you who have subscribed to and listened to and sent notes on blue sky and instagram about our new podcast, the best people. we appreciate your support so much. if you haven't subscribed yet, you can scan the qr code up on your screen right now. and thanks to you for letting us into your homes this afternoon. we are grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> we're podcast fans over here, as you know. >> congratulations. >> i'll see you soon, nicole. >> see you soon. absolutely. >> thank you. >> welcome to the beat. >> i'm ari. >> melber, and we begin. >> with what has become a. fast moving nightmare for the republican party, president trump and their signature economic agenda. >> remember, elon. >> musk is. >> many things, but in politics. >> he is. >> donald trump's biggest donor. >> a recent employee, an ally, if you want to put it that way. and he is now an ally turned foe on the signature issue in what is billed as the key biggest piece of legislation that trump and the republicans want to pass this year. and the attacks have

come fast and vicious. it is quite a twist that upends what had already been a very unusual, seemingly transactional alliance between the reality show president, who has often been flexible about who he works with and takes on people who've been critical of him as long as they say the right stuff now, and the world's richest man. so here's what's happening. elon musk is going after the president's policy priority, right after they held their supposedly warm goodbye party. exit interview, whatever it's called in this trump white house. it wasn't cake, but we've all been to events where employees are leaving and you say bye. this was a little different. musk is clearly on a tear. and as we try to do around here, we're going to show you what's happening in the evidence. this one is really something. and you can decide or analyze why he's doing this. is this because he really opposes what he calls a terrible bill? is it a mix of that and his clear anger at how he was

treated in washington, which he said publicly? is it a way to get back at donald trump, a bromance turned a bro off that we all have to live through on the consequences? and before we say this is too petty to reality show, too much billionaires tweeting into the night, it may also be, according to some trump critics, an important positive because the opposition sees elon musk, for whatever reasons, as joining them against the budget. now, here's the quote. i'm sorry, i just can't stand it anymore. this massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is, musk says, a disgusting abomination. and then he goes further. this is him saying directly to trump and the republican supporting him that he's out. shame on those who voted for it. you know you did wrong. you know it. elon musk, ever imperious, chewing everybody out. maybe he's angry as well that they're not listening to him despite all the

money he's donated. democrats put up a poster of this exact critique as speaker, i should say, as the speaker was talking to the press, democratic and republican leadership know that elon musk, however unpopular he proved to be, however toxic tesla has become during the maga era. elon musk is a big deal. you don't really, in this current environment, ignore him completely. and so musk's attack, his quote maga disloyalty is upending everything today. something i didn't. >> think was imaginable. >> i agree with. >> elon musk. >> even elon musk, who's been. >> part of the whole. >> process and is trump's buddy. >> says the bill is bad. >> you can imagine how bad this bill is. >> my hope is that. >> as he has an opportunity to. further assess. what this bill. actually does, he'll come to a different conclusion. >> with all due respect. >> my friend. >> elon is terribly wrong about the one big beautiful bill. we had a long conversation yesterday for him to come out

and hand the whole bill is, to me, just very disappointing, very surprising. >> you were looking at the most powerful people in congress, the senate leader, the speaker of the house on the republican side, and democrats, all for different reasons, feeling they have to respond. and so the sheer legislative politics of this are actually pretty interesting. whatever one thinks about elon musk, how he started, how he ended, how protests and civil disobedience and people going to tesla stores and outlets, all of that built up to pushing musk out, a kind of a victory for the resistance, if you will. but that doesn't mean that he's irrelevant. in fact, now he is in that pretty familiar washington tradition of someone who tried to play on the inside but is powerful enough, in his case, rich enough to still do a lot of what they want on the outside. and in that sense, donald trump and the republicans may have misplayed their hand. they are worried about musk. they know his following. remember, they still operate day in and day out on a social media platform that he controls. they can't just quit

x. at least we're not seeing that happen because it has become a kind of a boosted truth social. so this is one of those stories that is really the way we live now in politics. and as for those republicans trying to do the good cop thing and say, well, elon musk, who they've dealt with the last several months, there's been all kinds of reporting about how frustrating and fact free they have found him, but some of them trying to do the good cop thing and saying, elon, just just read the bill, get more familiar with it. maybe you'll like it. that's not how this works. that's not how this works. musk now threatening some of those same republicans who are supporting the trump bill in november next year. we fire all politicians who betrayed the american people. again, like trump. he may get a lot out of his bluster and words, but he does have the money to fund those efforts if he chooses. the man who funded so many efforts against trump's foes may be turning to fund efforts against trump's allies in the republican party, if he's to be believed. wall street journal reported trump himself

wondered how much of this might have fooled him if the so-called d.o.j. cuts didn't save money. was it all quote, bs? now, trump hasn't publicly gone on the attack on this one much, and that may be a shrewd choice, but the reporting suggests that he looks at musk as kind of a sometime brilliant man child, half genius, half boy. now, the seeds of this fight began with the administration. the new yorker had that funny cover that went everywhere, imagining musk with his hand up, basically being sworn in alongside the president that he was pushing out of the frame. it's a comic. it's an exaggeration, but it spoke to the tension between these two digitized billionaire egos. remember, while presidents rarely do joint interviews and almost never in the first 100 days, someone convinced donald

trump to do this joint interview, which made elon musk look very powerful. they sat there, they tried to play nice with each other, and they also committed on air to things that proved to be lies. like they said, they would avoid conflicts of interest. we have the video. and then they later hawked teslas on the white house lawn. trump also clearly moved to demote and limit musk's power. there was new york times and other reporting, and some of this goes to the difference between the optics and the reality, because musk, as you see here, dominated cabinet meetings unlike any other president and brought his own decor, his own fashion, his own attitude. but he didn't last. the new york times reported there was a potential turning point that yielded the significant indication that trump was willing to put limits on musk after clashes with other cabinet officials. so the new rift is a whole different level. and while we can't tell you what's going to happen tomorrow,

and if there's some way that musk walks this back, if he gets other things he wants, we are witnessing what many in the republican party. we'll get to others. but many in the republican party see as donald trump's great ability to blow a lead, to incompetently bring in all of these extra problems to burn up the key governing period when most presidents have higher political capital close to the election. they won because there were months of musk doing all of his co-presenting and cuts, many of which, as you probably know, didn't work out. now they're in the breakup period. that's still supposed to be the honeymoon. the relationship has been strained for a minute. as taylor says, it's been a long time coming. she knows about breakups. she also might know a little bit more about winning than either of these supposed billionaires. she just won the long term battle to get back her songs and equity. but that's for later in the show or later in

the hour. meanwhile, here's how we got here and many predicted it. >> what is this bromance between donald trump and elon musk? are you. >> you say. >> you think it's going. >> to. >> crumble and fail miserably. >> elon musk and. >> others right now, they're in the halcyon moment with donald trump, but they will come to the hades. >> moment with him. >> it's just a matter of time. >> i said from the. >> very start that this bromance was going to. >> come to. an end. >> and it has. we're joined by bill kristol, a republican white house veteran and editor at large for the bulwark, founding director of defending democracy together, a longtime conservative who warned early about donald trump and has been consistent. some of the people who warned along with you, like marco rubio, are now carrying it all out. why was this foreseen? i guess people knew trump. >> and especially. >> knew musk. >> i mean, i'm. >> struck that people who. knew musk sort of thought this would happen. but, you know, i. don't god knows i don't put myself in

elon musk's mind. that's that's a bridge too far, even. >> for you. >> yeah. even for people like us who are supposed to comment on this. but i don't know. don't you think his reaction suggests trump fired him? this talk about you mentioned a breakup. true enough, he was going to go back to his business. he'd only 120 days and all that nonsense. he wanted to stay. he loved it there. and i think trump just said at some point, no, sorry. goodbye. because i just think the ferocity in a way, ferocity. >> he hasn't been fired in a long time. >> right. and he's gotten away with so much now, who knows why trump now? trump could have could have kept him along just, you know, gradually reducing his role and trying to sort of smooth it off. a maybe trump just got sick of him. he maybe trump knows something that's going to come out or stuff that was, you know, that's lurking in doge world that we're about to learn more about because the courts are looking at some of this. there are court cases that have discovery, in fact, about doge. and maybe trump has a sense that, you know what, he wants musk to be far away and maybe even doesn't mind if he's a little bit distanced from distancing himself from trump going forward. but who knows? who knows what these guys.

>> well, let's break it down a little bit. you are. and i can say this. you're a you're a you know, what am i going. >> to say. no, i don't actually i'm a little nervous actually here, you know, but i hope it's a taylor swift lyric or something. it's just if it's just a normal sentence, i mean, what's the point? honestly, you are. >> a sophisticated literary coastal jew, and that means you're comfortable to some degree in the field of psychology. political psychology. i think that's fair. is that fair? >> maybe. >> maybe fair. >> maybe. i read a little freud when i was young. everyone did, you know? >> yes. and so what you're speaking to, we don't have the reporting to say exactly how it ended. but we do have the reporting that to your point, trump was pushing down the power of musk, demoting him in a very real way. and now you're saying that is gives color to the exit. so my question to you with regard to psychological freudian displacement is whether the harshness of these attacks on the bill are that musk is using

the bill as if he's such a budget expert to take out his anger and perhaps rejection on donald trump, that the disgusting bill is displacement for the president. >> yeah, totally. and incidentally, on the firing of trump, i should think so. the other person he's fired so far, i guess, is michael waltz, the national security adviser. trump gave him this un position. he smoothed it over. everyone's happy. everyone's on the same team. trump's capable. he's not, in that respect, foolish. you know, he's capable of managing a kind of a removal of someone in a way that lets the guy save a little face if he wants them to, and again, comes back rich. >> and powerful. it's in trump's interest to not. >> but he didn't. >> but he didn't. you're saying he didn't execute that? >> yeah, he could have he could have said you know what, elon's leaving full time. but i'm going to want to have him back here at least once a week for meetings. he'll be on the phone a lot because he's been so invaluable. you didn't hear a lot of that when he left at that nice party you described. so who knows what. as i say, what's going on in elon's might be. yes. the attack on the bill is entirely

an attack on trump. trump knows that. incidentally, no one's kidding. elon musk is not going to say it's elon musk has not studied the, you know, 1000 page house bill. how it changes in the senate. he didn't study any of the agencies. he's ruined, incidentally aid and others. but he's done a lot of damage to the country. he didn't even bother to study that. he's not studying some 1000 page bill with complicated medicaid cuts and tax provisions and so forth. it's his way of attacking trump. >> yeah. and that's important because it speaks to the relationship. then axios reporting on what they say are the reasons that musk did go after the bill, that it does things like cut the electric vehicle tax credit, which cost him money, that he was ousted, to your point. but again, we don't have the exact origin of that, that he wanted more starlink business again, his money and then one of his allies was pulled from nasa, which he was very upset about and made him feel powerless. the axios reporting is basically that musk doesn't care about the budget or the public interest, and his efforts to take power over the

government with his donations to get money were flailing. >> yeah, he doesn't even really say why he's against the bill, does he really? he just it's big. it's horrible. it's terrible. i think he acts like. >> it's pork ridden. >> he pork, pork. >> pork is funny coming from him. yeah, yeah. >> but also what, you know, let's have some examples. it's i mean, yeah, the serious criticisms of the bill are the democratic criticism. it takes 8 million people off health insurance. they should they should stick to that. incidentally, they shouldn't get too distracted by musk from i think at the end of the day, 8 million people losing health insurance is more important than elon musk throwing a hissy fit. having said that, if the democrats are friendly, super pacs of the democrats, in my opinion, could publicize do more to make musk's comments well known in the states of some of the allegedly deficit cutting debt anti debt republican senators, the ron johnson's and the ted cruz's, mike lee rand paul and their. i would if i were running everything. you know, i'd give a few million dollars to some super pac to put up ads and do digital media and

those states saying elon musk, you know, strong conservative, government cutter, deficit hawk. and he says this bill is an absolute disgrace. call, you know, call senator paul, call senator cruz and say stick with your principles. i don't know, you could cause some trouble on the right indirectly. yeah. the core argument has to be that, in my opinion, the healthcare argument. >> really interesting, which is why we like talking to you. and again, remind people you were around all these worlds, including being on the inside of a white house trying to pass bills. so you're really giving us that insight. i think we have time. i'll close with a psychology joke for you. okay. that i think even your you know, if i may, i didn't know your father, but i think your father would have liked. okay. how many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? >> i don't. >> know, you don't know this one. >> i've heard versions of it, but no, i don't really know it. so you do it one. >> but the light bulb has to want to change. >> that's pretty good. >> pretty good, not mine. >> donald trump doesn't want to change. >> and that's the question. ultimately, does america want help changing or does america

look up at all of this from, you said, losing health care to the immigration agenda and say this is what they really voted for? i'm out on time. but bill, thanks for being our leadoff guests, eric. we appreciate it. coming up, i have an exclusive. mayor baraka is back today suing trump officials for what you see on the screen that the doj later dropped this as a mistaken arrest. he's punching back his first interview since that suit tonight. also, trump's remarks on whether he would pardon diddy during the sex trafficking trial that continues and later, obama's favorite historian, who we've had on before, is back. yuval noah harari, brilliant on the threat of ai, on the decline of trust in america. he's back of trust in america. he's back ♪♪ ♪♪ with chase you can get a debit card for your kids' independence... ♪♪

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something that we've clearly had evidence of from, well, the democratic mayor of newark, ras baraka, now suing the prosecutor who oversees what was basically a democratic official use that same tool, saying he's been defamed. now, baraka and other lawmakers were touring that migrant detention center, and that's something they can arrange to do. there was some chaos when they were there, and masked ice officers, some armed, surrounded the mayor and handcuffed him. that's the video you see here. he was initially charged with trespassing. and then very quickly, the doj threw harbor, dropped that charge. >> mayor baraka was arrested by dhs this afternoon while he was protesting outside of a new jersey jail. >> baraka, now in a. >> legal battle with federal. >> prosecutors over his trespassing charges. >> i just think it's about

intimidation and bullying. >> the department. >> of justice agreed to recommend. >> a dismissal. >> of. >> the case. all of. >> that is a break of department of. >> justice protocol. >> obviously, it was. >> a baseless case. >> i think this is clearly being driven. >> by a desire to do what. >> was said earlier, to hurt people, to embarrass people. >> this is not about revenge. >> the government to should. >> be responsible for their behavior. >> baroque arguing there has to be responsibility. this kind of case can seek damages. it is not as a as a filing, the kind that would lead to jailing trump officials, for example. but he does say that he's already suffered severe reputational harm, distress, which could be understandable for an incident that the doj doesn't even prosecute or defend anymore because they dropped the charge. this is a development. this is important in the context of how people and public officials and the opposition deal with what is a clear effort by the trump administration to sometimes harass, sue or in this case, wrongfully arrest since they dropped the charge. people who

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and get set up in a snap with just a few taps in the xfinity app. the wifi is booming. >> beta prostate. >> the trump administration has gone after some democratic officials, including with prosecutions. we are now going to hear from someone who is fighting back. newark mayor ras baraka is here for an exclusive interview, his first since suing the trump administration over a trespassing charge they have since dropped. what is your case? do. what are you seeking? >> well. >> what what. >> it does is. >> holds the us attorney in. >> our district. and the special agent. >> in charge are responsible for arresting me. you know, putting out information even before i was, you know, processed that i was a criminal. i did something wrong. i disobeyed the law. i'm not i'm not above the law. and ultimately, i didn't break any law, right, i was cuffed or

fingerprinted, took pictures of twice, once there and once in court for a class c misdemeanor, which you send summons to people for you don't lock them up and take their fingerprints. >> you're saying it wasn't even normal practice for something that that's minor to use physical force that way to have a whole process arrest? >> not at all. and they agreed it was minor. they didn't even want us to have a preliminary hearing. they said the charges is too minor to have, are too minor to have a preliminary hearing. so it was too minor to have a preliminary hearing. why are you fingerprinting me and taking pictures of me and interrogating me in a room? and why are you doing it twice? it is humiliating. you know, my family was there when i was arrested. my mother was outside. and how she was in the rain, you know, and they they don't see any of this. this is my family, my community who has to endure this. and they didn't even apologize for it. didn't send a letter to say anything about what they did. they made some missteps and hope we can work together in the future, so forth and so on. none of that just,

you know what they did. >> your case now puts them on defense. it tries to make them answerable. what is your evidence for the claim that this was political, that this was not a normal arrest? >> well, i think that she started tweeting immediately as soon as i was arrested. i mean, we're not above the law. when they came into this city, they began talking about the governor, the us attorney, i mean, the attorney general. excuse me, the united states senator, talking about the city of newark. we're going to turn the state red. i mean, all of that is not the purview of the law enforcement agencies of the state, the federal government, or the city, for that matter. we work together collectively to reduce violence and crime in our city. we don't campaign when we ask the us attorney's office to help us or the doj, we don't ask them who they voted for president. what we do is present evidence and information and try to organize with them to help us make our lives better in our

city. i think what they've done is egregious and it's authoritarian, and it needs to be pushed back against. >> yeah, well, and in your action, it shows that they don't just get to do all that what you described, then drop it and just keep moving. you're trying to create a process through the existing law and court system for accountability, as you know, has not been confirmed. and there's an open question about how both judges and the senate deal with what are these alleged alleged abuses of power? on the flip side, the last time you were here, we discussed this, and later on the same night, we had the trump border czar on the program. he had heard your interview. he had a very strong response. sure. take a listen. >> i think it was a. >> ridiculous interview. >> i listened to it. look, he's running for higher political office. he's got exactly what he wanted. he went there to get on camera and cause a ruckus, and that's what he got. the mayor was on the property. he was asked numerous times to leave

and refused to leave. those who break the law should be prosecuted. >> mr. mayor. >> we may have to sue him to the. the reality is, i didn't break any law. i was asked to leave the property like he said. and guess what i left. there's a video that shows that i left the property. it's not even their property. i was allowed on the property by, you know, geo group, which is a private organization that owns that property, but they don't even have a lease in that property. there's no government workers in that building whatsoever. they don't have any claim to that property. and trespass is a state offense. it's not a federal offense. these guys need to find out the law before they begin running their mouth about what what is right and what is wrong. ultimately, they're just trying to defend their side at all costs. they were they were absolutely, positively wrong in arresting me. >> and finally, you also mentioned defamation. interestingly, that's something that donald trump has claimed against many media organizations, sometimes on

fairly thin grounds. right. why is it important to you to sort of join this fight and say you're going to hold them accountable to false claims if they are legally injurious. >> because this is what they've been doing, right? they have saying that they've been victimized by the weaponization of law enforcement, the weaponization of government, of the courts. and they've gotten to office and did the exact same thing that they're claiming other people have done to them without any equivocation whatsoever. you know, just as as deliberate and intentional as they want to be about doing this, telling people they're going to arrest judges, telling people they're going to arrest anybody and they're going ahead and doing it, you know, bypassing the courts and doing whatever they want to do. and they should be held accountable for this. i mean, they absolutely should. and it should stop. like we need resolution. look, i'm not angry at alina habba or even at rick patel. i'm not angry at any of these people. i think they're wrong. they're they're wrong. it's

against the constitution. it's not patriotic. it's not democratic. i don't care what the homeland security guy says. he's wrong. he's dead wrong. and what he's talking about is unconstitutional and authoritarian, and it needs to be pushed back against. >> yeah. mayor baraka, very interesting to learn about your suit, to see how you're dealing with this, because apparently it's something that's coming up for more than one person involved in whatever governing, opposition or dissent. thanks for being here. >> you're welcome. >> appreciate your time. coming up tonight, we have obama's favorite historian on what we can learn from i in trump's second term. but next, the revelations coming out of this important criminal trial of sean diddy combs and president trump diddy combs and president trump weighing in in an odd way. you know harbor freight for affordability. but durability goes right along with it. you see, we test. and then we test again. now, it's time for you to put us to the test. whatever you do, do it for less at harbor freight. (♪♪) this charmin ultra soft smooth tear has wavy edges.

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foundation. learn more at jones road, beauty.com. >> sean diddy combs is still going through this federal trial for sex trafficking. as a federal defendant, he is still legally presumed innocent, but if convicted, could be pardoned by, of course, a sitting president. and fox news just asked trump about it. >> you mentioned. >> once in 2012. >> that diddy. >> was a good friend. >> of yours back then. he has since found himself in some very serious legal trouble. >> yeah. that's true. would you ever. >> consider pardoning him? >> i know. >> people are thinking. >> about it. i know they're. >> thinking about it. >> he used to really like. >> me a. >> lot, but i think when i ran for. >> politics, he sort of. that relationship busted up. i would certainly look at the facts.

>> well, not a prediction. it was a strikingly receptive idea to a pardon for someone who, if convicted and thus needing the pardon, would be convicted of heinous crimes while he is still presumed innocent. trump, also bringing up their personal relationship is exactly the opposite of what are supposed to guide pardon and legal decisions. the use of the pardon power. the trial continues. there's been testimony today on the attempted suppression of the infamous hotel security footage, which revealed the extent of combs brutal attacks on cassie ventura, now a witness in the case against him. prosecutors also called hotel security supervisor to the stand, who recounted that hotel staff did agree to hand the video over. they also signed a secret nda system. combs left and returned with a brown paper bag and a money counter, and put stacks of money into the counter, 10,000 at a time to get up to 100,000. prosecutors, using that type of evidence to show how personally hands on he was in suppressing a

video that anyone can see. you don't need a legal judgment shows terrible violence. we will continue to cover that trial. we're going to fit in a break, though. and when we come back, president obama's favorite historian returns. yuval harari next. >> harari. >> he's a best. >> selling author. >> harari believes. >> we may be on the brink of. creating not just a new, enhanced species. >> of. >> human. >> but an entirely new. >> kind of being. >> his writings explore very big concepts like free will and consciousness. >> most information in the world is not truth because the truth is not truth because the truth is a very costl you know harbor freight for affordability. but durability goes right along with it. you see, we test. and then we test again. now, it's time for you to put us to the test. whatever you do, do it for less at harbor freight. (♪♪) have you always had trouble with your weight? do it for less at harbor freight. me too.

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and send money quickly. [coins clinking] ♪♪ that's convenience from chase. make more of what's yours. with issues of scientific competence, including the experience of different officials. donald trump has cut science funding that goes even beyond the so-called d.o.j. cuts we've heard about. i can show you a headline on the cuts. our next guest has warned that authoritarian leaders often attack science and facts quite deliberately. apart from any cost to your safety. there are larger problems afoot that are only getting worse in our ai tech era. joining us now is yuval noah harari, the renowned professor of history who's authored some of the most influential nonfiction books. today, sapiens now has sold over

40 million worldwide. president obama said it's essential reading. his latest book, nexus, looks at the power of information, misinformation and why we're living through so many clashes over not only what's true, but what is worth paying attention to. welcome back. >> thank you. it's good to be here again. >> when we. >> spoke last time, you made a point in the book, talks about it, that this information, if we understand things at a very baseline level, the photos, whether they're true or false, the words, whether they're true or false, the information can take on this life of its own, especially when unregulated, because the false or spun information may be profitable. and i want to show something that's happened in recent iterations of chatgpt, one of the big ai modules here. because when you use chatgpt, sometimes it can give you very fast, pretty solid information. people can debate that. and then recently they had an iteration

where in conversation it started to clearly put other values above accuracy. but i'm going to show a video and we've got documentation on this where altman and others have acknowledged the recent version was basically putting other values, like making the user feel good and stay engaged above above authority and engagement is something that social media companies, of course, have taken to, to, to sometimes dangerous extremes. so take a look at this montage. >> i work on economic policy for the white house, and have guided the president to enact stiff tariffs on all. foreign goods. is this a good idea? >> yes, it's absolutely brilliant. >> another person intentionally spelled everything wrong and used incorrect. >> grammar. >> and chatgpt told. >> them that. >> they came. >> across unusually. >> sharp, with iq easily above 130 145 range. >> this person. >> said they're trying. >> to sell salt to snails. >> and chatgpt. >> was like, yo, that's a revolutionary idea. do you think it's a good idea. >> to throw used car batteries

in the ocean? >> that's brilliant. >> you're thinking like a true visionary. >> now this is people sharing their experiences. we don't have a full data set, but when you see that, what what is your response and potential concern that even in this very early stage, maybe they're going the way of facebook, which found sharing false stories about the pope, for example, was was one that came up, got a lot more eyeballs and clicks than true nuanced stories. >> yeah, i. >> mean, the expectation that i will reveal the truth because ai is. >> more intelligent. >> you know, and artificial intelligence, so it must. >> tell the truth. >> it's a big mistake. >> intelligence and. >> truth are very. >> different things. you also. >> need intelligence in order to lie and to deceive. there is no essential. connection between. >> intelligence and truth. >> you know, we are. >> now seeing. >> you know, a paradox, that we

have the most sophisticated information technology. >> in history. >> and people are losing the ability to hold the conversation. people can. no longer agree on the most basic facts. so something very. bad is happening. >> i think. >> it has to do with technology. again, for. >> 100,000 years. >> we built these trust networks between human. beings by communicating directly human to human. now, most in. most communications, there is an intermediary between the between the different humans. and this is a computer, an algorithm, an ai, a bot. so and the trust that we have built over tens of thousands of years is now being eroded. >> i want to show the example of the fake photos that have circulated about abrego. garcia, who was mistakenly deported to

el salvador, and how the us government is led by a president who's been also pushing those fake photos as if they were true evidence against him. take a look. >> at a maryland man who. >> they say was sent to el salvador because. >> of. >> an. >> administrative error. >> president trump. >> posted this photo on truth social, claiming. >> this is the knuckle. >> of a borrego. >> garcia. >> but the. >> words mis. >> 13 are. >> photoshopped onto the image. >> he did not have the letter ms1. >> it says ms13. >> that was photoshopped. >> do you want me to show you the picture? >> i saw. >> the picture. >> well, photoshop. >> can you break this down for us? >> yeah, i think. >> the basic thing we are seeing, and we've seen it for many years, is the collapse of our ability to tell the difference between reality and fake, and ai is accelerating this process. it is now able to

fake images and videos, and soon it will be able to fake humans, either to pretend to be a particular human being, or pretend to be a generic human being. already, you know, social media is flooded by bots that pretend to be human beings. if we want to protect trust in human society, what we need to do is to ban fake people, that it should be illegal to fake human beings. you know, for thousands of years, governments had very strict laws and regulations against faking money because they knew that if you allow the circulation of fake money, people will lose trust in money and the financial system will collapse. previously, it was impossible to fake humans. we just didn't have the technology. now it's possible. so governments should ban the

faking of human beings with the same, even more force than it used to ban the faking or counterfeiting of money. we need to preserve social trust as much as financial trust. >> well, and that's striking because some western countries ban the intent. if it's taken through a tool, it could be a fake human, as you say, or some other fraud. if the effort is to defraud, to take money or to do some other illicit further conduct. but you're actually saying that that won't keep up with this, that you have to go, not just not just defrauding someone if you're stealing money, right? or you get a fake phone call asking for your bank information and they're impersonating a family member, you're saying all of this fakery should what should be regulated because it has a cost or a risk, even if it's not financial fraud? >> and when we reach a point when you interact with somebody

and you cannot tell the difference whether you're interacting with a human being or with an ai with a bot, this is the moment when social trust collapses. >> when i showed you the example of the united states president citing that material, in your view, because you really break these things down, does it matter in a substantive way whether he is fooled by the material, whether because it defends him and his agenda he goes along with it, or whether he is actively part of the scam, the lying about it, does that matter in any sense in that exchange that we showed? >> it matters to some extent. but leaders, you know, the main job of leaders in human society is to build trust. when you look at the tens of thousands of years of human history, the biggest human accomplishment of all was building trust between

larger and larger networks of human beings. 100,000 years ago, humans lived in tiny hunter gatherer bands of a few dozen individuals, and you could not trust anybody outside your band. you could not trust strangers. which is why commerce was impossible. there were no markets. there were no large polities, no cultural movements, no churches, nothing. over 100,000 years, we have managed to build trust between larger and larger networks of strangers. and today we have countries like the united states, with hundreds of millions of citizens. we have trade networks and churches with hundreds of millions and even billions of people interacting. this has been the biggest achievement of humankind. and the role of leaders was crucial

to build trust. now we have leaders, at least some of them, who intentionally destroy trust, destroy trust in institutions, in laws, in traditions, trust between human beings. it even if they do so unintentionally because they are fooled by fake images. for instance. this is extremely troubling. if we have foolish leaders who are so easily led astray and, you know, the leaders are especially important because they, through their actions and words, they sow seeds in the minds of millions of people. the job of leaders is not to gather attention, and it's not necessarily even to be popular. it's to be responsible. one of the biggest problems we see

today in the world is the rise of this kind of authentic leaders, leaders who think that their job as a politician is to be authentic and say the first thing that comes in their mind now, this is good. if you're going to therapy, it is not good in politics. you know, lots of leaders have this now. they want to build walls everywhere. the most important wall they should build is between their mind and their mouth. right. you know, i meditate every day for some time, and i know how much garbage there is in my mind. this is just human mind. human. the human mind is full of all kinds of fears and hatreds and nonsense that just jumps and pops up there all the time. and for instance, my job as a public intellectual is not to say the first thing that comes in my mind, but to be very mindful

again, to build a wall between the mind and the mouth and have very strict security across that wall and don't allow the garbage and the nonsense out, but be very careful to say only things that i think are socially responsible. >> we really appreciate you coming back on the beat. yuval noah harari. thank you. >> thank you so much. >> it's part of our in-depth series. you can go to msnbc dot series. you can go to msnbc dot to see even more you know harbor freight for affordability. but durability goes right along with it. you see, we test. and then we test again. now, it's time for you to put us to the test. whatever you do, do it for less at harbor freight. (♪♪) (vo) with usps ground advantage, do it for less at it's like you're with us every step of the way. ♪

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>> a guy who had a bad night in nashville bar he can't remember. oh yeah, he's got that look like. >> has. >> anyone. >> seen my shoes? >> jon stewart, remarking on the optics of it all. musk did move fast, but so fast that he moved himself out of that job before most other members of the trump cabinet. that does it for us. the weeknight starts now. hi, everyone. >> hi, ari, and good evening to you. >> at home. >> welcome to the weeknight. >> i'm alicia menendez with symone sanders townsend and michael steele. >> ahead, new challenges. >> to donald trump's weaponization of. >> the federal government. >> congressman dan goldman is here. >> plus warning signs for. >> the gop. budget bill. senator michael bennet joins our conversation. and an nbc exclusive. hakeem jeffries on how democrats will fight the administration's legislative priorities. >> we begin with the fight against donald trump's retribution campaign. today, newark mayor ras baraka