it. there's still so much more ahead. a new hour of katy tur reports starts right now. >> if confirmed as secretary of. >> hhs. >> will you. >> commit to working with the fda fda commissioner to review these regulatory actions that are. >> threatening. >> the safety of women? all right. >> sorry, senator. as i said to senator lankford, i think it's immoral to have a policy where patients are not allowed to report adverse events or doctors are discouraged from doing that. president trump has asked me to study the safety of mifepristone. he has not yet taken a stand on on how to regulate it. whatever he does, i will implement those policies.

>> good to be back with you. i'm katy tur, that was rfk jr during his confirmation hearing talking about the administration's stance on the abortion pill mifepristone, signaling that hhs would be open to limiting access to the medication through fda regulations. it is relevant today because of a surprise move by the trump administration, which at first glance appears to signal the opposite that the administration is not going to fight access to the abortion pill. here is what has happened last night donald trump, donald trump's doj, asked a federal judge to dismiss a lawsuit intended to restrict access. the suit brought by three states, arguing in part that if women can get the pill mailed to them, they the states can't fully outlaw abortion. so why would donald trump, who is taking credit for overturning roe v wade, put himself on the same side of the abortion issue as president biden and the democrats? it certainly seems

like a stretch to believe that there's been a wholesale change of heart abortion law. experts like mary ziegler believe it could be a move to buy time to figure out what to do about mifepristone, even to push the issue past the midterms. while others argue dismissing the case has more to do with donald trump hanging on to executive power. confused. it's okay because we're going to straighten it out right now. joining us, msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, former president of the national organization for women and former executive director of the national employment lawyers'nl,f strategist for the bush-cheney 2004 presidential campaign and senior msnbc political contributor matthew dowd and law professor at university of california, davis mary ziegler. she is the author of personhood the new civil war over reproduction. lisa, i will start with you. will you just set the

scene for us with this dismissal, this arguing for dismissal? >> so, katy. >> folks will remember that last year the supreme court had this case before it, but a different iteration of this case, it was brought originally by a group of doctors that formed an organization specifically to bring this suit in front of a favorable judge, matthew kazmarek, and amarillo, texas. but even though he initially enjoined the fda's approval of mifepristone, which would have taken it off the shelf, the supreme court did something surprising. and they said that the doctors who brought the suit never had standing or a requisite injury to sue in the first place. and that should have gotten rid of the case. but for the fact that three states missouri, indiana and kansas, if i'm wrong, mary will correct me. >> missouri, idaho and kansas. >> i had the i basically moved to take over the case in their own names. and now since january 1st, the biden administration, four days before then, president biden left office and now the

trump administration making the same argument. they can't just take over the case and have it exist in texas because they don't have what's called venue there. it's not an appropriate place for them to litigate. there's nothing that they have as those states that would justify them litigating in texas. they also say the states don't have standing of their own because they haven't been economically harmed. and there's no proof that the fda's regulation is interfering with their existing state laws. so, again, the trump administration trying to get rid of this suit. but i do think it's not just a what but a how, meaning they may not want to get rid of mifepristone being on the market through the courts if they can do it. and another more palatable way, particularly if they can use the fda to gather a body of scientific evidence. and i will say, pro-abortion advocates say there is no scientific evidence that mifepristone hurts people, but they may decide to do it more slowly through the fda, rather than resort to the courts where

they know a decision like this would be hugely unpopular. >> mary, i referenced your argument about how this is just buying time for them. is it your belief that they're buying time to do what lisa is laying out, to find an argument against an fda approval of mifepristone? >> yeah. >> i think. >> i don't know. >> if president trump. >> has actually. >> decided what to do about mifepristone, but i. >> do know that. >> he doesn't want the decision to be made by matthew kazmarek. right now. >> we've seen. >> as. >> far as abortion is concerned, that trump wants to control. >> the timeline. >> and the substance of what happens. >> and this. lawsuit is pushing. >> the trump administration to say and do things it may not want. >> to do. >> in an. inopportune moment. >> right before the midterms. one of the things that's really striking about this filing is the trump administration says. >> absolutely nothing. >> about the substance of what. >> should happen to mifepristone. >> does not dispute. >> any of the plaintiff's arguments. >> on the merits. >> so the. >> administration is very much leaving. >> the door open to. >> agreeing with those arguments. >> on the merits.

>> if and when trump feels is the. >> right time. >> we just. >> can be confident that he. doesn't think that time is now. >> so, terry, they're asking the court to dismiss this case. they don't have the power to dismiss it themselves. it's in front of judge kazmarek in amarillo, texas. and he has been notoriously favorable toward anti-abortion lawsuits. do you foresee a chance that that he could say, no, i'm going to let this case continue. >> who knows what what. >> judge kazmarek. >> might do? >> he has a history of. >> being viciously hostile to the lives and. >> the health. >> and the well-being of women. and he sweeps in, of course, transgender individuals and nonbinary individuals with. >> his hostility. >> to women's access to. >> reproductive health care. >> i live in tennessee, a state with one of the strictest abortion bans. >> the hostility here is. >> so awful, the state is even refusing to publish information

about the impact of the strict abortion ban here that has been on women. what we know generally is that every abortion ban, every law against abortion inevitably kills women. that is, it increases the rate of preventable death of pregnant people due to complications of pregnancy and childbirth. right. so, so when president trump plays politics with women's reproductive health and with their lives, i'm not impressed by his playing politics. in this particular case, i think we have to understand that, like the vast majority of republican politicians who are active today, and i'm not saying that as a partizan matter, i'm saying it as fact. the vast majority of. republican politicians are so viciously hostile to women that they are promoting policies that kill women. it's a scandal, really. >> and just to underscore how surprising it would be if this was a wholesale about-face from

the trump administration to suddenly be okay with this. i just want to put up on the screen how donald trump has so far reshaped reproductive health care since he's been back in office, his administration dropped a biden era lawsuit seeking to protect access to emergency abortions. this was the mta case. it is still ongoing, though, because another party is continuing it. they froze title ten funding for 16 organizations. mass layoffs at hhs, restructuring agencies, and targeting cuts to reproductive and hiv services. they pardoned anti-abortion protesters convicted of violating the face act. these are folks that are blocking access to abortion clinics. they've reinstated the global gag rule restricting foreign assistance for abortion services. so the actions of this administration don't fall in line, terry, with the actions of this, this requested dismissal,

if you believe it's because this administration doesn't want to pursue this. >> no. >> they're just. >> playing politics. i mean, certainly the trump administration may decide we don't want to do this now. this will hurt us in the midterm elections. that's playing politics with women's lives. you know, just just pass laws that protect women's access to. reproductive health care. and you cannot ban abortion without blocking women from an entire range of essential reproductive health care. it can't be done. we have we have shown for decades that when you when you think that you are banning just just one procedure, just abortion procedures, it turns out that huge numbers of women get blocked from an entire range of reproductive health care. so. so all i see right now is, is donald trump like a true republican, is simply playing politics with when he's going to attack stone, not whether. >> let me talk about the politics angle with you, matthew. and i'm going to put up

on the screen some polling. this is from fox news. 68% of people support legal access to the abortion pill, 59% of them say legal in all or most cases that abortion should be. and only 32% say it should be illegal. most of the times, the country is still very pro abortion access. could this be a situation where this administration wants to tackle this? if they still do after the midterms? >> well, i think there is actually. some acknowledgment, and i won't disagree at all on the substance of the issue that was previously discussed, some acknowledgment of the power of this issue in. america today, as evidenced by those polls. >> i mean, this is. >> not a 51% issue. like many times, people seem to want to talk about this issue. and the supreme court said in their ruling. that it was it was. an issue. >> that was hotly. >> debated and there was conflicts on it. this is an. >> overwhelmingly. >> you know.

>> supported issue in the american public's mind. and i think the republicans recognize that there's substance on this issue is way off where the american public is. and i'll just take a short walk down memory lane in the course of this is if you look at the aftermath of what the last supreme court decision on abortion is and what happened in the elections after that, republicans took a serious beating in that. and there is it's not an accident that over 100 years ago, two issues aligned simultaneously in the 1920s and the 19 tens, two issues aligned. one was women's right to vote, and two was access to reproductive freedom. in this, those things align together. and it's we are seeing 100 years later, 100 years later, that this is about whether or not women have agency and their own responsibility over their decisions in their life. and that's where we are today. it's the same debate that we had 100 years ago, that women and men stood up and said, one, they get the right to vote, and

two, that they get access to reproductive freedom in this. and i think that's what there is a recognition, i think, by trump, maybe. and the republicans, i think assuredly that this issue is a huge, huge net loser for them. >> when abortion has been on the ballot directly, it has largely succeeded. the population has said, we want to protect the rights to abortion. but but, matthew, you're coming to us from a state where not only does texas have one of the strictest abortion laws, but there's a law that that criminalizes it to you can go. >> has the abortion. >> issue affected elections in texas? >> indirectly? >> do you foresee. >> to the importance. >> of the. >> issue and any. >> upcoming elections. a senate election? >> well, i think it's. going to be a potent issue in those elections that we're about to face in november in the governor's races, in places like virginia and new jersey, where women are running and on the

ballot for governor, i think you'll see it manifest itself in the course of that. it always manifests itself in the aftermath of a big decision, which it did in the previous supreme court decision in this. and i was going to say when your guest said that tennessee, i'll see her tennessee and raise. >> her. >> razor in texas. >> raise you in texas in the course of this. i mean, i think it's one of many issues. it's not the only issue that people care about. i think a combination of these issues, which motivates people in the course of this. and as i say, not only does it motivate women, it motivates many men who also believe in the right of women to have access to freedom. so i think you'll see it play out in 2025. and a big question will remain is it will there be a decision in 2026 that lays it again in front of the american people in a profound way, and then i think it'll have an effect in congressional and senate races. >> let me ask about the other angle here, which is that this is donald trump holding on to

executive power. what about that legal argument that this is a case that would allow states to eat away at the power of the executive? >> i don't know that that's what trump is thinking about here, because honestly, katie, if mifepristone were taken off the market by the fda, i don't know that it would be an immediate state issue in the sense that states would feel that they were encroached upon so much as there would just be chaos everywhere. no one would know what the status would be. but there is one other consideration that i think is going through the trump administration's head. and that's the issue about nationwide injunctions, because in the immigration context, they have been railing against judges who have entered these nationwide injunctions against their immigration priorities. but what was matthew kaczmarek's original opinion in this case all about? it was a nationwide injunction. essentially, by blocking the fda's original approval of mifepristone, if they're telling you daily that

these radical judges shouldn't have nationwide impact with their decision, then if kacsmaryk does that here, they're basically undermining their own argument in the immigration context, and they would rather fight that battle on immigration than they would on abortion any day of. >> the week. and let me just read this from politico to put a little more flesh on the bone. trump's new meat on the bone, trump's new legal filing over the regulation of mifepristone indicates an emerging pattern in his administration's legal strategy, following the doj's move earlier this year to defend a core provision of the affordable care act. the administration's stances in both cases surprised many by backing policies favored by democrats. but at their core, they are about preserving executive power and preventing courts from second guessing agency decisions. the government's stance in this case that the states lacked standing, also comes as the administration is fending off challenges from california and other democratic led states, and could set a precedent in those lawsuits.

going to have to leave the conversation there. everybody, thank you very much for joining us for starting off the 3 p.m. hour. appreciate it. and still ahead, what vice president mike pence just said to criticize his former boss on the economy and the signal gate saga is not over. what new allegations defense secretary pete hegseth is facing. plus, the new threat that the trump administration is leveling against harvard. we are back in 90s. >> work. play, blink. relief work. play. blink. relief. work. play. blink. relief. >> the only when migraine strikes, do you question the trade-offs of treating? ubrelvy is another option. it works fast, and most have migraine pain relief within two hours. you can treat it anytime, anywhere. tell your doctor all medicines you take. don't take if allergic or with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors.

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>> i have. >> two grown daughters. >> i have three. small granddaughters and. >> i look. >> keeping dolls affordable, keeping our kids toys affordable. >> that really. >> is part of the american dream. i think. >> the american. >> people are going. >> to are going to see the consequences of this. i think they'll. demand a. different approach. and i think that approach is free. >> trade with free nations. let's let's use. >> the leverage, the threat of tariffs to negotiate down trade barriers with free nations. >> even while. >> we stand firm with china and others. >> joining us now, former democratic congressman from new york and senior adviser at votevets, max rose, msnbc political analyst and former press secretary to former house speaker john boehner. brendan buck. and still with us, matthew dowd. brendan, i knowll surprisa former vice president continue

to criticize his former boss. >> yeah. >> obviously there's no. >> love lost there anymore. mike pence. >> has been. >> been freed up to speak. >> what is. >> honestly should not be surprising. >> politics or. >> policy views. >> what what. >> what mike. >> pence is talking. >> about was what. defined conservatism and the republican party. >> for literally decades. >> look, it's one of. >> the reasons i'm. >> a republican. i believe in. >> free trade. >> donald trump's right. >> that other nations have put up trade barriers. >> higher than we do. >> but as a result. >> we have benefited. >> more. >> than anyone. our commitment to free trade has made us the envy of the world. >> we have the. >> best economy. the world. >> has ever known. >> and so mike. >> pence is talking. >> about tried. >> and true principles for economic growth. that shouldn't. be surprising. >> but donald. >> trump has so. >> changed what we. >> stand for as a party. it makes him a lonely voice, but it really shouldn't be. and i think we're going to learn pretty quickly why this is a bad idea

and donald trump is going to pay, i think, a pretty big political price for. i agree with mike pence on that. >> let me play scott bessent at the economic club back in march. >> access to cheap. >> goods is not the asset, is. not the essence of. >> the american dream. the american dream is rooted in the concept. that any citizen. >> can achieve. >> prosperity. >> upward mobility. >> and economic security. >> i feel like if you change the cadence, put a little bit more energy into that speech. you could have heard aoc say this. matthew, what's going on with the republicans? >> oh, well, i mean, i'm sure brendan completely understands they are untethered to their traditional economic policy that that they, you know, reagan, bush, all the eisenhower, whomever you name was tethered to in the course of this. i mean, i, you know, the doll thing in combination with so many other things to me. i mean, i'll take a little different,

slightly different stance, though i agree with mike pence on this is so tone deaf, is so completely, utterly tone deaf with what working americans are experiencing in their lives today. they're not walking around thinking, oh, i can't afford $30. maybe they buy one doll for their kid's birthday or christmas. in the course of this, and having had a daughter, i know what that is. having bought her an american girl doll a year ago. in the course of this, they're worried about paying their electricity bills and affording affording air conditioning. they're worried about, you know, having towels in their, you know, in their in their house. they're worried about all they're worried about the price of groceries in this. and so yeah, gifts and all of that are, well, important. but the idea of saying, well, they can only, you know, they're not going to be able to pay $30, which i don't know, maybe donald trump and the others living in live in households that i'm unaware of, where people are running around buying $30. i think it's incredibly tone deaf at a time when americans, especially working class americans, are experiencing such

incredible hardship. >> let me read a little bit from the new yorker, because i think this encapsulates the just the weirdness of donald trump saying this. trump made his fortune selling luxury apartments that explicitly catered to the notion that you can never have enough of anything, especially gold plating. his crypto policy seemed to be designed to further enrich himself and his family, and his energy policies are a recipe for increasing carbon emissions, making personal sacrifices, short term or otherwise, is foreign to trump's nature. and yet, for political reasons, he has been driven to ask americans to accept some limits on their shopaholic tendencies. you know, max, you live in staten island. a lot of trump voters there. lonely thing being a democrat in that part of an area. but did you see a lot of that that aspirational quality to donald trump was really appealing in 2016. do you see this as being something that eats into the aspirations?

>> look, this. is economic chaos. >> and destruction, and. >> that's never a good politics. i don't. >> care. >> if you're. donald trump or a democrat, but i'll tell you what shouldn't happen in light of mike pence's comments. and we're all elated to. >> hear he's pro doll. >> the democrats can't be the party of mike pence. just like we made a. horrific mistake campaigning with the. cheney family. okay. this is not an opportunity for them. >> to. >> become unabashed free traders, or to say. >> we are the. republicans of. >> the bush cheney era. the principal issue with what donald trump and his maga extremists are doing right now is it is just incompetence writ large, and it's destroying the economy. >> so that's a really interesting point. this idea that we do have too much junk in this country, should democrats run away from it, or should they embrace the idea that maybe we do want to have higher quality goods, more ability to live our

lives with less junk and more, i don't know, more comfort. >> we already had that debate as a country. that's why we don't support child labor and that's why we have a minimum wage. we already believe that there should be standards across the board, and just having access to cheap goods is not the only thing that we are pursuing. that's not what donald trump is doing right now without any notice whatsoever. he issued across the board skyrocketing tariffs that are destroying businesses throughout the united states of america. and he did it just because he wanted to issue some really cool tweets and excite his maga. >> what is the argument for democrats then? how do they what is their economic lane here as they go after donald trump? is it just that he's unleashing chaos or is there something more? >> yeah. well, first of all, that's not a bad place to start. but the democrats should be and always should be in the place of enlarging and strengthening the middle class. and i'm sorry,

when it comes down to it, tariffs is not how you're going to accomplish that. you're going to accomplish that by investing here at home. you're going to accomplish that by raising the minimum wage. you're going to accomplish that by lowering health care costs. that used to be old school democratic policies. how about doubling the number of union members in the united states of america? i'll tell you how you're not going to do it, though, by becoming mike pence and saying, hey, we just want free trade across the board. the guy also hates unions and wants the minimum wage eliminated. we should not be celebrating mike pence. >> brandon, what do you think of that? >> well. >> max is sort of raining on my parade because i thought one of. >> the silver linings. >> of this where democrats were going to become free traders with. >> us all of. >> a sudden. >> i guess it's unbelievable. i'm on msnbc. i'm the only democrat here. besides maybe the host, i don't know. oh. no. >> i'm an independent. >> yeah. no, look, i mean, i understand. >> that look, i what i would say is we. >> i don't even think that cheap goods are part of the american dream. i don't even agree that

that is. i think what's part of the american dream. >> is. >> a commitment to capitalism, and we believe that we should be able to buy what we want, what we want to buy, and we should do what we do well, what we do well, and we make advanced things in this country and things that are cheap and make it easy to make like sneakers. >> someone else. >> makes that somewhere else. >> around the world. >> i'm okay with that. i think that the market has chosen, i think consumers have chosen that. where you get in trouble is when you start telling consumers and voters what they should want, what they should have. and we keep talking about these things in sort of trivial ways, like it's all about dolls, we're talking about everything that people rely on is going to be touched here, and it'soi toave a real effect on people's cost of living. and by the way, we just had an election about the cost of living. we know. >> how. >> bad those politics are. >> yeah, well, it didn't work for the democrats, certainly worked for donald trump. is it going to continue to work for donald trump now that prices are going up, or they're expected to at least? brendan buck, thank you so much for joining us, madame max, you're sticking around, coming up, what the

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is gonna want in. the wifi's booming! hegseth can't seem to get past signal gate. new reporting by the wall street journal shows hegseth used the app for multiple chats at least a dozen separate chats, according to people familiar, including asking aides to tell foreign governments about impending military operations and sharing

other unclassified but still sensitive information. back with us, max rose and matthew dowd. wow. i mean, at what point, max, is it just too much? >> well, what trump is saying, right, is that they don't want to admit failure. what they're not understanding is, is that every day that the secretary of defense stays in his office, that's a walking failure. it's a walking embarrassment. you know, this is security 101. there are instructions given out in a very routine basis to all department of defense employees not to do what the secretary of defense is doing. and he likes to talk so much about the warrior ethos and reinstituting this warrior culture. well, the number one thing that leaders understand is you follow the same rules that your lowest level employees are supposed to follow, and that hasn't been happening. we've never seen this in modern political history, where right in the secretary of defense's office is one of the greatest threats to our national security

and the health and welfare of our service members. >> the secretary himself. >> i believe that, yeah, absolutely. >> let me play pete hegseth, because you're talking about the way that he's signaling, the way that he's acting as. and i mean that acting as defense secretary donald trump, as we all know, loves someone who looks like they come from central casting and sounds like it, too. here's hegseth talking about the goals of the pentagon. >> when president trump asked me to take this job, he told me, well, one key thing, but. really two. the first was, pete, you're going to have. >> to be tough. >> as we. >> are leaving wokeness and weakness behind. no more dudes in dresses. >> we're done with that. >> so a guy who says no more dudes in dresses, who swears, who comes off tough. matthew, is that what's most valuable?

>> well, i mean, i hesitate to guess what actually is most valuable in donald trump's mind in the course of this. but it is just shocking to me that they're more concerned about the, you know, number of transgender people in the military than they are the head of the military, violating all kinds of national security, you know, rules and regulations. and how do you preserve secrets in this? i mean, at some point, i mean, obviously, donald trump doesn't seem to want to hold him accountable for what he's done. he will hold him accountable once he sort of becomes a political liability. more every day, as it looks like may happen in this. but the republicans at some point, who hold the house and hold the senate, their refusal to hold any hearings, direct hearings on this issue, is astounding to me. it's absolutely astounding that they abdicated their responsibility in a horrible, horrible, dangerous, you know, national security threat that he that the secretary of defense has become.

he secretary hagel has become a national security threat himself, but they continue to want to point the finger at any other issue other than the one he's really supposed to be in charge of, which is keeping america safe. >> expand on why you and you and matthew both believe he is a national security threat. why is it such a big deal to have these communications on signal and who is at risk? >> so his recklessness is what is a threat right now. first of all, that that much of that communication has been happening on his personal cell phone, of which was publicly available until a few short days ago. any intelligence, even amateur, would understand that it's probably a top five cell phone number that our adversaries abroad are seeking to crack into. >> and they can do that. >> of course. know that. absolutely. and they certainly have tried. and one would argue they were likely successful. now the second point here, though, is the use of signal itself. no, anyone that's spent a day in

politics or government knows that the use of signal is actually rampant. but what is not common at all is the dissemination of classified and sensitive information on signal. even the lowest level service members understand that that is not okay and not allowed. and that's because this type of communication is not secure. >> what does it say about, i guess, the media folks like you, democrats, members of the military, high ranking former members of the military who have come out and said this is dangerous. and yet so many trump supporters don't seem to care. matthew is it? he does, i guess. what does that say about the people who are raising alarms versus the people who are, you know, breaking the alarms? >> well, you know, i you know, and i think there are many trump supporters that care. and i've talked to a lot here in texas.

they care about this. they care about other issues more or more or, you know, to a greater degree. to me. >> national security used to be the top, top, top issue for republicans. wouldn't stop talking about it. >> yeah. well, they talked about it, obviously. and i was part of two campaigns, one campaign that was very much front and center on it. and in 2004 is, i think, what the problem will become. and i'm afraid to say this, and i hope this doesn't happen, is when a tragic incident happens because of peter higgs, becauser and what he's done. and i agree with max, i think they already foreign powers, whether it's china or russia, have already cracked this and have already seen these communications. they're not going to volunteer that they have because they're going to keep if they're going to keep hoping he keeps using it and they're going to keep accessing in the course of this. my fear is that that the republicans in the house and the senate, who, as i say, have abdicated responsibility, will only do something in the

aftermath of a horrible, tragic circumstance that happens likely to our military because of his behavior. >> yeah, let's hope that doesn't happen. gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. on that happy note, appreciate it. still ahead, what question left treasury secretary scott bessent speechless during testimony on the hill today. we have the moment first, what the education department is doing to turn up department is doing to turn up pressure on harvard university. (♪♪) high heat? wet hair? a.k.a the straightener sizzle. ogx weightless repair mist for non-stop damage protection. (♪♪) ogx. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [sigh] ok, here's what you want to do. save hundreds when liberty mutual customizes your car insurance. are you a caddy? i'm a doug. and that's a limu. [limu squawk] ok, i'm gonna putt now... ok, i'm gonna watch you putt.

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>> we were faced with a set of. demands that address some. problems that i and others recognize as real problems, but the means of addressing those. problems is what was so objectionable. >> harvard's president, alan garber, has unwittingly become the face of the current resistance against the trump administration's war on academia. late last night, education secretary linda mcmahon sent the school another threat. this time, she warned the school that if they do not bend to the administration's demands, harvard will no longer receive any new federal grants. federal grants harvard says it needs for cutting edge medical, scientific and technological research. joining us now, new york times reporter jeremy peters, who focuses on the politics of higher education.

jeremy, it's really good to have you. what i found so interesting about doctor alan garber and you write about this in your piece, is that he doesn't disagree with donald trump, that there's a problem on campus. what does he believe is going on? >> well. >> first and foremost. >> he acknowledged the problem. >> with anti-semitism and. >> some of the anti-semitic. >> harassments that students were subjected to. >> during last year's. >> pro gaza encampments. >> garber himself. is an observant jew and. said that he. >> had. >> been targeted. with some of that harassment. >> himself as as. >> president of harvard. >> you know. >> people showing. >> up. >> to. his house with. >> posters of. >> blood and, you. >> know. >> anti-semitic tropes, basically. >> so there is. >> that aspect. of it. >> that's quite personal to him. but also, as somebody who's. been around academia for a very long. >> time and. >> was provost of harvard for, you know, more than a decade before he became president, accidentally, he has seen the culture of higher education

change. and he has seen it, in his words, become less hospitable to diverse viewpoints. to viewpoints. that some students and faculty might say they find harmful or objectionable. >> so that. >> he thinks needs to change. he's he was quite open with us in our interview with at the times. and in other comments. he's made that higher education cannot become conformist. >> it needs to be a place where debate is allowed still. >> exactly. and he thinks that that and, you know, not without. >> some justification here. that's not only happened at harvard, but it's happened across the academy. >> so if he agrees that there is a problem, why does harvard find it and why does he find it so objectionable? the way that the trump administration wants to address it. >> yeah. well. >> let's see where to begin. >> yeah. >> the letter. >> that arrived. with a litany of tasks that harvard had to perform, demands the government

asked of them, was something harvard and alan garber did not expect when they saw the demands were so outrageous, so beyond the pale, and in harvard's telling, so unconstitutional and illegal that it really made the decision quite easy. i mean, you're talking about the department of education asking harvard to submit to an audit of the ideology of its faculty and student body. so if that didn't. >> pass muster. >> if the department of education felt somehow that the audit reflected the faculty was too liberal, which of course it would, then harvard would have to hire enough faculty to balance out the left and right perspectives on the faculty, which, of course, just goes so far beyond what the federal government should be telling really any university. >> so the federal government is trying to use the power that they have, which are federal grants. where where does that money go when it when it flows to harvard? what do they use it for? >> well, they. >> have used it. and universities across the country have used it since world war two

to do everything. from build the atom bomb to cancer research and alzheimer's research. right. like a lot of the modern scientific innovations in medicine technology have come from american research universities. i mean, these have been the world's engine of scientific innovation since world war two. now, that is the story universities want to tell, what they don't want you to tell, and what the trump administration has started to go after is what universities take off the top of that grant. so it's not like that all goes to the lab. a significant chunk of that, sometimes 30, 40% goes to the administration at any university, and they can use that however they want. and they've used it to hire a lot of staff. >> one of the things that i've been confused about is harvard is such a rich institution. the endowment is giant. how many billions of dollars do they have in it? like 40 billion or something? crazy, right? why do they need all of this money from the federal government? if their

endowment is that big, why can't they redirect that funding to research to make sure that this cutting edge stuff, the cancer research, etc, is still happening? >> well, you're talking about billions of dollars. and even for an institution as wealthy as harvard or johns hopkins or brown or these other schools, trump is targeted, that's still an awful lot of money. and this research goes toward not just affecting the people of harvard and making their lives better, their personal health improved. it goes really toward helping the whole world. >> but i guess the endowment does give them some padding and some space to fight the administration. they're going to go to court over this. their argument is this, this this is a violation of the first amendment, a violation of the constitution. >> and that's why there was such an uproar when columbia capitulated. and basically, you know, and columbia is also. >> not quite as rich as harvard, but not not poor. >> not poor. and so why not use that money to fight? i think that's a fair point. and

certainly the backlash that columbia got after basically giving in to most of the demands of columbia, you know, kind of that reflects where people are on this because let's face it, you know, for all the good that this research does academia right now, higher education has a real pr problem. americans in increasing numbers do not see the same type of value they saw in getting a four year college degree, and that. >> is. >> when it saddles you with that much debt. >> when they saddle you with that much debt and you graduate with skills often that are just not marketable in today's job market. >> yeah. jeremy peters, really good to see you. thanks for joining us. thank you. and just a moment ago, the prime minister of canada, mark carney, was asked if he asked donald trump during their private meeting to stop calling canada the 51st state. take a listen. >> oval office would be clear throughout. the president. he understands that we're having a negotiation between sovereign

nations and that we will only pursue and accept a deal that's in the best interests of canada, not just in the short term, but in the medium and long term for canada. >> the idea. >> president is. >> i always appreciate a chance to practice my french. just to underscore how close our relations are, the prime minister was standing on top of the us canadian embassy. you can see it is so close to the capitol that you can see it on top of the roof. all right. coming up next, scott bessent goes toe to toe with an oversight committee member over tariffs. what? one question left the treasury secretary stumbling the treasury secretary stumbling for an answer. [♪♪]

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>> no, no, no. >> ask the answer. the questions. >> i asked. please. i only have five minutes. who pays tariffs. >> sorry. >> well who. >> pays tariffs. sorry. mr. secretary please. excuse me. the question is very simply. >> who pays tariffs. mr. chairman i would. >> like. >> him to answer that question. >> well he wants. >> to answer other questions. >> well, congressman. >> if the. >> congressman if the exporters the. dislike tariffs so much the why wouldn't they. if i think what you're trying to get. >> me to say, did you. >> remember the question. i'm not sure. >> you did. who pays tariffs. >> that they. >> it's a very complicated question. >> reclaiming my time. people pay tariffs. >> right. >> i'm reclaiming my time, mr. secretary. reclaiming my time. >> mr. secretary. >> reclaiming my time. >> you clearly. >> aren't going to answer. i'm not going to waste my time having you go. mr. secretary. reclaiming. mr. chairman, i asked reclaiming my. >> time tariffs. mr. mr. chairman. >> that's going to do it for me >> that's going to do it for me today. deadline. white house

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>> i can feel the winds of change. >> hi there everybody. >> it's 4:00 in new york. america's earth. >> two president getting a. >> big dose of. >> earth one reality. >> this afternoon. >> donald trump's delusions. >> about canada. becoming a. 51st state were met with a hard no. from canadian prime minister mark carney inside the oval office. carney. >> of cours