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tv   The Rachel Maddow Show  MSNBC  October 4, 2010 9:00pm-10:00pm EDT

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>> oh, goodness. gene, i don't know what else to say, other than we appreciate your taking the time to explain this to us. our sympathy on what happened. it's unbelievable. >> i like to say one more thing. >> please? >> if i can. >> yes. >> the mayor up here said i refused to pay. i did not refuse to pay. i told them i would pay whatever it took. but i had forgot this thing, and i know people don't think you forget things like that, but you do. and just so happened that i forgot it. now i have to suffer the consequences for it. so -- >> you paid your taxes. one would think it would be covered in that. i'm sorry to tend interview. i thank you for talking with us. >> all right. thank you. >> thank you. keith olbermann, good night,
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good luck pop . to discussion the threat to the nation's water supply, here is rachel maddow. >> good evening, keith. unbelievable story. incredible story. thank you keith. thanks. and thanks, too, at home, for staying with us. we'll be joined by mark ruffalo. michael isikoff, xwi come common wisdom busting good news. and by so many something we'll see get set on fire that should never, ever, ever get set on fire. all coming up over the course of this hour. we're glad to have you with us. first, there's something you need to know about this year's republican candidates. if i tell you, however, i may have to kill you. turns out. there are a lot of secret agents. fake secret agents running for office this year.
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running for major offices. they're connected. they're on the inside. and they have seen and done things that mere mortles like you and i can only dream of. today, one of the identities was revealed. sure, christine o'donnell is a candidate. in the delaware republican primary. but in 2006, she let slip that she was fake secret agent 001. at the time, a protest candidate running in election after election after election. that year, christine o'donnell bl blind side her republican opponent with this claim. kind that has a strategic plan to take over america. if they pretend to be our friend, it's because they have something up their sleeve.
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china plotting to take over america. how does christine o'donnell know about this plot. there's much i want to say. i wish i wasn't privy to some of the classified information that i am privy to. according to the associated press, when the claim was challenged, she suggested she had received it through nonprofit groups she worked with, that frequently sent missionaries to china. we called the campaign today to try to find out which nonprofit groups she had worked with that had access to class fied information. so far we have not heard back. we do know about her past work with nonprofits that she worked for groups that promoted the idea that homosexuality can be cured through religious boot camps. groups that said having sex alone is a kind of adultery.
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using condoms actually spread hiv and that allowing women to join the military harms the military. that's on the public record. we contacted the state department today to find out if being associated with groups that advocate things like that normally, or in the specific case, make the u.s. government disclose classified information about secret chinese plans to take over america. the state department has not found anything fr us yet. we'll keep you posted. fake secret agent file number two in syracuse new york. 002 is current republican candidate carl paladino. the year was 1970. after the shooting at kent state university, the campus of a
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university where carl went to school, this is where there was a take over of the building that day. >> chancellors office was overtaken. they stayed there overnight. agent paladino just revealed that in his mind, not only did things go differently than what everybody else rebs and what was this the papers at the time, he revealed that he had a superimportant secret agent role in how things went down that day. in his mind. fake secret agent carl paladino said that while working fake undercover with the syracuse police he was a negotiator in a hostage situation. when the riots came, i was the
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one that negotiated for the police chief to take the place of the school's chancellor. i went out and found them and said, you know, take the police commissioner and let the guy go home. they said, yeah, okay. according to actual reports at the time, no, carl, no. the school's chancellor was never held hostage, for one. nobody else but carl remembers carl having any role in the protests or the resolution of the protests at all. a current history professor at the administration building that day told the post "that's completely wrong. he's either living in cloud cuckoo land or his memory is clouded." one of carl's classmates said, i have the feeling this may be an
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urban legend in carl's mind. in unveiling of carl paladino as the fake secret agent number two follows the unveiling of fake secret agent 003. dan maes nationally famous by claiming for being an undercover agent for kansas at one point. i was plasd undercover by the kansas bureau of investigation to gather information in a bookmaking ring. i got close to people in the community and was dismissed from my position. i was placed undercover by the kansas bureau of investigations. after they came out and said, no. not true. dan maes admitted to the "denver
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post" that some people might be taking that too literally. failing to recognize that a hole you keep digging just keeps getting deeper. the dan maes campaign for governor keeps releasing more and more information about his time as a fake secret agent for kansas. all of which continues to prove he did not work as a secret agent in kansas. what he was fired for was for tipping off his girlfriend at the time that the police were going investigate her family. 003, dan maes, repeatedly outing himself as fake secret agent. 004, a gentleman named alan west. in a candidate forum last month, he made this remarkable claim about his own secret agent status. >> i had a top secret
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classification. the highest you can have if the united states army. i maintain secret security clearance. the application, i have a clearance that the president of the united states cannot obtain, because of my background. >> are you from another country? because president's kind of the clearance level -- nuclear football. i have a clearance that the president of the united states cannot attain? that's like saying you're more magically delicious than the lucky charms leprechaun. that makes no sense. you cannot do that unless you're in allen west's mind. one of the really fun things about a year like this, establishment candidates have been getting routed by people that are not establishment candidates. in new york, rick lazio got beat
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by carl paladino. dan maes won. david brady got beat by allen west. when outside candidates are beating establishment candidates over and over and over again, it sort of blows up the party machinery. blows up the establishment. the republican party has not had much of a say this year on who is representing the republican party on big ticket races. that begs a very unlikely question. was the republican party the machinery that was keeping folks like this out of national races? did we just lose the delusional person thinks he's a secret agent but he really isn't filter that we didn't know we needed until we lost ours? joining us no is msnbc contributor, my friend, eugene robinson. great to see you.
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>> you, too. >> that's not real politics. these are real tigss running for real office. >> they are. they could win. they could be representing actual u.s. citizens in the u.s. senate or as governor of a great state and you know, you used the word delusional. i don't know if that might not be fairly mild about some of this stuff. first of all, are you cleared for this? >> gene, i have been meaning to talk to you about -- >> okay, okay, you're cool. >> yeah. >> no. i mean, christine o'donnell thing, privy to class fied information. let's be serious. >> i was look into there about trying to be specific about the language here. allen west, raised millions of
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dollars for his campaign, he completely outspent the more moderate candidate who he beat badly in the primary. that republican, the moderate republican said as soon as west won, he believes, he believes he's irrational. if you're dealing with people that are delusional. believe they have secret class fied information, is there something beyond politics that should happen there? >> there is. reason should happen there. and we should all be concerned. and establishment republicans should be concerned because these people could be making decisions as leaders of our government. that concerns me that somebody does not seem to have a firm purchase on reality, who, or alternately just makes stuff up -- is -- you know -- that should be concerning i think to everyone.
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aside from republicans, democrats, who is up who is down. we talk about that some other time. we're talking about reality. we're talking about, you know, do you -- you know -- logic. and empirical reality. >> here's the strategic question. if you're a democrat running against one of these people, what i say beyond politics, do you stop campaigning against their pro-policy proposal. start saying listen, i'm not going engage with them on a political level because i think we have a person who has -- who has mental health issues or is seriously not -- with whom i cannot engage in a factual debate. >> i don't know that you can do
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that. it's counterproductive to halt the machinery of politics. if you stop, the delusional person could win. >> especially with the money they have. >> all the money, by the way, coming -- tea party money coming from billionaires and shadowy corporate groups that don't disclose the donors. you have to continue politics. but what needs to happen, i think, is that people need to call them out on these sorts of irrational nonlinear statements they're making. i know you're mad, i know you're angry. but come on. elect angry people who make sense. don't elect angry people who are crazy or two seem to be crazy because we're all going to be sorry if you do that. >> that's perfect. don't elect people who might be
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crazy, and i don't mean it as a euphemism. crazy is not a euphemism. that would be great bumper sticker. eugene robinson, so nice so have you here in person. >> thank you, rachel. >> colbert, tonight. >> right. i would tell you where i'm going to be tomorrow but i don't know if you're cleared to that. how many times have you heard that the democrats are bored? democrats are not hyped up to vote. what facts have you heard to bolster that assertion? the facts do not seem to hold true anymore. the political common riz dom gets emphasis on the dumb in wisdom. mark ruffalo is here to talk fracing, which is nearly as
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dirty as it sounds. please stay with it. ♪ [ male announcer ] try fixodent with a time released formula. use just once per day for all day hold. it is important to use the product as directed. for poor fitting dentures, see your dentist. for hold from dawn to dark... fixodent and forget it.
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have you ever had to warm someone to keep an open flame away from the running water in your house? actor and now activist mark ruffalo joins us with why some home owners can now set their tap water on fire. we'll be right back. ♪ i used to see the puddles, but now i see the splash. ♪ i wanted love, i needed love ♪ ♪ most of all, most of all... ♪
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no, that's the name of the new oreo cookie. what's the name of the new oreo cookie? [ eli ] heads or tails. tails. tails. heads. heads. tails. heads. heads? oh, no. heads. what? [ shaq ] heads. [ venus ] tails. [ apolo ] tails. . we are four weeks from election eve. the beltway media narratives written six months ago are starting to expire. they have reached and passed their sell by dates. now that doesn't mean that the new beltway narratives have been written. it means that the old ones are
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starting to stink. it may be time to get rid of them. the enthusiasm gap. the idea that democrats are going to lose big. democrats are not motivated enough to go out and vote next month. an okay-sounding theory. the liberals keep complaining. except anecdotes are not statistically significant. this is. how likely are people to vote next month. who says they're definitely going to turn out? that would be a democratic lead. democrats beating republicans in the definite voter category. 50-42. on our bar graph, hopefully,ing loose exactly equal. the t people saying they're motivated are planning to vote for democrats over republicans by eight points. hey, how about that enthusiasm
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gap? the other story we keep being told, it's bad to be a democrat. people don't like democrats right now, not the way they love republicans. the beltway common wis-dumb is you're going to lose simply by your democraticness. that marps gin of error territory there. even the pollsters report the generic republicans have a three-point lead. lee points. the phrase it's a bad year to be a democrat might be a something to say if you're a republican or rooting for the republicans. but it does have a fact problem. the calcified nair tifrs about what is going happen in the elections. democrats are not excited, won't turn out the vote, republicans will. the idea that a generic
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republican is a much more appealing idea to voters than a generic democrat, they're getting thread bare. conservatives are doing their best to flood the political system with anonymously donated money that will wash way every other political dynamic there is. that is possible. you ever seen that liberal bumper stick rer the giant fish being eaten by the even gianter fish. the gianter fish is made up of lots of tiny little fishes. as a child with a fear of pirhanas, that was a scary sticker to me. that ma be what is going on in american politics right now. the washington post has an article on who is spending money
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on what. money is coming from outside groups on the right, with con seb actives outspending the democratic competition 7 to 1. the democratic party raised $16 million last month. it was called a startlingly strong number. a new record for this election cycle. not just about the democratic party pulling in a large amount of cash. they got the money in a way that suggested the democratic base does care about the elections. more than 80% of it came from low-dollar donors online and in the mail. lots of people donating on the interweb machine or by check. 97% of the democratic parties donations were for $200 or less. according to the dnc, the record $16 million haul last month came from more than 250,000 individual donors. compare that to the biggest
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outside political fund raying group on the right, american crossroads, founded and backed by karl rove in the month of august, 91% of gnat group's funding came from billionaires, from two guys who are billionaires and one company owned by a guy that is a billionaire. 91% of the money, three guys. yeah, the republican party has gone away for this election cycle. it's not remotely competitive with the democratic party as party. the democrats are blowing republicans way with a base that is donating frequently in small amounts when ever they can. conservatives are trying to make up the lost ground with outside groups. with the help of a handful of very, very rich people. 250 hourks plus people giving human-sized donations to the democratic party. on the other hand, you have three guys.
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three billionaires funding the outside spending group funding. maybe money will win the day, determine how everything works out. maybe three billionaires can decide this year's e lebss. or maybe all the tiny little fishies in the shape of the big fish will eat the big, fat billionaire fish. this year's elections are very fun so far. [ male announcer ] learn about a free trial offer from abilify. if you're taking an antidepressant and still feel depressed, one option your doctor may consider is adding abilify. abilify treats depression in adults when added to an antidepressant. some people had symptom improvement in as early as one to two weeks after adding abilify. now with the abilify (me+) program, your first two weeks of abilify can be free. abilify is not for everyone. call your doctor if your depression worsens or you have unusual changes in behavior, or thoughts of suicide. antidepressants can increase these
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programming note. you know how sometimes you have to see something for yourself. this year's senate race in delaware is one of those somethings. early tomorrow, "the rachel maddow show" will decamp to delaware. we'll be trying to speak to both candidates. if we can't get christine o'donnell, we would be happy to speak to anyone from her campaign, or anyone that supports her and lives in delaware. so far, only the ones that don't live in delaware will talk to us. we live in hope. and part on of that is moping that they'll find it harder to blow us off if we show up in person. so we're there for delaware bound. very excited about it. it will be hard work. naturally, it requires very good beer. we'll be at the deer park taf vern for a live broadcast and
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watch party and whatever else we can think of that is cool. if you're in the area, check out our website, which is maddowblog. we would love to see you there. ♪ where'd you learn to do that so well. ♪ the new cadillac srx. the cadillac of crossovers. cadillac. the new standard of the world. hi. we're ready to switch our car insurance to progressive. today just seemed like a great day to save. oh, it's not just today. with our free loyalty program, you earn great stuff like accident forgiveness and bigger discounts just by staying with us. oh! ooh! so, what you're saying is, it gets even better with age. oh!
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do you remember when we last took the show to new orleans, went the august and i got -- i got the don't sperse me, bro, t-shirt? one of the most interesting debates on the oil spill is no one knew what the dispersants were. even the labs, they were only labeled with letters and numbers. they had codes. the scientists were not allowed to know what was in them. it was proprietary information. 1.8 million gallons were released into the gulf. trade secret. mama's secret recipe.
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11 herbs and spices. and chance person which brings me to the topic of lighting your own tap water on fire. from "gasland" the process of hydraulic fracturing. aka fracing. if don't frac me bro tee shirts are not already in the works, they're coming. the process by which companies get natural gas by putting water in the ground to drill for gas. the chemicals in it we're not allowed to know about. they're pumping this mystery stuff, like, 8,000 feet underground. the typical place where people get tap what sir about 1,000 feet under ground.
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any chance of this being contaminated there? this brings us to the sight of people lighting their drinking water on fire. don't frac me, bro. joining me tonight, mark ruffalo. thanks for coming in. >> i'm so glad to be here. >> did i get anything wrong in the description of fraking there. >> no you covered it beautifully. >> why are you interested in this issue? >> i happen to live in an area where this is going to be done in pretty mass industrial rollout in upstate new york. i'm raise famgly in calicoun, new york. i heard about this. about two or three years ago, i started studying it. my study took me to dimick, pa. where people had their wells
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poisoned. i saw it for myself. and i saw that people really didn't have a voice. there was no one backing these people up. the local governments had turned their back on them. the state government. and i decided, you know what, for my family, this is my life. these are my neighbors, my people. i have to be involved. >> upstate new york, like portions of pennsylvania, any place there is natural gas locked up in shale rock, that's why companies use this. >> that's right. small pockets of gas locked up in the shale. they crack the shale with high pressures of water and chemicals to allow the gas to percolate to the surface. the chemicals are winding up in people's wells. gas is winding up in people's wells. today in dimick, pa, they have
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to build a seven-mile pipeline through the municipally because the aquaphor has been poisoned. >> the way the companies are getting access to the shale is by offering people money for the mineral rights on their land. they're approaching like farmers and people that own land of any amount. even small amounts of land. >> and the desperation of the farme farmers, a big constituency is dairy farmers, have been losing their farms. there's been 100 suicides in the last two years of farmers in america. we've lost 150,000 dairy farms in the last ten years. they can't make a living wage farming. because of that, they're being forced to lease their lands. no one loves the water and land more than a farmer does. and so i see it as a two-pronged
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problem. so i've been working to -- i love it for tom vilsack to signed a $20 per 100 weight of milk. $14 for 8.6 gallons of milk. it's $1.10 gallon. >> if farmers could make more of a living off farming, they would nlt sell out to these people. are you hopeful things will be done? >> yeah. maury finchy has the fracing act out there that close tz halliburton loophole. there's no regulation for this industry. they do not have to tell us, the 590 chemicals they're putting in the ground. >> that was passed in the bush
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administration. >> the 2005 energy act. dick cheney's legacy to us. just pump it down there. i say, you know, if gas drilling is so safe, then there's though problems where gas drilling, how come there are so many problems with gas drilling? if you people think that what you're putting in the ground is so safe, why not come into regulation under the clean water act and the safe drinking water act? they've been fighting it tooth and nail. >> would it matter, in terms of the companies disclosing what they're doing with this stuff, to me, that's the most incredible thing. they don't have to tell us and it's our drinking water. it's everybody's. it's one big aquaphor out there. >> where i live, that's the watershed for 19 million people. we have the cleanest water in the country coming into new
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york, philadelphia, and parts of new jersey. 5% of our population could have their water poisoned or contaminated by this process and there's no way of regulating it. >> i amazing. >> the delaware river commission, charged with keeping the watershed safe of the delaware river, is on the fast track to begin drilling asap. they want to put 30,000 wells in there. >> you hollering about it may stop them there doing that, i'm getting the sense. >> don't make me mad. you wouldn't like me when i'm mad. >> mark ruffalo, actor, director, and big-time activist on this. pleasure to meet you. >> thank you. >> from fracing to t.a.r.p. also several other wortds i never now existed until last year. please stay with us. is their financial life.
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okay. check this out. on the bottom axis, that's the years we have been shooting into pakistan with our remote controlled flying robots. fifrs time we know we did that was in 2004. on the vertical axis, the number of drone strikes we have done.
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2004, one drone strike. 2005, just one. the year after that. three. the year after that, five. five in the whole year. then things started to pick up. 35 strikes in 2008. the following year, the first year of the obama administration, for mmore than . so far in yi, more than ever. nearly 80 already. if we broke it down further, the more recent numbers are more dramatic. we're getting close to shooting missiles into pakistan almost every day now. why are we doing this many than we did before? you tell me? you're as likely to give me an explanation as anyone else. this is all secret. this is the cia. here's a clue. as to why we're doing this so much more. one more thing to show you. in the different color, the pro portion of the secret missiles
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we're shooting into pakistan going one specific place. the part in red on each of the lines, that's the proportion of drone strikes hitting north waziristan. look at the way the red number goes up. look that. we're shooting at something very freaking specific. all of north waziristan is, like, roughly the size of connecticut. there's something we're trying shoot at. we're doing that with increasing frequency and intensity. at least that's what it looks like when you graph it out. this week end, a travel alert about traveling in europe, brin, france, germany. what is the threat? we don't know. there's word that it has something to do with osama bin laden.
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some reports say five germans were killed. men holding german passports described as militants. what is going on here? michael isikoff joins us. nice to see you. >> good to be with you. >> what do we know about the german passport holders? >> not a whole lot. because we don't know a lot about who gets killed in any of the drone strikes. by definition, these are sflix areas where u.s. intelligence and law endorsemeforcement does have easy access. nor, for that matter, do the pakistanis. that's why we're firg drones there. we can't put boots on the ground. we get claims of strikes, claims of people killed. and in the case, the spak st th
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said today that eight germans had been killed and told people that these are among the germans of pakistani descent believed to be connected with the plot that has everybody worked up in europe right now. >> they're asserting a connection between the threat alert between germany and other european countries and the victims, the targets of the drone strikes? >> yes. absolutely. >> in terms of the intelligence on the ground there, do people in national security talk, even aanonymously, do they talk about why we're having so many more drone strikes? is it because of more intelligence about something specific weaver sho're shooting? >> there are a number of reasons for escalation. part of it is the intelligence of the ongoing plot. over the summer, they captured
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siddiqi, traveling from hamburg to pakistan. he told them after intensive interrogations about a plot that was under way. he was believed to have been traveling with ten other germans from hamburg to pakistan for training. the idea was multiple attacks simultaneous in european capitols along the lines of what happened this mumbai. it was because of increasing pressure to show progress in afghanistan and, given that, in pakistan is a safe haven for a lot of jihad groups aiding the taliban who are killing american troops, particularly the group called the hakani network. affiliated with al qaeda, but not al qaeda. sort of an independent group. mainly focused on pakistan but
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identified as one of the chief dangers to u.s. troops now. a lot general petraeus to show some progress in afghanistan in time for next july. i think that's one reason why we're seeing this escalation. >> politically what you just said is so important i can hardly stand it. if that's the justification for drone strikes, not about new information, new intelligence or intensified strategy about international terrorist groups projecting force against the united states of america, meaning projecting force here or against other western targets but literally about just providing a sort of rear guard action for the afghanistan war, then we're just talking about an expansion of the afghanistan war. we're not talking about the supposed war on terrorism that's a whole separate thing. >> you know, u.s. officials would argue it's all
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intertwined. there is an eerie parallel to vietnam with the secret bombing of cambodia. military in vietnam saw a safe haven that the north vietnamese were using in cambodia, so they tried to use air power to wipe it out, attack it. we can't just fight within the confines of the border. you do see a parallel of what's going on in this escalation in air power in pakistan right now. the question is whether it will be any more effective. >> and whether we get to debate it as a country or pretend this isn't happening because it's a cia secret. incredible stuff. national investigative correspondent michael isikoff. thank you. >> thank you, rachel. coming up barney frank responds to his many, many right wing critics. on this show, democrats, why are you believing what republicans tell you about how you should campaign this year? why are you taking republicans
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advice about whether or not you should campaign on democratic accomplishments this year? what if those democratic accomplishments were accomplishments, stuff that worked. come back, hug it out. that's next. ( baby cooing ) our first grandson. he sees you. ( laughing ) ( speaking korean ) ( children squealing, laughing ) dwight eisenhower: in the goodness of time all people will come to live together in a peace guaranteed. ♪ you may say i'm a dreamer ♪ ♪ but i'm not the only one ♪ - ♪ i hope someday... - good night, baby. ♪'ll join us
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♪ and the world will be as one. ♪ announcer: together. we are the human network. cisco.
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got the mirrors all adjusted? you can see everything ok? just stay off the freeways, all right? i don't want you going out on those yet. and leave your phone in your purse, i don't want you texting. >> daddy... ok! ok, here you go. be careful. >> thanks dad. >> and call me--but not while you're driving. we knew this day was coming. that's why we bought a subaru.
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stufy, can i get a refill? i wanted skim. come on, get your head in the game, stufy! thanks, stufy. man, i love that cookie. according to the common beltway wisdom for this year's elections health reform is supposed to be an awful thing democrats must run away from, an awful, terrible burden democrats sad he would themselves with, an albatross that will sink them on election day, run away fast. whenever the president mentions health care on the stump, he
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does so to huge applause. other democrats like russ feingold have started running ads on health care reform and it polls really, really well. how is it the common wisdom democrats have to run away from it? it's the common wisdom because republicans have tried to make it that. trying to keep as many democrats silent about health care reform as possible. same thing i posit, with the stimulus. it would be a horrible liability to support either of these programs, both of which were such disasters. voters were so angry about them. they weren't disasters. t.a.r.p. ended yesterday, passed during the bush administration. often he had referred to as a bailout, $700 million bailout. only half was disbursed. they projected they would lose
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all of the money. the estimated lost only $66 billion. now as t.a.r.p. ends the treasury says the worst case scenario is that taxpayer stands to be on the hook for all of t.a.r.p. for about $50 million. the best scenario that aig paying back $49 million. if that happens not only will t.a.r.p. have cost far less than anyone imagined it would. if that happens the program almost paid for itself, did pay for itself or conceivably even made a profit. oh, and by the way, it worked. how can you tell? well, have you used an atm recently? did you go to the atm today full of confidence that not only whatever money you had would happen to be there and that you have a bank to go to. thanks, t.a.r.p. those banks too big to fail. oh, god, i hate they were too big to fail. you know what, it worked. they didn't fail. the stimulus, the obama
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administration wanted to save 3.5 million jobs. the congressional budget office said they are on track to save or create 3.5 million jobs. does any of this mean the economy doesn't suck? no, it still sucks. does this mean what the administration is doing on the economy is work sng take a look at this. this is a way to explain it. the gross domestic product declined in the last quarter of 2008 before obama took office. this is the first quarter of 2009. it's getting better. the line there. that's when the stimulus started. then there's the next quarter and the next quarter and the next quarter. that last quarter there. does that still suck? yes, that sucks. is that better than everything else in that graph? yes. yes, it certainly is. yes, t.a.r.p. and stimulus are swear words in this election.
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everybody thinks they are awful, terrible awful things that hurt the economy. not only hurt the economy but will hurt the democrats in this election if they dare to campaign on them. run away from them. that is the narrative. that is the common wisdom. the facts tell a different story. both were the exact opposite of awful. they were successful cost effective programs that do exactly what they were designed to do. instead of denigrating them as swear words, instead of running away from them in the election year, imagine what it would look like if they started to campaign on the actual accomplishments they accomplished, on the good things that big democratic supported programs have done, things like t.a.r.p. and the stimul stimulus. what would that look like? not only for the crop of democrat candidates against republicans trying to get away with characterizations of these programs that don't contain the facts, what would it look like when democrats