don't think the appointment of the special master is going to hold up, but even if it does, i don't see it fundamentally changing the trajectory. in other words, i don't think it changes the ball game so much as we'll have a rain delay for a couple of innings. government documents were taken, classified information was taken and not handled appropriately. and they are looking into and there's some evidence to suggest that they were deceived. >> those comments come after what he said on friday, on fox news, that the fbi search of mar-a-lago was justified.
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>> no. i can't think of a legitimate reason why they should have been -- could be taken out of the government, away from the government. if they're classified. i, frankly, am skeptical of this claim that i declassified everything, you know. because, frankly, i think it's highly improbable. and second, if in fact he sort of stood over scores of boxes, not really knowing what was in them and said i hereby declassify everything in here, that would be such an abuse that shows such recklessness it's almost worse than taking the document. i think the driver on this from the beginning was it was, you know, loads of classified information sitting in mar-a-lago. people say this is unprecedented. but it's also unprecedented for a former president to take all of this classified information and put it in a country club, okay? how long is the government going to try to get that back. they jawboned for a year.
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they were deceived on the voluntary actions taken. they then went and got a subpoena. they were deceived on that, they feel. and the facts are starting to show that they were being jerked around. and so how long -- you know, how long do they wait. >> yeah. and the facts are starting to show, joe, that if you're in the department of justice, and you're investigating this situation, and there is a pressing situation, a pressing concern, a pressing question as to why this former president who has said, many times that he would do nefarious things with information. he has said that himself. this is not me projecting. he would take dirt on a political rival from the leader of a foreign country to bring them down. he has said that, openly, himself. so you have a former president who is loose, and i say that very carefully, loose with private classified information. who doesn't care about
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boundaries or parameters or potentially even laws. does the doj sit back and wait for an election to go by and a special master to sift through everything? or are they compelled to move forward? i think that's an interesting question and we'll look for answers when "the washington post" carol leonnig joins the conversation. she helped to break the news that documents with secrets were found by fbi agents at mar-a-lago. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪♪ allergies don't have to be scary. (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache pain? and the congestion that causes it! flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good!
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coming up, one of our next guests is just back from the war zone in ukraine. retired army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman joins us with the latest for that country's fight for freedom. that's just ahead on "morning joe."
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the choice between prop 26 and 27? let's get real. prop, 26 means no money to fix homelessness, no enforcement oversight and no support for disadvantaged tribes. yikes! prop 27 generates hundreds of millions towards priorities like new housing units in all 58 counties. 27 supports non-gaming tribes and includes strict audits that ensure funds go directly to people off the streets and into there's only one choice. yes on 27.
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♪♪ hey, it's a great honor to withvy us former democratic senator gary hart of colorado out with a new book titled "the american republic can save american democracy." senator, thank you so much for being with us. obviously, so many people concerned right now about how we continue this extraordinary american experiment. that we began so long ago. why don't you tell us what you consider to be the greatest challenge to that ongoing struggle. and where you can conclude the answer lies on the how we move forward successfully. >> well, you and your program have emphasized almost every day for quite a long time, the
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danger of undermining the integrity of the ballot and the ability of the american people to trust the outcome of elections. if those seeking to undermine our credibility of the electoral system in america succeed, then the democracy is in grave trouble. and i've paid a lot of attention as you have and your guests to the critique of the attacks on democracy. and where they're coming from. but there is -- there is not very much suggestion of solutions. and when i wrote this small book/long essay what i tried to offer was a built-in way to counter these, what i would consider to be, destructive but
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evil forces. and they are right here before us, because we salute the pride of the united states and the republic for which it stands. so, it occurred to me rather late in life, if we are a democracy, why are we saluting the flag of a republican, and what is a republic. and that led me back to studying early american history. and as you know, when you do that all the founders, i'd say all of them, knew the classics from rome and athens and the languages and the concepts. and they through there was a struggle within the founder as to whether we were a democracy or a republic. and it was jefferson who was held good by saying we are a democratic republic.
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>> so, you did what tom ricks also did, he said the night after the 2016 election, he started going back, looking at the classic. and he came up with some ideas on what he thought what wisdom we needed to look to in the past. i'm curious, for this democratic republic that was formed by our founders, what are some of the answers that you discovered going back and studying their political philosophies? studying the foundation this country. the formation of this country. >> well, the reason why so many of the founders insist that we perpetuate the themes of the republic and what we would call today a smaller republicanism.
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because those therapeutic for the problems we face. for example, the early founders of republics in ancient rome and beyond believed in popular sovereignty. that is to say, no magistrate,o king, no powerful individual, man or woman, was going to hold the power of the republic. it belonged to the people. and, therefore, the three most dramatic words of our constitution are the first three, we, the people. i didn't say i, thomas jefferson and john adams and so forth. they said, we, the people. second, they believed in a commonwealth. that is to say that we own -- we the owners of the republic own things in common. we could go on and on.
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our defense systems, our transportation systems, our public education, public health, and all those things that some people persist in wanting to privatize, even though that's destructive of the commonwealth, but that's very, very important to what unites us. they believed in virtue. we don't use that language anymore. but what you and i would mean by that is, participation. you owe it to your country and your children who participate in all of levels of government. not necessarily elected, but just show up at town meetings. county commissions, all kinds of public gatherings, political events, ask questions of those seeking your vote and insisting
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that those who seek your vote and your support conform with what you believe in the best interest of our nation. so we could spend a lot more time than we do in our education system preaching and teaching civic virtue. but it simply means paying attention, participating, asking questions, attending meetings, turning the tv off one night a month and going to some public event that is of importance to your community. you and i both know that that list goes on. there was a final quality of republics beginning in ancient rome and that was resistance to corruption. and they define corruption as putting special interests ahead of the common good.
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so the common good being the commonwealth. well, if you apply that definition to our current government, then we've got problems because a lot of the distrust of washington is the revolving doors and the lobbying system where lots of money are involved, that's what the ancients and our founders called corruption. so that in very compressed ways is the definition of a republic and it was on that foundation that democratic principles, the integrity of the ballot, free speech, the first amendment of all the -- the bill of rights, those are the democracy. what i've outlined is what is the foundation of a republic. >> so you -- you talk about a
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period that you grew up in, period that i actually sort of came and -- sort of the tail end of, the postwar era when conversations about common good, conversations about civic duty were actually -- they were defining features not only of our political system but of our educational system. i always talk on the show, though, i was a republican, though i was a small government conservative, i always talk about the almost fetishness of this individual rights, the extremes that that -- that that has been taken to and how that is undermined common good of the united states, how that has determined virtues in the united states and how that's undermined our democratic republic. talk about that as you do in the book.
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>> well, this may have happened to you in your education system. i attended public schools in the small towns of ottawa, and my favorite course is one called civics. i don't think it's taught anywhere anymore. but it is the constitution, our political systems, how government works, what's wrong when it doesn't work, all the basics of citizenship. and it's that part that has been left out and left behind. we have focused so much and my own party, the democratic party, is responsible for part of this. focused on our rights and when was the last time any politician reminded you or anyone else of our duties. so if i were to encapsulate
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democracy and the republic, i would simply say if we wish to protect our rights, we must perform our duties. and it is in the framework of the republic where citizen duties are to be found. that's how the two mesh. we protected democracy by promoting the basic values of the republic. >> the new book is "the american republic can save american democracy." a vital message from an incredibly important voice in the american debate over the past half century. former senator gary hart, it's an honor tough you with us. >> it's great to talk to you again, joe. >> all right. hope to talk soon. and we'll be right back with more "morning joe." more "morning joe.
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♪♪ beautiful shot of the golden gate bridge in san francisco this morning. welcome back to the fourth hour of "morning joe." 9:00 a.m. in the east coast, 6:00 a.m. out west. we've got a lot to get to this morning including new reporting