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tv   Cross Talk  RT  December 27, 2013 5:30pm-6:01pm EST

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that's because a free and open press is critical to our democracy albus. in fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the corporate takeover of our government and across several we've been a hydrogen client handful of transnational corporations that will profit by destroying what our founding fathers once told us mark it on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem trucks rational debate real discussion critical issues facing america ready to join the movement then walk the. street to steal. our strategic vision to try. an undercover team of journalists trying to release which leads documents them out to how the united
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states is trying to. made me your local media more pro-american they encounter fear ignorance and pressure. country blocks the way to information freedom. media stuff on our t.v. . the things he. doesn't . follow when welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered on peter lobo power sign and the road ahead washington so-called peace process to resolve the israel palestine conflict has produced little if any results in fact the palestinians are experiencing excel rated illegal land seizures palestine. it's
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quickly being wiped off the map is it time to accept a one state solution and or look to global institutions like the u.n. to replace the current negotiating framework. cross-talk the palestine israel conflict i'm joined by my guest so ryan support ehrlich in irvine she is an independent researcher and writer and in new york we cross to norman finkelstein he is a political analyst and author of cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it and norman you've been a great scholar of the so-called peace process of the last twenty years coming to the studio today i noticed that the u.s. secretary of state has gone to the middle east to kick start talks well i could have read that headline almost any month of the last twenty years so norman isn't it time to start a new format because it can't go in nowhere i don't quite agree with peter
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we have to be careful about what's happening now because i do think it is going somewhere but not the place where justice would more to go right now secretary of state kerry president obama and various other parties to the conflict seem pretty optimistic that they can ram down the road to the palestinians is really tied supplement of the conflict the palestinians have never been weaker than hamas is now a no or the power of the so-called palestinian authority is totally dependent upon the united states and europe to stay alive to support it economically the palestinians are in a very difficult situation probably so they said they have never been weaker and now the united states along with the e.u. incidentally united states and the e.u. think there is a historic opportunity to resign. the conflict solved in such
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a way that the poll students were left with virtually nothing ok so ryan so what kind of agreement is that how could you have an agreement like that with no justice . i honestly don't believe this time so going anywhere and i don't think they're intended to go anywhere is just lip service if you look as mr obama's speech in two thousand and eleven the word he actually mentioned the nine hundred sixty seven borders with some swaps it was intended for the palestinians not to ask for recognition at the united nations and after that mr netanyahu came to the united states and i'm sure your viewers would know that congress has far more powers or is the most powerful branch of the u.s. government he came and here dress the united states congress in fourteen men as he got twenty nine standing ovations in which he categorically refuse to recognize those boundaries and i think it's very important to understand that there's long as
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there is an alley it that means that every jewish person from anywhere in the world can go and live in israel then israel is to continue to expand and is doing so at the expense of the palestinians with american money so no i and for the peace talks i think norman would certainly know the reputation of martin indyk he worked for a packet then he started the washington institute for near east policy to give a clear image to the pro israel. doctrine here in the space and he is not a person that would be suitable for negotiating peace talks if peace talks are to take place and certainly not somebody is biased and is pro israel is. ok norman you know when i saw you on democracy now with mr martin and he wasn't very pleased to see you i remember. could you report react to what we just heard in irvine because
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i mean when you look at something somebody like martin indyk i have to keep being reminded is he negotiated with the americans or she negotiated for the israelis because it's hard to tell. well i think that one has to look at what the rhetorical position of people like prime minister netanyahu netanyahu is and what their actual position is if you look at the negotiations that took place in annapolis in two thousand and eight it was quite clear what the israeli position was in a word or in a nutshell what israel wants is approximately ten percent of the west bank the area behind the wall that it's been building taking in the major settlement blocks that israel wants a nullification of the palestinian right of return basically an international solution of the refugee question which doesn't allow palestinians to return to what is now the state of israel those are israel's two key demands and the opinion of
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the united states and israel is and also as i have to say always be your opinion union the position now is let's resolve the conflict according to the israeli terms that is not ten yo who make a grand show that he's withdrawing from ninety percent of the west bank to the ten percent behind the wall and in exchange for this grand concession by the israelis the palestinians are going to have to give up the right of return that's basically how the theater the drama is going to play itself out and if you look at yesterday's for example reports yesterday in the israeli press the e.u. made a statement it said to israel and the power authority you better get serious about negotiations now because if you don't resolve the conflict we're going to
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seize subsidizing the projects no bus bank so basically the e.u. is now colluding collaborating with the us. turning the screws on the problem is that i didn't see the purpose behind the current murderous blockade of gaza to break the will of the people of god so they repudiate hamas the palestinian authority will then claim to speak for all the palestinians the palestinian authority will then because who really has no choice concede to to the us is really demands which the e.u. is going along with ok but so ryan it's very interesting what norman has to say going back to annapolis but i don't see mr netanyahu he's not there's not enough pressure on him to change course as a matter of fact if you look at israeli media very close closely and i know norman looks at i mean if the israelis see that they have a whole lot of cards here ok maybe netanyahu and obama don't get along very well
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but netanyahu does have the congress ok and you know we i don't see a lot of sticks coming out from a pac i mean you know iran is one issue but you know when you look at the palestinian israel conflict congress is really very close to netanyahu position here and i don't see anything changing in ok the european union will drop funding that's not going to change the israeli position not one iota i bet. you are going to let me go to iraq you're really going to go ahead. the europeans talk about this a great deal and even as for mr obama's position here when he was running for office in two thousand and eight he promised and i'm divided jerusalem to israel and its capital and even president bush has not said anything so outrageous and mr obama keeps on his administration and they keep increasing aid to israel it's not as if you know they're playing good cop bad cop but it depends how seriously you
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take obama. you know not long ago to three years ago at the state department even a science of money to middle east to memory. media research institute which was founded by an israeli army the idea and it was to pinpoint anti-semitism i mean the israeli is their positions are so backed by the united states and the e.u. is their greatest partner trading partner if things are not going to change until there is awareness amongst the people around the world in america people are simply too ignorant they have been brainwashed they have freedom of speech but they don't have freedom of thought all the information they have about what's going on in palestine and with israelis is what the media tells them and the media is squarely in the pockets of the neo cons the think tanks run issues and even the universities
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there is no freedom to discuss the issue of israel and palestine but most importantly we keep thinking about seeing a pact to seems that it's just a muscle it's the soldier all the same tanks the the anti-defamation league hudson washington is to new policies stop on center these are the people doubt that actually turn out these policies and they're implemented and as as as you said i mean mr obama will be gone the next president can easily overrule what ever he implements so in the important thing is to have congress deal with this situation and congress is reluctant congress takes this orders from israel it does not serve the american people and to me this is treason this is betrayal and yes they managed to get away with it chuck schumer of new york senator of new york stands up and serves on the guardian of israel instead of standing up and telling the american
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people that he is there to serve them he says is the shore of israel the guardian and many other such senators and congressional members ok let me let me let me let me all right i want. you want to react to some of the. well peter i'm going to quote someone who i know you don't like so much name me namely vladimir lenin. and one said that the sense of politics lenin once said the essence of politics is the concrete and now suits of a concrete situation ok and i think the important thing now because we're heading towards a historic turning point and we have to be very careful about what's happening we have to be concerned about what's happening we have to concrete concretely analyze this concrete situation the fact of the matter is secretary of state kerry is nobody's fool he would not invest so much time and so much energy in
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resolving the conflict unless he thought there was a realistic possibility that it can be resolved the last thing kerry wants now norman norman i'm going to let you can't help it norman i want to go to one short break i'll let you could genuinely return after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the palestine israel conflict state with money. lead. the plentiful supply was terrible they come up very hard to
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take on a ledge again let along here a plumber has never had sex with her make their lives let's play. lists lists lists lists legislate. lists list. of. i've got a quote for you. it's pretty tough. they wait substory. let's
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get this guy like you would smear that guy stead of working for the people to choose the mainstream media we're pretty much on the bridegroom's vision. of the. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the palestine israel conflict. ok norman i come back to you in new york let me i want you to react to something
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a lot of people tell me that study this conflict that they say that if israel stops its colonizing settlement agenda in the west bank and further it risks the very nature the very existence of israel because it must continue down this path because it's become its own true identity. no i don't really think or you know there is this tendency to look at countries in terms of this notion of original sin that is to say israel was born in sin and therefore have to live in sin and therefore there is no possibility of the changing any state has within the possibilities of change i lived in the united states through the civil rights era when i was growing up in the early one nine hundred fifty s. black people were still being lynched in the american south i lived through a transfer medicine transformation such that the president of the united states is
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now african-american if you look at the first half of the twentieth century without trying to excuse any of the other great powers i think it's fair to say that the most motorist and racist powers on earth in the first half of the twentieth century were germany and japan but if you look at b.b.c. world service pose from the last twenty years when the countries around the world when the public opinion around the world is asked the question which countries in the world have the most positive the most favorable impact on international relations if you look at these b.b.c. pose believe there are no every year germany is number one and japan is number two or japan is number one and germany is number two countries can change ok that it's no mention or many of my years here in your image but if i use
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your logic then if i use your logic then israel must be invaded and conquered and occupied like germany and like japan to change its behavior that's the logic. well not exactly peter because i began with the example of the american south and you can also take the example of south africa and those two in. that required was a mass popular nonviolent movement supported by international public opinion those were the key ingredients that have to be a mass popular nonviolent movement with a large amount of international support and i think the same formula that worked in the american south and worked in south africa i think that formula can also work to end the israeli occupation ok so if i go back to irvine a i have to i will agree with norman that countries can change their countries can change for the worse look
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at the i think the better ones would probably agree with that i think you know africa africans that are all so ended up in israel somehow would probably agree that things are changing for the worse because each government gets more and more right wing and more and more racist what use can you hear on israeli television would be is for begging on american television because some officials are so blatantly racist. i'm just sure and again i do agree is normal also that countries can change but they can only change if there's a will to change israel does not have this will if you look at the popularity of mr netanyahu in israel his popularity is an all time high after he basically stuff and mr obama about the you know to state solution and norm himself has was kind enough to pass a youtube video of how israelis are using children young children teaching them
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hatred discrimination and the law to kill arabs lebanese gazans so there is no wills are to change and america's encouraging this by allowing it to happen by overriding every single u.n. security council resolution if you go to the jewish virtual library they they gladly and proudly mention how many times the u.s. has vetoed un security council resolutions so there can be no change when there's no will and one of the most important factors is israel has a need to expand it because it wants to embrace more and more people at the moment you know we were talking talks may go somewhere but the children of gaza the people of gaza are walking in sewage to go to school if there's a school to be found because there's no fuel why is there no fuel in one thousand nine hundred nine there was no massive amounts of gas in gaza that british gas was going to explore israel put a stop to it sharon said i will never buy gas from gaza they want to own it they
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want to own the water in the region because thus if you expand and you have land people need water you make import fuel but you can't do it with water so they wanted to get water from turkey and in order to do that iraq and syria has to be eliminated so there's no stop to this and their own as you say you hear things on israeli television you don't hear in america and america sanitizes ever. this thing the american people continue to hear from their officials that israel is our democratic ally in the region that is so false it is not an ally is costing america so much money it's bankrupted america fiscally morally and politically and it's not an ally it's is just destroying the countries around and it's destroyed america's standing in the world and the people of america need to be informed he says nobody is talking about what's happening in gaza in west fact what israel is doing we're talking about all other things here in america there's
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a deliberate attempt to keep the people ignorant god forbid the americans should stand up and say i don't want my money to go to people who committing heinous crimes borderline genocide and i can't eat here i'm hopeless but i'm contributing not only to the people of israel that are there at the moment but anybody who wishes to come with us from africa whether it's from asia they can everybody can go there and my tax dollars will fund them this is what americans don't know and it's it's about time that the other media started concentrating on this but then of course the media goes well we know who the ownerships are norman you know convince me that netanyahu is going to pull you could he goes to china. try to convince me. peter i think there is a misunderstanding here and i'm doing my best to try to clarify it number one just let me get back to the point that was just made ok of course i agree that israel
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unless it's forced to won't change the african-american luzhin the frederick douglass he famously said power never concedes anything without a demand never has it never will so of course pressure has to be applied to israel in order to get there to to act in accordance with international law i have no doubt about that that's why i said there has to be a mass movement from below there has to be nonviolent and there has to be a lot of international popular public opinion support to get israel to budge so on that point there is no disagreement between any of us now on the question of not in yahoo you have to remember that israel if there were an academy award for best dramatic performance by a country israel would win every year it's a real it's
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a theater and not to know who of course not to know who is the star of the theater so i said a few moments ago that we have to distinguish between israel's rhetorical position and its actual position now simply livni who was the foreign minister in two thousand and eight she's repeatedly said that the wall israel is building the wall is our final border israel wants about ten percent of the west bank which includes some of the most orrible land it includes the critical water resources it includes east jerusalem and very sickly it try sext the west bank leaving the palestinians a bad. so effectively they want to turn percent of the world but not turn yahoo star of the show he pretends israel wants all of the west bank and then during
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the go here issues to claim will be israel's making a heart wrenching concert sheehan gives of ninety percent of what was going but are giving up ninety percent of the world spurring israel will then get to keep all it really warns exactly as livni keep saying the war is our final border israel wouldn't be investing billions and billions of dollars into building this wall if it want to target story beyond the wall ok if i go back to. you know i mean a i had a hard time doing it's not is go ahead go ahead go ahead. jump in i'm sorry if it's not just the war and the west bank and gaza they're in lebanon now or syria actually because it's syria golan's there they're drilling gaster they're taking
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somebody else's gas and oil they're not content i mean it's it would be enormous far too bright and far too well informed to be naive enough to take the words of an israeli leader when it comes to their expansion and their expansionist policies they are never content they are always asking for more and it's in the end this for some bizarre world not for some bizarre reason the united states always gives in to them it's become this they've become like the monster of frankenstein i mean the united states made israel what it is today with all that support and now it has instilled the monster turns around to dr frankenstein and says obey me and america's obeying and nothing will change unless the mentality yes i'm hung. presented with with norm that we need a grassroots movement but there will be no grassroots movement when people are ignored when people are misinformed deliberately this is censorship one thinks the
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censorship is is just cutting out news but it's misinformation as well and americans are not being a chance given a chance to learn what's going on normally even in universities you know this you cannot discuss israel in universal right i'm not on this very critical point i'm sorry we've run out of time many thanks to my guests in irvine and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t so you next time remember cross talk to. me.
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and. i would rather ask questions to people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on our t.v. question. i know c.n.n. the m s n b c news have taken some not slightly but the fact is i admire their commitment to cover all sides of the story just in case one of them happens to be accurate. that was funny but it's close and for the troops in the might think. it's because one whole attention and the
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mainstream media work side by side the joke is actually on we're. going to come. out our teen years we have a different approach. because the news of the world just is not this funny i'm not laughing dammit i'm not. ok i thought. you guys talk to the jokes well handled it makes sense that i've got a. it's
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going on over on i'm abby martin and this is breaking the set and the cold war is technically over looks like a new kind of arms race is alive and well so european leaders have just announced they're forming a drone club decision a and decades in the making and france germany and several other nations are pouring money into a new generation of armed drones to rival those used by the u.s. and israel looks like all of america's unmanned kills are leading to a bad case of drone and b. but it's not just europe that has set its sights on these deadly robots for the last few years iran has been working on its own drone fleet this week the islamic republic on the veil that's the largest armed unmanned aerial vehicles to date capable of.


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