it is a problem because we need a public discussion a much more intensive discussion about whether to join nato or not and how we get sweden to contribute again to disarmament including nuclear evolution and formalised speaking sweden is of course and no one aligned and natural country and yet if we look at some of the recent statements and actions taken by swedish foreign minister carl bildt who played a very hawkish role i have to say in the ukrainian crisis. you know you think that sweden is more fervently problem nato than some of nato is a founding member is how do you explain these southern saved from the challenged to defacto interventionism where is taking up the neutrality because we are formally nonaligned in sweden bought neutrality was scrapped long ago the argument was an awfully end of the cold war and the dissolution of the soviet union you could not be neutral because there were no two part is to be neutral between this of course is intellectual luncheons we could still have neutral states who would be helpful

for instance as mediators in the international criminal conflict areas around the world so how did it happen well there were people who want to sweden to finally say goodbye to everything that sweden or regionally stood for and to get closer to the united states and nato this was run particularly by the social democratic party and prime minister goran passion. and foreign minister anna lindh at the time it was a policy shift simply yeah absolutely and i wonder how much of this policy shift this u. turn and swedish foreign policy could be really attributed to the power brokers some of the names you just mentioned but i would like to bring out the name of carl bildt once again because he's ties to the euro's military industry our well known it's not so secret and. he's believed to have made millions on the war in iraq because i have. or are his previous position as

a former board member at the meese an investment firm and. i guess he views on foreign intervention haven't there changed much since then so i wonder if this u. turn this shift that we mentioned earlier is more institutional in the chair or simply due to the influence of particular individuals well that's a combination of course i mean culbut is not responsible for the overall change will sweden's position on international affairs but at the moment of course of the last six seven years has been the foreign minister and a former prime minister two i have been surprised myself because it's not really statesmanship to compare russia with nazi germany in the case of of you crying and a very hawkish attitude also and founded attitude to the question of georgia in two thousand and eight but i do not like to see foreign policy in general as just run by individual interests and there is an inference of course from that but

this is a political ideological struggle and as i said to you the if the argument is that you can't be neutral you cannot have your own policy anymore you must belong to one camp you know it's a very limited intellect that decides that but if you run a operate on that assumption then you end up where you end up namely in confrontational policies is what i would like to see as a peace researcher is the diffusion of this tension in europe and the and a solid negotiated solution to various problems speed syria or you cry and bought and that's what we have to say you know if what you have on your selves are fighter planes and a lot of militaristic equipment then that is what you choose rather than intelligent conflict resolution. to put it crudely if you only have a hammer in your toolbox you will see all problems in your home as something that has to be hammered down sweden has this reputation of where you know democratic.

progressive and peace promoting society i mean if americans and russians agree on anything it is that our image of sweden has this enlightened democracy and yet. you know when you know when you talk about people like mr build again somebody who made money on the war on the killing of hundreds of thousands of individuals you know in this country of russia you know we are always criticized for corruption and democratic record but i don't think even in russia a person like this with such a track record would rise to the position of foreign minister let alone prime minister so i wonder if swedes see any problem with their newly found foreign policy direction and the man who spearheads well let me tell you this is not a swedish problem or a russian problem only it's a global problem there's something called the military industrial media academic complex this is structures outside democratic control as eisenhower said already in the fifty's and we have the same in sweden we have it in denmark i think i think

it's time the world finds out that well of course scandinavian countries are democratic and real and civil welfare oriented and immigrant you know the image you say we have but if i may remind you denmark has participated in for in wars in all over the place since one thousand nine when we bombed yugoslavia we've been of occupying power for years when the present secretary general of nato on this for us was and was a prime minister of denmark we are enough to understand we were a major bomber together with norway in libya and we were the only country together with friends who thought that it was a good idea to follow there are the american idea of bombing or intervening militarily in syria least interest money interests they are very close allies between money people corporate people and politicians they are supported by in the majority of the western so-called free media and there's nothing to be surprised about what i'm concerned about is that it. always

a small people around the world who pays the price for these policies and i don't think that we can have a democracy if we continue to have the mean mark of the military industrial media academic complex it goes against democracy because you go out in any street anywhere in the world and what people want is peace but what they get is militarism instead and military conflict resolution we've never solved the problems in the first place and you look at iraq you look at afghanistan you look at libya lucas syria you look now wherever you turn where military has been used in war has been you know the solution things are worse today than they were before my foundation is working for the for the norm of the united nations charter which everybody has forgotten and violates from east to west north and south that peace shelby established by peaceful means the charter of the united nations is a gandhian gandhian charter based on the idea of scrapping war abolishing war and when humanity has problems with each other we negotiate we talk we consult

we facilitate we treat each other as human beings instead of bombing each other this is a civilizational problem that is much bigger than sweden and college bills i'm sure it's much bigger than sweden and call bill that he had as he just pointed out and that sort of accident seems to be spreading all across this candy navvy an arab peninsula one country your neighbor finland is also discussing a possibility of joining nato and of course we're both finland and sweden these no one alignment approach was a very cost effective way off ensuring that there is security during the cold war does it mean the fact that they are talking publicly talking about joining nato doesn't mean that they see more today russia as a bigger threat than the soviet union oh you know well that that's a perverse that you have today that that people arguing we need to join nato today when we don't have a cold war and we don't have a soviet union we don't have a warsaw pact whereas they could survive as neutral states when these things existed this is bizarre to me. i mean this is pure propaganda the really russian

military expenditures of seven seven percent of nato now if we could survive as neutral states there was switzerland austria finland and sweden at the time without own defenses and not being part of the nato i wonder why on earth we at all need nato today when the warsaw pact as does a bit but secondly i also wonder how could we survive at that time when tension was much bigger when there were much more nuclear weapons in europe etc so i mean this is bad intellectual thinking but i tell you the ministers of foreign affairs and defense and prime ministers at least here are spending more money on spin doctors and marketing their on intellectual views than they do on listening to experts and people who happen to know something about these things that's part of the problem and a war yeah i agree with you on the propaganda side of it but i think these approaches actually paying off because if sweden or fender amp were indeed to join nato that

would provoke some sort of reaction on the part of russia at least in far as far as military calculus is concerned so there would be certain changes and then military posturing for example more troops on the border you know some of their rockets will have to be. repositioned let's put it this way so after all these imagine threat could become a very real threat at least as far as military planning is concerned well yes i don't disagree with you i have always been against confrontations humiliations speaking down to people threats and all that because it doesn't help conflict resolution there is not one minister in europe who has advisers who know something about conflicts they may have international lawyers they may have military expertise diplomatic expertise to advise them and guide them they have nobody who knows about nonviolence come for the resolution conflict psychology or anything like that while there. the military academies and research centers in both

your part of the world and our part of the world there is no peace academies you can go on like that there is no resources set off for creating peace by peaceful means and so what i would like to have rather than continuing on. and south none of it can be solved by military means or fighter aircraft or satellites or nuclear weapons really cherry is outdated it should go like cannibalism and slavery and child labor it doesn't belong to civilization mr are you totally agree here but we have to take a very short break here when we come back peace as mr oberg just pointed out is

still touted as a universal value but to all find compromise for geo political ambitions have war and conflict become policy tools that's coming out in a few moments on worlds apart.

there was very interesting because the word dropped out of the sky the roar. of the word shift across a few degrees. of the circle of about the speed but you know just astronomical speeds. coming along these college face.

a pleasure to have you with us here on our team today. welcome back to worlds apart to read. discussing peace and security in europe and beyond with peace researcher. mr over just before the break we were discussing nato expansion plans and you can argue that this whole crisis in ukraine a region aided from you know somebody is decision to take ukraine into nato some belive this is at least. russia's view of the problem and while so far ukraine is proving a bit hard for nader to swallow i wonder if sweden and finland could become leaders consolation prizes how likely do you think it is that sweden or famine will join nato in the near future and doesn't really matter at all because as far as i understand swedish government is already caught parading with nato without the

formal endorsement of its public in the last twenty years sweden has definitely in all indicators politically militarily technically it cetera moved closer to the u.s. to to nato so close that people you will hear in sweden now who say as well why don't we get married when we are anyhow living as fiancés. and so it is presented sooner or later as will be presented sooner or later as the only option and that is why the threat from russia is needed you know most people think that you make an objective analysis of threats and then you build your defense according to what threatens you it's the other way around you have a military industrial media academic complex as i mentioned and to have that running you construct your enemy is speaking about this very close relationship you

just alluded to you know these three ounce a day dynamic i think earlier this month it was rated government reach granted nato and the united states. the right to use its airspace for. you know flying missions connected to a crane so that seems to be like a favor that you would. stands only to a very very close partner but as far as i understand the majority of the swedish public is still against this very cozy relationship yes you know you're quite right there is a clear hesitancy in the swedish population about the member full membership and that has to do with two things it will be very foreign and very difficult for anybody to persuade swedes that swedish troops should operate militarily abroad in a crisis situation you know paragraph five of of article five of nato secondly it will be close to impossible i think to persuade sweets to accept nuclear weapons

and if you join fully you become responsible for nato as nuclear policy is on as you know this is greatly great great. a reason for hesitancy among the people but you can still threaten there is something called fear all of g. if you if you make people believe that certain countries are going to swallow you tomorrow you can make people accept almost anything and it is that propaganda that i'm trying with my foundation and my colleagues to stand up against because intellectually it's not correct it's not truthful well i think it's also not correct on humanitarian grounds are you just mentioned how swedish foreign policy has become more militaristic but isn't that also true of the broader western approach because you know the blodgett in your craned is not the first occurrence i mean here we have seen similar. wars or conflicts being ignited in the balkans in

iraq and libya in syria you name it and it seems that europe cannot haue but being dragged into all sorts of what myers and wars has more become something that no longer scares your yeah that's part of it you know if you run wars all the time here and there it becomes a kind of a normal thing the other thing is that medion doing a great disservice to humanity by always covering war but never covering peace we don't have conflict journalism we have war reporting we have nobody who is interested in peace building and how countries solve their problems before without too weaponry and without warfare this is a disease the drama of war is so fascinating for media and many media owned by corporations that also produce weapons and you see the circle of this media complex that i have mentioned so yes but there is one good change and that is that wars between countries has gone down statistically whereas we have an upsurge in

internal violence in many countries and there you have the argument of humanitarian intervention that if you have no reason to use weapons anymore if you can't find a place on a reason to exist then you say oh we need the military to bring in humanitarian aid and stop genocide and things. that the first nonsense about this was cost of zero where the idea of humanitarian intervention was sold of course falsely because it had nothing to do with the genocide there although there were violence i was a mediator there between. albanians for four years so i know that place quite well but there was not a genocide planned but what the americans did was to build the bomb steal base three months after the bombing of nato in ninety nine and mr over it i think you made a point in one of your public lectures that the west for some reason lacks these institutional learning you know they said billeted to analyze previous military engagements and take it and you know to take that knowledge into account while planning future military operations and here in russia we sort of have difficulties

understanding why the western memory so short isn't because every new generation of decision makers believe that they are smarter than their predecessors or perhaps is it because war and conflict have become very cynical policy tools this is a tool of advancing your geopolitical i've done that is that not yes and i think you you have you have a kind of. normalization of violence you train young man in violence you have violence in the media you have violence in the entertainment world you have violence in books you are going to any bookstore in the world or still books will be about history and wars you can go on like this we are living in a militarist culture and we don't even see that we are if you take syria if you take libya we could have solve these problems i know it's a provocative statement i'm sure we could have solve these problems without weapons but what do we do we pump in weapons from all sides and believe that that helps

anybody now you have hundred sixty thousand people and millions of refugees that's a result of that mr overcast somebody who reported both from libya and syria i don't think it's a provocative statement in fact i believe and that's maybe a controversial statement to say that. media especially in the west are sort of institutionalized to promote conflict because you know from the very beginning they turn to for trade conflict a very stark binary picture you know these are the good guys these are the bad guys we're always on the right side of history and at the end rather than trying to you know mediate and how the communities come together they and up exacerbating the differences and promoting the conflict in the long run i think you are very right to publish your chart touching some something which i would say is cultural deep culture deep cosmological it is part of the christian culture to divide things into two left wing right wing male female them and us and etc i've always argued you

know with a little smile that we ought to have more hindus and buddhists and atheist doing conflict resolution because they are able to see these things as did not divided up into but maybe in thirty there were not two parties the serbs and the rest and yugoslavia for instance but that's how it was interpreted now we see again of confrontation and binary as you say the west versus putin and russia. and it's always this there is only these parties there's the good guys and the bad guys and you know there is no conflict in the world where all the good signs is on one all the good guys are on one side and all the bad guys on the other this is probably ganda and this is deep culture it is something we're not aware of is not true because i don't think that old all journalists are militarist or want war they are simply not aware that conflicts are much more complex and may have thirty parties and not two major padrone but also about all the history books exist for that exact reason to learn something from history and they've journalist decided to go to war

zones i think it's incumbent on them to try to educate themselves now are you mention propaganda just a while earlier and i would totally agree with you that there is a very deliberate attempt to present this conflict over ukraine in black and white pictures black and white collars rather but at the same time what i think we can see both in germany and france in the united states there in this sense to be also divided in public opinion not all people are buying this very black and white picture i want i wonder if we can take that as a positive sign that some people in western societies are actually developing in antidote to all dads middle militarists rhetoric that their governments and their media have been feeding them for years oh you are absolutely right and that opinion has existed all the time what our problem is and that opinion the ninety eight percent of humanity who wants peace and not weapons and war they don't get through

the democratic process because the military system is outside democratic control secondly what you're pointing at here is a specific phenomenon that i think we're seeing the shias and it's a clear indication one after the other that the u.s. empire is slowly but surely going down the u.s. is going down because and you can return be in macro historians and everybody else is going down all employers go down when they own. over militarize when they lose legitimacy in the eyes of other people when they over extend their power and you know you have six seven hundred base facilities and under thirty countries now by the u.s. around the world and all these of course at some point forced upon and i take it as a very good sign and an indicator that america was not able to stop a war on syria which was threatened again and again partly sang's to putin's you know presidents intervention and the idea about chemical design mementoes syria but

the nato allies did not come up and follow the u.s. in let's have another war in syria now you crying is falling over the western policy that is falling apart also because it is hot headed it was a coup d'etat attempt in kiev by the west and all these sanctions which is now you know have no relevance in this case sanctions is not a tool it's not a tool in iraq it was not a true tool in iran that serves any good purpose or conflict resolution so it's falling apart but i missed over it as it's falling apart and also costing a lot of lives as it cost in syria as it costing in ukraine and i'm sure there will be some people will suffer from those sanctions and russia i'll be to hopefully know their great number but we all know how difficult it is to put in and to the conflict for example syria mean that we mentioned this country several times throughout this program but i want to if you have any tepes on how tall white

starting one because if we go back to the situation in ukraine most historians most political analysts would agree that it had all the makings all the potential conflict you know divided populations strategic geography a struggling economy and yet for more than two day caves up until the last year the elites in ukraine avoided that conflict do you have any tips on how not to start their war. yes it's very simple peace is something we can learn conflict resolution is something we can learn if we have academies if we have school education the university courses if you could take a amaze in all countries in conflict understanding and conflict resolution we could phase out the military because the reason people use military falling to war is that they don't know better they are conflict illiterates they don't know the letter and the sentences of peacemaking but mr oberth maybe if that's exactly the opposite maybe they have all the in the knowledge about the conflict and they're

using that knowledge to. continuous turning travel around the world because it seemed to me that there are people have become political categories rather than humanitarian categories and i wonder how we can make them a universal how we can make peace a universal value once again that would be put above all out of considerations including political considerations while i would be a little disagreeing with you here i think a lot of people that's exclude those who want war and who are psychologically mentally ill who want war and like love to see killing but i think most people accept war ordinary citizens and all that they accept their politicians going to war because they don't see alternatives and therefore it's not enough to criticize wars and vet weapons or interventions what we need is somebody who say is how it should be done instead and that's what my foundation and a few others are doing we saying how it should be done instead not just trying to sizing because criticizing he's a dead end if you don't have solutions ok mr overton fortunately we have to wrap it

up i really appreciate you being on the show as well as there weren't that you've been doing all around the world especially in the balkans b.d.d. among those communities thank you and to our viewers please keep the conversation going on out of you tube and facebook pages and i hope to see your again same place same time here on worlds apart. in december two thousand and ten. more likely to be raped in college than in the real world. i didn't think people did that to each other when they knew each other i thought rape was a stranger in the bushes. girl complaining about the son of an alumni. millions of

dollars through a school why listen to somebody who's going to lose money at the school of schools that make money based decisions are much more common than they would ever admit publicly. of a little piece of trying to clear the square. people are going to. want to end your life or destroy treating everybody. somehow made no no law no weapons. why would any.

most of. these cases eat women. sometimes for nothing. this season and simple. it's not just the story you'll be judged if you see a stage eight lupita but speech was set in. just soldiers this spits no soldiers russia's internal special forces but being tough and good with a gun may not be enough for these extreme terrorists. only the most capable will be to the end. of. those whose dreams can melt away exhaustion all ranks put themselves through fire smoke and water but not for money promotion goals that

. is the coveted crimson bearer. to genetics but eugenics vulgarize ation of darwin science punishment for an uncommitted crying i was sterilised on them for believing in eighty feebleminded still today for the few i don't know why. but i still don't know why genetic improvement through forced sterilization the basis for nazi ideology don't stop at just sterilizing and now go to the point of death. for years rarely discussed. till now i'd really rather not talk about that right. i'm abby martin the stories we cover here are not going here in iraq other big story extra that lives there is a reason they don't want to now. be completely out now let's break the

set. a russian humanitarian convoy is finally on the move after being stalled for three days. with civilians trapped in the east conflict zone is undergoing checks at the border. in the u.s. town of ferguson with police using tear gas military weapons and the power of arrests protests. by an officer have lasted almost a week. and the kurdish fighters attempt to push back a slum and stage i made claims all sides of the conflict benefiting from american.