welcome to worlds apart old to talk about russian meddling in european politics in the united states that has chaperoned the decision making on the continent that is until don't know trunk moved into the white house is europe ready to take its fade into its own hands as german chancellor angela merkel suggested it should vote to discuss that i'm now joined by john the norm and is torn in member of the european parliament this time it's great to have you on the show thank you very much for your time you're welcome we are recording these program just a few days before the russian and the american presidents are expected to meet in person for the first time and coincidentally that meeting is going to take place in europe do you think the europeans should be expecting anything groundbreaking to

come out of this meeting. you know. i will say that to both presidents. unpredictable so here at least in this house we cannot we cannot say the two are waiting something something particular for it was very difficult. to get them together. it is so long. we waited for this for this meeting and so no i didn't say anything while waiting and waiting with great interest and forever speak and i have no idea what will develop come of this meeting now it's interesting to say that because i. i more or less agree with what you just said i've been covering international politics for more than a decade and yet i think in my memory this is the first meeting between the two national leaders where so much focus has been placed on personal connection as far

as i know from the kremlin nor agreements nor documents are being drafted it's all about the two of them sitting down and having a chat is it save for the international system is it healthy for the international system when the communication between the leaders of two nuclear powers is saw peculiar let's let's put it that way. well see that president trump is under enormous pressure since he was elected and this pressure is most are related to russia and i believe that that is that is the reason why we're in this situation now so i agree yes. i am i'm also in politics for quite a long time and i don't remember something like that now as far as i know trump is not particularly liked in the europe neither is putin i wonder who what would your applied more troubling eve these two would be getting along well or on the contrary if they dislike each other from the start you know from the very

beginning since november two thousand and sixteen here in the gulf my callers are in big trouble and with such kind of rhetorical that europe is surrounded by by animus. and one of them at the certain moment was president trump with his nature at erik's was also this on predictable became behavior and i have a feeling that things didn't change since that and from all aside. also in trouble due to the fact that he's administration still doesn't work in a proper way and what about russia you know what you know what better than me. to which point our elations are now. at this meeting with great interest but i would say that was launched not much might choke nowi you just mention how unconventional president is and you know we have this saying in russia the

comparison is key to full comprehension. and i think we just had a chance to experience that in moscow with president obama he wasn't a great friend of russia when he was in office but i think a lot of people are starting to appreciate he more and more he certainly has some redeeming qualities compared to his successor. is that also the case with putin because putin certainly as you pointed out doesn't have the best of reputations in europe but i wonder with trump as a foil don't you think that europe may start to appreciate russia's leader a little bit better that's a good question i have a feeling that. last month there was a kind of more pragmatic attitude towards russia. this from side of the german and who is different the decision maker in your opinion. and maybe maybe you are right partly that now. why didn't you tell was russia slightly change what you

know we're kind of split. in this russian terms for we have baltic states with poland with of. the countries who are kind of more recent phobic let me say and there is no common position still was speaking about this only just before a meeting with putin trump is expected to make a stop in poland who's relations with brussels and the old europe are far from smooth even those tensions continue to grow and it looks like they will continue to grow who do you think the baltic states will find themselves closer to is a burden in brussels or warsaw. really. i cannot answer this question i hope that we are able to be more constructive. to the previous experience i would say that we will be closer to to washoe unfortunately i

personally i am i'm the first that i'm russian speaker doesn't matter but we were neighbors and we have to build up more constructive and more pragmatic relations that will have no now while we're relations with russia is kind of zero point and this is not normal well it's interesting that everybody's relations with russia is kind of zero point but that zero point is different for still one year and let's say for germany you mentioned the german chancellor already and she indeed sad germany should strive to have good neighborly relations with other countries including russia she specifically said that that would constitute europe taking its fate into its own hands. do i understand you correctly that there is no chance of this kind of sentiment of you know good for ignited neighborly relations with russia emerging in the baltic states and the time soon. i didn't say that there is

no chance but if we speak speak about germany in particular is under medical will have to speak about nor seem to this is the reason of a kind of pragmatic thing and as you know baltic states don't like the project we believe that this is a political project and a medical claims that no no this is not political this is economic thing and this is the kind of disagreement but as i said germany is definitely decision maker here now continuing with these good neighbors theme you know there is a saying the british saying i believe that good stances make good neighbors and the story of the country that you represent is indeed trying and aiming to build a wall on the border with russia it is also one of the three baltic states the only . one of the three baltic states that means the two percent. nato major contribution so why is that not enough force tony to feel safe in the

neighborhoods where russia is also present well the only member of your opinion of which do not have border with russia wouldn't have this border agreement as you know still the wall change nothing if we still don't have a border agreement what about nature and our commitment to nato it was a kind of political agreement which was made several years ago and yes weaponless money more than two percent two point seventeen this is at the moment a political decision from the russian perspective and let me know if you disagree with that no amount of. nato funding or the no number of nato troops in a store when you will make historians feel safe simply because russia will have to respond in kind to russia will have to increase its military presence on the border with on its western border and that in turn will make its tony and perhaps other baltic states fill even more in secure so it's not really about the increasing the

amount of equipment or the number of soldiers on the border it's more about solving the issue diplomatically you just mentioned that there is no border agreement between the story and russia who do you think should be negotiating died agreements would you rather see nato need go shape stoniest security on behalf of a story near all let's say it's torn in negotiating that whole issue or on the half of nato. no we have we have to solve this problem oversells this is all about literal relations and nato has nothing to do that nobody will negotiate our border agreement except us. the what about military presence for me it was like clear from the very beginning that we just have to make a choice if we want to have a more investment sit in our call. all we're still visibly preparing for war we cannot have both of the same time there is also a perception here in russia that this is a whole issue also stony and fear is. is not the real that it is essentially

a political issue that is being exploited for domestic and sometimes geopolitical reasons do you share that perception the do ordinary stonings really believe that russia is out there to have tagged them and take their territory i will say is that a still in our society is split in this issue i know real people who really believe that russia will invade us kind of tomorrow and yes you are right this is a political issue which is used always in a stone and you are in like last decade. whole problem is that we have elections kind of every year this year was go to the local elections next year was able to have fallen mentor elections that will go into our elections to europe and follow him and then will go into the presidential elections so well all was running for elections. and this is not a good time to be preselected it's interesting you say that because i mean i think

it's widely recognized in russia. russia under putin is viewed as an aggressor in many of the baltic states but. at the very least russia is the devil that you know you guys have known ours for decades now with trump in the white house i would claim that he's not only and then no no i think he's and noble character i mean the united states has just dropped major weapons on afghanistan on syria for very questionable reasons i wonder if we have reached a point when the united states like russia also represent a certain risk to stoniest security. it is not the case in a still an unknown in a stone of politics at least nobody is discussing the thing but you are right here in the you're up. there aka. and that kind of kind of dollops oh and discussions for us us about europe and all me is the much more fruitful all done

they were like three of us here do you do to president trump definitely well mr old we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. now for. the candidates usually only get you to talk a little. you. paid i know you sure you did being the deadbeat are allowed them to just tell you the other side of town but on the and. by then country for sure they're not getting. by that is a shift the on. a study not said and this is

going on more. so there's only. so it. can be no surprise was it the how did it move the multiple injuries among countrymen to soak up the good stuff you hold most of the work but the show's real yammers on the phone to the bomb if you can because people social services say yes but in the book in a moral sense what my. hanumant enough of a. tough allowed me to see it how the something that was. done on the something outside of. the hamas led us to live to hamas look ma that's what i'm talking about maybe maybe i'm a bit cooler than. when

lawmakers manufactured consent instinctive public wells. when the roman closest project themselves. with the financial merry go round to be the one percent told. to ignore middle of the room signals. the real news is really the world. welcome back to worlds apart with tom and. tony

a member of the european parliament. mr i mentioned syria already and i know that your recent visit to this country and your meeting with president assad was have only criticized in both estonian and european media i wonder though if privately in your private conversations. experts and politicians express the same kind of attitude because from my own interviews with the europeans i get a sense that they're desperate for the syrian crisis to be solved and whether or not they like putin they they still seem to be kind of welcoming russia's involvement there. right. for instance we would have chess embassy in damascus which was never close during the war and. there were two other member states who opened the embassies and the last course this is romania and bulgaria and there are relations with the european union fruitless for emphasis still this picture is not that white and left like you can read in political. refugee exodus

from the syrian conflict is now widely recognized as a major security challenge for europe the former cia director david for trans gave an interview just a few days ago and he called it a geopolitical chernobyl and what i find ironic here is that chernobyl that whole nuclear catastrophe was at actually triggered by a full t. safety test would it be too farfetched for me to claim that the western position on syria is also partially based on the full understanding of what makes the world and europe safe and secure you know the first thing i would argue that refugee crisis is only syrian problem it is much wider of course with the refugees from all the region and also from low enough it's not it's not a syrian issue and another thing which was i recently read a couple of news. you and i share. water syrian refugees coming back to the country

that go into aleppo all their will to damascus and nobody realize that the go to terrorism which are under. the territories wish under such control which means that they are not afraid of him and this is the thing we are overlooking totally what about. attitude was western position you know frankly speaking i cannot i cannot formulate what is europe in position to always syrian crisis i see absolutely no position well at least in the beginning i remember because i covered that conflict from the start the position of many european countries was that europe has to stand up for democratic values and that's why it has to support this armed uprising against the leader that many europeans receive as a dictator and as a killer of his own people now i don't want to get into the discussion about assad per se but don't you think i wonder if the syrian crisis in your view has taught

europeans anything about you know the promotion of democracy and values has there been any lessons drawn on that front i believe yes i believe yes and even in my call oh sure our. whole willing to support democratic opposition in syria i didn't see any democratic leaders or democratic opposition oh whom we're supposed to support and i didn't see anybody who would really believe that if we eliminate assad from power legs there will be a democratic elections of course not can you imagine democratic elections was on all of it's just impossible i was wondering if the problem here is not so much the democratic elections because to be high we have a number of countries like for example of damage done or iraq where elections do take place but it has very little relevance to the actual security in the country i

wonder if. it's if part of the problem is perhaps conflating democracy and security because those issues to me at least and to russia i'm sure seem to be to die in desperate issues that desperate issues that have to be discussed separately . but i believe that you are right but i would argue about democratic elections in syria it is impossible for all this numerous opposition forces they do not cooperate between between themselves. so if it is not doable it in i don't know several he has at least and another thing with us is that president assad seems to a lot of syrian people more prefer belches now speaking about security in europe many russian experts believe that the station in ukraine despite a march lower does told present a much higher danger to the unity and security in syria in europe do you agree with

dad that the syrian file is actually far more troubling despite the fact that it is not a full scale war and i'm not able to pull to put them in the least like number one number two number three you cannot prefer one thing. of course though there are all security risks definitely. if we speak about ukraine for baltic states and for poland this is one more reason to speak about possible russian aggression not syria but ukraine many in russia believe that tactically president can may need a low level conflict simply as a as a tool that would distract attention from the lack of reforms from the very slow progress on all those promises that he made to the people of ukraine after my done is there anything is there anything in your view that moscow can do or you or for that matter can do to change that calculus if that is indeed the way he. you

know i personally believe that until we still stick to a minuscule green months we will not move forward pose absolutely clear that. president bush is one who really doesn't like me into the music agreement. when the claim. put in that he is not fulfilling misc agreement will forget the fact of president bush and the fact that he has to explain in key of why. did he agreed with them still this is this is a problem and when we're speaking about this to create an issue we still stick an minute in minsk agreement and this is a big mistake in my view now the events in ukraine created. a seemingly permanent tax on both russian and european industries and by that i mean both sanctions and can't counter sanctions i heard you say dad they're unlikely to survive beyond the summer of two thousand and seventeen but here we are they have just been extended how long do you thing they will stay in place. you know i said this several times

that i believe that like in upcoming months sanctions will be when believed that no this will not happen and i really believe that. it will not happen in. fact i cannot say i say the. i think that way a kind of vicious circle and we're not able to get out of it we still know baltic states poland we already lost russian market this is a problem for us and i believe that this is not a problem for usha mr tom let me ask you a difficult question that i mentioned before the. police from the most this perspective part of the reason ukraine is not hurrying to fulfill demands agreements is because it does not have an incentive at least an economic incentive if europe loses this incentive to sort of regain that its share on the russian market don't you think that the ukrainian issue will be forever alive in this

slow boil. state there is a certain risk that it will become a condor for frozen conflict yes definitely there is there is a risk now many european leaders recognize that sanctions that were introduced as the european response to quote unquote russia's aggression in ukraine those sanctions are hurting the domestic economies it's not a controversial issue there's also a recognition that this measure is not very effective in changing the kremlin's calculus but there seems to be the lack of just a fixation political justification for the real europeans to reverse the course can you think of anything that could possibly change that what could possibly make the europeans to see devalue for themselves or for russia in changing the course of believe that the problem is that it is very difficult to say to save our face

this is a problem people perfectly understand what's going on or what are the thousand all the sanctions really doesn't work not one not able to achieve the goals which were . so to say put on but. there is this kind of no choice but i will argue with the fact that. the european sanctions is the thing which undermines our economy economic ties and all this is a national call to countless actions. which which makes our farmers and our director to suffer and as he pointed out russia has managed to. he used the sanctions in its own favor by introducing counter sanctions and also growing its own agricultural sector in the last three years that the sanctions have been in place i wonder if the europeans can choose to use this moment for their own benefit for example it is well known the president poroshenko of ukraine is strongly against the lifting of the sanctions again because of his own internal political

reasons but i wonder if europe could use that strat of lifting of the sanctions to encourage him to be more active on the reform of fraud to. in a way blackmail him in a good mannered she encouraged him to be more transparent and be more active in building the good governance in introducing the rule of law transparency all those issues that have been promised to the ukrainian population and that i think you were the group is made of progress on the reach hasn't been very significant over the last three years you know i'm not a big specialist on ukraine. i've never been in ukraine a serious conflict so i really i cannot speak from my own point of view but as far as i know from my colleagues there is a certain disappointment. due to fact that there is still huge corruption. it is very difficult to deal with and europe is kind of getting tired can i ask you

one final question of which i think. expresses the one thing in common between the ukrainian experience and perhaps these thorny experience it seems that most of the former soviet republics that sought to integrate themselves into into the west have stumbled across the issue of after the nationalism. there is so much it seems there so much afraid of russian subversion that they seem to create the conditions for its own hands by ostracizing or sometimes discriminating against their own russian minorities is there really no better way of. dealing with the issue because that i could make i could easily make a case that dive plays directly into the kremlin's hands if indeed crumlin wanted to subvert domestic politics be the new crane or in the stone ian you know there are two things for me first is. that really all was a void discussing all things related to discrimination no rush and i know to turn

a stone or for wake up to solve this issue is always sells without help over russia thank you and the second thing is that the discrimination of the national minorities is very culmination fortunately in europe there is discrimination to was remain an minority and hungered kind of got on minorities and romania and so on and so forth all this kinds of relating. national minority is often taken a security risk for in a country and unfortunately russian my knowledge in a still ne is the same you are right we have problems all non-citizens so without problems there was discrimination but we're trying to hold them in a. political reality which is your opinion it's not that i was suggesting any recipes for estonia i was just suggesting that perhaps. the time that it takes to solve those issues is not really playing for its own use own benefit but anyway i really appreciate your observation and your being here thank you very much for your

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hundreds more leave every day. on time along. with the country at a crossroads anger on the island is on the rise. a u.s. and russia brokered cease fire comes into force in southwest syria people are enjoying their first peaceful day off to six years of fighting. in the top stories of the week have a unfolds in hamburg and t v twenty riots like the german city leaving hundreds of police and protests.