tv Dateline MSNBC October 30, 2022 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT
people think that stephen avery is innocent. they made him look like he was a nice person. the evidence is wrong, the evidence is beyond overwhelming. he is guilty. >> the story grip the nation in the series making a murderer. so many americans have learned about it. it has been world -- >> stephen avery and his nephew convicted of murder in the haunted killing of a young phenom photographer. >> i did not do it. >> did you have any kind of vendetta against stephen avery? >> absolutely. not >> for the first time on television, a lead investigator defenses investigation, which led to a conviction. >> this was seen too many by a false conviction. >> he knew right from wrong. >> officers want that
information in the worst way, and they got it in the worst way. >> the prosecutor fight back with an explosive book. >> people are going to hear the over other side of the story. >> do you think you have new evidence that could face stephen avery? stephen avery? welcome to dateline. it's an extraordinary case that defies easy answers. at the center of it all, stephen avery. he and his teenage nephew were convicted in the murder of the photographer. then came a documentary series so explosive that investigators have been forced to fight back. two sides, one truth. who will you believe? >> the mystery of what happened here in this sprawling fields
of rural wisconsin has captivated the country. >> we the jury find the defendant, stephen avery, guilty. >> in 2015, the netflix series making a murderer convinced many viewers that stephen avery embedded brandon dash three were convicted of murder. >> free stephen avery. >> it is a case state line has been falling for more than a decade as their lawyers worked tirelessly to freedom from prison. we posed the question that everyone has been questioning. >> why would stephen avery do this? >> it is a great question. >> we speak with former prosecutor can kratz, which reveals his provocative theory that stephen avery made himself a murderer. >> stephen avery started planning this event the very first day he went to prison. we talk with fat tom fassbender who came under fire for this
controversial investigation. why are you sitting here today? >> i finally realized that someone needed to speak out, to report the truth on what happened. >> so, what did happen here? our story begins with a woman at the heart of this case. a 25-year-old photographer from wisconsin, named teresa halbach. >> she loved being behind the camera. >> the became friends with teresa in college, both working at the same studio in green bay. kim says teresa had a special way with her suspects. she really loved make other people smile. >> the two state in touch after graduation, after they launch their careers. but that would all change suddenly on october 31st, 2005. kim caught a story of the local news -- teresa was missing. >> investigators say the 25-year-old photographer was on
assignment for auto trader magazine, when she disappeared. >> my heart just kind of dropped, knowing that it was somebody that i knew. >> what do you do at that moment? >> i felt helpless, because you want to deny it. you want to try to get in touch with her. >> did you try to call her? >> i tried to texture, but -- >> no response. >> wisconsin police quickly launched a massive chart, hosted by a team of volunteers. after two days a big break. >> they had found teresa's vehicle. in a salvage yard. >> tom fassbender was a special agent with the wisconsin department of criminal investigation hustled over to the 40 acre stretch of land in the county, only to the salvage yard and auto mechanic, stephen avery. >> had you heard his name before? >> only through the immediate. >> stephen avery was a big story. he had been convicted of rape in 1985. 18 years later, dna evidence
exonerated him. a wrongfully convicted man, welcome back into society with open arms. and looking for justice of his own. >> were you aware that he had filed a lawsuit against the sheriff's department? >> yes i did her. that >> avery hope that winning the 36 million dollar lawsuit could help and get back on his feet. >> he had an opportunity to make something of his life, and it appeared that he was headed in that direction. >> now, two years after his release from prison, this poster boy for a wrongful conviction was back in the news, and not in a good way. >> i hope she comes back, social go back to her family. >> when fassbender arrived on site, teresa hawk had unemployment on this all jarred on october 31st to take photos of this fan that avery sister was selling. teresa had left a message this morning.
stephen avery had been on the property that day and left around 2:30 pm. he did not tell her that much more, but for investigators a dark tale started emerging from the evidence, especially after the made a gruesome discovery in the back of her suv. >> primary in the cargo agatha of the rav4. >> and in the front, more blood. >> there was blood on some of the upholstery, and that was very telling swipe of blood towards the ignition swept of the vehicle. >> test show that that blood was stephen avery's, taking him from person of interest to prime suspect. >> you believe you can explain the blood? >> absolutely. stephen avery had a cut on his right hand, middle finger, that was freshly scanned over, and
if you put that key and put it in the ignition switch it lined up perfectly with a contact swipe. >> how did he explain the? scott >> i think he claimed he had cut it in the junk hard doing work on vehicles. >> fassbender fear the worst, and after four days of searching his team found something disturbing in the fire pit near avery's trailer. >> what appeared to be bone fragments. >> human bones. most interesting, because family members told investigators that stephen avery had built a bonfire hours after theresa had been in the yard that way. >> it was a huge bonfire. flames going as high as the roof on the garage. >> was it all making sense to you? >> absolutely. >> that picture came into sharper focus one fast benders team found another clue. teresa is clearly inside avery's bedroom. >> the toyota key with a little fog connected to it. >> this is huge.
>> especially when the crime lab found avery's dna on it, it would become a highly controversial clue in this case. the evidence was stacking up against steven avery, and fassbender says that that rav4 would later tell investigators one last thing. >> we have tested the hood latch, and found dna matching stephen on the hood wretch. >> they believe that avery had some explaining to do, so nine days after the disappearance, brought avery in for an interview. dateline filed a freedom of information request for the video. >> avery was defiant, and even claimed cops were framing him, planting evidence. >> fassbender and uyghur were not buying, it and play stephen avery under arrest.
investigators were convinced that they had their man. still, they did not know how or why teresa had been killed. >> coming up, shackles, handcuffs, strange behavior. teresa's creeped out. could something in his past have led him to murder? when dateline continues. when dateline continues. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. hey, thanks for helping me out. of course. you can easily get helpful customer service over the phone or on the progressive app pretty much anywhere. even at the library. or the coffee shop.
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bakari special prosecutor began building his case. he chronicles it all in his book, avery. >> what do you feel people know the least about in this case? >> the book is about the case against stephen avery, that has set forth a better representation of what the real evidence was. >> better, he said, then the way the evidence was presented in making him. murder in his book, kratz laid out his complete theory of the case, with details that he had not shared before. for one thing, kratz told dateline that he believes stephen avery had set his sights on trees in the weeks leading up to her murder. >> as we move closer towards october 31st, we see steven's behavior changing. >> as crowds got auto traders
records, we learned that teresa had actually made five earlier visits to take photos, some that stephen avery's request. >> he starts making calls directly to, teresa going through auto trader. crowds determine that on the day before one of those visits, avery purchase these shackles and handcuffs, and when teresa arrived -- >> he answered the door that day wearing a small white towel, and we know that teresa was creeped out by that behavior. she tells friends and coworkers about that. >> crowds believe that avery's behavior shows signs of a sexual obsession with teresa that led to murder. >> why would stephen avery do those when he was on the verge of getting this big windfall, potentially millions of dollars? >> that is a great question. i do not know. we know that he is a psychopath. we know that he -- let's say i allege that. i believe that, deep down.
crowds discovered more in avery's pass. 18 years before teresa's murder, avery wrote this letter to his estranged wife from prison, saying i will kill you. a former fiancée told police that he had formally abused her. crowds learn something even more disturbing. this 2006 police report showed a teenage girl accused avery of raping her, a year after his release from prison. it all came together for crowds. he believes that avery had developed a deep resentment of women, which had started with his wrongful conviction, and only grown over the years. >> he has no remorse for his behavior, feels incredibly entitled. as you continue to investigate the case, crowds at a problem. you still did not know how she was killed, exactly where she was killed, was that bothering you? >> yes, but sometimes you have what you have. it was all coming together in bits and pieces. >> he and his team kept digging,
until they got a big lead. in march 2006, four months after teresa's murder, tom fassbender's partner spoke with avery 16 year old nephew, brandon debris, in a series of now highly scrutinized interviews. >> what was your first impression of brandon dassey? >> a sky kid, somewhat introverted. >> once he opened up, the details that he revealed would stun investigators. fassbender said that dassey described a brutal scene. on that halloween afternoon, his uncle asked him to come over to his trailer. dempsey said that they each sexually assaulted teresa in avery's bedroom, and avery later shot her in her's garage burning the body in the bonfire. >> it is a game-changer. the stuff that we were not really where, of like teresa
was shot in the garage. >> after speaking with dassey, fassbender at his team returned to every property once more and they found this in his garage. it bullet fragment. >> that was missed the first time around? >> you could say who's missed. you're talking about a 22 bullet fragment, it looks like a piece of dirt. her dna was on that bullet. >> do you now believe that teresa was shot in that garage? >> yes. >> one strange thing, though, was when they searched the garage for blood, they never found a blood. >> how could you clean up all that blood? >> bleach, paint thinner, it cleans up blood. >> teresa's friend can said that when she heard the details about teresa's final moments, she was heartbroken. >> i remember crying and just hoping that she was who she was, and fought.
because she was a very strong person. >> can crowds charge brandon dassey for a coconspirator in her murder. >> i intend to hold each of these defendants accountable for the rape, torture, murder of teresa. >> but not so fast. dassey recanted his statements. just before the trial, he dismissed the rape charge against him, and did not allow any of those allegations against avery's treatment of women, and avery was never charged with assaulting his ex fiancée or raping the teen. to this day he denies all the allegations. those handcuffs and shackles? no evidence ever link them to teresa. still, in the spring of 2007, they convicted both dassey and avery to murdering teresa. they were both sentenced to life and present. >> you are probably the most dangerous individual to ever
step foot in the courtroom. >> it seemed like the avery saga had ended, but eight years later making a murderer would put kratz in the hot seat. >> coming up. >> was stephen avery framed? >> is it possible that that blood could've been tainted? >> when dateline continues. ontinues y & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. covid-19. some people get it, and some people can get it bad. and for those who do get it bad, it may be because they have a high-risk factor. such as heart disease, diabetes, being overweight, asthma, or smoking. even if symptoms feel mild, these factors can increase your risk of covid-19 turning severe. so, if you're at high risk and test positive, don't wait. ask your healthcare provider right away if an authorized oral treatment is right for you.
released making a murderer. it ignited a bonfire of controversy of the convictions of stephen avery and brandon dassey. now many viewers believe the claims that avery had been making all along, that he was framed by law enforcement. who would want to set you up in something like this? >> did the plant evidence? sure they did. >> kim too caught is avery's cousin. she said she predicted something bad might happen to him after he was exonerated in the earlier rape case. remember, he had recently filed a lawsuit against the local sheriff's department for the wrongful conviction. >> i did tell him that the county was not on with him. why do you think they were not on with him? >> something just told me. they were not going to end it. steve avery, 36 million, dollars or any kind of money.
there is going to be watching him, and look what happened. >> avery ended up settling that lawsuit for $400,000 before his toe. the county did not acknowledge any wrongdoing. he used the money to hire his defense attorneys. >> we knew going in that it is going to be a difficult offense. we spoke to beginning in early 2016. >> we had a very tough defense in this case, because nobody wants to use the defense that the police deliberately try to plant evidence, or plain frame somebody. >> it goes against society. those people are there to help us, they are the police. >> right, but it is where we thought the evidence pointed. >> avery's attorneys believe the fact that the officers part of the search made for a huge conflict of interest, and mistrust in the crime scene. >> i can say from the evidence that i looked at is that he is innocent. >> preparing for trial, but
union learned about a vial of avery's blood that had been sitting in the county clerk's office. >> we saw that there is still a star or a phone box, this had been slip open with evidence tape. >> that is really the whole moment? >> yeah i, it was. >> and for many viewers, it was the aha moment in making a murderer. the attorneys theorized that somebody could have poked a hole in that file, and spread avery's blood inside her suv. as for her harkey? your theory is that her key was planted in the residence? >> that is where we thought the evidence was pointing, yes. >> by the police? >> by someone. it was not found in six or seven earlier entries into the trailer, and we are talking about a trailer. it did not add up. >> cole lead investigator, tom fassbender, worked aside the local sheriff's deputy, but was employed by a different agency.
this was the first time that he responded publicly to the accusations against him, and his former law enforcement colleagues. >> did you have any kind of vendetta against even avery or his family? >> absolutely not. i did not know his family, never met the man. >> fassbender bristles that the idea that the local vested caters could've done any and thing unethical. >> the people that i worked with from manitowoc county, they only want to do the right thing and do the investigation in the right way. >> is it possible that blood could've been planted? >> no. all of the evidence says no. >> fassbender notes that a chemical called eta had been used to preserve avery's blood in the vile, and that a trial test showed no presence of edva of the blood found in the suv. >> there is no eta in the vehicle. >> fassbender's argument, that since the blood found in the
vehicle did not contain a chemical, it could not have come from the vile. he also notes that a nurse was prepared to testify that a nurse was prepared to testify that she made that whole. regarding teresa's car key not found until the seventh search of the trailer? >> why was the key missed in other surges? >> primarily because where the key was located, on a small bookcase, that was not searched yet. if it was, it was just kind of looked at. >> why not do a thorough search? earlier >> i think part of it is because we went in there, did that first search, but had 12 more buildings, and former residences to search. so we had a lot to do. >> still, it was not just when the key was found that has a very supportive skeptical, it is who found it. these two men, james lang and andrew colburn.
then with the manitowoc sheriff department, it turned out they had just been deposed in avery's lawsuit. >> they were deposed that we later found out. >> do you think that then by nature being with manitowoc, maybe they should not have been there at all? just to avoid all of this speculation? >> it is easy to armchair quarterback, i think we would've done that if we had the resources, but you are talking about a small rural county being assisted by at a smaller county, you need resources. >> stephen avery said these guys headed out to me. the whole departments angry at me. this was the first perfect opportunity to have access to my trailer, plant the key. >> i never saw that. never saw that from anybody him and walk county. >> suspender says the conspiracy to frame avery would've been virtually impossible to carry out. >> i can go on and on about the planting of evidence and how
absurd it is, with the multiple agencies that we had in there. >> but, it was that video of brandon dassey which would really put fassbender at the center of the storm. an interrogation so controversial that it might get avery's nephew out of prison. >> how much of brandon dassey's confession was true? coming up. >> those officers wanted that information in the worst way, and got it in the worst way. >> when dateline continues. when dateline continues [vacuum cleaner] advil targets pain at the source. when pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liquid gels.
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was overloaded. now back to dateline. s overloaded now back to dateline welcome back to deadline, i am craig melvin. investigators deny they frame steve avery in the murder of teresa halbach, after all brandon did confess. but did he tell detectives the truth, or what he thought they wanted to hear. here with more of our story is andrea can. >> all the renewed attention in the stephen avery saga has shed light on the other defendant in the case, brandon dassey. the teenager had been convicted of rape and murder, but to his family none of it ever made any sense. what >> is brandon's someone capable of rape? i don't even think you know what that was of that time. >> took up casey's task for his
appeal. they saw him mentally challenged teen with a low iq. >> what do you think of brandon dassey when you are finally able to meet him in person? >> brandon is a simple soul. i was struck by his humanity. this is not somebody that i could see committing a crime like this. >> that is the psychological power of interrogation. >> the two internees are based in the northwestern university school of law in chicago. they have worked to free a number of wrongly accused victims. what they learned about dassey's case a sound of them. >> nobody was industries can corner when he needed help the most. >> beginning, they say, with this man. >> camille one word to describe lewinsky. >> unconscionable. >> len chicken ski came on board to defend dassey just after the investigation got diocese nephew arrested. --
that caused him to remove from the case. he is faced online vitriol from dallas east porters. >> can i read you some of the comments? >> disgusting human being, a disgrace to the judicial system. >> i've seen. it >> in one instant, she can ski, working to cut a plea deal, had arranged for him his client to speak with investigators. but kentucky itself did not show up. >> that was clearly a mistake. >> this is huge, though. you've got a 16 year old kid, with a low iq, with no attorney present. no parents. it is kind of like feeding somebody to the wolves, in a way. would you apologize to brandon dassey? >> i would apologize to him for not being at the interview. >> so there are mistakes? >> yeah sure, there were mistakes. >> there are people who would disagree with that. >> sure.
>> but as dallas east turns delve further into those stunning statements the teen made, they came to believe something more disturbing. investigators fassbender and weaker had goers to teen into making a false confession. >> these officers took advantage of a disabled youth and got him to say what they wanted him to say. >> do not lie to us now. what >> you're distorting yourself if you live now. >> he has got severe learning stability, an inability to respond in narrative type answers. and they are precisely the areas that make him vulnerable to the kind of tactics that the police officers used in this case. >> the attorneys say that the investigators manipulated asieh with coaxing statements like these from fassbender, who was seated just off camera. >> i am your friend right now.
you are doing the right thing. >> they should never have made those kinds of suggestions, that they wanted to comfort in. that all would be well. those kinds of tactics, with a bread like ten brandon, our recipe for a false confessions. >> they say that the manipulation of the team escalated fall be far beyond simple coaxing. >> the officers needed brandon to provide information not only the real killer would know, and they knew what they wanted him to say. >> they accused the investigators of planting details of the crime in dassey's mind, to get the answers that they want it. for example, remember stephen avery's dna found on the hood latch? the attorneys say that investigators asked ask leading questions to confirm that his uncle had looked under the hood of the car.
>> now sees attorneys in that same interview, the investigators used another crucial detail they learned about the case from forensics. >> they had received a report from the wisconsin crime lab indicating for the first time how treat the whole pocket died. she had been shot in the head. they worked extremely hard to get brandon to say that. >> we have the evidence brandon, we just needed to be honest with us.
those officers wanted the information in the worst, way and they got it in the worst way. even they know that that is bad police practice. >> then, they discovered something at the end of that interview that was a revelation to them. something that jurors in the trial never heard. jassy speaking to his mother. at the first moment that
brandon gets outside the influence of those interrogators, he says, no, this is not true. they got to my head. >> but tom fassbender, the interrogator himself, sees it all very differently. >> coming up, this was seen by many as a false confession. >> i think it was a real confession. he knew right from wrong. brandon was involved in this. >> when dateline, continues. hen dateline, continues. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c goal, you're still at risk ...which if ignored could bring you here... ...may put you in one of those... ...or even worse. too much? that's the point. get real about your risks and do something about it. talk to your health care provider about ways to lower your risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. learn more at getrealaboutdiabetes.com [ music playing ] when we first arrived at st. jude, it was just claire and i. she was still recovering from her brain surgery.
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brandon dassey, now seen by millions, tom fassbender has come under fire for a court and online. >> this was seen by many as a false confession. do you see it as a false confession or a real confession? >> i feel it is a real confession. >> were you ever trying to extract a false confession? >> absolutely not. >> fassbender tonight is that his expressions of sympathy for dallas we were manipulative. >> i legitimately was concerned for him. that was not staged, it was not strategy. >> why do you think people took at the other way? the more sinister way. that you are taking advantage of him? >> i think that is easy to do. it is a cynical approach so to speak, watching tv watching movies, how.
everything about the interviews with brandon was comfortable. >> comfortable might not be a word that gaseous porters would use, especially given his age and intelligence level. >> what about his iq? when you can watch and you can tell he has a lower iq. >> i do not isis iqs. >> could you tell that he maybe was not like other boys his age? >> more socially, probably. i did not want to cross the iq socialize, but he could think. and he knew right from wrong. >> is it possible that it he is easily manipulated? >> it is possible. >> he sounded confused at times. >> quite possibly. >> he did not know what was up and down. just watching it. >> i do not know about that. my thought is that he had 1 million things going on in his head at that time. >> fassbender resist charges that he and his partner
inappropriately planting ideas in dassey's head, like the exchange about the hood latch. >> what to brandon say? >> he agreed that stephen -- >> you use the word agreed, so you brought it up first? >> i think so. >> that is one of the areas that you came under fire for. that you are planting things in his mind. >> yes, that is what they said. and there were instances that we were asked specifically about things. and that can happen in an interview. >> can we take that as a reliable answer, given how it was spoonfed to him? >> well, their side would argue no, and i would say on the entirety of the interview, i would say yes. >> as for that other moment that has angered so many followers of the case.
>> and he regrets about that? bringing it up yourselves, putting that news head? >> there is always things that you can improve on. there are instances, because of brandon's personality, that we had to talk to him and ask more specifically spit certain questions and that happens. >> what do you say to those people who made you a part of this discussion about false confessions, who are yelling at their tvs because they did not like the job that you did? >> it is easy to armchair quarterback. it is easy to second guess that high, that is partly why i'm here. explaining that there is nothing nefarious going. on >> even fassbender wonders if everything jassy said was true. >> we did not try to manipulate brandon, we try to get out the truth. i do not believe that it was a false confession, are there
parts of it that he may have lied on? i do not know. i just do not know. >> in august of 2016, a federal judge weighed in with a bombshell in response to a brief filed by dassey tehranis. jeff willie and often ruled that his confession was involuntary. with that, the judge overturned his conviction and ordered dassey to be released from prison. >> what was that like for you, hearing that news? >> mixed emotions. i know we did everything that above board on magistrate rules, that it is fine, in his opinion. which is all right. because that is the system. >> are you okay if he walks? free >> i'm not okay if the family is not okay. i believe brandon was involved in this. he was there, and he was
involved in. it >> there wisconsin attorney general also believe that brandon was involved in teresa's murder. he appealed in order for release, asking a full panel of judges to review the case. in 2017, that request was granted. the seventh circuit court of appeals heard arguments about whether dassey's confession was coerced. nine weeks later, the seven judge panel upheld the finding that data sees confession was voluntary. meaning the young man will remain in prison. the supreme court room declined to review this case. brandon dassey's lawyers vowed to continue the fight for his freedom. >> coming up, he told me watch dateline. in this stephen avery case, how a six year old dateline led to a brand-new attorney. that is the woman that is going to get stephen out of prison. >> when dateline continues. hen dateline continues
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supporters have been hoping for good news, and they could not know it yet but help was just around the corner. >> he is very gentle and very. loving >> sandy greene's avery's longtime friend and one-time fiancée. convinced of his innocence, she says that she searched for years to find the right attorney to take on his complicated case. during a call from prison, avery told her to watch dateline. >> he had heard that there was
going to be this case on dateline, and so he told me to watch it, just to see the lawyer. >> that dateline program from august 2011 told the story of ryan ferguson, a young man sitting in prison for a murder that he said he did not commit. attorney kathleen villeneuve was determined to get him out. >> when the trial has been lost, everything has been lost, and you've got somebody innocent, it is like the ultimate challenge i think. >> that is the woman that is going to get stephen out of prison. >> eleanor specializes in wrongful conviction cases, and says that she is freed many defendants, including ryan ferguson. sandy contacted her, and she joined the case not long after making a murderer came out. they caught out at zelle near at the correctional institution, when she paid a visit to avery in early 2016. >> million dollar question, do you think you have new evidence that could free stephen avery? >> we do, yeah. >> eleanor invited dateline
into the war room that she created in her office, all dedicated to the avery case. >> do we know if that was tested? >> she even showed us this rav4 that she bought, to get a better understanding of teresa 's vehicle. then in 2016, too much media fanfare, she filed a motion in manitoba any court, seeking new evidence. >> we are going to find out one way or the other if the evidence was planted. >> melber is the chief legal correspondent for msnbc. >> she is looking for new evidence to argue the entire case was done the wrong way. she is basically trying to put the state on trial. >> in her 45-page legal motion, zone or a tax law enforcement, tries to poke holes in the prosecution's case, and raises new questions. >> she notes that teresa cell phone pinged off of a cell phone tower 13 miles away later
that day. suggesting that maybe she left there alive. there is also indication that other people, not from law enforcement, entered the property during the investigation, raising the prospect of other potential suspects. >> she has won an early round. in november of 2016, a judge granted her access to some of the evidence so that her experts could perform new forensic tests, including more it vance testing on avery's blood from the rav4. >> in june, 2017, gulnare filed a motion requesting a new trial for avery. in a statement, she told dateline, we will be able to demonstrate exactly how the evidence was planted in the early part of the investigation. avery, she insists, was framed for a crime that he did not commit. but in october, 2017, a wisconsin circuit court denied that request. the owner petitioned the
judge's ruling to the wisconsin court of appeals, and promised that she is just beginning to fight. as for former prosecutor can crowds and his new book, is or dismisses crowds his claim about avery's treatment of women, and interactions with teresa. she says, there is no proof that avery was becoming obsessed with this all box, and rehashing a story about inadmissible evidence seems pointless. she also notes that crowds has no qualifications to diagnose avery as a psychopath. mr. avery has never been diagnosed as a psychopath. kratz, who prosecuted both avery and dassey, it says he is on haunted. >> are you afraid of katherine's owner? i am not involved in the case anymore, >> she could unravel your work if what she is saying has some weight to it.
you do not think she has a chance? >> i don't. >> if she so confident, why are you so confident? >> we spent 18 months putting this case together. it was not just thrown together, it was not a bunch of keystone cops, it wasn't very professionally, very well. >> crowds does have personal regrets. in his book, he admits to passed prescription drug abuse, and he is ashamed that he sent sexually suggestive texts to a domestic violence victim. while he still takes issue with making a murderer, he is moving on with his life. >> i am hoping that this book will change the narrative. >> but with all of the talk of guilt or innocence, trials were re-trials, peterson says that the person being forgotten is her friend, teresa. >> she is the reason why we are even talking about this and she deserves to be remembered. >> i love hugs. >> she says that she goes back
to this grainy video diary that theresa may three years before she died. it was played at a very sentencing. >> it gives me the chills every time i hear it. because she talked about everything that she loved. is there anything that you would say to teresa, right now she can hear you? >> just that, you are still in my heart and i will never forget you. >> i just want to know, who >> that is all for this edition of dateline, i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. u for watching i have pictures in my head that