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tv   Cross Talk  RT  November 28, 2018 5:30pm-6:00pm EST

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we don't have any for me to call stunts we just want our lives to return to normal and be able to return to our homes peacefully we want. to sleep in peace and not to worry about this situation one place we want to leave normally we didn't do anything to the. young people so close yet so far apart still us is not sure of the way some of the world news stories looking for thursday morning in the morning in that i've covered i would thank you for watching the next programs in your part of the world or on. here. right after this break story.
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manufacture to send stuff to public well. when the ruling class is to reject them so. we can all middle of the room sick.
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hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter live oh it's ukraine versus russia again a minor maritime incident on the courage straight is said to be anything between a major international crisis to a cheap campaign trick as ukraine enters an election cycle take your pick but one thing is for sure russia is deemed aggressive by the west even when defending its sovereignty. cross talking strained relations i'm joined by my guest a real concern to in london he's a foreign affairs consultant an analyst we also have in london married a chef ski she is a columnist for the independent and the guardian and in washington we have michael
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maloof he is a former senior security policy analyst in the office of the secretary of defense all right cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate mary let me go to you first here. i obviously read up on prepared for this program i looked at all of western media and government reactions and i have foreign policy an article that came out on the twenty seventh and the title is putin pushes russia ukraine tensions to a four year high now the reason i mention that and i think i'll quote something of it later is that there's there's so sumption that they can assume what russia's intentions are always no matter what the topic but in this instance there's very little attention given to what ukraine actually did and then rushes reaction to those actions here again we have these diametrical different. narratives in play here one of demonization and one is
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a wrong party when it's far more complex than that and far more dangerous than that go ahead mary. well i was i have to say that i was very surprised to wake up to discover the bin this. clash of navies essentially in the straits of care that russia and ukraine seem to be on the verge of a maritime war. and it all seemed incredibly dangerous. and ukraine had managed very successfully and i think to get its version of the story out first. so their version which i mean it has essentially been disproved. was that there were two gunboats and a tug and that russian ship. crashed into the tugboat deliberately. and there are two. crews of the
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two gunboats have been taken prisoner and are now in what is. russian annexed crimea so i think those to those facts are there but the question of why they're not married they're not even address those are not even the facts ok first of all if you look at the footage the tugboat was desperate to be hit by the russian ship i mean it with zigging and zagging and if you want to stand russian well enough you couldn't repeat those words in english because they were saying basically get out of the way all right ok let me go to michael here michael this all happened on sunday but on saturday and the friday before and the week before and the month before ships were going under that bridge into that sea unimpeded why you got a call up and say hey we're coming through this is our type of boat this is the
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type of time this is what we're carrying and we and do you have a pilot there that can escort us that protocol. they'd been doing that for years but not on sunday and ukraine didn't put that story out it didn't notify the proper authorities here that story the ukrainians forgot to give out go ahead michael yeah it's subject to the protocols back in two thousand and three and up right at that point they were abiding by it for the most part but the problem is this is in a larger strategic picture what you're seeing here is the west looking for an excuse to go after moscow secondly you're also seeing that poor shank of the president of ukraine is in serious political troubles are you strong and i i smell a tail weighing in the dog here reminiscent of suck us really back in georgia in two thousand and eight when he provoked the russians and shot. russian
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peacekeepers in the south of setia and then the war was on at that time it was to try and get nato to protect georgia in this case i think by declaring martial law as poor shank go did he's trying to solidify his political base if he can so let it out at night at eight percent and so little area will be go to you in london let me give this little tidbit out to everybody when you know code which was even legally ejected from the presidency in february two thousand and fourteen his public opinion approval was twenty four percent puerto schank zero by even ukrainian accounts is eight percent so i wonder what's really in play here i don't know what the intentions were on the street straight but i can see political maneuvering on the part of put a shank oh and the people that put him in power go ahead in london. thank you peter
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as you rightly pointed out. it is the fact that in. thirty of the march two thousand and nineteen. we should see the elections coming in the ukraine by the support of the current president of ukraine with support of just did what he did so. what he evaluated i mean the ukraine violated the article mine hundred twenty three of the un convention all the. all the see. it was a provocation as everyone is saying this but what was the purpose of this. all of this provocation is intended lee to the. you know. any any sort of gatherings or protests in ukraine to regulate the media as you rightly pointed out mr poroshenko. estimating today he's chances to get through the
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second round of the presidential elections in ukraine is zero he's not even able to get to the second round what mr. he's waiting for the coast contest straight from the u.s. he's waiting to be a good knowledge as the right for hold all the power in the ukraine or and also the facilitator for the u.s. neo cons to use the ukraine for the base to attack russia in the future i mean let us be clear yesterday my professor from from the you know university of warsaw professor contacted me at night saying what they are doing asking me what they are doing well i mean when we are sitting in moscow in washington zero in london it looks like a zero is another conflict no you know that on the border between ukraine and poland out prop. and people are fighting one child ok i go i want to get me another
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yeah let me go to let me go to mary here you know you know mary with this proclamation of martial law all of us here on this program and many of our viewers have been following what's been going on in ukraine so this is the first crisis situation ukraine is face to declare martial law that is quite amazing here and of course with the impending election cycle the the the the shutting down of public display discourse controlling the media here where is the outrage in about that in western media and from the u.s. state department and everybody else that was quick to blame. interpret russia's intentions go ahead mary. well i think that the declaration of martial law was certainly see as a quite drastic move which seemed completely out of proportion to the clash the
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been in the straits of coach. but i think that something quite interesting this happens that may reflect. some of the difficulty is that maybe some of ukraine's western sponsors had with the with the whole concept of declaring martial law so close to an election and this was that when the proposal came before parliament in ukraine as i understand it it's actually been reduced quite significantly so while the initial idea was that the whole of ukraine would be subject to martial law with all the restrictions on freedom of speech freedom of assembly presumably election campaigning and all that. the the provision that is actually passed through parliament is for something rather less than that and i think it only goes up to the twenty seventh of december so yet
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couple of months before the election it's also restricted to the border areas of ukraine so to that extent it can be seen or at least it can be justified by ukraine as. a security measure and i wouldn't be i mean and i just get the impression and this may be totally wrong that between. president poroshenko saying he was proposing martial law and parliament actually discussing it that may have been some rather urgent advice transmitters are made it is very certain western embassies are wise to say well maybe this actually doesn't look very good maybe you had better think of it rather maybe. limited tippett in terms of the time in terms of the geo graffiti. and i think that's what seems to have happened ok michael i could tell you want to jump in go ahead. what hasn't been mentioned yet
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is that under that martial law. he can actually postpone elections if he so chooses so this gives him on usual a lot of presidential authority in which he can in which he can. you know continue on and and you can extend he can and can expand the martial law provisions indefinitely if he chooses to do so so this is not this is almost an open ended and all course it is that the west is not addressing well in those kind of a i mean look i mean ukraine on sunday broke a number of provisions of international law when it comes to the to the c.s. ok so i mean do we have a lot of confidence that they're going to keep their word after passing this law through parliament i mean one other i don't have a copy there mike i've got to jump in here we have to go to a hard break after that break we'll continue our discussion on strained relations stayed with our.
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campsite to get three people that. they're like so vampires. safe housing and they don't have to talk about what they go here with us because we understand our daughter g.t. was diagnosed with a very rare some sensitive condition i get sunburned i hear she doesn't feel patients' problems with want to talk to your son the brains are actually shrinking inside the skull gets weaker in the brain still small. says this through. you know world's big partners and the mob and conspirators it's time to wake up
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to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. welcome back across like we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing strained relations. ok let's go back to michael maloof in washington we had to cut you off we had to go hard break finish up my friend you know it one thing that's not been mentioned all that much in western media is the fact that for months leading up to this this
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episode. ukrainian ships were also detaining russian ships in that very same area and that's been going back and forth back and forth because of the protocols and the challenges that are required so this is not just a one sided thing and if and this morning there was a an interview of the captain of the ukrainian ships who basically said we were asked to provide information and what it what our intentions were and we and my my orders from higher authority was don't respond. so it really looks like it was a planned provocation but well i think i think it's quite clear to anyone that wants to look at the facts here and really you already mention nato here nato. popped up or immediately to talking about ukraine i mean ukraine is not a member of nato number one ok and it should be made clear here and also this seems to be a provocation on a larger scale to have ukraine become
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a member of nato which you know it's kind of like forcing it through here but this is the but this is very this is very ill founded logic because if in case we saw on sunday there are tensions between russia and ukraine for a variety of reasons why would nato want to have a member within their alliance that has bad relations with and with a neighbor that could come to a military exchange what is the logic i thought nato was about projecting speace instability it seems to me they're doing just the opposite go ahead in london. it's one thing to have. a ukraine as a member in order to europeans as a common for the they know the ukrainian. current situation in ukraine led by the nazis because that will be
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a clear all the jewish newspapers and all the media and all the research as the new analyses in ukraine is doing very well so the main main main main cause and main main thing to have as a close all is to use the. as a stick to the russian bear and also from the geopolitical point of view let us not forget. who clearly written in his democratic ideals and reality. that who rules europe commands. who rules the how. i learned who rules the island. commands the world so let us not be deceived by the news papers like for the guardian. simon jenkins has written all of us saw them
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straight off the information coming out the. ukrainian soldiers sailors have been captured forget about breaks in the ukraine the war in ukraine. for europe so let us be fair the machinery did p.r. machine the really behind this is coming from the. air i mean it is beyond comprehension i mean you know heavy project it's just the opposite is very comprehensive to me because it all seems to fit together i mean like it's like an oiled machine it really kicked in mary of course i mean you know what hang on they're going to marry that are going to make it you see there's a big talk is one of the first reactions to all of this is that this is also aimed at the trumpet ministration you know the trumpet ministration is sanctioned russia over and over again congress has more sanctions on the way for the script fair that the u.s. has nothing to do with but anyway. and then we have the g.
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twenty i mean you know so make sure trump and putin don't talk here i mean i think that's a bit of a stretch but because i think the u.s. russia relations have been so soured it'll take a generation for that to change and i can tell you most people on my side of the pond of just given up on good relations just have to remain bear getting through what we are now go ahead mary. yes well i mean the question of the g. twenty and the probable meeting of president trump and president putin in argentina in the framework of that meeting. that has certainly been mentioned as a consideration maybe for the timing. of this clash in the straits now i don't know whether that's true or not but in a way if it was designed to do such a meeting and to prevent any sort of agreement it's probably only half succeeded because in a way new tension between russia and ukraine actually provides
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a better reason for the two of them to talk so i mean i'm not completely convinced that it would actually frustrate that sort of meeting but i think that's something else that maybe we've neglected in all of this which is that when you look at the map. of the sea of ours of where this instant happened. this is an accident waiting to happen here it is an absolute nightmare. and when you when you actually consider you know i think what was forgotten when when this clash was first reported nobody has mentioned i think the fact that there was actually a clash way back in two thousand and three you know almost in the very same place and the fact that there is another occasion agreement for the sea of dates for that
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clash that was the outcome of that clash that it was agreed that there should be shared navigation between russia and ukraine through the sea of ourself and the regulations put in place and in a way it's almost remarked more remarkable that this is the first serious serious incident since two thousand and three. than that and then nothing else in the fort. yes regulations which were put in place of an emergency basis how factually held yeah yeah but you're absolutely let me go to michael here mary brings up an excellent point but then that goes we go right back to the beginning it was a mechanism that did work it was working up until saturday and then there was an intention to break that understanding here and we have to remember there's a three point two billion dollar bridge there now which is a great strategic importance to russia they have to use extra assets to protect it
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and we've heard ukrainian politicians and others that say it's a legitimate target for destruction an act of terror go ahead michael yeah i you know i don't believe in coincidences at all. the fact the fact that there is going to be the g. twenty and this this indicates that porsche and co was leading up to that pretty much like what we saw as i refer back again to two thousand and eight with the georgian incident in which saakashvili was warned repeatedly don't antagonize russia which he was planning to do this is what's happening again and now it's drawn in as a result the big the big boys and and what's interesting is that trump himself has been rather silent on all this so i think that he and he is sending a signal really that intends to the cool it down a little bit he's going to have that meeting and things are going to work out i think he's looking forward to that meeting with with putin and he still has
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a desire to work with putin on a number of a myriad of issues but but this clearly was a calculation on the part of poor shank oh and people close to him and the people within the state particularly the state department and the neo cons that antagonize these guys because that their relationship with the porsche and go government is very very strong and so they're the. amount of instigation there is incredible to do in sight and i think that that's what we have here in preparation for this meeting in order to get basically to say i'm not going to talk to putin i don't think that that's what trump wants to do you know what he wants i don't think i think he's and i think that it's going to be my point and i think it's interesting is that he would prefer to blast a resume over briggs then to tweet about ukraine. g.'s to resume he can't win or lose in these states i reckon. it is not high on his priority i don't
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let me go back to add really in london here it's speaking of the sea of. results you know i have read that the land council is proposing members of the atlantic council that the this should be militarized is that you know what nato should go in there it's a shallow sea then nato ships can't even navigate it maybe some dogs but i think it's like seven meters deep what are you going to do what kind of ship do you want to put in there i mean i guess if they want to do that then why shouldn't rush should be able to put its ships into lake michigan that's fair when you say go ahead. i mean what we can see a difference between the behavior of russia and america i think any any other country than russia if they would be attacked and program. you know constantly by so many western powers we would already have
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a nuclear holocaust in this planet are. full of you know praise for for president putin and for his administration that they. keep you know the on the ground i mean you know they are not willing to participate in this you know it is foreign policy movement this is the textbook study in patients to interested. patience and mary you know i said in my introduction. you know russia is the demonized and called aggressive when it defends its own sovereignty i think you know that's something the foreign policy blob with michael is right now they can never come to the conclusion they never can reflect upon that russia will do everything it can to protect its sovereignty and its demonized last word goes to you mary. yes well i mean i think there's an awful lot of misreading of russia's position. pretty much everything pretty much with the with the assumption
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that russia is aggressive rather than defensive and the motives a mis read because of that. but i also think that michael and both absolutely right when they say that both trump and putin. have really kept out of this latest flash or whatever they said has been very low key and designed to tone things down. and i think that means that water hopefully absolutely. but i think that that means that whatever. the rights and wrongs of may have happened the two big players in this are at the moment determine the shouldn't escalate into the also too much ok let's keep our fingers crossed that's a semi optimistic note here that's all the time we have here many thanks to my guests in london and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here
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at r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk. i want. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president i'm sure. want to be rich. but you going to be cross with what before three in the morning can't be good good i'm interested always in the waters of my college. course. that's good but it's a survival guide book stacie just like all the stored simply. resurfaced.
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the sure it's still there are you going to get it back. oh heck no good repatriations forget the rest of seventy years. philippa separate kaiser is worth. when a loved one is murder it's natural to seek the death penalty for the murder i would prefer it be in the death penalty just because i think that's the fair thing the right thing research shows that for every nine executions one convict is found innocent the idea that we were executing innocent people is terrifying news just knew it was present and that we're even many of the times families want the death penalty to be abolished the reason we have to keep the death penalty here is because that's what murder victims' families what that's going to give them peace it's going to give them justice and we come in and say. not quite enough we've been through this this isn't the way.
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thanks. for your time. us senators and demand an end to military support for saudi arabia in the long running at war in yemen. a lot of your foot and accuses ukraine's president of introducing martial law to boost his ratings ahead of the upcoming election and says the reasons to speak in the character of straight.


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