similar bill to protect elections, it will be reviewed by -- the committee next tuesday and we will be watching you. and on that note, it is been an hour. i wish you all a very, very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks that nbc news, thank you for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. >> the fraud and deception used by mr. trump in the trump organization for their own financial benefit is astounding. >> the massive trump fraud suit. >> falsifying business records issuing false financial statements. insurance fraud. >> tonight, the evidence gathered against the disgraced ex president and his company. the legal jeopardy for trump and his oldest kids. and what prompted the investigation in the first place. >> the president or his company ever inflate assets or revenue? >> yes.

>> trump's former lawyer and fixer joins me live onset. >> there cannot be different rules for different people in this country or this state. former presidents are no different. >> senator elizabeth warren on the depth of the fraud and former u.s. attorney harry lippman on the possible charges facing the trump family and their business. plus, breaking news about trump stash of classified documents, when all in starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. today new york attorney general letitia james filed a lawsuit, alleging what was already obvious to anyone who has ever paid attention. donald trump is a crook. in a more than 200 page filing, james accuses the ex president and his oldest children, don junior, eric and ivanka. his companies and some of his top executives of a long-standing, widespread scheme to commit fraud. inflating the value of his properties in order to get more

favorable deals from banks. here's how ag james put it in her groundbreaking announcement. >> they violated several state criminal laws. including, falsifying business records. issuing false financial statements. insurance fraud. and engaging in a conspiracy to commit each of these state law violations. we believe the conduct alleged in this action also violates federal criminal law. some of the common tactics that they used include representing that mr. trump had cash on hand that he did not have. ignoring critical restrictions that would significantly impact property values when setting valuations. changing the methodology used to value properties from year to year, without reason or notice. and using vastly different

methods to value different properties even in the same here. received a series of bank ordered appraisals for the commercial property at 40 wall street. in new york city that calculated the value of the property at $200 million as of august 2010. and 200 and $20 million as of november 2012. yet in his 2011 statement, mr. trump listed 40 wall street with a value of $524 million. which increased to $530 million over the next few years. more than twice the value calculated by the professionals. even more agree just, the 500 million dollar plus evaluation was attributed to information from the appraiser who valued the building at just over $200

million. the pattern of fraud and deception used by mr. trump and the trump organization for their own financial benefit is astounding. inflating the values of assets by whatever means necessary. to increase mr. trump's purported net worth. >> letitia james accused the ex president of quote, staggering fraud, filing a lawsuit against him, to his children for $50 million. comes attorney denied any wrongdoing on behalf of her client. for this alleged fraud. it has essentially been hiding in plain sight for years. accusations of shady business tactics of dogged trump since well before he saw political office. when 30 years ago. 1990, one spy magazine published an exposé on trump's financial scheming, including at this, publicly inflating the value of his properties.

so today's revelations do not really come as a surprise to anyone. new york attorney generals office just had the time, resources, where is all determination not to mention subpoena power to spend three years pouring over documents, interviewing more than 60 witnesses to try to prove what much of the country basically already felt to be true. >> over the course of our investigation we found that mr. trump, his children trump organization, created and used more than 200 false and misleading asset valuations on the statement of financial condition over the ten-year period. >> typically when trump is accused of wrongdoing, he has a patsy lined up. the ex president hasn't uncanny ability to walk right up to the line of personal incrimination without actually crossing it himself. today though, the new york attorney general said that was not the case here. that trump was directly involved in the scheme to

inflate his net worth. >> mr. trump and mr. weisselberg would need to review and approve the final statement every year. mr. trump made known through allen weisselberg that he wanted his net worth reflected on the statements to increase. a desire that mr. weisselberg and others carried out year after year. in their fraudulent preparation of statements. >> james also went out of her way to mention the investigation was predicated on congressional testimony from trump's one-time lawyer michael cohen. >> i will remind everyone that this investigation only started after michael cohen, the former lawyer testified before congress and shed light on this misconduct. >> you might recall that cohen disclosed trump's financial dealings to congress under questioning from democrats on the house oversight committee. >> did the president or his

company ever inflate assets or revenues? >> yes. >> did the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company? >> yes. >> who else knows that the president did this? >> allen weisselberg, ron liebermann and matthew calamari. >> where would the committee find more information on this? do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax returns in order to compare them? >> yes, you would find at the trump work. >> michael cohen will join me onset right here in just a moment to discuss what he witnessed in the trump organization. you might have heard there, he mentioned a guy named allen weisselberg, that is the longtime chief financial officer of the trump org. you might remember that just last month, that individual that you see there pleaded guilty to financial fraud. as part of a separate investigation by the manhattan district attorney office. that same office issued a statement today, announcing its investigation into the trump organization's ongoing. new york attorney general james

also said that she is sharing information with the irs and southern district of new york, which is where federal prosecutors could conceivably bring criminal charges if deemed appropriate. to be very clear, even though this is a civil investigation. filing a civil lawsuit it is still a serious threat for the trump organization as an entity. because james is seeking to bar the trump family from servant corporate leadership and doing business in new york. to ban the family and the trump org from buying real estate in new york or taking up a loan for five years. that is in addition to requesting an independent monitor to oversee the trump organization's finances. at a demand of a quarter of a billion dollars in financial restitution. all told, that would likely be the death for the existing trump organs we know it. right, now the trump's family dealing with the various legal and financial structures is firmly in the new york state governments crosshairs. for its alleged misdeeds. that is before even discussing

the possibility of criminal charges which are absolutely still on the table based on what we know. michael cohen was donald trump's attorney for years, as you saw there, his testimony before the house oversight committee led directly to today's lawsuit. he is the host of the podcast revenge, which is out next month. good to have you here. >> good to be here. >> this evening to tish james, the scope of these fraudulent practices, what was your reaction to that? >> it was interesting, because like everybody else i was watching. i had no idea what general was going to say. so when she mentioned my name, i was obviously quite elated to be honest. because i am finally getting the recognition for what i've been saying on the mountain tops yelling for three and a half for years, which is that the trump organization is a criminal enterprise and that i got thrown under the bus by dear old donald simply as you stated in your intro, somebody

has to always fall on the sword for him. right now looks like it will probably be one or both of his kids, possibly himself as well. the one question i do want to make chris is what tissue said was not that it is a 250 million dollar request, that is the baseline. and i have been known to also now state that i believe the number will be at least 2 to 3 times, at least 2 to 3 times the penalty for >> you're saying for in terms of what she is seeking for restitution. she's gonna have the opportunity to go through the lab and civilizations. so when they finally do, they realize the extent of the irs issues, the usage of these personal financial statements so on. each one of those carries a responsibility and in this case a financial responsibility and i believe it will be somewhere in the ballpark of about 750 million.

>> the magic of real estate development is the use of leverage and the use of the equity that you have in a structure. in a property to get bank loans. as the value rises, if you are using leverage. you could just make a ton of money right? it was a little bit, in the acid value rises. you paid off in all of the sudden you've created all of this money. >> non taxable money by the way. >> particularly in the realm of commercial real estate these developments. >> absolutely. >> it's mind-boggling. you are just creating tons of profits out of thin air by systematically lying about how mature buildings are worth. >> let's just call it phantom net worth. because that's really what it was. he used the system in order to duke the system. but the way that he did it is the part that tissue james was so angered about. which is to make allegations

for example about his home, the apartment here on fifth avenue, 33,000 square feet. and there was a number they claimed, price per square foot. that has not only never been even in the realm of the building, it's never even been achieved in the entire city of new york. regardless of the sky arises that are going up here at the most expensive price per square foot ever seen in the country. but his exceeds it, by 2 to 3 times. >> it's so flagrant. i want to play this clip, it's a great example and it's also just black and white. like we know, you can go and take a tape measure of the apartment. if you live at the square footage. >> why, why do you need to take a tape measure. we had built the apartment. he's the developer. and the owner. my point being, this is an easy thing, this is a noble fact in the world to live out so fragrantly. take a listen to how she walked through exactly this. take a look. >> mr. trump represented his apartment spanned more than 30,000 square feet.

which was the basis for valuing the apartment. and in reality, the apartment had an area of less than 11,000 square feet. >> something that mr. trump was well aware of. and based on the inflated square footage, the value of the apartment in 2015, in 2016, was $327 million. >> to the state, no apartment in new york city has ever sold for that amount. tripling the size of the apartment for purposes of the valuation was intentional. and deliberate fraud. not an honest mistake. >> my question is, why doesn't anyone, why were you guys when you were there able to get away with this? >> let me be very clear, donald would call a sudden and he would say, i want to be higher on the force list. so, what i need to do is, i am

not worth six billion. i'm with seven. and then seven would become, i am worth eight. in fact, i'm really were ten. so this guy added four billion dollars of net worth in a matter of 8 to 10 seconds. our job, what we were tasked with was to take the assets that existed in the previous years, personal financial statement, come up with a way to get as close to that $10 million as possible. so there is a target you are just there ratcheting it up. we are backing into a number. but, one of the things that tish james puts into her indictment, to her papers, which is very different and is actually worse than even this as an example, you have by the way mar-a-lago, everywhere. >> at least as alleged. every single asset is overinflated. but the part by far the most egregious, is when donald was subpoenaed to provide documents

that do with his taxes. remember that's after donald's filed objections to the subpoena. it went to court, he lost. it went to the public court, he lost. went to the supreme court, he lost. and they ultimately gave a series of documents. that was supposedly all the documents. this is in tish james's papers. when the fbi raided mar-a-lago, what ended up happening is they found documents that would have been responsive to the subpoena. so therefore, on top of everything, this is added obstruction of justice is yet another clean. in fact, there is more claims for him then he has hair on his head. >> there's a question here about why this persisted for so long. to your point about the tax documents, it does seem she talked about before in the irs the obvious no no is to inflate for bank lenders and insurance

purposes and deflate from tax which is what you said. like when it's time to pay taxes, the property is worth. another >> when you get calls that black and, why the irs does not look that favorably on. it seems to be another issue for him here. to the extent she's referring this to the irs. they have this document. >> thank, fraud wire fraud. they throw in money laundering. you have misrepresentation. the whole plethora of crimes. >> can i ask you a question you might not be able to answer, how common is this new york real estate? how much is this a donald trump said. >> i don't know, i was with trump a little over a decade for the private practice. i don't know. but it's not common. i know randi relive state developers with a lot of money. legitimate a lot of.

not one of the values that we're trying to, floors and warm buildings with more amenities than trump and his department. not one of them is claiming that the unit is worth -- in fact it was probably 50. >> how close does it have to get. i guess the question i have here is, i have watched this and have been covering this. came down the escalator. this kind of this crazy thing with him where the fraud is fragment. the going over the line. yet, seems to have gotten away with it. now it seems like we are in a different space. doesn't have the power of the presidency anymore. has got a smaller circle around him. in a legal perilous so acute. what is your -- the reason that we are where we are and again i think are

creatures and fearless in this absolutely fantastic attorney general. when she complemented me for being the start of it. i testified for over 400 plus hours between seven different congressional committees, the attorney general, the district attorney and so on. it is the documentation which nobody has ever had before. and he never would've given him that ultimately sparked this and sent this into the investigation that is going to terminate the trump organization. donald, junior, ivanka, eric, weisselberg and the rest of them. it's going to put an end to the entire company. >> you think that? >> i believe so. michael cohen, who's seen from the inside and the outside, good to have you, thank you so much for making the time. >> pleasure, appreciate it. >> to the nearest attorney general made it clear that donald trump has been casually engaging in fraud for years. >> donald trump falsely

inflated his net worth by billions of dollars, to unjustly enrich himself. and to cheat the system. and thereby cheating all of us. >> how did you get away with it? and just how many other which people are getting richer that way to. senator elizabeth warren joins me on that next. me on that next.

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of their home. or to send a kid to college. and if they did, the government was throw the book at them. why should this be any different? it is a tale of two justice systems. one for every day working people and one for the elite. the rich and powerful. >> the trump lawsuit brought by new york attorney general letitia james against the ex president and his adult children on junior erica nevada is the story of one flagrantly corrupt man and family, donald trump. and as attorney general james said, it is also the story of two systems of justice. the fraud trump is accused of was supposedly happening out in the open four years. makes you wonder about the level of accountability at the highest echelons of corporate america and what people can get away with when they are not under scrutiny. someone who has been hammering this for years massachusetts dumber --

senator warren. talking with the need for the law to take financial crimes and fraud seriously. senator elizabeth warren was a member of the finance committee joins us now. great to have you sir. thinking of you, as i was watching that today, because your start was in bankruptcy law. elecare two systems. just an average working day person, what bankruptcy looked like. if you are a big corporation trying to get rid of your pension screw your labor union. this does seem like a perfect example of this kind of twin systems of justice. particularly around finance and financial crimes. >> this is why i have such great respect for attorney general james. she is someone who just said no. the law applies equally to everyone. no one is above the law. including former presidents of the united states. and i just have a lot of respect for that. i think that is the right way to handle this. >> there was some other news

today i wanted to get your reaction to before we turn to the big fed announcement today. that is news that ginni thomas, the wife of course of clarence thomas. we'll actually be meeting with the january six committee. they have agreed to a interview. i know you said before, including on this program that clarence thomas should recuse himself from any supreme court cases having to do a january six because of ginni thomas's involvement. are you happy to see that she will be talking to the committee? >> of course i am. but i really have to reiterate the rest of it. we not only is it the case that clarence thomas should be recusing himself, this is just more evidence of why it is that we need ethics rules that are the law and that apply to the united states supreme court. conflicts of interest, having a family member that might be engaged in a matter before the court. we need rules in place so that it is not up to the justice himself, himself or herself to

decide whether or not to say i will step back. but we've got a set of rules that apply to everyone. that is true in the lower courts in the federal system. but the supreme court is the one place where they get to make the rules for themselves. i think it is wrong, we need legislation to put a stop to it. >> so that folks if they don't know. it's a judicial code of conduct binding on lower court judges. but the supreme court, if your own son or daughter say we're arguing the case, you would not have to recuse yourself, you would think public pressure would make you do it, but right, now you could just go ahead and listen to the case. >> that's exactly right. or if you have financial interest or you had a spouse that had a financial interest or if you had taken free vacations from somebody who had business in front of the court. all of it. and right now, the rule is hey, each of the nine justices it's up to you to decide. when to step back and went to

go forward. i just think that is wrong. i think it's wrong across the board. we need a clear set of rules in place. and a set of rules that will be enforceable regardless of the issue. regardless of who is engaged in conflict. just to say no. we are not going to do this. that is what i want to do, that is what i've got a bill to do. and i want to push that forward. >> does the monthly sum of this will come before the court sooner or later as they litigate it. i want to turn to the federal reserve announcement today from chair jay powell. you've been very critical of powell. powell announcing today along with the rest of the fed another interest rate hike. 75 basis points. that is 0.7 5%. this is what the chart looks like of what is called the federal funds target rate. which has been going up and up. you see the little blip there at the bottom, going almost straight up. >> they say look, inflation is the highest it's been in 40 years. not going, down assumptions are

beginning to be invested in the economy. we will end up having a harder time getting it under control. we have to get this under control now. no matter what it takes, what he said that? >> look, do not treat this as well they've done this before. that's business is usual. we have to stop and take a deep breath. these are extraordinary rate increases. there have been three of them now back to back. with this cumulative effect. my concern here is that the fed just has one tool in its tool box. it is the interest rate tool and it will certainly have some impact on inflation no one denies it but there are other factors that are driving inflation. covid continues to be a problem all around the world shutting down economies at different points. we continue to have supply chain kinks. the war in ukraine, we have certainly watched energy prices

begin to come down. we also have a problem ukraine is not producing the food and putting that into the international supply. and we still have companies that are engaging in enormous price gouging. so, i've asked chair powell in open hearings, and your very increases have any influence on us. his answer is no. can't do anything about them. so, what is going on here is that powell is using the one tool he has, which also will have the effect of driving up unemployment across the country. estimates on this latest one is that it's somewhere around 1 million jobs that could be lost from this. and that is people, that hurts. i get it, high prices are a problem. we need to deal with those high prices. but we deal stem by attacks on covid, it attacking the supply chain problems. we deal with them by pushing on

corporations and calling them out for price gouging and even prosecuting them if they break the law. but not by continuing to use extreme increases in interest rates that are going to put people out of work. we have to remember, high prices yes, very painful but you know what is more painful than high prices and low unemployment? it is high prices and high unemployment. that is where i am afraid we are headed. this is the big -- this off landing is what everybody wants, right? if inflation comes down, whether through a mix of interest rate hikes, and the kings working out of the system, goes from being stable, -- remains robust, all is good in the world. the never certain areas stagflation scenario, they hike and hike, and we also get massive unemployment, and the prices they elevated. i share your fear about that, as well. senator elizabeth warren, thank you very much.

>> thank you. >> still ahead, the weird thing that happens whenever donald trump's around numbers. >> 401(k) s are up 30, 40 the, in some cases, much higher than that, percent. they have 90, 92, 93%. they have massive tariffs on us, 50%. in one case, 100 percent. in some cases, more than test. we did not coordinate -- that exact bit, but how trump's pathological need to inflate every single thing could lead to the end of his real estate business, with the bonus clip of an old thing, one thing to episode to demonstrate. that's next. that's next.

>> as we've said allegations against trump or not as surprising, given what we've all seen of his behavior over the years. especially when it comes to inflating numbers. there is something he does, almost pathologically we've documented here, time and again, when he was in office. like that time he struck a big arms deal with saudi arabia, and the thing just kept getting bigger and bigger, every time he mentioned it. >> now the original deal was supposedly going to create 40,000 jobs, then trump made it bigger. >> i work very hard to get the order for the militaries, 100 and $10 million. i believe it's the largest order ever made. it's 450,000 jobs. >> okay. two things here. the 110 million dollar number itself, we know to be an exaggeration. but 450,000 jobs. now, that's a lot of jobs. although, i think it might

sound a little better if you rounded up a bit. >> they have a tremendous order, 110 billion dollars. every country in the world wanted a piece of. that 500,000 jobs. >> 500,000 jobs! we're up to 500,000! nothing's changed about the deal of course, but in two days, we somehow went up 50,000 more jobs. >> we have 400 and $50 million worth of things ordered from the very rich country, saudi arabia. 600,000 jobs, maybe more than the. >> 600, 000, do i hear 600,000? and now, it's a 450 billion dollar deal. every time the sky talks, a number goes up! >> this is equipment and various things ordered from saudi arabia. 450 billion dollars, i think it's over 1 million jobs. >> this is kind of not even funny anymore. >> i think that's over 1 million jobs. 1 million, to over 1 million jobs. >> man, we missed thing one,

thing to around these parts. we'll post that segment around our facebook and twitter. it's that exact climate exhibit -- numbers exaggeration can get a guy into legal trouble, if he does it on official documents. the attorney generals office is dealt with trump before. when we return, the amazing story of the fraudulent trump foundation. don't go away. don't go away. i wish that shaq was my real life big brother. what's up, little bro? turns out, some wishes do come true. and it turns out the general is a quality insurance company that's been saving people money for nearly 60 years. for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage- go with the general. don trump is facing a lawsuit

from laetitia james, accusing the ex president and his company, and members of his family, of widespread fraud. this is actually the second time that the new york attorney general has moved to take down a trump institution. back in early 2016, then candidate donald trump, skipped a fox news republican primary debate, amidst his feud with meghan kelly. he was angry about her questions on his disparaging comments about women, among other things from a previous debate trump -- hosting a rally in iowa, that he billed as he fund-raiser for veterans who can't get behind that? according to trump, it was highly successful, raising millions of dollars. >> we just cracked -- the sign was given -- we just cracked $6 million, right? 6 million! [applause] >> and we have, outside, a list of organizations and folks are gonna be getting this money. we're gonna divide it up and

they're getting a lot of money. everyone's gonna get a lot of money. >> over the following few, days trump to deliver some of that money to various veterans organizations, in the form of giant checks. as you can see, in the upper left hand corner of those checks, this was funneled through the donald trump foundation, his personal charity. but, soon, it became apparent that the donations were lagging. definitely not adding up to $6 million. so, washington post reporter followed up with the trump campaign to find out what happened to all that money. more than a month later, about half of the money, roughly $3 million, had been donated to veterans charities. that was according to a summary released by the trump campaign in response to inquiries from the washington post. it seem like donald trump had cheated veterans out of millions of dollars, $3 million. so adairville kept -- investigating. it's a nearly three more months. a lot of public pressure from him and others in the media for trump to confirm that all the money had finally been given

up. >> the monies of incent. i want to keep it private. if we could, i wanted to keep it private. i don't think it's anybody's business if i want to send money to the vets. i will say, the press should be a share and of themselves. on behalf of the vets, the press should be ashamed. they're calling me, and they are furious, because i sent people checks of a lot of money, we're gonna give you the names right now, which is what you want. and instead of being, like, thank you, mr. trump, or trump did a good job, everyone saying, who got it, who got it? and you make me look very bad. i have never received such bad publicity for such a good job. >> that was just beginning for david ferron hole to continue investigating the charity organization -- over the next several months, he revealed a slew of apparent abuses by the trump foundation. the details were crazy. he found the don trump used money donated to buy himself a

12,000 dollar football helmet, signed by store quarterback, tim tebow. in 2007, trump spent $20,000 on a six foot tall portrait of himself that he hung in his result. he also use more than a quarter of 1 million dollars from his charitable foundation to settle his own legal problems. including $100,000 for an unpaid fine to the town of palm beach, florida, resulting from a dispute over the height of a flagpole. in fact, the foundations largest ever gift, was more than $260, 000, you serena vista fountain outside of the windows of trump's plaza hotel. and the smallest came back in 1989 when trump uses charities money to pay the -- this is serious -- the seven dollar registration fee for his then 11 year old son, don jr. to, join the boy scouts. now, these abuses were all basically hiding in plain sight, but dave unfair and paul expose them. he won a pulitzer prize for his work and in september of 2016,

the announcement came from the attorney generals office, they were investigating the trump foundation. of course, donald trump was elected president that november and one month before his inauguration, he announced that he would dissolve the foundation. the new york attorney general block that from happening, while the investigation is ongoing. and in june of 2018, the new york attorney general, barbara underwood, finally put the trump foundation out of his misery. she filed a civil suit alleging widespread misuse of resources and shut the charity down. so, we've seen this before. it was carried out while laetitia james predecessors, but the very same office. while criminal charges did not materialize then, it could now. it could now ny that's been saving people money for nearly 60 years. i gotta go, ah. for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage, go with the general.

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our internet isn't ideal... my dad made the brilliant move to get us t-mobile home internet. oh... but everybody's online during the day so we lose speeds. we've become... ...nocturnal. well... i'm up. c'mon kids. this. sucks. well if you just switch maybe you don't have to be vampires. whoa... okay, yikes. oh sorry, i wasn't thinking. we don't really use the v word. that's kind of insensitive. we prefer day-adjacent. it is been a rough day on the i'll go man-pire.

legal front for donald trump, because in another blow, tonight, there's breaking news on the investigation into the classified documents that come stash of his retirement home in mar-a-lago. a federal appeals court just before i went to air just ruled in favor -- putting impartial stay on the order from trump appointed

judge that -- would've -- in their ongoing criminal investigation. harry litman is a former u.s. attorney for the western instructive -- also served as deputy assistant -- and he joins me now. harry, this ruling just came in for three judge panel. we should say, two of them, those judges appointed by donald trump. all three finding for the government -- give us a rundown of what they said. >> couldn't be more definitive. there is a matter of mac tone to it -- this is so obvious. it's like working from a nightmare. people who have looked at these -- -- and people -- it's a procuring by the way, the three judges decided to

show their unity. -- and that you set it down and rebuke everything she said. -- you cannot discern -- grievance irreparable injury -- like anyone else, could she had given special treatment. forget about it. one after the other. very methodical, undramatic but when you take a step back and see how comprehensive it is, it just completely rebukes everything she did. it's some restoration of faith after a truly heart stopping the bad set of opinions from her. but they get, by the, way --

they now -- -- . >> near unanimous sense among people there watching -- who really wild, right? and -- we've now seen back-to-back days in which other judges brought in to do with the -- -- what your formative argument that you possess? we're not gonna make, it will, what he wanted to do, guys? today, a similar thing -- who >> not a liberal versus conservative, just judging one-on-one and she had phone to and it's very straightforward, set him up, one proposition

after another. >> i want to just read one point that they made that you mentioned about this idea that the extraordinary-ness of the state here, in order to get the, stay -- -- and every dependent -- and he's not been in that, but everybody being investigated would love for a judge to find that there is irreparable harm and being investigated. here they say, no doubt the threat across cushion can weigh heavily on the mind of someone under investigation. -- every potential -- and -- for the crimes they think might have done. >> when she said otherwise she

made a big point -- as a former president and people really voted that because no such clear unequal justice. they're quote there, this gave a regular case. -- they could've slapped around more harshly, but they didn't need to, if it was a -- to the former president. >> the question now is where this goes. my understanding is that these are not, they can't get in -- because it's just a, so it's a procedure -- to preserve -- wonder if you will think they're pursue that >> it's a question of delay because it's not a fruitful idea. right now, the linebackers are frozen. unless the supreme court would reach down and do -- the changes come.

i don't expect that to happen. i think we're really matters now, this was -- give us a stay, so we can go forward on this important aspects. there is the whole, huge thousand-plus documents that are no -- by no possible conception, his. will they no appeal -- or will they say -- unnecessary legally wrong opinion -- they did it so quickly. they knew there was -- and so this all works even if you. days >> in the 30 seconds i have left, the threat to the trump -- issue today, how cute is?

>> it's not him in prison, it's everything but. it's a trump branch matters mightily. 200 pages, comprehensive. i don't think they can go to trial. this is the worst days ever had, legally. >> harry lippman, as always, a pleasure. thank you always, a pleasure thank yo good evening, chris. it is a stunning series of developmentes for donald trump and legal he woulds. >> the quite a day. >> as evidence of that, the fact we're saying review with the french. >> i said it wrong. >> do you find human to human here, just asking you a question -- >> not like there are cameras on. >> but the notion of having that much legal weight bearing down on meat gives me like a viscera stomach pain. and just wild to me to just live your life in this way. >> obviously,