now i spend the last few days among germans living in the united states and when they discuss elections for them two names invariably come up one is trump. honestly speaking most germans are repulsed by him second is america and here the situation is interesting because on the one hand many people support her and they say they are going to vote for her but on the other hand there is the sounds of drudgery. an exciting familiarity associated with her and i want to if that's the consequence of the chum phenomenon when the save some would say boring option seems attractive once again. i don't know i mean i think you're right in terms of thing moods at the end of last year there was a lot of thinking that mrs merkel had run out of steam and that. really wasn't very much of a future for her. but this year has looked

a bit different. than supporters from back to her. in particular i think you know when you ask the other question about the relationship with the united states and the response to draw from. one of the features of the campaign was the search for a democrat for me to. introduce. was really making a much stronger case to oppose trump and mrs merkel looks the kind of safe pair of hands news how to deal with north and the president from ever with the international scene in general now i've seen you read you wrote recently that merkel together riff in miami omicron of france and two recent may of the united kingdom are remaking european the politics by making individual competence a key political promise and i found this very interesting because both mccraw and i'm a don't have that extensive governing experience while merkel backs policy speech

by their very nature and scope up prone to me sire they are pretty risky politically you don't know how they're going to fold out later on so i was just wondering what does competence mean in this day and age is it simply being more consistent more verb really disciplined than trump east he's still somebody that the politicians are comparing themselves to i think i think there is a sense indeed that. in europe for. people who don't want to follow the united states and the candidates in your. rippin over the last year who sort of looked as if they were inspired by the triumph or normal get phyllis in the governments or marine independent in prague's did really quite quite poorly the expectation that the end of last year for instance was that good for us would get about thirty percent of the adult troops in the end he got thirteen percent of the dots wrote and marine le pen's campaign i think was also surprisingly weak and

started to fizzle out and that's i think because french people are dutch people simply didn't want to have a repeat of what's going on in the united states and yet recent opinion polls show that almost half of german voters are still undecided what do you think sustains these political in decisiveness and do you think the undecided voters in joe many i capable of the same surprise that the american and british undecided voters delivered last year i think i would that really would be very very surprising i mean we always knew that the both the british election and the british wrote on their own bracks it and the american election would be very very close. ok but really norm of the opinion polls is suggesting that in the german case this surprise lies in. the extent to which the smaller parties were differentiate

themselves so they're not very far apart in the opinion polls and opinion polls in germany traditionally have been really quite reliable in terms of predicting the outcome and we all know that opinion polls are not doing very well over the last. the last years but i think in this case you do you would see the c.d.u. very very clearly ahead of the over properties i don't think anybody would doubt that and if that didn't happen there would indeed be an enormous surprise you've written several books dealing with the subject of german identity and i think this issue of national identity is central to many political changes that we observed over the last couple of years the election of china for example either redefined american identity or at least exposed this side of it that wasn't politically visible before i wonder how stable or how inclusive do you think is the jomon self narrative. well germany since nine hundred forty five

has really remade it so. as a european country some people are continually talking about a european germany and this was a this was a famous line that thomas mon said he wanted the european german in north german europe and i think that's very much the the consensus of german politics the only party that's really not in that consensus is the f.t. . so i think it clearly will get into parliament but it's not going to be a very strong protest well it's interesting you say that because in one of your recent articles you actually suggested that angle and merkel may be trying to remake europe in germany's image and not in an imperial sense of the world but to impart some of the best labor traditions about germany has to offer so in a sense there is a driver in germany a mainstream driver driver in germany to. create the german eyes to europe

well i think you have to differentiate between the different styles of work to what you could call a german one to europe if you're thinking about better labor relations or training programs for workers i mean those are things that are part of the german economic model i mean that's that's very very different to a setting germany's political role and you'd have to try to make your judgment in the sense that the kaiser from the second. wanted to conquer europe but since it's a very very different story i want to focus on this issue of national identity identity because i think the wave. debated in articulated in germany somewhat different from the way this discussion folds out and some other countries i think germans tend to both merkel's supporters and marco's critics they tend to define who we. are in terms of the other in that case the migrants and do you see that as

a moral historical phenomenon or is it situational sin simply because of the large influx of migrants would be i think that's always parts of any national identity needs strong rooted national identity or also always thinks of it so in terms of the aba but the peculiarity of today is i think that really isn't the case anymore and the treatment of migrants for instance is it's really very very different i think than in many other european countries and it was something that was very pronounced in twenty fifteen there was this big discussion that was a german word so common scooter or a welcoming culture. you know maybe. got over emphasized to bits at the beginning but he was certainly not the kind of harsh intolerance you see. for instance. and in hungary or and poland

now one of the most interesting insights i got from your book was that the extent to which you cannot get german identity to the countries legal culture and its deep respect for the rule of law and as somebody who comes from russia a country with multiple and often conflicting value systems i want to ask you that specific feature of german identity would be indeed on the pressure because of the large influx of people from lawless environments. is enormously important. is to but let's say and you know one of the challenges in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen was the feeling that. your in order breaking down. i think that feeling of being threatened was was exaggerated. you know the clearly were violent incidents and german women in particular. they

were under attack. but. i think this is this is a situation that. can be dealt with that is being done to improve robots or to successfully. i do a bit germany is descending into enormousness because of a wide wave of migration is that is just an exaggerated myth but i didn't we agree with you that it is indeed an exaggeration but again judging from russia's own experience how difficult it is to instill doubt culture off respect for full laws you know within all social status and and all social groups i think this is something that you cannot do simply assume you know a couple of months of integration courses at the end of the day it's a very interesting social experiment of you know bringing people from very challenging environments into the country reach is perhaps of one of the most the

law abiding into world so you would expect some difficulties. because it simply hasn't ever been tried before you're right in the congo simply be done by. coercion. in the end the only way that it's really going to work is if. groups are properly integrates it and that means economic integration social integration and it means in particular. working because i think that's part of the german culture we were talking about it before this is the the german model and. in many cases migrants have really been very successfully integrated into the german workforce there's a there's a big shortage of. crazy knees apprentices. markets are doing. very important for valuable things and if you talk to migrants who are

being integrated in this way they are indeed. really quite outstanding successes i just came across a bloomberg article on the integration of migrants and essentially the mass it was that because of. the and the willingness of merkel governments to give the moderates and refugees a permanent status of integration is not going on well and the idea was also in that article about the companies are not willing to or not able to in vast long term and training off many of those of those newcomers again because merkel keeps three to rating the point that once the wars are over my gran's are expected to go back into the country to into their home countries rather do you think that is actually a good sense because it seems to me that this is a political stunt stumps aimed at perhaps on the cutting the support for the right wing parties like they'll turn to for germany but at the end of the day it comes

back hurting the german economy which as you said really really needs additional labor force. it's a delicate balance there i think because it also clear. that germany is not capable of absorbing the number of migrants who came in twenty fifteen for instance. you know when you're thinking about a million coming in one year or about a million coming in one year. that's very difficult to hunger or if it's going to take place every year it is a one off thing it's all right. but that's i think where this for this mood exists that you know when the middle east is stabilised when the war in syria is over that marker and should return home. i think through i mean when you. think about this in the in the longer term. there

are many many examples of my current su move from one country to another. under all kinds of techniques and then gone back to those countries where they came from bringing new skills and new ways of thinking about about the world in terms of been very successful so you can think in the end that integrating migrant workers into germany even if it's not on a prominent basis would be good as well for the societies which they may or. may think about going back to in the end so you know getting a high level of skills is really an important part and not just of socializing migrants in germany but also of those in the future of syria or libya or in the post conflict well professor james we have to take a short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. we're

in. good health c.l.o. next. and these special. moments it's almost like. according to the see you eat it it's home to do holds most powerful drug syndicates. why you grow marijuana and tomatoes at city. hall of the don't keep the motley. fool you nobody wants the people. as your. to keep them.

close. the government knows what they do and they do nothing.

well you know they were kind of adopted because we were called pirates for so long . being there in the small ball of sticks in a hard pool of ships and it's still. up to. the little self the big fish. and the comic. con to fifteen scoops seventeen tons and they do it several times a day with a big fleet oh you get an idea on why. we have to understand we can all stay still and just. be witness all the deal going through our state. i'm doing this because i. one of them a future world to future generations to have out and enjoy the ocean how we.

are. welcome back to worlds apart with harold james professor of history and international affairs at princeton university professor james we already mentioned the alternative for germany and many analysts expected to make its debbie in parliament as a result of sunday's vote a what do you thing would be least harmful for joe many in the short and medium term to continue treating the a of d. as political untouchables or perhaps to engage them in the political process in the hope of neutering the most extreme views.

if the. kind of broad coalition that started or for really. as a proxy group was worried about the euro or worried about a specific financial economic issue about the architecture of the european union the people who believes are you do you have launched in left of america. has has left. the if he has it has definitely moved to the right. but even then it's still quite incoherent people who are very very rightwing there's a fascinating article the munich economic historian duffy to come tony produce a few days ago where he showed just a sister current continuity between those areas of germany for instance has a high vote for national socialism in the late one nine hundred twenty s. and the early one nine hundred thirty s. and the vote for the a f t and in today's in today's world so this is the really

could use some kind of continuity. because it's i think a relatively small part of the german political spectrum you know speaking about statistics are also challenged some of the data about the support for the f.t. and what i was curious for me to find out that it does rely on certain communities of recent immigrants the russians the cabs the poles there is also quite a bit of a support for the idea those groups which is i think politically understandable because those countries tend to be more conservative. last willing to open up their borders to newcomers but the idea here is that you know the big question that i'm sort of dropping with is that in germany many people talk about economic or social integration but nobody talks about political integration ever. but he's still treating the f.d.a.

as an anomaly a as something ugly but rather than trying to bring them into the political process i mean make them make compromises make them make sacrifices for the sake of just being part of a political life. when. the question is what kind of compromise would would that be and. your discussion there is very very interesting because it's very clear that the f.t. is not simply a party that responds to. the process of globalization it's not a party of the moose's of globalization but that clearly isn't the case in germany germany has a very very dynamic economy. really very low rates of unemployment and the f.t. support is also present in some really dynamic areas certain bargain in the south in germany one of the really most prosperous areas of germany this is significant

of the national average representation of the teaser it does rely exactly on these identity issues i think your or your observation on that is is absolutely correct. and the the question is. you know how how then should the political system respond to it. you know when the if he defines itself as an anti system polity and presents mrs macdermott as. marionettes of the western powers that's the that's really just intolerable i'm acceptable or it's not a serious part of the political debate and i don't think that can really be included in the mainstream of political discussion you've written a lot about germany's moral struggles but that's past the beach makes the. the nationalistic. a far more shameful proposition politically than in other countries

do you think a country with such a distinct national identity is germany can function while of about some politically correct notion of nationalism you want to mean by politically correct. idea of nationalism while we're a bit mistrust on the national interest sometimes at the expense of the let's say the european union interests will be dead there but it's another instance i think where. german interests and european interests are really deeply into trying to with each other and it would really i think be very different to much in the future of german business if it wasn't going to help with her with. with with with business as with economic activity in the european countries. so who are you know i think the the the world of thinking about missions as

having interests that clearly opposed to those of other nations that one side has to win the opposite has to move and that's really exactly the world. isn't relevant anymore for the commission now in fact i just want to a little extend a little bit this this line of questioning. there is an argument also the germany is being unfair benefactor of the european union by hiding behind the euro which. allows it to you. level out the the gains of the in the labor productivity this is an argument that. makes all the time that by montagne a euro as the of the currency of. germany gains an additional competitive advantage

for its export sector do you see any merit in that kind of argumentation. each one of the things that i do think germans feel they think they react to her because they can compare them serves with switzerland switzerland is in many ways very like the german economy it's it's dynamic it's. has a high technology component it depends on export markets and one of the consequences of the. last years and the problems in the euro zone has been the really quite dramatic appreciation of the swiss franc and that's given a shark to swiss exports and sort of germans look at that and they sometimes say well if we didn't have the euro we would have the old mark back again but it would be appreciating. such an extent that it would say it would. provide an obstacle to

german exporters in that sense the argument that being in the currency union has kept the value of the currency down and has made it easier for german exports as is is is correct. that's that so i think one of the features that ties germany to europe you do that's one point but i don't think you should go from that point to the further point that germany's gains are at the expense of the rest of the european union and that's really not the case and the big value chains the production chains which link german firms to eastern europe or to southern europe where components and made an offer countries them better assembled in germany some of his german exports i mean that's

something which which is of benefit to everybody in europe you pointed out in a number of your articles that after two thousand and ten. the european policymaking was practically a bilateral affair involving a dominant france and more dominant germany if you take the e.u. founding philosophy at its face value dot should be an anomaly but it seems that at least from your writing you are suggesting that the franca german leadership or some would call it the franco german dominance is essentially inevitable when it comes to the e.u. and. it wasn't before the economic and financial crisis in the economic and financial crisis made progress and germany into the central figures in the european response to the. global financial crisis but i think it ended. the part i think of this big european reform project we know who

it will get under way that. that's exactly what has to be replaced. by a better and more broadly based european order. just relying on germany or just relying on france it's clearly a new not a quick and politically. also full solution to europe's problems well professor james peake we have to leave it here i really appreciate your being on the show today and to our viewers please share your comments on our twitter facebook and youtube pages and i hope to see you again same place same time here on all the parts.

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