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tv   Worlds Apart  RT  June 26, 2022 9:30am-10:01am EDT

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ultimately, france was unable to put an end to the security problems associated with terrorism . as of now, the reason is completely abandoned in terms of joint military operations. since each army fights in isolation, without making efforts to harmonize and structure joined efforts to end the instability associated with terrorism, the current security situation is connected with withdraw the army of burkina faso with a termination of the joint military operation of molly in the air. as well as the unforeseen and uncoordinated withdrawal of french troops. and as a result of all this, this hell has become a very unstable region opened all kinds of hostilities. india is known for historically standing its own course, this by fierce opposition. so why do western leaders know, think there's an opportunity to sway new delhi towards their viewpoint worlds apart . delves into about right ahead ah, ah
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ah ah mm. mm. mm. mm. hello and welcome to wells far as one of the leaders of the indian national. when famously sad rhythm is not given. it's taken, including the freedom to charge your own course as a people or as a nation. but in the world of increasingly and deliberately segregated across political economic, cultural lines. what's the price of such freedom?
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well, to discuss that i'm now enjoying by ross again maharaj cheap, cheap director of the institute for economic research and innovation at twana university of technology in south africa. professor is great to welcome you here in russian. thank you very much for this opportunity to talk to you. thanks very much . i'm not sure that you to be here. now, i know that you were born in 1969 in this still a part faith rule. south africa. i heard you saying that in another interview that you almost feel historically lucky you have been born to have been brought into this world on the cost of an outgoing era. and that the dawn over of a new one. observing the latest developments in the world today, i wonder if you have the same feeling. well, we, we are seeing cycles in history repeating themselves in a big concern. is, are we as a species learning from what we are experiencing? it's so important, intergenerational that is encouraged because those lessons in fact hold all future
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and do you think we're learning? i'm concerned that i'm extremely conservative, but seriously when people are talking and trying to make sense of what's happening around the world, then some to fold into a sort of apocalyptic plan. others tend to be overly optimistic. i wonder where you place yourself and what would be, let's say the one thing that's where is he the most excited you the most about the current events. well, i think we for us to have a more realistic material optimist. we really have to explore the stuff that we really have to be absolutely convinced that we don't want to return to a pass that was about merrick. and if we agreed to the future holds many possibilities. so my optimism is based on my business. i know that to you for quite some time have been very critical of the economic system and in the world of the neo liberal system, which some could argue is also
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a system of privilege. pretty much like a par side. yes. to fighting which you gave many, many years of your life. and many of the people who have a stake in that system today aren't in that it needs to be reform. do you trust the intention to reform within them in a more balanced, fair way, or do you think they will try to sort of shape the process in a way that keeps serving them? so i think what history is also told us is germany tends to reproduce it and the ruling ideas, because if that have a tendency of placing themselves upon people, they bind people's rationality and then lock people into choices. so if you don't mind, i would encourage, rather than reforming the process, we need to transform. we need to actually embrace the fact that our challenges are bigger than what we've learned from the past and for the future that allows us to survive on the planet. we knew he didn't hear system all the evidence shows us, and it's most acutely brought home by vaccine partic. so why we thought we defeated
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the 994 to have seen what happened in the last 2 years. an entire continent was excluded from producing the vaccine on the basis that they did not hold intellectual property rights. now, in addition to call that we also now have the war in the ukraine of which at least here in russia, seen as a, as a much broader calls like than just the charity away taking place. and both of the calamities in a way of changing the system because they covet pandemic already rearranged the way global system economic system was functioning. we're in the ukraine and economic sanctions and counter sanctions are delivering even bigger shocks to that system. do you, how do you think that wealth will be able to absorb with and what kind of a world will we have after after it? so i think it's very important as your rates,
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those 2 issues are big issues for us. but we have to understand that the unit 30 should that's even bigger than those 2, which is the crisis of the treatment. and the ecology that we are inside. the resilience that we all need to be able to sustain ourselves from, demands and equitable sharing off especially knowledge resources and the tools to cope with what's happening outside. currently, if we accept the way in which the world is ordered, that is not something that's going to be deliver. it has to be, as you said initially taken, it has to be something to deliberately acted upon so that people both such resilience and resolve crisis. most of what we experienced today are the results of centuries of conflicts, but these contradictions come from a singular system. and it's incredible to believe at this point, the 21st century that people are willing to see us into catastrophe, rather than change the system that's driving us. but sometimes catastrophe is, i mean i look at what,
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what is happening right now is sometimes catastrophe is for is the change on the system itself. because i don't know if you visited divorce for the last couple of years. but they, they've been talking about the need to, you know, for more ethical dallas distribution as well for you know, decades on that. but it is only now that the, the system seems to be changing by itself because people never had enough results to do. i understand as you raise that in terms of the tools that we have available to us. so if we all only had hammers, every solution has to be a male. i think has a complex 8 loaded people. we have the opportunity to think of alternative ideas to resolve challenges, and the barbarism that we see around the world being predicated, a lot of fits originating in tahoe itself cannot be allowed to continue in that fall as you said. broken promises once, twice. but now off to decades, what we see is real lives that are last, look at the excess mortality out of cold,
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with the people's lives been ross in russia and elsewhere in africa. this continues on a daily basis. i really think we should have matured as a species to transcend those tools. we have more than have available to us. you mentioned suspicious, and i remember in one of your interviews, i think it was a couple of years ago in the midst of the comment pandemic that said that we as a spacious, where the thread is not on the national level, but really on a global level but nowadays everybody seems to have forgotten about not everybody, but many people seems to have forgotten about that thread. there is a thread over of a war in your screen right now. how dangerous it is in your do you think they're still under threat as, as a species? because in that calls like that is not only about the virus, but it's also about nuclear weapons. absolutely. collectively, we on the trips and the threats escalate to a big part of it is the way in which also information and knowledge is being restricted and constraints. the imposition of certain restrictions on the flow of
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information really needs to be content. it cannot be that the single narrative determines what's happening in the well, it's a connect of interested social enterprise. the more exchange of ideas, the better for all of us. and we really need to encourage that type of dialogue to be released. let's, let's engage in that dialogue, and if i may, i would ask for your unreserved opinion, because you are here in russia, but they were in ukraine. and this is what i want to ask you about. it isn't very difficult. the issue for the country because on the one hand, if they use a file and it's a normal loss or resources and human lives, both on both sides. what's on the other hand, i know that many people here see that as an ontological struggle in trouble for you being who you are and being true to your own path. for the right to develop according to, to, to your own, and descending on. who you are as a nation. now,
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i don't want to impose that. i knew i would like to have your opinion as somebody was included removed from the western perspective. there wasn't perspective, but can also be critical and objective to when it comes to russia. and so i think if we ask this question essentially, which is just a few years ago, it would have been fine using the tools that we had them violence being expressed for self determination struggles for national liberation, etc. but where we are today, we are enjoying in a much tighter in tried dependents. not interdependency. it's so finally interns personally. we have friends, we have family, we have people we work with in both actually retreat. yeah, i have relatives in the ukraine. that's actually every night and we have to ask ourselves in our families when we have conflicts, do we have to resolve it violently? weaver and we should be able to trumps in back. but then the powers that be in
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terms of well systems and not in favor of peaceful res solution. and that's so important that we continue to raise opportunities for peace. have been broached. in fact, people have closer to achieving. but that doesn't serve the interest of those that are profiting from what's happening and what needs to happen for all besides. and we, here, we have here at least 3 sides, russia, ukraine, the larger west to happen for all of them to have the motivation to have a realization that finding some sort of a peaceful solution with them better than having this kinetic conflict. if you don't mind, if i use the link with the party that you mentioned earlier, so for, for century south africa existed where people with black skins were considered sub it was a belief express legally. and because of that position, hierarchical was determined. and that way, today we would see what
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a ridiculous idea you scratch me, i believe the same to that's extensively. that's so much way of understanding. we need to push back against those interests that see profits over our lives itself and reconciling ourselves as possible but needs to be people to people. and we cannot achieve that unless we confront you called it the with. i would suggest being more specific in targeting, which is we are talking about. they are very particular transnational interest, most of them in fortune in countries, north america, europe. and those are the ones that are fostering the conflicts that are taking place. you mentioned that per se, then i think this sort of distinction exists even even among the so called white people. because within the larger western community, if i know that we the russians or if the new european in general have long been treated as some sort of barbarians. you know, who, you know,
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not knowledgeable enough to absorb all the closely civilized western values. and in your writing, you, you argue laws for sort of integrating localized indigenous knowledge into all sorts of political, economic, cultural thinking, understanding tradition, not putting it on the pedestal, but they're trying to integrate it within a geological thinking within the innovation. what is in the way of doing that because it's him so logical, you know, you don't have to be me, i don't have to be here. and yet this seems to be a very strong pressure to confine everybody to some sort of ideal that doesn't work. so that, so i think as you're pretty much in that way, the defense of the indefensible because that's exactly what we are confronted, needs to be confronted with the evidence itself. so when we saw initially conflict take place, there was a huge opening up in europe. refugees,
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welcome signs held up at the same time if that's happening and trains are being welcomed and people are dying and mediterranean, trying to cross over from africa. black students that were in these areas where the fewest exit. how is it possible that we continue on the space that it's not that everyone that was thought to be ukrainian was welcome to your professor. we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments station with me. a question of your mind you thought at home that you i mean you flee a little in a border with what you might look a do you live? most schools. if you look on the initial be one of club together. do you live post
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on the diaz can use the book value a new? what do you do ordering, but you also still listed on those a so much of the country book that i've got with you, but i see the student both. there's no group you motivation says decent, you gumbo sup ah, welcome back to was a part with arrest, a gun maharaja chief director of the institute for economic research on innovation . it's wanting university of technology in south africa because in my heart, before the break, we were talking about how unfair this world is. and one of the features of
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the current crisis is the fact that it's not only a russia and ukraine, the ones that are suffering, but many of the 3rd countries that have nothing to do with this part of the world in the global south. and that's primarily because of the use of unilateral use of extra territorial sanction. and if you look at it from an economic or survival perspective, russia large countries turn is still sufficient. i think the pain, but many of the developing countries on the other side of the world are pushed to the limit because of the galloping food in fuel prices. isn't that also a form of a car side? economic bar said when you make the decision for somebody else on the other side of the globe that they can take that pay. so i think as you 3 months, it's so important to realize if the system were to be applied shade it would apply to all including those that are imposing sanctions. well,
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they're suffering you. i'm in the price of gallon of gas and in the united states is increasing. but in comparable to the offense that it's having, let's say some people in africa that americans can take it as painful, but maybe i was framing it more in terms of the impact. so when you have a deliberate use a violence to fix different palestine that anywhere else in the world, we do not see the same imposition of sanctions against those involved in the conflict itself. the consequences, the nfl has collateral damage, but even for the collateral damage, we need to respond, which is the cause of this, what is driving these things forward. and in that context, if we had everyone belonging to a singular multilateral body, an international court for justice as an example, in the sanctions that flow from it should be based on the world of 8000000 people. not the waving flags that each other. so to ethics, and if we want fit outcomes and in economic system of sanctions against ever and
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behavior, it has to apply to everyone. they cannot be singular that certain countries have opportunity to utilize it. and others just the victims off the point about africa and the consequences of the conflicts taking place as well. this is followed centuries of marginalisation. and to that extent, africa itself needs to pick itself to that extent, africa has to develop the type of resilience that you say russia currently. and there's a lot more that africa itself must go into to redress some of its and not to be as dependent as it remains to be in will system. but you know, there are a couple of examples in africa, lead being, being one of them. and i'm not trying to defend the good after regime, but i wasn't that country for many years prior to that conflict and it was relatively well off. certainly they were fair criticism how it was managed, but it was one of the richest then i would say most generous countries on the continent and lucas all reduced to a big slave market. do you think your content,
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which has been a source of material? well, here for a significant part of this was, do you think it would be allowed to charges force him to stand on his own fees to you know, help on that? so as you raise it's in that way, it's so important for us to realize what is the norm. that's b as fi it towards. if africa continues to believe it is catching up with a western mode, a variety of capitalism as a courtesy of teams. it has no hope because those ahead constantly put in place obstacles towards achieving that state of africa really needs to reconcile itself to it's people. 1.3, bowie and people live in such conditions that you mention. and we cannot afford more international intervention in africa. it must be, as africans, libya was a key sponsor of the african union, besides south africa contributing financially tool. and that's why in terms of now,
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we need to be really concerned that the agenda of the african union becomes driven by donors as the subscribing members who are african themselves. now let me broaden our discussion a little bit here because we're recording this conversation on the sidelines of the st. petersburg economic form. and it's become a tradition here as you have some sort of a panel on the bricks, countries, rozelle, russia, india, china, and south africa as well as some observing members. and it's true that they have enormous human and economic potential, but compared to the consolidation and integration of the west that i think that synergies remain in a somewhat latent form to put the diplomatically, what do you think prevents all those countries who have a lot to contribute to the international system from, you know, using the organization better or more efficiently. so i think as we understand
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bricks, it's important for us to look beyond just the little competitive we have talking off, nearly 2 thirds of human being contained inside such a congregation. and we need to ask ourselves that relationship between back the number of people and the states that represent the point i want to make is cleared the internal contradictions within each of the 5 countries as they exist. some countries have managed to rent manage those contradictions better than others. it has have them and externals below, because of also the actions what is taking place in brazil. what's currently happening in india. i think that should have the concern for all of humanity, but especially the bricks or maybe we on thing as much attention to exactly those internal contradictions. the potential exists, but it's people to people for potential. and we need to exploit more than just seeing it as states entry and leaving it or talking to site on this. now,
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one of the things that i here here in russia often is that for to become truly meaningful. it needs to develop not just mutual trade, but try to come up with a new socio economic system that would better integrate the best practices of the member space. especially when it comes to sort of limiting the excesses of capitalism and expanding the public goods failed. do you think that's an talk? yeah, well, utopia is remain utopia is until we base them in material realities. and what we have available to us are the conditions that demand such solutions. it's really a question of whether the countries themselves. so if we use by example, china has been able to recognize some of these challenges and has absorbed into its domestic agenda. so we can learn from china to that extent we have different systems, different cultures to other points are quite critical invoice and that's the
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narrative, the formation of the thought on the logical aspect around picks itself. if we link it more to the non aligned movements with respect to the polls and look at the theory of post that is even better opportunities that spring from a 3rd aspect is actually deep kaloni ality and d colonization. our colonial mental structures are main preference and we see it's on around us to civilizational states, a part of itself. we have so much to learn in terms of that system, a site that has removed it from dominant point. if we return to the we have much better potential rethinking the world, our place in it, and in relation to the future, aspiration was more ecologically sustainable. i know that you have a great passion for public goods, and i wonder how far down the social isn't have you're willing to take it because i read somewhere that as a kid you're,
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we're an avid consumer of marks and lennon. do you think someone discredited thinkers can still offer anything for the said bill, there's not in that form that has been tried before, but perhaps in terms of ideas or in terms of values. so i think an enduring value, particularly of linen in this context, was the ability to translate ideas into practice found in the context of time in which those ideas arose. it was appropriate and we saw a massive move form in terms of the progress of humanity as well, but the as a significant cost as well when, but that was over time and over time systems, if they refuse the dynamic system that allows people participation as soon as that gets encroached upon and restricted the possibilities of remaining creator, dynamic and finding a futures gets constrained. so i think to that extent it would be inappropriate to
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bring linen from $970.00 and into 2022. it is appropriate. no. it was the live it talk to us, the ideas that we've drawn from a to bring it into practice. i would not advocate the type of state lead system that existed previously. because what we have available to us today, 5 steps one was available. the means of communication integration globally, that allows us to bring about change much more rapidly. we're not tools that you printed out on the flip and distributed. it's not support for so having these opportunities, i think creative, and especially in the younger generation. those 25 years younger, the possibilities without is a is so important. and we shouldn't then constrain if we're willing to say, as you say, maybe some hold the view in russia that socialism is a failure at the many that hold a view that capitalism is a failure. i know from my personal experience in south africa,
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that there are many people who share bluffton idea. where do you think the, where do you think the country will move now, after having very hard experience with at least in terms of the public health care . so specifically in south africa has proposed putting in place the national health insurance system. it's a concern for us. it isn't the full solution. what we need is good quality health care available tool and object use and it's part of the reform agenda not transform is how to make the system into one that allows for private participation. but this process is opening up. and as we start implementing the national health insurance, which is already policy, we will start seeing the elements of a national health system emerge from it. and the national health system ultimately is about health, not about mit. and that's also quite critically important. it's a different way of thinking. we remove the sources of health. i think of putting
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a human in the center awesome rather than the material in 2 years. and the prophecy arise from another aspect with south africa, less the question of philanthropy. and whether we can expect private donations. and this is really what's troubled all of africa with vaccines as opposed to we can talk about distribution now distribution. but if you don't produce something, what, what do you have to ship? so to that extent, having productive capabilities remains important and even in how we need to bring indigenous into and traditional ways of thinking about health, about, well, be back into such discussions itself. and i guess that would apply not only for africa or south africa in particular, but for the rest of the world because in each individual countries we are dealing with pretty much the same challenges. but we are dealing with them in a different point. and i think these are going to accelerate really because of
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climate change and the rapid pace of which that's happening. we as societies have evolved and emerged within particular geographic territories. we have come to understand how best to cope within those territory. that's the knowledge is that have been excluded. and we now norm to, as you said, the north american model of how the bricks have discussed welby reports were produced, but none of this because it didn't have a narrow economic perspective gained currency. so the odd discussions such as that, and i was so impressed when i listened to rushes presentation. i didn't think that they had such a well of indigenous knowledge in the northern territories, the eastern territories that are incorporated i alternately about the valley in your own experience, bad and good experience and being able to analyze it rather than looking at some distance star and believing that your only goal is to be like someone else. yeah,
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i think that's the crux of the matter to be like someone else know that a full, you know, for us each one of us is an individual, but we co exist on the planet with other life forms. and to that extent, that's we're indigenous knowledge is so important over synch over millennia, we as a species have managed to cope with our environment in interaction with others. that's not the norm today. how well indigenous and global ultimately no, it's a parent, but it's a parent. those are going to work. well, we have to leave it there. thank you for these very interesting discussion. and so the challenge of christians as well. thank you for watching hope to see her again and will depart with mm
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ah ah, russian led forces events in dallas, securing the strategic city of several the net it had been a key stronghold of we have truth in the lives galsen republican also ahead if they need to establish something like this, a command center. any place is good enough. even the cemetery are t visits heavily fortified positions of funding, bobby ukrainian army near the turn of a russian allied forces, continued the mining territories captured from the premium troops. violence protest this g 7 leaders.


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