by the people. >> may that happen. thank you to both of you for continuing to shine a light on this, we appreciate. it colorado secretary of state jena griswold. jefferson is a president and ceo of the national constitution center. that was a lot. but it was important. thank you for watching me, that does it for me. catch me here next out in sunday morning from eight to 10 am eastern. i'm hitting the road, by the way, i'll be coming to you from michigan for more velshi across america. i'll be having conversations with voters about the things that mattered most of them in this election. don't forget, velshi is available as a podcast. you can listen to the entire show on the go anytime, subscribe and listen for free wherever you get your podcast. stay right where you are, the sunday show with jonathan capehart begins right now. s right now. >> indicting trump. as attention shifts to mary garland, a new piece in the atlantic argues why the attorney general will bring criminal charges against donald trump. its author, frank wham four, will make the case.

the economy. inflation remains high but unemployment remains low. jarred bernstein of the president's counsel of economic advisers will try to explain. 31 years after her judiciary committee testimony against clarence thomas, anita hill talks about the supreme court and her bud, believing, live. and laura proof that speaker pelosi ate one bit afraid of donald trump. >> i'm gonna punch him out, i'm going to go to jail, i'm going to be happy. >> i'm jonathan capehart, and this is the sunday show. this sunday, the january 6th elect committee is closing argument. and what was likely last public hearing on thursday, the committee voted unanimously to subpoena donald trump. after more than a year interviewing more than 1000

witnesses, they want to hear from the man who started it all. the committee also presented never before seen evidence that showed just how horrific things were inside the capitol during the insurrection. there is also exclusive reporting from nbc news that the committee is seeking all communications between secret service agents and members of the oath keepers, before and on january 6th. after thursday's hearing, trump released a rambling and incoherent 14-page scurried. which began with a line, in all caps, the presidential election of 2020 was rigged and stolen, exclamation point. whether he's not he would comply with the subpoena was left unaddressed. the hearing also made trump do something he hates, sharing the spotlight. because new evidence showed speaker of the house nancy pelosi as the calm and deliberately to the country needed when its government was under attack. >> mister secretary, i'm going

to call the mayor of washington, d.c. right now, and see what other average he has, other than the police department. it's definitely safe, not safe enough, for us to go back. they're still trying to penetrate the building, it is not a safe thing. because we're trying to figure out how we can get this job done today. i worry about you being in the capital, though. >> i'm at the capitol building, i'm literally standing with the police chief of the u.s. capitol police. >> joining me now, melissa murray, legal analyst, professor at the nyu school of law and co-host of the strict scrutiny podcast. joyce vance, former u.s. attorney in alabama. and neil katyal, former acting solicitor general of the united states. thank you all very much for coming back to the sunday show. neil, starting with you, and starting with trump's response to the committee. we can tell trump probably wrote this response himself,

because it contains the word hoax twice, radical left twice, illegal five times, 2020 presidential election six times, and fraud ten times. but he never says if you will comply with the subpoena. >> yeah, so, this is a 14-page creed, jonathan, that is very hard to follow. but it does seem to dig the hole deeper for donald trump, i can't see it in any legal way helping him. unless he is trying to go for the insanity defense, of which this paper seems to be some evidence of. but i think the idea that trump is going to testify just by this congressional subpoena is pretty fanciful. this is a man who took the fifth amendment more than 400 times the last time he was questioned under oath. i doubt he has suddenly become eager to testify. i know that you are going to have franklin for where on your show later. just to cut to the chase, because i know this is the most

important question to think about, is merrick garland going to indict? i agree with his two main points. one, garland doesn't want to indict donald trump, doesn't want to be the first attorney general in history to do that it indict a former president. he's truly a moderate guy, the opposite of a bloodthirsty can scar or something like that. that is point when i agree with. but point to in the foer thesis, garland has to indict and will indict. it's too extreme, the attitude he shows on this 14-page decreed further is that. there is no contrition whatsoever, very hard for the justice department look the other way when the department, every day, day in and day out, is locking people up for far more minor offenses. >> melissa enjoys, i want to come to you on this as well, get your reaction to what neal said. but also, melissa, do you agree with neil that that 14-page disagreed dug the hole deeper for donald trump? >> i don't think it helped, but

i don't think it is necessary v issue that he is focused on, his legal exposure. i think what this screed is about is making a case to his base, he is playing to the court of public opinion and he knows that, if he can just run out the clock on this committee, watch congress change hands, then this committee goes away and the subpoena goes away. and at least one part of his troubles goes away, although there is much left to be said about the other investigations elsewhere. >> joyce, your reaction to neil? as trump dug the hole deeper? >> so, i think melissa's analysis is pretty savvy. trump is trying to run the clock out. i think what he should be more concerned about, to neil's point, is that he has not received any subpoena from the federal grand jury that is working on the january six investigation. because the people who don't receive subpoenas are people who are targets.

and ultimately, i think this analysis that merrick garland really didn't want to be the first president, first attorney general, to indict a president. didn't want to do that because he was afraid or week by because he believed in retaining a constitutional rule of law system, and is ultimately being moved towards that decision, in large part, because of the former presidents lack of any show of recalcitrance. lack of acceptance that he lost the election. lack of willingness to support democracy, even at this late stage. that merrick garland will have to ultimately view this evidence as evidence of criminal culpability, and take that very important step to indict and to prosecute. and it will be more powerful when he does it because of his hesitance. it will mean that he will have dotted all his eyes and crossed his t's. there will not be gaps in the evidence, no legal flies when he makes a decision to indict. instead, he will be so focused on preserving the strength of

the institutions that he will prosecute with an eye to that, and i think we will all be better off despite complaints overtime that he has been slow or unwilling. i think we'll all be better off because of the support for the institutions that is so central to america islands approach to this case. >> and i'm really looking forward to speaking with franklin foer, after i talk to you guys, and the next block. neil, i'm going to switch gears. as i mentioned in the intro, the committee has asked the secret service for all communications between the oath keepers and agents. we also saw an unsettling email about how an fbi official was warned after january 6th that some in the bureau were, quote, sympathetic to the capitol rioters. are you worried about our institutions ability, not only to act with a bias, but that there are elements within agencies whose job it is to uphold the constitution? and, not to mention, law and order. they're in with the folks who are seeking to undermine it, or

overthrow. >> i have faith in the institutions of the hole, the law enforcement apparatus as a whole. i do worry about individual agents, other people sometimes of positions of power. i still wonder about a lot of those are raised to secret service text messages and that. the great irony here is that donald trump and his supporters have spent years attacking the fbi, viciously, for months. claiming they are actively working against him, only for their own internal records to show that, if anything, the situation looks like the opposite. so, i think, as more information comes out about the fbi, about the secret service, we need to strike a balance between properly holding those institutions and our leaders accountable for any failures, but also not completely trashing all the important work that these folks do every day, day in and day out. >> and melissa, donald trump was handed yet another legal loss this week when the supreme court rejected his appeal to have about 100 classified

documents go back to the special master. now, doj is officially appealing to get rid of the special master altogether. what do you think of all of this? >> well, with regard to former president trump and the supreme court, he's had a lot of losses at the supreme court but i don't think he we should underestimate the degree to which his appointments have really, drastically shifted the tenor of this court to the right. he has been on board, is appointees have been on board for a larger conservative project, even if they haven't been on board for donald trump's personal needs. that is important to remember. with regard to the appeal to the 11th circuit of the special master issue, this, again, is an issue that i think it's going to be about timing. the government has until november 17th to file, the former president has until november 10th to file his response here. and then the circuit court will have a couple weeks until the whole investigation is supposed

to be completed, and the review was supposed to be completed by december 16th. so, i don't know that this really does much to close the gap in time. like, maybe if the circuit court acts expeditiously this will be over by the end of november. but it was supposed to be over by december 16th to begin, with so i don't know what that does. but it does, really, have important ramifications in terms of the special master's review and whether or not district courts can even do something like this in the future. >> and joyce, marc short, a former top aide to former vice president mike pence, testified again before a federal grand jury last week, after a federal judge rejected trump's executive privilege claims. what impact will that decision have on others claiming executive privilege? >> this was an important decision by judge howell in the d.c. court. because that not only cleared the way for marc short to testify, it ordered him to go ahead and do it right then. it didn't permit any sort of

delay in that testimony. that it's now the roadmap for other people who doj is seeking to hear in front of the grand jury. it is an important push back and, as melissa says, we need to be careful about viewing the courts in the context of just one case. just because they rejected trump in his effort to intervene in the mar-a-lago setting, it doesn't mean they're not on board for the full conservative agenda. but of these cases, permitting law enforcement to do its core function have investigating, the courts have held, they've done it outstanding job of permitting doj to continue with its work. whether it's in mar-a-lago or the january 6th case. i think we'll see more of this, and doj will be able to get speedily testimony and needs in front of the grand jury. >> joyce, vance melissa murray, neil katyal. as always, thank you all very much for coming to the sunday show. and coming up, indicting trump.

why my next guest thinks attorney general merrick garland will inevitably charge the former president. stay with us. h us what will you do? ♪ what will you change? ♪ will you make something better? ♪ will you create something entirely new? ♪ our dell technologies advisors provide you with the tools and expertise you need to do incredible things. because we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ever notice how stiff clothes can feel rough on your skin? for softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free & gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. the towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. try downy free & gentle.

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committee's public hearings over, all eyes are on one man when it comes to holding trump accountable. attorney general merrick garland. folks despair he won't do anything, but in a provocative new piece in the atlantic, franklin foer lays out the reasons why he believes and indictment is inevitable. joining me now is franklin foer, national correspondent at the atlantic. frank, thank you very much for being here, welcome to the sunday show. >> pleasure. >> congratulations on a fabulous piece. >> thank you. >> you spent months reporting for this piece, you even sat down with the attorney general. he acknowledged, he didn't tip his hand, didn't say whether he was going to our wasn't going to. but explain to the viewers why

you believe, in the end, the attorney general will indict the former president. >> i tried to study the man, the way he thinks about the law, his instincts. he is renowned for being this incredibly cautious person, and he is a very cautious person. i talk to one of his best friends and he told me he doesn't like driving with him because he drives so slowly. but i looked at the way that he talks about the department of justice, the way he thinks about the rule of law. and i look at the case, especially the mar-a-lago case, where trump has really just thumbed his nose at the department of justice, which is one of the things that merrick garland loves most in life. and he has really acted as if the rule of law doesn't apply to him. so much of mary garland's career has been about enshrining the rule of law in the practices, procedures and arms of the department of justice. >> all right, let's talk more about mar-a-lago in the toe

that the attorney general went with trump. which was surprising. what's donald trump's reaction to the search a pivot point, a turning point for the peter naturally cautious merrick garland? >> i should say, i think there is a continuum that happens over the course of the summer. where garland is in this place where he's got this really panoramic vista of american life. the justice department touches everything, and i think he can see the threats to democracy emerging. i think it started to change the way he thought about his position and his job. then, we get to this moment where the mar-a-lago case comes and the ex president accuses the justice department of planting evidence. and he launches this vicious assault on the fbi and the department of justice. and i do think that had the effect of, i mean, merrick garland is someone who will never be radicalized but it had the effect of making him much more confrontational. i think that has been a hallmark of the way the justice department has dealt with the mar-a-lago case.

>> it's confrontational response to trump, did it surprise people within doj? >> you know, i don't think so. dan, the department is so careful about talking about ongoing investigations. but i would say that even before then i was talking to people at the justice department and they describe to me how a different merrick island was emerging over the course of this job. and they were surprised that they got to know him, as they got to watch him work, that he was more aggressive and confrontational, more concerned about the fate of democracy than they had anticipated when they went into their jobs at justice. >> one of the things i have had for a touchdown for me in watching the attorney general is keeping in mind that he was the lead investigator on the federal government's investigation of the bombing in oklahoma city. how formationally was that for him, in how he views the role

of the attorney general now? >> i think it was extremely formation all. he asked to be put on this case which was, like mar-a-lago or the january six case, a very emotionally fraught case. where people saw some great injustice done and they wanted justice done quickly, and garland's response to that was to really just emphasize getting it right above getting it done quickly. so, he was very, very meticulous, he took the long way around to get the convictions in the case. but he got convictions that stuck, and that is the key thing for merrick garland. when he brings a, case he wants it to stick. he wants a jury to get the verdict that he desires and he wants the case to survive appeal. >> how much is the prospect of violence weighing in on merrick garland's deliberations as to whether to indict the former president? >> see, i think it cannot help but enter into ones calculus, as one thinks about it. but i think merrick garland is going to do his best to shut that out. he is really in a no win

situation. he will either anchor the laughter he will anchor the right. and, so he's not going to be popular at the end of this. the justice department is going to get challenged no matter what. so, in the end, it's based on making the call based on the law. and i think that is where he's going to land. >> right, last question for you. attorney general garland has said many times, quote, no one is above the law. you write that he, quote, clearly gets frustrated that his answer fails to satisfy his doubters. but it says something that so many people don't believe him or, more accurately, believe that trump will get away with what he did, right? >> well, that is trump's biography, right? that he is constantly eluding accountability. but i think it's also the approach that the justice department has taken, it's been incrementalist. it is hard to see the results. in our culture, we want instant

gratification. the idea that somebody could be meticulous, kind of anal retentive, following the evidence in building this case in the way that the textbook suggests the case should be built. it's something that just kind of offense a lot of our sensibilities. so, he is really kind of an old-fashioned person, doing this the old-fashioned way. >> boring is the word that comes to mind when thinking of attorney general merrick garland. but that is actually probably his number one superpower, for when he does this. no one can accuse him of flying off the handle, this was a deliberate decision. franklin foer, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show and for the piece in the atlantic. later in the show, anita hill will join me to discuss her fight to and gender violence. and we will get her thoughts on the state of the supreme court, more than 30 years after her famed testimony before a senate judiciary committee. you don't want to miss that. but first, book bans and curriculum restrictions.

why a national busboy sees these elements as key issues to get out the vote. we'll explain, after the break. ain, after the break yeah. i respect that. but that cough looks pretty bad. try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love, plus the powerful cough relief you need. mind if i root through your trash? robitussin. the only brand with real honeyand elderberry. the first time your sales reached 100k was also the first time you hit this note... ( screams in joy) save 20% with the lowest transaction fees and keep more of what you make. with a partner that always puts you first. godaddy. tools and support for every small business first. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin.

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ban books has been startling. in 2021, the american library association reported nearly 1600 book challenges or removals. the highest in 20 years and mostly targeting black and lgbtq themes and authors. just a few weeks before the midterms a unique collaboration is taking place. the african american policy forum has partnered with the transformative justice coalition on a books un-banned bus store to mobilize 10 million more black voters to the polls and cities from minnesota to florida. joining me now in studio is kimberly crenshaw, executive director of african american policy form. she coined the term critical race theory and is a law professor at columbia

university and ucla. miss crenshaw, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> pleased to be here. >> tell me about this bus tour, here in virginia and washington, d.c.. you told me before you came on that you started in minneapolis. >> minneapolis, right. >> specifically, what is the purpose of the store? >> well, jonathan, it's the 10 million more black -- bus tour. it's a voter kade, a lot of people are finding don't even know that an important election is coming up. so, the first point of the tour is just to alert people that an important election is coming and they should get involved. more importantly, what we're trying to do is to get people a sense of why this election is perhaps the most important one in our lifetime. we all know democracy is on life support, you've just been talking about it. what we're also trying to do is to reach black voters in particular, because, look, there are 40% of registered voters who don't vote. there are 6 million african

americans who are not registered to vote. a lot of the issues that we're gonna be facing over the next couple of years have everything to do with the fact that we cannot save our democracy without securing anti racism and racial justice. there is no daylight between the two. so, that's what the point of our part of the motorcade is. we're calling it from freedom writers to freedom readers, the unbending book campaign. >> you were telling me, you've been on the bus traveling nine straight days. you started in minneapolis, now you are here in washington, d.c., as we speak, but also in virginia. >> yes. >> what have you've been hearing from black voters? or just black people on the strip? >> so, it is true that a lot of people don't know that an election is coming. so, we are telling people that this is important, but they are shocked when they find out that some of these banned books, these banned books that are framed as divisive are books that they grew up on. they are shocked to find that the bluest eye is being banned,

the color purple is being banned. they are disturbed to learned that their children cannot read books like something happened in this town, which is about a black person who was shot by the police. of course, they are so excited to get the 16 19 project, critical race theory. they've heard that these are banned ideas, they heard that this is forbidden knowledge. they want to know why. we want to tell them why. so, we are giving away 6000 books throughout 17 states and over 24 cities. >> are you saying, so, there is enthusiasm about learning about what's happening to books and books that involve lives that aren't the majority, that aren't white. is that also translating to people saying, where is my voter registration forms? >> absolutely. i think a lot of people focus on the presidential campaigns, they don't have a sense that

the local elections really determined things like who sits on school boards. school boards determine what kind of education your children get. they are the ones that can decide that the story of ruby bridges, for example, is too divisive to teach in the public schools. so, we think it's important for people to actually have a concrete sense of what local elections are all about, what midterms are all about, i think once people see it, that's what we've been seeing. once they see what's at stake, then they're really mobilized. what we want people to do is not vote just individually, but go out and get their posse to vote with them and to read with them as well. >> we have less than two minutes left. i cannot have you here without giving you the remainder of that time, as the person who is the person credited with coining critical race theory, which is a complex law school taught idea that has now become this catchall for everything

that annoys some white people about the truth of our history and the truth of this country. your reaction to that? >> well, you know, jonathan, critical race theory has been and was a law school course. the way that anti-democratic forces have framed it to encompass everything that's anti racism, the entire apparatus from equal opportunity to inclusive bias to structural racism, they are using it as a container to make racism unspeakable. when racism is unspeakable are multiracial democracy is an achievable. i appreciate though the fact that they've put the desire for critical race theory in everybody's lives. our books are just flying off the tables. so, i have to thank them for that. oh, fair play. >> jiu-jitsu. >> right. it will never be unspeakable on this show. kimberly crenshaw, thank you so much for coming to the sunday show. >> thanks for having me. >> next, a key report says

about the economy and your pockets. we'll break it all down with one of president biden's economic advisers ahead. onomic advisers ahead. ♪♪ subway's drafting 12 new subs for the all-new subway series menu the new monster has juicy steak and crispy bacon. but what about the new boss? it looks so good it makes me hangry! settle down there, big guy the new subway series. what's your pick?

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my point of sale is on point. (vo) switch to verizon business unlimited today. from the network america relies on. economic anxiety already has americans on edge. and now the latest inflation report could be signaling more trouble ahead. the consumer price index hit 8.2%, slightly lower than in august, but still near a 40

year highs driven by surging food, health care, and housing costs. it's still unclear whether this will tip us into a recession. one thing is clear, americans are feeling the pain. earlier, i spoke with jarred bernstein, member of the white house council of economic advisers. >> jared bernstein, welcome to the sunday show. >> it's a pleasure to be with you. >> let's dive into the september report. 8.2% inflation year over year in september. why is it so staggeringly high? is there any relief in sight? >> well, there's some relief in the report if you get under the hood, which you should in these reports. gasoline was actually down 5% in september and in the third quarter the price of gas fell almost a third. that provided some very important breathing room for american consumers. it's directly related to the release of 180 million barrels of oil back in march that the

president committed to. some of those barrels are still coming out. there is a lot of pressure and elevated prices squeezing budgets, we are well aware of that in the area of housing, in the area of food as well, of course even with a decline in energy prices there still elevated. i think the question becomes, jonathan, are we doing everything we can to help ease those prices? i think the answer is yes. i can take you through many of our actions that we believe are helping. >> i'm sure you're gonna mention the inflation reduction act, maybe american rescue plan, the infrastructure, infrastructure law, all of that, i just want to have you stick for a second on gas prices. will the reduction of the reduction in oil production by the opec plus countries have any real impact on the american consumer? >> well, look, i think this is a global commodity. anytime an global actor decides to cut back production, it tends to have an impact.

and i can be a bit more precise about that. but first, let me tell you that we view this as a very short sighted and misguided action by opec+. we are in a world where you have vladimir putin unconscionably weaponizing energy in his war against ukraine. and this action by opec+ complements those irresponsible actions. if you look at the price of oil, it has gone up maybe around $7 a barrel, something like that since but was priced into the markets. here in the u.s., the price of oil, i checked, it's about $86 on the friday closed. that's way down from 120 where it was well above a few weeks ago. and so, we've seen some movement in the right direction. again, related to the policy that i talked about earlier with releases from the reserves, i think if you talk about the inflation reduction act, if you're talking about our work in the ports, the energy work that i just mentioned, those are having an impact, but you

have to look too hard to see them right now and some of these indexes. for example, in the september report, core goods, that means the kind of things you go and buy at walmart, target, those prices were actually flattened september. that relates directly to some of the unsmiling of supply chains we've seen in airports. shipping costs are down, aerate costs are down, the congestion problems are down. we're getting good through -- out of these ports and into the ship to shelf. but more work to be done there. it's gonna take some time for that to feed into these price indices, we need to hasten that gap. >> let's talk about the federal reserve, because it has raised interest rates, the last time i checked, five times this year alone, put the brakes on inflation. not only has inflation not abated, but now there are growing concerns that all of that break pumping will push us into a recession, in a recent interview the president said he downplayed the possibility of there being a recession, said

that if there is one it would be, quote, slight. what is a slight recession? >> well, first of all, let me just say that i wrote down with the president said, before he said that he said, i don't think there will be a recession, it's possible, i don't anticipate it. he's not predicting a recession by a long shot. what he's really referencing, jonathan, is that we have and historically solid tight market, i've been doing this for a long time, labor markets have been my big focus. the benefits of low employment, particularly to more vulnerable communities, that really important in this economy. when you have a 3.5% unemployment rate that is not an unemployment rate that is consistent with recession. >> right. >> the hispanic unemployment rate was 3.8% in september. the lowest on record going back to 73. now, you're trying to look around the corner, that's exactly what you should be doing in this context. but i still think, the president thinks that there is a path to a soft landing. >> final question, please explain how we can have such

good news when it comes to unemployment, the lowest it's been in decades, while at the same time inflation rates that are the highest we've seen in 40 years? >> yeah, that's actually kind of a correlation that's existed in economics for a long time. when labor markets are very tight, when there's a lot of economic activity, sometimes the capacity the economy can get stressed and strained. and we certainly saw that in the pandemic, we had strong demand, we had constrained supply, strong demand shows up as low unemployment rate, supply shows up as inflation. are we are the fed doing all we can, are we engaging the right policy to address this? again, from our perspective, an starlings supply chains as one of the most important things we can do. helping energy costs come down. most important thing we can do. this is a global inflationary problem, the u.s. is better situated than any other country i can see out there for both

maintaining our economic gains while easing these price pressures. we just have to continue to punch at it until we get those prices down to more normal levels. >> gerard bernstein, member of the white house council of economic advisers, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> my pleasure, thank you. >> and after the break, the man who hopes to keep another huckabee out of the arkansas governor's mansion. chris jones, with the democratic candidate for governor will join me next. keep it right here. keep it right here ♪ what will you do? will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you.

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i'm chris jones, and i may be new to politics but i'm not new to arkansas. >> in just three weeks, arkansas voters will head to the polls to cast their ballots for a new governor. decided between democratic rocket scientist and girl dad chris jones, or former white house press secretary, republican sarah huckabee sanders. daughter of former arkansas governor michael could be. my next guest says arkansas needs a change, and can't keep electing how could be. joining me now is chris jones, arkansas democratic candidate for governor. chris, great to see, you welcome to the sunday show. >> great to see you, thanks for having me on, jonathan. >> all right, why are you running? >> oh, i'm running because i'm a seventh generation are cans in who loves this state. and as someone who benefited from the opportunities that were provided for me, i went from patches in my pants to a

ph.d. from m.i.t.. you don't do that unless you have a solid found nation and opportunities, and i want to make sure every arkansa has that. i want to stop all the madness that is happening, and there have been sanders wants to make this an eight debater for bad policies. and i will stop that now. >> you just mentioned you went from patches in your pants to a ph.d., from it. you're also an ordained minister. and i also heard an urban planner. when i heard this i was like, what can't he do? which leads to the larger question. as you are traveling around the state, how are you connecting with every day arkansan? >> i have always said that if you give arkansans a chance, respectfully look them in the eye and have a conversation with them, they will give you a chance. so, i'm doing that by just showing up. we've been all over the state, northwest arkansas, northeast arkansas, southwest arkansas. i've been to places folks don't even know exist like coal or

harrison or gold. what you find is that arkansans are ready for making a choice between chaos and community. and they are choosing community. all this to say yes, i have a ph.d. in urban planning, that has allowed me to understand systems. i also grandma double multi million dollar organizations. now, i pay like apparent to my wife, and er doctor and an air force veteran. by the, way we just celebrated a birthday, we have the same birthday. together, we are coming together and saying let's move arkansas from the bottom in so many key rankings to the top. let's turn arkansas into an innovator and a leader in agriculture technology. let's spread pb&j across the state, preschool, broadband of jobs. because that's what we need to do to spread the opportunities i had to all arkansans across the state. >> happy belated birthday to one you and your wife. one of the criticisms of your republican opponents that she's been largely absent from the

public, i she refused to debate you earlier this month. meanwhile, as you, said you've been covering a lot of ground, visiting all 75 counties in the state. two questions. is a sarah how to be sanders underestimating arkansans? and to, is she afraid of you? >> well, i can't answer the second question but i can say that every indication is that she is underestimating arkansans. i have spoken with folks who are trump voters, lifelong republicans. and they're saying, look, the fact that you are willing to pragmatically look at problems and go to the root of the issues, whether it's education, whether it's health care, whether it's reproductive rights or economic development. going to the root of the issue as an engineer and urban planner and minister, they really appreciate that. because folks are sick and tired of the noise that is created from folks like sarah huckabee sanders. i understand that what they want is someone who can actually solve the problems

that matter in their lives. >> all right, you have a little more than three weeks until election day. how do you plan to close the polling gap between you and sarah huckabee sanders? what is your message to people still on the fence about who to vote for? >> so, we've already closed the gap in the latest poll. and within 11 points of sarah huckabee sanders among likely voters. what we do is, in order to close that gap, we are showing up everywhere. we are literally going to places that have not seen any candidates in decades. and we are saying, you matter just as much as anywhere else. so, we are hustling, we're grinding, we're doing fish fries, dallas, barbecues, we're doing family reunions. and here's the deal, people vote on october 24th. that's when early voting starts. and the energy and excitement on the ground is electric. that is where we went, because we have the momentum, we're starting to close the gap and

we're going to turn people out all across the state. particularly in areas, you see the map behind, me their areas in the state that have been ignored and left out. we have been showing up for the last two years, and people are excited to vote for community over chaos. >> chris jones, democratic candidate for governor of arkansas. thank you for coming to the sunday show, good luck on the campaign trail. >> thanks for having me on. folks can go to chris for governor.com and check me out. >> i should also point out, we did reach out to sarah huckabee sanders's campaign multiple times before today's broadcast, but never heard back. coming up in the next hour, we are just weeks away from that midterms and republicans are doing everything they can to pin rising crime rates on democrats. and in some states, it seems to be working. we are talking about how it is affecting some key races ahead. plus, it's been 31 years since she testified before a senate committee against clarence thomas. i will speak with anita hill on her fight against gender

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liberal on crime. border chaos, rising crime. >> but in my house. >> catherine cortez masto votes

with joe biden 94% of the time. >> some people say they're soft on crime, no, they're not soft on crime, their program, they want crime. >> republicans are making crime essential issue with the midterms a little more than three weeks away. and in some places, it may be working, with races that were once favoring democrats over the summer, and now tightening. for senate races are considered toss-ups, according to the political report. georgia, nevada, pennsylvania, and wisconsin. if democrats lose even one, their hopes of holding or expanding their majority against republicans diminishes, if not outright disappears. it's even more troubling on the house side, where 5:38 selection tracker gives the republican party about a 70% chance of winning the chamber. joining me now, the naeher ex, and senior vice president of third way, michael steele former republican national committee chairman, and msnbc political analyst, and steve

phillips host of democracy and color, podcast and author of the new book, how we win the civil war. thank you all very much for coming to the sunday show. len i, i'm starting with you, the numbers don't pay the clearest picture, republicans are making crime a central issue. the latest nbc news poll from late september didn't have crime in the top five most important issues to voters, it was down at number seven. meanwhile, your colleague, jim kessler, who is here in march after your organization released a report showing that eight out of the ten states with the highest murder rates in 2020 voted for donald trump. and the, crime appears to be a winning issue for republicans. why? >> you know, i think that they're definitely trying to paint a larger picture that the democrats are the party of chaos, right? so, we're talking about crime, chaos on the border, chaotic inflation. and that's the overall way that they want to paint our party. as you pointed out, that is ridiculous because we all want our communities to be safe, and

frankly, democrats have shown that they're equipped to do that. you know, mississippi has five times the murder rate as new york city. but you don't hear a lot about that. i think you really need to make the case to voters that we are the party of chaos, they're the party of extremism and insurrection, where the party to really deliver results for the people. >> okay, chairman steele, this is what is called a layup for you. why is the crime message hurting keep democrats as opposed to say the economy? >> because over the last few cycles democrats largely gave a lane for that narrative from the defund the peace moment forward. that's been something that has been the back of peoples minds. in the period we're in right now, it's reminding voters how uncomfortable they felt with that idea. well, yes, that's not a direct narrative, in fact, republicans

want to defund the fbi. but the reality of it is crime is something that white america associates with people of color, in large measure. that's what these ads are. they are showing you photos of convicted black men, they're not showing you to the point that's made of the white men in mississippi who have been part of increasing the crime right there. but the reality of it is, race is at the bottom of this. at the end of the day, it boils down to how they play the race card, how effectively they play the race card, and i don't hear anybody saying, he's talking about the race card, it is, it is, if it wasn't the race car they wouldn't show ads of black convicted, when they'd be showing statistical ads, showing how the rates have gone up under this part here that party. that's not how this played out. so, you know, the reality of it is there is a lane here, it's working, it's having an impact in places like pennsylvania especially. and oz has been very effective

at going after fetterman on this issue. and we're seeing it tight in the race. >> and steve, more on this point of crime, that's where i was going. crime seems to work with republicans because it's all about associating black people, the other, with crime and tagging that democrats. that's not something that's new this election cycle or even back in the 80s. >> yeah, no, thanks for having me on, jonathan, i hope this panel isn't confusing for your viewers. i was once on the d.c. metro train and i was confused for michael steele. [laughs] but you are 100 percent correct, people have been using crime as a way to try to scare white people about people of color from was 400 years. the 1712 south carolina constitution, they passed a series of slave laws,

specifically to control the behavior of negroes and other slaves who are barbarous and savage in nature. that's a long-standing piece, you look at nixon in 68 after the urban rebellions, or the 60s running on a platform of law in order. and then trump tried to do the same thing. you know, build up the suburbs, demonize minnesota, et cetera. it is a very very long-standing proposition. but it is less effective now, trump lost to biden because the competition of the country has changed. when nixon didn't, there were people of color there only 12% of the population, now where 40% of the population. and so, that also provides the prescription for how do you deal with it. some in the best white people to stand up to, it call it out explicitly, and maximize voter turnout. >> lemay, in this conversation, i am still trying to understand how in an economy where

inflation is at the highest it's been in 40 years, you still have republicans who are suing that message and going right to crime, which i said in the intro, the latest mp -- it's seven in terms of concern. crime. my question is, how do or should democrats push back against this notion, this long held notion in politics that democrats are soft on crime? >> yeah, like i said, i think we need to focus on the fact we're providing resources to prevent crime. we are the ones to really deliver staging to our communities. everyone wants the safe community, no matter your race, your gender, where you live, we need to be on the side of providing that safety. and we have been, you know, it's on the numbers. i think we need to be refined on this and not let republicans be the only ones talking. and one thing that has changed,

although the attacks have not changed, as we mentioned, is the way that people associate crime with guns on our streets. we just had a poll this week that showed that when you ask people why crime is rising, an equal amount people said that it was illegal guns on the street as people that agreed that it is defunding police. so, we really need to lean into the fact that we can make this about democrats, making our communities safer, and getting those guns off of our streets. >> so, chairman steele, you've just heard laine lay out that argument. do you think it's an effective argument? >> i do think it's an effective argument, that should have been argued about six weeks ago, seven weeks ago, eight weeks ago. she is right on point. i don't know why democrats don't talk to the people who actually know what the hell what's going on and can actually give them the play. in the months before a general

election, instead of three weeks before a general election. >> you've met democrats! >> what part of this country are you not getting, that you don't see this coming at you like a rigging freight train at 1000 miles an hour? you're standing there like it's not going to hit us, no, it's about to hit you! the fact that you've got these resources and communities that are out here that are on the ground that are potential cohorts in clarifying the narrative for you. we are three weeks out! this message has sunk and with voters. you're right, it's number six on your hit parade but it's number one and how people are looking at who they're going to vote for. and that is the piece that is mind numbing really stupid for me, that they haven't figure that part out. but yes, she's absolutely right. thank you linette, i'm sorry they didn't listen to you, i'm sorry they didn't listen to your cohorts weeks and months ago to develop a counter narrative.

i could have told them, anyone on this panel could have told them it was coming because everyone in the country saw it. >> so, yeah, i'm going to have to cut you off, reverend. [laughs] you know we can't talk about the midterms and elections without talking about georgia. the key moment in the debate, between herschel walker and senator raphael warnock on friday. we will talk about on the other side. >> one thing i have not done, i've never pretended to be a police officer. and i've never threatened a shoot out with the police. >> i have to respond to that. >> we are moving on, gentlemen. >> i have to respond to that. you know what, i am with many police officers, and at the same time -- >> mister walker, mr. walker,

excuse me, mister walker. out of respect, i need to let you know, mr. walker, you are very well aware of the rules tonight. and you have a prop, that is not allowed, sir. >> i am worked with police officers. steve, i'm not sure that's the way you win over voters. but i want all of you to give me your reactions to that moment. steve, you go first. >> well, the whole georgia race, where you have a literal successor to martin luther king running against somebody who has never been in politics and has a whole history of misogyny and violence against women, had no credentials at all. it's really, frankly, embarrassing. fundamentally, all these races come down to about questions of turnout. the conversation around the country's trade. -- biden won by about 12,000 votes in 2020. there are 1.6 million new

voters in georgia, just since 2018. so, this election is going to turn on who actually speaks to those people and who actually inspires and mobilizes them. that is the critical strategic decision around these midterms, that you can't just ignore these impacts. there's actually a lot of data and research, middleburg at princeton researched willie horton in 1988, which you talked about. he found that being explicit in calling out the racist dog whistle is what is most effective, it reduces its impact and its influence. but if you try to just ignore it, then it's actually more effective. so, this is what obama did in 2008 when they tried to do the whole he's around reverent right around him, trying to scatter the white people against. when you cement white people to reject, that's the best way to increase your white support and that's the best way to win. >> i have to get laine and michael in on this. michael, i'm comedian last. linda, your reaction to that

and how it fits into the larger picture? >> i think this is a great example of how republicans are throwing away the senate majority. if we win the senate, it's going to be because we put up mainstream candidates who are talking about mainstream issues, who are appealing to the voters of their state. and the trump lane has taken over and put these extreme candidates in the senate races that, frankly, they shouldn't be able to win in a mid term year like this. mitch mcconnell said it's -- with him. they have a real candidate quality problem, i think it's very likely to result in democrats keeping the senate. >> and michael steele, last to you. we are running out of time but to real quick questions. one, why is this race still so close? herschel walker could win! and two, would you have recruited him? >> hell no! [laughs] no, no! 1000 times, no! no.

>> but he could still win! >> yes! and it went to the point you just made about how you lean into the attack. it's okay to attack your opponent on political grounds in politics, you don't have to attack him personally. but when a candidate opens themselves up, the way keri lake has out in arizona and herschel walker has in georgia, i don't understand why democrats are sitting here, tiptoeing around the tulips on it. i mean, lean into it! the man has so many children he can't keep count. he paid for an abortion. the pro life, pro family man was out there paying for abortions. not once but apparently more than once. and the reverent is like, well, we're just not going to talk about it. in arizona, you have the consummate election denier and you don't debate her? you won't stand on the station every time carry like opens her

mouth look at her and go, well, that's why you're not qualified to be governor. and make a point every time she opens her mouth. this is not rocket science, democrats. you guys, you're sitting here and you're watching this thing wither away and looking at these elections that, as you said in the league, and jonathan, democrats were ahead on. they had solid ground on. now, they've tightened up. there is that part that happens like that. but the rest of it is on you at this point, because you've got some candidates out here who think they just need to be nice about it. instead of leaning into the fight. the republicans, trust me, if the shoe was on the other foot this would be a whole other game for them. >> hey, michael steele, i'm in all kinds of mass because we've gone probably two minutes over. we've got to go. michael steele, linda rice, steve phillips. thank you very much for coming back to the sunday show. the general election is right on the corner, have you made a plan to cast your ballot? voting rules and your state may have changed since 2020, and

our plan, your vote tool is here to help. that key formation on the voters when you live, including friday graduation deadlines, mail-in and early voting options. what to bring with you on election day and more. scan the qr code on your screen now to be taken directly to the plan your vote site. coming up, a new book that looks at the tumultuous four years of donald trump occupy the white house. you want to hear what coauthors peter baker and susan glasser learned after conducting more than some 300 interviews. journalist peter baker joins me next. with skincare super ingredient collagen! olay body wash hydrates for healthier-looking skin in just 14 days, from dry and dull to firm and radiant. with olay body, i feel fearless in my skin. it's the subway series menu! 12 irresistible subs... like #11 subway club. piled with turkey, ham and roast beef. this sub isn't slowing down any time soon.

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be indicted while he was in the white house because special counsel mueller's team found ten potential criminal charges against him. that's one revelation in the new book by peter glasser, peter glasser, peter baker and his wife susan glasser. they write, quote, the prosecutors thought they had rock-solid evidence of obstruction of justice, but the justice department's long-standing policy, formulated under one president facing impeachment, richard nixon, and reaffirmed under another, bill clinton, held that a sitting president could not be indicted for a crime while in office. and so, even though mueller's team identified ten potential counts of obstruction, the special counsel ordered his staff not to make a straightforward declaration

that those acts constituted crimes. joining me now is peter baker, msnbc political analyst, new york times chief white house correspondent and coauthor of the divider, trump in the white house, 2017 to 2021. peter, thank you very much for being here. congratulations on yet again another book. >> appreciate it. >> let's start at the 30,000 foot level. it is stunning to learn from your book that they had, like, ten instances and yet nothing happened. you were reporting, both you and susan were reporting in realtime what was happening with the trump administration. now that you've written this book, tell us the perspective you've gained as a result of this book. >> yeah, i think we wanted to go back and do more reporting once it is over, right? so, we didn't know a lot, we did a lot of reporting, everyone did a lot of reporting. you and your colleagues, our colleagues did a lot of breaking news for four years. but we know that there is more

to be learned. so, we sat down after is over to say, okay, what can we learn now? what we learned, i think, it was even more fill in the blank than you thought. wild, radical, erratic, dangerous, all of the adjectives you thought are even more so. and the main point of our book, the thing that's different but our, as we cut try to capture all four years of the presidency. theory being that to understand january 6th, understand the explosive conclusion of this presidency, the test of the constitution, you have to understand january 20th 2017 and every day in between. it wasn't an outlier it wasn't an outrage, the four-year march to this finale. it was a war on institutions and traditions of american government. >> you know, one of the things that comes through in your book is that in those four years donald trump was vindictive and used the levers of power and the instruments of government to try to exact revenge, either on people, businesses,

countries. let's start with countries, that's first of mind after the january six committee hearing that we saw on thursday. one of the more startling things was the directive that he put out there that he wanted troops immediately withdrawn from somalia and afghanistan. you write in the book that he wanted to bomb iranian missiles at the same time he was trying to ratchet up to go to war with north korea? >> yeah, throughout his presidency there were these moments where he would sort of get his, you know, his dander up in effect and want to take action. and his generals, the generals who run the military are trying to tell him, wait, no, wait a second, we don't have authority to do what you're talking about. we don't have a legal basis to attack, for instance, iranian missile sites inside their own country. that would be a war crime, they told him. and other times he was so bellicose towards north korea that his chief of staff, his for starting a retired marine general actually worried that

he was going to trip us into an escalatory cycle that would lead to a nuclear war. that's one of the reasons encouraged him to do this romantic diplomacy, remember, he called it a romance with kim jong-un. a lot of people thought that was kind of, you know, off kilter if he will. but it is safe for at least than the belarus rhetoric that could've led us to war. >> well, before i ask about this, it won't be recognized by the former president, but in, because you said at the beginning that you decided to do even more reporting on top of the reporting you did. what were some of the things you learned in the new round of reporting that you did not know in realtime? >> well, there's so many things. you know, a couple examples, john kelly, the chief of staff we just mentioned he was so perplexed having had to manage this unmanageable president that he actually bought a book about donald trump's mental health and tried to figure out, the dangerous case of donald trump by 27 medical

professionals. he told people is useful guide to figure out a deal this president. another good example there is trump talking with john kelly about what he expected out of people, particularly his general. he's, like i want the generals like they had in germany in world war ii. he's like him in the not two generals? he says, yeah, they were very loyal to hitler. he's, like no, they're trying to kill hitler three times. he did seemed action of this. i think what we learned is how many times he was, you know, out of the norms, how many times he was willing to use and banned institutions of government to meet his political instruments, whether be the military, justice department, telegenic agencies, even the health care professionals during covid. >> actually, in the bookie right that dan -- who is then the director of national intelligence, after the meeting where donald trump took the side of vladimir putin over american intelligence agencies, thought that putin must have something on donald trump. you report that he actually

after all his time in that rule never found conclusive evidence. he tried to find out. >> this guy had access to all of the secrets of american government, he was the director of national, appointed by trump, not a liberal, former republican senator, port chief of staff he watched, so disturbed by, it's that, it's very possible the russians have compromised the president of the united states. that's what he told people, he was concerned about it. i can tell you just how perplexing that relationship with russia really was, slanted in a lot of ways. it is a one way street. this was seen in osaka, japan when putin and trump are meeting on the sidelines of the g20. and putin, i mean, trump is doing the trump thing, bragging, you know the polls they love me so much they're gonna name afforded for me israelis love me so much better name a settlement after me. putin says very drolet, he says, yes, donald, maybe they should name all of israel after you, a very mocking way to getting at trump. of israthere is a one way stres

relationship. >> real fast, another question, given everything you know about donald trump, the trump presidency, who he is, do you think he will run for president again as the means of staving off possible indictment? >> yeah, i think if you had to put money on, it that's where you put your money on right now. he thinks that things are going well for him in that sense, there's the bases still with, him he liked to see some sort of protection against investigations. let's remember, if he is not gonna run, he's not gonna tell us or give a hint until the second, the minute the attention goes, way the money goes away, the power goes way. >> peter baker of the new york times, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> appreciate it. >> and next, it's been more than three decades since anita hill gave powerful testimony at capitol hill against then supreme court nominee clarence thomas. she joins me next, live, to talk about her fight to end gender violence and her thoughts on the current supreme court. stay with us. stay with us [sfx: stomach gurgling] it's nothing...

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anita hill testified before the senate judiciary committee marking a sea change in the nation's view of sexual harassment, with millions of people watching on tv screens across the country. hill accused her former supervisor, clarence thomas, at the time a supreme nominee, social harassment. for her bravery and courage to come forward she faced intense public scrutiny and has since used her voice to speak out against gender based violence. in her book, believing, anita hill takes on the leaders and institutions that stand in the way of progress. joining me now is anita hill, professor of social policy and law at brandeis university and author of believing, our 30-year journey to end gender violence. professor hill, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> it's a pleasure to be able to talk with rio. i'm excited to hear what you

want to talk about two. >> yes! we'll talk about your book. >> there's so much going on, i'll just say, there's so much going on in the world. i'm glad we're able to talk about this issue, because it is so important. i mean, sexual harassment, but it's so much more that is going on in the lives of women and others as well who are experiencing gender based violence. and -- >> professor hill, in fact, yeah, in fact, you say, quote, pledging to get rid of a few bad apples are all forms of denial, none of which have effective solutions. how do we move towards solutions when the root of the problem is often ignored or misunderstood? >> well, first of all, we ignore the root of it, we ignore the significance of it, and the breadth of it. the harm it's causing to us as a society. and as i was saying earlier, there is so much going on in

the world. we think all of those things are more important. whether, you know, when democracy is at risk we think that's more important. what i try to explain in believing is that our democracy depends on keeping people safe and secure. and if they can be subjected to gender violence and any of the settings that we know is happening right now, then our democracy itself is that risk because of that behavior. >> you know, professor hill, the midterms are a little more than three weeks away, abortion is on the ballot, we've already seen senator lindsey graham propose a national abortion ban. could you speak to how a-limited access to abortion can profoundly affect gender harassment and violence? >> well, you know, limited access to any kind of rights really keeps women back.

it holds women back. so, specifically with regard to abortion you, if you cannot make your own medical decisions about your body, at the times that you need to be able to make them, you are going to have a difficulty controlling or obtaining economic security. we know that for women, careers can be very short-lived and opportunities can be even more short-lived. within those careers if you cannot make a choice about whether to have a child or to wait to have a child, then you are not going to be able to be sure that you're gonna be able to secure that economic opportunity, be able to provide for your family, maybe you're providing for exist and children as well, so, you know, any kind of vulnerability will then put you at greater risk

for harassment and other kinds of ways that you can be discriminated against in the workplace. >> professor hill you know, i was one of the millions of americans watching 30 years ago when you testified in those hearings against now justice clarence thomas. you put the term sexual harassment into the political lexicon for the nation to hear and understand. yesterday marked the fifth anniversary sense actress alyssa milano sent a tweet saying, if you've been sexually harassed or assaulted write me to as a reply to the sweep, millions of people around the world responded to it. the me too movement was of course originally founded in 2006 by -- burke. what kind of impact do you think the me too movement has had? >> well, i think they've really raise public awareness. they put the truth out there about our experiences in a very very important way. and people listen they believe,

you know, i just read a report by the national center, 22 states have enacted laws to protect against sexual harassment since the me too movement. but there is more going on and more needs to happen. we need to in fact to do more than an actual laws. we need for leaders and our businesses as well as in our military, as well as in our churches to stand up against this and realize that the behavior that we once thought was just normal and regular and routine, you know, was inevitable, it is no longer inevitable. we should never be thinking of it, we should be using our resources to eliminated it. it's going on around the country in many settings that i've had a chance this past year. i have seen what can happen if individuals act, if communities act, if workers stand up

against it in their workplaces in support of victims. >> anita hill, professor hill, thank you so much for coming to the sunday show. >> thank you. >> and coming up, it is time to sound off on the other sunday shows, i have a great panel to do just that. so, keep it right here. so, keep it right here

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evidence, you can find it, i'm happy to send it to your team. the problem is that the media won't cover. >> we've covered this extensively. will you accept the results of the election in your election? >> we talk about the issues? i came on here thinking we're gonna talk about the issues facing arizonans right now. you spent the entirety of his time talking to 2020. i think you are stuck on 2020. >> will you accept the results of your election in november? >> i am going to win the election, i will accept that result. >> if you lose, will you accept that? >> i am gonna win the election, i will accept that result. >> i'm gonna win, all except that. joining me now to sound off, -- democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college, terrace that meyer, lincoln project senior adviser and former republican communication director, and uva center for politics residents collar. and here with me on set is eugene daniels, msnbc political

contributor, political white house correspondent, and, because he doesn't have enough jobs, coauthor and morning joe senior contributor. winded just saying all of that. >> i'm trying to be you with all of it. >> all right, sensor right here, what is up with carrie? i'm gonna accept the results if i win, but if i lose -- >> it sounds like no, it sounds like unknown, right? that's what we heard from donald trump in 2020, we heard it in 2016, he said the same thing. all except the results because i'm gonna win. that doesn't give anyone faith that you're actually going to accept the results. these elections are closed, they're one of the margins, and she's someone who has been spreading the big lie. she's been right with donald trump she tried to contact down a, bash such he was focused on 2020. david was more focused on 2020? donald trump, he's been talking about, it she's been running around is kind of really the best version of the donald trump to point out, right?

she is what the next generation of that looks like for the republican party. >> tara, please, where my looking? where is, the, right here. where are you, tara? explain her to me. >> well, terry lake is someone who looked at the playbook and said, i can do that, i can do that better than trump. i can put a pretty face on it with a nice filter. she comes from a news background, she understands how to present herself in a way. and it's the crazy confidence, she is making crazy look confident and smooth. she is luring people into this nonsense, this woman is an election denier. she's, you know, these people that continue to deny the election are the ones that are undermining our democracy, their democracy deniers. you know, this is someone who is a very very dangerous. it's not just about the election, it's also about the

crazy qanon conspiracy theories that she's giving a face to. she is using this trump femme bought model that she is, you know, out here portraying, and it's luring people in. this race is really close. it's basically statistically tied, i have to say that i really do not understand katie hobbs decision not to debate her, i think that's a huge mistake. she needs, in the words of my good friend michael steele, she needs to get her behind on that stage and show the difference to people. every time terry lake says that nonsense out of her mouth, say, that's why you're unqualified to be governor of the state. i don't understand this. i think it's a strategic mistake on behalf of katie hobbs. people want confident fighters for them, i don't think the show strength for. hershey's to get it together. >> katie hobbs was asked about this on cnn, by the way, i notice your bionic woman reference there with from bots. let's play katie hobbs on cnn and hear what she has to say and answers a question by why

she won't be keri lake. >> president biden's former 2020 co-chair said i would debate and i would want the people of arizona to know what my platform is. if you think she's as dangerous as you are saying to democracy, is it your responsibility as a candidate who wants to run arizona to show and explain who their alternative is? >> that is exactly what i'm doing right now. there is a lot more ability to have a conversation with you without her interruptions and shouting to do that. >> okay, basil, and now i'm beginning to understand some things. is that unacceptable answer for why she won't face the republican candidate, her republican opponent which he says is dangerous? >> no, it's not acceptable at all. look, if you're a democrat you have to challenge everyone, everywhere, and every time that you possibly can.

you have to bring sort of the nonsense of the other side to light. there are almost 300 election deniers running for office across the country, many of them statewide office. if there is no way you can concede ground of any kind to individuals that run for office with that platform. it's, you know, i've been saying for a long time, it is not a big lie, it's a big conspiracy. the fact that so many people are running on the same platform means that it's coordinated. there is money behind it. that means it's incredibly incredibly dangerous. there are a lot of reasons, for example that raphael warnock should not or did not mean to debate herschel walker, but you have to show that comparison of the fact that herschel walker -- shows us all, you know, essentially what we're dealing with here. that was an important point, an important moment in that debate. so, yeah, it is not an acceptable reason. she has to take carry late to

task. >> all right, we're gonna take a break now so i can put that time into the next block. don't go anywhere. more from this amazing panel right after a quick break. r a quick break. 12 irresistible subs. the most epic sandwich roster ever created. ♪♪ it's subway's biggest refresh yet! it's nice to unwind after a long week of telling people how liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! (limu squawks) he's a natural. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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with me congressman adam kinzinger of the january six committee was on one of those shows, here's what he had to say about donald trump and that subpoena. >> i think that's gonna be a negotiation, i have long learned in this that people will say something publicly to, you know look at the former secret service members who claim that cassidy hutchinson was lying when she obviously was not about over hearing that conversation of what happened in the limo. they claimed they had come and speak to us, they won't do it. they have yet to come in. so, all only address that when we know for sure whether or not the president has tried to push them to talk to us live. >> okay i am now a little confused by even what the question was. i guess it was weather, if donald trump or to comply with the subpoena, would he do it live or memory acts? but tara, why is adam kinzinger

even having that kind of conversation? am i reading too much into it that maybe they're actually behind the scenes having conversations? to have trump come in? >> yeah, i mean, i would not hold my breath. we already know what a disaster donald trump's anytime that he is deposed. there is a long history of this. however, i am not going to deny the fact that there could be, i don't know this for sure, but there could be discussions and trump world where he would want to do this so that he could use this as an opportunity to spread more election denying and nonsense. he basically, we know what he would say, we see every time he's in a rally. he's devolved even further down this rabbit hole of lunacy concerning the election and just pure desperation. so, what he is this as an opportunity? perhaps, with the differences, there's actual legal consequences, if he lies under

oath. i mean, i don't see him actually doing this. he doesn't, you know, he talks a big game but he's actually a coward. he is a loser. he knows it. we found that out during the hearings that he knew he was a loser and yet continued to push this election lie and ferment the violence and do nothing about it. i think that this is just -- i hope people check out the lincoln project's new ad on this, we have a nice twist on trump and his invite to come and testify. people will like it. >> it is very cute. and you said all that needs to be said about donald trump in a subpoena. basil, i'm coming to you because the republican candidate for governor was on fox. here's what he said he'll do immediately upon inauguration if he were to win. >> as soon as i am sworn into office, i am going to be declaring a crime emergency here in the state of new york. i am going to suspend new york's bail laws and some other

pro-criminal laws that have been passed. force the legislature to come to the table to negotiate an improvement because we have to take back our streets. >> now, basil, the last time i saw any pulls, which was awhile back, governor hochul was doing fine. is she is still doing fine? is legal, didn't does he actually stand a chance of winning in a little more than three weeks? >> you know, he has been closing the gap, to be clear. one pull him -- ten points behind a recent poll has him a lot closer. he's been pushing the envelope on crime. and quite frankly, there was a shooting in front of his house not long ago. and so, to be clear, crime and pushing crime and the conflation of crime and race has always worked in politics because it drives fear, and he has found that sort of niche right now, even as he has taken the issue of reproductive

rights sort of off his website and stop talking about it as much as before. he feels he is found that messaging. i don't know that it works. you have the state legislature that has spent a lot of time on the reform, even the democratic governor has brought the legislature back to adjust it. so, i don't know that there is going to be a stomach for this if the state legislature, i will say however, when bernie sanders that the other day that democrats need to talk about more than reproductive rights, this is where i think it becomes critical. were conversing on a lot of issues. we need to be embracing all of it, like crime, talking about social security and the covid increased, it got lost in the -- we have to be able to hammer home in those issues. hopefully the government can pull it off. >> all right, eugene, we have one minute. so, the floor is yours. whatever it is you want to say, especially if it involves katie

hobbs in arizona. >> to go back to arizona, katie hobbs, you talk to democrats there, what they say she is able to get a big war chest by doing a lot of the tv hits and being seen publicly in the d.c. new york circles as someone who could take it to the people. now they're worried that, oh, wait, was this the right candidate? you saw her answer there, you've seen how she has not been, he doesn't want to debate keri lake. voters want to see that. democrats are not happy with this. they say, get out of the basement, stop doing zoom and go and debate this woman onstage whether or not keri lake is gonna be able to talk about, you know, the election, lie about the election, she's doing it anyways, so it's hobbs's job to fight that. that's something you're definitely hearing from democrats in arizona and d.c.. >> debate her! basil, terrace that meyer, eugene daniels, thank you all very much for coming to the sunday show. we will be right back. will be right back.

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wishes to my aunt lillian. she is hospitalized right now in greenville, north carolina. she is an avid water of the sunday show. we are all wishing you a speedy recovery. thank you all very much at home for watching the sunday show. i will be back next sunday at 10 am eastern. stay tuned. my friend alex witt has the latest. hi, alex. >> i'm guessing and lillian is

going to feel a lot better after hearing the get will wish from her very favor nephew. that is really nice. may i add one word? no -- i told you i was going to see death of a salesman. that wonderful segment last week. it was breathtaking, spectacular, outstanding. i will not soon forget it. anyway, thank you very much, my friend. i hope and lillian gets better soon. >> thank you, alex. a very good day tolliver from and i said we see world orders. welcome to -- the race to the 2022 midterms finish line. this comes just 23 days in a matter of hours before one of the most consequential elections in u.s. history. new today, the white house announced president biden will hit the campaign trail on november 1st in florida to try to bolster charlie