tv Cross Talk RT August 27, 2014 5:29pm-6:01pm EDT
for the u.s. to issue what it calls salacious payments to compensate victims for errant strikes as if he money makes it all ok for instance according to a twenty thirteen pro publica report the u.s. paid out almost a million dollars to victims in afghanistan but that was over the course of a full year and covered many strikes unlike the case of the recent yemeni. which is outrageous is that anyone in the u.s. military would contend that no civilians were killed when officials at the cia have even admitted that civilians were probably killed what is outrageous is caitlin hayden spokeswoman for the national security council insisting on calling civilians noncombatant in her e-mail statements about the yemeni payments as if that intentional switch of words somehow race and the fact that innocent people died in the attack u.s. officials might try to write her of their way out of admitting guilt in this case but these payments now given the world over
a million reasons to believe otherwise tonight let's talk about that by following me on twitter at the rest of. those c n n the most and b c news. is but. their commitment to cover all sides of the story just in case one of them happens to be. that was funny but it's closer to the truth of my i think. it's because one full attention in the mainstream media works side by side the group actually on here. i don't or teen
the low in welcome across for all things considered i'm peter although your claim is running out of many things money time and patience there's a growing recognition in europe do you cranium civil war must and through negotiations. have the political will and does washington really want peace. crosstalk the crisis in ukraine i'm joined by my guest in london he is head of the london bureau for voice of russia also in london we have alexander clocks and he is the founder of global political insight and here in moscow we cross to michael hughes he is a journalist and foreign policy analyst who often writes for the huffington post and the examiner right gentlemen crosstalk rules a fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage
dimitri in london if i can go to you as we sit down here with the presidents of ukraine and russia have met in minsk there is no outcome of any possible one on one but they shook hands at least that ok. out of time is certainly out of money and a lot of people losing patience particularly the europeans particularly anglo merch . well where are we in this situation right now and we all know that winter is looming and russia and ukraine have no gas deal. well where in the middle of a few conflicting lines i think. during her recent meeting with poroshenko with president poroshenko chancellor merkel centrally pressed him for trying to achieve a peace deal with russia i'm not sure if that is the right line to follow and maybe it should have been kiev should start talking to the rebels the militias in east
ukraine to the self-proclaimed republics of luhansk and donetsk that has not happened likely it's not going to happen anytime soon however that is the line that to me sounds the only promising one and again in addition to what merkel said her vice chancellor also said that the only hope for a key of to achieve some sort of settlement is to talk directly now on the other hand persian co is under pressure from his more radical wing i suppose the sort of done community if i may describe it was such. in order to. promote the military operation to step it up to achieve a military victory and that's i think what was on the cards for ukraine's independence day on some very the twenty fourth of august that has not
happened chances are it won't any time any time soon because i well what we have here is a stalemate alexandra in london one of the problems we have here with how the west looks at events in ukraine is that they basically refuse to call it a civil war because they always say go talk to the russians now see this is the problem right here because you know either the russians are doing too little or too much ok but the fact of the matter is what dimitri just said in london is that care has to talk to the people that it's attempting to kill and this is what the west should be pushing more is a recognition that there is a civil war in ukraine and that the russians can only do so much because in some corners of russia does anything it's called doing too much go ahead alexander and london now absolutely agree with you on that one peter look the question is here it doesn't really matter what russia wants or ukraine wants or the u. wants the real question is whether the people on the ground in eastern ukraine want
these are the people that matter and it's pretty obvious from what they say from what we hear is that people in eastern ukraine do not think the key if represents their interests they do not think that pro shango is the man to lead the country for them they want federalization they want more autonomy and that's why there is a civil war now poor shank oh he has two options he can either accept these facts and actually agree to give more thought to me to the region which would hopefully end the conflict or the second option he will continue to shell the region which resulted in two thousand people innocent people dying it is older than three hundred thirty thousand people being displaced many of them going to. with the rush and if you choose the path then the coffee that we continue that will result in ukraine's economy going downhill at a very very fast speed it's already struggling and i don't know any examples of any country that has a mileage to survive a civil war and prosper during
a conflict so for shanker it's a choice between peace and autonomy for eastern and eastern ukraine or a perpetual civil war ok well i want to talk about of the right sector and poroshenko economic problems in a few minutes here michael if i can go to you dmitri mentioned you know the my down crowd which i think he's being a bit generous so there's some really nasty elements surrounding him in that government right now i mean is he hostage more to them or to victoria nuland or are they will all of those. groups all on one side because you know if you have put it he said this in the past you know he's agreed to things outright will get a cease fire in place we'll talk to these people and then within twenty four hours after a phone call apparently from washington he said you know a bombing civilians again in eastern ukraine i mean who is part of shank oh is he a man that you could do business with. i think he is alternately going to go partly where the money's coming from and i know the u.s.
is more than willing to you know they've authorized funding for ukraine military so we can expect that to keep happening the u.s. doesn't want to see a this resolve they want they want to see ukrainian military victory because they're short sighted and they don't understand the realities on the ground. you would hope that you know at times it seems like he's listening to merkel who wants more decentralization which may be which may be the you know the best most optimal outcome that again they do have to listen what are the separatists what are the russian rebels want what are the russian people want in the east and i suspect it's local autonomy i think it's more independence and ultimately will he listen to those demands regardless what everyone else does and i think he's torn i think the us and merkel are taking different approaches they're not on the same page it doesn't seem to me obama has a big clueless bit reactive and he's listening to the you know the neo cons and the
warmongers that still have the cold war mentality that we can't give an inch in this regard even though the west you know it in terms of the u.s. just has no business in this region you know they don't i don't understand why they think they have a dog in this fight but you know it's very interesting like that they feel like they have a dog every one of the major taking them back to you i mean again i mean really puzzled by porter shank i mean just what are his powers here because he has to look over his shoulder he has to be careful not to alienate the people that a century brought him to power we can talk about you know the history of them i don't but you and i both know when our viewers know there's some really nasty people that he brought along with him into his presidential administration or at least have strings attached to him here he has to be very mindful of them absolutely that's what i've started actually trying to listen to the crowd as it were. that does obviously and now the west seems to recognize that as well some
very nice and nasty characters that's absolutely true but he has well he seems to have chosen that route yet rather than and the dissolution of parliament is sort of you know points in that very direction i mean he's talking to characters like the right sector the freedom party and all of those characters i'm not sure actually that that was his mandate sort of three months ago when he was elected my understanding would be that he was kind of pictured as a businessman who would be pragmatic enough to talk to the people in the east and negotiate something. and now it appears that he's taken this pretty radical course and i'm not entirely sure we're rather pretty sure that this is not going to and we will for him you know alexander in london i agree with a great deal that dmitri just said that i think it was brought in to crush the
people in the east get it over with quickly don't cover it in media and then you know give a fait accompli to the russian saying you know what this is ours now you have to make a gas agreement will turn it off well it will blame you in the rush in the europeans will be angry with you i mean again this victoria nuland thing they can't let go of this insane plan that she conjured up and they you know we know what direction crimea is going to go the thing is i think it doesn't have a clue what he's trying to do what he's trying to accomplish that's why as i said he said in the beginning of the program you're running out of everything when it comes anything related to ukraine right absolutely i mean if you you know sticking with the point on the on the right sector ukraine right now is running on nationalism and it's pretty obvious to see why you know the people in ukraine and that's accusing west ukraine struggling to live right now we have heard reports which have been confirmed. has been turned off in kenya for example so people right
now you know they don't know how to hold water in the capital and that's down to preserve the gas reserves for the winter months when of course ukraine will be completely without gas and it's it's difficult to see what they're going to do about it so you know push back on the government actually actually have to promote this nationalistic extremist views in the country in order to keep the spirits up but of course what that results in. is in western ukraine ultimately becoming alexander let me ask you you're showing. them let me ask you if you ever spent a winter in eastern ukraine or in russia we've ever been there i've been there in the winter actually it's not very pleasant ok ok because well we just you know tell our viewers here what existence will be like without electricity and natural gas in february go ahead. well look i mean everyone knows that you know everyone had the myths about russia plummeting to minus forty degrees the only thing is that's no
myth that's reality and in the same situation ukraine is going to be very cold so the truth is prosecco has to make some sort of a deal with russia when it comes to gods you know it's a big call to russia can play. and you know talks between pushing and pushing come true putin will make it clear that you know any any future discussions towards peace will have to include gas pipes being opened up again in ukraine and does have to make a choice does he allow his civilians to have warmth in their homes and hold water or the sea continue to plunge them into the coldness oh yeah we could just blame putin they say oh we see gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on ukraine stay with r.t. . these would. be
. of. the government says it wants to close the secretary defense and defense department are committed to the president's goal of closing guantanamo bay. why are there so many legal roadblocks for the remaining. states constitution doesn't apply to these proceedings the government has demonstrated that they have no respect for the attorney client relationship no you can't look inside that board no you can't see the place which is adjacent to the client so you probably what actually happened that had to grow there are a lot of issues that are being handled hireable join us as we seek answers to those issues and much more this is abby martin breaking.
welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle true mind you were discussing the military stalemate in ukraine. ok i'm going to go back to michael here in moscow one of the interesting things as we mentioned on this program here is the economic situation in ukraine and we're looking at a contraction of this year of seven point five percent and that's in the most important industries and sectors of the economy and the in the alchemy outlook is very very bleak here and angle of merkel has made it more or less clear if she doesn't always speak straight but if you listen to her long enough germany is not
going to pay for this the european union isn't going to pay for this. they're going to have to give a heck of a lot more money not the seventeen billion that they promised but a whole lot more there and is as we heard from alexander with no. energy agreement between ukraine and russia there's a lot of people who are not going to be sending money into ukraine again it seems to me that position co is losing. is running out of options i mean if the economy is cratering if i could for the first time in my life quote john mccain go ahead. you know it's it's interesting that you know this self-proclaimed or you know he was considered a you know this business you know brilliant businessman that he's failing to understand basic economics at this point and shoot him self in the foot you know he's playing a dangerous game that is you know like was said earlier he said listen you've been blinded by these nationalist sentiments and you know when you look at merkel her
you know she's very careful in her advice but it's obvious germany is being driven by the economics of this situation otherwise you know merkel would probably play a different tune let's be honest with that so merkel realizes how precarious the economic situation is more than you know ukrainians own leadership so i think you know he needs to you know wake up sit down with putin understand you know what you know understand what you know russia's looking for in the separatists are looking for and there's got to be some compromise here and all the you know rhetoric out of ukraine out of he have you know there's been no hint of compromise in any way. i mean you know it's just unbelievable and meanwhile there are you know ukraine there's humanitarian crisis and everyone's turn and you know their heads are met we don't hear about that in state department press briefing at all or you know or the other western media i mean it's very interesting to me if i go back to you in london look the lack of compromise and the lack of
a language to help resolve this crisis here i mean on this program alone we have given all the reasons why this conflict is going nowhere and is only going to get worse for everyone on the ground here but you know we have this president that is not entirely legitimate a lot of people didn't participate in that presidential election on may twenty fifth but if he does compromise i have to wonder if a tory newlands going to cut him loose and that someone in kid will have a light post with his name on it because that's why he can't compromise. because the people that surround him do not want compromise they want conflict many of them believe in ethnic cleansing this is their agenda but they can't compromise and this is the problem kids have can't compromise they can't take the answer yes from anyone and this is the tragedy of it all and when it comes from the united states it to a great degree we're not rushing repeatedly since able to the president have had really good ideas to deescalate this and no one in canada listen to them well
there's two things i'd like to mention first is that on the one hand there is this view and a legitimate view very well sort of based in fact that it's not for somebody else outside to settle this conflict it's for the ukrainians on the other hand it's probably equally true that the outside players do have a major role to play now. sort of taking up the minsk meeting and the absence of any particular mystic views of that or of its outcome. i think there's a great symbolic element to it and that is that minsk brought together the customs union which is russia first and foremost it brought together kiev ukraine and it brought together the european union true manuel barros was not there he
sent his sort of other man there by rose who couldn't. i guess countenance any sort of well what could be construed as failure but anyway the formula russia ukraine e.u. is something that russia offered back in november. and something that the e.u. rejected out of hand. so this format i think is very significant you is coming back to realize we should have talked to russia a point in trying to devise this architecture of ukraine's relationship with russia on the one hand or with the customs union in the one hand and the e.u. on the other and that i think that sort of form that formula that axis gives me
some optimism ok well it's very i agree with dmitri there because the united states wasn't there victoria nuland wasn't sitting isn't in minsk right now and. no one would know in which expect that she'd ever sit there after what she said in her telephone conversation to the american ambassador in kiev but that's very interesting because we have this formula it was on the table back in november of last year why don't we just all sit down and talk and the european union slammed the door in everyone's face particularly mr yuna coverts is and ultimately russia's and this is something that the the russian side and i always tried to try to explain how the russian side sees all of this is that from the kremlin's point of view you can't trust the e.u. because in february they made a deal a power sharing deal with the government the current legit lee and elected government in kiev and the europeans the european union walked away from it lied and this is what's remembered here in moscow so we go all the way back to the beginning are you optimistic with these parties in minsk that we could start seeing
a process alexander in london. right well you have to first of all ask yourself why did the european union did in the van but because that went completely against their own interests we've seen now since the you american post sanctions on russia a you has actually struggled quite quite a lot italy's going into recession germany's business is suffering. you know the been plenty of of predictions that many jobs the bill lost because of the sanctions and the overall economy of the you will will not improve because of the situation that we find ourselves in with the ukrainian crisis so you do have to ask yourself who was behind these. these plans to to impose sanctions on russia i mean it's pretty clear that washington was the primary primary promoter of this and you know you can understand why because they don't actually suffer much from from this is the us suffers and it's russia the suffers and it's just a shame that the e.u.
decided to follow in washington leads rather than actually sticking to their own interests but you're quite right to say that for russia it's very difficult to trust the west this is what the western seem to understand from russia's point of view the west is tricked tricking russia over and over again that tricked them in the vendor when unocal which signed the deal with the opposition and the and the deal completely went through you know they've tricked him on you know in many other regions including libya so from put his point of view on and of course let's not forget the nato enlargement which is you know the big elephant in the room here because over the years the west has promised russia that they would never. get closer to the russian border with nato but the complete opposite you know that so many so many countries join nato and of course the biggest threat to russia now is whether it will join nato and that's what they're trying to prevent and unless the west understands you know i don't see how how we were would see the an end to this
conflict you know much of michael. in moscow one of the and when the interesting things if you can reflect it back exactly one year ago and you see what was going on in ukraine it was an economy that was kind of moving along in its ukrainian way there was no ethnic strife there was no war there were no sanctions inflation was under control people complained as slavic people complain all of the time i've lived in this part of the world for almost thirty years it's part of the tradition but look at ukraine now it never should have come to this there should have never been a coup in february let's all remind our our viewers here is that you know mr you know coverts made a deal he was against violence and now look what's happening you have a government came to power illegitimate government it was instantly recognized by the west instantly and they start a war against their own people again i'm glad. you had to say because if you look at it from a different point of view look at
a different narrative then you can see why it's going to be very difficult for people in eastern ukraine and their relatives who happen to live in russia it's going to be difficult for them to trust the west again. yes and you know i think narratives the key word. in the u.s. is very good at developing a narrative that you know echoes of the cold war and you know one of the questions is the what if what if the u.s. didn't get involved what if they did not interfere what would life look like today and americans don't think that way americans can put themselves and you know russia's shoes in no it is the big elephant in the room is russia does have national interests and could you imagine if russia had a military alliance that extended itself close to the us border we react in a certain way we definitely well it was called the cuban missile crisis ok ok you're too young to remember ed but as it is daria that's exactly what it was here dimitri going on you know i've known you for a while i work with you would voice of russia and you always keep an element of
optimism where do you get it from. well it's some it's a tough one and you know you get that sort of with age i suppose contrary maybe to popular belief but. i do tend to believe that you know there are. there are rational elements in all of the sort of all of the parties involved in the e.u. even in the us i do so even if i apologize if we got sort of. a group grazes on somebodies view of the world there is definitely a rational elements in russia and in ukraine even though at the moment the grain is being in a very. painful place and it's driven by all this idiology and the new parliament promises to be a lot more radical than the current one and that i think is
a mistake but the sooner they get there the sooner i think they will find they will fall out of love with that sort of core ok on that but that's very interesting i want to know it will be will continue i did for a program on that later many thanks and i guess in london and here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember last. week it. was. such. a political. one.
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not going to get any economic benefit in life there are good and. the. welcome to breaking at the set i'm abby martin so a couple months ago i noticed that a wikipedia page someone made for me got taken down all the my pages put up later after statement i made became viral the ordeal caused me to realize that the editing process for the online encyclopedia is very selective see an elite group of super admins and will the narrative by majority consensus or mob opinions are accepted as fact clearly this poses a big problem by shutting down the freedom of information and by giving zero room for discussion or disagreement with the content posted and as the sixth most visited site in the world with over.
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