word, with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> i'm so glad you had senate candidate cheri beasley because it is so important. to control the senate is so important. we're gonna have senator maggie hassan on. she is running against a very strange republican candidate in new hampshire. katie hobbs will join us. the candidate for governor in arizona, where it's possible, if she doesn't win, arizona might never again have a fair election. the republican candidate for governor, for secretary of state, for attorney general, all say donald trump won the last presidential election. >> i think it's important to underscore that in many cases women are the last frontier between the country and a precipice of election denialism. these are not just republican

candidates. don bolduc, kari lake, these people are a new strain of conservative, and it gives conservativism a bad name, but this is really, they are the gatekeepers between democracy and chaos in a lot of respects, so paying attention to these candidates and listening to what the democrats have to say about the races is critical, with just 27 days to go. >> we really have to have as many candidates on as we can. >> can't wait to see it. >> thanks alex. i want to begin tonight with a pledge to you, the audience of this program, this is a serious pledge, that i will fully present and analyze any evidence that emerges to indicate that donald j trump might not be guilty of obstruction of justice and violating the espionage act. but so far, no such evidence has emerged in any way. donald trump's lawyers have offered no hint of a defense to the potential criminal charges of violating the espionage act.

and in the breaking news of the night, the evidence has taken a turn that could be what a criminal jury finds to be proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that donald trump committed those crimes. there is an informer inside donald trump's home, in florida. that is the breaking news. reported tonight in the washington post under the headline, trump worker told fbi about moving mar-a-lago boxes on ex presidents orders. in each one of the justice department legally legal filings in the appropriate titled case of donald j crump versus the united states of america, the department has

repeatedly used a phrase that is repeated that appeared in last night's filing. the fbi uncovered evidence. there are two key points in the story, where the justice department leans very heavily on some variation of that phrase, every single time. the justice department lays out the chronology of their investigation in a legal filing in court. they always say that after donald trump returned 15 boxes of documents to the government, one year after he left the presidency, the fbi somehow knew that there were still more government documents in donald trump's possession. and last night's filing the solicitor general put it this way.

the fbi developed evidence that additional boxes remaining at trump's residence at the mar-a-lago club in palm beach florida were also likely to contain classified information. that is such a loaded sentence. the fbi developed evidence that donald trump had more boxes of classified documents. how do they do? that how did the fbi find that evidence? how did the fbi find that out? and then, in every chronology prosecutors have presented, they always describe, fbi agents and a prosecutor going to florida on june 3rd to personally take custody of the remaining documents in don trump's possession. and when they take those documents, that's the day when trump lawyer christina bob was reportedly talked into signing a certification that it was completely false, a

certification saying the documents being handed over on june 3rd where the very last government documents in donald trump's possession. donald trump had been hit with a subpoena for those documents by the government. so he had to turn over all of the remaining documents on that day because defying the subpoena would be a crime in and of itself. so the fbi agents and the prosecutor and on trump's home on june 3rd took that small collection of documents that they were handed that day and they took that written statement, made under oath, that there was absolutely nothing left in donald trump's home, and then the next line in the government telling of the story is always a version of what the source the solicitor general wrote in last night's filing to a supreme court. quote, the fbi uncovered evidence that the response to

the grand jury subpoenas incomplete, that additional classified documents likely remained at mar-a-lago, and that efforts had likely been undertaken to obstruct the investigation. every version of that sentence, that prosecutors have written in their court filings, has always been the most loaded sentence in their filings. the fbi uncovered evidence. the fbi uncovered evidence that donald trump didn't hand over all the documents, subject to the subpoena on june 3rd. donald trump withheld government documents again? how did the fbi uncover that evidence? and how does that evidence show that it wasn't just a mistake that donald trump didn't hand over all the documents? but it was actually, quote, undertaken to obstruct the investigation? how do the fbi find that out? now we know. tonight we know. now we know that there is a

witness on the verge of becoming the most famous witness in the world, and the most important witness to testify against former president of the united states, a witness who might be able to deliver proof beyond a reasonable doubt to a criminal jury of crimes committed by donald trump. washington post is reporting tonight a trump employee has told federal agents about moving boxes of documents at mar-a-lago at the specific direction of the former president, according to people familiar with the investigation. it gets worse. when did donald trump tell the trump employee to move the boxes? the washington post is reporting that donald trump told the trump employee to move the boxes after donald trump received a subpoena from the federal government for those boxes. the fact the donald trump

ordered the movement of those boxes after he received a subpoena could be proof beyond a reasonable doubt of donald trump's intention to commit obstruction of justice. it gets worse. the washington post is reporting that there are multiple witnesses, multiple witness accounts, about donald trump ordering the boxes moved after receiving the subpoena in may. the people familiar with the investigations that agents have gathered witness accounts indicating that, after trump advisers received a subpoena in may for any classified documents remained at mar-a-lago, trump told people to move is boxes to his residents at the property. and it gets worse. it's all on video. that description of events was corroborated by the security

camera footage, which showed people moving the boxes. after the fbi and federal prosecutor visited trump residents on june 3rd, armed with a subpoena and, and obtain those documents, they went back to washington and sent another subpoena to donald trump demanding the security camera video recordings from his residence. those video recordings are now clearly the evidentiary equivalent of the audio recordings made in the oval office by president richard nixon while president nixon was ordering crimes to be committed by his staff. those audio recordings of nixon, when obtained, under subpoena, forced the republican president to resign the presidency before he would have been impeached in the house of representatives and removed from office by the united states senate. they were the proverbial

smoking gun and the evidence against republican president richard nixon. at the time president nixon could have legally destroyed those audiotapes before they were subject to a subpoena. and probably then survived that investigation. similarly, donald trump could have destroyed the security video recordings at his florida residence before they were subject to the subpoena. everything donald trump did with those government documents, fully classified documents, that he brought to florida, was profoundly, deeply, and relentlessly stupid. and the evidence increasingly indicates that it was probably criminal. everything donald trump has said publicly about the case has been deeply stupid and some of it has been self incriminating, including it around the last week when don trump admitted that he was knowingly in possession of the documents and then said that he

kept the material, quote, because it's mine. that of course is evidence of the criminal intent to keep those documents for the rest of his life. in tonight's reporting in the washington post, an unnamed person who worked for donald trump quotes what donald trump said while the documents were under subpoena. they are my documents, trump said, according to an aide who spoke to him. it the fbi, no doubt knows who that aid is and we can expect that aid to some be an under oath witness adding to what could be proof beyond a reasonable doubt the donald trump is guilty of obstruction of justice and violating the espionage act. leading off our discussion tonight is daniel goldman, former house majority counsel, and first impeachment trial

donald trump. he's also a former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york and is now a candidate for congress in new york's tenth congressional district. also with us, paul butler, a professor of law at georgetown university in a former federal prosecutor, and glenn kershner, former federal prosecutor. their nbc legal analyst. it's to this team of former federal prosecutors that we put the evidence tonight. and daniel goldman, as i have said, i will rush to the microphone here on this program and deliver and analyze at length any evidence that

emerges, any evidence that emerges that is helpful in some way to donald trump's criminal defense. so far none of it has emerged, that i'm aware of. what do you see in tonight's reporting by the washington post? >> it's confirmation of what we suspected about the basis for the search warrant, the department of justice got. clearly they received a certification that they had obtained all the documents pursuant to a subpoena from mar-a-lago. but they subsequently had a witness come and testify. interestingly, that witness

initially lied and then after being re-approached by the fbi, came clean to indicate that donald trump intentionally intended to move documents in order to conceal them from the department of justice and failed to comply with the subpoena. that is why we have the bases not only of being in possession of information relevant to the national defense, but also the potential crime of obstruction of justice because he is knowingly and intentionally trying to subvert a grand jury subpoena. so we have a little bit more color now on what led the department of justice to get that search warrant, that ultimately yielded what the washington post reports to be 103 classified documents. this is getting worse and worse for donald trump, as you pointed out, lawrence. all of the information coming out is harmful to him and is helpful to the department of justice's case. as you also pointed, out the more he talks, the worse he makes the situation for

himself. >> i want to go over that part of the report tonight. you just mentioned that this witness changed the story after the first telling of the story. here is the way the washington post reports that. i know in all of your experience as federal prosecutors this is something you have seen before. so i just want to deliver this. now the employee, who is working at mar-a-lago is cooperating with justice department and has been interviewed multiple times by federal agents according to the people familiar with the situation who declined to identify the worker. in the first interview, these people said, the witness denied handling sensitive documents or the boxes that might contain such documents. as they gathered evidence agents decided to re-interview the witness and the witnesses story changed dramatically. these people said. in the second p interview the witness described moving boxes at trump's request. paul butler, what do you make of that sequence in the testimony? >> there is likely not just one witness. it's probably people who moved these hundreds of thousands of documents around. so this one witness would have some credibility issues, so here she could be corroborated by other employees and importantly forensic evidence like the security camera video. the questions that the justice department has for this one witness why did you change your

story? i don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to think that that evidence might also point to donald trump's. >> glenn kirschner, in your experience as a federal prosecutor, when you're dealing with a witness who's on the criminal side of the crime, how uncommon is it for them to tell a story that then changes as they continue their cooperation? >> i can tell you how many times i would receive a new assignment, pick up a new case, and i would start meeting with the witnesses. you know what they would say right out of the box? i didn't see it, i don't know anything about it, can i go home now? and then we would have to work

through the evidence, the information, get to the bottom of why they were denying seeing something that, frankly, we had other evidence that they had seen, maybe even participated in. it was entirely usual for witnesses to first tell prosecutors or fbi agents, i don't know anything about this crime. that could be because they are complicit and they are worried about getting themselves in trouble. it could certainly, as my friend paul says, because donald trump was putting pressure on them. they have seen donald trump turn on other witnesses who crossed him in a very public and even dangerous way. why would anybody enthusiastically say, i have information about the crimes of donald crump? >> i want to go to another point in the washington post tonight, inside trump world and

for donald trump. it is within trump's orbit there have been months of dueling accusations and theories about who may be cooperating with the federal government. some of the former presidents closest aides have continued to work with trump even as they have seen fbi agents show up at their houses to question them and serve subpoenas. daniel goldman, in your experience, that kind of atmosphere happens when an investigation is centered on a particular workplace or group of people. what are the kind of dynamic things that develop when everyone in the trump world is suspecting someone else? >> it's the prisoners dilemma, right? it's which one is going to be the first one in to cooperate, and which one is going to resist cooperation because they are afraid of retaliation by donald trump? i will tell you, lawrence, it

is no laughing matter here the donald trump is the target of this investigation. when i lead the impeachment investigation, i received threats because, from don trump supporters. i prosecuted mob offices, violent russian organized criminals, and the most threats, the most fear i ever had was doing the impeachment investigation. so it is real, the threats. you saw what happened with the whistleblower. this is no joke. what probably happened in this case is that that witness was questioned, lied, because he was afraid of donald trump, then the fbi gets the surveillance tapes and they see this individual moving boxes after the subpoena. they then go back to the guy, or woman, and they say, here's a video of you moving the boxes when you said you didn't. so it's time for you to come clean.

that is often how this sort of thing happens, like glenn said. when you have other evidence you presented and there is no choice for that person's but to cooperate. my suspicion is that's what happened here. >> paul butler, talk about the significance of this movement of the boxes ordered by donald trump, taking place after the subpoena arrives and he is saying to them take those boxes out of the storage place where the fbi knows they are and move them to my residents, which, i think, explains why, as part of that search took place on the don trump residents section where they went into his office room and found classified documents in his desk. but the legal significance of donald trump saying, all right, let's start moving those boxes after the subpoena arrives. >> the former president knew that there was a grand jury

subpoena for these documents. if trump, as the post report suggests, directed his employees to move these documents to his private quarters is not only obstruction, it's a potential violation of the espionage act, which criminalizes high highly sensitive rip evidence pertaining to national security. justice department's policies not to prosecute of the evidence is just that the documents were not handled properly. there has to be some plus actor like obstruction or willful concealment, which is exactly what the evidence in the post report suggests. both lynn and daniel know that as a prosecutor sum as an investigative lots of questions but and appoint the evidence forces your hand. merrick garland is getting awfully close to that point with this extremely incriminating new evidence.

>> and glenn, quickly, before we go, you've got donald trump ordering the boxes moved after the subpoena arrives, apparently to more than one person. it's not just going to be one witness who says he told me to do that. we're not gonna just see one person on video moving the boxes based on what we are hearing tonight. and you also have, in the washington post report, a new line, a new quoted line from donald trump, directly to a person quoted by the washington post word on trump says that material belongs to me. what >> lawrence, what i see it washington post reporting taking an aggregate is so far beyond evidence of probable cause, which is the evidence we need to arrest and indict. it is beyond the preponderance of the evidence. it is beyond clear and convincing evidence. i see proof beyond a reasonable doubt. really, the only thing left to do when merrick garland believes the time is right, is to indict this case and presented to 12 jurors, because those are the only people who

can decide whether donald trump's guilty or not guilty we. presenting this evidence to 12 jurors and letting them is the conscience of the community make the decision, i think we lose trust and we lose faith and raise confidence in the institutions of government. >> glenn kirschner, daniel goldman, paul butler, thank you very much for starting our discussion this evening. and coming up, the billion dollar verdict against donald trump's friend and supporter, alex jones, for his poison's lies about murdered children. that's next. oh, davante adams! what's up, man? we need to talk about that lucky jersey. haven't washed it in years. multiple years? i don't see any stains. it's lucky. mmm, i don't see any luck. it's dirty. lucky. dirty. but we just scored a touchdown. crowd: yeah! not we. me. ohhh! touche. you need to deep clean that.

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ordered donald trump's friend and supporter alex jones to pay $965 million to the families of some of the victims of the mass murder at sandy hook elementary school because alex jones spent years poisonously lying about those murdered children and their parents. >> i watch them all. i watch them all. i have seen all the videos. it is one thing to lose a child. it's quite another thing when people take everything about your boy, and your surviving child and your husband and everything you ever did in your life is on the internet and

harassing you. >> it's so hard to go see your seven-year-old child headstone into here that people were desecrating it and urinating on it and threatening to dig it up. i don't know how to articulate what it feels like. but that's where we are. all our abilities to hold on to daniel's memory, to cherish and honor him, has been tarnished with toxic hate and lies. >> joining us now is jim bergen, connecticut attorney with extensive experience in criminal and civil litigation. adjunct professor at the university of connecticut school of law. thank you very much for joining us tonight. this case is governed by connecticut law. given the guidance that the jury had through connecticut law, were you surprised at this verdict? >> actually, not. the volume of money allocated very specifically, lawrence, to

each of those individual complainants, plaintiffs, is following the law precisely. so it is a testament to the judges discipline and the quality of the lawyering. notwithstanding norm patterson 's extraordinary efforts to retain the confidence of his client, he had to abide by the rules. so i believe that it is going to be upheld. i don't think it's a close question. >> so expected to be upheld on appeal, and then that would bring us to the collection stage, which is always a difficult stage in civil litigation, when you win these judgments. collecting the judge the money is another matter. what's the future in this litigation on collecting this judgment from alex jones? >> any bankruptcy judge's licking his or her chops because the powers, especially

when you see today, he still tried to pump money out of his people who believe his crap. so as a consequence, the money he made today is it gonna be available. any money he that came in from the time he knew that he was at risk for losing the substantial amount of money that he doesn't have any more is potentially a fraudulent transfer and the bankruptcy court is going to be very aggressive and he can't do what he did with this judge, where he just defies the judge, doesn't follow the law. in the bankruptcy court it wouldn't surprise me if we're going to see some contempt's, because he even taunted the bankrupts. we can do this for years and tie him. up the other thing that chris matty just mentioned in your last hour, that this may be non

dischargeable in bankruptcy. that is essentially financial suicide. he is going to have this, this is bound to be non dischargeable. i think it qualifies under the law of culpa, then personally he can never attain or acquire as it's because they can be attached because they are non dischargeable in bankruptcy. >> you mentioned chris matthew, the lawyer for some of the families in this case. he was telling alex wagner, this point you are making, which is bankruptcy proceedings, the point is essentially, it will not protect alex jones from this judgment that can be pursued for the rest of his life. >> in fact, you go back to the time when the case was filed and he's still making money then. all that money that he made from that day forward, whatever

he did with that money is potentially something that has to come back. a constructive trust can be imposed on that and the judge, seeing especially the judge is being taunted by him, even on the day of the verdict, no, we'll just tie it up, spend a lot of money, i don't have any money. well, evidence is plain. he controls everything. he alone has all the money, all the power. that's not even in dispute. any place that money went, he is liable. ask >> attorney james bergenn, thank you for your expert guidance tonight. >> glad to be here. >> coming up, what do you do when your senate campaign opponent says don't trump was the real winner of the 2020 presidential election and then a month later says oh no, joe biden won the election? and what do you do in your senate campaign opponent favors a national ban on abortion in all 50 states and then changes his mind and says the question of abortion should of course be left up to the gentleman? that's the term he used. the gentleman of the state legislature. that's who new hampshire democratic senator maggie hassan is running against. senator hassan joins us next.

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election that will determine, among other things, whether joe biden ever appoints another federal judge. if republicans control the senate, they will completely stop the senate confirmation process for federal judges for the next two years.

if the supreme court vacancy opens up, republicans will keep it vacant until there is a republican president, no matter how many years that takes. here is don bolduc, the republican candidate for senate in new hampshire, who wants to help republicans take control of the senate. >> trump won the election, and damn it, i stand by it. >> i want to be definitive on this. the election was not stolen. was there fraud? yes. but elections have consequences. unfortunately president biden's legitimate president of this country. >> the republican candidate for senate in new hampshire is running scared from his own words, as are some other republican senate candidates around the country. dawn bolduc has flip-flopped on the issue of abortion, for saying that he would vote for lid legislation like lindsey

graham's proposal on a national abortion ban for all 50 states and now saying he believes that the final word on abortion were belongs to the gentleman of new hampshire. >> it belongs to the gentleman right here who are state legislators representing you as the best way, i think, as a man, that women get the best voice, at the state level, not at the federal level. and it and it's really senator hassan that doesn't understand this. >> joining us now is new hampshire's democratic senator, maggie hassan, member of the senate finance committee. senator, did you convince him that joe biden won the presidential election? >> well, thanks for having me on, lawrence. look, don bolduc is an election denier.

not only did he spend over a year stoking the big lie and stop after stop around our state, he also says that of 2024 doesn't go for his preferred candidate, he will work to overturn that election and just this week he cast doubt on the 2022 election, suggesting if he loses he may not accept the results. so he is trying to mislead granite state hers about his election denial, but he keeps reinforcing it even as mitch mcconnell and his super pacs are coming into the state with just tens of millions of dollars, $23 million in spending in the last eight weeks in negative ads against me to try to conceal his record from the voters of new hampshire. similarly he is somebody who would vote for a national abortion ban. that's way out of step with where granted stages are and he's trying to conceal that as well. this race is close and we're going to have to push really hard and we need the resources to hold war don bolduc accountable, so people know how extreme he is.

>> as you go forward, i mean this, how do you know what he's gonna say tomorrow about abortion, as one example, since it changes from day today? which position are you running against with him? >> don bolduc does not believe the women should have the fundamental right to make their own health care decisions. his record here is really long. when the dobbs decision was decided he said women should rejoice at that. then as he tried to hide that position, along with his position, he said he would never vote against any anti choice legislation at the national level. now he's trying to hide that position with comments like the ones you just talked about. and of course he's got the whole republican national establishment behind him. by the way, he also wants to end social security, having said recently that since social security has been around since 1935, it's time to change it. so what we need to do is hold

him accountable. his record is really clear. the concern i have in this rates, polls are tight, where in margin error territory here. i won my last race in 2016 by 1017 votes. new hampshire is a very purple state. mcconnell in the national republicans are trying to buy this seat and putting election denier into the united states senate. we can't let that happen. but we do need people to stay engaged with this campaign to get it over the finish line. i hope folks will find out how they can do that by winter maggie hansen. com. >> when you speak to new hampshire voters and they are asking you, what did i get from senator hassan from my last vote six years ago? what do you tell them? >> i tell them i have tried to follow the example of the people loose new hampshire that put aside differences and get things done every day. i have a bipartisan record of

working on things to lower costs such as banning surprise medical bills, bipartisan, and i was one of the lead negotiators on the bias partisan infrastructure bill that will finally get in high-speed internet to every corner of our state. lowering costs, bringing manufacturing back to the 19 states, making sure we have a vibrant economy that can outcompete china and the rest of the world. and i have been recognized for my bipartisan work, which is so consistent with the whole way granite strangers do things, ranked by the looker's center is the most bipartisan senator in the country. so i talked also about the things we still need to work on. lowering any drug costs in particular, making sure costs and childcare more affordable. i also talk about the things that democrats have done together, allowing medicare to negotiate for prescription drug prices, standing up to big pharma in the process, standing up to big oil to help give

people tax cuts to invest in energy efficiency and help with the whole economy to help it pivot toward a clean energy future. those are the things we have achieved but we need to do more. >> new hampshire senator maggie hassan, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thanks so much for having me. take care, and be safe. >> coming up, republicans have, in effect, pledged to never again run a fair election in arizona if they win their campaigns for governor, secretary of state, an attorney general. arizona's democratic candidate for governor, katie hobbs, will join us next.

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arizona, a state where democracy itself is on the ballot. the republican candidates for governor, senate, secretary of state, and attorney general in arizona have all denied the results of the 2020 election. that includes donald trump's candidate for governor, former local fox host, lake, who has said that she would not have certified joe biden's election in 2020. she supports arizona's abortion ban. arizona secretary of state katie hobbs was democratic candidate for governor has refused to debate kari lake because of the circus atmosphere and her embrace of lakes embrace of conspiracy theories. she disrupted the front row demanding that katie hobbs come out and debater. katie hobbs to not do. that eventually kari lake left. joining us now is arizona secretary of state katie hobbs, democratic candidate for governor in arizona. thank you very much for joining

us tonight. what will happen to democracy and fair elections in arizona if republicans win the governorship? >> well, hi lawrence, it's great to be back, thank you so much. you said it yourself. democracy is on the ballot. that is certainly the case in arizona. we have, my opponent, an election denier, centering her campaign around trump's big lie and is running for office so she can change the rules and overturn the will of the voters in future elections. she is dangerous and to extreme. she has no ability to govern. she doesn't understand policy

or legislation. and she would create untold levels of chaos in arizona if she were elected. >> and secretary of state, you made sure in every way that you could, of the 2020 election was fair, that the votes were counted accurately. everything that you did in office as secretary of state in that election was then, in effect, certified again and again and again by others who looked at the results in arizona. what will it mean if next time there is a republican secretary of state in your position? >> a republican secretary of state in and of itself will not be bow but it's the republican nominee that we have an arizona who is not only an election denier, and oath keepers, he's an insurrectionist, who was at the capitol on january 6th. he's defending the actions of those who stormed the capitol, and said if he were secretary

of state in 2020 don trump would still be president and certainly has continued to fuel these election conspiracy theories, field threats against election workers in the state of arizona, and certainly has no understanding of how to even run elections in arizona. >> is there a potential for some kind of clash like we've never seen before if you are the democratic governor of arizona and you have a republican secretary of state who simply lies about what the next election results are? what can you win the governorship do about that? >> well, like i said all along, we have checks and balances in our systems, and that is what has kept us safe so far. so one person acting alone isn't going to be able to over term the will of the voters. we have a check from the governor's office who has to sign off on certifying the election.

the governor has to approve the election procedures manual. and the courts can certainly take action to stop someone who is not following the law, which would be the case if secretary -- decided not to certify the elections because he did like the results. >> arizona candidate for governor, katie hobbs, thank you very much for joining us once again tonight. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back.

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investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol will hold its next hearing tomorrow at 1 pm washington time. msnbc will begin special coverage at noon ahead of the hearing, one hour before the hearing. tomorrow night, i will join nicole wallace, alex wagner, chris hayes for a special primetime coverage of that hearing and a recap of the high points of hearing. that will begin at 8 pm eastern followed by a special edition of the last word at our regular time of 10 pm more night. that is tonight's last word,

11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. ♪ ♪ ♪ tonight, conspiracies, lies, and accountability. that search for accountability for january 6th is about to get back underway. a preview of what to watch for just hours from now. then, a trump insider reportedly flips and says it was none other than the former president himself who ordered top secret documents moved in his florida home. plus, alex jones and the billion dollar consequences of his conspiracies about sandy hook. i will talk with two parents who won in that courtroom today, as the 11th hour gets underway on this very busy wednesday night. ♪ ♪ ♪ good evening once again. i'm stephanie ruhle. the house select committee trying to uncover what led to january 6th in less than