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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  September 20, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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on fear and lies. and if you're not exactly sure where to start, nbc has a website for you, called plan your vote, with a state by state guide to voter registration deadlines, voting rules, mail-in and in-person voting. it set nbcnews.com/planyourvote statue plan your vote. very importantly, it's available both in english and spanish, so you had no excuse. do it. that's tonight's read out. all in with chris hayes that's right now. right no w. tonight on all in -- >> we may be able to decide all this without seeing declassified documents. >> the first special master hearing not looking good for the disgraced ex president. tonight, trump's absurd argument for keeping classified documents and just where he was getting his legal advice. >> as far as i am concerned, trump should get every single record i took back, not just his passports. >> and the lawsuit and criminal
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investigation into ron desantis's stunt. >> somebody saw fit to come from another state, let them down, prey upon them and then take advantage of their desperate situation just for the sake of political theater. >> plus lindsey graham doubles down on a losing political issue, and the state of play with a bit terms with my guest bernie sanders, when all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i am chris hayes. donald trump's lawyers were in court today for the first hearing before the newly appointed special master, who is tasked with reviewing the classified documents. the fbi seized from trump's home in florida. in the courtroom, his lawyers were essentially tasked with defending the indefensible. the ex president claimed that he had a right to keep the roughly 11,000 documents from mar-a-lago, and that he has privilege that confers ownership on him with respect to the 300 documents found with classified markings.
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that position that is lawyers argue today does not make any sense. some pointed out that it all boils out to donald trump's belief that he is still, as of today, here in september of 2022, president of the united states. that he still has the powers of the executive branch, that those documents, the vast majority of which are clearly covered by the presidential records act, should be government property, that does documents belong to him to do with whatever he wants. that's the core point from which this whole dispute flows. of course, donald trump is not the president because he lost the election in 2020, fair and square, no matter what he says, no matter how much he wants about it. he is no longer president, and he no longer has any at the powers that goes along with that office. but trump is not care about that. he kept a documents anyway, even though, and this is key, his own lawyers warned him not to do it over and over and over again. as the new york times reported earlier this summer, trump's deputy white house counsel, pat
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philbin, tried to help the national archives retrieved material that donald trump took, but the former president repeatedly resisted -- saying, quote, it's not there is, it's mine. an email obtained by the times last month shows white house counsel pat cipollone also determined that the record should have been turned over to the record national archives. just today, we learned another trump white house lawyer, eric herschmann, sought to impress upon trump the seriousness of the issue, the potential for investigations and legal exposure if he did not return the documents. that was last year. it was one warning, it was multiple warnings, for multiple lawyers, about the same thing, saying the same thing. the last one being this gentleman you see there, mr. herschmann, you may remember him from the first impeachment trial, when he was trying to convince all of us that donald trump had done nothing wrong and could be trusted. he also delivered compelling testimony to the january six
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committee, including this story about the vice that he gave who memo author john eastman after january six. >> i only want to hear two words come out of your mouth from now on, orderly transition. i don't want to hear any other effing words come out of your mouth other than orderly transition. repeat those words to me. >> what did he say? >> eventually, he said, orderly transition. he said, good john, now i will give you the best legal vice you would ever get in your life, get a great effing criminal defence lawyer, you will need it. and then i hung up on him. >> we don't know if herschmann is quite so tough when he is actually in the midst of a conflict situation, but you can imagine how the baseball bat of justice might have delivered the message to donald trump that he was violating the law and had to get documents back. but, it was surely a familiar scene for donald trump. throughout the ex president's life and career, his impulse is
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always, always, to do sketchy and unlawful things, to cut corners and get away with stuff while the lawyers around him tell that he cannot do those things. what is remarkable, honestly, is that in most cases, trump has a fine-tuned antenna for just how close he can get to the line without crossing into outright easily probable crimes. that has saved him many times before, but this time, it appears that he stepped right over the line, the crystal clear line that is lawyers told him. to understand why that finally happened, yet to loosen to what he -- he was ignoring his highly qualified white house lawyers philbin, that's baloney, eric richmond. instead, he was reportedly taking the advice of this guy -- >> we want to know about the deep state effort to overthrow the president of the united states. in many ways, it's remarkable that a president is a crime victim. he was targeted illegally by
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the about ministration. >> if he does not want to fire mueller directly -- everyone caught up in it or indirectly, the subject or target, you name it, just pardon it all. >> i think the raid was a fraud, abuse and sham. there was no basis to target trump here with this outrageous raid and all those workers he has are his records, and they should stop pretending that just because they think their presidential records, and they think it's classified, that's the final answer, and ain't. >> that's a guy named tom thin. he's like a second, third tier conservative activists, head of the right-wing group, judicial watch. they have been around forever. a somewhat ludicrous figure honestly. i put a minute ginni thomas category at american right. imagine a more senior james o'keefe on steroids. as political puts it, fitton has made a career of suing the federal government suspected of
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bureaucratic corruption, irritating every president since bill clinton. the group is tormented to cleanse for nearly 20 years, uncovered documents on the scandals to store, from whitewater to travel gate to the suicide of -- he has been at this a long time, basically a right-wing rabble rouser. he's found an enthusiastic booster in don trump, surprise, surprise. -- fitton has been boosting trump for years. he takes credit as one of the first public figures to criticize the mueller investigation as corrupt and unconstitutional. i should note here, tom fit in is not a lawyer. he's just a dude with big money wrangling donors, i guess. but he has been giving donald trump a lot of legal voice that the ex president is actually listening to. since as early as february, fitton has reportedly called trump, telling him that it was a mistake to take the records from mar-a-lago -- that the team should never avalon him to return them.
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fitton said the records belonged to trump, setting a 2012 court case involving his organization that said the former president to do what he wanted -- he suggested that if the archives came back, he should not give up any additional records. trump, quote, began obsessing over fitton arguments, complaining to aids about the 15 boxes that were handed over, even ask fitton at one point to brief's attorneys. i am sure that they love that one. as one person close to the ex president put a, quote, the moment tom got in the bosses ear, it was downhill from there. it's like the overstock guy or the pillow guy. tom fitton, professional right-wing scandal monger, appears to have facilitated the kind of black and white easily probable crime that donald trump on his own has managed to avoid. it's really an amazing feat of all people, tom fitton, who ended up putting donald trump in arguably the most acute legal power he has ever been in,
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well played. that legal peril was on full display today at the brooklyn courthouse, where judge raymond dearie, the newly appointed special master, or the arguments of the ex presidents lawyers, who repeated trump's claims that he declassify the documents. judge dearie said the government gave him clear evidence that these are classified documents, as far as he's concerned, that's the end of it. his lawyers responded by basically saying they don't yet want to make their case about why the documents are not classified. judge dearie told him that he would go ahead to continue businesses in court. quote, you can't have your cake and eat it. andrew weissmann spent years working in the department of justice. he most recently served as lead prosecutor in robert mueller's special counsel investigation. he's also in the brooklyn courtroom today for the first hearing of the special master, and he joins me now at the table. great to have you. >> nice to be here. >> give us a rundown of your impressions of tonight. >> the first impression was it
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was like landing back on china earth. it just felt so normal, having been in front of the judge theory, he was quintessential judge dearie, low-key firm, people who confuse him being polite with him not being firm, making a big mistake, and then he ran a tight ship. you're supposed to start at 2:00. at 2:00 he's on the bench. in 40 minutes it's over, and he put both parties through the paces. that's the atmosphere, he was in full control, and from the outset, as you noted, he was not having any bs from either side. he made it really clear to a think public that this is a civil case, meaning that the plaintiff in the case has the burden. this is not a criminal case where the government needs to prove something beyond reasonable doubt, and then he pointedly set, if you don't present any evidence to me,
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trump, then, i am left with the records that i have. i have evidence that these documents are classified. if you decide for whatever reason that you do not want to present any evidence, that's fine, you don't have to but he then went ahead and said that this case comes very easy. i think that just means that he signaling i will then have a record in front of me, where there is no dispute that these are classified, and he certainly not the turn classified documents over -- that he wants the documents to be turned over to him to mar-a-lago, it's clearly not going to happen. >> he says, as i understand it, look, we have these documents, which judge cannon, who has created my position, seems to think are disputed, right? the question is, what is the dispute? >> exactly. >> he comes before the party and says, okay, one side, the government says, these are documents, as is clearly
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identifiable by the fact that they are marked classified. >> that would be, as the judge set, people faxai evidence. >> if something is marked classified, the government owns it. the other side in the the speed -- >> what do you got? >> where do you have? what do you say? why is it yours? and they said -- >> one of the things they set, judge, it might be premature for us to actually have to come up with evidence, and the judge snidely but politely said, and yet you managed to bring a lawsuit, meaning it does not work that way. you bring a lawsuit when you have a claim, not because you were searching for a claim. the judge clearly is not going to have any of that. he is going to say, look, you had the burden, are you going to repeat this or not? if you don't refute it, the judge's job is to decide a conflict. if there is no conflict, that's the end of the story, and i
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thought one of the more telling things was that he said, i may not need to actually see the actual contacts of the cause of a documents. that becomes irrelevant, whether it's top secret, compartmentalize, none of the parties -- obviously, the government can see it, but trump does not need to see it. if you are not going to the speed that they are classified, then how do you get the remedy, which is that these documents got back to you? that's clearly the conundrum here for the trump team. >> as i was reading -- i was actually reading your notes on this, which we were sent today, because you are there, and they were extremely helpful. as i was reading it, and i cannot help wonder, obviously, this is speculative, so don't wait on this, the judge can equate the situation so that she would not have to be the one to say what dearie is saying? basically, outsourced into this guy, what is that dispute here? because she could have said that herself. >> she could be doing all of this. there is no reason for her to have another federal judge -- remember, judge dearie is a sitting federal judge that can
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do something, but the government looked out that she decided to not have her fingerprints on this. it makes it a lot easier for her to have plausible deniability and to prove what happened. chris, the other thing i thought was interesting was the judge made it clear that his timeline was actually faster than either of the parties. he started by saying that there should be responsible dispatch. that was his quote. he put out a proposal to the parties that we have not seen it, that it would be done in four weeks. that's faster than other side. it's obviously a lot faster than the trump side, but it's even faster than the government was anticipating, and i think that's because judge dearie being so experience, saying that this is not complicated, let's move along from point a to z and get it done. >> what is the next step here then? i guess the question is, can they throw a monkey wrench into
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the procedure works here without raising an actual claim or to speed on a specific document or set of them? >> i think the next thing that will happen is that we will get a schedule that the judge will hear from both sides in very short order, and he is going to issue an order that sets out exactly what each side has to do. at some point in that order, i anticipate that it will say to the trump team, you need to make a motion where there is no motion right now to return property. you need to make that. pointedly, one of the things that he has seemed to set -- why is that not going back to the magistrate judge who decided this matter? i think that is really the next step, but i think it will happen very quickly. the people who thought that this was going to be a speed bump, i think that seems right in terms of where we will be two months from now. we will certainly look back on this and say, thank goodness for judge dearie moving this along. >> they presented evidence that
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several across -- the press -- they are prima faxai classified, what business is it on the court? my largest question here -- actually, under meyer theory, you don't get the touch, this i guess the question is, is constipation reviewable thing by article three branches? >> the government very poorly did not do a lot today, and frankly, when you are ahead, that is the right strategy. >> but appeal favorable rulings. >> exactly, can't look back. they did make the point to the judge though that their view is that it is the executive decides what is classified and what they can do with it. so, and judge dearie said i understand that is your view. i think that there was a dispute whether these were classified are not, and then he would have a different role --
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>> you had to make an informative. case >> exactly, just remember, trump is the point of here, so that will be his burden. judge dearie was loudly saying, put up or shut up, and he did it in a traditional way. >> andrew weizmann, thank you so much. >> you're welcome. >> coming up, florida governor ron desantis said he wanted to be mean to government -- immigrants, and now that is blowing up in his face. >> here we have 48 people, ready on hard times. they're here legally in our country at that point. they have every right to be where they are, and i believe that they were preyed upon. someone came from out of state, porta-potties people. >> some strong words from the law enforcement in the county of texas for those folks who were recruited. the latest on the new investigation into the cruel stunt next. stunt next or sharp, stabbing pains. ♪♪ this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks.
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c'mon kids. this. sucks. well if you just switch maybe you don't have to be vampires. whoa... okay, yikes. oh sorry, i wasn't thinking. we don't really use the v word. that's kind of insensitive. we prefer day-adjacent. as we understand it, 48 i'll go man-pire.
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migrants were lured, and i will use the word lure, under false pretenses. they were taken to martha's vineyard from what we can gather for nothing -- for a little more than a photo up, video up, and then they were unceremoniously stranded. when you are playing with human lives, what people are already in a desperate situation, people, again, had every right to be where they were, but were lured under false pretenses, that does tend to bother me, quite a bit.
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suffice to say, we will be opening up a case. >> that was the share of -- that's when agents of the state of florida appeared to lure approximately 50 markets of the state of texas to board a plane that briefly stopped in florida and then drop them off in an island in massachusetts. here is the thing, there are a bunch of outstanding questions about just what happened that the folks in bexar county will be taking into. chief among them, as judge marshall talking points memo rights, who is perla? perla is one of the migrants arriving in massachusetts who reportedly paid them $200 for the fight. who hired? her who paid her? what did you come from? did anyone talk to her? how exactly did she get a 48 people in the plane? what did she tell them? marc caputo is a national news reporter for nbc digital.
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he's been reporting on the margins who left from texas to martha's vineyard, and he joins me now. mark, i feel like the initial reaction here -- it does appear that there is some pretty outstanding question about the facts at issue here. bessent's goes on last night, and he refers to the vendor, okay? the vendor that the state contract one. it's like they are ordering food for the cafeteria and the capitol. who is the vendor? who do you google at the state of florida to be like, we need a vendor that goes and tells migrants to get on a plane and go to massachusetts? >> we've asked that question, we've asked a cop before the contract, we've asked for names, but got none of it. florida has a general broad and generous law, but so far, the governor's office has not given public record. it suddenly, governor charlie crist has filed a public request records request that has not been filed to --
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responded to other. >> again, florida law, i've never been a reporter in florida, but i know it has good loss, but you can't generally, the bureaucracy of state government is that it's not that easy to throw money around four off books operation. you've got to get bits and contractors, and there's all these rules. presumably, we will find out at some point, who is perla? how much does he get paid? and what was she told? >> ali, it looks like the law enforcement route might be the fastest way to do it. the bexar county sheriff that you referenced, if it does investigate, according to the reports we have seen for the markets who landed at martha's vineyard, they were given cell phone numbers, phone numbers up perla or these other people that they've had contact with and they had problems. when the folks arrived at martha's vineyard, suddenly, the numbers did not work. there are phone numbers there for the phone company to find the trump people down. yeah, information will be
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discovered. the question is, what we found out from one, i don't want to bet on that. >> one of the items that came across to was this pressure. i am sure that you have seen was given to these migrants. again, what sort of gross here is what clearly happened is that somebody pointed off some section of the massachusetts state refugee information about things available to refugees, but these people were not refugees. it's a different legal category and none of the stuff and the pressure applied to them, right? >> i wrote about this is a day. it's actually the office of immigration and refugees in massachusetts. they finally answered my question today, the massachusetts office. they said, look, this brush or did not come from us, so some agent of the state or a vendor, to use desantis's word, decided to pull disinformation, apparently, online and put in a brush or. to your point, a migrant seeking asylum is part of a process. a refugee is an immigration
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status. and asylum seeking migrant, and asylum seeker is not a refugee and, therefore, does not qualify for benefits that is listed in the pressure, which is stuff like housing assistance, cash assistance, job assistance and the like. that's kind of the core of the complaint from the various lawyers who are representing the various markets in the suit, they are saying, look, this is a smoking gun document showing that people were misled. the governor does say that people were not misled, he has said that these flights were humane, people were found homeless, they were fed, they were housed for a day at the expense of the state and then flown again from san antonio, texas, ultimately, to martha's vineyard and they were taken care of here. that's his position. >> yeah, they said it was all consented to, and you mentioned lawsuit, which i should mention. there is now a class action lawsuit brought by three of these individuals, defendants and their unidentified accomplices designed and executed a premeditated, fraudulent and illegal scheme centered on exporting this
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vulnerability for the cell purpose of advancing their own personal, financial and political interest. i do wonder -- the weirdest thing about this to me, and i have struggled tonight to not take the obvious bait that this entire spectacle was. a greg abbott and doug doocy our border state governors. they have people showing up in arizona and texas, and they are dealing with that and in some places, being kind of truly in the way that they are busting them to chicago and not letting city officials know. but those folks are showing up in the states. these people had no connection to florida, right? am i missing something here? [inaudible] what does florida have to do with any of this? >> i am going to answer just from what dissent is set, because i don't want to venture to guess on my own. his claim is since -- and most of these folks were from venezuela --
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the state research showed that as much ship 40% of those coming across the border from cuba, venezuela and nicaragua will ultimately wind up in florida, therefore, we should proactively go and get them. again, that's the states argument. you talk about how the governor gets this money, there is a line item in the state budget -- lettuce illini dome, language with it, that provides $12 million an interest accrued from unspent covid relief money, which set up the authorized aliens program, which enabled the governor to do this. now, if you accept the idea that the migrants were asylum seekers from venezuela, they technically were not unauthorized aliens. again, this is a term used in the state budget. my former coworker and friend, who works a political, he wrote yesterday that during a budget debate unrelated language, one other state senators, republican state senators, has said that, look, venezuelans are not unauthorized aliens.
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it turns out not only with these folks, according to the budget, supposed to be sent, quote, from the state, which is florida and therefore not texas, but, they were not considered unauthorized aliens if they happen to be from venezuela or asylum seekers from these countries. >> she said, come with me and i will make you fissures a man, but he did not mean it in this way. mark kudo, think you very much. >> thank you. >> still ahead, why republican attempts to restrict abortion or so popular, even republican voters cannot get on board next. rd next i say, “so are they.” ♪♪ aleve - who do you take it for? we all have heroes in our lives. someone who cares about other people and gives of themselves. to help others, who can't always help themselves. those are true heroes. and for a kid like me, who's had 13 operations, and can now walk, you
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me is that every pro-life group in america and about 70% of american people so i don't, apologize for being pro-life, i think the pro-life movement as found a position that most americans will agree upon. there will be plenty of pro-choice people that say in 15 weeks, we should ban a late term abortions, exceptions for rape and incest, life of the mother, the people are with me -- >> those aren't late term abortions, senator. republican lindsey graham, digging in continuing to defend a bill that he -- ban abortion 50 weeks presidency. which mcconnell and other republican senators have refused to support, not because they support abortion bans, obviously, they support them. but they know that opposing a federal abortion ban for the
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first time in this country's history, right now, weeks before the midterm election, almost certainly would further galvanize supporters who support abortion rights. case in point, back in august, we saw what happened when kansas tried to take this right away from the ballot measure and how it mobilized voters. in november, michiganders will vote on a ballot measure that will ensure an abortion rights into the state constitution. take a look at this new poll of michigan showing that about measure has support a 56% of voters, 22 opposed, 21 inside. here are the revealing numbers. republicans are split down the middle on this measure. in michigan, 36% supporting, 36% in opposition. you can see why many republican candidates are trying to soften their position on abortion or not talk about it, like ron desantis, before the midterms, or even better, avoid the topic altogether. joining me now, cecile richards, former president of planned parenthood --
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to seal, i wanted to talk to you tonight because you have watched this play out over the course of your political career and get your sense of where things are right now who stops, and how different they might have been say a year or two ago or five years ago? >> share, i think the important thing, chris, is that the republicans now are the dog that have caught the bus. they have tried to ban abortion, it's been in the platform, but now they have been able to gym enough people in the supreme courts to do this, and the consequences are becoming real. it's interesting, i just saw a poll from last week, 97% of voters in this country know that roe was overturned. that's more than any other issue that i can imagine in my lifetime. the republicans have frankly handled this so poorly. you see someone like lindsey graham saying that this is a states issue and then introducing a federal abortion ban. every single candidate in the
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most competitive states, michigan, pennsylvania, arizona, all four abortion bans. they are widely unpopular. you showed that in michigan, right? we are seeing right now that republicans are split evenly on the ballot initiative there. then in the state of kansas, the reports that they have done the analysis on who voted in the important test case there, in a state whereby almost 20 points, we won a bell initiative legalizing abortion and 51% of voters for republicans. thousands and thousands of republicans voted to protect safe and legal abortions in kansas. >> i was so struck by graham in that sound we played, where he said i am proudly pro-life, and i make no apologies for it. remind me of what mike pence said in that vp debate in 2020, when he was pressed on this. you can see that they awful back on this term.
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i am pro-life -- that pose well, probably, who does not like life. and it also does not point to anything specific or concrete about are we going to prosecute people, and what if a woman as a fetal abnormality that shows up at 15 or 17 weeks, what is she supposed to do that? all that wipes away, but they cannot run away from the specifics about repeating pro-life over and over. i guess that is what they will try. >> i know, i totally agree. of course, a woman stood up and asked senator graham that same thing. we are seeing this now, the reality of what is going to live in a state or a country that bans abortion, now as we have 13 states that have banned abortion. this stories are coming out. i think everyone now has heard the story of the ten-year-old girl in ohio, who literally had to go to indiana. the 16-year-old in florida who is the night access to a legal abortion because the judge said she was not mature enough to make that decision, yet somehow
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mature enough to be required to continue and unintended pregnancy. and the horrific stories of women forced to leave their state to access a safe and legal abortion, of course, under lindsey graham's legislation, a federal abortion plan, supported by republicans, women literally have to leave the country. this is not what the american people want. it is incredibly unpopular, and it really goes to the heart of freedom in this country, the freedom to make your own decisions about your pregnancy. that's something that people did not believe politicians should be deciding. particularly, someone like lindsey graham, who frankly will never be pregnant and will never know the consequences. >> a check into that republican opinion issue thanks so much the direction of how concrete the solace. graham is trying to get back to what they think is a good poll on base, which is 15 weeks. i thought that this was interesting, that a poll conducted and march found that most americans favored laws
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banning abortions after 15 weeks. a poll in august found the opposite. you already see boomed. once the thing is not an abstraction, it's concrete, they are trying to run back and say, how about this 15-week deal? people are like, no, we know what abortion bans look like, and we don't like it. we will see this continue to play out the next several weeks and after that. richards, thank you very much. >> thanks, chris. >> still to come, even though history is not in a favor, democrats have a real chance to make actual gains in the senate, to gain senators in the midterms. senator bernie sanders joins me next after this. next after this. it's going to take investing in some things you've heard of and some you'd never expect. it's going to take funding innovation in renewable energy, helping reduce carbon footprints, and big bets on environmentally conscious construction. citi has committed 1 trillion dollars in sustainable financing to help build a better future. because to reach net zero, it's going to take everything. ♪ ♪
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republican governor glenn -- ran at least on the surface an old school republican campaign. the kind, common during the george w. bush area. he's wearing a sweater vest, the focus on kitchen table issues. it presented himself as something of an anti trump. that was all just surface level stuff. trump endorsed him. youngkin, intern, paid lip service to trump's five election fraud, calling for an audit of the results. today, that's the reality for a lot of republicans. especially those running in a blue state like youngkin. they try to have it both ways. that position is ultimately untenable. eventually, you're gonna have to choose the side. to be clear, this is very
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successful blue state republican governors who rejected trump. charlie baker of massachusetts, larry hogan of maryland, phil scott of vermont are among the most popular governors in the entire country. but they are basically never trump republicans which means they have no future national politics. at least as far as we can see from here. glenn youngkin wants a future and national politics immediately, and clearly has ambitions to run for president one day. right, now that means embracing donald trump, so despite his apparent initial reluctance to be a trump supporter, virginia governor duncan has gone all in on team monica. case in point, next month, youngkin is traveling down to arizona to campaign for republican gubernatorial nominee carry lake. he serves in his image as a supposed moderate to land the legitimacy to one of the most extreme pro coup candidates running for office the cycle. the kind of person who says just wildly untrue stuff like this. >> you've called joe biden and
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republicans in congress call them "entitlements." a "ponzi scheme." the women and men i served with in combat, we earned our benefits. just like people earned their social security and medicare benefits. but republicans in congress have a plan to end so-called "entitlements" in just five years. social security, medicare, even veterans benefits. go online and read the republican plan for yourself. >> there are whole bunch of joe biden is fighting to protect social security, medicare and veterans benefits. call joe biden and tell him to keep fighting for our benefits.
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competitive senate seats this year, some of which are within a few points that are going to determine control of the changer. democrats now have a savvy one person sent shunts of holding the senate. the model appears to show democrats could pick up as many as seven seats. that would be a winning the lottery kind of night. this isn't a year where even just six months ago, it sure looked like democrats were screwed. no help. but, now they have a shot. what would it look like to have a majority of democratic senators who could, for instance, override the filibuster? move on popular legislative priorities like guaranteeing the right to an abortion? what possibilities either of democrats black history in the midterm elections? joining me now is senator bernie sanders, independent from vermont, chair of the
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senate democratic outreach committee. senator, first, let me take your temperature on how you think things are looking for retaining control of the senate, these tough contested races in an environment that historically has been very difficult for the party that controls the white house. >> well, i would say things are better than they were a few months ago. but as you indicated, there are many seats out there that are within the margin of error. we don't know how these things will end up. but to my mind, chris, to answer the question, if democrats are gonna do well in 2022, in my view, they've gotta stand up very firmly for working families. make it clear that we are seeing unprecedented levels of corporate greed, unprecedented levels of concentration of ownership in this country. all the while, working families are struggling, in many
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instances seeing a decline in their standard of living. i think now is the time. if you want to win an election, to say, you know what? among the side of the vast majority of americans. black, white, latino, i'm prepared to take on greedy, powerful corporate interests who are enjoying record-breaking profits. while americans can't afford to send their kids to college and are working for starvation wages. that's in my mind. that's how you go forward and when. >> one of the big accomplishments of the unified democratic governance was the announcement of the presidents cancellation, $10,000 of student debt, 20,000 for those with -- you can chart a clear trajectory from your presidential campaign, which championed that issue along with elizabeth warren, to actually happening. there's a lot of back and forth. is this gonna cause a backlash? are people gonna be resentful because i had to pay milan's? what is your sense of the outcome of this?
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in terms of what is meant for peoples lives, and also what it's meant politically. >> you know, i have the radical idea that good policy is good politics. and it is good policy to cancel student debt in this country. i cannot tell you, chris, how many young and middle aged people i have talked to who have hesitated having children, can't afford to buy a house, whose lives are in economic trouble because they're paying off these huge student that's. what biden did was the right thing. i would've gone further. it's what the people want. i'm not gonna tell you it's 100 percent popular, but it's what the people want. and if you do it the people want and not what the corporate world wants, but billionaire campaign contributors one, you win elections. if you raise the minimum wage to a living wage, you win elections. if you expand medicare to include dental and hearing and vision, which recently and a poll, had only 87% support, you
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win elections. if you give tax breaks to the rich, you probably not gonna win. so my own view is there is an agenda at that, and the cancellation of student debt is one part of it. but we've got to go further and show working families were on their side. >> on the other side of it, ted cruz has been plotting with folks to try to challenge it in court. republican legal challenges are expected to start once the application start rolling out. legal experts say it's possibly the administration's plan could be frozen by a federal judge. what do you think of this plot to try to find someone that is standing to block this in court? >> i think it sounds to me very much what happened with the supreme court ruling on abortion. it turns out that the overwhelming majority of the american people think it is women who have the right to control their own lives. not the republican party. strong majority of the american people think we should cancel student debt. senator cruz and others want to challenge that, i think that's
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gonna hurt them politically. it's the wrong thing to do, and i think it hurts them politically. >> one of the most striking features of the last two years, which been strange in many ways, obviously, coming out of the worst parts of the covid pandemic, the pandemic still with us, inflation high, labor market very tight, it's been this raft of union organizing unlike anything we've really seen. i think it's fair to say, in decades. the union elections won by mid year, you can see that spike there in 2022. it's been about 20 years since we've seen this. what do you think is going on here? >> it ain't hard to tell you, the figure at. workers are working, in many instances, longer hours for lower wages, and with inflation, they're falling further behind. want to know what's going on in the last 49 years? real wages today are lower than they were 49 years ago. despite an increase in
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productivity. almost all of the new incoming wealth is going to the people on top. and what working people are saying, excuse me, i can't afford to buy a house. i can't send my kids to college. and yet, during the pandemic, the billionaire class -- two trillion dollar increase -- we've been involved in many of these trucks. were involved in the railroad situation right now, where you're seeing the most ugly type of corporate greed imaginable. major railroads made 12 billion in profits last year. the last six years, they laid off a third of their workforce, and when workers got sick and have to stay home, they are in a position to lose their jobs. so what you're seeing right now are workers saying, enough is enough. you guys on top, you can't have it all. we need an economy that works for all of us. unions or one vehicle that help people get decent wages and working conditions. >> i have to say, as someone
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who covers this kind of stuff, and kim is news to me the railroad workers don't get sick days. i think it came as news to the president of the united states. hopefully that's gonna change. we'll see if we can ratify this new contract that appears to be one of the changes. senator bernie sanders, thank you very much. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. right now. good>> good evening, chris. sickness, maternal daily, all the things we should have. protections, time. >> it's amazing how rare they are in american life, but i do think actually the last two years with the kind of -- the unionization, change is happening all kinds of places. you're seeing more of that. >> yeah, attitude toward labor has changed a lot even in this decade. and that is something to give us hope. thanks, chris, i'd always. and thank you at home for being here. one of trump's loudest offenses following the search of his florida beach club last month has been a pounding declaration that he