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tv   The 11th Hour With Stephanie Ruhle  MSNBC  September 15, 2022 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT

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campbell gets tonight's last word. tomorrow night, at this hour, you can see richard engel's reporting on the ground in ukraine about the war crimes committed in that country by the russian military on assignment ukraine, the search for justice. it airs tomorrow night at 10 pm, eastern, only on msnbc. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts right now. arts right now >> tonight, the federal judge in florida denies the department of justice for lax s to the classified documents found that the former presidents beach club. the trump appointed judge again sides with the president who appointed her. then president biden gets train workers to get to deal, averting a strike that would have disrupted the entire country's supply chain. the rail workers big request? we're six days. plus governors desantis in abbott stage a cruel political stunt. should the more desperate migrants up north --
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if cruelty is the point, what is the cost? as the 11th hour gets underway this thursday night. good evening once again, i'm stephanie ruhle. and we've got breaking news tonight in the case of donald trump versus the usa, also known as the justice departments investigation of classified documents seized from the former guys florida club. tonight, judge aileen cannon at the doj's deadline and appointed a special master to go through the material that the fbi found during the search. judge raymond j. dearie submitted, by trump's legal team and agreed to by doj lawyers, we'll be getting the job. he now has until november 30th to complete his review. but judge aileen cannon denied a key doj request to continue reviewing classified material as part of its criminal investigation. the doj has said it would appeal the judges ruling to the 11th circuit, so stay tuned. meanwhile, nbc news has confirmed that trump's former
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chief of staff mark meadows, on your screen, right there, has complied with the subpoena from the justice department's investigation into the sixth. that now makes him the highest ranking ex trump official to do so. tonight, the washington post has new reporting on the dozens of other january six subpoenas that were issued over the last week. the post says, each of you three of the subpoenas which cover, quote, 18 separate categories of information, including any communications the recipients had with scores of people in six different states, where supporters of then president trump sought to promote what are known as alternate electors. today, trump in an interview, was asked about the possibility he could get charged. here is some of what he had to say. >> do you feel like the department of justice is trying to indict you, mister president? >> there is no reason that they can. i did absolutely -- you have seen the legal preface -- i did absolutely nothing wrong. i think, if it happened, i think he would have problems in
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this country the likes of which, perhaps, we have never seen before. i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it. >> what kind of problems, mister president? >> i think they would have big problems. big problems. also, the january 6th congressional committee now saying justice officials will have to wait to get a look at their findings. the panel chairman says it will not handle any information until after the final report is complete. we have a lot to cover. i told you so. so, let's get smarter with the help of our lead off panel tonight -- jonathan allen senior national politics reporter for nbc news, professor melissa murray of nyu law school. she was a law clerk for sonia sotomayor on the federal bench before her nomination to the supreme court. and barb mcquade is here, a veteran federal prosecutor and former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. she worked with the doj during the biden transition and he's a professor at the university of michigan school of law. barb mcquade, what is your take away from the judge's ruling?
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>> i suppose it is not a surprise that she did not reverse yourself. but the doj had really offered her a lifeline that could be faced in carving out these 400 or so classified documents. instead, she completely rejected that argument. and even said something that i found really disturbing, which was, the mere fact that these documents have classified markings does not mean they are classified. she also rejected an un-refuted affidavit that was submitted to the fbi's director of counterintelligence. there is no contrary evidence to suggest that what he is saying is false when he says that the criminal investigation is inextricably intertwined with the national security assessment. and so she demonstrates, i think, great skepticism towards the government -- if not downright hostility. nonetheless, i think there is a little bit of a silver lining here. one is that she wrote this order within the doj's deadline to keep the urgency moving
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along. and she also clarified that, to the extent the fbi is necessary and the damage assessment is intertwined the criminal prosecution, then they can go ahead and conduct that intelligence risk assessment without tainting prosecutors and tainting fbi agents down the road, which i think is useful. because the last thing you want to do is do something right now to protect national security, get a conviction and find out it has to be overturned because the agents who saw these things were somehow tainted by looking at them. so that's one little nugget that i hope is helpful. >> melissa -- barbe just said something, melissa, that i want to stand -- may not be classified. glenn kershner wrote a tweet about this saying this is what it looks like when our federal justices them starts to be degraded. on what basis which he say something like that? >> again, it's hard to say here, i agree completely with barbara that the doj offered judge
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cannon, a lifeline, which he has pretty promptly rejected in favor of staying the course with an opinion that, i think, was widely decried as being untethered from any understanding of the law and some of the principles at issue with regard to executive privilege -- it could be the case that she believes this ship 11th -- the trump administration has put forth, that the documents -- belong to the -- administration of the executive more generally. but it's really hard to say what you could mean. it seems like she is doubling down on this. there are a couple of civil silver linings, as barb suggested, she's actually asked the new special master raymond j. dearie -- to try to review the classified documents for so he can determine the relevance. and then moved him along to the doj and allow the investigation to keep moving, the fbi clearance to keep moving. so, that is one bright spot, i
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think, in what is otherwise a doubling down on a pretty terrible ruling altogether. >> okay. but here is the thing, jonathan allen. willis is not alone saying this is a pretty terrible ruling. people are saying it's i'm just. they're saying a type of political. they're saying it's corrupt. once all these bad headlines for judge aileen cannon pass, at the end of the day, she is the judge. and isn't this a huge win for trump? >> absolutely, stephanie. and of course, on the non lawyer on your panel, so i will talk a bit about the politics of this. of course, it's a huge victory for trump. there is going to be a special master that is gonna be one of the guys that he asked for. the justice department basically said, which of the trump nominees, effectively, they didn't want, and so raymond j. dearie is the one that the justice department was okay with. but we are now going down this road of this special master reviewing all of these claims, attorney-client privilege, executive privilege classification, and of course, before this case, it was
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understood by everyone in washington and around the country that deals with the stuff, that if you are the president of the united states, you don't get to take things with you from the white house. so, trump moves on, fight another day, there were some small concessions from the justice department here. but a huge victory for him. and of course, this judge looking at president trump, perhaps running for president again in 2024, maybe thinking about her future and whether she may be elevated on the court. >> melissa, here is when i did not get. in her decision, the judge makes the argument that we need a neutral third party to decide in talking about the special master. she is the judge. isn't the judge supposed to be the neutral third party? it's like the umpire calling in an umpire for the game. >> fair point, stephanie. it's an unusual point to make. but again, though, that there has been a special master to review these and other cases -- like the rudy giuliani case in
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2021 and michael cohen before that, suggested is precedent here for a special master. and honestly, though this is a victory for the former president and that his particular special master was selected, judge dearie is, actually, i think, a more neutral choice than one might expect from the trump administration. i, frankly, was surprised to see his name on the list. i was seeing expected to see something like judge jeanine pirro on the list of those special masters. so, to see raymond j. dearie was kind of encouraging. he's a very respected judge, someone who can definitely do this work. again, to the extent that they are classified documents here, like what we have to get certain clearances, that is an open question. that may delay this further. but he is a solid choice, i think, and that is part of the reason why i think the doj was willing to assent to this. >> but let's stay on this. you just said, it might delay this thing further. and dearie has until november 30th. barb, in everything we have seen from donald trump, everything is delay, delay,
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slow play things and see what kind of power he has at the end. how much farther delayed can all of this get? because we are going to turn the corner and he's going to try to run for president again. >> we have seen, certainly, stephanie, that he is the master of this game. think back to those subpoenas that were served years ago for his talks records, by cy vance in new york, he was the master of this game. he appealed it all the way to the supreme court and even after the supreme court ruled against him, then he filed more appeals as the lower court judge tried to administer those orders. and so he will stall every step of the way. the one thing that encourages me about this case is, once this review is over in november, if there is an appeal, it could take a little bit longer. this is not the kind of case that takes months and months and months to investigate. simply having these documents is itself the crime. and so i think that once this
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review is completed, it could be charged in fairly short order. but you raise a very good question. but yoi think an announcement oa campaign is not enough to preclude clinical charges. but once donald trump starts running four races and primaries in early 2024, i think that is when the justice department's policy about election sensitivities could kick in. so, they have got about a year and a quarter of a year to get this done. but i am sure that the battle's on between donald trump on the justice department to see who can win that race. >> okay. well, trump, of course, has given no explanation as to why he took the documents. but he has said over and over that he declassified them. our own kristen welker as more on that story. >> the former president is striking a defiant tone in a radio interview today, a month after the unprecedented search of his mar-a-lago home. the fbi saying they seized more than 1000 government documents,
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including 100 that were marked classified. today, mr. trump saying he verbally declassified every document he had taken with him to mar-a-lago. >> i have the absolute right to declassify. absolutely. a president has that absolute right. >> mr. trump's legal team, however, has not explicitly said in its findings, that the president declassified all the documents. >> okay, so right there, melissa murray. if trump did declassify this, his legal team would absolutely file that. but they didn't because then they would be potentially perjuring themselves. what does it mean -- >> -- >> what does it mean that trump now says, i declassified, it on hugh hewitt's show. could this now come back to bite him? as he locked himself into a defense? >> i don't know if it's necessarily something that will come back to bite him. he says a number of things at any given time. and most of those things are speeches and this is certainly one of the most specious claims. if in fact he was able to declassify all of these
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documents and to do so verbally, there would be a huge procedure of, and certain protocols to go through the process of the classification. and that in fact this happen. again, i sort of blanca declassification or really seems beyond the pale here. i think that is why you don't see any of his lawyers trumpeting this as a possible defense. whether he chooses to raise this going further is another matter entirely. but again i think this is one of those sort of claims that gets made overblown and over trumpeted, that again, is typical, for the former president and those around him. >> john, there is so much news out there. politico is reporting that trump may be spouting a lot of things but his allies are really shaken by the january 6th investigation. what more do we know about that? right? because we are focused on mar-a-lago. but there is a lot going on here. yeah there's nothing that set spends a chill of someone's spine than getting a subpoena from the justice department. and the subpoenas are flying right now as we've seen with
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the reporting of a variety of sources. with nbc news, what we've got now is a ton of topics being covered. you look no further than the capital building behind me, over my shoulder right now. to know where some of this is coming some. the january six committee. we've already got a preview. the big collectors, we've already got a discussion of alternate collectors. of course it's being a little euphemistic. the state elector platform. but basically what you have is a lot of trump people worried about their own skins now. that's what the justice department wants. people who may decide to give up what they know to save themselves. >> melissa, is a big deal that it is been reported that mark meadows is complying with the subpoena. we don't actually know what he is saying? >> well, but it's not the trouble that he is cooperating. i don't think that's the take that we should have. he's complying with the subpoena which is his obligation to do under the law. unless he has some sort of pertinent reason to squash the
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subpoena but he simply applying information that has been requesting. it's not the same as flipping on the president. and again, to talk about it again akin to cooperation is distracting here. this is just meant to distract. this is a meaningful development, but it does not mean that mark meadows has flipped or that he is turning on the former president. >> john, the topics of the subpoenas that the doj are handing out have a lot of overlap with the january 6th committee. what does that tell you? >> it tells me that there is, and has been true all along, there is an audience of one for the january six committee. and that is merrick garland. and with all the subpoenas, the things that they are looking at. the justice department team is listening to what the january six committee is doing. but that committee's work has put pressure in some ways on the justice department to act.
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and they are following all the leads. and i'm sure they were doing some of the work before but all of the public pressure, it comes from the revelations that we have seen. it appears to be followed up upon. >> those days? the doj. jonathan allen, barb mcquade, think you because i want to do another segment on melissa's unbelievable show tonight. coming up, americas workers have the threat to strike! a strike that would shut down the entire country supply chain. just to get something much any of us take for granted. six days! they are here next. and later, the cool political stunt from governor ron desantis, at the expense of desperate people. and he used tax dollars to do it! and, conspiracy theories and lies are fueling the hate filled lies that president biden addressed today. the surprising story about where some of them come from. that's later! the 11th hour just getting underway on a thursday night
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workers, 80% of these workers that rock a while road don't have a fixed schedule. a lot of these folks don't have an monday to friday 9 to 5. they're working when a train is going out. those workers leave their home, they're on a train 36 hours away. they stay in a hotel. they go on a train. come back home.
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these workers are working a very challenging and dangerous industry. >> sure is. rail workers unions and freight well companies have reached a tentative deal to avoid a strike. after three long years of negotiations. rail workers gained concessions on several things that many of us take, for granted every day. i want to just give you one example as nbc reports. employees will now be able to take unpaid time off work for routine preventive medical care. i want to say this one more time. now, they won't be at risk of losing their jobs if they need to miss work for medical treatment. and they won't even get paid on the day. let's discuss, massachusetts congressman seth moulton, he's on the committee. congressman, these workers were asking for very basic concessions like an extra personal day off. a raise, a time offer medical care. why was it so hard, three years to get here? >> i mean, it's insane. and we should be talking about
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paid medical leave and not unpaid medical leave, the idea that you can even take a six-day. you can't go get surgery without being docked in some cases, being threatened with being fired and some real words have a point system that will take away point system if you take a six-day. to take care of yourself or your family. so there is a lot of ways in which the rail industry is critical to our economy, it takes 40% of our goods across the country, and it's modernized rapidly, there's a lot of ways in which the system is unbelievably archaic. and the way that it treats as workers as one of those waves. >> okay well, just today. i see people. some people freaking out when they say, oh my gosh, these rail workers get a 24% raise. how come that upsets people more than the fact that in this country we have ceos on average, of 400 companies that get paid 350 times more than the workers who and when they fill out their jobs they get to leave
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with golden parachutes and multi million dollar exit packages. how did we get here? >> that's right, and let's just put this in sharp terms for the rail industry specifically, the ceo of canadians pacific, saw his pay go up 920% in 2007 to 2020. 920%. not 24%, 920%. that's a ceo. >> i need you to tell our audience this one more time. the ceo of the company, his pay went up over a 14 year span on 920%? >> 920%. that's right. and we're freaking out over a 24% rate over five years. and they still don't get paid when their sick. >> okay, you are not just the congress person. you are an eye levy league and educated man. educate me. to lead this whole potential strike, really exposes how
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extreme income inequality has gotten in this country. you have people doing essential work, hard labor. that if they would've had the strike, it would've hurt our economy, it would've disrupted our supply chain. when all they are asking for is a basic day off? how did we get to this point? this country with the american dream, all that american exceptionalism? i don't even get it? >> that is exactly right. since i was born in 1978, we have seen worker pay go up about 20%, 20% in 43 years and that is it. that's a ceo pay that is gone up hundreds and hundreds percent of that time. so the income gap has only gotten wider and it keeps getting wider and what workers are asking for is pretty basic stuff. at the same time in the last few years, the railroads have actually cut the workforce by about a third. so a third of the people who
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had jobs at railroads just a few years ago aren't even part of the discussion because they are just out of work and they've had to go get other jobs, so we've got along great go here and the essentials are in the same period. the railroads have been pursuing a policy called precision schedule railroading, which not only dramatically cuts the rail force but cuts services to customers. it's a very good thing when we have cargo and freight going by rail and the single train can take 200 trucks off the highway but that is a lot of responsibility for the two man crew. the two person crew. running that train. the responsibility that would rest on the shoulders of 200 truckers. rail is very good for the environment. it's good for our economy. but, we treat our railroad hers like, i shouldn't say. so we have a long way to go
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here and you are absolutely right. and what the workers are demanding is actually really really basic facts. >> you know they, do not get special treatment. but you know who does? members of congress. i need to ask you about something. we have talked about a lot on the show. the proposed congressional stock trading ban that has over 600 sponsors on both sides of the aisle. bipartisanship is not something that we see often. for months and months congress woman like abigail spielberg or has been trying to get this thing to a vote on the floor. yesterday for the first time nancy pelosi said that they are getting closer and they are working on it. and today jeff merkley told business insider of vote won't happen before the midterms. what can you tell us? >> well look. we saw this play out with covid and that was perhaps the most dramatic example where you had republican senators going into covid briefings and learning how terrible this was. dumping all of their medical
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staff. >> i do need to interrupt you for a minute. i said 600, i meant 60. you can put all of this on republicans. i think democrats do the same thing. >> i think that the republicans going out to the american public in lying is a big deal. but the bottom line is, you are right. these are basic reforms. you cannot have anyone on the house or the senate abusing the privilege of the office and the privilege of the information that we get. i don't know? i mean the bill originated in the senate. it's amazing to me that they can't simply have a vote on it. >> do you think that you view will be voting on it before you go into recess? >> look, if it doesn't come out of the senate. we won't get a vote on it in the house. >> all right then, we will be watching. we will be covering it. we will be talking about it. congressman seth moulton, good to be seeing you. thanks for joining me tonight. >> when we come back, charted
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flights a marthasville neared. sounds like a nice vacation right? it's not. it's the cruel stunt of two republican governors to ship migrants from the border into democratic cities. and it turns out? it was all on the taxpayers time. political cruelty when the 11th hour continues! hour continues hase freedom unlimited. that's a lot of cash back. are you gonna stop me? uh-oh... i'm almost there... too late! boom! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. snoring? because quality sleep is vital, the sleep number 360 smart bed can gently raise your partner's head to help. ah...that's better. our smart sleepers get 28 minutes more restful sleep per night. save 30% on the sleep number 360 special edition smart bed. only for a limited time. if you have age-related macular degeneration, there's only so much time before it can lead to blindness. but the areds 2 clinical study showed that a specific nutrient formula can help reduce the risk of dry amd progression. ask your doctor now about an areds 2 supplement.
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is taking credit for sending airplanes carrying migrants to martha's vineyard. the orlando sentinel confirming that they's chartered two planes yesterday to take pick up 50 undocumented migrants. including children. from san antonio, texas. to martha's vineyard. and now people have mobilized to help in the best way they can. nbc's karen sanders has more. >> 48 venezuelan migrants, the youngest only three years old. flown to martha's vineyard wednesday. we'll spend another night in a local church. officials said that they were given no notice that the migrants were headed their. the chartered flights to the wealthy, heavily democratic enclave. where former president obama has a home. arranged by florida republican governor ron desantis. >> every community in america should be sharing in the burdens. it shouldn't all fall on red states. >> a protest against president biden's border policies. that desantis said have read to
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a record surge of migrants. >> what would be for the best, is for biden to do his damn job and secure the border! >> and the local community rallied to help the migrants today. >> some have been through really horrific things. >> with us tonight to discuss, democratic pollster an msnbc political analyst, friend, and mark mckinnon joins us. former adviser the john w. bush and john mccain. he's also among the co-hosts of the circus on showtime. i'm not gonna talk about the lack of humanity and the cruelty. i wanna talk about the money. this power grid is hanging by a thread. florida? they have infrastructure problems, climate problems, they have a teacher shortage that is huge! why are those governors spending tax dollars on stunts like this? who does it serve? >> it serves them. it's a convenient political tool. we've come a long way since
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[inaudible] yearning to be free. and in the republican party ronald reagan was a big advocate of immigrants. and i remember 99, bush ran on the issue of inflation even though it was volatile to do so. he said he thought it was the right thing to do. and i think about that, stephanie, and that was 1999. it's been a third of my life since the presidents have been trying to do something and congress has been trying to do something about immigration reform. bush got close with 9/11, but it cut him and bruins that with mexico right after that. and it didn't happen. and it hasn't happened since. but desantis makes a relevant point though, which is that the burden should be shared. this is an issue where joe biden is playing defense.
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and really hasn't done anything proactive. and i don't think many people can cite, including the president himself, what he is done on the border. and why should the southern states bear that burden? and they're bearing the burden of having to support lots of resources, and tax money, for those people coming across the border. so he has a point. >> he may have a -- >> and by the way, let me just add stephanie. the department of homeland security has been arguing that with the biden administration to do a program just like this. it's called interior processing. and taking migrants to l.a., and to places near the canadian border. with advanced notice. so that they can be prepared for it. so this is something that biden could be doing, and republicans took it and wasted it away. >> but hold on mark. that is not a program just like it. right? this doesn't have advance notice. you are taking people with young children, ripping them out -- >> i agree that biden shouldn't be doing it! why isn't biden doing it? >> i don't know.
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fernand. what do you think about that. to floridians feel like this is an unfair burden for them? and the way that ron desantis is going about solving it? they're into that? >> well first of stephanie, i think it's important to clarify the term, political stunt. a political stance is doctor oz running for the senate in pennsylvania when he resides in new jersey. a political stunt is kanye west running for president. a political stunt is jared kushner writing a book that people don't want to read. this is not a political stunt. when you look at parents that are bringing their children to this country and a process for asylum. and light them under false circumstances. and telling them you're taking them somewhere under false pretenses, and using them as props? that is not a political stunt. that is an act of evil! and it is an act of evil being done by evil man! who are using children and good faith parents, coming to this
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country. the land of the free an opportunity. like my parents said, and grandparents stayed, and shaming them for political points! in the most cynical calculation stephanie! what is going on here, is they're trying to change the conversation from the dobbs decision, overturning roe versus wade. and making it about immigration. but it is the most cynical, cheap, and evil tactic. and i don't think it's going to play here in florida. i think that ron desantis overreach this time! >> mr. mackinnon? >> well again, i just raise the point that the department of homeland security has been arguing this on their own network. they've been arguing to do a program just like this, but with advanced notice saying let's take some of these people and selling them to l.a., or chicago, or the northern border. so they have time to have the resources, and, home facilities and what have you to take care of them. so biden were doing it, desantis couldn't have been doing it. so biden ought to do it!
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>> you think if biden were doing this, desantis would be out there saying thanks joe biden. i'm really glad you are taking the burden off of florida? you think he would do that? >> it's better than where he's already sending them? >> i don't know. fernand, what do you think? >> i just think it's absurd. this idea that we are going to use people, and human beings that are coming, and again in a lawful process to seek asylum from a regime. as political pawns, and political props. that is not what is going on here. it would be one thing if governor desantis, or, abbott were acting in good faith. and sitting down with these individuals up and across the border seeking asylum. saying where would you want to go? another area? but the cavalierly send them. as ron desantis said with a videographer on the plane so he could capture this. and have his minions at fox news waiting for when the plan landed to put it on the air. it is the most to basing, and
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on american, an american act of evil that i've seen! it's made me a shame to be a floridian under this governor! my parents came in 1962, thanks to president kennedy and the governor of florida who allowed them to come here. they made a successful life. that is part of the reason why i am here talking on this network tonight. but to treat these individuals, these people who come here in good faith. as political props? is evil! >> mark. to your point. even if the spirit of this is supported. even if there were a more humane way to do it, that the department of homeland security could? this isn't what they did. and according to the florida budget, the money for the migrant relocation came off of interest that was earned from federal covid relief funds. given that, is the way that desantis executed this even legal? i mean, covid isn't eradicated in florida? >> i know. the line that i saw, stephanie,
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is that he appropriated $12 million from the florida budget. so, maybe i that is not accurate. but, he is using migrants as a political toll. and that's, it's not in line with our american ideals. no question about that. i just wish joe biden had taken the opportunity to do what his own department of homeland security said and get ahead of this. so he could pull the rug out from under them. why didn't he get ahead of this? >> so you really think that these migrants, who are now suddenly in martha's vineyard, no idea where they are. many of whom are met venezuelan, who make their money. i really just gonna make their way back down to florida. where there is infrastructure, and they have family members. you think that this is okay that it would go down like this mark? >> now. but all i'm saying is that the part payments of homeland security officials have been arguing to the president, why
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don't we share the burden across america. why don't we send migrants to different cities around america. why don't we give them advanced notice so that when they get their, they have resources. they have food, they have shelter, and instead they didn't do anything, much to the frustration of biden's own homeland security department. and then, so, abbott and desantis could take advantage of the inaction. he could've done it! >> could've done it. and now it's a political stunt that cost a lot of money, and hurt a lot of people. fernand and mark thank you for joining us. i really appreciate it! coming up, the president addresses the violence caused by hatred. some of it fueled by lies and conspiracies. up next we're gonna show you what some of these lies and conspiracy theories even come from? some you've even heard, guess where! trump rallies! what that's when the 11th hour continues! hour continues! that's a lot of cash back.
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for in silence, wounds deepen. >> president biden, once again blasting kate fueled political violence in our nation. violence that exists in large part, because of lies and conspiracies. we are all very familiar with donald trump's big lie. but one that sparked the capitol riot. but there are many other lies about things like barack obama's birthplace, and the so-called deep state. and the new peacock docuseries, shadow land. aims to explore it all. >> a conspiracy theory is a theory that there is someone bigger that is pulling the strings. >> wealthy, powerful families that control everything. >> the nazis are coming! they're here! >> our elections [inaudible] . >> you devil worshipping
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satanist which. >> all [inaudible] in this country has been eliminated! >> there is money to be made here. >> people are dying that don't need to. >> they are trying to manufacture anger. >> i miss my dad all the time. >> that's pulling people in. >> i'm never going to talk to him again. >> here with us tonight, joe berliner. oscar nominated documentary, filmmaker, and executive producer of shadow land. all six episodes of the series will premiere september 21st on peacock. this is a stunning piece of work that you put together. i won it, did any one person, one event, get us to this point? >> that's a great question. you know, the easy answer is, first of all thank you for having me. big fan of the show. the easy answer of course is, social media. but i actually looked further back. there was a time when there were three networks and there
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was a dividing line between the news division and the entertainment division. at a certain point, the line fell. and ratings, and selling ads, and all of that stuff became important for news. and then the explosion of cable networks, and 24 hours news cycle. generally, our media culture has allowed a lot of opinion to get into the dialogue. and that then intersected with social media. it's been a decades long progression of where, people just don't know what the truth is. well certainly people don't know what the truth is. it's deeply troubling. my iphone is the greatest device that you could imagine. we've never had more information available at our fingertips. but, there's never been a time when the truth has been so elusive for so many people. and i think that this has been
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destroying a moth democracy. and for the show, what i really wanted to do was not get into the pointing and -- where we demonize one another. and each side looks at the other side as two dimensional human beings. and we don't have any dialogue anymore. and i think that that is the thing destroying the democracy. it will destroy democracy. people can't come together and compromise. and so, instead of doing the usual finger-pointing, i wanted to do a deep dive into the world of conspiracy thinking, understand, or at least try to understand how people come to their views. without judgment. >> what i found most fascinating. when you follow these stories, what you ended up falling is the money. people don't realize that much of this whole conspiracy theory universe, is really a multi billion dollar industry. alex jones, probably the best known. but he's only the tip of the iceberg, isn't he? >> exactly. people what we follow a guy
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named pastor locke who wants to build his church. we followed people who wanted to sell products. so there are people who know better. there are political leaders who know better. there are people in congress who know better. but they are taking advantage and manipulating regular people for whom life has not gone well. and they're looking for an answer. so that's the thing that's shameful, i find, and our leaders who are known and promoting conspiracy theories. but what we've learned, what we spent time with. a woman in rural pennsylvania. she owns a pizza shop. we're driving through rural pennsylvania and stopped off at a pizza shop. and she was a lovely person. and we said in chat with her, and she feels that, america. and yet she's in january 6th, in the capital, calling for nancy pelosi's head. and she sitting in prison right now awaiting trial. but she deeply believes, i want
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to have empathy for these people who, because of the people who are making money off of her, manipulating her politically. i want to have some empathy to try to understand where these people are coming from so that we can talk. because if we do not talk, we are headed down a very dangerous path. in my opinion. >> decency, empathy, compassion. those are things that we all need to have. calling for nancy pelosi's head and storming the capitol? not so much. joe berliner, thank you so much. and you at home can watch shadow land on peacock starting wednesday. highly recommend it. coming up! the political summit hold by those two governors isn't an original idea. we will show you the same stunt from 60 years ago. when the 11th hour continues! the 11th hour continues and now we're providing 88 billion dollars to support underserved communities... ...helping us all move forward financially. pnc bank: see how we can make a difference for you.
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only a shopping bag. with perhaps one change of clothing. no money, knowing nobody, it was one of the most inhuman things that i have ever seen. >> the last thing before we go tonight, the reverse freedom rides. ron desantis's cruel stunt yesterday echoes one quote 60 years ago. and 1962, a group of conservatives furious of the civil rights movement, and the south the year before, a cruel planned to upset liberals in the north. they handed out flyers like this one on the street. recruiting several black families to get on buses to northern states, with a false promise of good jobs and housing when they arrived. one place in particular was cape cod. where the kennedys vacationed. take a look at what the architects of the reverse freedom rides had to say at the time. >> the ultimate accomplishment of course has already been a thing, and that is to focus
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attention on the hypocrisy of the northern levels and the naacp lead especially. >> we have planned to continue it until those people in the majority tell those politicians that we are through with this foolishness about civil rights and things that you are using for political purposes. >> sound familiar? well the joke was on them. much like it is en route governor ron desantis. because look community rallied around these families who arrived in cape cod. as the historian put it, the white conservatives who are behind that campaign then actually underestimated that decency of many ordinary people. and we are seeing the same very thing today and martha's vineyard. restaurant, students, people all over volunteering to help those in need. it is an important reminder never ever underestimate the decency of ordinary people. and without decency? you have nothing. and on that note, i wish


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