i it does, it, would it does it for me this hour? i will be back, let's say in 30 minutes with another full and fresh with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic and development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with

ah mm mm mm. mm. hello and welcome to was a part as one of the leaders of the indian national lumen famously sad rhythm is not given. it's taken, including the freedom to charge your own course as a people or as a nation. but in the world, us increasingly and deliberately segregated across political economic cultural lines was the price of such freedom. well, to discuss that, i'm now enjoying by ross again my fresh, cheap,

cheap director of the institute for economic research and innovation at one a university of technology in south africa. professor is great to welcome you here in russian. thank you very much for this opportunity to talk to you. thanks very much. i'm not sure that you to be here. now i know that you were born in 1969 in this still a party, it's ruled south africa and i heard you saying that in another interview that you almost feel historically lucky. you have been born to have been brought into this world on the cost of an outgoing era. and that the dawn over of a new one. observing the latest developments in the world today. i wonder if you have the same feeling. well, we, we are seeing cycles in history repeating themselves. and a big concern is, are we as a species to learning from what we are experiencing? it's so important, intergenerational that is encouraged because those lessons in fact hold all future and do you think we're learning? i'm concerned, i am extremely concerned about it, but seriously,

when people are talking and trying to make sense of what's happening around the world, then some to fold into a sort of apocalyptic plan. others tend to be overly optimistic. i wonder where you place yourself and what would be, let's say, the one thing that's where is he the most and that excites you the most about the current events. well, i think we, for us to have a more realistic material optimist. we really have to explore the depths of the prism as we really have to be absolutely convinced that we don't want to return to a pass that was barbaric. and if we agreed to the future holds many possibilities. so my optimism is based on my business. i know that you, for quite some time have been very critical of the economic system and in the world of the neo liberal system, which some could argue is also a system of privilege. pretty much like a par side. yes. to fighting which you gave many,

many years of your life. and many of the people who have a stake in that system today aren't in that it needs to be reform. do you trust the intention to reform within them in a more balanced, fair way, or do you think they will try to sort of shape the process in a way that keeps serving them? so i think what history is also told us is he gemini, tends to reproduce it, and the ruling ideas because of that have a tendency of placing themselves upon people. they bind people's rationality and then lock people into choices. so if you don't mind, i would encourage rather than reforming the other process, we need to transform. we need to actually embrace the fact that our challenges are bigger than what we've learned from the past and for the future that allows us to survive on the planet. we knew he didn't, his sister. all the evidence shows us. and it's most acutely brought home by vaccine, the partic, so what we thought we defeated the party in 1994 to have seen what happened in the

last 2 years. an entire continent was excluded from producing the vaccine on the basis that they did not hold intellectual property rights. now, in addition to call it, they also now have the war in your crane, which at least here in russia as, as a much broader conflict than just the charity re way taking place. and both of these calamities in a way and changing the system because they're covered from damage to radio, rearrange the way global system economic system was functioning. we're in the ukraine and the economic sanctions and counter sanctions and delivering even bigger shops to that system. do you, how do you think the world will be able to absorb it and what kind of worlds will we have after after it? so i think it's very important as you raise those 2 issues are big issues for us. but we have to understand that in a 30 should, that even bigger than those 2,

which is the crisis of the treatment. and the ecology that we are inside. the resilience that we all need to be able to sustain ourselves from that demands and equitable sharing off especially knowledge resources and the tools to cope with what's happening outside. currently, if we accept the way in which the world is ordered, that is not something that's going to be delivered. it has to be, as you said initially taken, it has to be something deliberately acted upon so that people both such resilience and resolve crisis. most of what we experience today are the result of centuries of conflicts, but these contradictions come from a thing in the system. and it's incredible to believe at this point, the 21st century that people are willing to see us into a catastrophe, rather than change the system that's driving has spent some time. catastrophe is, i mean, look at what, what is happening right now. sometimes catastrophe is for the change on the system itself because i don't know if you visited was for the last couple of years. but

they, they've been talking about the need to, you know, for more ethical, you know, dallas distribution as well for, you know, decades on that. but it is only now that the, the system seems to be changing by itself because people never had enough results to do. i understand as you raise that in terms of the tools that we have available to us. so if we all only had hammers, every solution has to be a male. i think because of conflicts 8 lillian people, we have the opportunity to think of alternative ideas to resolve challenges and the barbarism that we see around the world being predicate a lot of fits originating and fabulous itself, cannot be allowed to continue in that fall. as you said, broken promises once twice, but now off to decades, what we see is real lives that are last, look at the excess mortality out of cold, with the people's lives been ross in russia and elsewhere in africa. this continues on a daily basis. i really think we should have matured as

a species to transcend those tools we have more than have most available to us. you mentioned suspicious, and i remember in one of your interviews, i think it was a couple of years ago in the midst of the comment pandemic who said that we as a spacious, where fred, it's not on the national level, but really a global level. but nowadays everybody seems to have forgotten about not everybody, but many people seems to have forgotten about that thread. there is a thread over of a war in your screen right now. how dangerous it is in your view, do you think they're still under threat as, as a species? because in that conflict, it's not only about the virus, but it's also about nuclear weapons. absolutely. collective the we on the trips and the threats escalate to a big part of it is the way in which also information and knowledge being restricted and constraints. the imposition of certain restrictions on the flow of information really needs to be content. it cannot be that

a single narrative determines what's happening in the well, it's a connect of interested social enterprise. the more exchange of ideas, the better for all of us. and we really need to encourage that type of dialogue to be traced. let's. let's engage in that dialogue, and if i may, i would ask for your unreserved opinion, because you are here in russia, but they were in ukraine. and this is what i want to ask you about. it is a very difficult issue for this country because on the one hand, it's the use of violence. it's a norm, it's lost all resources and human lives, both on both sides. but on the other hand, i know that many people here see that as an ontological struggle in trouble for you being who you are and being true to your own path. for the right to develop according to, to your own, and descending off. who you are as a nation. now i don't want to impose that. i knew i would like have your opinion as

somebody who is equally removed from the western perspective and critical of the western perspective. but can also be critical and objective to when it comes to rushes. and so i think if we asked this question a century ago, which is just a few years, it would have been fine using the tools that we had, the violence being expressed for self determination struggles for national liberation, etc. but where we are today, we are enjoined in a much tight in tribe dependence, not to interdependency. it's so finally into us personally, we have friends, we have family, we have people we work with in both actually retreats. yeah, i have relatives in the ukraine. that's exactly, i mean i and we have to ask ourselves in our families when we have conflicts, do we have to resolve it violently later? and we should be able to transcend that. but then the powers that be in terms of world systems are not in favor of peaceful resolution. and that's so important that

we continue to raise that opportunities for peace have been broached. in fact, people have gotten closer to achieving, but that doesn't serve the interests of those that are profiting from what's happening and what needs to happen for old besides. and we here we have here at least 3 sides, russia, ukraine, and the larger west. what needs to happen for all of them to have the motivation to have a realization that finding some sort of a peaceful solution of what's to them better than having this kinetic conflict. but if you don't mind, if i look, use the link with the party that you had mentioned earlier. so for, for centuries, south africa existed. we have people with black skins were considered sub q. it was beneath expressed in egan. and because of that, the position hierarchical was determined and that way today we would see what a ridiculous idea you scratch me. i believe the same to that extent, believe that so much way of understanding we need to push back against those

interests that see profits over our lives itself. reconciling ourselves is possible with needs to be people to people. and we cannot achieve that unless we confront you called it the with i would suggest being more specific in targeting, which is we are talking about. they are very particular trans national interest, most of them in for, to, in countries multi america, europe. and those are the ones that are fostering the conflicts that are taking place. and you mentioned that per se, then i think this sort of distinction exists even, even among the so called white people. because within the larger western community, if i know that we the russians or if the new european in general have long been treated as some sort of their barriers. you know, you know, not knowledgeable enough to absorb all the close of the civilized and western values. and in your writing, you, you argue

a lot for sort of integrating localized indigenous knowledge into all sorts of political, economic, cultural thinking, understanding tradition, not putting it on the pedestal, but trying to integrated within a geological thinking within the innovation. what is in the way of doing that because it's him so logical, you know, you don't have to be me. i don't have to be here. and there seems to be a very strong pressure to confine everybody to some sort of ideal. that doesn't work. so i think as your payments in that way, the defense of the indefensible because that's exactly what we are confronted, needs to be confronted with the evidence itself. so when we saw initially conflict take place, there was a huge opening up in europe. refugees, welcome signs held up at the same time if that's happening and trains are being welcomed and people are dying and mediterranean,

trying to cross over from africa. black students that were in these areas were refused exit. how is it possible that we continue on the space of it's not everyone that was thought to be ukrainian was welcomed in europe. professor, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will get back in just a few moments station. ah

ah welcome back to was a part with arrest a gun maharaja chief director of the institute for economic research on innovation at swanner university of technology in south africa. professor my heart before the break, we were talking about how unfair this world is. and one of the features of the current crisis is the fact that it's not only a russia and ukraine and the ones that are suffering. but many of the 3rd countries that have absolutely nothing to do in this part of the world in the global south. and that's primarily because of the use of unilateral use of extra

tutorial sanctions. and if you look at it from an economic or survival perspective, russia is a large country, it's fairly self sufficient that i think you can absorb the pain. but many of the developing countries on the other side of the world are pushed to the limit because of the galloping food and fuel crisis. isn't that also a form of apartheid economic birthday? when you make the decision for somebody else on the other side of the globe that they can take that pain. so i think as you're pretty much it, so it's so important to realize if the system were to be applied fit it would apply to for including those that are imposing sanctions. well, they are suffering you. i'm in the price of gallon of gas and be in the united states is increasing, but it's in comparable to the fact that it's having, let's say some people in, in africa that americans can take it as painful. but maybe i was framing it more in terms of the impact. so when you have

a deliberate use violence to fix that different palestine that anywhere else in the world, we do not see the same imposition of sanctions against those involved in your conflict itself. the consequences, the nfl has collateral damage, but even for the collateral damage, we need to respond, which is the cause of this, what is driving these things forward. and in that context, if we had everyone belonging to a singular multilateral body, an international court for justice as an example, in the sanctions that flow fund that should be based on the will of 8000000 people, not the waving flags at each other. so to that extent, if we one fear outcomes and in economic system of sanctions against ever and behavior, it has to apply to everyone. they cannot be singular that certain countries have the opportunity to utilize. and others are just the victims of the point about africa and the consequences of the conflicts taking place as well. this is for those centuries of marginalization and to that extent,

africa itself needs to pick itself. to that extent, africa has to develop the type of resilience that you say russia has currently. and there's a lot more that africa itself and still internally to redress some of its and not to be as dependent as it remains to be stuck with. you know, there are a couple of examples in africa, lead being one of them. and i'm not trying to defend the good after regime, but i wasn't the country for many years prior to that conflict and it was relatively well off. certainly there were fair criticisms, how it was managed, but it was one of the which is then i would say, most generous countries on the continent. then lucas overdues to a big slave market. do you think your continent, which has been a source of material? well, here for a significant part of this was, do you think it would be allowed to charge this course and to stand on its own fees to you know, help on that?

so as you raise it in that way, it's so important for us to realize what is the norm. that's b as fi it towards. africa continues to believe it is catching up with a western mode, a variety of capitalism as a courtesy of teams. it has no hope because those ahead constantly put in place obstacles towards achieving that state of africa really needs to reconcile itself to it's people. 1.3. 0 yeah. and people live in such conditions that you mention and we cannot afford more international intervention in africa. it must be as africans, it's libya was a key sponsor of the african union besides south africa contributing financially tool. and that's why in terms of now, you need to be really concerned that the agenda of african becomes driven by donors and not by the subscribing members who are african themselves. now let me broaden our discussion a little bit here because we are recording this conversation on the sidelines of

the st. petersburg. economic form is become a tradition here. you have some sort of a panel on the bricks countries, rozelle, russia, india, china, and south africa as well as some observing members. and it's true that they have enormous human and economic potential, but compared to the consolidation and integration of the west that i think that synergies remain in a somewhat latent form to put the diplomatically, what do you think prevents all those countries who have a lot to contribute to the international system from, you know, using the organisation better or more efficiently. so i think as we understand bricks, it's important for us to look beyond just the letters a comparison. we have talking off nearly 2 thirds of human being contained inside such accommodations. and we need to ask ourselves, the relationship between that number of people and the states that representing the

point i want to make is clear. they are internal contradictions within each of the 5 countries as they exist. some countries have managed to ment, manage those contradictions better than others. it has have them and externals below because of also the actions what is taking place in brazil. what's currently happening in india. i think that should have the concern of all of humanity, but especially the bricks. and maybe we aren't paying as much attention to exactly those internal contradictions. the potential exists, but it's people to people that potential. and we need to exploit death more than just seeing it as states in tree and leaving it or talking to site on this. now, one of the things that i here here in russia often is that for breaks to become truly meaningful, it needs to develop not just mutual trade, but try to come up with a new socioeconomic system that would better integrate the best practices of the

member states. especially when it comes to sort of limiting the excess of capitalism and expanding the public goods failed. do you think that's an untold pan? yeah. well, utopia has remained utopias until we base them in material realities and what we have available to us out of the conditions that demands such solutions. it's really a question of whether the countries themselves. so if we use, by example, china has been able to recognize some of these challenges and has absorbed into its domestic agenda. and so we can learn from trying to that extent we have different systems, different cultures to other points of quite critical inputs. and that's the narrative, the formation of the thought on the logical aspect around picks itself. if we link it more to the non aligned movement with respect to the polls and look at the period post, that is even better opportunities that spring from

a 3rd aspect is actually deep kaloni ality and d colonization. our colonial mental structures remain preference and we see it's on or around us to civilization. all states are part of itself. we have so much to learn in terms of that system that has removed it from dominant point. if we return to the we have much better potential rethinking the world, our place in that and in relation to the future, aspiration was more ecological sustain. i know that you have a great passion for public goods, and i wonder how far down the social isn't pap. you're willing to take it because i read somewhere. as a kid, you're an avid consumer of marks and lennon. do you think those someone discredited thinkers can still offer it anything for the said bill, there's not in that form that has been tried before, but perhaps in terms of ideas or in terms of values. so i think an enduring value,

particularly of linen in this context, was the ability to translate ideas into practice found in the context of time in which those ideas arose. it was appropriate and we saw a massive move form in terms of the progress of humanity is found, but the, at a significant cost as well. but that was over time. and over time systems, if they refuse the dynamic system that allows people participation as soon as that gets encroached upon and restricted the possibilities of remaining creator, dynamic and finding, it just gets constrained. so i think to that extent it would be inappropriate to bring linen from $970.00 and into 20. 22 is the appropriate note is animals live. it's up to us, the ideas that withdrawn from it to bring it into practice. i would not advocate the type of state lives system that existed previously because what we have

available to us today, 5 steps one was available. the means of communication integration globally. that allows us to bring about change much more rapidly. we're not tools that you printed out on a little leaflet and distributed and not support for. so having these opportunities, i think, creative, and especially in the younger generation, those 25 years younger. the possibilities without is a is so important. and we shouldn't then constrain if we're willing to say, as you said, maybe some hold the view in russia that socialism is a failure at the many that hold the view that capitalism is a failure. i know from my personal experience in south africa, that there are many people who share bluffton idea. where do you think the, where do you think the country will move now, after having this very hard experience with at least in terms of the public health

care. so specifically in south africa has proposed putting in place the national health insurance system. it's a concern for us. it isn't the full solution. what we need is good quality health care available tool and object use and it's part of the reform agenda not transform is how to make the system into one that allows for private participation. but this process is opening up. and as we start implementing the national health insurance, which is already policy, we will start seeing the elements of the national health system emerge from it. and the national health system ultimately is about health to both nets. and that's also quite critically important. it's a different way of thinking. we remove the sources of health, i think putting a human in the center awesome rather than the material in 2 years. and the prophecy arise from another aspect with south africa, less the question of philanthropy, and whether we can expect private donations. and this is really what's troubled all

of africa with vaccines as opposed to we can talk about distribution now distribution. but if you don't produce something, what, what do you have to ship? so to that extent, having productive capabilities remains important. and even in how we need to bring indigenous into and traditional ways of thinking about how about, well, be back into such discussions itself. and i guess that would apply not only for africa or south africa in particular, but for the rest of the world because in each individual countries we are dealing with pretty much the same challenges. but we are dealing with them in a different way. and i think these are going to accelerate really because of climate change and the rapid pace of which that's happening. if we as societies have evolved and emerged within particular geographic territories, we have come to understand how best to cope within those territory. that's the

knowledge is that have been excluded. and we now norm to, as you said, a north american model of the bricks have discussed, well, be reports are produced. but none of this because it didn't have a narrow economic perspective gained currency. so they are discussion such as that, and i was so impressed when i listen to russia presentation. i didn't think that they had such a well of indigenous knowledge in the northern territory as the eastern territories that are incorporated ultimately about value in your own experience. bad and good experience and being able to analyze it rather than looking at some distance, the living dead, the only goal is to be like someone else. yeah. i think that's the crux of the matter to be like someone else know they're a failure. no. each one of us is an individual, but we co exist on the planet with other life forms. and to that extent that's we. indigenous knowledge is so important over century, over millennia. we as

a species have managed to cope with our environment in interaction with others. that's not the norm today. now. well, indigenous and global. ultimately, no, it's a paradox, but it's part of that going to work. well, we have to leave it there. thank you for these very interesting discussion. and so the challenge a christian as well. thank you for watching hope to hear again well the part with . mm hm. with

that's what excites the leaders of g 7. not some crowds of protesters who demand they stop rearming and resolve social issues. the west latest attempt to destroy moscow's economy, russia gold worth around $19000000000.00 a year in exports. now a sanctioned target. ah, and an abundance of native weapons and.