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so grateful. the beat with ari melber on a monday night starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. >> i watched your very. >> newsworthy interview with james comey. just curious what you thought about his. entire demeanor facing what looks like. allegedly another round of. targeted government abuse for. >> his. free speech, for his. >> public service. and yet i noticed throughout the interview. >> he seemed. >> extraordinarily calm with you as he described. things that. are concerning that are not calming. >> yeah. i mean, look, you know, you've been covering him and his his lawyer, david kelly, is one of his lawyers. i don't know if that's i'm sure that's still his lawyer for years. he is almost like lego batman. you know, there's a scene batman and the joker, like, i'm not you without me. you're not me without you. i mean, for trump, he doesn't seem to know how to orient himself unless he's in some sort of battle with jim comey. and whatever people think of him. and i worked with him. my old

boss was president. jim comey was sometimes at odds with the bush administration, but he is always on the side of doing what he thinks is moral and correct. and for all the digging and all the sleuthing around and all the scrutiny of him, no one has ever found him to have done anything wrong. there's plenty of political critiques. you can critique his leadership. you can critique his decision making. but in terms of his conduct as a public servant for all of the effort, and it's now through two administrations, through, i think, three u.s. attorneys, through a couple fbi directors. no one's ever found anything. and to have the new heads of the fbi talking about him like he just left, he's been gone for eight years. and so any critiques they have, they're they're they're probably more recent too. so they're definitely obsessed with him. i tried to get him to acknowledge that maybe the picture wasn't a great idea, but i think to his point, people in this country having rights to political speech is a thing. so i did get him to say that if this does

intensify, if he does end up under prolonged scrutiny or investigation, he'll he'll talk about it. because i think we've all covered people like chris krebs and miles taylor, who are known to be targeted, or at least they're talking about targeting them criminally, but they haven't had much to say about that yet. so i think if comey talks about the process, that could be yet another public service. >> yeah, i think that's. >> really important. >> so much came. >> out of the. >> interview. >> which is why we're. >> actually i don't know if. >> there's a spoiler alert in news or not. no one ever told me. but spoiler alert. yeah, right. spoiler alert we're playing some of the newsworthy clips coming up because there were key exchanges. and as you say, the public should know and has a right to know. >> if this. >> is the cost and potentially harassing or abusive costs of. >> free speech. >> rights, as you say, whether people. agree with it or not. so we will be playing a bit more of deadline even as deadline wraps up. thank you nicole. >> thank you ari. have a great

show. >> thank you. >> appreciate it. >> our thanks to nicole wallace. >> we begin. >> with that trump crackdown on free speech. really no other way to see it james comey's interview with nicole wallace, which we were just discussing and of course, wrapped up just about half an hour ago, lays out how he says the trump administration is trying to scrutinize what is protected speech or in comey's case, and we're going to show you exactly what he said, speech that in no way had anything to do with, he says, any violent or illegal intent. and yet, the fbi director who. served until trump fired him is now being questioned by the secret service. comey, recounting two investigative interviews he's done with the secret service. he called them professional, but he also completely opposes and debunks what is the reason or predicate for this current probe. the claim that his post of a photograph of seashells spelling out 8647 could be logically construed as a call to violence. >> i thought, what a clever way to express a political view. the

shells were the same color for each of the letters, so different colors for the letters. it took a lot of work. somebody with artistic flair did that, and i have a hard time believing it was anybody with a dark intention. and it certainly was no dark intention on my part and my spouse's part. >> comey, speaking carefully about that exact matter. and he is, of course, not only the former fbi director, he was a longtime lawyer and prosecutor himself. so he understands that when you're in this situation, you do have to address the claim, however thin the facts may be. he also noted that 86 is fairly old slang that usually refers to removing an item or a shop being sold out of it. president trump has not hid his desire to target many perceived opponents with a range of so-called investigations, or threatening arrests, or even indictment and jail, and the evidence here is that this is an effort to crack down on free speech rather than, say, a free

wheeling law enforcement effort to just make people safer. now, if you have selective prosecution, that is more than just someone calling for it, but someone being indicted on, say, targeted grounds, not based on the law. well, that itself can be tossed out or illegal. in comey's case. we have the extra layer here, an effort that would appear to try to turn the very law enforcement leader who stood up to trump memorably into some kind of proclaimed alleged criminal tied to violence through the link of seashells. now, trump already broke the traditional ten year term tradition for fbi directors when he fired comey, and he admitted, quite infamously, that he viewed it as linked to or potential alleged retaliation for comey overseeing probes that touched on trump or his aides. that's the fbi's job, of course, when warranted. trump then appointed a new fbi director to replace him and another one to replace that one when he came back into

office this year. that director now criticizing comey while suggesting that it might be too late to dig into any past alleged conduct from comey's time in office. >> you mentioned comey, strzok and the rest. they've got tv shows, they've got media platforms. they're fine. there's been no accountability. >> well, look, it's a fair criticism. but what i will tell people is we weren't here in the fbi in the last five years when we had statute of limitations that were still in play, where we could have investigated criminal conduct. most of the statute of limitations are five years old, and we will investigate criminal conduct where we find a righteous case to do so. and the law and the facts allow us to. >> so that's your current director talking about the past. but comey's seashell post is brand new. it may sound like quite a thin basis to go after him, to interview him in the secret service, to raise all of this noise factually and legally. but when you see the new trump fbi director, new as

of this year, talking about how some things are too old, this one does provide this new hook for aides to then follow trump's many demands to go after comey. he's long blasted him online. he did it again this weekend while saying there should be investigations of others who've exercised free speech or otherwise opposed trump's election. that includes artists like beyonce or springsteen pushing calls by reposting something that refers to an illegal military tribunal that could be convened for former president obama there. as you can see, the daily beast called it a deranged obama meme tied to the conspiracy group qanon. what you are seeing here, if it was carried out, is not legal. it's not constitutional. you cannot indict or punish free speech because the calls, whether they're carried out or not, are coming from the president, who has his own oath of office to uphold, uphold the constitution, which begins with the first

amendment. and yet the president is calling on his aides or others to basically abuse federal power, go after people for what exactly? for exercising free speech in many cases, which is a right protected by the constitution, which is essential to democracy. there can't be free elections if one side is totally muzzled or afraid to talk, or arrested and prosecuted for exercising free speech. and there are many countries where you can see that decline and how it goes. i mentioned those artists who simply spoke out or endorsed a candidate opposed to the current government. in other cases, you have the claim that there might be some criminal conduct. in other words, the argument would be, well, it's not just free speech. if you think comey was using seashell code, that means whatever trump or the government says it means. now, many have at times minimized donald trump's long established record in this area. you'll hear talk about it's just his tone. or don't take him literally, or he exaggerates. or

that even if it sounds bad, the system will respond and hold him back and hold the line. but as nicolle wallace noted during today's interview, some key parts of the system are now folding and folding worse and differently than in, say, the first term. that includes wall street law firms, some of them surrendering to trump orders, which looked unlawful when issued. and to be clear, since they were issued, some of them have already been paused in court. we haven't yet gotten a final resolution on whether you can target individual companies, bankers or lawyers just because you disagree with them, but most precedents runs against it. i want you to listen right now to what comey said with a sharp warning on that very issue on msnbc today. >> we've seen law firms knuckle under, and that is a very bad thing. they shouldn't have done that. now, in fairness, those firms that people shouldn't think of them as lawyers, they're mostly bankers that

dominate those big firms. they must have never seen a mob movie. because you give the mob a piece of your bar, the first thing they do is bring their friends in to drink for free. then they burn it down for the insurance. they will be sorry they made a deal with this administration. >> now, most people do know exactly that kind of storyline from mob movies or the real mob giving in shows. weakness. weakness invites more abuse and they'll keep roughing you up. that's comey's very specific comparison to what these firms or bankers gave into. now, these targeted institutions have to decide this in real time. some, like harvard, are fighting. and they found pretty quickly the trump administration began to slightly back off. there was some moment where the trump administration said, well, we didn't necessarily mean that it was a mistake in email after picking that fight. others, though, weighing how to fold or settle cases. news organizations also have debated how to handle these trump lawsuits. coming from a very vindictive current,

president comey's warning about the danger of those deals actually echoes in all of these areas, because trump has gotten some news organizations or their parent companies to settle to pay him, but then he just wants more. for example, he is now threatening or vowing to potentially sue abc news for what looks like journalism that reporting on qatar's controversial proposed gift of a $400 million plane. that jet story has gotten a lot of traction, trump says. the network, of course, also he mentions recently did this multimillion dollar settlement with him over other defamation claims. now, abc's reporting on that jet gift idea has proven impactful. trump on the record initially acknowledged the truth of parts of it and defended taking the jet. now then of course, it's become a big scandal. it's cost him republican support and criticism, and maybe he's starting to look at it differently. if he's going after

one of the outlets that reported the thing that he said he wants, he wants the jet, he said he said he'd be stupid not to take it. but the point tonight with the comey of it all is that abc is facing legal heat. over this after settling before, and that's something people warn them about even before comey today. here's an article from a legal publication that suggested then a settlement with trump would set a bad precedent in these uncertain times. and now he's going right back after them, which plays out the comey warning, you settle, you give in, you pay a lot over one thing, but you got to get up the next day and report the news. you may find yourself getting attacked as the one who's more likely to settle or facing that perception. and obviously we are not reporting out that entire case or second guessing every aspect of it. frankly, the details are complex, but the point seems clear. settling with that particular plaintiff did not quiet that plaintiff from going right back on the attack and threatening another lawsuit.

now, trump is doing all this amidst pushback. the supreme court dealt him that big loss on friday, which blocks the claimed war powers for deportations. trump rounded out this weekend with calls for what sound like likely illegal government actions, sharing a post with material that basically talks about an idea that could endanger the lives of the supreme court justices who just curbed his powers. on friday, a seemingly brazen message that comes as he claims that comey's seashells were an improper threat. but it is donald trump sharing this message to many followers, which discusses an idea or a claimed piece of content because he's sharing it right about releasing terrorists near where the supreme court justices live near their homes. now, trump's aides, they know the drill. this does go back to the first term. these public posts, whether they're on his current media platform or back when he used to use twitter more. they're his version of

policy very clearly announcing what he wants to happen. we're seeing attorney general pam bondi oversee a oj that will potentially shed nonpartisan guardrails. the doj has long used a special section to deal with the complex situations where it does investigate or prosecute politicians, called the public integrity section, the post reported. the trump doj is considering basically gutting it, which could cut out the layer of review which tries to guard against that type of prosecution being partizan being politically motivated, which, as i mentioned, is an abuse of power. if that's the goal, rather than following the evidence. and one d.o.j. vet who was ousted from this trump administration telling msnbc that the attorney general basically broke the precedent that doj represents the united states at large in the way she was exhorting the lawyers who worked there. >> we were getting bombarded daily with. these orders from. >> the attorney general. pam

bondi is signing memos to. >> the. >> workforce that are giving us our marching orders, telling us. >> you are all. >> the president's. >> lawyers. >> carry out his his mission. >> now, presidents do set policies and broad priorities for agencies, including the department of justice, but doj career staff are nonpartisan. they have an oath to serve the us in the constitution. they're not solely the president's lawyers. indeed, as i just mentioned, when they get a supreme court order on friday blocking something, well, they know under the law that carries the day. and so they don't just do whatever the president wants. that's pretty basic. now, many administrations do differ in enforcement priorities, right? there are times where one administration might use the doj to go more after marijuana, because it's still a federal offense. and another may say, well, that's actually, for them, a lower priority for federal enforcement or prison than other crimes and investigations. so i want to be clear. there is some

give and take here over the years. but what we're seeing now is trump aides testing whether they can go farther and just do a kind of wholesale abandonment of law enforcement on the things that they just don't care about or want to undercut. that's from laws on equal rights to safety rules. just stop enforcing them writ large. when you look at that up against other areas where trump is under fire, or criticism for self-dealing, for crypto scams, but then they pull back on crypto enforcement. then you look at him calling for these investigations or worse, against people for exercising their free speech, and then d.o.j. in an announcement and something that wasn't a big announcement, but that the post is reporting says, oh, maybe we want freer hand to go after politicians without these layers of review. what you see is this agenda that so many people minimize or said, don't worry about that is actually not just happening. it seems to be a frontline, urgent priority for this trump administration that,

as the former fbi director speaks out and says we need the courts now more than ever. i have our friend of counsel, maya wiley and harvard's daniel ziblatt when we're back together ziblatt when we're back together on this in 90s. sara benzino... brandon coley... jablonski auto body llc... -whoo! -yeah! whoo! what'd she call harper? oh, you mean jablonski auto body llc? we actually sold the twins' naming rights. you know, like stadiums do? kids are so expensive these days. -here he comes! -...oasis breeze tan & spa... -whoo-hoo! -yes! if you need a tan, i'm your man. good doing business with you. or...we can look at some investment options -for you... -works for us. the right money moves aren't as absurd as you think. asthma was making me miss out on things i love, like spending time with my kids. my treatment plan was not doing enough for me. i was concerned about future attacks. so i asked my doctor if we could do more. he ran some tests and recommended adding fasenra. fasenra is an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma.

now i'm breathing better. i haven't had an asthma attack in a year. and i'm back to the things i've missed. like, cheering for my boys. let's go! running my shop, and spending time with friends. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems. serious allergic reactions may occur. get help for swelling of your face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens or you have a parasitic infection. headache and sore throat may occur. haven't you missed enough? be your own best advocate. ask your doctor about fasenra. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. joined by maya wiley, a former federal prosecutor and president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights, and harvard professor daniel ziblatt, coauthor of several books on

authoritarianism. an expert in this field and some of the issues we've been discussing. maya, let's play a little bit more of what we heard from james comey and his interview with nicole. >> does it make you scared? >> no. >> why? >> well, it's not my first rodeo. one of the real problems we have in this country right now is the use of the president's power, aiming at individuals who don't have my background or experience. that independent judiciary is alive and well and gives me great comfort. our saving grace. we still have a leg on our stool. if we lose that, i don't know where we are, but we have judges appointed by all different presidents of different parties who believe in the rule of law. >> maya, your thoughts tonight on all of this? >> well, first. >> of all. >> i am very. >> grateful that james comey made the point. that the people who need protection are the. >> people who are. >> not the powerful. he's exactly right. >> one of the things we've seen this administration. >> do is. start with the

powerful. because they want to. >> gain the capitulation. >> of everybody else. >> that's why you start with a columbia university and. >> a harvard. that's why you go to. >> the. >> big law firms first, making sure you can. knock down all the others because you're getting them to be afraid. >> that's why we're already. >> seeing local community. >> based groups being threatened with investigation for doing things like know your rights. and we've already seen in the news and. already found, thankfully, more and more americans being concerned about what it means to weaponize our immigration laws to crack down on a öztürk, the student from tufts who was kidnaped off the streets because of an opinion editorial she wrote about human rights for palestinians. that is first amendment free speech. so what this administration has done, which which james comey is dead right about, is it has used its power to first gut the

government's power to be nonpartisan, to actually be a place where civil servants serve the public. but doing that is about then weaponizing it and using that power to make everybody afraid to simply participate in their country, in our decisions from who we get to vote for and how we vote to whether or not we can have opinion pieces. and it's affecting not just the big names, not just the folks that have public profiles, but already it's basically targeting people who are doing community based work. and that is extremely dangerous for everyone. and his last point is also important, which is one of our last guardrails is the courts. but i just want to say this even those judges, including trump appointed judges, have been verbally and practically attacked by this administration. so the true

guardrail is we the people is coalitions like the leadership conference on civil and human rights, where we won't be silent even when they're trying to make us fearful because we do have less power than the powerful. and so james comey is right, and he's right to have said what he said about we having power and we need to use it. >> yeah, i mean, that's powerful, especially, as you say, because of the need to address it at a grassroots level and for people to understand there's another view out there. in fact, it might be what most people feel. still, even in these divided times. professor, you spoke out about this. you're at the epicenter of it now, whether harvard likes it or not. and you coauthored a piece that says autocrats rarely entrench themselves in power through force alone. they're enabled by accommodation and inaction of those who might have resisted. appeasement, as churchill warned, is like feeding a crocodile and hoping to be the last one eaten. your view of

that, in light of what james comey said today and what i showed others had warned and predicted prior to this, which is that the universities, law firms or you name it, who settle aren't exactly getting out of the way. they're inviting more pressure. >> you know, there's sometimes this idea that if somebody is elected into the presidency democratically, that that means everything they do is democratic. no presidents can raise tax rates. if they get congress to go along with them, they can cut medicare if they want all that. you may not like that stuff, but that's legitimate policy differences. there are certain things that politicians. >> can't do. >> political leaders can't do and say they are committed to democracy. and among those things are, number one, trying to capture the referees of the state, the neutral referees of the state, the justice department, the fbi, the irs, and using them for partizan ends. number two, what you can't do is then go after your political opponents, your critics, those who criticize you, who are just exercising their basic civil liberties and civil rights. number three, what

you can't do is you can't try to tilt the playing field against your opposition. so go after, let's say, you know, cutting, cutting funding or investigating, let's say actblue, an organization that funds democratic candidates. and the fourth thing that you can't do, the fourth and final thing you can't do is try to circumvent the constitutional order. if you live in a democracy, you have to abide by the constitution. you can't defy court orders. you can't try to circumvent the checks and balances when you do those things, even if you've been elected, you're not acting in democratic fashion. you can do those things, but you can't claim to be a democrat. and i think that's what we're witnessing right now. >> yeah. >> on the pressure on the news, which i mentioned. and a lot of these are companies. so there's higher level folks who are going to make decisions. i briefly want to play what john oliver said. take a listen to john oliver. >> don't comply. >> with trump's. ridiculous demands prematurely. >> i know he and the fcc are making a lot of intimidating sounding threats. >> and. >> fighting them. >> will undeniably take. >> time. >> effort, and money, but i'd

argue it is very much worth it, especially when the likeliest outcome is. that you win definitively. >> how about that, professor? >> yeah. that's absolutely right. i mean, one of the things. >> that's so challenging when you face this kind of onslaught. >> is for. >> each individual person or organization, it's much easier just to. comply and to kind of not put your head above the ground because there's a cost to that. and that's a kind of test of whether or not you're living in a full democracy, because in a full democracy, you should be able to criticize the government and not suffer a major cost. you know, harvard has just had to pay $2 billion in effect, lost $2 billion in research funding for being critical in effect, or being perceived as an opponent of the. >> perceived as critical. yeah. >> perceived. absolutely. and so the so the point is you have to so there's a there's a price to be paid. and if there's a price to be paid, it's very tempting to keep your head down. and so that's why it's really critical to kind of share the cost of this. and that's why it's so important that not just a single

individuals get up, not just single organizations, but a broad swath of civil society. civic leaders all need to collectively speak out and to say there are certain red lines that can't be crossed and if they're crossed, will condemn this or criticize it. and by sharing the cost, it makes it less costly for any individual or any individual organization. >> yeah. professor maya wiley, thanks to both of you. later in the hour, we have a veteran former fda fda chief sounding the alarm on some of these health issues. today. we also have an exclusive, an interview on the cost of trump's trade war with a billionaire wall street veteran who has not exactly been a fan of trump. >> i'm not going to vote for trump. >> trump is a disgusting human being. he belongs in. >> jail. >> in my opinion. >> now, now that. >> i'm not affiliated with. >(fisher investments) at fisher >investments, we may look like other money managers, but we're different. (other money manager) how so? (fisher investments) we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in our clients' best interest. so we don't sell any commission-based products. (other money manager) then how do you make money? (fisher investments) we have a simple management fee, structured so we do better when our clients do better.

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the way i approach work post fatherhood, has really trying to understand the generation that we're building devices for. here in the comcast family, we're building an integrated in-home wifi solution for millions of families like my own. in the average household, there are dozens of connected devices. connectivity is a big part of my boys' lives. it brings people together in meaningful ways. chef. brasa for the chef in all of us. >> we are deep into a trade war that's not working. and donald trump, after a lot of bluster and some backtracking, is facing

certain facts, including who pays the price. trump did go on offense against walmart this weekend about how they should just eat his tariffs, because the company warned about price hikes. that kind of gives the game away. trump is, in a way, fact checking how these tariffs work because there's a cost. and i guess if he can't get walmart to do what he wants, then the cost that he admits exists will be paid by you, which is not the foreign countries he promised. >> a tariff is a tax. >> on a. >> foreign country. >> that's the way it is, whether you like it or not. a lot of. >> people like to say, oh, it's a tax. >> on us. >> no, no, no. it's a tax on a. >> foreign country. >> it's a tax on. >> a country that's. ripping us. >> off and. stealing our jobs. >> and it's. >> a tax. >> that doesn't affect our country. >> doesn't affect our country. that's how it was sold. and international trade doesn't

quite work that way. in fairness it would be and sounds like a nice argument if it were true that you could magically just tax other countries and not have to deal with their response or the other costs. it's a reminder that depending on how informed you are, if you went to that rally and didn't know much and said it sounds like a good idea, right, that wouldn't be necessarily on you. you were pitched this idea. now we're dealing with the reality. here's trump's own treasury secretary. >> so walmart will be absorbing some of the tariffs. some may get passed on to consumers. >> that to american consumers. if you're watching this inside the us, that's trump's treasury secretary. the gap between the campaign spin and then the governing spin and then the hold on we're going to get deals has now collapsed into fact check. true. trump's own top person on this policy saying you're going to pay for it. quote tariffs

trigger price hikes, shoes, clothing and toys. getting more expensive this summer is the usa today headline, and the head of the country's largest port is here talking about the impact. >> over on the cargo. >> side of the business. >> the impact. >> is real and. >> playing out just. >> in front of. >> us like an industrial. theater concept, as we had been talking about volume in the first week of may. >> here at the port of. >> la was down more than 30% on the import side. >> of our ledger. >> sometimes it can sound like a different language, but the bottom line is clear things are going up that you don't want to like. prices and things are going down that you don't want to like well priced foreign inventories. as the trade war with certain countries gets worse, this is a time where you really have to consult the facts and the numbers that you might not. usually, because no other president in the modern era has sparked a trade war like this. and that means that you have the journalists, you have the analysts, but you also have to

go to the people who do international business. and we have one of the most renowned in the country coming up, the billionaire investor who joined me once for our summit series, leon cooperman, is returning to what i can tell you, he says, is bad trade policy from trump when we come back. >> taking the private sector. >> out of government, you. >> do the country a big favor. you're too damn divisive. i would never vote for him under would never vote for him under —hi! —hi! ♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. ♪♪ with the chase mobile app, things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily and send money quickly. [coins clinking] ♪♪ that's convenience from chase. make more of what's yours. i forgot to wash my work shirt. just wear it again! i added unstopables with odor blocker and it keeps our clothes fresh all day! [sniff] ooo,

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>> i can. feel the. winds of change.

>> the united states has been absorbing the cost of trump's ongoing trade war. it's been deemed destructive and unwise by economists, really, across the spectrum, many political issues split by ideology. we know that. but finance can be a bit different, especially for the people who focus on numbers. a lot of business leaders have spoken out against these tariffs, and that's regardless of their votes. in last year's campaign, we've seen the leaders of finance and investing have also lived through some of these experiments before. warren buffett recently warning against escalating trade wars and a wall street and goldman sachs veteran billionaire investor leon cooperman is someone that often is called upon in financial crises to make sense of things. he also, like buffett, joined that giving pledge, donating back most of his wealth so he knows finance from making a billion, but also isn't hoarding it. he made that money on his own after growing up working class in brooklyn, and launched one of the top hedge funds, he's deployed his influence not only

through money, which he's very blunt about how it works and how to spend it, but also a megaphone type platform, meetings with some of the elite sort of folks in finance and sometimes in politics. and he joined us once for our summit series. >> i started my career in wall street with a six month old child, a negative net. >> worth. >> no money in the bank, a student loan to repay. which is why i had a negative net worth. i made a lot of money and i'm giving it all back. >> to the system. >> there you have it. a negative net worth is one way to say that you are well broke or in debt. he's going to join us here momentarily on the beat. this is his first interview with us since trump, of course, has taken office. again. here's what he told us about trump in 2023. >> trump is disgusting. >> human being. >> he belongs in jail, in. my opinion. stick in the private sector. get out. >> of government. >> you do the country a big favor. you're too damn divisive. i would never vote for him under any circumstances. >> celebrated billionaire investor leon cooperman joins us now. welcome back.

>> nice to be back with you, ari. >> you know your way around these issues in in plain english, which is how i got to know you. you you speak clearly. are these tariffs working? are they good for the american economy? >> no, they're. >> bad for the economy. >> they're bad for the world. creates tremendous amount of uncertainty. it adds to inflation. it's going to slow growth. >> it's made the world. >> prosperous as global trade. it's a negative for global trade. so i have to say i side with those. >> that are. >> negative on tariffs. now i the president is a very confusing image. i think he's doing the right things in terms of dealing with the debt. we're heading to a crisis, but he's doing it the wrong way. >> i'm going to put the markets up on the screen because you mentioned about trump trying to manage the economy. this is the dow jones down over 7% from inauguration. the top 500 companies, s&p also down just over 7%. for those of us who

aren't experts in this, who don't trade the way you did for many years, how do you make sense of this signal to noise? what portion of this do you think is from trump sort of interceding almost big government tariffs being a drag on the market? what portion is sort of unknowable or other stuff? >> well, bear markets tend to last at least a year, and recessions and bear markets and bear markets, this kind of recession, the best way to say it. so i think that we're in a bear market, and i think that that final bottom could be as much as 25% below the peak, which would be well below where we are currently. and the best sign that the market has adjusted to the new reality. and there's no signs that's going on right now, is when stocks go, don't go down on bad news. you know market's top on good news and markets bottom on bad news. when you get the bad news coming out and stocks don't go down that's a sign of a bottom. and we have classic signs of a top

in february everybody was bullish in february. and people are still bullish. and they're very complacent. they're willing to stick with the market. they're saying that the best way to build wealth, which i agree with, is through stocks. but you've got to be attuned. you got to avoid the big shrinkage of net worth, because every 4 or 5 years you have a bear market. we're overdue. >> let me ask you on that. you think i mean, the markets work with whatever you want to call it, a crowd mentality. you think the crowd, the zeitgeist is still overly positive, missing that there could be more of a drop. yes. while i have you, i want to show you something. i'm sure you, you know andrew ross sorkin from our sort of sister channel cnbc. and he said something that you'd expect more in other, more autocratic countries, but not in the united states. but he said, the way that president trump has been going after people that he disagrees with, allegedly abusing power and executive orders to target wall street law firms and others, he says it's actually made ceos self-censor

the chilling effect. take a listen. >> a ceo said. >> to me. >> last week. >> i don't want them. >> to harvard me. >> there. has been. >> a little. >> bit, if. >> not. >> more than a little. >> bit. >> of a. silencing scenario. >> that's taking place here. >> when you. >> think about the way the business community feels right now about. >> what's happening. >> i'm really curious because, you know, these folks, you're in the rooms, you're in the off the record conversations. do you think that people are self silencing? even some of them, of course, lean right or might have good relationships with the trump republican party? and is that a problem? go ahead. >> i think so. i think that his popularity and his style has intimidated a lot of people, and i don't think that's good. now i'm a centrist, so by nature i think the radical right and the radical left are screwing up the country. so i'm looking for centrist. >> stark warnings from someone who's, like i said, been in and around this. i've gotten to meet you before. i appreciate you coming back. leon cooperman, thanks for joining.

>> thank you very much. appreciate it. >> our thanks to leon. you can check out the full interview at msnbc.com for our youtube page and other highlights from tonight. when we come back, the backlash as republicans want to backlash as republicans want to gut health care for millions. if you have heart failure or chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life because there are places you'd like to be. ♪♪ serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine and bacterial infection between the anus and genitals, both which may be fatal, severe allergic reactions, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. stop taking and tell your doctor right away if you have nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, rash, swelling, trouble breathing or swallowing. tell your doctor about lightheadedness, weakness, fever, pain, tenderness, redness or swelling between the anus and genitals. ask your doctor about farxiga today.

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people off insurance. they would currently have the budget coming out of committee last night, and the full house will vote on this probably this week. republicans want to basically cut more taxes, which benefits the wealthy the most, and they pay for this more or less by removing people from medicaid coverage and also adding other requirements, which we've been reporting would have the practical effect of making it harder for people on the lower side of income to have health care. republican speaker discussing it. democrats warning about the impact. >> work requirements is a no brainer. >> it's like a 90%. >> issue on polling. able bodied adults who can work should work. >> if you. >> take all. >> of those people who are able bodied, if you take even the most wildly high projections of fraud, they wouldn't factor even 10% of the cost. >> of the cuts. >> that republicans are pushing through. upwards of 14 million people losing their health coverage because of this. that would be the greatest loss of

health care coverage in american history. >> as for government cuts, they're going after the food and drug administration, which could endanger food safety at a time where health care itself raises the stakes. if you're not on it. we have a very special guest. doctor david kessler was the fda commissioner serving under both the bush and clinton administrations. and his new book is diet, drugs, and dopamine the new science of achieving a healthy weight, something he's also been writing about for the guardian. and we see that piece of cake. you know, the book covers more appetizing than you might have meant. welcome. >> thanks so much for having me, ari. >> great to have you. let's start with the republican budget, which came right out last night. more details. as mentioned, what is the long term cost to the united states to have people losing insurance like that? and in a sense, does the public end up holding the bag anyway? >> absolutely. you know, there is so many. >> things that. >> are on the.

>> horizon that are. available to. >> be able to allow. >> us to reclaim our health. >> and leave. >> live lives and thrive. >> and to deny. >> people that. >> at such an. >> optimistic time. >> it's just. >> it's very hard. >> when you. >> think about it. >> we talk and hear a lot about politics these days, but you're also writing about other shifts. i don't know if you would call them cultural or just how we live, but what do you want people to know about choices we can make before you end up in the hospital? and why do you think that in certain measures, america has slid both compared to the past and to other similar rich countries? >> when i left, i ran. warp speed, co-lead warp speed, and it was an intense period. covid was a very hard period. >> for all of us. >> i was. >> some. >> 40 pounds heavier. >> this is. >> not about weight. >> this is about. visceral fat. you know that. >> fat in our abdomen, that. beer belly, it's. metabolically

active. >> it. >> it's as big as tobacco. >> if we could. >> help people. >> and we always thought it. >> was a. >> question of willpower. >> it's not. it's about biology. >> but if we can give them the tools that we now have those tools available and. give them good care, you can't. >> just. >> you know. >> do this online overnight. there's no magic pills. but giving people good care, there's a real opportunity. >> to reclaim. >> our health. >> when you talk about sort of the temptation or the dopamine, what are you getting at there and how much of that is we live in such saturated information environments, from our phones to media. here we are, of course, television. people are getting a lot of messages that are encouraging pretty unhealthy behavior. no. >> we took fat and sugar. fat, sugar and salt, put it. >> on every. >> corner. >> made it available. >> 24 over seven. it's as if we're living in a food circus. it's constantly triggering our

brains. these are the addictive circuits. i know that word. a lot of people think that's for the week, that's for the downtrodden. but those circuits are within within all of us. and that's why that mystery of weight. why did i always regain my weight? i didn't understand that. that's why i wrote the book diet, drugs and dopamine. >> so what is the reason? >> i mean, it's not very different than cigarettes. what's how somebody they used to smoke. my guess is if i were born, you know, two, three decades earlier, i would have probably been a smoker. people use both cigarettes and food to calm, to stimulate, you know, if it's 10:00 at night and i need to work another two, three hours and i need to increase my focus, what am i going to do? i'm going to think about going down to that refrigerator. so there are circuits in the brain that get triggers. there's that craving. that's that relapse. it's not about willpower, it's biology. and now finally, we have tools,

not panaceas, but we have drugs that can help those cravings, that food noise. yeah. >> yeah, it's super interesting, which is why we wanted to take a minute against the budget fight and everything else to hear from you. doctor kessler. the book diet, drugs and dopamine is out diet, drugs and dopamine is out now. we will be right back. [♪♪] tired of struggling with impossible messes in your tub and shower? some cleaning sprays only target the top layer of grime, making it difficult to remove built-up layers. switch to mr. clean foaming bath magic eraser. simply add water to activate. magic eraser has the cleaning power of dawn and the scrubbing power of an eraser; to effortlessly cut through 100% of the built-up soap scum and grime that some sprays leave behind. and because it cleans so well, you can replace multiple cleaning products. switch to mr. clean foaming bath magic eraser. move you make. every day you move you make. every day you wake. make no mistake, w

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this with the available facts. >> this next domino is getting set up to fall. >> we are seeing an unprecedented assault on. our democratic order. >> it's not a normal presidency. it's not a normal reality we are all living in. >> we have never. >> seen anything like it. >> our mission. >> to bring you the truth is. >> more. >> important. >> than ever.s know best grasa.

available now at graco. >> to connect with us at the beach, you can go to ari melber on any social media or type in ari melber.com, and you can connect with me and sign up for my free newsletter at ari melber.com anytime you want. that does it for us. the weeknight starts now. hi, everyone. >> hey, >> ari. >> thank you so much. >> have a good night. >> and good. >> evening to you all. >> and welcome to the weeknight. i'm sam sanders townsend with alicia menendez and michael steele. donald trump finally. admits americans. >> will pay for his tariffs. then republicans move on their

budgetil