tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC September 12, 2022 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
theorists inside their base happy because they don't want to risk alienating them and losing their support, that's what allowed the democratic president in 1964 to make that election a referendum on republican extremism, which led to a landslide victory for democrats and the sort of easy elevator life history about the way we remember these things, isn't always subtle enough to get us to the truth of the hard decisions that were and weren't make back in the day, which can be a lesson to where we are today. all this to, say i'm really excited to read's new book which is coming out tomorrow. again, it is called american psycho, seagull beyond chris hayes show -- we're gonna have him on a couple of weeks to talk about it. again, history is here to help.
a very excited to see that. that's gonna do it for us. alex wagner will be here tomorrow, now is the time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell, good evening lawrence. >> is it okay if i have david corn on two, to talk about american psychosis? the title of his new, i think as of now, his by sign because of the five minutes you spent on it. >> listen, i love david cohen. personal disclosure, he's a friend, i think is a great journalist, i love the way he thinks and rights. i am so glad that he's done a super readable modern history the right, we keep talking about these things that they haven't happened before and -- not exactly right, and we just need smart digestible history about this, particularly as we head into the midterms. this is just perfectly timed. >> we've all been thinking about it. i remember thinking about it when donald trump got the nomination in 2016, i kind of work my way back to sarah palin,
and then it kept going and kept going. but i never did the full homework that david coren has done to take us all the way back, to where it really begins, and traces consistency all the way through. and it's survival points that we just described. maybe that could've been the moment, where they snuff this out. but no, it survived and stuck through this way, and then it's not by another moments in history netherlands, to come out to this full bloom in 2015 or 2016. >> and the conservative movement and the conservative media has been very self congratulatory, so they eventually did self believes coops like the john birch society out of the ranks. and they did eventually. all the years that they delayed, and they didn't do, it and they kept them inside the tent because they wanted to keep them dornoch in for them, and keeping their donations coming in. they didn't want to alienate them. all those years have a cost.
those years before they did the right thing, that's actually the relevant history for where we are right now. and so, anyway, i'm obsessed with the stuff, as you know. >> rachel, jeffrey berman is gonna join me tomorrow night to follow up the discussion you had with him tonight. and that breaking news you revealed tonight about an individual one complaint in the michael cohen case, turns out it was twice as long in the original drafts, and the bill barr people at the justice department got it cut in half. it's still was hugely condemning of individual one. and the thing i've been wondering about, not since that time but since the new administration came in is, why hasn't donald trump been prosecuted as individual one in that case we understand the while he was president, william barr was gonna say that you can't prosecutor sitting
president, but as soon as he wasn't president, i fully expected that he was going to be indicted on the elements of the individual one case, that are identical to the michael cohen case. and you know, there's so much about that prosecutorial discretion and things like that that is by necessity secret. so of course, if you are being improperly pressure to do something a looks like prosecutorial discretion, you shouldn't be quiet about it, you should tell people about it. that sort of the curtain that jeffrey berman has pulled back now. i think the question, ultimately, may now at this point epa statute of limitations issue. if that behavior was in the 2016 campaign, well as 2022 now. the statute of limitations for most crimes a five-year thing, and maybe all. but whether or not charges can still be brought, or could still be brought against trump for that, there are also ought to be repercussions for the
people inside the justice department brought that in proper pressure. arguably, that is a criminal act of self to obstruct justice. certainly, it is worth investigating as a potentially -- a matter of professional's conduct as lawyers. certainly the matter of investigation at the justice department. both really need reform, but also there ought to be punishment and a cause for people who didn't. perverting u.s. law enforcement for political means is arguably illegal, definitely wrong in, can't go unpunished. we >> rachel, i thought that when we saw nixon's attorney general i mean people of a certain age saw mixes attorney general go to prison. that that eliminated, it just eliminated this behavior from that point forward, at the justice department will it just wouldn't happen again that would be enough by way of
warning to people. but i guess those warnings only lasted a couple of decades. >> yes, and if you think you're not gonna be in trouble for it that gives you more runway. if you think you're not gonna get in trouble for it and you get pressured every day to do it, that gives you even more runway. and if you see other people around you getting away with even worse stuff, they cause even more runway to do it, and what he describes about bill barr's behavior here and edward oh callahan and richard donahue -- he talks about what exactly they did, it's really bad in terms of how the justice justice department can be corrupted officials in those kind of keep positions are willing to do it. justice department has to fix this, because the american public has to believe that it's an incorruptible institution. in order to believe, that we have to know there's consequences when corruption has demonstrated, confessed to, and proven. so this is not a normal book,
this is not a normal tell-all book. this is the start of something at the justice department that is gonna have to be taken very seriously. >> yes, there's never been a book like this, and jeffrey berman will be here at this hour tomorrow night for the discussion. thank you, rachel. we >> well, we now know the name of the person who is likely to be names as the so-called special master in a criminal investigation of donald trump. but, we don't yet know what that special master will actually be doing. that is one piece of our breaking news coverage in this hour, which includes new filings in the case this evening, by federal prosecutors, and on trump's lawyers. the other sprawling mass of breaking news that we have tonight, is reporting in the new york times by at team of reporters including our first guest, under the headline justice department issues 40 subpoenas in a week expanding its january six inquiry.
the times reports the justice department officials have seized the phones of two top advisers to former president donald trump, and blanketed his aides without about 40 subpoenas, and a substantial escalation of the investigation into his efforts to subvert the 2020 election. people familiar with the increase on monday. the seizure of the phones, coupled with a widening effort to obtain information from those around mr. trump after the 2020 election, represent some of the most aggressive steps the department is taken thus far in his criminal investigation into the actions that led to the january 6th 2021 assault on the capitol by a pro trump mob. federal agents with court authorized search warrants, took phones last week, from at least two people. -- who helps coordinate mr. trump's legal efforts, and mike roman, a campaign strategist who is the director of election
day operations for the trump campaign in 2020. people with the investigation said. >> the times reports that bernard kerik the former new york city police commissioner reported by giuliani while he was mayor, has also received a subpoena. kerik helped rudy giuliani promote false voter fraud claims. his lawyer confines of the new york times that he was subpoenaed by the u.s. attorney's office in washington, d.c.. bernard kerik is the only person in the subpoena group of trump associates who knows what life is like inside federal prison. he is the former new york city police commissioner, who is convicted of federal felonies, and served time in federal prison and of course donald trump is the only president of the united states, who would seek out and accept help from bernard kerik, after he got out
of prison. the times reports, according to one subpoena obtained by the new york times, they asked for any records or communications from people who organized, spoke, at or provided security for mr. trump's rally, at the ellipse. also this evening, the justice department filed its response to donald trump's list of suggested, so-called, special masters, and the criminal investigation of donald trump for illegal possession of government records, including classified ones. donald trump's lawyers filed their response to the justice department's two names, proposed a special master. not surprisingly, the trump lawyers said they opposed to both of them names submitted by the justice department. then the justice department replied, saying that one of the two suggested names by the trump lawyers is acceptable to the justice department. that is, 78-year-old senior federal judge raymond diary, who is appointed to the federal
court in 1986 by republican president ronald reagan, at the suggestion of new york's then junior senator -- alfonso tomato. judge gere served a seven year term, on the united states foreign intelligence surveillance court where he became familiar with the handling of classified material. earlier today in the case of donald j trump versus the united states of america, donald trump's lawyers filed their reply to the justice department's filing on thursday. the justice department demanded them that the trump appointed judge in the case, i lean mercedes cannon reverse herself, and exclude the 100 classified documents seized from donald trump's residence, from any examination by the so-called special master. and, the justice department demanded that the judge reversed herself on her order barring federal prosecutors and the fbi from continuing their
investigation of the classified documents. the justice department pointed out that it is impossible for the intelligence community to assess the damages to national security in this case without the fbi's continued investigation of what has been happening with those documents well in donald trump's legal custody. today donald trump's lawyer said, in effect, then fbi affidavit submitted by the justice department last week, by alan koehler junior, the assistant director of the counter-intelligence division of the fbi, is a lie. coolers affidavit said that the intelligence communities classification reveal a national security risk assessment are inextricably linked with the criminal investigation. donald trump's lawyer said, that is simply not true. the fbi is lying about that, and the trump lawyers, of course, offered no evidence to support their assertion, that
the head of counter-intelligence at the fbi, lied to the judge in this case, under oath. we will, in a moment, get andrew weissmann's expert reading of this pleading, along with attorney mark zaid attorney ordination. for the moment, i will point out only one's stunningly childish passage. on page 50, in the trump lawyers quote the law accurately, saying that the archivist of the united states shall assume responsibility for the custody, control, and preservation of, and access to, the presidential records that president. and then, they think they have a winning point in the next line. when they say the law, quote, does not say that the archivist must assume custody and control of all materials the fall within the definition of the presidential records. so there are the trump lawyers, thinking that they have caught the wall rioters. thinking that they found the loophole.
velazquez shiloh, doesn't say must. i'm sorry, but i must now invoke what they call, in the senate, a point of personal privilege, and that is, as someone who used to write law, i can tell you, that shell means must. those two words mean exactly the same thing in written law. laws are not written just by the staff members, like i was, who works for senators or chairman of committees, where the law is really get written. the committee staff rates the first draft of the law. and then we presented to the legislative council's office and that is the place where technical professionals do nothing but write the final words that appear as the law in the united states of america and they make sure that the legislative intent is clear. they could have written the
archivist of the united states may assume responsibility for presidential records, and that would leave the door open to more than one possibility. and laws sometimes do that. that would possibly leave the door open to the dream world that donald trump's lawyers are playing in, and a trump appointed judge in florida is pretending to believe. but the legislative council did not leave that door open in this law. the law says that the archivist of the united states shall assume responsibility. and that does indeed closed the door tightly, and legally, on who has the responsibility. when i read this today, i could not believe that there was a legal practitioners out there anywhere any united states of america, who could read the word shall in law, and does not know with that it means must. everyone writing laws intends
for the word shall to mean must. there is much more to say about this legal filing by donald trump's lawyers today, we will get to that in a moment. but we begin our discussion tonight with the new york times breaking news about the 40 subpoenas hitting trump associates. joining us now is katie benner, she's a justice department reporter for new york times, and an msnbc contributor. katie, what else can you tell us about what you're finding in this reporting? >> sure, well first of all, thank you for having me. second of all, i want to clarify, i'm not one of the byline on the story, i just don't want that to be an accurate, but thank you for including me. i can tell you tonight, that whether justice department is done is sent out a blanket of subpoenas for requests for information for a number of trump's associates. related to a couple of different investigative threads that we know the justice department has been pursuing. including, a look at the effort to have the slates of electors was legal, and funding around
the postelection efforts to discredit the result of the election. i think one of the most interesting things about this is that it really speaks to the strategy of the justice department this point, which is to try to obtain as many documents as possible, and it's not a huge surprise given that lisa monaco, the deputy attorney general, if she's briefed on these matters, that she is one of the people overseen this investigation. and her case that made her famous is the neuron investigation, which actually took a very similar attack, gathering as much evidence as possible, as much paper as possible, to prove the government's case. >> you really get again andrew weissmann going on that, because he did also join in on the anyone investigation. this investigation seems to not just events leading up to january 6th but the whole fundraising campaign that went on after donald trump knew he lost the election, after
november 7th, there is a massive fundraising campaign about changing the results of the election somehow, they continued even after january 6th. >> absolutely, and i think it's not unusual for investigators to follow the money, it's fruitful analysis of areas, whether or not you're looking at financial fraud or some other crime. in this case, it is an open question. what kind of solicitation was made for the funds? how are the funds used? was any of the spending this represented? in what circumstances was money spent or distributed, they may or may not lead prosecutors to ever prosecutorial avenues? >> katie benner, thanks so much for leading off our discussion tonight. and joining us now, andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, and former chief of the criminal division in the eastern district of of new york, and professor and why you. he's an msnbc legal analyst. also mark zaid, who specializes in national security and security clearances. andrew weissmann, let me begin
with you, and offer you reach back into what katy runner was just talking about, and how the enron investigation, could be, in some sense, a model for what we're seeing now with a blanket of 40 something is going out in the maybe last two weeks. >> so, i don't think you need to go back that far too and ron, over 20 years ago. because, as lisa monaco and i used to say about an iran, that was like doing calculus to most cases, which are algebra. that was an incredibly complex case. what we are talking about here, whether it's the mar-a-lago case, or this sort of pack fraud, or the january 6th insurrection. is well there's a lot of witnesses and documents, these are not complicated. you don't have to be steeped, as a lisa monaco is, in an iran case, to be able to do this case. so i think this is sort of the bread and butter for the
department of justice to be doing this, i think it's exactly the right step, is they expect to see you -- with free documents. we have search warrants for phones, which is always a great source, getting information, because obviously out people communicate through emails encrypted apps, and also as waves at phones allow you to get information, but the bad guys tend to think are protected, but in fact aren't, something probably mark knows a lot about. so i think this is one where, again, you don't have to go to back to enter on, but it does help that lisa and also her staff are extremely experienced federal prosecutors. >> let me get your reaction to the likelihood, at this point, that judge theory will be named the special master in the trump case. >> two quick thoughts, i know
judge jerry very well from practice in the eastern district of new york. he's beloved by defense fires, and by prosecutors, he was the u.s. attorney before he was a federal judge. let me give you two quick story about him. i think if he saw any kind of remorse or rehabilitation at sentencing, he went out of his way to speak directly to defendant to make sure -- he wanted to have that personal connection. when i was a junior prosecutor, in the first year there, he was late for a quarter appearance, and the defence lawyer and i both got handwritten apology knows from the judge, explaining why he was late. he is humble, smart, fair, i think this is such a good choice. and i also think one of the things that may very well happen is that, because he is actually a sitting federal judge, essentially the government is going to be able
to essentially replaced judge cannon with judge dearie. because he is now the special master, and he will be making the first cut on law and facts, i think it's going to be very hard for judge cannon to overrule somebody with that much experience, as judge dearie has. so i think this is a real win for the department of justice. >> mark zaid, let me get your reaction to today's developments, the trump lawyers filing, and then what looks like the choice of judged area since the trump lawyers rejected both of the justice department's suggested special masters, and the justice department accepted this one from the trump lawyers. >> well, first of all, the trump lawyers turning this into what we've been hearing in right-wing talking points, that this is just a storage issue gone bad. i find, frankly, very insulting. and i think a number of people who are sitting in jail right now, for having the
unauthorized possession of classified information, probably are little bit upset by that legal argument, where they want to their lawyers from malpractice, for not having raised it as part of their defence. a lot of the brief they filed today also talked about things that quite frankly are just completely irrelevant. and not really subject any dispute that the government we care about. the former president has an unfettered right to access presidential records. yeah, that's fine, if president trump, former president trump or's desk knee wanted to go to the national archives and access his presidential records, not a problem. that has nothing to do with what is going on now, and they continue, or started to make this argument about that the president has the power to the classified documents. again, not in dispute. not an unfettered right, because there are limitations on a presidential power to declassify, particularly under
the atomic energy act. but the question, or issue about their brief is that although they say they have the power, when president, they don't say he exercise that power. so, why even raising this in your brief, for about a page and a half? you know judge dearie, and you may know better weather judge cannon is limited to just days for a choices. she did receive lots of other choices by people. in fact, people wrote in recommending themselves to be the special master. but of the four, certainly having a sitting federal judge or a retired federal judge, especially one who had the type of experience of being on the foreign intelligence surveillance court, is optimal. and i echo andrews point in particular about, it will make judge cannons decisions afterwards very difficult, for
this inexperienced federal judge of only two or so years, to counter what someone of judge dearie's qualifications might say. so i'm not sure of the trump team is ultimately going to be happy with that choice, if that's her she goes. >> andrew, quickly before we go. despite judge candidates intent or expectation that the special master. could judge dearie himself, refused to look at anything work classified? i think -- if that's within his -- meaning the judge says i deny what the government has requested, and the government doesn't appeal, that which are two big gifts. and she says that's what i want to special master to do, then i don't think judge dearie would say i'm not doing, that he would follow the agreement that
he was given. i personally don't think that the trump team is going to like his answer, because judge dearie is smart, and he will make a decision quickly. these are not complicated issues, and he will also follow the law. a little here is so clear, i think he has to be -- i think you probably views this as part of the service, but i think this will be one where you'll want to make sure the people want to make sure that is fair objectively, but i don't think these are actual or legal issues. >> it's gonna be another dramatic week in this case, with the justice department promising appeal as early as thursday. andrew weizmann, mark zaid, thanks so much for joining us tonight, we really appreciate it. and coming up, the country is watching a trump appointed judge in florida try to give donald trump everything he wants to help him in a federal criminal investigation of donald trump, and the supreme
court supports forcing ten-year-old rape victims to give birth. and then, chief justice john roberts, says he is deeply troubled that the legitimacy of the supreme court is being questioned, even by members of the supreme court itself. that is next. that is next new astepro allergy. no allergy spray is faster. with the speed of astepro, almost nothing can slow you down. because astepro starts working in 30 minutes, while other allergy sprays take hours. and astepro is the first and only 24-hour steroid free allergy spray. now without a prescription. astepro and go. becoming a morning person starts the night before with new neuriva relax and sleep. it has l-theanine to help me relax from daily stress. plus, shoden ashwagandha for quality sleep. so i can wake up refreshed.
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that people disagree with, it illegitimacy of the court. >> don't understand the connection. the chief justice of the united states said that of the time when the country is watching a trump appointed judge at the lowest level, the federal courts has them in trying to give donald trump everything he wants by interfering with a federal criminal investigation of donald trump. john roberts said that at a time when ten-year-old girls in america, who are rape victims are being ordered by the laws of their states to give birth because they were raped. those laws were authorized by the united states supreme court. ized b the united states suprem court. that was the first in history to take rights away from women and girls, and insist that suddenly ten year old girls in this country, by law, must give birth after being raped. john roberts wonders why people do not simply stop at politely disagreeing with that opinion,
and take that next step to question the very legitimacy of the court. the court quoted the 400-year-old opinions of british judges, who believed in putting witches to death, and did indeed themselves sentence which is to death. they quoted those british judges in opposition to a portion to justify their own decision in 2022. in order to force young girls in this country to give birth after being raped the courts legitimacy is being questioned by members of the supreme court itself. justice is stephen breyer, kagan, wrote in their dissent that john roberts supreme court majority overturning roe v. wade, quote, undermines the courts legitimacy. joining us now is the senior
editor and foreign correspondent -- and host of the podcast, amicus she is the -- the battle to save america, former democratic senator of missouri, they are both msnbc analysts. senator mccaskill, john roberts just does not get it, he doesn't get the difference between opinions of the court and questioning the legitimacy. >> this is a guy who is very out of touch i will count the ways that legitimacy cannot be questioned. first, people were put on the court with a political to buy for wielded by mitch mcconnell. first, by denying a sitting president to refuse a supreme court justice, the first time in history. second, and stalling a judge right before a presidential election, never before in history. and third, he's got a guy
sitting on the supreme court whose wife is helping plot to overthrow the government, and then they overturned a right that women had in this country for 50 years. it is unbelievable how bad it is. >> and what are your simple solutions that you proposed in your brilliant new piece, to expand the courts? just the supreme court, which is legislatively possible, but difficult. but the lower courts, including the district courts, for example the district courts in florida where donald trump right now has very own judges doing everything she possibly can for him. one of the ironies of the special prosecutor, the special master in this case, is that in 1986, ronald reagan was able to appoint him to a federal judgeship that did not exist the year before, because it was created in an expansion, exactly the kind of expansion
you are talking about in the district courts. >> that's exactly right, lawrence, and the courts have been expanded historically overtime. not just the district courts, but the supreme court. the number has not been static either. and in fact, the judicial conference, which is the nonpartisan party that developed policy for the courts is begging for expansion of the lower federal courts, because of the backlog. unless you are donald trump, you can wait for years to be heard in court. and so there are a whole bunch of measures, whether it is jurisdiction stripping, whether it is adding seats to the bench, whether it is protecting the voting rights for judicial intervention. a lot of things that can be done, and i think that the days of wringing our hands and saying that we have to live under the some of trump judges for eternity because nothing can be done, those days need to end now. there are a poll bunch of things that need to be done, and we have to stop talking
about them as abstractions. >> if the democrats add two senators to their count, get up to 52 senators in the senate, will they be able to expand the courts? >> i don't think so. i do not believe that there will be enough votes to do that, but i do think that there is an opportunity to talk about all of the ethics reform term limits, and maybe age limits since the lifelong appointment has really gone out of fashion, especially for this supreme court. >> thank you both very much for joining our discussion tonight. >> you bet. >> thank you. coming up, donald trump cannot yet find a negative word to say about putin, but now some russian government officials are saying that putin should be removed from office, and russian state tv pendants are questioning putin's war with ukraine. that is next.
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is rarely the thing that decides a war. normally, the preparations before hand determine what happens when the fighting begins. these preparations are what several of the outcomes of the war itself. that is how our next guest, professor philips o'brien begins his latest piece for the atlantic, titled ukraine pulled
off a master stroke. explaining how strategic planning has put ukraine on the offensive in their war against the russian invasion. joining us now is philips o'brien. he is a professor of strategic studies at the head of the school at the university of saint andrew's. he is the author of how the war was won, air, sea, power, and allied victory in world war ii. professor o'brien, the word victory is in the title of your book, and people are using the word victory for ukraine now against russia as a real possibility. >> it has always been a real possibility. this campaign did not come out of nowhere, it has come out of the fact that ukraine has a better army, it is receiving better weapons, it's got better commanders, better political leadership, and a more united country in the war. the real mistake was thinking that russia was this superpower that was going to dominate.
ukraine always had some great advantages. had ukraine been helped earlier in the war, with the kind of support they are getting now, ukraine could've been in this position earlier. we are where we are now, and we are seeing the strength of ukrainian armed forces, and the strength of the ukrainian nation. >> talk about the kinds of plans that you have seen executed as they have unfolded live, as you do in your article. >> what we saw here is the ukrainian poll of the russians around into the places that they wanted to be, and took them out of where they did not want the russians to be. in terms of where the russians put their troops, the ukrainians drew them into the south around kherson, by talking up a ukrainian attack. that's where they wanted them to be, because the ukrainians could destroy them with ranged weapons much more easily in kherson. they pulled them out of this area around kharkiv, where the russians did not think anything would happen, because the ukrainians are very quiet.
and then the ukrainians hit them where they were not, and blew apart the russian lines. what we have seen is the ukrainians, the russians with a very thin defensive line here, and the ukrainians just blew it open, and the russians ran away. >> phillips o'brien, thank you very much for joining, us we really appreciate it. >> coming up, former ambassador to russia will join us next with a look at how russian state tv is losing confidence in vladimir putin. my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. plus, they felt fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb.
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hometown, called for the russian leader to be charged with treason and removed from office in a rare but brazen protest against the war in ukraine a day after the resolution against putin was made public on a local police station. they told the lawmakers that they were facing legal charges due to actions aimed at discrediting the current russian government. joining our discussion now is the u.s. ambassador to russia from 2012 to 2014. he is an msnbc national affairs analyst. as you know, the municipal council in moscow, some members there followed up with the same thing that we saw from that to petersburg officials. as you know, vladimir putin got his political start working in the mayor's office as a bureaucrat, and going on from there. is this at the beginning of more of this? >> it is definitely something new, lawrence. we are hearing now in public where a lot of russian elites
have been saying privately that they know this war has not been going well, and they are worried about the long term durability of it. it's now, with these incredible victories by the ukrainian warriors on the battlefield, they are now starting to say things in public. that clip that you just played, and yes, thank you to julia davis for watching so much russian tv said that the rest of us do not have to, although i did watch that clip. i know boris, the guy you just showed, and it is remarkable that he would be allowed to say that on russian television. remember, that station is controlled by the kremlin. it shows that there is a lot of finger pointing going on now. not by him towards putin just yet, but towards the generals, intelligence officers, and that suggests there is disarray and confusion about where this war goes next. >> is there a american vietnam scenario here, where in 1968, president lyndon johnson was basically driven from office by
the failures of the american approach to the vietnam war. and that eventually, through the following nixon administration, making some of the same mistakes. but constantly trying to get out. they eventually got out. that's how the north vietnamese at one, they wore down the american resolve inside of the government. is a scenario like that possible here, where the ukrainian forces continue to succeed south really militarily, that they wear down the support structure in russia, which includes the support structure for putin himself. >> yes. but with one big difference. rashid today is a dictatorship, not a democracy. and so it will take a lot longer for that to happen. the analogy that i use is not vietnam, but actually the invasion of afghanistan. that's when he overreached,
that's when he went too far, and they were bogged down there for a long time. but the unraveling of the regime took a lot longer. it did not happen overnight. they were there for a decade, and eventually gorbachev, within the beginning of the end of the soviet union, it was a long process. >> as you look at it tonight, with people using the word victory now, in the atlantic. this piece concludes, we must expect that a ukrainian victory, and certainly a victory in ukraine's understanding of the term also brings about the end of putin's regime. are these premature hopes and dreams? >> like them in afghanistan, that was the beginning of the end of the soviet union. it did not happen when he was in power. political scientists like myself, were not good at predicting the future. by the way, neither our intelligence agencies.
i do think that this is the beginning of the end of putin -ism, as a regime. i don't want to go out on a limb and predict when that will actually happen. >> i have found myself reluctant to use the word victory in anything that i am saying about this, but i am very struck by what a big swell of that where it is occurring over the last couple of days, among thoughtful observers. >> and among my ukrainian friends, lawrence. i talked to ukrainian government officials every day. they are cautious, they don't want to get ahead of their skis, they are worried about counteroffensives, and remember, they have not liberated donbas or crimea, which president zelenskyy has set as goals. but they are more optimistic today than they have been since they won the battle of kyiv several months ago >> ambassador michael, thank you for guiding us through this war, we really appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> we'll be right back. we'll be right back i was wearing the pads i wore when i was twelve.
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the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts right now. >> tonight, dramatic new developments in the january 6th investigation. the doj issues 40 brand-new subpoenas, requesting records and phones from trump's inner circle. then, ukraine's surprise offensive, seizing back key areas in the kharkiv region, forcing a russian retreat. president zelenskyy warns that he will need much more u.s. aid to keep going. plus, months of debate over a congressional stock trading ban, and