hello this is our team more store top stories tonight the euro zone's fate in the balance out for the emergency sublets know the single currencies heads of state could rattle the negotiations over the clock debt crisis europe's banks will have to raise more capital and are expected to have to write off an even bigger chunk of the money which greece owes the. other stories we're following tonight clashes the wall street protests spread police in oakland california to take nearly one hundred activists and chased the rest off with tear gas and before. more mcafee's was probably. reportedly ready to surrender to the war crimes court for the relatives we'll see need to take. up next it's crosstalk where people of our losses guess what awaits post gadhafi libya following the nato backed rebellion.

wealthy british style it's time to write for. the. markets why not scan and. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the kinds of reports. can. start. to. follow you know walking across talk i'm cuter a little you know spacious beginnings libya's national transitional council has announced the country's liberation from the good coffee dictatorship what kind of country libya will now become is anything but clear we will be ruled under islamic laws and will the rule of law prevail in the wake of gadhafi is killing and is

national unity an illusion with so many factions vying for power. can. live. across not libya's future i'm joined by then you also are in washington he's a professor real lecturer at johns hopkins school of advanced international studies also in washington we have paul coring he is a foreign correspondent for the globe and mail and in new york we go to ted rall he is a journalist political cartoonist and author of the anti-american manifesto all right gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want to me very much encouraging but first what are libya's prospects moving forward well you know as you mentioned in the beginning the road ahead of libya is anything but clear and i dare say it is all because of the close city duplicity which has a company and the death of moammar gadhafi as well as the entirely been campaign as the media continues to chew over the ghoulish you tell us about supposed leader steps we're taking back to the history of libya's ties with the west which revealed

. democracy and humanitarianism were very early on the agenda from a time when gadhafi was branded the mad dog of the middle east to a period when his relations with the west warmed and all of the alleged sins were absolved by price in defense of oil deals this is what senator mccain had to say about libya only two years ago times between united states. and not long after libya had established partnerships with a whole slew of western leaders the libyans rose in defiance of gadhafi israel and the west flushed the responsibility to protect card and launched a major mission in support of that uprising seven months later the mission is complete the manhunt for khadafy drawing to a close by these very very balls but the west has helped to arm we came. god. now there's much talk about the future that faces libya where there will be able to preserve its domestic unity elect a government that can show itself to be different from the barbarity which has

marked the rebels' recent actions and finally avoid being doled out to foreign stakeholders very many competing elements of the t.n.c. and different political philosophies i hope those of play back to the democratic way of all the wars the alternative is some ghastly descent into war many say it was the hate for qaddafi which coalesced libya's fractious forces perhaps that is for the fear of seeing the country apart but then to see a village eliel promised on sunday tonight we be under the law sharia and we'll just have to see how can just about to democracy well let's talk about democracy first i'd like to go to ted ted what kind of democracy could you possibly make in libya it is just offered a civil war like this it hardly has any state institutions whatsoever. well obviously anybody who claims to be able to predict the future of this new regime it would just be me telling lies and making up stories but that said you know this is going to be a for medical challenge we're not even really sure if democracy is what the t.n.c.

has in mind now that they have taken power and certainly they're prepared off the origins suggest that that's not necessarily in the cards certainly even if they do they are serious about forming a coalition of all the various factions and tribes and political factions that created the and existed during the forty two year reign of more market there's no telling where this is going to go it is just so hard to cobble together such of vast country and i think a lot of people are unaware of exactly how big libya is and how fractured it is it's not going to be an exact parallel to iraq but i think we can see certain parallels ok paula how does a country like libya that really has me have really many state functions i mean it's it was all based on one man and his family for forty two years i mean don't they have to work on state building before they start building democracy or can you build a democracy without a you know. no i don't think you can and i think perhaps as

a tenant. of the media and outside observers kind of see democracy is something that gets installed or built almost overnight in our societies in transition even in the twenty first century that's a. difficult arduous process and at this stage we need sort of civic civil society peace. the beginnings of economic renaissance democracy maybe of peace and it may be slowly growing peace that starts early but but there's no likelihood of an immediate democracy any more than there's a likelihood of an immediately functioning economy this is going to take a long time progress is going to be slow it will be fitful there will be set backs the nightmare scenarios exist as well ok well that doesn't sound very optimistic daniel if i can go to you what do you think about building a democratic state with respecting the rights of all with this alleged it looks

very clear from the video that it's being it's been put on the you tube and elsewhere of the murder of qaddafi i mean is the national transition council getting are to a good footing there. i'm much more hopeful than my colleagues are i've been in libya i've talked with the libyans they're not going to accept another big hater. i don't think there's any reason why they should accept another dictator it is a long hard arduous road to democracy but they've laid out a road map in their constitutional framework document it's much clearer than what had been weighed out in tunisia which just successfully held its first elections it's much clearer than what has been laid out in egypt the current leadership has made it clear that it will not run for a future office and frankly libya has vast resources not only the oil gas in the

ground but the money in western banks khadafi is going to finance the next regime in libya so there are no guarantees here let me be clear this is a long an arduous road but i think there's a good chance that libya can go down that road it should do it carefully and should do it slowly it shouldn't rush anything but you know the killing of canarsie from westernised was extremely brutal and murderous and illegal as well probably a drink electional off by you want to demean the law if it is where you want to just didn't believe girl is no no i don't think that you can i don't think you can hold your transitional council responsible for what was brutal. murder and made in fact be a war cry but i mean let's let's be clear here this is this is the end of a conflict and it's pretty clear that. there's lots of the fighting

factions were only barely within the chain of command so i mean i think to focus on without defending what. seems to be a murder and a war crime but this time how to paint the entire transitional effort with that it's unfortunate it's terrible. and the murder of protests when we get it also is probably quite convenient isn't it if i go to you ted i mean i guess we won't hear a lot about lockerbie we won't hear a lot of outlandish it and we won't hear about other things that the bush administration and obama administration had to do with the war on terror a passage of bills and oranges i mean leads me to think that a good thing where this is going to really hit it will say it's great that it's not forget the role of the united states in this in what essentially was the murder of could up after all this was a draw an american drone plane that attacked his convoy alongside a french war war plane and these two and so really this was a joint french nato u.s.

murder the fact that he was technically alive as he got out as he scrambled out of his convoy hardly negates the role of the united states in his murder he would not have been murdered had that airstrike not occurred so this is this is a this goes part and parcel to the assassination of osama bin laden in pakistan you know the obama administration's enemies have a way of just being disappeared and dumped into anonymous graves and obviously you can't help but ask yourself if there are not a bunch of inconvenient questions that would be asked at a war crimes trial at the hague that perhaps the big hours would rather not see asked what do you think about that poem you could be here because your duties are a war crimes trial ok paul first and then hand you commerce the new rhetorical e o u one you posed that sort of thing rhetorical all you want you could say you know

could actually it still be in power if there hadn't been a united nations security council mandate i mean what you're trying to do what you're trying to do is hang on what you're trying to do is some. the entire process by stringing together a bunch of things and saying you know. administration is somehow responsible for the deaths of all these people and you can make that argument but you're not going to find any support from me on it jan you want to jump in there but i mean a drone plane is not a so i think that i think this argument that. this calling of of of the killing of khadafi the. the military action against his convoy is murder is just nonsense it's not murder in any way buddies terms i be glad to see your returns are designed you know keegan's to drones are designed to kill a shot as a nation there was no to clear are designed to get people and they are clearly not

very was not at war with libya it was an assassination that was going to take a foreign leader who could have been captured alive. if you want to respond to that and you know. i beg to differ i beg to differ on that subject i just don't think there's any sign that there's a war crime involved here i don't think it's murder i think it's it's part of an ugly process that we call war the murder was in the ambulance so far as i can tell by a young libyan and you know maybe he should be he should be held responsible for that but i just don't think that the attack on the convoy of the selfish never the big time and i i don't believe anybody will ever prosecuted that way. all right gentlemen we're going to short break i'm out of that show a break we'll continue our discussion on libya state because we're starting.

to. see. a very warm welcome to you this is your news today protesters on the walls saying they have. these intense a good chance to try to get the status of the human experiment to explode with the weeks you see miss mathewson would expose the military trying to make sense of the local economy and it's all changed things are financial templates the release is planning to maintain a confidence in markets and. wants to be seems way policies recession looks the

nation's close to sing a song like close close. to fail so we played the game feel a little sick because the u.s. crash in seven and smashed ceiling is close to construction in st the up for sale just programs increase the total economy. the looming. if.

ok. well the measure cost of time here a little too much we're talking about libya after gadhafi. ok. right i'm going to go to go back to paula in washington and the country's awash with arms right now is this a major concern for you as we see some kind of civil society state building going on because you know it's a lot easier to pick up a gun than let it go and plus with being so much with so many people disenfranchised for so many decades they have power right now and the power in

numbers and weapons this is could going to take a long time to disarm this country if it's ever going to happen at all yeah i think that's very true and i think those two elements to. this sort of fact that everybody in libya's armed. the first one is as you say there's a you know unless people are are satisfied quickly and that's hard to do then it's very easy to bring dissatisfaction people put up with you know shortages of food and water and electricity and all the rest of it in the middle of the uprising in the rebellion but very very quickly there will be there mans for normality and in the absence of normality in the absence of power in the absence of salaries in the absence of that sort of thing it will be very very easy to have sort of armed factions taking on each other trying to seize think that that's aspect one and that's dangerous than up the second one is a far more difficult. danger to measure and that is

gadhafi is arsenals include some very modern very sophisticated weaponry in particular thousands maybe as many as twenty thousand surface to air. shoulder fired missiles and that of course is the is the. weapon of choice for any radical group anywhere any terrorist organization the ability to take down civilian airliners and or military aircraft with these shoulder fired weapons is very dangerous. and nobody knows where they are already do you want to jump in there daniel. yes they did a i think it's very important to look at the record here and the record of the national transitional council is that it successfully made arms disappear from being guys see within a couple of months of the revolution there and the way it did that was to was to

ensure people security i was in tripoli last month there were a lot of guns on the street but there were also some policemen and the situation was really settling down and went to a big celebration of martyrs square lots of women and children out in the evening for that celebration the way you get rid of the guns in the hands of the public is to ensure security and i think the n.p.c. has there are a good record on that the question of this. history was there and you so much else right on that all right and i want to jump in there just because we saw the same exact situation in afghan. we saw the same exact situation in afghanistan where. everybody it has weaponry certainly it's possible to build a civil society out of a heavily armed society the united states has eight guns for every man woman and child in it and yet you know the streets are not are not running with blood so clearly it's possible but that said we are talking about it the basic need for law

and order is job one for the new libyan government and that if they can provide that then they're going to be able to move on to the next step which is rebuilding the economy and really building up a political civil society and maybe some form of representative democracy later comes later but you know afghanistan people are still waiting for law and order ten years after the invasion that's the kind of thing that they don't want to see in libya planned when do you think nato still has a role here i mean as a result of the united nations security council nine hundred seventy three chose a side in the civil war the national transitional council do you think that if the national transition council and its current form gets in trouble that nato will continue to support it against its a factions that could rise up in the next two weeks or months in libya is like we've all agreed this country is awash with weapons and there's a lot to fight for and one of them is oil. well you know i don't think so i don't actually think there's a nato role there and i think you'd be

a mistake of nato thought there was one but i do think there's a role for libya's neighbors and for nations in the area i live is going to need lots of help there's no question that this country is rich and it has the resources to provide. excellent living in a fine and commie for its people but that's not going to happen overnight and it's going to be fundamentally important for other arab nations and european nations and america frankly to be there and be able to provide the kind of everything from technical support as you get oil fields running again to. to perhaps aid in setting up. and civil society well you know there well you know women for howard dean and he's been trying to build nations around the world and can you give me one example where it works why would work in libya well you know there are places where

it works and i'm not just talking about. if you look at places like east timor where frankly the australians took the lead it's slow it takes a long time people need to sort of dig in for a generation they need not to be seen is interfering they need to help you need to not do the kind of things like we've seen in haiti where a outside countries bail out every five years and leave another mess and i agree they're going to get it if there is nobody early twentieth century you know plenty of kids in the words doesn't work there are plenty of examples where doesn't work but there's no point being just sort of miserably pessimistic either you can look at the play well i mean his word why should be pessimistic there's so much oil there go ahead ted i mean it's worth fighting hard because they are. it's it's well it's hard to go run being pessimistic you're usually right when you are so it's worked out for me for a long time. unfortunately you know i think that you know going back to the original question i think that the nato coalition would not hold together for that

for a mission that would involve siding with one faction in a civil war it's one thing to to do what they did at this point to try to see to let the t.n.c. seize power essentially replaying what happened in the fall of two thousand and one in afghanistan when the when nato essentially served as the de facto air force for the northern alliance which allowed the northern alliance to seize kabul and take over the country this is exactly what they did in two in two thousand and eleven in libya but we're not going to see that seems easy that's linear that's something that the french and the italians and the americans can get behind but once the spoil for the oil starts it's going to be a whole different matter ok let's bring up another issue that a lot of people talk about is not easy answers are i think he was actually you can answer that i want to talk about these lawmakers a card that everyone likes to bring up. in connection to al qaeda and except maybe you'll go ahead. i think the interesting thing about the state building process in libya is that it's being led by libyans who have been passed for need to help who

have will accept some help from the europeans strong america countries from the united states but they are the ones designing is their program and to me this makes an enormous difference it seems to me with libyans in the lead you have a much better chance for success than if this were an external intervention ok i mean well how do you feel about the members i mean how long will that last economically ok well i was i'd like to look at really the transition council itself because i mean there's still a lot of really murky figures there i mean people that are don't have very good attitudes towards the american cia because of rendition i mean ties alleged ties to al qaeda and what you know will be the flavoring of islam in the country it moves forward i mean we heard on sunday they know there's going to be a lot of peppering about maybe that's just to keep people on board but i mean is this building

a democracy or you know these people going to be elected i mean we're just a very in process here i mean khadafi is gone fine but where do we go from here ted what do you think about that. preventing process is called the elections in a revolution you don't want the valley to be kind of. in a revolution or in a revolution there is no there is no election whoever strongest and manage to kills their opponents is the de facto leader so whether if these people are russians or not worst the libyan people are stuck with them the real question is going to happen in the next stage economically you know libya is a rich country if and when it can extract its high valued crude oil out and but if it doesn't have the capital to do it themselves which it doesn't seem like they will they are going to need to rely on foreign oil concerns the french and the italians who have most of the concessions and got involved essentially as a quid pro quo in this conflict so that's where the contour the problem of its

foreign exploitation and influence come into comes into play as we saw in iraq going back to the one nine hundred twenty s. and that if the thing is that as long as libyans are in charge things night be ok but libyans aren't going to be in charge if they can't control their own resources but you can you would meet with so far do you think you know i mean. you know so far the libyan people with plenty of mistakes and plenty of difficulties through a very long summer is this sort of a ragtag bunch of fighters got themselves organized and got themselves together and you're quite correct with the musical end of data you support right exe well as well apt absolute absolutely and and just as the american revolution had a lot of outside support too you can try and smear the libyan air for it before it gets under way but the reality is very. libyan efforts so far the libyan

people have handled this very well i think they've got an even chance of continuing to handle it well. it's premature to prejudge them i think i think history is a very i think i think it's history shows a lot of reason to be worried i mean you can't really take over another country with foreign assistance and then claim that you have full power a look at the northern alliance in afghanistan to tajik dominated factions took over but they've never been able to close the deal the same thing happened now with shia dominated iraq installed by the united states you know history shows that really in civil war you have to let the factions the the indigenous factions fight things out to a conclusion and that did not happen here there was a lot of foreign interference and so we don't know if the benghazi based rebels can govern this country and bring in and form some form of coalition that will be able

to govern it gentlemen we've run out of hair there's literally just started in libya many thanks my guest today in washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are key so you next time remember crosstalk rules. to . take a. stand. all

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