short time in the oval office, potentially to make this announcement and also potentially answer any more questions. there's been no shortage of questions today. and another busy day here in dc. katie. >> lots of topics. gabe gutierrez, thank you very much. and the next hour of katy tur report starts right now. >> the only criticism will pushback i've seen is about people that were convicted or involved in incidents where they were violent with police. why did they get a pardon? >> a number of reasons. number one, they were in there for three and a half years, a long time, and in many solitary confinement, treated like nobody's ever been treated so badly. they were treated like the worst criminals in history. and you know what they were there for? they were protesting the vote because they knew the election was rigged and they were protesting the vote, and

that you should be allowed to protest a vote. you should be allowed to, you know, the day when the day comes. >> you shouldn't be able to invade the capital. >> ready? most of the people were absolutely innocent. okay. but forgetting all about that, these people have served horribly a long time. it would be very, very cumbersome to go and look, you know, how many people are talking about 1500 people? almost all of them are should not have been this should not have happened. and the other thing is, is some of those people with the police. true. but they were very minor incidents. okay. you know, they get built up by that. a couple of fake guys that are on cnn all the time. nobody watches. they were very minor incidents and it was time. >> good to be back with you. i'm katy tur. that was donald trump justifying himself for pardoning all of the january 6th rioters, including the violent ones. folks like all of these guys,

the ones who physically beat up officers at the capitol as well by, for example, crushing one in a doorway by covering another officer with bear spray for doing his job by, according to one indictment, using hands and feet, flagpoles, crutches, pepper spray, broken pieces of furniture and anything else one rider could get his hands on as weapons against multiple police officers. if those are minor incidents, what is this? watch right there for the woman in red? that is congresswoman lamonica mciver. in a video released by dhs, she says she was trying to get into an ice facility, which she can legally enter anytime she wants for the purpose of conducting oversight. the department of justice says she was forcing her way in. and that push right there is her assaulting a police officer, and

now they've charged her for assaulting two. by the way, quote, no one is above the law, but is it that simple? joining us now, new york times chief white house correspondent and msnbc political analyst, peter baker, loyola law school professor and msnbc columnist jessica levinson, princeton university professor of history and public affairs julian zelizer, welcome to the show and back with us, msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. so, lisa, first off, let us let us lay the groundwork here. tell us what is happening in that video. >> in that video, katie, what we're seeing is lamonica mciver, according to the indictment, trying to make her way to mayor ras baraka, who was imminently facing arrest by federal officials. and you can see that there are a couple of instances where she appears to have her hands on federal law enforcement officers. what is also clear from the video is that there is someone behind her pushing her. during at least one portion of it. there is another moment,

though, where you can see her lash out with one of her hands and appear to strike a law enforcement officer. the complaint that was filed yesterday and unsealed today, has some still photographs where the government alleges that she is physically attacking each of two federal law enforcement officers. but people are coming in and out of the frames. it is unclear who the suited gentleman behind her pushing her is. i expect that you'll hear from her defense lawyers that she was being jostled in a scrum that got out of control when there was confusion about what mayor baraka was doing there. and as the feds were trying to arrest him for being in the vicinity of this federal ice detention facility, this is all occurring, by the way, in what looks to be a parking lot. and as they are going both in and out of a gate, blocking the parking lot off from the street. >> so mciver's legal team says she has every right to be there. they said, as you were arguing that, arguing that they would argue that she was enveloped by

a scrum. she was trying to protect herself. and she's also saying her team, that she got a tour from agents afterwards, that they did not perceive her as a threat. she's calling this political intimidation. peter. i, i purposely put up the two images, the january 6th rioters that donald trump pardoned and diminished all their actions as minor again. he even pardoned the ones who were very violent, the ones who got charged and then convicted in a court of law. a jury of their peers found them guilty and then sentenced to many years behind bars, in some cases 20 years, he said. all of them are free. pardon them all or commuted their sentences. and then you have this administration going after this. congresswoman, she calls it political intimidation. >> yeah. i mean, i think the thing about the january. >> 6th pardons is. >> it was a sweeping pardon. >> across the board. >> right. except for a handful of people who got their sentences commuted. everybody

who was charged or even might be charged was given a pardon, regardless of the specific circumstances of their actions. this wasn't like a situation where trump's people came in and investigated and determined that this person was overcharged, or this person was over sentenced. this person really didn't do that much, or this person was just jostling in. a situation like you see there on the screen happened at the ice facility. they just simply said across the board, everybody there, no matter how serious or severe their crimes, would get clemency. that's very different than saying some of them were mistreated or unfairly treated in this case. obviously, a lot of people are going to make this comparison. a lot of people are going to say, well, it's okay to assault a police officer with a flagpole and beat them and squeeze them in a door, as you showed, if you are on trump's side. but in a situation like this where it does seem like she touches them, i don't know if that counts as assault, but you're not supposed to touch officer, i suppose. and i suppose there might be an argument to be made there. clearly she hasn't beaten anybody with a flagpole or, you know, hurt them in any

significant way. and so, of course, people are going to make that comparison and ask whether justice here is blind or whether justice is partizan. >> yeah. and so let's let's zoom out and let's take this in a vacuum. if, if this were a solo instance, if we didn't have all the context around it, we didn't have the january 6th. if it wasn't donald trump, if this video alone were out there and you knew nothing about the case and the prosecutors knew nothing about just just take it in a vacuum, jessica, in a vacuum, would she be charged with assaulting an officer? two officers for this video. >> it's a great question because we do really need to take every case separately. and of course, the decision as to whether or not to pardon is different as to the decision of whether or not to bring charges. i think what i would offer is that it's highly unusual for the federal government to bring a claim against a sitting member of

congress. this type of claim, in particular, in addition to the fact and i think lisa laid this out so clearly, as she always does, that it's not entirely clear. it does look like she's being jostled. it also does look like she touches federal law enforcement and she's not supposed to. but i think your question is exactly right. which is would charges otherwise have been brought? would she otherwise have faced arrest? and i frankly, you know, my reaction is, no, i don't think so. i don't think we've been here before. i don't think that we have seen the department of justice. look at somebody whose behavior is equivalent to the behavior we're seeing on the screen there when they are a sitting member of congress. >> so, julianne, let's put it back into the context of the moment, because we're not living in a vacuum. help us understand how you see this in the context of donald trump. >> well, for me. >> it's wondering. >> why a sitting member. >> of. >> congress in new jersey in her state is being handled that way

to begin with. it's unusual. >> why she just can't walk in the front door because she. >> she has she has the ability to conduct oversight. she has the ability to be there. and certainly there's diplomatic ways to handle this. i mean, the department of justice usually has gotten involved with members of congress on issues of bribery, scandal, corruption. not not this and certainly not following up that way. so it's hard not to see this as part of the battle over the balance of power that's taking place in the country right now. >> how sensitive is it for the department of justice to indict, to charge a member of congress? what's the usual process? >> again, very sensitive. usually you have a situation like abscam in 1980, which was a big scandal involving videotaped attempts of bribery and corruption. the department of justice is very hesitant, usually, to get involved in because. >> it's going to be seen as overtly. >> it's seen as overtly political, it's seen as overreach. it has. >> to be pretty. >> clear, it has to be pretty clear, and it's usually some

kind of crime. not what we're talking about, at least from what we can see in this video. >> where do you think we are in terms of like on the stepping stones to donald trump just co-opting all forms of government and, and really going after his political enemies? it's hard to tell. you know, like frogs in boiling water. it's hard to tell where we are. do you have a good sense? >> i don't have a good sense. he's not co-opting. i mean, members of his own party are accepting this. so this is a proactive decision by members of the republican party in congress to sit quietly. that said, yes, this is an imperial presidency. that's what arthur schlesinger called it in 1973 and couldn't have imagined, i think even with richard nixon, what's going on right now? so it's a danger zone. and i think that's why members of congress, certainly many democrats, are concerned about where this is going. >> jessica, there was reporting from the washington post the other day about the public integrity unit being disbanded or severely hampered. would that be a unit that would normally be consulted in a case like this?

>> i don't know, but i know it's not just the public integrity unit. i know that we also need to focus on the entire civil rights division, and we need to focus more broadly on the career members of the department of justice, the career civil servants who generally stay from administration to administration, and many of whom have either left of their own volition or otherwise. and i think that should be concerning, because we want a professional force, particularly in the department of justice, to make these assessments, as we've been talking about when it comes to charging a sitting member of congress. part of the reason why we're so reticent is because it looks political. we don't want just political loyalists making these calls. we want a professional workforce in the department of justice making these calls. >> lisa. >> well, i was going to say that according to the justice manual, which is essentially the bible by which federal prosecutors live, not only do you have to consult with the public integrity unit before you charge

a sitting member of congress, they have to approve of those charges. and the reason is because this is as politically sensitive sensitive as it is, you want to ensure that folks out in the 94 different u.s. attorney's offices are not going rogue by themselves, are not pursuing political prosecutions. but there's a check against that awesome prosecutorial power. we asked the justice department last night, can they confirm that that's still the policy? through a spokesperson, they said back to me, various provisions in the justice manual are under review. no final decisions have been made yet, but our goal is to ensure that people out in the field have the same accountability as people at main justice, that we're decentralizing authority, that version of decentralizing authority from main justice could be another person's description, just a way of absolving them of any accountability and allowing people like alina habba to do what they want, when they want, without any checks. >> peter. donald trump and his allies spent so much time saying that the last administration was

weaponizing the department of justice, spent so much time during the first administration saying congress was weaponizing their powers for, you know, ugly political ends because they didn't like him. that's why they were impeaching him. none of this was fair. and they're using that to justify a lot of their behavior now, or they're trying to claim that their behavior now is not politically motivated. like they argue. the last administration was, i had a moment ago up on the screen, a graphic showing a number of the political moves this administration has made to intimidate or to imprison critics or people whose speech they don't like. you have the mahmoud khalil case in columbia. you have the law firms that have been targeted. you have security clearances being stripped for a number of former officials that that spoke out against donald trump or spoke out against donald trump's actions. i'm thinking of chris krebs, who said that the 2020 election was unfair. i guess when you put

this all together, how do you see this presidency? you know, four months in? >> yeah, i think the krebs example is a great one, because in fact, you saw there the president of united states signed an executive order directing the department of justice to criminally investigate a former official of his own administration. for what reason? because he refused to go along with trump's lie about the 2020 election. he refused to say the 2020 election was rigged, when in fact, it wasn't. so in trump's mind. in effect, he is arguing that it is a crime to deny that he, you know, lost the election in 2020 to assert that he actually lost the election fairly in 2020, which is an extraordinary thing. and you put up a lot of examples there on the screen. i think it's important to look at this holistically and collectively. right. every administration obviously gets caught up in prosecutions that are seen as political or could be seen as weaponizing or what have you. what's interesting is every administration i've ever covered had moments where they went

after people of their own party, or people who were allies of the president, even though that was very uncomfortable sometimes through a special counsel, the biden administration, for all of the heat they got from republicans for weaponizing justice, unquote, also prosecuted the son of the president of the united states, also prosecuted a democratic senator, also prosecuted the democratic mayor of new york. i haven't seen this justice department or this administration prosecuting anybody who would be seen as an ally or republican member of trump's circle. so i think that the question is, does it look like you're going after only one side? because at the moment that's the impression is given. and because you're right to say that he gives two different messages. on the one hand, they say, oh, we're returning justice to being blind. on the other hand, he says, i'm out for retribution. >> yeah. and the people who went against me deserve it. peter baker, jessica levinson and lisa rubin and julian, thank you very much. most of you are coming back, lisa. i'm saying goodbye to you. congresswoman lamonica mciver will join jen psaki tonight. tune in at 9 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc for that. and still ahead. we're not

even close to the midterms yet, but democrats are already looking ahead to 2028. who is in the crowded field to contend for the nomination? first, though, we have seen their aggressive tactics play out across the country. could you be their next country. could you be their next target? we are back in 90s. upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast. to enjoy. >> thanks to our new sunsetter retractable awning, we can select full sun or instant shade. >> it's 20. degrees cooler. >> and you get. >> protection from harmful rays and sun glare. >> call now for this free awning. idea kit packed with great awning solutions. plus, get this $200 discount certificate to get your sunsetter for as little as $799.

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don't say a word. you do not have to. that is what the former president of the american immigration lawyers association advises you to do if you're approached by immigration officers. yes, you, as philip bump puts it in his latest headline, because it's not just migrants who are vulnerable nowadays. with the trump administration upending due process. u.s. citizens are vulnerable as well. joining us now, the washington post national columnist philip bump, julian zelizer and jessica levinson are still with us as well. all right, so, phil, you did a lot of reporting on this. explain this idea that it's not just if you are here without papers, it is everybody. >> yeah. i mean, fundamentally, people. >> understand what ice does as being going out and arresting immigrants who are in the country when. >> they're not allowed. >> to be. that's that's how we understand it. >> the challenges. >> during the trump. >> administration. >> we. >> have seen it be the case that the administration doesn't allow people who have been arrested to prove that they deserve to be arrested, to prove either that they committed some sort of

crime, or even to prove that they are immigrants who are in the country without the proper status as such. if you happen to be present at at a moment when ice is conducting a raid, or if they're targeting you specifically and you are arrested, it may not be the case that you get to plead your argument to a judge that you get to say, hey, actually, i am a natural born citizen, or i am a legal permanent resident of the united states. it may be the case instead that you are simply taken away and that you are in the case as as we saw in march that you were sent to a foreign prison in el salvador, like the normal standard that we assume apply particularly to us citizens simply is no longer reliable in this administration. so i spoke with david leopold, the gentleman you referred to, and just got an articulation. here's what everyone should be aware of. your rights are in the in the case that you are actually encountered by by ice on the street. >> phil, do you find it insane that you've had to do this reporting? did you ever expect to have to do this sort of

reporting? >> i think a year ago i would have thought it was insane, but now i don't, right? i mean, it goes to the conversation you were just having. this is an entirely different situation in the united states now. i mean, look, it is absolutely not the case that we are seeing american citizens snatched up off the street and sent to el salvador. we have not seen that happen en masse in any way that we need to worry about this being an imminent threat, right. but it is the case that it exists as a threat, which is unusual. and we saw the case of the tufts university student who was taken off the street, who was here on a student visa for nothing more than having written or co-written a fairly mild op ed for her student newspaper. and she she had to she was able, happily, to be able to actually get a court hearing and make her case. but that's not necessarily always going to be available to people. and this is just where we happen to be. >> there's a quote in this, julian, i'll give this to you. is that a guy with a gun or an ice officer? and it's scary because when you're looking we just were playing the images of one of the ice detentions. this

was up in up in boston. and you feel bad for this woman because all of a sudden you're approached by people in plain clothes wearing masks. are they kidnaping you or are they officials? i was talking to a former dhs official just the other day, asking them whether they need to be. their faces need to be covered. and while the official, the former official sympathized with the officers, who they said are embarrassed about what they are doing, there are some of them who feel like, i don't want to show my face, because i am embarrassed that i am being ordered to go out and make these arrests. but that person also expressed discomfort and understood that, you know, listen, it's not it's a scary thing. how do you tell? >> well, that's a problem. i mean, when due process and the rule of law falls away, it is frightening. that is a core part of our system and it creates fear. i mean, if you look back at other periods, like the palmer raids after world war

one, where there were deportations or the red scare in the 50s, mccarthyism. it's a few people whose lives are ruined or who are arrested, but it creates fear all over society. >> and compare this moment. to mccarthyism. because i wondered, i've wondered that. i mean, i sat in the play for good night and good luck. and i wondered, is this is this a. are we living in a similar moment? >> yeah, i think i think it's fair to say if some of this is coming from the white house, that's a pretty big step. meaning that's not what happened in the 1950s. that was coming from a member of congress, senator joe mccarthy. so i do think and the arms of the executive branch are much stronger. and obviously, if the person doing the arrest himself or herself is uncomfortable doing it, that speaks volumes about the legitimacy of the process, and it undermines the legitimacy for many people of what the administration is doing. >> yeah. and, jessica, part of this is the lack of recourse, you know, and what we're seeing with the people that have been

deported to scott is they can't get out. and because the el salvadorian government is unwilling to cooperate or there's some, you know, discussions between them and the trump administration about, you know, we don't really want this person, so don't give them up. who knows what's happening. you don't have any way to get out. you can't even contact your lawyer. although that might be changing. so, i mean, it feels like the only way to stop your deportation from happening is to have people know where you are and then have quick access to a lawyer who can file a habeas petition to make sure you don't go anywhere, which is a lot. yeah. >> it is a lot. i will underscore what you just said, which is it might be changing. and let's think of the number of immigration cases that are on the emergency docket where the supreme court is weighing in. it feels like almost every few days on what's permissible and what's not, and giving lower courts directions. that's not to undermine anything that we've just talked about in the fear

that people will feel again, all it takes is videos of a few people to scare thousands of people. but i think what we are looking at certainly is a situation where we haven't. again, we have. i'm going to say the same thing i did before. we haven't been here before. we are defining the amount of due process. as i talked to my students last night, we're defining the amount of due process which is owed, the amount of process. that is, the government has to give. and there are also political issues at play. obviously, there are situations where we have somebody who's been sent from america to a foreign prison, and there are there is the ability for the trump administration, i believe, to pick up the phone and say, we need your help. so there are both legal and political issues playing out at the same time, obviously. >> jessica levinson, julian zelizer, thank you so much for joining us on these stories. coming up, what marco rubio said

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party? semafor is reporting that at least a half dozen senators are now viewed as potential 2028 candidates by their colleagues and top democrats on capitol hill? it's a lot of folks. some are calling it a potential presidential primary dogpile in 2028. joining us now, phil bump and peter baker, who are who are still with us. all right. so phil, let's talk about the field and what the fields might need to consider. you've got some polling on what costs the democrats in 2024. lay it out. >> yeah. i mean, i think the way you framed it as being the next generation, i think is really important. one of the things that we saw in 2024 is we saw this decline in support for the democratic candidate among younger voters in particular. part of that, i think, is just that younger voters don't recognize the exception that donald trump is within our political system, but part of it is just that the democrats have actually lost ground, particularly among young men and particularly young young men of color. we've also seen polling that suggests that there's been

sort of some some reversion, that some of that support for trump has probably been been fallen back over the course of the first couple months of his presidency. so we're sort of in uncertain territory. but the democratic party has for a long time now been more subject to the whims of young people, because young people are more likely to vote for democrats than than they are for republicans. so the democratic party has to be very attentive to this. and so i think that a candidate who is able to effectively argue to young people that they are the vision, that they are the way forward for the country, i think that person is probably going to have more luck as a general election candidate. the question, of course, is are those young people going to vote in the primary and therefore help get that person on the ticket in the first? >> i think that's a really good point that you made at the top, which is that for younger voters, donald trump is not an anomaly. he's not a disruptor of the status quo. he is the status quo. donald trump style politics is what they've always known. and understanding that and understanding and then and then reacting to the world that we

live in today, not the world that we lived in ten years ago, 20 years ago is important. and what you have in the democratic party right now, peter, is a generation that harkens back to a very different political climate, and there have been arguments out there made and criticisms that democratic leadership are playing by old rules, rules that no longer apply. peter, you're on mute. >> oh, sorry. sorry. in some ways they are obviously playing by old rules and it hasn't been successful for them. you can argue because they've now lost the presidency twice to donald trump, once with the popular vote. and, you know, there's an argument to be said that they need to go out there and find ways of fighting in a way that don't seem quite so decorous. that's what you hear from a lot of people who are in the party, particularly younger leaders, saying that the older members of the party who think that politics has played the way it was in the 80s or 70s or 90s,

the biden generation that's long past. at the same time, of course, there are democrats who will tell you you need to make a contrast. they simply becoming a leftist version of trump doesn't stand on principle. you know, you need to stand for something better than just we have other we have an ideology that's just different than his, that if you are arguing that he is a threat to democracy, if you're arguing that he represents a corrosive and divisive kind of politics than simply being corrosive and divisive from the other side, you know, changes the argument. so the democrats haven't figured that out yet, and they don't have an obvious leader right now. these are a number of accomplished people who are making their way up to the foreground, but it's hard to see which of them at this point, is going to emerge from that group in the way that barack obama did in 2008 as the representative of a new generation? >> yeah. let's bring in somebody from the party, former new york congressman and former d.o.j. staffer mondaire jones. it's good to have you. welcome to the show. >> good to be here. >> the new generation of the democratic party, the next generation of the democratic party. what do they need to keep

in mind? >> well. >> what they need to keep in mind is that we've got a whole election coming up in 2026 that is of existential importance, especially if people want to do something to rein in the excesses and the illegalities and the corruption of this current presidential administration. so we have to keep our eyes on the prize when it comes to that. and then, of course, if we're fortunate enough in this country to still have free and fair elections, a 2028 presidential election will take place. i don't think that, you know, the so-called biden cover up is going to be prominent in 2028. i think there's going to be a lot of things on the minds of voters. but it is important, of course, for people to be honest about what happened in 2024. >> well, let's let's leave biden out of it for a second and just focus on messaging. there's a debate within the democratic party whether they should lean more progressive. and there is polling numbers out today suggesting that the face of the democratic party by far is aoc, obviously on the progressive bent, or if they should go back and hew toward more of a middle ground. i wonder where, you know, you've you've you've run

elections, you've won elections. where do you stand on where the future is, what the path is? >> well, i think first of all, that the reason aoc is so popular compared to many other figures in the democratic party is not because people view her to be progressive, so to speak. it's because they see her standing up. she's out to elon musk and donald trump at a time when people not just democrats, but independents and some disaffected republicans alike, are saying, who the hell is going to at least try to stop these people from doing what they've been doing when it comes to tanking the economy, taking away fundamental freedoms and so on and so forth. and you see her when she's out there talking about a message that sounds an economic populism. she's not out here using the word progressive, frankly. and a lot of members of the congressional progressive caucus haven't been using that word very recently either. >> so it's an ugly word. now. >> look, i think it's a word, sadly, that has been co-opted by by some of the more extreme members. many of them don't even identify as democrats in the far left of american politics. but

what everyone can get behind is the fact that we need an economy that works for everyone. that is a bold economic agenda. so bernie sanders and aoc are out there talking about it the way, you know, chris deluzio in pennsylvania and other moderates are, then that's a good thing. and that's unifying for the party. >> all right. i'm going to leave this conversation here for a moment. we're going to come back all the same faces. we're going to talk a little bit more about to talk a little bit more about (vo) memory and thinking issues keep piling up? it may seem like normal aging but could be due to a buildup of amyloid plaques in the brain. the sooner you talk to your doctor, the more options you may have. learn more at amyloid.com. got an itchy throat from allergies? claritin liquid provides powerful, all-day allergy relief in an instantly soothing liquid. for relief of even your most irritating symptoms, like an itchy throat. claritin liquid. live claritin clear.® unitedhealthcare knows you've got your whole life ahead of you. hey, woo hoo!

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former president's health. >> and you know, it sounds pretty serious. >> but. >> but hopefully he makes the right recovery. >> i will say. >> whether the right time to have this conversation is now or at some point in the future. >> we really. >> do need to be honest about whether the former president was capable of doing the job. >> back with us, peter, phil and mondaire. so questions about donald trump are about president biden's fitness, whether he should have ran for office again. and obviously, the cancer diagnosis are top of the headlines today. there's jake tapper book original sin that's out with alex thompson, and it's got a lot of detailed reporting about what was happening inside the white house. they call it a cover up to hide from voters and even some of the cabinet members. how unwell president biden was or how not. well, we should say he was, how much he had aged. there had started to

be a discussion about what democrats should do in the future, what lessons they should take from the past, what they can learn from it, how they move forward. but, peter, that was complicated by the announcement that joe biden has very serious prostate cancer. >> well that's right. look, obviously there are legitimate questions to ask about any president's health and whether or not the public is getting the full story or whether or not a president is capable of doing the job and should run for another term. but at this point, when you see the announcement that they just made, you know, there are a lot of people who say, look, that's kind of in bad taste at the moment that that's kind of, you know, that we should put that to the side. david axelrod, who's been very tough on president biden in terms of his decision to run for a second term, said the other day that we should put this to the side for the moment. so did meghan mccain, the daughter of john mccain. so it's a debate that feels very fraught at the moment, for all the obvious reasons. you people want to talk about the things that they're talking about. joe biden as a

human being right now, who's going through an extraordinarily difficult time, a man who throughout his life has has endured one ordeal after the other children who died, his own health problems in the past, you know, election setbacks and so on. and his mantra of his life was resilience. it's always been get back up. his father, he always tell us, would tell us. he would tell him, excuse me. when you're knocked down, get back up. but that doesn't mean the questions aren't appropriate to ask as well, because in fact, there are lessons for the future here. we had a president in office who was in his 80s, and that raises obvious issues, whether about whether that's a good idea, whether there are accommodations that need to be made or result. we currently have a president who will be in his 80s not very long from now in office. it's not an issue of the past, and in fact, it's an issue of today. and a lot of people look at president trump and say, you can see signs of aging there, too, not in the physical way that you saw necessarily with president

biden, but in some of the things he says, which seem kind of, you know, less than, you know, sharp, less than coherent, and that's going to, you know, raise issues for another three and a half years. >> yeah. there is a change from the way donald trump even spoke. and during the first term, he he doesn't sound quite as coherent as he used to. it is still markedly different than what we were seeing toward the end of biden's tenure there. again, though, he is still aging and he's going to have three more years, three and a half more years in office. phil, there's a trust issue that's at play for the democrats. and this had been building because there were so many democrats around, president biden and democrats in congress, democratic leadership who would say, what are you talking about? he's great. he's doing so well. you should see him behind closed doors. he's with it. he's making decisions. he's as sharp as he's ever been. but that never lined up with what we saw, what the public saw in in public and all of the polling for many, many months suggested that or said very clearly that voters thought he was too old to run again. they didn't want him to run

again. and with this reporting from jake tapper and alex thompson, now with the announcement of the of the prostate cancer, there's sympathy there, obviously, but there's also an issue of broken trust. how big of a problem is that? >> yeah, i mean, i think in the immediate term it's a challenge to the party. i don't think it's a problem over the long term, quite frankly. i mean, i think we're talking about two different things, you know, were there decisions that were made in order to try and preserve his political future, or were they protecting the fact that that he was absolutely incapable at a consistent basis of doing the job? i have some experience in adjudicating these issues of mental capacity, and it is not the case that simply one day someone wakes up and or lacks capacity to make decisions and do things. you know, it is sort of a sliding scale and can vary for an individual over time. right? and so i have not seen any evidence that joe biden was consistently unable to do the job of president and that that was hidden from the american public. i have not seen that sort of evidence. i have seen

lots of evidence that there was a great deal of protection around him politically, trying to preserve his ability to run for reelection 2024, which i think everyone at this point realizes was probably not a good decision for the party. but that said, you know, i don't think this is the sort of thing that's going to linger unless there was, for example, you know, just picking a name out of a hat. kirsten gillibrand, senator from new york, had known for a fact that joe biden was incapable of being president and she wants to run in 2028, and that is brought up at a at a primary debate or something like that, like under those circumstances. yeah. okay. i can see this coming up again. but i think in the moment it's a worthy conversation to have. i don't think it has long political legs. >> yeah. well doesn't it depend though, on who's running? i mean, if this is a kamala harris running again, isn't this going to follow her? maybe if it's a pete buttigieg, does it follow him. if it's somebody that was in donald trump's cabinet or his inner circle, or was with him enough and then vociferously vouched for him? joe biden, i'm sorry i say donald trump so much. it's like force of habit. >> i wonder. >> why does it hurt them if the next generation includes some of

the big names that we've seen in the orbit currently, does it follow them? >> i think it's a challenge for individuals who are in his cabinet, for example, or who served as his vice president, to be on the campaign trail in 2027 and 2028, answering questions about that. but, you know, there's a really good chance that it's going to be someone who's got no ties to washington, who ends up being the democratic nominee in 2028. and i don't think that person is going to be challenged in that way. i think, first of all, let's just state the obvious. you know, what's what's happened to the president is obviously very devastating. and, you know, i think we've all got our own experiences with family members and cancer and whatnot. and so i do think that that he deserves grace in that context. you mentioned that the announcement last week complicated the discussion that had been ongoing about, you know, his his frailties as recently as a year ago when he, you know, was running for reelection until he had to drop out. it complicates it. but i got to say, i think people are still viewing even this, this latest information through the lens of, well, what did he know?

you know, is it is it that this was a recent revelation or was it part of the concealment of information about his ability to, to, to do a second term? >> it does raise questions. and those questions are being asked again, we just don't have any answers, at least not right now. mondaire jones, really good to have you. welcome to the show, phil bumps, peter baker, gentlemen, thank you as well. coming up next, what marco rubio said about why white afrikaners are welcome in the united states, why them. >> don't go anywhere. >> nearly home. >> need more space? >> i feel like i'm suffocating. >> oh, no. is this the episode with the breakup? >> how will we find the one? >> okay, let's simmer down now. y'all need realtor.com, the app the pros trust most. with over 500,000 new listings every month, you could find the one today. >> this could be it. >> better put a key ring on it. >> you could say. >> that again.

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>> one more thing before we go. secretary of state marco rubio was on the hill testifying for the first time since his confirmation, and senator tim kaine wanted to know why exactly the trump administration chose to make a refugee exemption for white afrikaners. >> do you. >> think afrikaner. >> farmers are the most persecuted group in the world? >> i think those 49 people that came certainly felt they were persecuted and they passed every, every sort of check mark that had to be checked off in terms of meeting the requirements. >> for that. >> they live in a country. where farms are taken and. >> land is. >> taken on a racial basis. do you think there are more persecuted than. uyghurs or rohingyas, or more persecuted than political dissidents. >> in cuba. >> or venezuela or nicaragua. >> more persecuted than. >> those who would. >> be threatened should they be

returned to afghanistan by violence. >> by. >> the taliban? >> well, the problem we face there is the volume problem. okay. if you look at all the persecuted people in the world, it's millions of people. they can't all come here. and we had refugee programs. so why why. >> prioritize afrikaner farmers? >> well, because it's a small subset. it's a new issue. and the president identified it as a problem and wanted to use it as an example. but that's different from having these refugee programs that were basically spent spending money to put people up in communities and accommodate them, and it was acting as a magnet. millions of people in country illegally. and today the border is sealed. >> let let me. challenge you. and i'm just going. >> to say for the public, if you want to understand. >> about the, quote. >> persecution of. afrikaner farmers, go look at the. >> composition of the south. >> african government since july of 2024. there's a government of national. unity and the. the opposition. >> party. >> to the anc, the afrikaner party, the democracy alliance, is. >> part of the governing coalition. >> they joined. >> the governing coalition a year ago. and the leader of

that. party was. given the remit of agriculture minister john steenhuisen. he is the leader of the former afrikaner party, still widely representing afrikaners. he is the minister of agriculture in south. africa right now. >> i assert. >> that this claim that there's persecution of afrikaner farmers is completely specious. are you aware ever during the apartheid era in south africa, did the united states establish a special program to allow south african blacks who were treated as second class citizens in apartheid program, a special program that they could claim refugee status in the united states? no, because i was probably in ninth grade or eighth grade at the time. well, then i don't expect you to know. i'll just tell you. never has there been a program, a special program for africans to come in as refugees to the united states. states. >> that's going to do it (water running) i can clean your teeth, but i can't wash your whole mouth.

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